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From Inside Law School to Inside Baseball, with Katie Pothier RLAW'92
26 Plays10 months ago
Katie Pothier RLAW'92 joins Dean Bond to share the story of her journey through law school to her current role as Executive Vice President & Chief Legal Officer of the New York Mets.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and dean of the law school, Joanna Bond.
00:00:23
Speaker
It's my great pleasure today to host Katie Pothier, the Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer of the Mets. Hi, Katie, thanks so much for joining us. Hi, nice to be here, Joanna. Well, so one thing I want to note at the outset is you and I have something in common. We're both Jersey girls. I grew up in Bergen County, so where in New Jersey did you grow up? I grew up in Middlesex County. Okay, fantastic. Fantastic. Well, tell us a little bit about your origin story.
Education and Career Beginnings
00:00:52
Speaker
So born and raised in Jersey, fellow Jersey girl. I was, you know, I grew up in central New Jersey, I said, Somerset County. All through my life, I was there. And then off to college, when I graduated law school, I did a clerkship in Camden.
00:01:16
Speaker
And then soon after that followed my husband to San Diego and the rest of my family has long unfortunately left New Jersey, although we did go back for a Jersey Shore family reunion.
00:01:31
Speaker
That's great. A few years ago, so yes. That's fantastic. Yes, I know I'm familiar with that phenomenon. My family has left too, but I have since dragged my kids back to our favorite pizza place when I was growing up and the whole nostalgia tour. Yes, you can get pizza by the slice. There was not a thing in their youth in San Diego or now in Texas. I'm sure. Yep. That's great.
00:01:58
Speaker
So tell me a little bit about why you decided to go to law school generally. And also why did you pick Rutgers specifically? So I was an undergrad at Rutgers. I went to Douglas College. And so Rutgers was, it was a great experience. I mean, I, I enjoyed Rutgers. I enjoyed my time at Douglas. My father was a graduate of Rutgers Law School.
00:02:24
Speaker
in Newark. And I honestly, I never really considered another place. I didn't think I was going to leave the Northeast. And so it had that going for it. And Rutgers was really the best option for me. And, and I hadn't been to Camden until I arrived there to move in. So yeah, so, you know, when I say, I mean, your
00:02:53
Speaker
I don't know what it was like when you were young, but you stayed in your town, you ventured down to the Jersey Shore, occasional visit to the city, as we called it, because there was no other city on the planet, and an occasional visit to Philadelphia, but I had not actually spent any time in Camden until I moved in.
00:03:15
Speaker
Oh, that's great. Fantastic. Well, so let's do a softball round robin because I do have some questions about your experience at law school and in Camden.
Academic Influences and Real Estate Work
00:03:24
Speaker
So what was your favorite and least favorite class in law school?
00:03:30
Speaker
All right, so I enjoyed civil procedure. People are going to want to just kill me for saying that. And it could have been the professor that I had at the time. I was trying to remember before this conversation who that was. It could have been Professor Stein, but I'm not positive. And I also enjoyed tax.
00:03:54
Speaker
Oh, that's great. Yeah, I also enjoy tax. Again, I don't know why. I think a lot of it I attribute to the professors, frankly. I think that really enhanced the experience for me when I was in the classroom, kind of looking back at my time there. My least favorite is really ironic, because I tell people this, I really did not like property. And I
00:04:20
Speaker
probably do as a baseball lawyer. The biggest projects I've done have been stadium and multi-use developments. So the irony there is that I'm a reluctant real estate lawyer with posing as a sports lawyer really. But that's the irony of that. I did not enjoy property. I didn't either. That was probably my least favorite too.
00:04:50
Speaker
That's great. And what about favorite place to eat around the law school in Camden?
00:04:55
Speaker
Do you remember anything in particular? I remember the grease truck. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a grease truck that was always parked next to the law school. There was a parking lot there at the time, which I'm not sure is even still there. I'm sure it's probably well developed by now, but that's where we went. We all went out to the grease truck. It's hilarious. And what kind of food was it?
00:05:23
Speaker
you know, I want to say it was your normal kind of street food. And then sandwiches, like lots of sandwiches, but there were those Philadelphia pretzels too, which anybody that's been in Philadelphia, you can get those pretzels. And I was
00:05:40
Speaker
I'll say mildly addicted to those when I was in law school. Right. And it's actually hard to get a really good pretzel outside of Philadelphia or New York. Yes, you're right. You're right.
Exploration and Skills Developed
00:05:51
Speaker
Well, what about favorite place in Camden? What did you do? Where did you explore when you were not at the law school? So I externed for a magistrate judge at the courthouse. And it was the post office building. This is the old courthouse, not the new federal courthouse.
00:06:10
Speaker
And the place I think I explored most was the Benjamin Franklin Bridge. I wasn't a runner or anything like that. But when I got to law school, my roommate at the time enjoyed running. So I kind of took up
00:06:26
Speaker
running, I'll call it jogging more than running. But the run across the bridge was always a highlight. That was fun, running into Philadelphia and either turning around and heading back or if we had time in our day and the stamina, just exploring the waterfront there.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds great. One of my colleagues in student affairs, Lou Thompson, walks that bridge every day back and forth. And he loves it, too. It's a way to start and end the day. It was an everyday thing. Yeah. And what about the most important thing you learned at Rutgers Law? Is there anything in particular that you feel like set you up for success as a lawyer? Well, I learned how to play squash.
00:07:12
Speaker
at Rutgers Law School. I don't know that that set me up for success, and I can't remember the professor, but there was a professor at the time who was just an avid squash player and fan, and tended to encourage the students to go and play at the squash courts that they had at the athletic facility in Camden.
00:07:34
Speaker
And so I like, I think a few of the folks that I went to school with played for probably the first time squash, so squash. But short of that, academically, I learned how to write in law school. I don't think even though I was a history major undergrad, and virtually everything I did as an undergrad was reading and writing, I really honed my legal writing skills.
00:08:03
Speaker
in law school and so I attribute that really to the school my experience there and again my clerkship after my first year of law school for that same magistrate judge who I ended up
00:08:19
Speaker
clerking for. He taught me how to write. That's fantastic. Well, Rutgers Law is known for its writing program, and I think with good reason. But I always tell students, I think that writing is the most important thing we teach them in law school.
00:08:34
Speaker
I couldn't agree more. And I think it's somewhat of a dying art. And it's something I value when I hire lawyers or anybody. The ability to communicate and write. And writing is a form of communication. It's the form of communication really for lawyers ahead of their oral advocacy. And so I think it's truly important. Couldn't agree more.
00:09:05
Speaker
Well, so you may have just answered this next question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What at Rutgers Law prepared you for a career in baseball or sports law more generally?
Transition to Baseball and Current Role
00:09:18
Speaker
So when I went to Rutgers, there was not a sports law class. I didn't know these jobs existed. And so if I were to think back about what Rutgers did to prepare me, I think
00:09:31
Speaker
Looking at baseball, I mean, people who love baseball know it's highly evidence-based and data-driven and extremely analytical. In law school, you learn how to discern facts, like what are facts? What are the real facts? What are other facts? What are opinions, right? And get to evidence because you know, ultimately, that's going to be important in making decisions.
00:09:58
Speaker
or your outcome or recommendations. And so I think that part of the whole law school experience absolutely contributes to my preparation for a career in baseball. The other thing is, at least in my role as kind of the head of legal, I'm really the ultimate generalist.
00:10:27
Speaker
what I need to do virtually every day is issue spot. That's what I do. I can't, I'm not gonna know everything about every topic, but I should know enough to say there may be an issue here and let's take this offline and let's look at this a little deeper and unpack it a little more and I know who to call. So I think the issue spotting
00:10:55
Speaker
has really helped as a generalist in my role right now. That's fantastic. I know if there's anyone else listening right now, they will appreciate the fact that those skills that they're developing and issue spotting are actually really helpful in the practice of law. They actually really are. That's like 90% of what I do is say, wait a minute. Let's make sure that's something that we need to look in further, or is that OK, or blah, blah, blah. So yes.
00:11:24
Speaker
Fantastic. And how did you end up in the legal field of baseball? Can you tell us a little bit more about that part of your trajectory? So for anyone listening who wants a career in baseball, this is just going to upset them. But I'm happy to tell the story. So I started when I first started practicing law, I was at an insurance defense firm. And then I went over to a white collar criminal defense firm.
00:11:53
Speaker
And it was actually in my role as a white collar criminal defense attorney that I got my big break into baseball, which doesn't make any sense. But I was at work one day and one of the partners came in and said, you know, hey, Katie, do you like baseball? And I'm thinking he's going to ask me if I want to use his tickets. And when I say yes, he's like, great, we have a meeting with the owner of the San Diego Padres and their GC.
00:12:22
Speaker
They want to interview us to potentially retain them. And so I'm going to unassociate and I'm all excited geared up and get ready. It was a grand jury, a criminal grand jury investigation. There were allegations that, um, the team had done something improper to influence a vote that was before city council in order to secure, um, the approval for a new stadium.
00:12:50
Speaker
And interesting. So that was my introduction to baseball. That's where I got to meet, you know, the GC of the Padres and the owner. And so I worked on that case and worked really hard. As you can imagine, anybody listens who does criminal defense work and preparing witnesses to appear before the grand jury.
00:13:12
Speaker
doing other investigation, research, all of that. It was all a nothing sandwich and it concluded. And after it concluded, the general counsel for the Padres was promoted to president because that's what happens when you resolve something like that. And I was reading this in the paper back when there were newspapers that people read and not on Twitter.
00:13:39
Speaker
And joking with my husband, you know, so-and-so was promoted, I should call him and see if he needs a GC. And my husband's like, you absolutely should.
00:13:48
Speaker
I'm like, what on earth do I know about being the general counsel of the baseball team? And he's like, you could totally do it. You should absolutely call him. Like, how hard can it be? How hard can it be? Right. No, that's brilliant. How hard can it be? So with my husband's great encouragement, I mustered up the courage to call him and congratulate him on his promotion and ask him what he was going to do.
00:14:15
Speaker
And if there was going to be a replacement to let him know I was interested. And to my surprise, he said, that's a great idea. But we don't know if we're going to have funding for a new ballpark yet. So let's sort that out and let's just keep in touch. And a year went by and kept in touch here and there, but didn't really hear from him. He was a Yale Law School grad. And I remember seeing that he had
00:14:42
Speaker
been working with some other Yale lawyers on some projects during that time and saying to my husband, they're not going to take a girl from Jersey who went to Rutgers. Like they've got the Yale people, just relax. And then out of the blue, I got a call from him and he said, are you still interested? And I said, absolutely. And we met for lunch and that's how it started. I was at the time pregnant with my first daughter, my daughter.
00:15:10
Speaker
and my first child and I remember telling him, listen, there's one thing I want to make sure you know, I'm pregnant and she's due around opening day. You know, is that a problem? Right. And he was like, he was like, do you plan on working afterwards? I'm like, yes, absolutely. He goes, no, that's fine. Let's have one. Excellent. And that was it. I love it. That's such a great story. Right. So I meet students all the time who are like, how do you break in? How do you break in? And I tell that story and I'm like,
00:15:39
Speaker
This is not the traditional way of breaking in, but this was how I got introduced to it, and I honestly didn't even know these jobs existed until I started working for the team. But they're great aspects of that story that involve taking risks, being open to new things, and believing in yourself, and being willing to put yourself out there. So I think that's a fantastic story, even for students who may know that their path may be slightly different.
00:16:09
Speaker
And to me, the takeaway when I tell that story to students or even my own kids is that you just don't know your path.
00:16:17
Speaker
Um, y'all think we know our path. We're, we're, we're training as lawyers. We want to have everything planned out. We want to have everything scripted for us and know what's going to happen and be prepared for that and prepared for the plan A, plan B, plan C, but that's just not how life is. And so keep yourself open to new experiences, raise your hand to work on that case that maybe, you know, you're not so sure if you're interested and you just never know where it's going to lead.
00:16:47
Speaker
And at the end of the day, if you do do work, people do notice that. That's the truth. So anyway. It's a great takeaway.
00:16:57
Speaker
So can you tell us a little bit more Katie about what your current role entails as executive VP and chief legal officer of the Mets? What does your day to day look like? Such a fancy title. Um, but it's really, really, really what it is is overseeing the day to day, um, legal issues for the club. And when I say for the club, we have, you know, two minor league affiliates that we own. We have a spring training facility that we operate in Florida.
00:17:26
Speaker
We have an academy that we own and operate in the Dominican Republic. And so it's overseeing all of that and the legal issues and not just on baseball, but for our other than baseball things that happen, whether it's a concert or other event, things of that nature, our use of our venue.
00:17:51
Speaker
And it really touches every department, help implement the team's vision and strategy, outline the legal issues that may come up as they implement it, and a plan for reacting to it and or addressing it.
00:18:18
Speaker
I used to think when I started in-house that I had to eliminate all risk. And somebody who was an in-house lawyer at another company who I was talking to to try to say, okay, this is new for me. How did you handle your transition? Blah, blah, blah. She said to me, remember, you can never eliminate risk. You can mitigate the risk.
00:18:48
Speaker
And so take your litigation hat off there for a minute and put your business hat on and be the business partner to the team. And it's really been advice that has served me well. That's great. That's fantastic. And what's your favorite part of the job? What's the best part for you? The best part of the job for me
00:19:16
Speaker
Well, put aside, you know, billable hours, right? Kissing that goodbye is just huge. Now the best part for me is being able to learn the entire business. So, um, you know, when you're the outside lawyer and you're brought in, they, you're, you're brought in on an issue. You're an expert in an area. They want your advice in that area. And maybe it would be helpful if you knew a little bit more about X, Y, and Z to help inform your opinion.
00:19:47
Speaker
But you're sensitive to not billing the time to the client for that and doing that. And so you kind of stay and then just qualify everything you're saying. When you're in-house, you can just keep probing and probing and probing and probing. So you really understand. And to me, that's the best part is really getting to know the business from top to bottom so that when people
00:20:16
Speaker
come to me with questions, seeking advice, counsel, whatever it is, the fact that I have that allows me to respond more rapidly and probably end up giving them a better response than I would otherwise. And it's just not something that's easily attainable when you're outside. You can't take the time to do it and say, we're just gonna write it off because by the way, you have other stuff to do.
00:20:46
Speaker
so much time in a day. I'm not sure if clients value it or not. Now that I'm a client, I tell my lawyers I do value it. I tell my outside counsel I do value it, and that if they thought it would be useful for them to come in and probe and ask questions, they should ask me. I would expect them to write off that time, but if they thought it would be useful,
00:21:09
Speaker
down the road for further advice I may be calling on them for that I would encourage them to take that approach with me because it was something that I think is valuable. That makes sense. That's fantastic. Has it been challenging to be a woman in the front office of a major sports enterprise?
00:21:31
Speaker
of a baseball team.
Challenges as a Female Executive
00:21:34
Speaker
I get asked this question so often, Joanna, and when I really reflect on it, it's never been an issue in my career. At least not any more than being a female white collar criminal defense litigator, which was unusual when I did it as well.
00:21:59
Speaker
For the teams that I've worked for, you know, in San Diego and Texas and now in New York, I feel like I'm looked to contribute and make an impact. And that's been my goal wherever I am, is like, am I gonna be able to be impactful in my role here? And I think that's not, I've just been, I don't know if I'm lucky or not. Like the most awkward part for me is I don't like going in the clubhouse.
00:22:28
Speaker
And I don't know if that's a gender thing or if that's, frankly, a generational thing or what it is. But, you know, it's just it's just I'm still after all my years in baseball, just not comfortable just walking into the clubhouse. So I understand that. But that's you know, that's that's it. It's been it's never really in my career been an issue. That's great to hear. That's inspiring.
00:22:56
Speaker
And I know you serve on Major League Baseball's Diversity Pipeline Program Committee.
Diversity Initiatives in MLB
00:23:02
Speaker
Can you talk a little bit more about that work and what's the initiative and what are its goals? Sure, I'm happy to. And the program has changed a bit over the last couple of years, but the goal is really still the same. We want to create opportunities for those who want careers on the baseball operations side. So not focusing on the business,
00:23:26
Speaker
but on the baseball operation side, to create opportunities for diverse candidates to get experience and learnings that they may need in order to make them really attractive candidates when openings come up. Going back to what I said earlier, like I didn't know this job existed, there are plenty of
00:23:52
Speaker
people and people of color and women who just don't even, they don't know what they don't know. And so part of it is making sure they have an understanding of what the opportunities are out there. The baseball operations departments are big.
00:24:12
Speaker
and diverse in what they do. And so the pipeline committee does things like holds a like a saber analytics conference, for instance, to allow candidates to go and hone their skills in analytics or a coaching and scouting program development program.
00:24:37
Speaker
So if there were candidates who were interested in that but they had some collegiate experience but never anything pro, they could see what it was like at the professional level in baseball and try to make sure they have those skills so they're attractive candidates going forward. So that's really what it's doing. It's trying to open up the world of sports
00:25:05
Speaker
and on the baseball side, the baseball operations world to a diverse Canada pool and making, doing what we can to get them prepared for when those opportunities come forward. That's fantastic. It's such, such good work. Have you seen, have you seen progress in this area in the time that you've been working on it? Yeah, absolutely progress. I mean, one of the women who
00:25:30
Speaker
really started the Take the Field program, which was for women in baseball at Major League Baseball, is now a director of baseball operations. You see women in coaching positions, trainers, et cetera, diverse candidates, whether it's coaches or GMs being recruited and hired. So I do see impact. Is there more to do? 100%.
00:26:00
Speaker
There's always more to do, and so that's why the program exists to keep making sure that people know what they don't know. Like, hey, consider baseball. You don't know this. You're an analyst for, I don't know, Google.
00:26:18
Speaker
and you love baseball, did you know that there's actually a career for you in baseball operations, right? That's fantastic. Yep. That's great. That's wonderful.
Advice for Aspiring Sports Lawyers
00:26:29
Speaker
And so my last question for you is, what would you advise students, law students who are interested in a career in sports? So this is another question I frequently get asked. And so if they're in school,
00:26:47
Speaker
I get asked what classes should I take or not take and on and on. I tell them to take labor law. That's good advice. Labor law is one of the classes. I practice labor and employment, but I think unions, depending on where you are in the country,
00:27:11
Speaker
different impact, right? But teams, I mean, all the leagues, all the players are unionized.
00:27:20
Speaker
And so I think having that labor experience is useful. And I don't think a lot of people go into labor law because it's a smaller practice area. So having a general understanding of labor law and CBAs and negotiations and all of that, I think would be useful. And I also advise people to look for opportunities with firms who practice
00:27:49
Speaker
in this space who have practice groups now, there's firms that have their sports law practice and look for those firms for clerkship opportunities or other opportunities. For baseball fans out there, I know the league opens internships every year. I think they're open now.
00:28:11
Speaker
Um, and they're specific to law students. And so those students should look now on MLB's website for careers there. And most teams hire interns. The legal departments vary in my experience on whether or not they hire interns because the, you know, it's, it's, I don't know. I don't know why I know from my perspective, I want to be able to supervise and have it meaningful.
00:28:37
Speaker
and it's difficult to do when you're a small department, but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be an internship in another department that would allow the intern to at least get an inside look at the business and how the business works. And so if you're not getting that clerkship you were looking for one year, or if you've got your graduate clerkship all set, and so you have some
00:29:06
Speaker
opportunity to give to an internship on the business side, I don't think it would be a waste of time at all to get an understanding of how the inside of these departments work.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's excellent advice. That's great, Katie. Well, thanks so much. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap up? No, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I'm glad to be back up in the Rutgers area in the Northeast.
00:29:39
Speaker
I look forward to our next chat. Yes, likewise. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today and chatting with us on the podcast. And I hope that we can meet in person sometime. It would be really nice. I do, too. I do, too. Yeah. Thanks so much, Katie. Let's plan that for City Field. Okay. Excellent. Okay. Take care. Thanks again. Take care. All righty. Bye-bye. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School.
00:30:05
Speaker
With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more today by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.