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Problem #9: Illustrating Your Creation
133 Plays7 days ago
This week, Kristian and Tracy welcome back guest Brandon Verhalen of Star Anvil Studios to talk about the value of commissioning art for your project. Whether you use it to help visualize your world and inspire you in the concept phase, or to communicate the look, feel, actions, and even mechanics of your setting to your audience, art can play a valuable and fundamental role in the creative process. Check out our discord, Where Brandon and Tracy plan to share some art pieces (from rough to final) and discuss how they both inspired their creations and help communicate them to others.
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
Star Anvil Studios: https://staranvilstudios.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Designing Problems RPG Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this addictive minefield. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number nine, illustrating your creation.
Interview with Brandon Verhalen on RPG Art and Illustration
00:00:43
Speaker
and helping us navigate this minefield, we have our good friend joining us again, Brandon Verhalen. Thank you so much for joining us. Brandon, Star Anvil Studios, Starbreaker, you all know him, you all love him, and he's back.
00:01:00
Speaker
Welcome, Brandon. Thanks. I don't know about love them, but at least they like me. I hope. shit Yeah. Well, we'll say like, okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for joining us. And we're we're excited to have you back to talk about this. Indeed. So I think that art is a big subject, especially when it comes to the idea that we're not only creating, we're not only sort of illustrating, but we're also sort of moving into production and marketing and all that other stuff. Art is a major topic. So this will be the first of those topics. And I think this time we're going to concentrate on the fun part, which is illustrating
00:01:42
Speaker
as as inspiration for your project and illustrating to communicate your project is is kind of what I'm thinking. And we we we might touch on some of these other aspects as well because it's good to have some of these other aspects in mind when you're getting art made for you.
00:02:01
Speaker
But we won't concentrate too hard on finding artists or using art to market or or yeah the ins and outs of how you distribute your art and your product and all that other stuff, because that's that's a whole other thing. um So that's that's that's that's my intention for this episode anyway.
00:02:23
Speaker
kind of sticking to like just the creative fun stuff. The fun stuff. Right. Right. that That is the best part of it, to be honest. It
The Role of Art in RPG Development
00:02:30
Speaker
is. yeah So Brandon knows all this all too well, because Brandon is an old um hand at ordering art in the development stage, in the concept stage, which is where we're going to start, right? Using illustrations during your creative process. And tell us, Brandon, like I,
00:02:51
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure you've done it for multiple projects, but certainly for Starbreaker, probably for Knights Arcanum, which is out there and probably coming, right? How do you approach the art process in terms of while you're creating your setting? So I'm really good at, well, I like to think I'm good at coming up with ideas and writing down the notes of how I want my world to come together.
00:03:17
Speaker
But sometimes when you're creating something, it really helps to kind of put get that visual focus for like ah you're going to, this dragon creature is the main creature focus of your setting, let's say. And your writers have to write what that thing looks like. Now, either I have to be a really good writer so that they can give them all the description or, which I'm better at, I could tell the artist to make it look like this. And now all the art writers have a reference.
00:03:44
Speaker
ye um And so as I come up with ideas that I feel like this is the the bad guy or this is the scene or whatever I want that speaks to me like a ah moment in time in the story, I get it illustrated. And sometimes when I do that, I get other ideas as well. Yes.
00:04:04
Speaker
So yeah, i i didn't I didn't start ordering art until later. And partly that's a conservative approach because I just i was just like, oh man, whatever I order, now I'm going to throw out.
00:04:21
Speaker
Right? yeah and And the thing is, that's okay. like The whole thing about behind concept art is that it's concept art, right? It can be used as inspiration for you. It can also be used as motivation for you.
00:04:38
Speaker
And it can not only reflect what you're trying to create, but inspire what you're trying to create. And concept art doesn't have to be a huge order. It can be one scene, right? It can be something that that's iconic or something that you really want to see visually.
00:04:58
Speaker
ah and visualize so that you can understand what it is, so that you can keep writing it. And it's okay to spend some money on that, right? Some of us will just do it because we want to. Certainly that's what Brandon did in the early goings. Is that right? Oh, absolutely. I was spending, I think I was knocking out about 150 bucks a week for a long time, which does like a lot, but That is a lot. Yeah. Well, when you, I won't tell you that I got an amazing deal on art, so that was going a lot farther and you'd ever get it to go today too. Um, bless Zach Dolan for his generosity and his statement always was indie prices for indie creators. Nice. So, and but you were doing that because you wanted to. Yes, because I wanted to, because it helped me feel like
00:05:46
Speaker
you know, to visualize the saying, OK, this is what the aliens look like in here's what this is like. And then, well, how does this work? Well, what if, it oh, this is what it looks like. And then I would know and and I would get ideas and write, I mean, and keep going. And so, yeah, it was great. I was also writing notes. I didn't just do art, but yeah. Were you at that point. Committed to making it a product or was it still just like, oh, whatever, I just want to I just want to have art for my thing that I'm trying to create. I had decided I was going to make a product.
00:06:15
Speaker
e The first piece or two was just an idea that I said, Oh, this would be cool. And I said, well, what if I got one more? And it was, it was after like the first two that it became like, this is going to be a project. I have, I, I see it now and I want to do it. And then I just kept spending and spending until I had to make a product because I can tell you, I knocked back well over. I at least 13,000 in art. Wow.
00:06:44
Speaker
so Christian, have you done any concept art for any of the stuff you've done? Not yet. um and you know I think about concept art a lot because I know i I, for one, am always fascinated when I see concept art for like other RPGs or video games.
00:07:02
Speaker
Because I see how the that that artwork inspired decisions about the world design, yeah right or inspired even like just the aesthetic of the world itself. I think about, for example, um you know Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild, right all the Sheikah technology and the swirls and the patterns and it's stone-like, but it's like,
00:07:24
Speaker
electronic at the same time kind of like, you know, and that, you know, that to me was was a fascinating aesthetic. And then Tears of the Kingdom, you know, at the zonai, you know, technology and stuff. and And even Horizon Zero Dawn, where you have this sort of tribal type of clothing and whatnot built with scraps of machinery
Concept Art's Influence on Game Design
00:07:45
Speaker
integrated, right? like Like metal plates and wires and you know And I love how concept art can help inform the world. And so you know with Explorer, for example, you know we're we're we're still trying to you know hammer out like the the baseline assumptions about the world and the plot point campaign and things like that. um What we kind of want to do is actually you know use, well, it's kind of going to work bi-directionally.
00:08:14
Speaker
we want it We want the art to look like somebody is exploring this world and sketching in a journal what they see. a And so that's going to do several things. It's going to keep the art costs down. yep It's going to give it that feel of you're you're an explorer looking at these journal entries, these notes about this creature or whatever it might be. That's super cool. Yeah. And and um you know, but I think it'll also help us inform like how we describe these things. Right. And so, so that's kind of where, you know, we haven't ordered anything yet. We're still, like I said, you know, laying down the foundation on on a lot of these things, but
00:08:52
Speaker
but that's going to be our approach. Um, you know, cause we, we can't just do like, you know, 150 bucks a week on art, you know, no but you could make, you couldn't have a sketch done, like right have something done and then go, wow, is that what it looks like? That's really cool. Exactly. And now, now suddenly you're inspired to do more, right? yeah To finish it, to, to, to, to develop it further.
00:09:16
Speaker
Because you see it. You're like, it's oh, it's on the page now. I see what it looks like. in In some ways, it feels like cheating a little bit using the sketch concept. um But I also think it's going to help us like if we decide to continue with further products, we can keep that same aesthetic you know throughout and and keep costs low. And then hopefully,
00:09:36
Speaker
you know the the funds that we we earn from selling this product will help us get better art for other projects. sure That's the dream, the hope, the question. right right it's It's not better art, it's different art. If you made a design choice that you feel captures the feel for your setting, it is not better or worse. It is the vision you had for your setting. Exactly. Lineart can be just as valid as full color art. Oh yeah. oh yeah And it, but it's cheaper, but it's not lesser. It's what you thought looked right for your setting. Right. Right. Yep. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, as an aside somewhere around here, I have a, a book.
00:10:16
Speaker
with a lot of the concept art from Horizon Zero Dawn that Jess Rogers gave me for my birthday one year. oh And it was it was something like my 50th or something. And it's amazing. Oh, I bet. like Yeah. the the The art in there is breathtakingly spectacular. Wow. And the dollar signs that go through my head as I'm looking through this book of how much they spent on this art yeah is mind blowing to me. And this is concept art. This is art that inspires the game. yeah know yeah It's like, oh, um yeah that's a whole nother level of art. resources that we don't have, you know? And ah so yeah, it's just something, it's just an aside, but but wow, you know, but you don't have to do that. It can be a black and white, just a sketch and sketches, artists will do sketches and and and be concept artists for you. but it It doesn't have to cost you an arm and a leg, you know? And it can it can inspire you in a huge way. I didn't do it. I didn't. I waited. I waited until
00:11:31
Speaker
I had a pretty good idea that I was going to make this into a product and I had written a lot of it. And now I need art so that I can know what it looks like. I have to know what it looks like. And HonCluster is very demanding in that way. like The yellow shift, shift intensity, all this other stuff, it had to be color. It had to be. right yeah There was no other choice. If you're going to name something the yellow shift, you better show it in color. You better. you know It had to be. and so That was part of my conservative approach was like, I'm not going to do this until until I feel like the money is warranted.
00:12:09
Speaker
Did you have anything that you came in as art that then you were like, Oh, that's really cool. I want to go change this now to match that all the time. I'm two really good examples and both come from starbreaker.
00:12:23
Speaker
ah Because I had the freedom to create versus, you know, whereas with um Secret World, I have to go according to what they've already done, so I can't change. With Starbreaker, the first thing, an older thing that happened was, is the ah the Dunar. They're a species that are kind of their dark reddish skin. They were created by this the the big evil race to be their soldiers, right? They're a bunch of cloned, genetically created soldier kind of thing. And the artist kind of added these little frills on the top of their head.
00:12:52
Speaker
bigger than I intended. i kind they' They're not hair, they're they're kind of like, you know, ah almost lizard like little spikes up there. I was like, well, why would those be there? I was like, what what does those mean to me? And so determine that, well, what if they move and they can move them at will and those are a way they communicate. Very cool. So it's ah so it's it's not like language, it's the subtext of their um emotions are carried in it.
00:13:19
Speaker
Body language. And then we went further because one artist decided not to put the frills on us. Well, what does that mean? I said, well, the big evil overlords don't like the communication, so they cut them off the ones they make go to war. So ones who have the frills have been born after the war, ones without are from the war. And so you can tell who went through the war and who didn't. So I added a whole bunch of layer to the story. And then recently I had um Alita was doing the layout. I said, let's make some symbols for the the pirates and the assassins, because people like to identify with certain things. it's like it So she I said, let's do a big star with some stars and a couple of stars in the symbol for the pirates, because they're part of the iridium nebu nebula pirates or whatever. I said, put some stars in it. That's a great. we don't We don't want to just do a skull. That's always the thing. So she put a total of seven stars in there after I gave her some sketch stuff or whatever. I said, you know what? Why would there be seven stars?
00:14:11
Speaker
There are seven pirate lords that ah control the pirate, the, the pirates and they're ready of Nebula. yeah So you can go, what does this mean? It doesn't have to mean something, but it might be like, you can always ask yourself, what does this mean? What, why does this matter or not? And if it doesn't, it's, it's like a writing prompt, maybe to inspire something for you, yeah which is a good reason to get the concept art done and they go,
00:14:33
Speaker
I always thought the aliens were going to look this way or the dragon was going to look this way, but after the artistry, you know, nope, this is how the dragon or the alien looks. And what does that mean? Why is that tusk broken? Was it from a fight? You know, et cetera. Yeah.
Learning from Misaligned Art
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah. It can be large and small. Right. And for English, there were little things like the the hair.
00:14:53
Speaker
tie on top of one of my archetype's heads became a thing you can buy in the gear that changes your, like puts a stripe of color in your hair. oh d Especially as a next ghost, right? And so it's the only color that you'll have as a next ghost is besides being blue or yellow, right? Or somewhere in between is to have a red stripe in your ponytail or whatever. And it's just something that that was inspired by the art that I saw, right? And the way the the pulse pistols look, I now know because I have an artist who did them.
00:15:26
Speaker
And now I can say, OK, you new artist, this is how pulse pistols look. Right. You know what I mean? And and so it builds on itself. Right. Right. And it reinforces the world. Exactly. And but it's it's for for the purpose. and And, you know, again, we'll get to this later. The purpose of marketing a product and getting it out there is like it tells you what it looks like.
00:15:53
Speaker
Not only tells the people who will buy it what it looks like, it tells you what it looks like. You're like, oh, okay, that's what it looks like. Great. Fantastic. Now I know. Or you get something back and you go, oh no, you can't look like that.
00:16:07
Speaker
And there's that happens too. There are a few pieces for Hunkless that I probably won't use. It's not the artist's fault. The artist did a great job. It's my fault. Right. And i'm I was just wrong. I was just like, oh, this is this is wrong. You know, I can't use this because it's wrong. Pinnacle has done that. We did it with Holler. We replaced, we entirely replaced the archetypes ah that we originally did.
00:16:30
Speaker
ah art for in Holler with new ones, um just because it wasn't right. Nothing the artist did wrong. And so that that's part of the process. You hopefully don't have to waste too much money doing that. But at the same time, for me, it is really important to know when to fold them, right? And to say, this isn't right.
00:16:56
Speaker
Just because I paid for it doesn't mean it's going to go in the book. right And that's okay. That's okay. It's okay to have made that mistake and to and to redo it with a different artist or go back to the same artist and have it redone.
00:17:13
Speaker
last Last problem slash episode, we talked about failure, right? Like failing in the process. Are there lessons in that? And when you get that art piece back and you're like, Oh, that's not going to work. What's an example lesson you might've learned from that?
00:17:27
Speaker
Well, you know, it goes back to, you know, the the whole point of art is to illustrate how you want things to look. And you might go, that's not the direction I want to take with my, my whatever it is. Again, the first thing I did the most of was the aliens and the main characters that I had in mind for the story. And so.
00:17:45
Speaker
What I had done was, is I had, ah his name was Samir, he he lives in Bosnia, lots of cool stories from that guy. um And he did the initial art for Starbreaker, back then, just calling the states and centers. And the first one he did looked just like a wolf's head on a human's body, 100%, just a wolf's head on a human body. And I was like, I don't want to go quite that head on a body anthropomorphic, you know, thing. I said, that's not quite so we, we does a do me some concept art of a more alien kind of inspired by Wolf, but think alien. And it just came back so alien to me that I felt like that's not relatable. Right. And so I decided that's not the direction I want to take. So you can learn, you know, that's, that's not what I wanted to see. And so there were some failures in the the way. And that kind of drove me to go a little lower back into the,
00:18:38
Speaker
aliens look a little bit more like the animal they're going to be, but not quite. So, so the lesson from that failure for you is, uh, how you're, how you're articulating to the, to the artist, what you're looking for. So yeah. Um, when I describe things to him, you're, that's the better answer yet. I did not describe things as effectively as I thought with the details. And so you learn how to,
00:19:03
Speaker
ah Give better references to to give the artist a little more direction like you'll you'll learn with the artists you work with How much direction you need to give them? Yes, and over time? You need to give less but in the beginning you want if you have a strong idea you want to give more so that they go more to the direction. Otherwise you're spent a lot of time with concepts that that, again, like Tracy said, not that it was wrong, you just didn't weren't able to strongly enough communicate what you wanted. And so what you got back was exactly or what they interpreted from you. Okay. Yeah. No, that helps. That's cool. Yeah. And there's a back and forth that goes on there. Like, uh, there was,
00:19:40
Speaker
This happens. there was There was a particular monster in Pine Box Middle School that was that was mine particularly because it was for my adventure. right It was for my Curse of Wilson Corey adventure. The Blood Demon. I wanted it to be scary. I wanted it to be monstrously scary because we didn't I felt like we needed more ah something that would that would terrify you in the book. And I was like, no, Blood Demon has to be scary. And so poor Alita, who was who was art directing at the time, ah she gave me back a couple of concept pieces or ruffs from artists and I'm like, well,
00:20:21
Speaker
That's it's not quite right right. And the thing is, i i don't i you don't want to like micromanage them because they're artists. you You're counting on them to bring their aesthetic to it. right You're counting on them to be creative and and give them the chance.
00:20:39
Speaker
to express themselves within the confines of what you're trying to get them to do. right And so I didn't want to say, well, nah, it's not that. it's like i would I was willing to work with it. right But I'm like, yeah, it's not. And and and we're we're paying money for this, so I don't want to waste money. But Alita finally decided on her own to go to a different artist, because it was obviously not working. right It was like not that artist's aesthetic. And so once she did, and it came back,
00:21:07
Speaker
um I was like, there, that's it. okay That's it. That's what I wanted. right Perfect. like Go with that and finish it. So sometimes it's just a matter of, it's not you, it's the artist's style. Not that they're doing a bad job. yeah They just have a different style. Exactly. Or they have they have some some different aesthetic or some different thing they're bringing to it than that clashes with what you're trying to yeah create. Not that you've miscommunicated or not that you not that you um do it this way. yeah I want this, this, this, this, this, this, this. you know It's not exactly that because it's ah it's ah it's a two-way street. But in that case, we found the right artist for that particular thing. And I'm like, that's it. That's what I wanted. Exactly what I wanted. It's going to scare the hell out of people. And what's in the book now is that.
00:21:57
Speaker
And when people look at it, when I show it at the at at the con games or when I run it, people are just like, oh my gosh. you know And that's exactly what I wanted. That's right. And and so it's it's like I say, it's a two-way street because you want to bring the artist's artistry.
00:22:14
Speaker
to the project, not just have them puppet something else. You want to, you want to be able to pick an artist, which takes time that, that, uh, uh, has that aesthetic or that you you want to look through what they have and see, do they make anything that's even close to what I want, which they may or may not have. But if you can find one, that's kind of like, Hey, I would wish this art was in my book. This is what I'm looking for. If you found there, then you can say, Hey, I want you to do this style ish.
00:22:44
Speaker
but make these changes and make it mine. And that's great. So it's, you can find a couple of artists to do the same, even better. I was going to mention, yeah. Like, like when you're, maybe when you're trying to define your own aesthetic for your world or for your characters or whatever, you know, there's, there's, there's existing sites where you can see existing work that artists have done like art station and so on. Yep.
00:23:05
Speaker
and I think that can be just as much inspirational in terms of guiding your you know what what you want to see. and so i yeah ah Like you said, it's it's basically like a shop like a shopping catalog of what's out there and who can you know who can match and align with what you're looking for.
00:23:24
Speaker
yeah Right, and then it's like whether they're available, how much are going to charge? Can you afford them? Well, they're available if you have X amount of dollars. Well, they're not available to me. Exactly, exactly. But one thing I do want to mention before we move on to ah communicating your world, which we've kind of touched on already, but we can go on to some of the specifics, yeah is maps.
Maps and Scenery in RPGs
00:23:45
Speaker
Yes. Very super useful. Yes. Super useful. And and this is this goes into RPG design.
00:23:52
Speaker
Right? Like having a map, not only a battle map for a particular set piece combat or whatever, but a map of the planet or a map of the of the city or whatever. It makes it so much better in terms of communicating what's out there for PCs yeah and players to interact with. yeah And it inspires you to say, ah, there's a location here.
00:24:18
Speaker
I've got to put something in that location that's super interesting. Otherwise, what the heck are we doing in here? right and The PCs can then decide, I want to go to that location because it sounds interesting or because it's got a cool name or because it looks cool on the map. I want to see what that is. right and so the map gives you It gives you locations, it gives you inspiration, both as a player of the setting, as a designer of the setting, ah to to create, right? And i think there I think they're really useful and really underused in a lot of RPG product. And even the map itself has an aesthetic of its own. It does. It does. Right. Brandon, did do you use use a lot of maps or? I use a lot. I use maps.
00:25:06
Speaker
Or, you know, once I pull off or I run games online a lot, uh, to show like, here's the place you're at or something, because, you know, you're playing on discord, you, you, you have, which is why I mostly play on, um, you know, so they can skip.
00:25:18
Speaker
feel of what that building's like and make their plans for where they're going to break in. Exactly. you know there' There's the air vent. you know they you You know, you put a plans in front of your players with an air vent when they're supposed to do a heist because you know that's where they're going to go. Quite often I leave that open for them just for that reason. Other times I put a trap in it because I'm being a jerk.
00:25:38
Speaker
but but But it's going to attempt them to go there and you're right. you know that's That's what you do. And I think the best word, I think what you were describing about maps is what it provides for players and GMs is immersion.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah, the world becomes more real, especially if the map is done in an aesthetic that represents the world like a real like a quote unquote real map would be in that world like a galactic map for your star campaign or a nice cool looking pirate fantasy map and a pirate campaign and so on.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, Pinedvax Middle School has its own aesthetic, the Pinedvax Tourism Board or whatever it is. And we've got, it's a very specific like cartoony kind of thing we've got going. And that that informs the setting while also giving you cool locations to go to, right?
00:26:26
Speaker
So i want I want to touch on because, you know, we we talked about like art pieces of like characters or like the gear that they have and then, you know, cartography, like getting maps and so on. But I think part of this too is like scenes, right? Like it it's it could be either an internal structure, like a, you know,
00:26:43
Speaker
a bar scene or a street view or whatever, but could also be like scenery of the world, the physical, natural world itself to really kind of communicate you know what is, you know where where are the players? yeah right Where are the characters? in In that sense, when you're doing like sci-fi, because you're both doing other planets, other worlds with their own you know biospheres and whatever, sure how do you how do you think about that? How do you think about those environments?
00:27:11
Speaker
you know, or like what the technology of that world might look like or the architecture of that world might look like. And how do, how do you, you know, I guess, I don't know, how, how do you think about in terms of what you're communicating to, to the artist and how that's coming back? Well, well, for me, it was like, for example, the, the most talked about planet and starbreaker is echo. And I describe it kind of like, a you think of it as kind of like the, ah um,
00:27:39
Speaker
It's a mining planet. That's the purpose of why it's so important. It it provides the but the the ah magic item X that allows space travel more. it's it's a you need that You need this mineral or whatever. so um and So when you think about a mining planet, it's kind of like the old west on the surface. And and then there's these large things. they Every city is built into what's called a pit.
00:28:06
Speaker
because in the I'm trying to make this quick. ah you know To set up why I'm saying it this way. ah The mining machines, just they just dig big circular holes into the ground, like miles wide and hundreds of feet deep. And then they build their cities in the walls of that pit.
00:28:22
Speaker
right Okay, so you're trying to like, that's like the cyberpunk type area. That's where the cities are in the surface areas where the sort of, you know, mining towns with the they call them scrapers, people make scrape the stuff off the surface and get the lesser stuff live. And so I have this one scene where It kind of looks like an old west town, you know, with the the typical long street. And there's a guy standing in the middle who looks like he's about to, you know, he's got a, he's going to whip out a weapon right there with the whole, you know, like, um, wind whipping through kind of western thing and guys with guns there. But on the sides, you see people looking out their windows and stuff and buildings that are made of metal and wood, maybe, but they got alien script on the signs instead.
00:29:05
Speaker
right, you know, and you see the nakira the bat people flying through the sky. So you get the feeling this is sort of a Western kind of free for all survival type thing, but you also know you're in the in a futuristic not, you know, current set, you kind of get the feel for what it's like to be there. It's tough to live there. And so I'm communicating that look there. Whereas in the cities, it's all lights and, you know, and and and so you get to feel like what it's what you're trying to show what that world's like, I guess, and in that sense there. Yeah. And i was with with Hong cluster that I was very, very deliberate about trying to create planets that had their own things.
00:29:45
Speaker
So each planet is unique in its own way, right? Edenic, perfect, idyllic planet, like made, seemingly made for humans, right? But every other colony planet out there has its quirks. Whether onyx is dark, like there's there's there's very little sort of light in comparison to other planets. Venom is poisonous. Shock is got these crazy coil storms and it's basically covered with this acid and tract is the desert planet, chased is the jungle planet, calipo is the ice planet. like Each of them have these sort of broad strokes yeah so that you know where you are.
00:30:26
Speaker
at any given time, you know what I mean? And ah and then the art sort of reflects that. like it it it It helps you inform what the artist should do with that. Right. Which which then kind of leads us to the communicating the world, right?
Storytelling through Art in RPGs
00:30:40
Speaker
Yes. Because you're you're trying to give that feel of what that that environment is like, what it's like to to literally be in that physical space.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, so one of the things that you can do as far as communicating your world with art is what we just talked about, which is creating this environment and say, here, this is what it's like to be in this environment. You've got the bat creatures flying around, you've got this long street with alien names on the on the buildings, but it's still sci-fi, but it's also you know the wild west of of Starbreaker, right right? There's an important aspect of that, but there's other things that you can tell but or express through your art. And I think these are things worth thinking about. And one of those things is
00:31:29
Speaker
this is This is my thing. I like to do this. I like to tell a story with my art, right? I like to have scenes that are telling me something that's going on. And that was true in Pine Box Middle School where I was very insistent that, I mean, it's just the way I am. I can't help it, right? And some sometimes Ed and ed particularly would would be, you're gilding the lily, Tracy. And I'm like, yeah, I know, but I want to tell a story with this art.
00:31:58
Speaker
And there are there are pieces in there that have little subtle details that if you look at them carefully, you can see there's stuff going on that you may not see at first. And I like to do that with the art. And ah almost all the art, especially in the campaign portion of Honcluster, does that. it's it's It sets up a scene that is telling you a story about it. Another thing you can do is demonstrate activities and actions, right?
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah, so so one of my favorite things in in art in an RPG or or anything for that matter that I love are like like sometimes you have pieces where there's like characters doing things in parallel. It's like when you think about kids, you know little kids doing parallel play, they're each just doing their own thing.
00:32:48
Speaker
What I love are the things like the person hanging from the cliff and holding the other person's hand, right? Or like, you know, where they're where they're doing things together and and you're seeing examples of the kinds of things that your character will be doing with your fellow players. Yes, yes.
00:33:05
Speaker
and i and And so that's that's something I think good art can also convey. you know beyond and like you know We have the portraits and things like that for a reason. you know We're trying to show an example character. We're trying to show you know a photo of an NPC, or not a photo, but an illustration of an NPC. but But it's those it's those action scenes that show you know what are the character what are the players going to be doing when they play this game. You're you're helping to define, as as Ross Watson would remind me, what's the core activity? Yes, exactly. What's the iconic adventure? And you' you're showing it by those images, you're showing what the expected
00:33:43
Speaker
you know Players do what they want to do. What what did you expect when you created the settings? Here's what I was wanting you to do with it. And so they'll see that, oh, that's what we do. And some will grasp onto that and go with it. Exactly. Full of that stuff in the on cluster. you know Repairing the kristum drive. like This is a direct reflection of what is happening in that adventure. right This is likely going to happen to you.
00:34:06
Speaker
And you can yeah if if if all if all goes according to plan, of course, you never know what the players are going to do. But this is this moment is going to happen. and And the GM will be able to pull that thing out and say, this is what it looks like if you're trying to do this. And I go, oh, cool.
00:34:22
Speaker
you know And I understand now what a Christian drive looks like. I know what i know what I'm trying to do here. you know That's just a cool way to communicate things. And it's a cool way to communicate to the GM what what you think is going to happen, like Brandon said. yeah yeah But there's more than just that. There's also capturing moments, and it's okay if those moments aren't action.
00:34:43
Speaker
yeah Because sometimes you're trying to capture a mood. Sometimes you're trying to capture a feeling about your setting. And Hong cluster has that too. Maybe too much of it, but I can't help it, right? I can't help it. Like there are scenes that I paid big bucks for that I'm just like, yeah, it has to be in there. Yeah.
00:35:02
Speaker
I have to have the the dinner on the rasseter in there. I have to see Hailey Preston at the head of the table being all animated while other people are tasting ice cream from Earth for the first time. Right. ah you You're setting the scene, right? yourre Yeah. yeah know and and ah you know I think about pieces that are like, you know I remember this one wallpaper I had on my desktop and it was ah It was like an elf explorer in a jungle region looking down at a valley and there was this giant ruin, like a temple down below. And they they were just it's like they were just crouched kind of assessing what's going on down there before they went in.
00:35:41
Speaker
And that, and that to me was like, that's a moment. That's a scene that I would love to be experiencing as a player yeah or as a character, you know, and, and, and so things like that, you know, I think are absolutely worthwhile. You know, those, those, they just set up the environment, set up the experience, and then your imagination kind of just runs with the rest of it. You know, I want to mention one thing that I think we were talking last time you said, or I don't think we were talking. I think when I was listening to you,
00:36:10
Speaker
or whichever you mentioned how, whether you'd realize it or not, stuff that, that is your personal is going to end up in your writing. Okay. Right. It's going to happen to your art too. and Absolutely. So for example, when I kept, I had got all the, uh, initial species are done. I did like a male, female thing to try and really show what everything looked like. Most people will just do one cause it's cheaper, but I did both because I would like to spend a lot of money and every single one has a weapon in their hand or on their side. Oh, I noticed.
00:36:46
Speaker
very violent society. i so um And that was both intentional and overly done by myself as I thought about it later on. So as I looked into, as I've done new art, I said, let's balance that out a little bit. I didn't realize I was being so full. Like, cause I thought it looks cool. You know, you know, they're, they're going to do action. Great. But like, why does the engineer have a gun? You know, so when I did the archetypes art,
00:37:12
Speaker
I made sure that, hey, the engineer has a tool in their hand instead of, ah or a data, but the thief has a a picking device. Of course the mercenary is going to have a gun. I mean, that's, yeahp but I mean, I used to be like, Starbreaker is a very violent kind of like the world is terrible to live in your wild west. Sure. But i sometimes you might go, I'm so hyper fixated on this aspect of the story. People might think that's all there is to it. So you want to balance it. And I learned that as I went.
00:37:39
Speaker
yeah But, ah you know, something, what are you expressing in every single piece? Did you put the same thing? Are they always the same color? Are they always the same same weapon? Do they always have the same pose? I mean, things like that can happen. Repetitiveness. With Hong cluster, I wanted to move away from everybody having weapons all the time. And that was one of the challenges of it because it's it's easy. It's one of those, it's one of those communication things. It's so easy just to communicate. This is action.
00:38:08
Speaker
when somebody's shooting a gun or somebody's swinging a sword. It's harder to communicate that without those things. yeah And yet, I had to do it because that's what Honk Cluster is. It has plenty of action. It has plenty of weapons. There's plenty of reasons to be fighting, but that is not even anywhere near all of what Honk Cluster is or what you do.
00:38:32
Speaker
Right there. There's plenty of social conflict. There's plenty of other things that are happening that have nothing to do with violence, but have to do with dilemmas and all those other things that that i that I feel passionate about. Right.
00:38:48
Speaker
And that's a challenge. It's a challenge to communicate that visually in a way that's interesting and compelling for people to want to play. Right. It's like thinking about like, you know, you think about the the crew of the fire of the Serenity, right? They're not all walking around with weapons.
00:39:04
Speaker
and so on, but they might have their own trademark items that they use. Yeah, they have things to do. Kaylee, is it Kaylee? Who is the- The mechanic? Yeah, the mechanic. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She has things to do, but she's not necessarily walking around with a weapon all the time. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And you have the doctor, you have all these different characters doing different things. And I think in art, you can still do something where they're not all just shooting guns, maybe maybe the medic is like you know helping somebody who got shot while somebody else is providing cover right or something to that effect. you know Exactly. so in in Yeah. So I think to your point, yes, that's a good thing to keep in mind and I'm going to keep that in mind because yeah it's we yeah we got to check our i guess our our patterns, you know the the the repeated things that we might you know
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah, and for you, you know your main thing is is the danger of the environment, right? yeah Or yeah how how you're going to deal with with people versus the environment. Yeah, you show different creatures and physical obstacles and exactly tools for dealing with all that stuff. One of the other things I want to mention is your art can help explain how things work.
Ensuring Consistent Art Style
00:40:13
Speaker
Yes.
00:40:14
Speaker
because, and and this is important, especially important when the Hong cluster. And it has to, for me, it's very important that it's consistent. Like most people have draxles implanted in their hips, right? That's where most of them are. And so in my art, I always have to make sure or remind my artists that there needs to be a some kind of tendril coming out from their hip to the X weapon that they're holding. right Because that's an aesthetic of the setting. It's part of the setting and it has to be there all the time. right yeah It can't just be there selectively. This is how things work. right it's It may not seem important, but it is important. It's one of those things that we talked about in the previous episode where that polish matters. it's it's it it That consistency of
00:41:05
Speaker
the world can make people feel more immersed in it and make it more beloved once they really delve in and realize how much you've thought about this. You know what I mean? And the art can reflect that. And so I'm i'm very particular and and there's nothing wrong with that about what my art is trying to communicate about how things work, whether it's a weapon, whether it's ex gear or anything like that, or ah the feeling I'm trying to express or whatever. you know i'm i'm I'm pretty particular about it.
00:41:39
Speaker
And I think that's kind of important. At the same time, you don't want to like burn out your artists or make them mad at you or yeah you know have unnecessarily have them revise stuff that gets ridiculous. But that's so that's a subject for another show.
00:41:55
Speaker
i I think it's also important to have art that allows, or that forces, I don't know if forces is the right word, the reader to question things. Meaning, am i what I mean by question is like, wonder. Like, what's that about? Right? I want to learn, like, what is that thing? Like, I want to learn more about that. What's that creature? Or what's that thing they're holding? Or what's that tendril, you know, coming from their hip, right? Like, in and and then,
00:42:21
Speaker
but and But then also using that as fuel for role play for different stories that they can they they can add elements into. you know So what are what are some some final thoughts you have, Brandon, about your use of art, whether it's communicating your your setting or or your your viewpoint on the world or whatever, or or using it as ah as a creative inspiration, any any other thoughts you have?
00:42:46
Speaker
And for me, art has always been about both inspiring me and hopefully inspiring the reader, right? you want it It makes you feel good to see your world come to life. It inspires what you're going to create, but you want the reader to get something out of it. So I think you might want to ask yourself, well, this means something to me. Will it mean anything to the reader? And if the answer is no, you might still want to put it in the book.
00:43:09
Speaker
yep because it's your book. yeah you just have some things i mean it's It's yours. you You put all the time and insanity into it and the obsession into it, but you might also want to say how much this, if it only means something to you, but it's supposed to mean like, it like I said,
00:43:26
Speaker
Tracy an image earlier today and go, what does this tell you about the character? Like what what do you think you you see when you look at this? And I showed to a couple other people and they all said pretty much the same thing. She means business or she's tough or she's dangerous. I said, well, that's what I wanted to communicate. Right. There's other details that they may not pick up on, which is fine. She's wearing a necklace. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a crow, a skull, silver, crow skull, whatever. And she's, she's a witch. And so you kind of,
00:43:54
Speaker
get, okay, what's that? You know, some people might pick on them some not, but you you want to use that to move. I guess the best term is, does it move the story in any way for you or for the reader? Right. And all everything we talked about really is we're telling a story with the art and does the art help your story? Yeah.
00:44:14
Speaker
explain the world and the last thing I guess is if ah if a picture's worth a thousand words, you can in that picture you can show so much that you can't necessarily write in three pages for some people. Yeah, or or that they'll be even bothered to read at that point. Yeah. That's true. it's It's like when you're reading Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's describing a door for two pages, right? like Sure. yeah You can just have an art piece that does the same thing. you know But yeah, i'm I'm a big believer in in the art because you're paying for it. This is commissioned art. This is art that is supposed to be what you want. yeah So take the time and make the effort to make it consistent and congruent with what you're writing. I mean, that's that's why I like to tell stories with the art. It's why I like to convey theme and to capture these particular moments of the plot point campaign so that
00:45:07
Speaker
if not just me, can feel those moments and see them see what they look like, the that they can too. you know and And I'm a big believer in, we're paying for it, so let's make it a package, yeah not just the art and the writing. right And there's a lot of products out there that don't that do that. That seems like the art is distant from the writing. Yeah, there needs to be a harmony between the two.
00:45:35
Speaker
yeah So I do want to mention one more thing before we go. There's there's a few things to consider, because we're going to cover more about art in future episodes. But there's a couple of things to consider when you're making it. And one is um you can ask for layers. In this world of digital art artists that we have out there, they can put stuff on layers. And you can ask for them on layers. And usually, if you do it early enough, it's no big skin off their back to do it.
00:46:07
Speaker
right Tell them at the beginning. So if you know you're going to need something separated, like for example, in Pine Box Middle School, there was a was one thing that I added. I specifically asked one of the archetypes that we could have a layer for their suitcase or whatever so that I could i could have that suitcase removed if I needed to squeeze that piece of art onto a different piece. Or there's other reasons to have layers. Brandon is about to say something.
00:46:37
Speaker
Well, that made me think of something else, but the, the, the layers saying yes, absolutely. Because you might want to pull it off and, and like you said, fit when you're, that made me think of it. I don't want to forget when you're having your art done, consider the proximate place. You might want to put it e because if you have a character who's like, uh, uh, squatting down really wide, pointing their guns, like both arms stretched out and you wanted that to fit in a column on one side of the book. Yep.
00:47:05
Speaker
it's not going to work now. You got to know at least that artist needs to know, do they get to work with a tall rectangle? ah why You got to give them a little bit of ah a guide how you want that placement because otherwise, you're going to say, I really only want that to fit on one page or they're going to do a full page spread but put all the cool stuff right down the center line. A two-page spread, I mean, and then that ruins. you know So you got to think of like,
00:47:28
Speaker
kind of where you want it so that it can fit. It kind of ah reminds me a bit of like, um, like we used to sell another job I had way back when selling ad spaces in a, in a publication and we would have places different sizes.
00:47:43
Speaker
you know, within the layout and they were just placeholders. e So, so what I'm, what I'm understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like you probably want to have a sense of your layout and what kind of piece you're going to want in that spot. So you have like a placeholder there. That's the ideal. That's the ideal. That's a good idea. Yes.
00:48:01
Speaker
yes This not always gets done that way, but having it like Brandon says, having in mind how you want to use these pieces matters. If you're going to do an archetype, you're going to do an archetype card like like Peg does, you're going to want to work in a vertical rectangle.
00:48:18
Speaker
Right? Because you're not going to want to work in ah in a horizontal rectangle. You screw up your whole archetype card. Or square or whatever else. Yeah. if no Or you do eight by 10 cards like I do. So it fits. Exactly. It fits. Right? Or you're stuck doing them because you had your art like you didn't think of it in the first place. Right. But but there's there's also distribution. And this this this is an important thing. Like you want to distribute your art throughout the book.
00:48:44
Speaker
in a relatively even kind of way. and that It could be that you if you end up doing too much art too early, you could end up
Engaging the Community
00:48:55
Speaker
having too many art pieces for five pages and then nothing for 15 pages. that That corresponds to what the text is in the book. right and you kind of want that You want that art to speak to the text that's right next to it.
00:49:08
Speaker
right, if you can. And so thinking about that matters. Yeah. And like, like Brandon and I say, the ideal is to write it all first, put it into layout, make spaces for where you know you want the art, and then order the art, right? That's not how it's actually gonna completely work. Right. But it is a good way to work.
00:49:32
Speaker
Yeah. And if you can do that, at least to a certain extent, it will make your life a whole lot easier. It will make your art a lot cheaper because you won't have to end up like creating art that you you have too much of in certain places and not enough of in others. These are just things you need to think about.
00:49:52
Speaker
Makes sense. As a product, as as as a thing. and that's I just want to mention that before we get into it in detail in a future episode because it matters when you're actually ordering this art and having it done. Makes sense. Any other thoughts, Brandon? I will mention one thing only because it matters during the process of creating that you keep it in mind.
00:50:12
Speaker
It's towards marketing, but just keep it in mind that when you get a piece of art done and you ask the artist, first of all, if you can do this, because some don't want you to share a part that's not completed. But I would get the black and white line art and share it to kind of market myself. Look what's coming. yeah And then when I get the colors, share the color work. You get to use it twice instead of marketing it once as you're trying to like get attention sometimes. So you can put a blurb, here it is before it comes done and a blurb layer. So just yeah Keep in mind that that art can do more for you than just, you know, can you share it a little bit? I know that's more of the marketing side, but you kind of got to know that when you're working, which you can do with it. and it's something yeah and that's That gets into yeah licensing or ownership or how much control you have over the art, yeah blah, blah, blah. That's something that's a whole other subject. But yeah, all the all the art on on the Designing Problems podcast art
00:51:06
Speaker
peace piece that's on the podcast itself is from HonCluster. It's roughs from HonCluster that we included. But anyway, ah I think that's it, right? Christian, any parting thoughts? I think pretty much we've we've we've covered it pretty well. and And I want to thank Brandon again for yeah answering questions and and providing us, illuminating us with his knowledge and experience. great stuff Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
00:51:34
Speaker
Oh, one more thing. Brandon and I plan to share a little bit of our art ah for Starbreaker and for Honcluster and maybe show you a little bit of the progression ah that goes on. And we'll do it in the Discord service. So if you want to come and see a little bit more of that process, um we plan on doing a little bit of explanation and stuff and sharing some stuff there, just so you can see, like,
00:52:03
Speaker
visuals because you know podcasts aren't visuals. So we thought we might want to add that there. Thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. So if you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.