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Stories of Charakusa with Priti Wright and Lindsey Hamm
6.3k Plays11 months ago
In the latest episode of the Uphill Athlete podcast, Steve chats with Lindsey Hamm and Priti Wright about their experiences in the Charakusa Valley in Pakistan. The three reminisce about their time in the valley climbing the magnificent walls and peaks. Along with specific discussions on objectives and routes, the three also reflect on the relationships they built there and the warmth of the local people. From cultural learnings to volleyball games to movie nights, Steve, Lindsey and Priti discuss how the Charakusa and its people, have left a lifelong impression on the three of them. Listen to a conversation that will leave you yearning to travel to unique and untouched places.
Check out Steve's videos on K7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFyivVv-Kh4
Write to us at [email protected] or visit uphillathlete.com for more information on our offerings.
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Transcript
Introduction and Charakusa Valley Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. Our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Steve Halas and I'm your host today. And I have two very special guests, Pretty Right and Lindsay Ham. And we are going to talk about one of my favorite places in the whole world, the Charakusa Valley in the Karakorm Range of Pakistan.
00:00:36
Speaker
Pretty Lindsay, welcome to the Epilepsy podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Hi, thanks for having us. It's really amazing to be here. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.
Cultural and Climbing Experiences in Charakusa
00:00:49
Speaker
Yeah, so you are both here because you were both recently in the Charakusa Valley. And, you know, for those people that aren't familiar with this, can one of you kind of jump in and give a quick
00:01:02
Speaker
orientation to what this place exotic sounding as it is, what it is, where it is, and paint a little visual picture in people's minds of the Charakusa. So the Charakusa Valley is located in the Karakorum in the Gilgit-Baltistan area. It is at the end of a
00:01:26
Speaker
long valley. The jump-off point is the village of Huche, and then it's a three-day trek into the Charakusa Valley. The Charakusa has been a popular place for rock climbing and for alpine climbing, mostly because of the sheer steep peaks and the vastness of the terrain. It's super beautiful. I know I was super inspired to see pictures and really wanted to go.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, I would say the same thing. It was almost like a little Yosemite in my head and just like lots of climbing rock or if you want to take it to Alpine like with snow ice and rock and all the things you can kind of have the playground of all that in one setting. I think the valley is
00:02:21
Speaker
Um, brings a lot of different and special people, animals, flowers, and like wonderful porters that come with you as long as the, and with guides that, um, are part of the logistics company. You've got like such amazing culture in that one spot. That's like a limitless amount of climbing and, um, opportunity to meet new people within there.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, when I think of the Charakus as one of the main impressions I have, and I have not been there in a very long time, but I was there in 2003 and 2004 and 2007. And, you know, it's a dead end kind of valley. Like it's this huge, huge long valley, as you said, and the Charakus Glacier itself is
00:03:14
Speaker
pretty good size glacier and it's just the glacier just sort of ends in this ring of peaks and there's no there's no path at the top of the valley there's no easy way like it's just sheer walls of you know six and seven thousand meter or not seven thousand but six thousand meter peaks and
00:03:35
Speaker
It's quite an impressive sight. The first time I was there, the first time I was close was in 1999.
00:03:50
Speaker
trekking out from an attempt on Gashibom 4 and we trekked out over the what's called the Gondagorala and we came down to a little camp called Shaishju. I think I'm saying that right. And from there you can kind of see these crazy steep alpine rock
00:04:13
Speaker
peaks. It looks like the peaks of Patagonia only at Himalayan scale and you could kind of see these up in the head of the valley and we're just like what is that place and it was sort of this thing like oh yeah somebody we know like once trekked up there and there's no real information and not much has been climbed up there and
00:04:35
Speaker
it was just sort of this mystery. And for me, the charcoosa, a big piece of it was always, for me, was always that original feeling of mystery that I had, that it just was pretty untouched, at least when I first went there. And I know some of that has changed and I wanna get into that, but you do, you enter like this,
00:05:01
Speaker
I don't know, it really feels like something, a place that could be out of a Tolkien novel or something. It's just this incredible landscape and not the least of which is the places you spend a lot of your time base camp. You guys forgot to mention the bouldering. Did you go bouldering?
Personal Climbing Journeys and Community Support
00:05:21
Speaker
Oh, yeah, we want bouldering. Oh, yeah, magnificent bouldering and really fun with no pads. But if you have enough people and if you get the porters and some of the guides to come out with you, you got more hands on deck. You know, it was great. Me and Purdy went and Jeff went bouldering and she crushed. It was amazing to watch. And Lindsey crushed.
00:05:47
Speaker
No it was pretty fun like there was a good crew of us bouldering out there so yeah that valley brings like so much in this one like cul-de-sac you know you end up like a cul-de-sac of all the mountains around you you know and uh the striking naza and frahad you know and of course k6 and k7 in that area is just
00:06:17
Speaker
It's just, how can you really be mad out there to be honest? So Lindsay, tell us a little bit about your journey this year. You went, it was, as I recall, it's not your first time there. And, you know, what did you go to climb and what, what type of climbing, what was the climbing like?
00:06:38
Speaker
Yeah, so I kind of have to go back just, you know, the first time I went was actually I went twice in one year, you know, and I, um, by like a month in between of that year, like I went last year in end of August into September or sorry, August into September. And then this year we went a little bit earlier just to see if maybe the weather would be a little bit more stable in the July. Cause we had heard maybe it's a little less rainy, but,
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, last year we trekked in and went for a route. I still don't know what this mountain is called because we've tried to look in the AHAs, but you know the peak in between Spainster and Neza?
00:07:24
Speaker
that little tiny thing. I don't know what it's called because I've looked and I've asked Vince but we put up a route that started along the side of Vince's route and they just went to the estate on the skyline and we kind of went bust out left and went through the gut of this route or this peak. That was Vince and I got to get credit in there too. I was with Vince. Oh yeah you were there too so
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, it was Vincent Marco and I in 2007. Yeah. I know where you went has been sent me, or you sent us both pictures, I think before you met, like asking what had been, what we knew about, which is one of the things I love about, you know, climbing is getting emails like that from people who are still exploring and checking some cases out. And so what was that, what was that climb like? Was there more of a rock climb, more of a mixed climb, more of an alpine climb?
00:08:19
Speaker
It was just rock. It was all rock climbing. It was awesome. More slabby feature. Had a little bit of a roof climb and then very, very a sparse gear. And it felt like I was a bit in the Black Canyon climbing. I had trained in the Black prior to coming out there just because I
00:08:40
Speaker
You know, Josh Wharton always says, you know, if you want to go to Pakistan, train in the black. And so I went and I've spent a lot of time in the Black Canyon. And with this route, we called it pull down the sky at the end of it. And, you know, had really techy climbing, I would say a little bit of off with in there, but it was more techy slab climbing. And then
00:09:06
Speaker
When we got back down to the ground that evening, we pulled the rope and it just started raining.
00:09:12
Speaker
raining for a long time after that but it was awesome because it was all like such a beautiful moment because we sent this route and you know just it was cool it was just like all the porter or I'm sorry our guide came and got us and the cook and gave us cookies and tea and held our bat packs it was great
00:09:37
Speaker
And then, um, so it was just like a really nice feeling to feel loved from two people that we just met. And then like really wanting to make sure we were good and like giving us juice and cookies. And I just thought that it was such a welcoming feeling. And, um, it was a start of a relationship I built with one of the guys, Elias.
00:10:00
Speaker
And I spend a lot of time chatting with him on WhatsApp. And his wife gives me the best hugs I've ever been received by anybody aside from my mom. It was the most warming feeling I've ever had from a person. And the first time I went, which was last year, we stopped at Elias's house. And I met his whole family. And I got to see them this year, too.
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah, so last year was a little bit different with the climbing, but we also did your route tasty talking and it was awesome.
00:10:38
Speaker
I thought that it was super spicy in some spots and really fun route finding. I was like, man, the fact that they found this line is incredible. It was really a special feeling to top out two peaks. For me, I thought that was a bit lucky. I was like, wow.
00:11:04
Speaker
I'm sure people come out here and don't send anything and have to come back. And I just got two peaks. And on one, the mesa is like so beautiful. It's striking, right? Every morning you get out of your tent and you see this beautiful pyramid and you're like, oh my gosh, am I really seeing this every day?
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'll have to link a picture of Nacer on the post with this because it really is. It's like this giant pyramid of Giza made out of granite that is almost 18,000 feet tall. But it also offers pretty moderate climbing by those standards for most of it.
00:11:47
Speaker
Totally. Well, we tried this year when we were going back, I had, you know, talked to Vince, I think I spoke to you about some new lines on the same formation. And so last year on one of our regular days, I mean, another, my partner, Dakota put up like a
00:12:08
Speaker
single pitch. It was like 5'11", 5'12". But neither one of us got to finish it. It was on the west side of NAZA. And we were gonna just start a new route, starting from this really cool cliff band. You know, it's like you can put up sport climbs and tri climbs and make like a little mini crag right there. It's pretty spectacular.
00:12:29
Speaker
That was our vision and
Challenges and Weather in Climbing Expeditions
00:12:32
Speaker
I was like, well, next year I want to go back and extend that, which was going into the Southwest Ridge of Neza, that 511 you put up with Mark and Vince. We put six pitches up into the Southwest Ridge and then was trying to complete the route, but we kept getting shut down by weather. We would get these afternoon showers.
00:12:56
Speaker
And it was a little bit difficult to finish that. And what we originally want to do is half of the Southwest Ridge and then bust out onto the face on the West side still of it. And it just didn't happen, but I do see the vision and maybe, you know, sometimes it's fishing, not catching and these things, you know, and you just kind of have to like be patient and enjoy the process of meeting everybody, you know, like not staying in your tent and enjoying the group of people of
00:13:27
Speaker
You know like the cooks and we're all playing volleyball outside in the at a Base camp and there's just more to the climb more than just climbing there, you know, you can Take pictures of all the flowers and then research them later and you know figure out what was out there that was comparative to sometimes the cascade flowers, you know, and so it's just like a lot of it just felt like home at some point, you know and
00:13:57
Speaker
So I went back and also to look at stuff on Far All Far East and other opportunities to extend my alpinism, you know? But I was more on the rock side of everything, just because I wanted to go rock climbing. Just another place where you can spend the rest of your life climbing, and that one's pretty tight.
00:14:20
Speaker
And I have to say, in my journals, I have some pressed flowers from way back when. But wildflowers in there are incredible. And it's just so beautiful. Tell me, Priti, about your experience. You've climbed a lot in this lower range. You've climbed K6 a few years ago. You got really high on K7 Central, I guess. What are we calling that now?
00:14:49
Speaker
What are you calling that now? Last year, you went back again. This year, you did some training with myself and coach Martin Zohar. You've been around the block here on the Cherakusans, these K6 and K7 Massifs. Tell us a little bit about that.
00:15:14
Speaker
Yeah, I'm kind of on the opposite page of Lindsay. I am not doing like the rock climbing strategy. And although we were there, we were both in the Chargusa Valley last year. We didn't see each other last year, but we hung out a lot this year. And I would have loved to get to climb on
00:15:37
Speaker
a couple of the low-letter peaks like Nacer Brak. Of course, I think everyone wants to climb it. It looks like a beautiful, perfect pyramid. Who wouldn't want to climb on that?
00:15:48
Speaker
But me and my husband, Jeff, focused on trying to climb K7 Central, which is still unclimbed. Last year, we put up a new route, although we didn't make it to the summit of anything, so it's hard to call it like a new route. But we went to explore the north face of K7, because
00:16:12
Speaker
We saw some pictures from, well actually we saw some pictures that Graham Zimmerman passed along to us from Kate Ballard of that side of the peak and it looks pretty fascinating and we strung together what we thought might be a line that would go and last year had no idea if it would actually go until we went out to check it out.
00:16:33
Speaker
But the route is really circuitous. It goes all the way around the Massif to try to access K7 Central. And it was amazing to get some of your pictures, Steve, from your incredible solo and second ascent of K7 Main because it helps give us an idea of what we might see on the final rock pyramid.
00:16:56
Speaker
So we made the ascent up the north side following couloirs on the north ridge and got onto the K-7 glacier, which is at like 6,400 meters. So it's a pretty high glacier, but it's huge. You could land a plane on it.
00:17:14
Speaker
I've seen your pictures. I mean, I was at your slideshow in Arterix store in Seattle last fall. I mean, it's incredible. I was never on that side of the Massif. I never even saw it from where I was. So it's really cool to see the pictures that you and Jeff took and just hear your adventures and so cool on so many levels. But yeah, so yeah, it's a huge flat, like,
00:17:43
Speaker
It's actually kind of a hanging glacier, I assume, right? Like doesn't, does it just like calve off into that valley over there to the north somewhere? I don't even know what happened. Yeah, it kind of calves off, which is why none of the routes directly from like the Kabiri Glacier look super promising. It's all kind of like falling off that direction. But the trouble with the route is it takes a long time to go all the way around the mountain to climb.
00:18:12
Speaker
three days just to get to the base of the technical climbing. We're going up and over Kiberi Pass and then down again and losing significant amounts of elevation just to get to the base.
00:18:25
Speaker
And then it's a bit of a trek across the glacier. But then last year we climbed up to the call between Central and Maine and we had amazing weather and we got to climb pretty far up the granite, the last steep rock pyramid to get to the summit. But we didn't have enough rock climbing gear. We had just had our mountaineering boots, no rock climbing shoes.
00:18:49
Speaker
and we were running out of time, the weather was coming in, so we turned around. And this year we did the same route again and got to the same spot again, and the weather was so bad, the whole face was covered in snow and ice, and it's so steep, I don't think it's really climbable in the conditions we had. It was so snowy and so icy.
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, from the pictures I saw of you, yeah, from the previous attempt for the rock climbing you did, it looked like proper rock climbing. I know no question about that, like real cracks and real jamming and real fifth-class rock climbing, not just like some steppy, icy sort of fun mixed terrain, but blocky, it wasn't like that at all.
00:19:41
Speaker
When we saw what conditions it was in, we kind of wanted to go up to K7 main and summit that and go down your route. But avalanche conditions were too high and the snow was just way too loose. It had been snowing every single day for 10 days.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's worth noting because I've talked to a couple, I've talked to one guy that I coached who climbed K2 last summer and having another conversation with one of our coaches, Martin, who you briefly met.
00:20:17
Speaker
who was attempting a FKT on Broad Peak but you know it's just the weather this year in the Karakoram was was tough and the weather can be like that in the Karakoram you can just have summers where there's just never really you never really get a break and it's never really in my experience at least it's never really like
00:20:40
Speaker
really bad. Like you might get an Alaska where you get a big storm and you get lots and lots of snow and it's just kind of hard to, let's say, keep your tent from collapsing. But it's also never really good, never good enough to climb and it's just wet. It can be really wet. And yeah, that's actually kind of how I got to the Charcooza the first time when I actually went up there.
00:21:04
Speaker
was in 2003 on the way out from one of those summers, attempting a peak called Mashabrum. We went out over the Gondagora law again and ended up back in Shaishcho
00:21:19
Speaker
But that time we planned to go up to K-7 base camp and just check it out. And it was wet that season and stuff. But I did the same thing you did, Lindsay. I actually went back to Islamabad, changed my plane ticket, got a $50 trekking permit, and went back up there for a number of weeks just by myself with just a cook.
00:21:44
Speaker
But in those days, there was nobody else around. It would have been nice to have had other climbers around, actually. I mean, maybe not, actually. I don't regret anything about my experience. I was up there completely by myself. Nobody was really climbing up there on a regular basis. As far as I understand the history of the climbing, there was the Japanese that made the first ascent of K7 in, I think, 1981. And then there weren't any climbers in there for a long time.
00:22:14
Speaker
a British climber who you actually met apparently. Is that right? Or was he there this summer again? Or what's it, Die? Oh yeah, Die Lampert. Yeah, he wasn't here this year. But yeah, we got to meet Die Lampert and his son-in-law and partner, their climbing partner last year.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, he's still going there. I mean, he'd been, when I was there in 2003, 2004, I think he'd already made like four attempts on K7, four separate expeditions. And, you know, I know Angela Haas had been on a trip in there to try to climb some of the peaks on the opposite side of the, the glacier. Yeah. She was on, I think they successfully put up a route more, a big wall style on Fahad. On Fahad. Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:03
Speaker
Oh, okay, so on Fahad. Okay, I was never really completely clear out where that was. But there just wasn't much going on. It wasn't really on the map.
00:23:17
Speaker
And there was another kind of, I'd say sort of spooky thing that happened is there had been a Hungarian alpinist who had gone up there by himself and it just disappeared and was never found. And they'd never found, like his passport surfaced like three years later and some, you know, somewhere got sold to somebody, but like, you know, he disappeared. Like nobody was ever found. He was climbing up in there somewhere. Nobody knows what happened to him.
00:23:46
Speaker
So that was basically all the information that was around back then. I sound like that old guy telling him, I'm back in the old days when I used to be climbing. But it was really just a different time. And I'm actually really
00:24:09
Speaker
With these places that you love so much, in a way it doesn't feel fair to keep them a secret. I love it so much because it is so incredible and it's like even a place I want to take my kids someday. Even if I just go trekking back there and maybe go climb one easy rock route.
00:24:28
Speaker
attempt, as you said, go fishing a little bit just for some rock climbing or something. I would love to do that sometime. Tell me about the scene now. Maybe a scene isn't the right word, but there's a number of expeditions there every summer with people attempting a variety of objectives from hard rock climbs, hard free climbing, all the way up to this sort of high altitude alpinism.
Impact of Growing Climber Interest
00:24:57
Speaker
It seems like every couple of years there's like a resurgence in interest in the Characusa Valley. We're probably right in the middle of that. There seems like there's a lot of people interested in a variety of objectives. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It was last year. It was just me and I guess.
00:25:12
Speaker
You and your husband were there by themselves. And then I was there with the three other gentlemen that I was climbing with. And then this year it was like 16 people in K-7 base camp. It was, I mean, I had a volume... 16 climbers? 16 people. Yeah, I was busy. So 16, are you counting guides and... No, one six. One six climbers, 16.
00:25:43
Speaker
16 climbers plus, I don't know how five, five cooks, five guides. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was getting into that. Yeah. The, uh, there's just so many people, you know, we have, yeah. So many porters coming in, coming out, they were doing multiple loads, same porters. And I just have like a whole nother respect for those humans. Like them going in and out. Not, not at all. And they,
00:26:13
Speaker
you know, with the clothes that they have and the shoes, I'm like, Oh, I have like the best shoes on and they have like, they're, you know, just regular plastic, you know, just normal shoes that they sold at the market, you know, and just last year, they didn't even have those shoes. They were all falling apart. Jeff and I like bought new shoes for porters.
00:26:38
Speaker
Oh, that's good. Okay. I gave my shoes an extra pair. So I do the same thing. I gave shoes and a bunch of clothes. Like this year I gave like sleeping bag and jackets and stuff that I see. I think that's so great. You know that when we can like get off of that and
00:26:56
Speaker
see that, you know, they've put in so much time and effort to get all of our stuff out there. I want to show more gratitude and just just a tip, you know, like, and they appreciate it, you know, and they remember you.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, this year Jeff and I had the same cook and cooks assistant as we did last year, Ibrahim and cooks assistant Idris. And it was fantastic because they were wearing the shoes we gave them last year and we're making the same jokes we made the year before. Idris had another baby while he was gone on expedition again.
00:27:32
Speaker
Ridiculous. And for context, this is all like at the height of basically Rainier. That's where base camp is. It's at like 6,365 meters. So there's no snow on the ground, but it's really high altitude. Yeah. I mean, you're
00:27:54
Speaker
you are burning calories while you're sleeping, you know, like, and it's, that's, before I go into the Cherokee, so I mean, you did uphill athlete, like I did my own training program to build muscle. And because I knew that I was going into a place that I'd be, you know, even if I'm going up to 18,000, I mean, you're just working hard just being there, you know, and
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It was really fantastic to get to train with Martin Zor and uphill athlete. And also I did do an acclimatization program here in Seattle, which is fantastic because I got to base camp one
00:28:34
Speaker
with no illnesses because my body wasn't so taxed. And then two, feeling pretty well acclimated. And after like one day at base camp, Jeff and I went up to climb Sulu Peak, which is like the acclimatization peak, 6,000 meters. And we got to the top and slept at the top with no problem, like 10 days out of Seattle, which is at sea level. So I call that like huge success. I'm really impressed.
00:29:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're figuring out a lot in the last couple of years about how to better, like, we don't, of course, understand, we're going to do a whole other podcast series about this in the future, but I think that we don't understand why it works, but we're figuring out more and more about what works with people, working with people like you pretty well. And it's a lot of this sort of trial and error. We're not really sure, you know,
00:29:31
Speaker
Martin's been doing, you know, also he's involved in research on the research level and he's doing a master's thesis around this sort of normal barrack hypoxia training and how to, what is actually the mechanism. And he has a certain theory that he's testing and he's one of his own test subjects in his study. And I think we are getting closer to figuring out some of these things. And it's,
00:29:59
Speaker
ideal for this kind of scenario where it's not like you're going to be acclimated enough to go to like 8,000 meters without supplemental oxygen, but for going to 6,000 meters, which is actually, to be honest, most of the peaks in the world, you're going to have a real advantage.
00:30:20
Speaker
and be able to. But away from the technical stuff, I'm really fascinated. I want to hear from each of you more about your experience with the culture. And I'll also say, you know, one of the
00:30:37
Speaker
One of the pieces of feedback I've always had when I've talked about climbing in Pakistan and trekking in Pakistan is always people like, oh, isn't it dangerous? And I've always been a big kind of proponent of adventure travel in Pakistan and particularly in the Karabar Range.
00:30:56
Speaker
I just think it's so incredible. It's such a unique landscape and there's such a unique culture. And I'm so grateful for climbing that it opened that door for me where I was able to, you know, at a young age, like see these different cultures and ways of living that are completely different than anything I would have experienced otherwise. And I feel like you two have an even additional window because as women, you are able to
00:31:22
Speaker
you know, step into and see a part of the world and the culture there that I would never be allowed to see as a male. So, you know, can you talk to me about how you experienced that? And, you know, I mean, outside of the climbing for a second, just stepping into the kind of lens of maybe tourists, I don't know, for lack of a better word. Yeah, I think like
00:31:51
Speaker
being an outsider of all the things. I'm from Texas, so I'm so happy about climbing because it brought me to this place I never would have ever thought I'd ever even have a chance to climb out here. And then on top of that, to be a woman within the climbing realm is already a
00:32:14
Speaker
huge step forward for a lot of us, even in the guiding world and that are women and dealing with a lot of patriarchy and like, how do we, what space do we have, you know, improving ourselves within these spectrums. But, you know, people said the same thing, like, aren't you scared of going to Pakistan? Isn't it dangerous? And yeah, all of it is, I could say a lot of things are dangerous right now.
00:32:42
Speaker
but when i the first time i went i think it was a little bit of a different experience because i was with four men and then i was just you know i was around them and maybe the
00:32:54
Speaker
Some of the things that I saw this year compared to last year was definitely different. There was a different feeling when I was there and with a lot of people maybe staring at me. And one could get really nervous about that, but I was like, well, this is, I mean, it's like a different stare. I think they're just curious. I'm a white woman and a climber and I've got big muscles and I'm with four dudes.
00:33:23
Speaker
I think there's just curiosity. And then I also think there's curiosity of the women looking at me as well and being like, who is she? Why is she here? These are like gossips of their towns of like seeing women climbers and climbers. And I think that my experience the first time was really great. I had a guide named, again, it was Elias. We had him twice.
00:33:50
Speaker
And he looked at me, he was like, hey, are you nervous about people staring at you? And my guide was very noticeable of that, you know, asking me, he's like, let me know if you're uncomfortable. And I thought I was super respectful, you know, like, he was doing his job, I was the only woman there. And then he goes, if anybody touches you, let me know.
00:34:12
Speaker
because we don't do that. And I go, he's like, we are good people of Pakistan. I'm like, okay, like it just felt very, I got lucky to get this person that was going to be my guide, because I felt very much backed by this male, you know, and he was really good at his job. That's why I hired him again.
00:34:32
Speaker
So I think this year was a little different. It was four women and one male. And we definitely had one issue with one of the porters following us into the bathroom and looking at us. And that happened, you know? And we told the guide, and the guide made every single one of the porters come sit down and have a chat with them. And we didn't see that person again.
00:35:00
Speaker
And I thought that it was handled really well. So I did feel very well, like I felt protected and respected in that sense by my group of people, especially I had been there twice in one year. And I think that, you know, with that violation, I didn't, I don't think I lost like
00:35:23
Speaker
I didn't feel like I was going to lose any trust with these people because I felt like they did their job and got the person out and made everyone feel comfortable again. And I think as these more and more tourists come and come climb and stuff, we're going to have to deal with that as women in certain circumstances.
00:35:47
Speaker
We're not covered up. And you know, I wear long sleeves, but maybe my hair is not covered up. And I'm a different human to them. And there's not a lot of us. And I think that this year was pretty unique because we had four, five, six, seven women.
00:36:07
Speaker
out in base camp this season. Yeah, we might have almost over numbered them in. Yeah. And, you know, a lot more porters coming in, a lot more guides and cooks and I played volleyball with all of them every day.
00:36:24
Speaker
you know like as much as I was curious about them they were curious about me and I got to know them and hang out in the cook tent and hang you know and try to get some type of dialogue going on with them you know and know where they're from and I just felt like the connection there for me was um really genuine
00:36:46
Speaker
And I think that there's, in every place you go, there's genuine people and there's not genuine people, regardless. So I felt like there was a lot of genuine humans at base camp, like Sam, your, uh, Captain Sam.
00:37:03
Speaker
Very respectful. Very respectful. I learned lots of things from him. Yeah, and like he spotted me and I think he grabbed maybe, he thought he grabbed my stomach or something or an inappropriate part and he was just like, I'm so sorry. He's like, no, no, you get me from breaking my ankle just now. It's okay. And then he built that beautiful spa. The cold orange in the river that he lined with beautiful rocks.
Women's Role and Education Initiatives
00:37:30
Speaker
It looked like a piece of,
00:37:34
Speaker
architecture built out of the rocks in the valley. Yeah, it was it was pretty wonderful. I think that like
00:37:42
Speaker
even with the kids there and the young girls, and they're all trying to talk to you in English, and we're trying to talk, tell them to teach us Urdu or some vaulty, and it just felt pretty great, you know? And I think that it was different experiences. I don't know if it was because I was with more men versus women, but, you know, that's just how it goes sometimes.
00:38:11
Speaker
And I've always had a slightly different experience because I've been with Jeff, my husband, and he's a man who can handle the man things. And it's just kind of the way how it has been in the past, I suppose, where you just
00:38:26
Speaker
if there is the man in the group that's the one everyone will talk to. But I see changes and I always try to meet the ladies out there and I met Amina Hanif who's a climber and her little sister and they had just returned from climbing Gondagora Peak out there with their dad.
00:38:45
Speaker
People have interest in this and she's gone climbing internationally as well. I have also been a part of the ICRA fund that Genevieve Walsh and Doug Chabot are helping educate girls in specific in the Huche Valley and other places. I got to meet Nasreen
00:39:07
Speaker
who is going for her PhD in math, and she's from USA. She's the first woman to graduate with a math degree, and she's going for her PhD now. And it's just amazing to see this kind of shift where I think it's more than just foreign ladies who are seen as more capable of doing things besides the normal womanly functions and treated with respect. Yeah.
00:39:32
Speaker
I had to piggyback, we as well are part of the, we worked with the ICRA fund this year and raised two grand for the women. And we got to meet some of the women that have their master's degrees in Houshay and they're the teachers. And we met some of them and it's a wonderful time. Yeah. I think Purdy and I both were on a,
00:39:54
Speaker
got interviewed and both said the same thing like we were both funding and helping out similar women and it was really cool to hear and uh yeah we also donated like school supplies like fifteen hundred dollars worth of school supplies and the teachers came and divvied up that to the schools and i think to add on to pretty like it is like we are not just you know
00:40:20
Speaker
We're far more than a lot of people expect in this world as a woman and I really love being out there to see them see us, you know, go and track and carry packs and see
00:40:36
Speaker
Um, maybe they can spark something with them, you know, like spark their curiosity to go climbing, you know, and there's, I think Brittany knows that there's so much we could do as climbers when we're out there to introduce that. And if it's to meet the women or meet the kids, meet all the individuals, I think that's a huge part of it, you know, and I don't think a lot of climbers do that. I also felt like Captain Sam
00:41:03
Speaker
Captain Nipja's song was so respectful to everyone. I feel like personally, I learned a lesson of just how to treat people in general. I came back with that here and I'm like, I'm just going to treat everyone with that level of respect. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that was the best smile every day, right? Like, God, it was like just huge. And you're like,
00:41:29
Speaker
could never be sad when I was around him. And he gave me a hug a couple of times. It was like the best hug. If anyone was struggling to do anything, he would immediately just jump in to try to help them do whatever they're doing. This is our liaison officer, me and Jeff, and also Tom and Ted, who are out there.
00:41:53
Speaker
And he had such a swagger when he'd walk. So you knew, because Priti and Jeff and Tad and Tom were all up on the upper camp, and we were down below. And you would see Sam come in. And you're like, oh, that's totally Sam walking. And he has a pain. He just has a swagger like, oh, cool. Sam's coming over. I'm excited to see him. And then he went off. He walked quite quickly.
00:42:20
Speaker
And then he, like, would get the whole crew of, like, cooks and porters to, like, play volleyball. And then he and I would, like, try to get in this match of spiking the ball at each other. And it was just really fun sometimes. Even if you couldn't climb, there was just, like, so much activity this year, you know? And it was nice to go and we'll walk over to Priti and Jeff and say hi to them.
00:42:48
Speaker
Um, they had movies which was great for teen jeff had a full on uh theater and their investants We had two movie nights and one dance night Yes And the porters or no i'm sorry the porters are the cooks and the guides who came and danced with us and watched movies with us It was awesome
00:43:14
Speaker
I learned some dance moves, that's for sure. There was a couple of them. I was like, all right, I'm going to use that back in the States. But you talk about community. I mean, the whole world is surrounded by community. And it felt like we had this big one this year. And I think there was tough times and good times and everyone could
00:43:37
Speaker
find some wisdom within each other even if it wasn't with someone who knows your full language, you know? And it was cool. It was definitely a different feeling this year for me, a different vibe. Me too. It was really amazing to go out there and see the same people again. And these people know our other friends. It really is quite a community. It felt different this year.
00:44:05
Speaker
I got to meet Rasul who I think was probably made famous by Steve Swenson and all his books and talks about where he just mentioned Rasul constantly. So I got to meet the man.
00:44:22
Speaker
The man, the myth, the legend, yeah, Russell. I met Russell on the trip with Steve Swenson in 1999 and G4, and then he was my cook on a number of expeditions along with another guy, Frieda. And yeah, it's so interesting. It's so warming and satisfying for me to hear you two speak about this because all of the things that you're relaying and talking about,
00:44:50
Speaker
particularly around your interactions with your liaison officers, with their porters, with the people you hired to help you prepare meals and base camp and these things. They're all exactly like the memories I have. They're just like these wonderful memories of these really genuine
00:45:11
Speaker
Interactions with really genuinely good humans that you know, we struggled to communicate oftentimes but that was what was always really clear was that there was like a good heart in those in those people and
00:45:28
Speaker
You know, I just, you know, whether it's, I've also participated in, I mean, granted the technology was obviously different. We had like the Sony Walkmans with, you know, little portable speakers that ran on AA batteries. But, you know, we also had dance nights. Movie nights were not quite a thing yet back then in terms of like the technology, but
00:45:51
Speaker
you know, all these things that you're talking about, like raising money, buying school supplies, giving away your equipment. Like we did all of those things. You know, there's a girl, you know, as you two know, I mean, you know, there's a school that I've been supporting there for, I don't know, most of my years of a girl's school in one of the villages. And one of those students is now in, a girl is now in medical school. And her dream is to go back and be the first
00:46:21
Speaker
female medical doctor in the Houshey Valley and you know, we have
00:46:28
Speaker
You know, I have other stories where there's one in our cook feeder who, you know, I supported his three sons through their educations. They went through private schools and then they went to university. One of them was an attorney in Islamabad and argued a case in front of the Supreme Court in Pakistan. One of them is a WordPress developer and works in tech and lives in Lahore. The other, you know, their father needed new replacements last year and they just like did it. Like they have the means to like organize it.
00:46:58
Speaker
do it pay for it and now their father who spent his life starting as a porter and then a cook who now needs double knee replacements got it and he and this is a guy who lives literally in a stone hut with no electric light i mean and he got a double knee replacement last year and they they call me on christmas eve like on whatsapp video calls and like stuff you know
00:47:21
Speaker
You know that here it is I haven't seen those guys since 2007 and they're still staying in contact and they still care about me and they still want to see pictures of my family and Want to hear what I'm up to and I still want to hear about them too. It's just so so cool right now now like
00:47:42
Speaker
you know, they're just as likely to comment on a LinkedIn post of mine as they are. Which is just crazy, right? Like who would have thought that like, you know, here we'd be on conversing at this totally different level, this totally different means. And I think you have lifelong friends is what I'm saying. And that is something that's really, really special.
00:48:05
Speaker
There's this portal how we can go to these small villages across the world and meet people in person. And then, although now everyone is on the internet, people in Hoosier are learning, this is Instagram, this is Facebook. It's so important to stay in communication. But when you meet people in person and spend this amount of time with them in harsh conditions, you just build a family and a connection that's
00:48:34
Speaker
spreads across the world. Yeah, I think that is like my favorite part of the Expeditions, you know, like How can I give back? I'm there, you know, I feel like that's super fun to meet all the all the kids and the guides families or the cooks families if we can I'm like, you know
00:48:58
Speaker
I've been asked by Ilyas to come live with him for six months in the house. And I'm like, I love you. That is amazing. Just to have that much invitation. He invited me to his son's wedding last year. And it was so close for me to, I think I was taking my Alpine exam so I couldn't go. But it was just like,
00:49:22
Speaker
wow like i got invited to a wedding you know and it's just that endless friendship that i'll have with him and you know i'm gonna continue to every year that i go i'm gonna hire him and i get to see their family and i get to see all of his sons grow up he's got a little son right now
00:49:42
Speaker
grew like a whole foot since last year, two feet since I've seen them like, Oh my gosh. And you know, I just, I love it. And like this, see the kids again, like every year and they're like, I remember you and you're just, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's a different feeling. And I enjoyed, I enjoy my second family is what I call them for sure.
00:50:07
Speaker
Yeah, in 15 years from now, you're gonna be like seeing those kids are gonna be grown up and in university and in professional roles, and you're gonna be like emailing them for advice on WordPress programming or something. It's just like, it is such a circle, it's incredible. It's so great to hear that that piece of that still truly lives on and the experiences that you two are having over there.
00:50:36
Speaker
Yeah, and like before Sun, our logistics manager, he is amazing. So what a funny guy. His son knows like four languages and he spoke all of them while we were out in Condi.
00:50:51
Speaker
told me what he was doing at the university and it's quite impressive. I was very jealous of all the languages he knows because I'm like, I wish I had done that. It's inspiring and it makes me want to try harder with
00:51:12
Speaker
language, you know, and other things I do abroad. Me too, definitely. And also just how happy everyone is and satisfied and also just inviting, like very kind to everyone. You don't get that everywhere. At least in, at least in the Huche Valley. Everyone is extremely inviting and friendly.
00:51:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that that is something that I have seen and I know others have experienced throughout this sort of Baltistan region, which is this little upper right-hand corner of the current Pakistani border, outside of Kashmir, but not all the way into Gilgit and some of these other areas that are still the Karakoram.
00:52:11
Speaker
but that, you know, people are just super, super genuine. And one of the things that I think is interesting too is if we, if we turn this around and we think about it from their perspective and they were doing a podcast about the people that came to their home valleys and came to their weddings or came to their schools,
00:52:38
Speaker
what they would be talking about, what they learned, and what their perspective is. And one of the things I've noticed over the years is they genuinely have a perspective on climbing and on what we do as climbers, as alpinists, as whatever we are, explorers of our little mountain worlds. And they value it. And they see the beauty of it.
00:53:08
Speaker
I think that while they, for the most part, don't long for it themselves with obvious exceptions, they really do appreciate it and really do appreciate that we come over there and are climbing in their mountains and they feel really honored by that. Their mountains are really incredible, let's face it.
00:53:30
Speaker
Yeah, some of the there's stuff right outside of who she on the right side going to say show. You could find so much rock climbing from
Scenery, Wildlife, and Future of Charakusa Climbing
00:53:41
Speaker
there. And yeah, they just live in such a paradise in my eyes, you know, just because of the sunsets and sunrises that come out of there.
00:53:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think all the animals that you see, I would love to see an ibex in real life, but it only got me to some poop and some skulls. They're not fair. We have some of you in the Charakusa, but, um, you know, there weren't as many people around. I think when there's that many people, I bet, I bet they hightail it out of there. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. So, you know,
00:54:23
Speaker
If we have to kind of think about the, I don't know, next 15 years of climbing in the Charakusa, what does it hold? How much longer can it hold this sort of special place or this mystique that it seems to still have? What are your thoughts? What do you see happening in terms of the climbers, the popularity? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
00:54:51
Speaker
It seems like a really complex environment. Just because of the difficulty in getting there, I think it'll stay for the next 10 years. Still not too crazy crowded.
00:55:09
Speaker
And also, it depends upon the Pakistan government and how many people they allow to get permits for different areas. I know that there have been people who wanted to get permits to nearby valleys and they couldn't get it. And it also depends upon when, like,
00:55:27
Speaker
Starlink comes to Pakistan and everyone suddenly has excellent internet and houche and they're like, okay, maybe I'll jump out of here and go somewhere more profitable. I think things like that might end up changing the scene a little bit quicker than the access will still be difficult. There's so many landslides just across the road to get there. What do you think, Lindsay? Yeah, I think that.
00:55:57
Speaker
I mean, she put that perfectly, you know, with what's going on and the logistics of it all is super hard.
Preserving Adventure and Alpinism Spirit
00:56:04
Speaker
And it's like a year planning, right? Yeah, with like, not a whole lot of climbing often. Yeah, like, you know, the amount of work that goes into planning this is a huge thing, you know, with training with money with, uh,
00:56:25
Speaker
putting all the parts together, talking to the companies, the government, the visas, all that. It's a lot. I think we have a bit more time before it becomes too crazy.
00:56:43
Speaker
The more people climb out there, there's more beta. It was actually really fun not to have any real beta on tasty talking and just go up there and see if I could pick and find your line instead of not getting off too. I thought that was a really special part of that.
00:57:02
Speaker
Like, of course, I'm going to put stuff up in the AHA, but I do think it needs to stay a little wild. And the fact that, you know, like I want beta out there, but it's also really fun to like let it be, you know, and. There's no places with super topos. I mean, I'm down for that, but not not in this place for some reason. I just want it to be what it is, you know, and like that adventure and was like.
00:57:29
Speaker
the most I've ever had in my life, both times. And I had to really try hard and really swim through a lot of terrain that I may have not really experienced before. And I think that with it being very wild, having the experience and the skills to be out there is a huge factor that might keep it still a bit secluded.
00:57:59
Speaker
and real it's not like it's not going to your backyard crag alpinism it's like even the rock climbing out there is um one to make you pucker a little bit you know and
00:58:16
Speaker
make you really think and how do I get through this terrain and how, you know, do I have the experience to do it? It's just being prepared. And that's that year of planning, you know, and figure out your team. And then, you know, that's that there's so many parts to it. So I think that, yeah, it's not going to Indian Creek and planning a trip with your friends or Yosemite, you know, it's a hard time getting back there, a hard time getting permits and
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah, everything has to align at the end of the day. Yeah, I like that idea that it sort of stays, as you said, as it is. And, you know, I sort of feel like a really great route doesn't need a topo because the route, you know, we didn't
00:59:07
Speaker
put up the route, the route was already there. We just sort of dusted it off and discovered the passage. The route was there all along and been there for thousands of years. So why should anyone need a topo to tell exactly where it goes? It's pretty, like you said,
00:59:26
Speaker
You know, you just can follow follow your nose and let the mountain show you where you should climb and that's exactly what what happens so much and like real what I consider sort of traditional alpinism and I don't care if that alpinism is climbed on rock or ice or mixed or snow or whatever but just that kind of the spirit of alpinism is really like adventure and discovering and uncovering and
00:59:53
Speaker
fishing more than catching and all of those things. And it's so lovely to hear that this spirit of alpinism really persists in this really magical kingdom, as I think of it.
01:00:09
Speaker
I think it's also really hard for me to say how many more people will go out there because there's a bunch of people who go out and never say anything at all. We met a team of Japanese people to climb K7 last year. They didn't mention it anywhere. Haven't seen a single note that they went out there. As well as the other team, the wash team. Yeah, that is very true. There's some dark horses who just don't
01:00:39
Speaker
you know, put the topo out there. Sometimes I wish they would, just so you know, was this climbed before or not? I don't know. But like, I think Pete, what's his, I'm sorry, messing up his last name, Pete, he does that, I believe, where he's gone out quite a
01:01:02
Speaker
I mean, he's been all over the place. And he has definitely said, I believe in an interview that he doesn't put out some of his topos because it's like, let somebody else find that line. And because the line has been there, like you were saying, Steve, and let them have their own adventure. And it's kind of like that's still that spirit of that is like,
01:01:21
Speaker
I was like, am I going to worry about getting on somebody else's route? Let me feel it. Let them out and call to me a little bit. I bet Steve and all of them are happy that I'm climbing on this piece of rock and feeling what they felt in the early 2000s now or in 2023.
01:01:43
Speaker
and just feeling that adventure. And I think that that's like a very special thing in the alpinism. You never know if you're really on route sometimes and it doesn't matter on your own way. Yeah, exactly. It kind of doesn't matter because it's about the experience you're having right then, not whether or not it's not about right or wrong.
01:02:05
Speaker
on root or off root. And it's also fun. Like I've also done that. And then, you know, climb something and then not really talk about it. But there's, there's a fixed peaton, like 80% of the way up there in the middle of the, just, just a little clue, just sort of like.
Generational Connections and Climbing Legacy
01:02:22
Speaker
you know in case anybody ever comes here again here's a little here's a little hint but it's kind of like blue sometimes i feel like when i'm asking everyone for beta like asking you vent steve mart you know like
01:02:39
Speaker
to put all these pieces together to figure out something like an objective to do even if I'm not really looking for specifically a line but like just having all this like all these clues to get me to whatever's calling me for that objective you know and I think that was a really fun part of getting to know some of these some of you guys that have been climbing out there for a long time you know and
01:03:04
Speaker
Um, and now, you know, getting responses about the climbs that I'm, you know, that I ventured on and having these, like, um, you know, I had Steve send me a message. I was like, all the memories out there and the Cheracusa, you know, and just, uh, it was cool. It's just been really nice to have some, uh,
01:03:26
Speaker
you know, history behind it all. And then also Vince dropping you every picture that he can. You're like, go here, go there. The psych level is so good from people you look up to. And I think that's the fun part of the planning of it all, right? And I do hope people go out there, but
01:03:48
Speaker
you know, talk to everybody and then you get to meet all these people and have conversations about the culture and the community and what else you could do out in these villages while being on your expedition.
01:04:04
Speaker
When Jeff and I climbed K-6 Central, we got in contact with the first and only team to climb K-6 Main. They climbed it in 1970, and one of the guys is still alive, Fred Prezel, and he sent us all these pictures of their expedition out there, and they had to inflate a bunch of sleeping pads and forward a river
01:04:28
Speaker
They have these black and white photos. It's pretty cool to picture what it would have been like back then to go on this crazy expedition. And they were all under 30. They were all pretty young to be going and making this first ascent of a 7,000-meter peak.
01:04:45
Speaker
It was cool to watch your YouTube videos, Steve and Vince and Mark are out there and y'all are just with your video recorder. It was just like awesome. I'm like, this is great footage. It just always put a smile on my face.
01:05:04
Speaker
We watched that video of K7 West. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, I'll have to find a link to that and put it in here. I don't know where it is anymore. But yeah, that was kind of a fun project because
01:05:24
Speaker
just in the sense of wanting to share. And I think one of the themes that I've just heard again and again and again is community. We've talked about the communities of the Balti people. We've talked about the communities of all these climbers across all these generations from people climbing in the 70s to people climbing now to me and my contemporaries climbing there 15, 20 years ago.
01:05:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's what it's really all about, right? And it is funny how I wouldn't be talking to you two or have gotten to know either of you as well as I do if it hadn't been for the climbing you've both done there. And we have a connection essentially because of this place that we weren't even there at the same time. We were there like 15 plus years apart, but it's still kind of
01:06:12
Speaker
Connects us and bonds us and we have something in common and we have like probably knows a lot of the same People just because of that connection and it's just like this this web the web of community So either of you have any sort of sort of final thoughts about the characousa like I'm curious to hear if you could like say just a few words like what it like
Encouraging Cultural Engagement and Emotional Connections
01:06:40
Speaker
I don't want to project too much of my own, you know, love for the place. I really want you to have, you know, feel full, you know, agency and, and communicating whatever it is you individually feel for the place. And I just want to know what that is. Like, how does that, what is it for you? Like in just like a nutshell? For me, it's like,
01:07:10
Speaker
I guess like if I can give any advice or keep giving my own self advice about the chair cases like don't stay in the tent the whole time. Walk around. Go meet the cook. Go
01:07:26
Speaker
listen to whatever birds out there. There's so many different birds and bring a little bird out. Like there's, you know, like I think the opportunity to not just, yeah, you want to sit in your tent and you want to talk to your friends and your partners, but also get out of the tent. Be an insider if you can within that area versus being a little bit of an outsider and get kind of out of your comfort zone when it means playing volleyball with a bunch of people you've never met.
01:07:56
Speaker
Go and visit the next tent over and get to know new people even if it's really scary but like even go venture off into the Cheracusa Glacier just to look at this glacier and the boulders that are out there or you know like Just have some meditation time within your own self, you know When do you get an opportunity now to be that off the grid? you know and
01:08:26
Speaker
enjoy that peaceful mind and be just be you in a foreign area and uh be a little feel a little out of control and feel get out of your comfort zone within the area you're already out there uncomfortable sometimes because it's raining and you know there's tensions of climbing and um but yeah like try to open your scope and your lens of it
01:08:55
Speaker
wanting more privacy try to like open up their whole world is kind of like not as private I mean it's like like they are so in each other's spaces like there's barely any doors you know everyone's in and out of each other's worlds and they share a lot within the Pakistani community like it's a lot of sharing and just go share stories and clothes and
01:09:21
Speaker
opportunities with people you don't know, aside from your group. And I think that was my favorite part of it all, and I'll continue to do that.
01:09:32
Speaker
you know, open my eyes to everyone around me and open my ears up and all the, all my heart for everybody. So it was, yeah, it was a, it was like my favorite place in the whole world. I'll like always tear up a little bit when I talk about the Cherocusa cause it's like my favorite place to be. And that's probably why I'm going again next year. So probably sell my van and go back to Pakistan. So yeah.
01:10:01
Speaker
I agree with Lindsay. It's like one of the most beautiful places on earth, but it's also so extreme. And of course, you're climbing mountains. It's very extreme. So you're putting yourself in these
01:10:13
Speaker
difficult environments and situations that brings the best out in people or the worst out in people. And luckily, we're with so many people, we get to learn a lot from each other and just try to put our best foot forward and continue to do that. And
01:10:33
Speaker
learn so many new things. I'm learning how to stay respectful and civil and polite in extreme difficult situations and I hope that I can impart to other people how to like clean up all the trash and keep it a nice beautiful place for people in the future because there's a little bit sometimes difficulty in cleaning up all the trash. We deal with it differently.
01:11:00
Speaker
So I don't know, there's so many things always to learn from everyone and continue to improve. Yeah. Yeah. That was good. Pretty. Thanks. Those are beautiful sediments to end on. And I think we should just let your words speak for themselves. Thank you for joining me. It's not just one, but a community together. We are uphill athlete. Thanks for listening.