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Voice of the Mountains: Our True Selves with guest Conrad Anker
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Voice of the Mountains host Steve House welcomes renowned climber Conrad Anker on to the podcast. They discuss Conrad's journey in mountaineering, his philosophy, and his leadership within the climbing community. They reflect on lessons learned in their own early climbing experiences, noting how climbing became a way to understand themselves and build resilience.
Conrad emphasizes the motivations behind mountaineering, contrasting reward-seeking with purpose-driven pursuits. He describes his path from climbing as a youth in the Sierra Nevada to his extensive expeditions across the world. They discuss the importance of trust and connection between climbing partners, as well as the responsibilities and ethical considerations in leadership, especially within the climbing community.
Conrad also shares insights into his work with the Khumbu Climbing Center (KCC) in Nepal, which provides education and training to Sherpa climbers. The conversation highlights Conrad's belief in silent leadership, leading by example, supporting others, and focusing on collective success rather than personal accolades.
The two legends of climbing reflect on legacy, risk, loss, and the impact of experiencing grief in the climbing world. Tune in for an episode full of wisdom and empathy we can all learn from.
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Transcript
K-7 Climb: A Journey of Self-Discovery
00:00:02
Speaker
I once spent two summers attempting to climb K-7, one of the most difficult summits in the world. I was seeking my true self. My reasoning was that if I isolated myself, I could know my true nature. I had only to observe my thoughts and my decisions as I confronted danger and difficulty moment after moment and day after day.
00:00:25
Speaker
I sought to be confronted and measured. A singular man, completely alone, seeking a new route deep among the highest, hardest, most impossible mountains on the planet.
Understanding Fear vs. Afraid
00:00:37
Speaker
The mountain was a tool to know my true self, and I learned many things, though not everything. For instance, I learned the difference between being afraid and fear. Being afraid is the sharp inhale when you jump into the mountain lake.
00:00:54
Speaker
Fear is the thick pressure of cold water on your skin as you swim towards your destination. Afraid is a shock. Fear is a weight ever present in the doing. What other feelings are ever present? Joy for one. Laughter is the sharp inhale and joy is what remains and puts the spring in a step and the beauty in a bee settling into the bloom of a flower.
00:01:22
Speaker
Knowing ever-present joy and ever-present fear, these things helped me to overcome my fear of failure, no matter how severe or how trivial that failure was. I came to make seven attempts to climb K-7 before standing on that fiercely guarded summit, on each attempt chipping away a little bit at the intricacies of finding a new way up a massive and steep mountain, alone.
00:01:47
Speaker
I was not there for the grade or the gram, and I was definitely not about the mountain which no one had heard of. It was about the lessons found only by doing hard things with no resources, save for the knowledge in my head and a few simple tools.
Motivation: Rewards vs. Purpose
00:02:04
Speaker
At the most fundamental level, there are only two motives that drive people to the limit of their potential.
00:02:09
Speaker
The first is that they want to be rewarded. They see reward as a prize and are drawn by its trappings. Attention, status, money, power. Most people understand intuitively that this is a terrible reason to seek growth. But it's important to identify reward-based motivation specifically and understand why they are a problem. There's an easy test.
00:02:36
Speaker
When people are motivated by reward, they will calculate the personal economics of uncomfortable and tedious tasks and responsibilities and often try to avoid them. If this person is in a leadership position, their charges will be without direction, guidance, or protection.
00:02:56
Speaker
The second motivation is purpose. And purposes shift over a lifetime as sands shift among the dunes. The exact purpose, I believe, is irrelevant.
00:03:08
Speaker
but the purpose-driven seek to be in the battle, in the struggle. Their reward is found in the heart of the toil. They have no time for recognition, and they may even resent it. They're not living to be seen. They are living to do, to seek, to be measured, to iterate, and to improve. Today you will listen to Conrad Anchor, who has been plenty recognized for his climbing.
00:03:37
Speaker
but his motives and his leadership have remained oddly invisible. Listen
Trust and Empowerment in Climbing Partnerships
00:03:43
Speaker
to him today. Listen when he says that we climb better when trust is present and the connection between partners is the very thing that elevates our climbing and ourselves. When he talks about sponsorship, he says it's not competition, but mutual betterment.
00:04:00
Speaker
how he's open about his own neurodivergent mind and calls it his superpower as it allows him to be hyper-situationally aware in the mountains. Or when he talks about his 20 years of running the Kumbu Climbing School, he says, it's about giving the Sherpa people the same educational approach to climbing that we had. That way climbing is not just work, but a passion, making it safer and more fulfilling.
00:04:27
Speaker
When true leaders step into leadership, it is because they need the help of other people whom they organize behind their vision and purpose as instinctively as a wolf pack rallies behind the alpha pair for the hunt. They do everything necessary to bring about something good for the people they serve and rather than avoid sacrifice and suffering, they seek it.
00:04:52
Speaker
They know that these experiences are often the hallmark of the work where the most is gained. Conrad Anchor is a great climber, no doubt, but in today's voice of the mountains, I want to bring you Conrad Anchor, the great leader. Let's listen.
00:05:13
Speaker
From uphill athlete, I am founder and CEO Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains, where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. This is where we will ask ourselves who we are, what we will learn, and who we want to become as a result of these adventures. This is Voice of the Mountains.
00:05:33
Speaker
It is an absolute honor for me today to have one of the absolute legends, if not one of the biggest and certainly one of the biggest, most defining characters of climbing of the last three or four decades. Conrad Anchor is a name that has been synonymous with high altitude Adventures of all kinds, groundbreaking mountaineering achievements, and it's really fun for me to watch him. Conrad is not just a climber. He's not just an icon of the world of exploration, but he has contributed a lot to the climbing community. And I'm going to argue and and ask Conrad if he his thoughts on on this, that a lot of this comes from his nature and his and his humility.
Conrad's Mountaineering Legacy
00:06:21
Speaker
Conrad was born in 1962 in California and his journey into the mountains began like so many peoples at a young age going in the mountains in Sierra Nevada with his family. His, I would say, resilience and expertise have been defined and refined through expeditions in Alaska, Patagonia, Himalaya, Karakoram, Antarctica. And his dedication to the mountain arts has extended well beyond his own climbs. He's climbed extensively with with younger climbers. He's spent years of his life
00:07:03
Speaker
teaching climbers and mountain guides in Nepal, the art of climbing. He's been ah just an inspirational mentor and leader within the climbing community. He served for many, many years as the captain of the North Face climbing team, or maybe athlete team actually, not just climbing team, and has been very actively involved in a lot of my interactions with Conrad over the years besides ice festivals and the like has been the American Alpine Club, the Alex Lo Charitable Foundation, and Access Fund, Protect Our Winners, other organizations like that where where our interests and and advocacy have overlapped. Conrad's life to me is a testament to the spirit of adventure perseverance and just being a lifer, just being a climber at the most basic truest sense of the word.
00:07:57
Speaker
I think that um you know Conrad is someone I've looked up to my whole career ah since before we
Inclusive Leadership in Climbing
00:08:05
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met. Very glad to have you here. I'm super grateful to you for joining us today. Well, thank you. And um I appreciate your introduction. And it means a lot because, yeah, I'm looking forward to exploring the um the underpinnings, the philosophical, the reason why we climb because we know how to climb. It's a very mechanical thing. We're good engineers this a as a species, but why do we climb? and that's um yeah Let's get into it. yeah
00:08:36
Speaker
Well, let's start when I want to ask you if you remember when we met. I think it was it was either 1992 or 1993 where I was climbing in Cody, Wyoming. And Alex was there. A few others were there. yeah And, you know, you were a god to me then, you know, that was like the the early days ah for me of of climbing. And, you know, those trips in Cody, watching you and and Alex and others climb,
00:09:03
Speaker
you know, watching you guys move and climb, you know, educated me. But what I most remember about that is the feeling of being uplifted and supported and emboldened and strengthened just by your encouragement, because it was it was just incredibly powerful for me as climber. I remember there was you got a second to send on one of Alex's roots and we're standing at the base and he's like, he got a or something like that. But it was good. It was definitely it's what we live for is our community of people that we do it with. And while it is climbing is very solitary sport that the I'm not a solo climber, um whether it's I mean, I do enjoy solo climbing, but the interaction I have with other people in the process of belaying and not like
00:09:55
Speaker
moment of like I'm gonna do something more difficult because I have your trust and you climb at a higher level when you when you have a lead belay and at least I do absolutely and that connection is really important and that's what we keep coming back to yeah and how How did you learn to access it? Because when I was, you know, you're not that much older than I am, to be honest. Like, you know, you were probably 30 at that time. You know, I think that that was one of my first inner experiences with partners who behaved and supported in that way.
00:10:29
Speaker
How did you come to that? How did that come to you? Well, part of it was from a young age, our family would get out in the Sierra backcountry. And that was always our um vacation. And in the middle of these journeys, there'd be like these moments where my dad's two buddies would they would be like, oh, yeah, we'll meet you on on July 13th at Maxwell Lake. And they would be there and we would go climbing. And so they were As a um as a thirteen fourteen fifteen year old and to go out with my dad's buddies but not my dad that was it was like no excuse station you gotta do it and so it was always good and so they
Early Influences and Sierra Adventures
00:11:08
Speaker
they they shared that with me and then i'm going on to living in salt lake in the eighties and you we had there the late ted wilson who went on to do a whole bunch of roots and then be a mayor of salt lake city was a great.
00:11:24
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person that that shared knowledge. There was a really, that the Salt Lake community in the 80s and 90s was definitely close knit and people supported each other. There wasn't rude jealousy or overt competition, but it was more like, let's all do well. In the mid 80s, around 85 or so, Salt Lake and American Fork came around to wrap bolting and we weathered that storm because we weren't Smith Rock and we weren't the gunks, so kind of at the two extremes. I want to go back to your father's friends and climbing with them as a, you know, teenager, young kid. And, you know, you mentioned how they were supportive. You know, can we talk about climbing then? What was that like? Give a little context, because one of the things that I think is so different now, we can both agree, like you and I both learned to climb outside because that's the only place you could learn to climb. Basically, everyone learns to climb these days indoors. I have a photograph of these I think it's Bob and Dan that they would meet and they would they were my dad's buddies and might we'd be there with the whole family so four kids and my you know the six of us just camping out with our wheels and then we'd meet and a couple years in a row um doing that and they but at that time it was we were peak scrambling so going up in the okay in the Sierras and the minarets and still exposed and everything but they had gold line and they would just like
00:12:48
Speaker
tied around my waist and protect an odd mover there to go scrambling and things like that. But it wasn't it wasn't until I was more on my own that I was like technical climbing and cairn mantle ropes and all that. But that introduction to it at that young age, that was always I mean, yeah, it was blue jeans and flannel shirts and waffle stompers and and camaraderie and laughter. It sounds like two in support. Yeah. Yeah. There were, it was always, and it was at that time at about age 14 that I realized.
00:13:23
Speaker
being in the mountains was my happiest place and where i was going to do was i would just maximize that time in there and it was. Add in one of those two week trips and my pack felt like nothing and i'd packed it up and was walking out and there was that like i'm gonna do this and at the time i thought well finish school because my parents and family was like this.
00:13:47
Speaker
go to university and then just started out working as a carpenter. yeah once Once you realize what your life's calling is and then if you can follow it, that's that's your gift. It doesn't necessarily need to be climbing or anything like that. It can be art, sciences, education, it can be spiritual. Yeah, absolutely. But being aware enough to when that that message comes to you to listen to it and act upon it. yeah And maybe it was just being outdoors. And you've talked and I've related to, you know, about being ADHD as a kid. And I'm certainly on that spectrum. And I think a lot of us who found climbing,
ADHD and Climbing Prowess
00:14:29
Speaker
do you feel like that affected or guided? I mean, not just your ability to realize that moment because you were so
00:14:38
Speaker
able to have like this intense focus that you could see and pick up those kinds of signals. yeah And is that also part of why the mountains quieted the inputs? Yeah, they're um I like to call it hyper situational awareness. ADHD at the end of it has a disorder. I'm not disordered. right I'm just operate. I'm a hyper situationally aware person and you want your Cleaning partners your bus drivers your pilots your financial advisors you want everyone to be situation aware and yes second grade for me was epic and but my parents is my mother was like no medication.
00:15:19
Speaker
No, none of that. She was just less sugar and more time outdoors. That was my prescription that point. in Yeah. And then I was either 14 or 15. And the first rope climb I did was Wind Ridge in El Dorado Canyon. And yeah, you've done that. It's five, six. And I was like,
00:15:37
Speaker
wow this is like this is it and what that is for someone that's hyper situation aware once you get three body lengths above the ground. The risk of death is there so we're the most ancient part of our brain this time out alpine climbing and then everything is all those signals whether it's the sound of the snow.
00:16:00
Speaker
telling you how cold it is or um just the wind. I mean, all those saddles and they're all tuning into you. Yeah, it's our secret weapon up there. I mean, if you have that situational awareness and you get into the big mountains, that's what keeps you alive. I couldn't agree more. There are important places for people with that skill set and with that aptitude to express themselves. Yeah, just don't turn us into accountants. Do not do that.
00:16:27
Speaker
You got to find them. It's like those little aptitude tests where you put the the triangle peg in the triangle space and whatnot. Yeah. And funnily enough, my dad was an accountant. He was a CPA for his entire career. And that is literally my worst nightmare. like That was like the one thing I wanted to avoid. Above all, I was becoming a CPA. Yeah. And my dad was dad, too. My dad worked. you know He started out in and know as ah as a finance guy and and working for the federal government out of San Francisco, and he was yeah shuffled papers. We love being outdoors, and I think that for both our parents, um it might be for our fathers, what we ended up becoming made them super, your dad's name is Don. That's right, you remember, yeah. Oh yeah, and and so yeah, he's so proud of you. My dad was proud of me because it was like, this is what he wanted to do, and and we had the,
00:17:25
Speaker
the permission and the support from our parents to go to it, which is um which is different because there's a lot of clamors that find climbing and their parents are like, My gosh, this is the worst thing in the world. And I think with the majority of parents in our generation of climbers, like I was rare in my circle of climbing friends whose parents actually knew what I was doing and supported it. Yeah. I think that's maybe more common now. I don't know. With climbing gyms, is it normalized? And there's more climbers that are just parents like us. Now we have um these second generation climbers. So my start to the mountains was in that
00:18:00
Speaker
from a generational so ah type of place. In that vein, yeah. Another thing that i you you don't you may not remember is that you shipped to me my first three clothing that I ever received that was a full I don't remember what it was called, the the red and black full go three layer Gore-Tex suit, the red and black Denali fleece jacket and some wind stopper gloves. All of those things died of a death of being worn into shreds. So thank you for that. I don't know if you knew how much that oh yeah that meant to me as a young climber. It was just sort of like fuel yeah for the fire. I want to people to understand that
00:18:45
Speaker
That would have been probably, I don't know, let's just call it the mid-nineties. And nobody in North America would could or would call themselves a professional climber or a sponsored climber even, or and certainly no one was making a living.
00:19:00
Speaker
in North America from the sport. Maybe a few individuals in Europe like Reinhold Mesner and maybe a handful of others could could do that. But arguably they worked because Reinhold would go on tour and do like 60 lectures across you know Europe and led charge at the door and get some of the profits. So it's hard to argue that he was even really a sponsor climber at that period.
Pioneering Professional Climbing
00:19:22
Speaker
And you were part of that first wave and you kind of broke the ground on that for at least us in in North America with in partnership with the North Face and you know the original dream team. You and Alex and Lynn Hill and Grey Child and you know you guys all of a sudden this sort of appeared. like the the The industry reached this critical mass in terms of revenue and popularity. And I saw you kind of tiptoeing between those two worlds for a while. Can you tell me about that period?
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, so 95 to 98. So um yeah, I'd been associated with North Face. I started at the in 1981. It was a Hallie bar store, Salt Lake City. And then North Face acquired Hallie bar and then I was like, oh, this is great. And so did some expeditions. Ninety five. Bill Simon, who was the CEO at the time, offered me work in at the offices and in the Bay Area and um Yeah, I was I'd been living in Salt Lake and I said, yeah, I'm gonna go give this a go. And you know he was like, you get you work four days a week, you get three days off and you still get your hours in. And for me, it was good because my family's it was two hours of away in the family, three hours Yosemite Valley. um So I got lots of climbing in and still um there's also
00:20:45
Speaker
really need to be in working in ah in a corporate setting. And that experience I've had is really helpful because how you work with a business, how you come up with ideas, our marketing team was six people at the time. And working with Jack boys, we had the um came out with a never stop exploring um one of the the ah things that was going on there, but also codifying the athlete team and and being able to help that out. and Before I'm any one brand, I'm always for each individual athlete in that we together, we're all in the same cloth and well'll we benefit each other. and so
00:21:26
Speaker
The rising tide lifts all boats, so to say, and it's, yeah, now to see where it is that um a lot of times an affirmation like that really can, that you're on the right path of what you want to do. And so I guess now it's more teaching people climbing and being there with them in the present. When I wake up in the morning, like, yeah, sure, I'm out, I'm selling raincoats and water bottles. And I mean, that's my day job, but Those what they stand for is that participatory. Outdoor experiential activities that we need to have activities in life and that when you do that with someone you come away as a a happy person. It's a good way to.
00:22:09
Speaker
to an antidote to our oversubscribed society that we live in. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many things that you've said just now that I want to, to dig into, but one of them particularly of interest is, you know, this whole idea of growing participation in outdoor sports and what that takes and what, you know, your individual role in it, what the larger corporate, various corporations and companies that, that,
00:22:39
Speaker
manufacturer equipment for what their role is in that You know and and you kind of tie it back to something very human You just like tie it back to kind of quality of life or happiness or whatever you want to call that um Is that always how you thought about
Expanding Outdoor Sports Participation
00:22:56
Speaker
it? Like when you were a young kid walking out from the Sierras? Is that how you thought about it? He's you're just like this makes me happy. Yeah, and that was like the identifying anchor and Yeah, that that connection was definitely. And for my dad, he was an office guy and like your father, you know, i had to show up and then vacation was special. So he really loved it. When we encourage more people to be outdoors, I'm happy for it. But if you're like, you and I and many of the listeners here, you know, your local place where you go to get your rejuvenation, your outdoor
00:23:30
Speaker
and the beauty of trees and the sound of the wind and the soil. And if you climb, it's all that. And you can find places where you can still get that sense of solitude. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think that you are, I don't know if I'd say a rarity, but you are certainly a voice. And I i absolutely share your perspective. Like the more people we get outside, the better. But there are a lot of people of our generation and I would say older,
00:23:57
Speaker
where they feel like, oh, you know, it's too crowded now. You know, I wish there weren't so many people at the crag, these kinds of things. Like, how do you what do you have to say to that approach or that attitude? What what is your reflection to them? Well, ah one, I'm not hanging out with them.
00:24:14
Speaker
People that are not optimists and they just grouse about everything. I'm like, okay, check. Yeah, I'll find someone that's Excited about life and wants to go do things. So but there's some yeah, I mean there would be reminiscing about the good old days um There's a little bit of gatekeeping that goes on with it um but it's still given the Given everything that's going on in society and in the world at large that you know having to wait for for your turn on a top rope ice climb is not a big deal. You're going to socialize with the person. and I think that the more that we can share that, the better off we'll be. Yeah, totally agree. ah Well, let me just say this. I myself have struggled with this idea of how am I contributing to the problem and like contributing to the solution more than I'm contributing to the problem when it comes to, you know, overuse and, you know, introducing new people in the sport, getting people excited about getting in the mountains.
00:25:09
Speaker
helping people you know become physically fitter so they can enjoy the mountains better, helping people become mentally fitter so they can enjoy enjoy the mountains and get out in the mountains but more easily. As a young climber, I was very much kind of a black or white, my way or the highway.
00:25:26
Speaker
sort of punk attitude climber like you i want I was sort of on the quote unquote purest spectrum and you had to do things everything in this super light and fast style or otherwise it was bullshit and this kind of thing and you know as I've gotten older I see all of that completely differently and I have At this point, zero judgment for however people want to go up there. And honestly, zero judgment about what their reasons are for going up there, whether it's climbing Everest with a Sherpa guide or going top roping G1, which for those that don't know is ah is a classic ice climb near the parking lot in Highlight Canyon. and
00:26:08
Speaker
whatever their reason is is is, is good enough. Like, and they don't owe me an explanation and they don't owe me a justification. And I'm just happy that they're happy and out there ah doing that and doing something for themselves that they enjoy, presumably enjoy. I mean, maybe it's type two fun a lot, but yeah. yeah How has that evolved for you? Were you always so ah zen with this or were you also, did that changes you aged as well?
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah, there was I was always pretty pretty like low key about it. Rule number one, you don't harm other people. um And that's the the beauty of climbing in that it's this big massive tree. And the root of it is gravity. And that's the foundation. And then we have all these different ways of interpreting it, whether it's from deep water soloing to high altitude climbing. you know They're both on snow and ice, but they're both playing with gravity um from parkour to and Sort of on-site soloing something i mean there's just so many different ways that and they're all good and they're all healthy and. I think for you and i being general practitioners alpinists and rock climbers ice climbers indoor climbers that that we appreciate all the different ways and that i'm happy to. like I walk into the climbing gym and it's my happy place i got my locker.
00:27:30
Speaker
Six thirty Wednesday morning, the old guys, it's our social hour. It's like going to the bar. But then you go in there at three thirty in the afternoon and the school kids come out and it sounds like the inside of a the swim center just peals of laughter and they're just there there and you know you're in between your climbs and you There's always, every now and then, you'll see someone walk in and see a climbing gym for the first time. And it's just, those moments are priceless. Wow, this is... I just love it, yeah. Yeah. And then, um and seeing how how good climbing is here in in Bozeman now. um
00:28:09
Speaker
having lived here for 23 years. And when the when our sons, Max, Sam, and Isaac were young, we were building climbing walls in the climbing gyms and supporting the climbing team. And you know they're they were all part of that. When children are introduced to it at a young age,
00:28:24
Speaker
It helps build solid neural pathways that lead to good decision making and being able to adapt well enough in and the real world. Caveat has always exceptions to that, but but yeah climbing does because we We have the the ancient brainstem in the modern, and that we're interacting with both of those. And a game of chess is 100% prefrontal cortex. right And the more you play chess, the stronger you you become as a chess player, and the more you you can see 15, 20 moves out. And it's just a fascinating game, but it's all prefrontal cortex.
00:29:02
Speaker
getting chased by a bear or a mountain lion is this ancient brainstem. It's all, I'm just surviving. And when we put both of those together.
Conrad's Selfless Leadership
00:29:13
Speaker
What I see you and when I listen to you today, you know, I i hear and see and have have always for decades felt this with you is that you're actually, europe're but you're a real leader and you have been a real leader in our community.
00:29:32
Speaker
And you're the kind of leader that I think is honestly the best kind and also the rarest kind because you're not a leader because you want um status or or money or or fame. ah You know, you're the leader that if I needed help, you would just put your hand down and help me out.
00:29:54
Speaker
If I needed encouragement, you would shout up encouragement. If I needed a belay, you would give me a belay. And you're always there for other people and you never ask for anything in return. And even in the way you've spoken in the last half an hour or so, I don't know how many times I've seen you teach someone how to file a pic properly, but it it's in the dozens. Right? like I mean, you laugh because, you know, you you do that all the time. i've Every ice festival I've ever been to, like, you're over there, like, oh, there's Conrad showing somebody how to file a pic again, ah which I love. Right? Like, I absolutely love that about you. And, you know, you've just done that as far back as I can remember. And this, for me, is one of the stories that I think I want to both acknowledge and think and talk about with you, because I don't think, honestly, you get credit for that.
00:30:42
Speaker
do you you Would you even use the word leader for yourself? Oh, maybe. an accidental leader or more than, I don't, yeah, it's hard to say. um It's mostly by just getting in there and helping out and and like doing what you want people to do and then um coming at it through the prism of optimism. So some leaders are, okay, you're gonna berate the employee or the people that are working with them and to get them to motivate along those lines. And so, um but yeah,
00:31:18
Speaker
You can ask someone to scrub the deck, then you'll want to scrub the deck with them. And but look at Shackleton as an example of a leadership. And maybe 20 years ago, there was a whole boom and get a grip business books for Shackleton. Like, oh, he's this wonderful leader. But in his day-to-day life, he wasn't an exceptional leader per his biographer Roland Hunford. And in the UK, he just wasn't He was at loose ends and promising different things to different people, and there's complexities to that. Yet, when out in the field, he was an exceptional leader because he was there. He wasn't um he was a merchant marine, so not a royal marine, so with the Navy, so whereas Scott was more hierarchical and more of a... I was born into leadership.
00:32:06
Speaker
Shackleton at the time was just get in there and feed the dog scrub the decks with the men at the same time and it's always Resonated with me. So the Yeah, the insane for instance working on on Everest with the Nepali climbers there and to be like, okay i'll I'll carry my own weight through the ah dangerous sections up there and not and put that put the work out there on on you and they respect that. But there's also like, do wolves, do they have like primaries and elections? Hell no, they're wolves. the wolf with the wolf
00:32:50
Speaker
the wolf charisma, the wolf energy is going to be the wolf leader. And so that's always evident. um on Or the wolf that knows how to provide for the pack.
00:33:03
Speaker
I'm the guy on my knees lashing down the sleds where you know where you're like, we'll learn how to tie your sled, but you't need either there's a trade off there back and forth on this. I think with Shackleton you hit on ah on a great point that there are no perfect leaders and there there are different circumstances for different people to show their strengths, but one of the things that I think is a real strength of the leadership that I've seen coming out of the outdoor community, the mountain community, is there's no aversion to getting in there and doing the hard work, to, as you put it, scrubbing the decks and swabbing the decks and feeding the dogs with everyone else. I mean, I think that's why it was so impactful for me to get even a half, I get even a semi-kind word from from you and Alex in the early 90s. It was just like,
00:33:53
Speaker
I'm not, I had this feeling like I wasn't worthy. Like I just wanted to be invisible at that moment, but you're like, Hey, Steve, what are you going to do? You're going to climb that page? Oh, cool. Yeah. Where are you going to get your first? I don't remember what, you know, I don't remember our conversation. Like I said, I just remember that I felt supported and encouraged and uplifted and all those good things. Right. And that's literally like what you've been doing for, you know, 30 plus years. So I hope you, I hope you can feel that.
00:34:23
Speaker
Kindness is it's universal and it's it's good to be and there but also in coming circling back to parenting and it's a lot like um Leadership and if you have guidelines and expectations and you know what they are going into it And so we have guidelines and expectations climbing it's hard work that's why I mean you have to go uphill every step of the way and you're not It's not you're not taking a chair left to the top. you You're earning. It's hard work. So that and makes it tough with that. But um in climbing, we have our guidelines and our expectations. Our guidelines are you don't mess with gravity, and so you're going to which means don't go under the Hengster rack.
00:35:05
Speaker
We know what the rules ah of that are and the expectations are is that you make the summit or you come back good friends or a lot of those so it's sort of very clear and simple but with children that they. they As long as the expectations are talked about in advance and with people, then it makes it so much easier. And so the, um like on managing a big expedition, there's always these rules. i'm like So these are two figures of speech. One's a yellow card. So if you're 15 minutes, half hour late from our set time to depart, and then you get a yellow card. and The other one is a pacifier. And so that's for,
00:35:49
Speaker
if you're just complaining too much or you know there but we we talk about the beginning of the trip and then we never use and everyone thinks it's like a source of humor but there are no one's like oh yeah you're being too that's like too much tough love or anything like this I'm like hey these are the guidelines and then everyone's like yeah I don't I don't want to be the one get the yellow card and you know where you need to leave camp at leave 14 camp at you know After the sun, 15 minutes after the sun hits us, we're going to leave 15 minutes after the sun hits us. and that um That's part of of good leadership. and then The other part of it is is encouraging people to go help them realize what their potential is. and so I had that with my mentor, Muggs, who would be like, hey
00:36:36
Speaker
you lead this and it it i I know you have it, I'm not gonna be the rope gun all the time, you go lead it. So that was um those that encouragement. to um And that that was what I experienced with my dad's buddies. And because with your parents, you're, oh, I'm tired or what's for dinner. When when when Bob and Dan rolled in there, I was like, okay, I gotta,
00:37:02
Speaker
want to be like them i'm not going to complain Yeah, that's that's great. The story of Muggs kind of, you know, he could have led that pitch, but he knew that you could too, and and somehow he realized that that was important. Yeah, but then they had to pass that on to the, um but the other, you were talking about Joseph Campbell and the in the mentorship leadership, and I see life as a linear experience. And so,
00:37:28
Speaker
and And within it there's these four stages and they can be defined by two decades if you want it or mean but the time isn't as much but the first one is you sort of you're under your appearance weighing and you discover who you are and and you learn about life and. kind of figure out what you want to do and then that next 20 years you refine what you're doing you become really good at that and then that third window you you excel at it you become the very best and you're the top of what you can do by your own standards and by your community standards and in in that fourth
00:38:04
Speaker
Window it all comes back to where you're supporting those people in that in those earlier stages and we have this virtuous cycle not that I mean it does actually sound virtuous but it is a good cycle that where people that had taught us are going to teach us is at the end of the day climbing is very complex and you can't learn it. um You have someone has to literally show you the ropes so that since we.
00:38:33
Speaker
We create our own leaders. It's interesting how we carry those micro-experiences through with us for our lives. I remember being on an expedition to Gazhahrom IV with our good mutual friend, Steve Swenson. And the I can't remember exactly what happened, but I think some kerosene leaked and contaminated a load of flour or something like that, right? And I think that there is so much latent, untapped,
00:38:58
Speaker
leadership potential within our our community because we've had to learn through doing really hard things.
Legacy and Positive Contributions
00:39:06
Speaker
It just takes a lot of of grit and, you know, I mean, I know that that's been communicated, your accomplishments have been communicated well, like particularly things like Meru where there was, you know, your film with Jimmy and where it's it's obvious to people like what that's like. That's so great because like people They get it then, like, right? I can show them a couple of slides, but it doesn't communicate the way film does, right? So, you know, people can appreciate that. And I wish that that was something that we could we could lean into more as a community because we've got a lot of good stuff to to give out there.
00:39:39
Speaker
You know, one question that I wanted to ask you, Conrad, and that is how would you like to be remembered? What what legacy do you want to have? I mean, we're all going to end this cycle or this linear journey, as you as you said, and what's what's the most important thing for you?
00:39:59
Speaker
Well, the legacy, i don't I'm not like motivated to think about what people will think about me once I'm dead. So I mean, that's like, that's a lot. That's what I mean. cpu behind rot i'm like okay um So the legacy thing is more of like doing the right thing. And so yeah, we're, there's injustice, there's suffering in this planet. What can we do to to eliminate that? And that,
00:40:23
Speaker
We found climbing and being outdoors, that's the prism that we're moving to a more just and equitable and happy society and that we get to use this medium of of participatory, outdoor, experiential community building. I mean, it's just such a great way to to do that. So, um but yeah.
00:40:47
Speaker
to be remembered for sharing that good message. Not so much for like, oh, he did this climb or that climb, but like there were some. And it's interesting that because we've been talking about this the wild engagement of how the mind works in a climbing situation and that it's hard work and everything like that, that many of the thought leaders that that have come to the environmental outdoor space have been climbers. and Going back to Thoreau and Walden and Muir and mirror and i mean everyone now revisiting them through a different lens of the 21st century, but even then going on to
00:41:32
Speaker
Teddy Roosevelt in and John Muir, coming up with that idea of the National Parks and John Muir climbing Cathedral Peak, which is, yeah you know, 75-6. I mean, it's for real. And then David Brower with the Sierra Club, first ascent of Shiprock, first placing bolts went on to start Earthjustice. And then Yvon Chouinard is the climber using and Doug Tompkins that um the ethos of climbing and then from a business commercial Christine thomkins as well and Exactly. Yes, everyone they're all of our community in there. They're there's a lot of thought leaders that are within climbing and that it's Because of that it's appealing to society as as a whole people like to understand I want to go back to the question really quick you uh, just to I think I I
00:42:27
Speaker
ask the question poorly because I use this loaded term legacy. But um I think the better way to ask it is how do you want to be remembered? the guy that got the KCC going. That's like one thing. The Kumboo Climbing Center is a vocational training program based in Nepal, now 20 years in the running. And it's some educated climbing and climbing ethos to many of the people in Nepal. um More than, say, a guide school where a Nepali would become a better load carrier, rope fixer,
00:43:03
Speaker
No camp to cook or something like that but rather that they explore climbing the same thing way that we do which is we see it as an avocational pursuit and then with the kumbbu climbing center more over than the the aptitude of being safe in the mountains it's also like a innovation and education hub and so taking what.
00:43:26
Speaker
what I've brought to climbing it from a professional climber's sense that that's like a cool thing to do in Nepal. And so there's Dawe Youngsom, who's a North Face athlete and Rolex athlete and first IFMGA guide from Nepal and Southeast Asia. And it's a great success story. It came from the Rualing Valley and then yeah the and The Everest outfit as a clothing company and Katmandu did a great job. And both their founders were students with Renan and I in a class in 2007. So they went on Rajulama, who's a world famous Nepali musician, um went to the class and then summited two years ago. And it was so it's been really it's been neat to see that. And then spending time immersing in the culture that
00:44:18
Speaker
What they take away from it is the interaction with other people and what climbing is and that we're presenting climbing as fun, not just like, oh, it's a paycheck. I also want to ask you, you know, because this touches on leadership and how we pass through this these stages, as as you put it, that how you pass the mantle of team captain, athlete team captain, I'm not sure exactly the official role, so forgive my ignorance of that, the official title. When you pass that on to our dear and unfortunately no longer with us friend, Hilary O'Neill,
00:44:57
Speaker
You know, I imagine that was a big right for you as well, having been leading that team for such a long time. What did you tell her? It was spontaneous. In 2016, I had a heart attack on Lou Nugry with David Lamont. And i just I've had two near death experiences that were avalanches and that you run away, just chemically changed. And like, ah, it's like on a movie type thing. But this time it was slow motion that the recycler was going slow motion on that. So, um but um bring me back around to where we were. um Yeah. What you said to Hillary and you said it was spontaneous. Yes. um So I had the heart attack and it was 2016 and plan your transitions or they will be planned for you. So whether you're skiing powder or from powder to icy crust or you're climbing from
00:45:54
Speaker
bad rock to good rock and mean know your transitions and also in a business. like i was okay My time was good and so we just were there and Hillary you're the next team captain and the um it was good because i was I was in a room full of women with Hillary and we were looking at like how are we going to how do we speak to women and how do we do this and I was like oh Hillary you should be the next team captain and there was like oh
00:46:24
Speaker
And this was right after your heart attack or right before? I didn't connect the heart attack. It was after the heart attack. So I had the heart attack and then we... And then that made you realize that you needed to plan a transition? Yeah. Was that a connection? But also I was... And it was good in the process of transitioning because it just wasn't really a created position and then it went to that. And Hilary, you know, miss her dearly and the consequences of the games that we play, especially the Himalayan ski game is definitely
00:47:01
Speaker
a challenge unto itself. Did you give her any advice or did she ask you for anything over those coming weeks or months that are years that between? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we work together well and really well. So we' we're a brother sister and so that kind of, um but she's 10 years younger than I am. For her, I was always like, okay, participate, be part of it.
00:47:27
Speaker
um and sign up for a nonprofit board. And so she was in the American Alpine Club and then was the the president. And, you know, when, when she perished, she was still, so it was a tough blow for the Alpine Club. But it was, but she had it and Hillary was, was a natural leader and really was good in uplifting the female athletes and part of the team and and women around the world. Yeah.
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah, she is dearly missed. This is another reason behind wanting to have these conversations with you and try to go deeper than i you know the what I would say the the mainstream media would would do when they talk to you, Conrad.
Mentorship and Leadership Transition
00:48:15
Speaker
because I want the young Hillarys and the young Conrad's to see that there's a path to, you know, to ah to a ripe old age and to a meaningful old age and to and that that the hat that what they're learning out there has value and is is cared about and has can make a positive difference in the world. I think there's so much nihilism and you know, just hopelessness out there that particularly in the youth and when they see that, you know, someone like you or they can hear some of the things that you've learned and some of the things you've done and how you've done them.
00:48:59
Speaker
I think that they can be inspired and I want them to stay alive. right like i mean that For me, that's a ah big thing. like I know that you've probably thought about this more than I have, but you know we've both felt so greatly the loss of people, whether it's Alex or Hillary or Muggs or Seth. or i mean like The list could go on. but I just wish they were all here because they would have so much to teach us and so much to tell us and so much to share and they'd all be such powerful, amazing humans full of agency and positivity and you know forces for for good and change in the world, which we always need more of. so i want it for those If there's any young Conrad's or Hilary O'Neill's out there listening, I just want them to know that
00:49:53
Speaker
you know, there's there's a bright future. And aging as ah as a mountaineer, as a mountain person, is one that's full of riches and and and bliss and not not and absolutely worth striving for. And a lot of this, um you're mentioning the the youth of today and just not really being motivated. But if you go out and do what we do, you suffer by your own volition. You're choosing to put yourself in a hard place cold hands, lack of altitude, and lack of oxygen. and I mean all these, you're suffering. It's not, you're not pampered underneath a parasol at the beach with a
00:50:34
Speaker
the pinacalata, you're suffering out there. And so when you go out and do that, you have empathy for other people whose situation might not be as good as you. And so that that perspective change is really like, when people are like, oh, I have nothing to get up for. And then there's some like, you have everything in the world to get up for in the morning. This existence is phenomenal. Think about all the opportunity that you have there and ah that within that. and it Again it comes down to if people find what they're calling in life is that they have purpose and yeah it's not climbing isn't for everyone just as licorice isn't for everyone or and the different you know we're all unique but the finding that yeah it's definitely a challenge to.
00:51:21
Speaker
To encourage people to find their calling but then knowing it comes at great cost and that was your touching on the non sequential death is really ah difficult one and what i experienced it at age twenty eight twenty nine for the first time i know that. The floor fell out of the room and i was just in this it was really difficult and now at age sixty one that.
00:51:45
Speaker
One, it's going to be around the corner. It's inevitable. um But it's also being there for the younger generation. So um Kyle Rott, who was a one of those silent crushers, fell off a rappel station. And his buddy Ned, who is 31, 32, it's a real tough go of it. So we reach out and we connect and and doing what I can having been in that place in my 30s to say how tough it was and then when I was at that age at 36 it was Gil Roberts from the Everest expedition who was with Jake Breitenbach and that came and talked to me and sought me out um and we spent three or four days and he was um and
00:52:31
Speaker
stage four cancer eventually passed away, but it was he openly talked to me about survivor skill and ah you know how random the mountains can be and and yet we still have to go there and and why is it real to us? so it was a really um and i still those those those Those afternoons that we spent in 99 after Alex's death and I remember driving up to his house in the Berkeley Hills there and had his koi pond out with a koi and we just sat around and talked about life and
00:53:08
Speaker
Then he was like, let's go out and have a french fries and milkshakes and heck with the doctor. He was kind of, but the symbolism of that wasn't lost on me. And so moments like that that instruct us how to be when we're at that age are really priceless and that the more of those that I can share with the younger generation, um the the more I fulfill my life's calling. Well, I think that that is a, yeah, I mean, it's profound Conrad. I don't,
00:53:39
Speaker
You know, there was a moment and we may or may not remember at an one of the outdoor retailers in Salt Lake and we it was a really crowded, I think, restaurant. I can't remember exactly, but it was somewhere at the event and we were sitting across the table from one another after gu getting food and you brought up survivor's guilt and asked me about point blank if I experienced that. And it made me so uncomfortable and I was emotionally so unready for for that. I think I just, I probably, i I feel like I probably just like threw up my french fries and ran out the room like in a cartoon or something. Maybe I didn't, but that's that's kind of how my my feeling was. And yet that stuck with me. Like I remember it to this day. I don't remember anything else about that week, but I remember that interaction and
00:54:32
Speaker
you know, it stuck with me because you were being vulnerable with me, you know, and I think that that's another piece of leadership that is so pervasive within the outdoor community. We we do learn how to be vulnerable with each other. I mean, even like just going on your first big wall with a partner and like you have to be pretty vulnerable up there. you know like there's ah there's a and know It starts to starts there, starts with just biological functions and then it you know just progresses and gets deeper and then you know you had these experiences with Gil and you know we've both experienced tremendous loss in our lives. and There was a period of for me where I resented it. I resented the having to be pulled into that
00:55:23
Speaker
space of vulnerability because I felt scared there. And then I got to a point from, I don't know what, maybe I just grew up where I accepted it and started to see it the way you you see it as an opportunity to learn and to to help others that were maybe a little less far along the path that I was. And I could see them going through. And as you said, like it's always right around the corner. I mean, in my life, there's been a couple just recently as well.
00:55:53
Speaker
And it's just in some ways, it never gets easier. And in some ways, it's great to know that somehow these dark halls of grief and everything that you and certainly I have been through have some some positivity to them, that we can we could use that journey to help other people who are in that hall, in that valley.
Lessons from Climbing: Vulnerability and Leadership
00:56:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's a different, I mean, yeah, we don't, we don't want to lose life because it's so precious. And, you know, we don't want to, you know, as people have said, Oh, I don't want to know he died doing what he or she loved, but you know you want to live for more of those moments on there and really um to be there with their the people that are closest to you. so it's um yeah there're mean That's what makes climbing special is because of that risk, and we know that going into it. and The ah greater the risk, the greater that intrinsic reward can be. And for those of us that are wired along those lines, ah people that are risk averse, than yeah they're yeah their whatever their passion is, is they they excel at it. but yeah Could it be that the risk and the consequences of the risk are what teaches us the vulnerability that is required to actually come around to helping doing the real work of leadership, which is
00:57:23
Speaker
ah Tying down loads on a sled and helping scrub the decks and stuff because you know you've already been through hell and back with people, right? Like in these, in these grief journeys and it's like, Oh, well like scrubbing the deck, man, that's easy. Let's yeah do this all day compared to some of this other stuff we've had, had to go through. So I wonder if that's part of the equation. Any, that ring true or false? But we stay busy yeah then. Yeah. If I'm doing something, then, then I'm like,
00:58:01
Speaker
those voices that are like ah the self doubt and the things that we'd explored earlier in the podcast there. They're kept at bay because you're, and for me, that's helping out other people that that is like, I feel going to bed at night. I'm like, Oh yeah, this was good.
00:58:17
Speaker
My connection now to Nepal over 35 years and well knowing the community there and and climbing in there and just loving the place and the people that are there. But then also working with Chubhavan University and the US Embassy, um and the Nepal Mountain Association, a lot of contacts that I've built up over the years. and are one of the goals is to do a carrying capacity study for Mount Everest. And i think that um yeah, in conjunction with Tourmoulin University, we have the the head of the meteorology department is going to be working with us and finding partner universities in the United States, perhaps, but to model it after how the management plan for Denali, for Mont Blanc, for Aconcagua,
00:59:06
Speaker
um vincent's management plan is called pricing but you know and how many people can get on half dome and so there needs to be there hasn't been as many permits issued this year as there was last year and the price is going up so it's it's um in helping manage that uh you know helping there to give insight into it and not to be overbearing and the white savior colonialist type thing like yeah this this growth is happening what can we do to um and much of it comes down to education and awareness and and that if people know again like with kids if you have guidelines and expectations you'll you'll do well and so when people now come into the park they're like okay this is a nature reserve you can't take anything out your letter needs to be accounted for um
00:59:58
Speaker
along those lines, so education goes a long ways on that. That sounds a little bit like this silent leadership theme that we've been talking about, just digging in and doing the work that needs to be done rather than sitting on the sidelines and criticizing people, or just or maybe not even criticizing people, not doing anything. um That's almost as bad. So so that's that's amazing. Thank you for doing that work. That's incredible.
01:00:25
Speaker
So that's what you've got ahead of you. i'm so um you know and I'm sure the uphill athlete community would love to know is how to support that. Is there any any way that they could support KCC or any of the other work that you do with your number with the different nonprofits? Yeah, the KCC is Nepali-focused for Nepali climbers and primarily Sherpa, which is one of
01:00:52
Speaker
Many ethnic groups within Nepal so this that that runs on its own but um Locally if you're here in the United States Listening in the Memphis rocks um on the board of directors there and that's a talk about taking the good the good word of climbing and sharing it in a place that is it's it's magical going there and on the children that come from the elementary school and that um that is a way that the trust and communication that people build with each other that is elemental to climbing in that, in in an underserved population, such as South Memphis, it's pretty eye-opening. And it's it's a neat project. It's a community center. There's a kitchen ah there that offers good food. um There's a wellness center that offers um
01:01:46
Speaker
ah care for expectant mothers. It's a voting polling station. and so it's so yeah If you have a chance to visit Memphis, spend a few days at the climbing gym, go listen to some blues and whatnot. The next Conrad Anchor is going to start climbing at age seven and at Memphis Rocks. you know I mean, why not? like that's That's how it happens. that you know I've said this before, but there's the that there i have the the you've alluded to it.
01:02:15
Speaker
about if you have the kind of my version of this is if you have the climbing gene and you get introduced to climbing, your life has changed. And if you don't have the climbing gene and you're introduced to climbing, nothing really changes for you. And that's that's also fine. I just want to say again, Conrad, I just I'm so grateful to know you, grateful to call you a friend. i'm humbled to just have watched you for literally three deck three and a half decades and just seen all the good work you've done. You've always been such an inspiration to me and in so many ways and you continue to be. And it's this silent leadership and here you are doing it in all these ways that we're just finding out about at the end of our time today. but
01:03:02
Speaker
It's it's incredible. And so thank you for all that work and just just being authentic and being you and doing what you do. It's incredible. Thank you. Thank you, Steve, with deep gratitude. And thank you for inviting me to the podcast and to the listeners for taking time out of your day to to listen in. And um yeah, we're we're here and it's um we're the choir and the choir is They're the ones that show up early, sweep the pews, make sure that I'm not a religious dis person, but make sure everything's tidy and they take the message of the of the out there. And so when we're here, when you're listening to this, you you share this message with 10 people and they're going to come back and they're going to be like, yeah, this, there's meaning to being outdoors and it, it, it has a real place in society. It's not some frivolous pursuit and do the right thing. Spend time outdoors. Absolutely. Well said.
01:04:00
Speaker
Voice of the Mountains is a production of Uphill Athlete Incorporated. Our producer is Alyssa Clark. Sound engineering and editing is done by Christoph Lucaser. Voice of the Mountains is scripted and hosted by me, Steve House, with research and writing help from Jamie Lyko. Thank you for listening to Voice of the Mountains.