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Tanner Wanish on Positive Suffering, Sponsorships and Climbing Hard
5.9k Plays12 days ago
In the latest Uphill Athlete podcast episode, Alyssa interviews Tanner Wanish, a former Navy SEAL turned elite climber known for his record-breaking Yosemite Triple Crown ascent. Tanner shares his unconventional entry into climbing, his disciplined training regimen, and his perspective on balancing risk and endurance in high-altitude technical climbing. They discuss the mental and physical challenges of pushing limits while maintaining safety, particularly in extreme endurance events like the Yosemite Quad. The conversation also touches on his experience with sponsorships, overtraining, injury management, and the importance of listening to one's instincts in dangerous situations. Tune in for a fantastic episode with one of the rising voices in climbing.
If you'd like to follow Tanner's adventures, you can check him out on instagram at @ilikebigbutress
If you'd like to learn more about our offerings, please visit uphillathlete.com or write to us at coach@uphillathlete.com
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Background
00:00:12
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. I'll be your host today. My name is Alyssa Clark, if you've forgotten at any point. ah But I am stoked to bring you someone that I think really came on everyone's radar ah last year, but has been ah in the climbing world actually for only four and a half years, which is incredibly shocking considering all that you've done.
00:00:37
Speaker
ah But I have Tanner Wannish. I should have asked you about that before. Wannish? Wannish. Wow, the third choice. No, I get that all the time. It's okay. Tanner Wannish on with me. um He has, as I said, been climbing for four and a half years. He's a former Navy SEAL. ah He also runs or is on the board for crux wilderness therapy, which I'd also love to ask you more about.
00:01:06
Speaker
ah But probably what he's most known for is breaking some guy named Alex Honnold Handheld, someone like that, ah his record on the Yosemite Triple Crown. And you came in at 17 hours and 55 minutes. You've also done Nyad in nine hours and then decided that that wasn't enough, that you were going to do the quadruple adding in Washington column and completing that in 20 hours and 50 minutes. So ah the the triple is, well, I guess I'll just let you get into it. But, um, Taylor, thanks for being on. I don't know why I thought, uh, just thought of asking you to be on the last few days, but I was like, Oh my gosh, wow. Slam dunk, like easy, easy day. So thanks for being here.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for having me on. i'm I'm happy to connect here. I've been listening to the podcast for a while, so it's cool to call to come on and get a chance to just yap for a bit. Love a good yap. That was one of the best, I feel like, ah discoveries my friend told me about Gappen. I was like, Gappen is the best. It's great. Yeah, I could yap all day. I do it all the time. i' I'm pretty good at it too.
00:02:20
Speaker
but That's
Path to Becoming a Navy SEAL
00:02:21
Speaker
awesome. So I'd love to, I'm sure you've gone over this a little bit, but just a little bit about your background of, um you know, how you got into sports, where you grew up, and then also what led you into wanting to be a SEAL would be awesome.
00:02:37
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. Um, I grew up in South Carolina, uh, not outdoor inclined in any way whatsoever. Uh, I went to, uh, uh, the Citadel to military college in South Carolina. I was, uh, I was like one hair under a court order from going to the Citadel. I was like the definition of troubled youth coming out of high school as a ah bit out of control. Um, and it was, it was, uh, kind of, kind of a forced decision. Uh,
00:03:06
Speaker
to To go there and it ended up being like the best thing that ever happened to me. It it gave me a good sense of ah discipline and i I needed some rigidity and some structure and like a set of rules and and a good I needed some good strong male figures to tell me what to do at the time, which I definitely got that so I, uh, at the end of, at the end of college, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Um, I, I worked at, I worked at state farm the summer after my junior year for like the whole, for the whole summer. Um, cause that's what my grandpa did. And he was, he was very successful. And I just, you know, it's just like what you do. It's like, well, this is what my, like, this is what the guy in my family did. He's doing well. I'm going to go do that. Um,
00:03:50
Speaker
And one summer ah doing that told me immediately this is not what I want to do. i don't I don't think I'm cut out for a desk job for a variety of reasons. It's not going to be a mutually beneficial situation for me or the people in the office.
00:04:04
Speaker
so Um, I went to, uh, when I went back for my senior year, uh, two of my best buddies, uh, at this, at the Citadel, uh, Danny and Jay got, um, they got special forces contracts to go into the army. They were, there was like a big dream of theirs to go into the special forces it would be green berets. And they kind of, uh, kind of flippantly.
00:04:24
Speaker
Throughout like hey, you should uh, you should look at this the seal route um I didn't know anything about the seal teams. I didn't never met a seal. I didn't even know what they did um I grew up swimming my whole life I was pretty pretty good as deaf as I think I was the probably the best at Going into college was swimming like sports wise. I wrestled as well, but I was definitely better at swimming um so I had a pretty good water background and And it just seemed like this kind of like brutish ah fit where it was like, you're good in water. Why don't you go do this water, you know, water thing. And I did like very brief research on it. You know, I saw guys jumping out of planes and shooting guns and stuff. And like, yeah, that looks better than State Farm. Sure. And just completely like on a whim, went into their cruder's office and ended up dropping a packet. And I auto-qualified.
00:05:16
Speaker
for a bud slot which if you get if you have high enough scores across the board like a cumulative highest score you just auto qualify you get a contract within 48 hours and you're immediately you just get the next shift date that you want um so um like in in retrospect it's always embarrassing to say i didn't have like these grand lifelong dreams of like i need to you know embody honor and commitment and go like serve like Honestly, I just didn't know what else to do. It seemed like a really cool opportunity to test myself and um you know prove that I was worth. i It seemed like an opportunity to prove that I was worth.
00:05:51
Speaker
ah being counted on by others it's an opportunity to prove that you are somebody that people can look to in a time of like adversity or crisis or something it just seemed like a really cool opportunity to kind of you know test your mettle and see like are you one of these guys or are you are you the rest and statistically you're going to be the rest that you know the 95% that don't make it um but I don't know, everything, um it worked out reasonably well, all things considered. Obviously, there's like a million ways that could have gone horrifically bad. um it ah Yeah, it worked out well, and um i I shipped out right after college and did um about nine years in the
Transition to Civilian Life & Climbing Pursuits
00:06:30
Speaker
Navy. um Oh, wow. Okay. That's, yeah, quite a bit of time. Six and a half in the SEAL teams or so, just because how long the training pipeline is. It just takes takes a while to get there. so
00:06:40
Speaker
um Yeah, that that was the ah that was the general ah general route to the Navy. And then I i separated um in December of 2022. So I just got out just past two years now. Wow. Do you feel that, you know, I've actually never really heard, um and I should say, I think it was before my husband's in the Navy, ah spent a lot of time training people and working. I've actually trained some some special forces people.
00:07:07
Speaker
um And I've never heard it described as like being that person that people can count on as wanting to be a part of the team. do you How do you see that translate to being a ah rope partner or being on the wall? like Do you feel a similar kind of that sense of of partnership and such? Because it it seems like to me like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense because that's such an intimate relationship.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, no, for sure. there's i want to like every Every day I go out to climb with somebody, I want to be the best partner I can. I want to um you know understand, ideally, we've got shared objectives in mind on the kind of day we're trying to have, whether that's, hey, we're going to go project, we're going to climb really hard today, and we're not going to stop until we're totally trashed, or we want to do a big volume day, and we're going to climb until we're Totally trash, but it's going to be a volume you know and and we're going to do 40 pitches instead of like working the same one route all day. And, um, you know, I want to have that good attitude. I want to make the team, you know, a stronger team. You want to, I just want to add to the, add to the partnership, um, in every way I can and not take away. I don't want to be complaining. I'm not, you you will never in a million years see me show up late to go climb.
00:08:21
Speaker
that is like my biggest pet for you in the world and it's super common it drives me nuts but like I'm not gonna be late I'm not gonna hike slow I'm not gonna forget gear like I want to treat this like we're you know out there working to be to be a little better and obviously there's days where we're like hey we're just gonna go crag and we're gonna have fun and it's not a serious day. This is like a totally type one day and that's a different scenario. um But if if I'm going to go out for any sort of like actual objective that day ah with a partner, I want to be the best partner I can. I want to be somebody that people, you know, when they think of a big objective, they're going to be like, oh, I'm going to call Tanner to see if he wants to do that because I know that he's going to show up prepared with a good attitude and lots of stoke and He's going to maximize our chances for succeeding at whatever we're going to go do that day. So I just think that's like, it's the least I can do as a partner. And um honestly, that's what I'm looking for in partners as well as people that kind of embody those same values and stuff that, um you know, our time is valuable. I don't get to climb as much as I want.
00:09:19
Speaker
I would like to climb every day and anything less than that is going to be less than I want. So like show up 30 minutes late, like I'm probably going to be a little antsy when you get there and be like, okay, well, we just, you know, we just missed like already a pitch or two. And you know, if you halfway through the day, you're like, Oh, I just remembered I got to let my dog out. Like, okay. Well, we just lost five or six more pitches. And, um,
00:09:38
Speaker
So yeah, I just think it I just think stuff like that. I can also be like, I totally acknowledges I can be a little bit intense in the mountains. ah There's like two, there's two tanners for sure. And it's going to depend on what day we're we're looking to have. but Like I said, whether it's like, hey, we're gonna go crag with a group of 10 people, and we're just gonna have fun. Or, hey, we're gonna go do, you know, we're gonna go do Whitney, we're gonna go to Whitney lab, and we're gonna try to do it in under six hours car to car or something those are night and day different tanners and like on the second one it's it's kind of business and like i want to like push it hard and train and if you don't want to do that that's fine i'll go by myself but a lot of times that that like miscommunication or maybe uh misunderstanding on like we thought we had the same ah you know idea in mind but we don't uh has definitely resulted in a few like a few uh
00:10:29
Speaker
burn partnerships and stuff, not in a personal bad way, but just like, hey, maybe maybe we're not the best in the mountains together. So um yeah, and I just think it's important to communicate that beforehand on what kind of day you're looking to have. so Absolutely, I mean to be honest it I do the exact same thing with my running and actually had I worked with mental performance coach and and he put it really well of like There's runs that are meant to be shared with friends and family and are just for fun and then there's runs It's like that's mine. That's my training and like I am NOT willing to budge on what needs to happen that day and that
00:11:10
Speaker
differentiation I feel like really helped me too. I also, I mean, you can ask my husband Cody, I am like so antsy if I'm not getting my workout done the way that I want to the way it was written and on time. So I feel yeah. Yeah, I get pretty
Training Discipline & Partner Dynamics
00:11:28
Speaker
stubborn on that. i I will like routinely I mean, I would say at least 50% of the time. um I'll just say before we step off like hey, when we get to the top, I'm gonna run down, you know, I'm going to run 14 miles to the car and you can come with me or I'll meet you at the car. But like, I'm not, I'm not like, I'm not budging on that. I'm just letting you know that's what I'm going to do. Or if we're on the way up and it's like this, you're, ah you're immediately not keeping up for whatever reason. You're not having a good day or you're not fit enough or whatever. I'm just like, there are days where I'm just like, Hey, I'm
00:12:02
Speaker
I'll see you back at the car. I'm going to go. Cause like you said, like these, these, these training days are really important for me. And, um, yeah, I just feel like, um, I hate feeling like I left stuff on the table that day. I like to use up my, you know, I like to use up my days. Well, and, um, you know, I can't like, it costs something to go into the mountains every day and go do these like big mileage or big volumes or intensity days.
00:12:26
Speaker
And any of those that are wasted, I just don't see the reason why I would waste them. Why wouldn't I just say like, okay, I'll see you in two hours because you're not moving fast enough. I don't know. I know that's totally controversial. I totally get that. I i just literally value my my time. ah you know that's That's Tanner time. And like we said, there is definitely other time where it's like, Hey, this is a social day. We're going to hike as a group and we're going to chat. Maybe it's more of a mental health day. We're just going to talk and shoot the shit and kind of get into the weeds for a couple hours. And those are just as important. I totally acknowledge like those are very important. But that needs to be kind of maybe designated beforehand. I don't want to go out on like a day that I want to push hard and then end up being like, man, i'm like I have a ton left in the tank at the end of the day because I feel like I just i just like wasted you know an opportunity to get a little bit better. so Absolutely. I mean, i yeah.
00:13:18
Speaker
You're if not controversial to me because I always say, like if if someone is pacing me or you know we're going out on a run and believe me, I love people, I love community, all of that, but I'll say, like hey, I love you, but I'm not gonna stay with you. like If you're not keeping up, I am dropping you, sorry. yeah like Today is not the day. This race, not the race. like I love you so much.
00:13:45
Speaker
Most of my partners have experienced that problem. I don't know if anybody I've ever had big days with has not experienced that at least once where I'm like, Hey, love you, man. I'll see you back in the car. and I gotta go. so and it's yeah all like i nine I've had days where I've been on the other side. I've had days where I'm like, I had a day, I went out with Vitaly actually, we were just talking about him, where we went out and did like a spur of the moment circular towers traverse. And two thirds of the way through, I was like, dude, I feel fucking terrible. Like I am dying right now. I don't know if it was a nutrition issue or some just, for whatever reason, I wasn't performing. And he was obviously doing well. And I was like, hey, you go ahead, I'm gonna cut out this shoot. I'll meet you back at the car. Cause I don't want to hold him up. I know that he's like feeling strong and he wants to have that day.
00:14:34
Speaker
I don't want to be the guy that's making you wait on me. I know what that's like. It drives me insane. So like for God's sake, you go ahead and like have the day that you want to have and I'll just, it's not hurting my feelings. It's going to hurt my feelings way more if I'm like the anchor that's ruining your, you know, your day that you're trying to have. So I totally get it. There's no problem with being on either side. I just think it needs to, I wish it was a bit less personal of it. It shouldn't be like, it should just be like, Hey, you know, for whatever reason, we're not connecting today. So we're going to connect in an hour at the car. So.
00:15:04
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I i would say that i in the running world, that is much more acceptable. I would guess in the rock climbing world, that there's much more of that like, hey, we're just out here like having fun that you probably get more pushback. Yeah.
00:15:23
Speaker
A little bit, yeah. And also, like, it depends on if we're, you know, are we in technical terrain and stuff? Like, maybe we're, both like, Vitaliy and I soloed most of that, but, like, we're soloing it with the assumption that if we got into a situation, we have each other there in, like, a small rope that we can belay each other through. So I don't have the opportunity to just cut out randomly, because I would have cratered the entire day. So I waited until we were done with the technical climbing to then cut out, because, you know, it's if you're doing technical stuff or you're at risk, like, I don't want to leave him 20 miles deep in the mountains with no radio and no way to get in contact with anybody. And now he's by himself when he thought he was with a partner. So it's there's just considerations like that, too. And um yeah, it's a little more nuanced, I think, but just the idea of like making sure you're kind of on the same page with the day you're trying to have. Absolutely. And there's kind of two pieces that I want to touch on today, um one of which is thinking about, well, I guess
00:16:21
Speaker
You brought up this term, we were chatting a little bit before, but big alpine slash climbing endurance events. So you know you're talking like 15 plus hours out, moving through the dark, through the light, you know on the wall, running, et cetera.
00:16:41
Speaker
How are you thinking about your training for these events? um like How are you differentiating the technical aspects of the climbing and also making sure you know you do have the endurance to to go for that on?
00:17:00
Speaker
dude yeah um yeah i've been i don't know question Just a small question. We've been trying to like figure out a good term for this weirdly, like hyper niche style of climbing that we're doing. We've just been calling it technical enduro. Um, you know, like the, like the quad where you're doing this like gigantic, you know, you're in like technical terrain for 20 hours or something like that.
00:17:24
Speaker
And ah a lot of these big traverses are kind of, they're like, I mean, I don't know. not i Honestly, they're not that similar. They're like, it's you're in technical terrain where like you're definitely in no fall zones for quite for you know a large portion of the day. But it's obviously different than being 30 pitches up all cap or something. um But there are a lot of this stuff. So, I mean, I think the I think first and foremost, you need to be able to climb. You need to be able to climb everything that you're looking at climbing. um Like a hundred percent confidently would be like the would be the absolute like primary check mark. If you can't climb everything confidently, you you don't have any business in like adding, you know, 17 hours of that. like
00:18:08
Speaker
you you kind of need needs to be almost second nature the stuff that you're doing so when you're going out and doing you know grand traverse in a day or evolution traverse in a day or circular towers or like whatever yeah that climate needs to needs to feel like scrambling if you're up there and you're like he Obviously, this is all my opinion. I'm sure that there are other ways to do this. But in my opinion, it it needs to be, it needs to be, you need to be so comfortable doing that, that that's not, it's not a consideration. Because when you're on hour 18 on technical terrain, if you're not comfortable, yeah you know, that's like a, ah that's a serious safety hazard. You're going to end up in a complete halt.
00:18:47
Speaker
the wheels are going to fall off dramatically if you're not if you're not super super comfortable when you start 20 hours in you're going to be you know i mean just not going to make it that far there's no way um so i think that that's the primary thing making sure that you're super comfortable on either the grade that you're climbing or like the specific terrain whether that's super exposed ridge climbing or if it's speed climbing on OCAP or something like that. um It's understanding that you're you know this is well below your your pay grade in terms of technical difficulty. um So I think that's that's the first thing. um i think I don't know what I would put second, either the the mental head game or the physical fitness. I think they're both like equally important because
00:19:29
Speaker
If your, if your head's not right, obviously to do this stuff, you're not, you just, you just won't make it past the, you know, you won't make it past the first peak. Um, cause there's, there's definitely days that we've gone out to climb, to go speed climb. And I think speed climbing is like objectively probably the riskiest thing I've done like in my adult life, probably it's like, it's, it's just, the it is just.
00:19:50
Speaker
inundated with so much potential hazard. And it's all like one tiny mistake away. And you're your subconscious is very aware of that. like If you make like one small mistake, it could be fatal or it could be life changing. And we've seen that happen with you know professional climbers in the past. It's a very, very real reality that's like it's it's tangible at all times. it's you You will not forget that. So I've had days where we've gone out to speed climb. And I'm like, dude, I just don't have the gumption to go do these hundred foot runouts today, like for whatever reason, I didn't sleep good last night or, you know, maybe I had an experience recently that rattled me and I need to get my head back. Um, but I, you know, there's days where I've, I've just been like, I just don't, I'm not feeling as bold as I need to be today to do what we're, what we're looking to do. And then on, you know, congruently, same with the big, with the big soloing days in the mountains. Um, cause if you are going to do a lot of these bigger days,
00:20:45
Speaker
You're going to have to solo almost the entire majority, if not the entire thing to do that in a day and any sort of like remarkable time. It's just the reality of covering that much ground. It's just not possible to do it while you're like roping up and pitching out.
00:21:01
Speaker
so i've had days i've had plenty of days where i've gone out to you know by myself into the mountains and i've gone up to i i had a i had a day two years ago or something where i hiked up and i was gonna do i was just gonna solo the east buttress of of whitney which i've done several times and like for no reason in particular i just was like i just don't really want to do this today like i know that there's this little bit of an exposed section up at the top above the Pee Wee where you're like, youre you have like a thousand feet of air under you and it's super, it's like five six climbing. and It feels pretty secure, but like I just, I was thinking about that and I was just, I had trail runners on and that was my plan to go do this. And I just was like, I just don't want to, I don't want to experience that, that situation today where I have to like confront this fear, put it back in the box and then kind of like deal with it.
00:21:50
Speaker
So I just went up the Mountaineers route and it was a great day and it was totally fine. Um, and maybe I was just in my head and maybe everything would have been fine and it would have been a totally fine scenario, but I want to be like really attuned to that. Um, that little voice in my head that says, Hey, maybe today's not the best day to do that. And I listened to that 10 out of
Risk Management in Climbing
00:22:07
Speaker
10 times. Like I don't have days where I'm like, Oh, I have to solo this or I'm going to like lose everything, you know? So I want to keep that back door like.
00:22:15
Speaker
very readily cordoned off and accessible at all times to be like, Oh, I don't want to do, I don't want to take this risk today. Cause it is a lot of risk. That's the reality is like you can downplay it ah and say that this is well below your grade, but you are one mistake away from likely a life changing scenario. Um, and that's, that shouldn't be shied away from, you should acknowledge that and kind of confront that scenario. And then you can choose to go anyway, but you shouldn't ignore that. I don't think that's a good way to approach that. Um,
00:22:41
Speaker
So I think that, you know, obviously that's like the, the second thing is like making sure your, your head is right for these big technical Enduro days where you're going to be, um, taking more risks than you normally would. And then obviously the fitness, like, can you physically do it? Can you physically climb for 22 hours? Can you physically climb four walls in a day? Like, have you ever climbed 80 pitches in a day? Like it's gonna, it's gonna hurt. Like you're gonna start cramping up in really weird places. It's going to be very odd. Um, so, you know, that's,
00:23:09
Speaker
But but like all three of those things are like immediate deal breakers. If your head's not right, you you can't even start. If you physically can't do it, you can't even start. like They're all top tier important things because um I feel like a lot of stuff goes into these um They're just like these high demand, like kind of involved um dates where they just require like ah this really cumulative toolbox of fitness and headspace and ah technical skills. And that's like, that's what I love so much about it is like i
00:23:39
Speaker
You know i know, I could have gone and climbed El Cap a year into climbing. If I can climb 5'9", you can pull on gear, you can climb the nose. yeah Like realistically, if you can pull on cams and you can climb 5'9", you can go do the nose tomorrow. But you're probably not going to do it in five hours and then do three more walls. That's going to be something that happened years down the road after you've built that really good fitness space and volume and intensity. And I can do these 5'11 moves when I'm 68 pitches in.
00:24:07
Speaker
because if I can't do that move now I have to aid this pitch and now this pitch is going to take me an hour instead of five minutes. So like it's just this really cool comprehensive cumulative like I've put in all of this work across the board and all these categories and this is this is the prize right here is like these really big technical days. I'm sorry that's a lot of yapping right there. but no i That was amazing. I mean I guess I really just want to highlight the fact that you said that there are some days where it's just not the right time to do it. And I listened to that because I feel like the reputation that
00:24:43
Speaker
elite climbers athletes get is that we don't have that. We just go all the time. We like never kind of back off. And that is not the case. And I think and I love that you pointed that out and said like, yeah, I really listened to that voice 10 out of 10 times. i Listen, because that's what keeps us alive. First off, and it's also just it's very humanizing where it's like, no, we're not just hardos.
00:25:10
Speaker
all the time pushing to the absolute limits. There are days for that. And there are days where it's like, yeah, i I'm just not in the space for that right now. And that's equally important. Yeah. Yeah. So just thanks for saying that. Yeah. Yeah, of course. like it's you know which We kind of just touched on the the burnout stuff before ah before we started recording. But there just just to go back to your point on like backing off on that, i'm gonna I don't want to butcher this.
00:25:37
Speaker
I think this is Leo Holding. I don't know for sure. I could be totally wrong about this, so I hope somebody corrects me if I am. um I think he said, ah in terms of base jumping, he's like you know really big into the base jumping scene. And somebody, it might be Leo, said, I want to be known as the guy who walked away from the most base jumps ever. Because he's like, it's about walking up and like, if there's an ounce of me that says, today's not the day to take this risk,
00:26:05
Speaker
no questions asked, pack your shit up, hike down the backside. And you have nothing to lose from that. Like you got a great day on outside and like you're a hundred percent not going to die that day of base jumping. Whereas like maybe you had, but like I want to have a similar, a similar mentality with specifically these like high risk days where like, if I'm not feeling like I'm capable of like shouldering the load of risk that day, I'm not going to do it because that's when mistakes get made because now I'm not like I'm not thinking clearly and maybe I'm forcing stuff and if I'm forcing stuff I'm not listening to that little voice in my head and like I'm not I'm not flowing I'm not organic and like you know the more you like it's counterintuitive but like I don't want to be thinking out there while I'm doing stuff I need stuff to be happening kind of automatically um and
00:26:53
Speaker
Yeah, i just there the there are days to like push through that, obviously, and that's very valuable to have days where like, man, I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I don't think that high risk objectives are the time to do that, though. I think that's the time where you need to be your most willing to back off and say, for whatever reason, this doesn't feel right.
00:27:13
Speaker
And maybe I can't articulate exactly why, but um you know this is always going to be here. I'll do this next week. I'll do this next month. like i don't need to I don't need to take this risk today specifically. Maybe I'll just go run or I'll go you know do a bunch of top rep solo laps or something like that. um But I think that's an important part of being you know, not not having ego involved, not being stressed about like, what are people going to think? Or who did I tell I was going to do this? Like, it's it doesn't matter. It's your this is your longevity in the sport. And I think that's, you know, probably the most important part of the longevity is being willing to like, listen to those things that say like, maybe not today. Yeah. And I think that when you really start knowing yourself, knowing your body and your mind, there's a difference between
00:27:59
Speaker
Oh, this is hard. And I don't know, maybe I'm tired. Or I'm working really hard versus I don't feel okay about this situation. Like something is wrong. Like I think sometimes people think like, Oh, well, you just don't want to train hard or you're tired. Or it's like, no, it's not really that like there's some force that's speaking that saying like today is just not the day for this to happen and that's I think a very different voice than like hey you know I've been grinding and this is really hard but like I you know I need to push through I can do that
00:28:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally different scenarios. And like and like I said, there's there's great value in like hitting that wall and pushing through it on those days that like that you can afford to. um But yeah, I just i think that it's it's important to be able to to recognize that.
Overcoming Training Challenges
00:28:50
Speaker
I had a lot of trouble for for a couple years um with overtraining, like really, really badly overtraining myself into into these like chronic injuries like that I'm still dealing with today. like i terrible back problems still and like shoulder problems and knee problems. I've had knee surgeries and like torn labrum and stuff. And it's because I would I would refuse to acknowledge that that that reality for like for quite a while of of
00:29:18
Speaker
you know, hey, maybe today's not the day to just completely bury myself. And I would respond by being like, Oh, you're being a little bitch. We're gonna, we're gonna double down that, you know, that I'd hear that like inner monologue of like, Hey, today's not the day and to to really just you know, crush yourself. And I would respond by being like, Oh, I need to, I need to bury that voice so deep. So I'm going to do even more than I was going to. I was destroying myself. It was so counterproductive, like really hard, like self harmful stuff like that. And now I've gotten a lot better at recognizing
00:29:51
Speaker
you know, the difference between, um, between the reality of like, Hey, you don't have, you you just physically don't have that much to give today. Or you physically can't shoulder this mental burden of like the risk that you're looking to take versus maybe you are just being a weenie today. And like, you do need, you you do need to just push hard. Like maybe you are just tired, like train anyway. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to get better. I'm still working on that, but we're trying to differentiate a little more accurately now. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, to,
00:30:21
Speaker
in all fairness to you, I mean, your background is literally like the counter like counterintuitive to that thought, your background with seals, etc. It's just like, yeah, you go. It doesn't matter. Like feelings are not a part of this equation. Yeah. ah' be like I'm feeling it today. Yeah, it's not really so ah give you credit for that. like That's kind of been ingrained in you for a while, so I get on you that you're kind of trying to try trying to break away from that. But um I'm curious how your training breaks down when you're doing something like the triple of how much of it is kind of that
00:31:04
Speaker
endurance piece of running, hiking, um and how much of it is you know getting on the wall and climbing? um like how do How do you think about that in your training? Yeah, so it's it's obviously going to vary pretty dramatically from objective to objective. um So for for like the triple and in the quad specifically this year, um Mike and I met up ah like two months prior to the triple.
00:31:31
Speaker
and ah We just, we started, we, our our Yosemite season has kind of broken up into two, two parts. We had Tuolumne and then the Valley. Tuolumne was until the Valley got cool enough. And then the thought was, as soon as the Valley is cool enough to climb on the south facing walls, we'll immediately go to Yosemite. We'll drop everything.
00:31:49
Speaker
Um, so while we were in to all, I mean, the, um, one of our kind of back, back of the mind objectives was the backer you're in. So we were kind of trying to figure out it's just like big mental test piece. And to all, I mean, it's this really, really incredible route, but it's like very, very run out. it's ah It's like a pretty serious ordeal. Um, you know, something that if, you know, if, if you were capable of doing it one time, you would probably just do it one time and probably never again, um,
00:32:17
Speaker
So we were we were kind of like our our goal is to have these we were doing two on one off and ideally we would do the first day would be an intensity day where we're chasing grades we're trying to climb at least five twelve every day work on like actually sending pitches um kind of like you know more more power and intensity and that like specific contact power of being able to like do hard moves and then the second day we would do these like really kind of hilarious volume days where we just try to climb like three or four multi-pitch routes in a day just until until it was dark we just climb until we're completely trashed and the idea is you you always want to go into a rest day just like completely demolished and then the rest day is just spent doing R and&R and like skin skin care basically we just lay in bed and eat and do skincare and like stretch all day um which was awesome
00:33:08
Speaker
And, um, so we, we kind of had those two goals in mind where we were kind of orienting toward the back of your hand and then also working toward, um, toward the triple in the background. Um, so I'm like, I, this, I think this is kind of like, again, counterintuitive. I don't do much running at all.
00:33:25
Speaker
I do a lot of uphill work. ah i i loved I just told you, I got up at 4.30 today and did two hours on the treadmill uphill before this. And like I've been doing a bunch of ski touring in the mornings, like going doing uphill laps at the resorts here and stuff before the sun comes up. And um I really enjoy that. I don't do a ton of like pure running.
00:33:44
Speaker
for like no reason. I don't really know why I don't. I i keep saying I want to. um I was really big into running. no Honestly, that's not true. i I know why I don't do it because I like totally shredded my ankle last year or two years ago. I had that like complete blowout. i got I was like super excited. I was kind of going down this more of an ultra running path in 2023.
00:34:05
Speaker
where I was like pretty excited. I actually got a sponsored slot from the Navy SEAL Foundation to do the Leadville and under it. And I got accepted and I was stoked. I was like, this is going to be this big life dream. I thought that was like the most badass race in the world. um And then that summer, um I just catastrophically blew out my ankle. I had a full grade three ATO, fell rupture, and a bunch of grade twos and other ligaments. I was in a boot for a couple of months. And then I did it again a couple of months later.
00:34:32
Speaker
um and but ah Basically like haven't done a ton of running since then because I'm like I'm still scared on my ankles gonna fold It's like it feels like I'm like missing hardware in my ankle right now I can feel like there's a lot of looseness and lack of tension and um so yeah, i I ended up just switching over to doing like a lot of steep uphill stuff and um Hiking uphill with weight and stuff like that because I feel like I'm maybe a little less scared. I'm gonna fold my ankle um I'm supposed to get that that that ah ankle surgery, like the chronic ankle, but ah it's a lateral ligament reconstruction or they they cut all your this yeah they like cut all your ligaments off and then they like ratchet them down and reattach them because my ankle is just like useless. it's like
00:35:16
Speaker
my my wife on the couch a couple months ago, we were like late watching TV or something, and she grabbed my foot and like pulled it, and she subluxed my ankle, like with her, like just, just like accidentally pulled it out, and she was like, ah, what was that? And I was like, why did you just do that? And it, you know, it like popped it back in, and I was like, there was like no tension in my ankle at all. It's like really frustrating. or um Yeah, I was supposed to get that surgery last year, and I kind of kicked the can down the road, and now I'm like, I'm kind of just waiting for my ankle to fold again, and it,
00:35:47
Speaker
the The compromise with with the orthopedist was like, I was like, can I just wait for this to happen again and get surgery then? He's like, sure. It's, he's like, it's not if it's when it's going to happen. But if you want to wait for it to go again, we'll just do surgery then. I was like, okay. So sorry. I don't remember your question now, but that's why. i yeah yeah so i so so i you breaking up yeah Yeah. Yeah. So I don't do it kind of running. Um, yeah.
00:36:12
Speaker
How does for, yeah, um I mean, man, when you're like in the midst of everything, it's like, I do not want to actively choose a time when I'm going to have to stop all of this. And exactly yeah I wouldn't, I, I'm supposed to, I shouldn't have my wisdom teeth out much smaller thing. And I keep being like, maybe later.
00:36:31
Speaker
I mean no, it's it's a bummer though because I really enjoy I enjoy running like I really like it I've just been I'm like really in my head about it now because I've I've this ankle is folded I think six times now in the past like three years and each time it goes I'm in a boot for like two months like I can't crack climb for three months It's like it's catastrophic when it happens. It's like everything stops. I can't walk. I can't hike I can't climb like the world stops um And last time it happened was like right after we got out of the Navy and the VA health care wasn't set up yet. I was like in between insurances, so I didn't have a way to get the get the surgery right away, which is what I should have done. And then ah by the time everything got set up, I was like walking again and I was like, well.
00:37:14
Speaker
What if I just wait for it to happen again? You know, I don't want to, I don't want to take myself out now. Um, yeah so yeah, it's like totally not the right way to do it. I should just get this done. I'm just like, well, I'm already, I'm doing the stuff I'm doing right now and it's, you know, it seems to be functioning. Okay. So, um, but I know, I mean, I would like to run the Tally and I did that, did the rim, the rim, the rim, uh, last. Okay.
00:37:36
Speaker
this time or not this time, like in March of last year. um And that was like, that was literally the only day I ran, I think in all of 2024. There was the single only day I ran and it was awesome. I loved it. It was like such a great time. And I was able to do that because the amount of time that we put in, you know, hiking and and just moving outside and stuff, but it probably would have been a lot more enjoyable to do with like a good running base. So.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's, I mean, impressive that you did that, uh, without much of the running background. And that total sense that running is, yeah, you don't, you're like, well, I don't really know. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So when you're coming down, yeah, when you're coming down off of, you know, El Cap, um,
00:38:20
Speaker
Or, you know, in kind of the in betweens, are you just really fast hiking? Are you jogging? Like how also? ah kissing Yeah, we're like, we're like, we're jogging all the downs and flats. And then we like we kind of, you know, power march the up the ups and stuff.
00:38:36
Speaker
um But it's, I mean, those days are like, you're, that's just a long slow burn. It's like what I would imagine. I haven't done a hundred mile race, obviously, but it's like what I would imagine something like that would maybe trend, be a little similar to that. Or like you're not in, you're not in like zone three, zone four, like you're in you know zone one or two for like 20 hours. And it's like, there are definitely like, when you're leading pitches, there are times where you're jacking that heart rate up like quite a lot. Um, but.
00:39:03
Speaker
you know, then, then you're recovering while you're jogging and like jogging down East ledges or jogging, you know, jogging off Watkins is like, we're jogging, you know, a nine or 10 minute at pace. Like it's not, we're not like, we're not sprinting. It's, it's not, it's not much more exertion than just like,
00:39:20
Speaker
than just hiking, I think. so um you know my My partner Mike has, he he ran cross country for like forever in college and stuff. He's got a super good background of like a big strong base like this as well. um So yeah, I think it's important to not not you know not jack that heart rate up too much. And then obviously you bust for the entire day. um So that's all part of the strategy is like burning the long slow wick.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, do you think that one of the pieces of lowering that time could be like, you know, hey, let's just kind of work on the running aspect, increase that?
Integrating Running with Climbing Objectives
00:40:00
Speaker
Or do you feel is the percentage of that time that you're spending moving in between routes almost negligent compared to how much faster you can get the climbing piece?
00:40:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i think it's I think it's kind of negligent. if you're what like We made it down from from the Summit of El Cap in like 37 minutes. Oh, wow. OK, that's so much shorter. Yeah, OK. Yeah, we're like you know I could maybe get that down to like 28 or something. but like i But then I would show up and be like red lining and like not able to eat or something. I need to show up. And and meet as I walk up, I need to take in like 2,000 or 3,000 calories and then immediately set off for the death slabs up half dome. So it's like,
00:40:40
Speaker
I think yeah for something like that, I think the time is going to drop from logistics over everything. It's like how how confidently you can move on that terrain. and you know Every single aid move you can cut out is goingnna is going to save you time. Every second that you cannot waste doing a gear turnover or reracking or like whatever is going to save you time. and it's goingnna be kind of net As long as you're like not completely like just moseying around off of these summits and like, you know, approaches and stuff. I think it's going to be negligent kind of in the grand scheme for this specific like, you know, for for like the triple quad specifically. Yeah, that makes sense. um This is I don't know why I thought this but this is like the my immediate thought was
00:41:26
Speaker
When you're driving in between them, how much is the urge to be like, I got a speed, like, let's go. Or are you like, well. I wasn't actually driving. So we we got a, I got hand and my wife picked this up, uh, and then cleaned up the second time. But we, when we get to, um, we get, we start out by doing Watkins and then we run, we kind of jog from there. It's three miles to the road. Um, so I think we got there and like,
00:41:53
Speaker
a 40 minutes or something like that, like not, you know, just kind of like, just kind of not, I mean, we need to show up like ready to, again, ready to eat and then like ramp down. totally um So we got there and I mean, I think we, I think we said something like drive, drive intentionally, but like, you don't need to You don't need to be like throwing the cabinets open in the back of the van, you know, like shit flying out, like fridges falling out. Like um that's, you know, whether we get there 10 minutes earlier, 10 minutes later, like that's not going to make or break the day. But ah if we, if I, if we can eat as many calories as possible and then like try to get that systemic reset for like.
00:42:34
Speaker
ramping down and kind of like closing our eyes and just getting that, you know, that whole like, and that whole systemically, like, umm I'm back to complete zone zero right now to like restart. I think that's way more important. So, you know, if you're in the back, that road's pretty windy. If you're in the back of the fence, throwing, rolling around like this, it's going to be terrible.
00:42:55
Speaker
so Yeah, I have been back when we used to have a truck camper I have been in the bed in the truck camper driving on those roads and was Like I'm gonna die. i' I throw up everywhere. and I'm gonna die. This is the worst thing ever. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I know we ah hand hand rides in the back sometimes and we get on the roads So i I'll see her crawling out of the bed in the dark and come out front because she's getting sick getting thrown around back there Last last oh gosh i had one more question oh yeah and then we'll switch to last topic but
00:43:31
Speaker
How are you, and again, you're kind of, you're really primed for this kind of thing with the sleep deprivation um that I'm sure you had to, that I know you guys have to go through, um but how are you dealing, because again, like, sorry to keep using the trailer, that's just kind of my reference point, but like, I'm, when I'm, you know, 20, 30 hours deep on a run, I'm just thinking about like, hey, don't fall on that cliff. Like you guys are actually on the cliff.
00:44:00
Speaker
So if how are you dealing with that um fatigue? Like, do you get sleepy on these? ah How do you keep your focus levels up? Because obviously, there's just a lot more consequence. Like, that's the part that's always intimidated me about doing really technical long things is like, okay, I know I can stay awake, but like, can I keep my focus and Yeah. Yeah. So we did. Yeah. So that's definitely like a huge factor. So my man, I got so lucky someone in this partnership with Mike Michael Vale. He's like just like psychotically mentally resilient. He just loves suffering in this like really positive way. Um, just like limb. I've i've never, I've never heard him complain. yeah I mean, it's just like a bottomless source of like, you know, motivation and, and stoke on these big days. So.
00:44:51
Speaker
Primarily, I think that's really important to have a partner who's like, yeah obviously, you know, there is nothing worse in the world when you're like, starting to feel a little bit of the pain cave, and then the person that you're with starts complaining, and you're just like, ah ah like, Don't say another word, I'm gonna leave you behind. It's, it just immediately kills it. Like it doesn't matter what you're feeling, don't say it out loud. Cause like, you know, like on a race day specifically, if you're like, this is our time to just, this is not the time to complain, this is the time to, this is when you do put it back in the box. We'll talk about how bad this was afterwards. Don't say that again. And like Mike's really, really good about that. Honestly, I think a little, a little like maybe less good. I don't know. i'm like
00:45:34
Speaker
pretty quick to, not pretty quick, but I definitely in the quad had like on, on a I mean, we, we both had times where we were like, it, it wasn't complaining. It was like, it was saying, Hey, I'm just letting you know, as my partner, I'm not doing too good right now. And it's not, both of us know we're not complaining. That's like, Hey, I need, I need a little bit of oversight right now because like we are on consequential terrain and like for whatever reason I'm bonking.
00:46:01
Speaker
you know, I'll immediately start taking calories and caffeine and like whatever I need to do, but for the immediate moment. And I'll update you when I'm out of this hole. But like, I need you to keep an eye on me for a second here. And we both had he he had one of those on ah on um Washington column. And I remember when mine I mean, my on on the first one, mine was on El Cap, I was definitely a lot better on the quad. um But yeah, just being able to communicate that, um I think is really important. But Um, we, so, so on Washington column for, for example, um, I, I don't know why this just seems like an easy one. We, we repelled Washington column instead of doing the hike off. Um, that was third big wall that we did. We we started it at 5am and we topped out at 7am or something like that. And then we were repelling and repelling is statistically like where all the app.
00:46:51
Speaker
going to happen. That's like, you know, nine out of 10 accidents or fatalities will happen on the repel. So we topped out Washington column and then we're doing double rope wraps with a tagline on the whole way down. Um, just because the walk off is like, I hate that walk off more than anything. I don't know why I absolutely despise that walk off. And I was like, I'm just, I was like, I cannot do that walk off after three big walls and before a fourth. So I was like, let's repel this.
00:47:16
Speaker
um And the safety was a big factor we actually said like, should we repel this because if we do walk off, it'll be miserable, but we're not, we're probably not going to die where they're repelling like there's that you're just opening up all these opportunities for mistakes. So, when we got up there we were, you know, at that point we were I don't know, 20, 27 hours or 28 hours without sleep. And we were 18 hours into the day or something like that, 17 hours into the day. I don't know. um And three big walls in. So we're like very fatigued at that point. And the wheels are like starting to come off and you know the calories are just not really replacing it. And we're we're really foggy. And you know like when that sun rises on the second day and you kind of feel a little drunk and you're like,
00:47:58
Speaker
ah Oh yeah. but not like it just Not like really as cognizant as I need to be right now um and not as coherent as I should be. So when we got up to the top of that, we like we stopped and like had a talk and we were like, we actually implemented all of these like additional safety protocols that we normally don't do where we're like, we've just been climbing together a lot you know for several years now and thousands of pitches were like,
00:48:24
Speaker
We're pretty comfortable just on autopilot doing that. And we specifically said like, Hey, we're both going off of autopilot for these entire repels for every single repel. We are going to look at each other's attachment points. You're not waiting anything until you're on waiting that, or you're not on waiting until you're on waiting that and like everything's locked.
00:48:43
Speaker
You know, we did these, we we tied knots, we saddle bagged ropes, like we removed, and we were like slower on the way down for sure because of that. But it was better than, you know, on a good day, we probably could have burned those repels in like 20 minutes or so something crazy where we just like, we have it so ironed out. And on this day, maybe we took like 35 or 40, but that was an intentional decision that we did because now we're in this really consequential terrain where we know mistakes are are prone to happen.
00:49:11
Speaker
And we're super sleep deprived and we're tired. So we try to like inject a couple extra safety nets or like, you know, guardrails into these scenarios. But obviously when you're on, when you're leading and stuff, you know, when you're going up, like we, we simul climb the first 11 pitches of half dome and like one block and, and, um, you know, there, there are.
00:49:33
Speaker
you're You're generally in in a no-fall terrain the entire time. you If you fall at any point on that, you're, you know, Mike's placing like one or two cams maybe per pitch, some pitches in place, anything. So like, we're climbing a lot slower, but how we mitigate that is like, we did a bunch of laps beforehand. So we're so comfortable in that terrain that I'm not second guessing stuff. I get to a crux and I know that it's like, oh, finger lock here. And this foot goes out here and I can, there's a good jam right ahead that I can rest on and like,
00:50:00
Speaker
plug a cam to pull on. So you obviously can't remove that risk totally. We try to be really cognizant of like, hey, we're already doing high risk activities and now we're adding sleep deprivation and, um you know, supreme exhaustion to it and stuff. So we just try to be aware of that. Like I said earlier, like I don't want to shy away from that and I think it's not happening. That's not a good way to approach that by being like, no, we're fine. Nothing's going to happen. I know stuff can happen and we're trying to safeguard against that. But the reality is,
00:50:28
Speaker
if you want to do these, you know, these big technical, you will have to take that risk at some point until we find a way to like mitigate that further. and I just haven't really found a way to do that. If I could remove all the risk from, ah from the quad and do the whole thing and like some, you know, some fucking drone that flies behind me and as soon as I fall it catches my shirt and like I'm at no risk I would be happy to do that I don't need the risk to feel like I'm you know doing more it definitely exacerbates the kind of experience and in a very like real way um but not necessarily in a good way it just it's you know people get hurt people die doing that like I acknowledge that which is why I've said
00:51:07
Speaker
I've kind of been pretty vocal about I don't want to make a career like speed climbing moving forward. I honestly don't know if I will speed climb at all moving forward. I'm sure we'll do a couple of nyads and stuff like that's great. But I don't it just seems like it's disproportionately dangerous compared to the other stuff that I've been doing. um And it's, you know,
00:51:24
Speaker
we did the quad. I'm good. I don't need to keep seeking that risk over and over and over for what? like Let me go do something else that's like that I'm attracted to and is really inspiring. um So yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's generally how we approach it. No, I think that's, yeah, yeah ah totally. I mean, I think that's so it's such a good point of, Hey, we don't ignore that this risk, it did exist. We take more measures as you know, the fatigue levels rise. um Yeah, I always think that's the trickiest part often with climbing is that as you increase, like as you move upwards in the sport, I think that the tendency is like it becomes more risky. Like that's almost how you have to keep upping it. And that that always to me is like kind of an unfortunate part. It's the same in like skiing and ski touring, etc. It's like, okay, how but the bigger lines, the bigger routes, like, you know, then they are naturally more risky. And so yeah, yeah it's not like you just
00:52:30
Speaker
go faster or something. It's like, but well, there's like, there's both aspects of like, what can you physically do? Which is like, that's one leading edge of the sport, right? Like 5 15 D is like what you can physically do right now as a human. But then there's what will you do? And it's like, that's where a lot of that, that's, you know, that's the other leading edge of the sport is like, what risks will you take? That's unfortunately like those are the two that's where it bifurcates is like what can you do and what will you do and those are both like those are both the tip of the spear of like the leading edge of the sport and unfortunately one of those is a lot more dangerous than the other and it's this like it's almost this
00:53:09
Speaker
this like cheat code of being like, well, I actually can't do that much, but I will do, I'll just choose to like hit override on my you know manual safety meter in my head and I will do this thing that's like maybe obscenely dangerous or risky, but it'll catapult me into the spotlight because now i've I've chosen to take these risks and maybe I got away from it, or I got away with it and now it's going to inspire somebody else to push that a little
Balancing Advancement & Risk
00:53:33
Speaker
bit further. So it's like,
00:53:34
Speaker
kind of a double-edged sword. I think there is there is a lot of value and and um I think boldness and alpinism and climbing and mountaineering and stuff. I think there is there's a culture of like boldness will be this bedrock of the of the you know sport for forever just because that's it's kind of built on this like idea of of you know, the hard man courage in the face of certain death in the mountains. um But it's I do think it's a double edged sword because it sounds like we're going to hit a point of diminishing returns, obviously, at some point, which does happen. Somebody will take that one step too far and then everybody will take a step back.
00:54:13
Speaker
And then the next generation, some you know young stud will come out and say, okay, I'll do it and he'll get away with it. And then somebody else will leapfrog him and then he'll die and everybody will take a step back. So it's just kind of the unfortunate reality of these um like really a objectively risky yeah kind of objectives that people are looking at.
00:54:34
Speaker
so and I totally get it. i've I've contributed to that. I totally understand. like Doing the quad, we have to take we have to take safety shortcuts to do that amount of climbing in a day. There's no world where you can't. so i I know that ive i've I've contributed to this, and some young crusher is looking at that and he's saying, I can do five in a day. because I'll do, I'll take time off here and I'll take time off that. And I won't clip this anchor and we'll Simon climb all of this and I won't place any gear on this pitch. So now I can do this wall an hour faster. So I have time for a fifth wall. And like, I i know that's going to happen and I don't want to propagate this like dangerous, you know, it's not like a sexy thing. It's like, it's stressful and it's got to scary. It does have a place, but I think it needs to be approached super intentionally and cautiously and just people aware of what they're getting into.
00:55:23
Speaker
No, I'm glad you said that. I think it it is such a ah piece of the sport that I don't think is ah as obvious and apparent in other sports. I mean, you could look at cycling as like doping is kind of that like edge yeah and running. I think that's also doping as a part of it, um pushing that limit. But yeah, it it certainly seems less in your face as climbing and alpinism and all of that of like, yeah, too far is death. Unfortunately, yeah, that's all it's always the backstop like, it yeah, forever. That's always the pack stop is you will die if you if you're if you're incorrect here. um Which is like, you know, like that that that's sort of ah that sort of consequential
00:56:12
Speaker
result from an and from an intentional decision does create this like this sense of, not I don't want to say value, but like it does make this like a really meaningful sport to know that like I'm going to go test myself in the mountains and I know that if I'm wrong, I will die. like I know that. So maybe I'm only going to do you know the Whitney Trail and like the chances of me dying are very low.
00:56:36
Speaker
But not zero. It happens every single year. Every single winter, somebody dies on the Whitney Trail. So likes there's something to be said about going into a ah scenario where you know that you're at risk, but you're going to test yourself to make the right decisions and come home safe. But I i just think that it it gets a little...
00:56:53
Speaker
glamorized, I think, from a lot of social media stuff. And again, I know I've contributed this to this too. I understand that. I just think it needs to be approached like cautiously in a really intentional way, not not quite as flippantly as like, yeah, we're going to go you know do these death defying things because we're crazy. It's like, no, do it because you prepared and you know that you're confident and like you know you you have... i just think I just think the motives need to be like a little... They just need to be examined in like a way that that should matter.
00:57:24
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Could not agree more. And I want to tie that into and gosh, we're running out of time quickly. Um, but hopefully we can just touch base on this briefly. Uh, what.
00:57:38
Speaker
What kind of caught my attention, just because this is something I think about very often in the outdoor industry, is ah making it in the sport, you know landing that contract that allows you to climb professionally to do what you love um all the time. And you were able to just do that with La Sportiva. You have a few other sponsors. So congrats on that. It's not easy. And we'll we'll talk a little bit about that. but How do you grapple as you are headed into your first quote unquote season where you're really you know like on a team being paid to do these things? How do you how are you thinking about your objectives and
00:58:24
Speaker
what you want to accomplish now having that component that's like, at the end of the day, ah like I've said this so many times recently, um you want to be a good person, you want to be a strong part of the community as a sponsored athlete, but your results are the reason why you are a sponsored athlete. At the end of the day, you have to perform. That's literally part of your job.
00:58:51
Speaker
Um, like I have said this a lot and, um, talk to team managers, but like, how are you in this kind of space of climbing, et cetera, thinking and looking towards a season of being in that position? Yeah. Um,
00:59:11
Speaker
profit It's a tough question. Yeah. Just to be just bluntly, it does it's not even a slight consideration for me. Heck yeah. I mean, that's amazing. So you don't feel like... i think that I just have this natural inclination to want to push myself and kind of improve just kind of as a standard when I wake up every day. And if we did the triple, we did it. We had time left. Let's do the quad. That's an obvious progression for my partner and I. And I kind of have that in most climbing. OK, I'm climbing 512 very comfortably now.
00:59:56
Speaker
Let's work on 513 now. like I don't think I'm... I mean, at the moment, I'm not struggling at all to stay motivated to like do these big objectives. um I have an enormous whiteboard in my shed with... probably 50 different things on it that I want to get done. um I don't, I don't know, I don't want this to sound like I'm not, I'm not, this isn't supposed to be self aggrandizing in any way. I'm not trying to like, oh ah so I just think that I feel very compelled to like, do these things that inspire me. um And they just happen, at like at the moment, they happen to be on, um you know, on or near the cutting edge of the sport. So I think that as long as I'm
01:00:40
Speaker
um prioritizing the stuff that is really inspiring for me and that I want to get done I guess the most right now. It just happens to also be the biggest things that are being done at the moment in these like very specific niches inside you know climbing and stuff like that. So um like we talked about earlier this year is like this will be like the year of the traverses and like the stuff that I'm looking at doing is our most of the biggest traverses in the entire world and like or in at least in the in the United States and um That I'm doing that whether I have all the sponsors in the world or whether nobody gives a shit and my Instagram page is deleted tomorrow I'm doing the exact same thing regardless like I'm gonna keep taking the same pictures if Instagram got shut down tomorrow as an app I'd be texting them to friends being like look at this how beautiful this is amazing, you know and like
01:01:33
Speaker
The social media stuff has been an incredible asset for me. um to be ah um I'm not delusional. I know I'm not a professional climber in the sense that like I don't climb 5.15 or 5.14 or 5.13. I totally acknowledge that. i've like I'm just trying to pursue what I'm really passionate about and what's kind of inspiring. and Social media has been a big ah a big way to provide value, I guess, where maybe I'm not on the cutting edge of these like specific kinds of the sport where I don't climb that hard in the grand scheme of things, which is completely true. But um I really like telling stories and like sharing these experiences and stuff.
01:02:08
Speaker
um so i Yeah, I don't know. whether i Whether I have the support from these companies or not, i'm with all the free time that I have, whether that's all day because they're paying me to do this, or it's on the weekends because i'm now I need to go get a with regular job, I'm going to keep doing the stuff that inspires me
Sponsorship & Climbing Passion
01:02:26
Speaker
the most. I'm going to keep sharing it. because it I think it's really, I don't know, it's really gratifying. Like I get messages all the time from people being like, hey, we went out and we we bought a van, you know, this week or like we went out, we tried rock climbing or we went hiking or I've got i've gotten hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of those messages now at this point from that page.
01:02:44
Speaker
um of people that have have been like inspired to go do this stuff just because I had a good day and I felt compelled to like share that experience as an opportunity that like, hey, you can also have this good day. I'm not saying look at me. I'm saying look at this. You can do this too. This is awesome.
01:03:01
Speaker
Um, so whether the, whether the, you know, the, the brands want to support that or not, it's it's awesome that they did. I'm like extremely grateful that sportiva signed me. Um, and and we just talked about this before I got signed to a two year contract, like on salary, which is just like this craziest thing in planet earth. So like now we can really lean all into this and not stress about, um, you know, how are we going to pay the mortgage and stuff? Cause we also talked about this too. There's this funny like notion that if you're,
01:03:29
Speaker
You're like rolling in the dough or are you making a ton of money if you're like, if you have Instagram followers? bowl like People leave comments all the time being like, he's super rich. like He's got followers. He's getting paid. I'm like, who do you think is paying me? I'm making no money here. we we have like My wife works full time and she's been incredibly supportive. ah We get some money from From the VA coming in, that's like you know stuff from from the military, which is great. We donate a large portion of that to Crux every month because I feel like that's the least I can do when I'm like getting a paycheck. And then none of it's like a livable wage. If my wife wasn't like working and supporting this and like allowing me to like have this opportunity to push and try, this would have i wouldn't I couldn't even have gotten off the ground. We never would have started. like
01:04:13
Speaker
You know, it's like, it's almost embarrassing to say, but like she's enabled this whole thing. It's been an incredible opportunity. So now that these brands have like kind of back backed to us and like Maxim and Coros and Sportiva and black diamond has been like a huge gear support and stuff. That's the only reason I'm here is that they've like taken a chance.
01:04:31
Speaker
And it means a lot that they've looked at me and said, like maybe you're not doing you know you're not climbing 5.16 today, but we think that you're going to be a good investment enough that we're going to partner with you. like We're looking at the trajectory, and hopefully you're going to continue this this like growth in years to come. And that's kind of like been my pitch the whole time, is like, hey,
01:04:51
Speaker
Like, you know, I'm not making headlines quite yet before the quad. But like, look at this trajectory. And I think if you guys get it now and support me, you know, I'd love to work together in five years when we are at the point where we're like, hey, this is, you know, this is like the the biggest thing that happened this year is like, you know, Tanner is partner doing this new big thing. And it's like an exciting thought. But like it doesn't happen in a vacuum. You like need that support. I mean, gosh, like,
01:05:21
Speaker
couldn't have, not that like there's a right answer, but like, you would be doing it anyway. Like you would be doing all of this anyway, whether or not that's the only reason that decides to Yeah, that's really not the case for everyone. So yeah, that's yeah.
01:05:39
Speaker
I'm not waking up at 4.30 and walking on a dumb ass treadmill with hours. if i like but To go appease my $400 a month sponsor is like, I'm not. I'm not going to go do these like horrific 20 hour mountain days where it's like negative 10 out. like That's fucking hard. It's hard work. You have to love that.
01:05:58
Speaker
You're not going to do anything. I'm sorry. Just bluntly. You're not going to do anything remarkable unless you love this sport because the amount of time and energy that is required for you to like put in and sacrifice to do anything worth talking about is enormous. And there's not a there's not a paycheck that will ah motivate you to do this if you don't really love it. It's just not possible. it's There's no way.
01:06:20
Speaker
so Yeah, whether they're the the support is incredible, it's it allows me to focus more fully on this stuff that I love, but like it's not going to change anything. I'm posting the same pictures I did today that i that I did when I started climbing five years ago or whatever. Whether I got two likes on it or a thousand likes on it, I don't care. I just want to share stuff that like inspires me and that I want to share with people and be like, look at this. This is beautiful. This is awesome. You can do this too.
01:06:46
Speaker
so Yeah, it's cool. It's super cool. Yeah. it um it's just It's funny, I always joke, like as I've kind of moved through the sport, you know race bonuses get bigger and stuff, but I'm like, man, my hourly rate is still shit. like If you look at all the all the hours, like my hourly rate's really bad. so i totally yeah I totally hear you. It's definitely not. ah i mean It's worth it you know if it enables me to keep going out. and like It's such a much like a privilege and a blessing to be able to wake up every day and just be like, what am I going to do today to be able to perform better at my next objective? Whatever that is. like
01:07:29
Speaker
And like if that's going and doing four hours of like uphill touring with weight, or like if i need to go for you know if I need to go to the gym and do 100 pitches or something, like I love that. That's awesome. And then I come home and I'm like, holy wrecked. I'm like, what an awesome day. like I did something that's going to further me doing better at something that I really care about.
01:07:50
Speaker
Cause like I really care about these like big, big days and objectives and like they they mean a lot to me. Um, and it's just like such a privilege to be able to put in that time. It's been, I mean, granted it's been a fucking ton of work and like, you know, that it is a lot of work. Like, I mean, probably hundreds of emails at this point, like of outreach, most of which just get completely ignored and like a million knows a million people. And like, definitely like a lot of, a lot of like, you know, tough, like.
01:08:20
Speaker
you know you get your hopes up for like certain brands or supporters sponsorships and then like they don't come through and like there's like some parts where like what the fuck are we doing man like this is not working this is not like i had that recently after uh we Um, I I was I got invited to to to come on the black diamond ambassador team, which I was super excited about um, and then uh when just I I don't I don't I don't I I have nothing bad to say about black diamond at all But when the when the contract came out, it wasn't it wasn't a good fit It wasn't a good uh, it wasn't a good fit for us to sign that officially and man it like that felt like
01:09:00
Speaker
that felt like this pinnacle of like, oh, if I'm a Black Diamond supported athlete, like there's nowhere higher to go. I just rise within Black Diamond, but like there's nowhere to go laterally. Like this is it. This is the top of like the climbing world. And um And it it was like, my when I got the offer, like officially, my wife ah had, we had this big celebration dinner and it was just like, it just felt like everything had like worked and we're like, holy crap, we did this. But it was always like, let's wait to see the contract. And the contract came out and it was like,
01:09:31
Speaker
fuck man. Like immediately we read it and we're like, this isn't going to work. And so we ended up, we ended up backing out and like, now I'm going to keep, I'm still working with them. I'm going to keep working with them and like a less formal sense. They're still, they're still incredibly supportive. They've done probably more than any brand at this point um in terms of like the the gear support and everything. But um Yeah, that was like such a low point when that fell through and I was like, what now? like Where do you go? like what do you What do I even do now? like this is I'm not making money doing this. I have to go get a regular job. and like I'm not complaining. That's just the reality. like If we're going to have kids, I need to support my family.
01:10:08
Speaker
been the thought all along is like, as soon as we have kids, as soon as my wife gets pregnant, if I'm not making a sustainable and income with this, everything stops immediately. I go get a job, which is the way it should be. I want to support my, my family. I don't want my wife to work while she's pregnant, while she, we have a newborn, like, you know, so I was like, I've had this big digital bomb timer in the back of my head, like counting down to like, when are we, when we're having kids and like, I have this much time to make this work. And if I don't make it work by then,
01:10:34
Speaker
That's it. I'm done. It didn't, and I tried, it didn't work. I failed, gave it my best to go back to State Farm, whatever. Like, I don't know. So it's, it, it, see farm but and and yeah know it was like really, really special. That sporty, but kind of came in at the golden hour and, and like right after the the last one kind of fell through and they came in and, um, yeah, it it just feels really cool that they like see something in me that's worth investing in. And, um, yeah, I just, I hope I can earn my spot on the team this year. I'm stoked.
01:11:04
Speaker
I'm sure you can, but oh man, like, yeah, I have had that heartbreak so many times and you're like, this is the, this is it. This is making it.
Self-Perception & Motivation
01:11:15
Speaker
And then you realize that like making it is not what you thought it was. You'll probably with your personality, as I'm guessing we're pretty similar. well actually never really feel like you make it even though on paper like my husband will be like you're making it I'm like no I'm not I could get x y and z I could rise in this way I could do this and it like you're never really gonna feel that um but also like gosh yeah I've had my heart broken so many times and it it honestly is probably the most
01:11:46
Speaker
it feels so personal where you're like, you try to be like, it's just a business. It's okay. But like, you're literally saying it is personal. Cause it's you you're like, yeah um'm it's not like, Hey, X, Y it's like, no, it's literally you that feels like he's been directed. Yeah. I, I say that. And like, it's like a brand looking at me and going,
01:12:06
Speaker
No, not you yeah well yeah yeah what yeah it Totally ah it feels personal. Yeah, it's like, oh man, that's like kind of brutally here and after like, you know Dozens and dozens and dozens of those you're like, is it me? I suck yeah yeah i really struggle with the ah I have this like really, really constantly just like brutally negative inner monologue that's like, I'm trying to work on and I think part of it's been really beneficial for like, it's a great motivator, honestly. oh yeah You know, the incessant shit talking to yourself is like actually a great way to get a lot done. But it's actually pretty brutal too. So like, right after we signed with Sportiva, I like said something to my wife or I was like, yeah, I i mean,
01:12:52
Speaker
They only signed me because I have Instagram followers though. And she was like, shut the fuck up. You always do this. You always do this. And I'm like, well, I'm not even that good of a climber. And they just want to care about that and not athletes. And she's like, you are out of your mind. This is insane. But I do that every single time where I immediately try to demean or take value out of these accomplishments or status or value or whatever. And I'm trying to work on that a little more.
01:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. i it's ah yeah it's It's something I'm trying to figure out still. it it's it's kind of It's kind of been a tough a tough ah lesson to learn. Yeah, well, I can attest to someone who has been, gosh, doing it like probably eight year at like seven or eight years where I've been like, OK, maybe I can start reaching out, et cetera. Yeah, you'll probably still keep feeling that way. Also, when you're like, oh, I'm not really like you know cut like at the top of climbing etc well i'm gonna call bullshit you're a different kind of climber but you are the top of that type of climbing i think it's like like it's like in the ultra world saying like well i'm not the best 50k or in the world but i'm really good at 100 miles or whatever like there is a lot of yeah so you are
01:14:09
Speaker
very like at the top cutting edge of your area of climbing. Yeah, like I couldn't touch a fast 50k or that was really going after it. Like that's just not my strength. um But 100 miler like, yeah, let's go.
01:14:26
Speaker
So just yeah a different different fields of the same sport, which I think it's so cool that we're at the point in sponsorship where that differentiation has value. like It's not just one, it's like there's a range.
01:14:41
Speaker
That's actually a good point. I haven't really, for some reason, right? As soon as you like compared that to running and the did did the different disciplines between short distance and long distance and ultra distance and stuff, that like immediately was a palatable way for me to see that like, Oh, you're right. Actually, that's like, you know, I don't need to run the a hundred yard dash, the fastest and also be the fastest a hundred miler. That's not possible. Like, it's not possible. Yeah. Yeah. that's have you have an endurance piece that someone who's at the, you know, shooting for that 515 D 516, that's just not on their radar. Like that's not going to help them be whereas you're trying to do something that's just requires a ah much different load and capacity.
01:15:31
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah, I know. I think I have a good ah propensity to suffer positively. And I think that that it's kind of why I've like, I mean, obviously you do it too. Like it's that's, that's like why we're, you know, kind of in these like masochistic ultra enduro things, are right? Because you get to, you get to really like get to know yourself
Endurance Sports & Self-Discovery
01:15:51
Speaker
pretty well. And it's, it's cool. It's it's a cool experience.
01:15:55
Speaker
It is. um Awesome. Yeah, gosh, we got to have another podcast because I feel like we could keep chatting about all of these pieces. um Also, you have one of the best Instagram handles. I like big buttress. I laugh every time I see it. It's great. Hand hated that so much. We actually, I don't know know. We started out as like, as like just this adventure page of like, uh,
01:16:23
Speaker
ah you know we like bought our first van and we started climbing and just like everybody else we're like we're just gonna share like what we have going on and stuff and like I just kind of I had this like big breakthrough year that like took off and a lot of the stuff I was doing was like getting some notoriety and and the page just like slowly kind of morphed into mine but I, but that wasn't our original page name. And I, I remember we were driving in the car and I was like, I've got the best idea. And I pitched that and she was like, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. She thought it was so dumb, like so against it. And I was like, I got a good feeling about this. And I just, I turned it over and we never looked back. I love it. I was wondering if she was like pro or against it because I could see both.
01:17:08
Speaker
You did not like it. And it's really funny now we're at we're a point where we get like, we get recognized like ah quite a lot at, you know, especially climbing places or gyms or like anywhere like that. And ah that's like how everybody they're like, Hey, you're big buttress. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. It's kind of kind of funny, but yeah, I love it.
01:17:26
Speaker
Oh, that's awesome. One last fun question.
Diet & Recovery Adventures
01:17:30
Speaker
ah What's your go to like as you're cramming food in, in between clubs, what's your go to for that fuel? Oh, beef. Yeah, I'm not very creative. beef i'm like yeah I've been on I know I'm like, we, I've been on a primarily carnivore diet. i We could do a whole podcast about this. Somewhere somewhere a nutritionist is listening to this, like like ripping their eyeballs out of their head. I e ah eat one meal a day, almost every single day. I don't eat until at least 5pm every day.
01:18:06
Speaker
Like no matter what and then at 5 p.m. I'll eat like two pounds of beef in a sitting and then I'll have another dinner Generally at like 7 p.m. Or something like that um But I have like a two-hour window that I just cram like thousands and thousands of calories in So on our on our triple actually we got we got a bunch of tri-tip and our um oh my gosh Our old school climbing buddy, John Bernhardt was out, he was grilling a, he was grilling tri-tip at three o'clock in the morning at World Cup picnic area. So when we, I'll send you a picture when we get off this, but when we got off the El Cap, we went running down the East ledges and he's got this like, he's got this barbecue cookout set up at 3 45 at El Cap picnic area. Like it's a summer day, but it's like 20 degrees in the middle of the night.
01:18:52
Speaker
And he's out there flipping tri-tips like, hey, breakfast is ready. And we just started riffing, like, riffing steaks down. It was so good. we just I don't know. I feel like that helps me, like, recover the best. I'm also a sucker for, like, some you know some milk duds. if we're in if we're If we're getting sweets down, milk duds is like my go-to, so. Nice. Just got to get some cow component, you know, the milk, the tri-tip. That's awesome. Oh, fun. Sweet.
Promoting Veteran Support Initiatives
01:19:21
Speaker
well Tanner, people can find you it. I like big buttress. Is there any any other pieces you want to plug or or places? ah No, no i oh i yeah I just want to plug Crux Wilderness Therapy, the nonprofit. Yes, please. Yeah, I just think it's like the coolest program in the world. And just like a 30 second like brief you know synopsis, we ah we provide outdoor climbing clinics every single weekend around Southern California.
01:19:48
Speaker
ah guided by AMGA guides. They're completely free for all veterans, service members and their families. So if you want to learn how to climb or like you want to go climb El Cap one day or like whatever you want, come out to our clinics. um Our guides are all veterans and we're there to facilitate literally whatever you want. We're just providing free AMGA guides to like break down all the barriers to entry. entry So if you have been climbing and you want to learn how to climb trad or multi-pitch or big wall or whatever, we can do whatever you want. It's just this really cool resource.
01:20:17
Speaker
um it's We're a wilderness therapy resource, and if you just want to like get outside and you know enjoy out you know the the blue skies and sun and like not think about all your problems for a day, come out and climb and like get away from reality. It doesn't matter. But our our Instagram page is cruxwilderness, and then cruxwilderness dot.org. It's the coolest program in the world. It's awesome. So ah yeah, get on it. Oh, that's super cool. Yeah, I love that.
01:20:43
Speaker
Um, awesome. Well, Tanner, thanks for coming on. We'll have to bring you back on for sure. Maybe to talk about some meats. Um, and, uh, yeah, good luck. I hope that, uh, yeah, we, we cross past paths soon, sooner rather than later. Yeah. Awesome.
01:21:03
Speaker
Thanks for coming on and thank you for listening to the uphill athlete podcast. If you can rate, review, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform helps us get in front of more people. Thank you for listening. It's not just one, but a community. We are.