Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Training for Speed and Longevity with World Record Holder Zach Bitter
4.2k Plays4 days ago
Ultra-running coach and legend Zach Bitter joins the Uphill Athlete Podcast to discuss the mental and physical strategies behind his record-breaking performances in 100-mile races. Host Alyssa Clark chats with Zach about his evolution in the sport, from his early trail running days to mastering fast courses like Desert Solstice. Zach dives deep into managing monotony, training with rate of perceived exertion (RPE), and how mountain races like San Diego 100 contributed to his speed-focused events. He also reflects on career longevity, transitioning from traditional sponsorship, and his growing interest in multi-day ultras. This episode is packed with insights for endurance athletes, whether you’re training for a summit or chasing distance records.
If you'd like to check out our special offer for podcast listeners visit: uphillathlete.com/letsgo
You can also write to us at coach@uphillathlete.com
Recommended
Transcript
The Mental Grind of Ultra Running
00:00:00
Speaker
What I found with some of these like really flat, monotonous 100-milers is that does wear on you. So you have to be so good at not just years, sometimes decades plus of like really kind of learning to stay excited or finding ways to stay excited as you were originally to be able to really go to that last bit you have on race day and get that result you're looking for.
Introducing Alyssa Clark and Zach Bitter
00:00:28
Speaker
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. I am very excited to bring on a legend of the ultra running sport. He has been running ultras since 2010.
00:00:45
Speaker
He is a podcast host, a coach, I think a name just synonymous with our community and with the sport. So Zach Bitter, thanks so much for being on. Yeah, thanks for having me Alyssa. I'm looking forward to chatting.
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, well, first off, I didn't even say what you've done in the sport ah from a results spot because you are, i mean, such a legend in just what you've given to the community from, I think, in education, from just...
00:01:13
Speaker
um all of the pieces, but you are currently the 100 mile American record holder with a time of 11 hours, 19 minutes and 13 seconds. I have to say the time because it's absolutely insane.
00:01:26
Speaker
The current 12 hour American record holder with just shy of 105 miles. You've been a four time national champion, on the San 100, Javelina 100, Ice Age 50 miler, ice age fifty mileer And also used to be the world record holder for the 100 mile treadmill effort, which is insane to me.
00:01:47
Speaker
Love to get into that more as someone who spent a lot of time on treadmills, too.
Zach Bitter's Ultra Running Journey
00:01:51
Speaker
But um yeah, Zach, what led you into this kind of crazy world of ultra running? Because you started in 2010, which is on somewhat of the early side of the sport. But what got you here?
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting. I think of my like evolution through running as being maybe a little bit more gradual than what, what you'd expect from someone who's made a profession out of it.
00:02:18
Speaker
ah Whereas like you know, I ran in high school and college, but I was never putting up times in some of the more Olympic distance stuff to ever really think that there was a path forward there. So I sort of learned to run for the sake of running, where was like, is this a hobby that I'm willing to invest a couple hours a day in on a regular basis while I'm still working? And you know, chasing my career with, at the time was teaching.
00:02:40
Speaker
And, you know, the answer then was yes. I was curious, interested, motivated to do those, those days where you wake up at 430 in the morning, run a couple hours, then go into work and then maybe train again after or something like that.
00:02:51
Speaker
Um, and that sort of led me to just exploring like what it was about running that I really enjoyed. And, you know, when I started just going through like the Rolodex and different kind of workouts and the styles and structures of them and maybe where their inputs are, when it came to like, well, which ones do you actually really look forward to where you're just like, you see that schedule and you're like, that i can't wait to do that one.
00:03:14
Speaker
It was, was usually the long run. So and that probably like made me a little bit more like susceptible to finding the ultra world and um through kind of some of the stuff we were chatting about before, before the podcast, in terms of the storytelling aspect of the sport, you know, you see some of these stories, and you kind of get excited, like, Oh, wonder what that would be like.
00:03:33
Speaker
So I was actually just looking for a race to do one, one summer. And I found this 50 miler in Wisconsin, where I was living at the time. And it's like, well, maybe I'll just try that and see what happens.
00:03:45
Speaker
And my my thought process there, I think it was like 24 at the time, 23 24. was just like, and i was just like looking at like, okay, well I'll do this just to see what it's like. And then i probably won't another one until I'm in my thirties. It's my mindset because like at that time it was like, you know ultra running is kind of what you do maybe after you sort of exhausted your, your potential and some of the shorter distance stuff.
00:04:06
Speaker
And I did it really, really fell in love with that experience to the degree where that same race, the following year I did it. And then I was sort of no, looking back, I was like, okay, I'm going to do ultra running now going forward. That's going main focus.
Exploring Ultra Running Events
00:04:18
Speaker
Um, if I jump into things that are like shorter than that, it'll be for like training purposes versus I'm going to spend half a year peaking for this marathon or something like that. And, um, that opened my eyes to the world of ultra running, but I was still like super ignorant to it. Like I didn't know ah about anything really other than the trail side for the most part.
00:04:36
Speaker
And as I sort of started doing more races and learning more, i kind of learned about like, okay, well, there's like timed events, there's track ultras, there's mountain ultras, there's all sorts of different stuff. in Um, that sort of led me to where I probably spent most of my time focusing more runnable hundred mile things and like races, like the desert Salsas track invitational. And, um, the funny thing about that is I did desert Salsas the first time in 2013.
00:05:00
Speaker
And that's where I, I broke the American record for a hundred miles. The first time i didn't even know there was a 12 hour event or a 12 hour world record. So Nick Curry, who was more hands-on with Aravico back then, he was out there like RDing that event. And he told me like,
00:05:16
Speaker
just before mile 90 about the 12 hour world record. So it was like, I learned 90 miles into that race that that was actually another event within the event essentially that I was in. And yeah, yeah. You kind of learn with everybody else, I guess, for the most part with that sort of stuff. And, and that, that kind of got me hooked on just, Oh, okay. There's a, there's actually like an element here of specificity within, you know, training, you know living in Wisconsin, I did a lot more road running and flat stuff than I did mountain running and stuff like that. So,
00:05:45
Speaker
being able to do events that maybe cater to my training a little more specifically was, was kind of eye
Mental Challenges in Ultra Marathons
00:05:50
Speaker
catching. And then having a really positive first experience, I think really set me up to be able to tolerate maybe the the variance in mentality about being on a 400 meter track for an ultra marathon versus out on the trails and more scenic areas.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yes. I wanted to, just for our listeners who might not be aware of what desert solstice is, it's well, but I assume there's a number, i mean, known for being 24 hours is kind of the actual event. And then there's kind of records that can be set within it.
00:06:21
Speaker
Is that correct? Yeah. The way, the way I usually look at it is it's like, it's a 24 hour a event, but within that, the real framework of desert solstice is we want to create an avenue where people can chase records.
00:06:33
Speaker
So whether that's the 24 hour, the 12 hour, a hundred miles, a hundred K even 50 K and then age group too. So Any given year that, uh, that Solstice ends up having a pretty good field, you're going to see a variety of that, where you might see someone chasing the, you know the 50 to 55 year old, a hundred K or best or something like that.
00:06:52
Speaker
Uh, or you might see someone trying to hit their, their, the American record in the 24 hour or what I've done mostly at those events to date it would be chasing a fast hundred mile time. And yeah, you can do a lot within it and and it's just set up with that kind of like record chasing man mindset in place.
00:07:09
Speaker
Love it. Yeah. And so this is based it on a track. It's a high school track. Yeah. Yeah. A high school track in Arizona in early December.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah. Time frame so that it's good temperatures. And there you guys are there's. tent set up so you have aid as much as you want, don't have to carry anything. So these are set up to run fast. But on the other hand, you are running around a track for that period of time.
00:07:39
Speaker
So I can tell you I've done attempted, not even done, one timed loop event. Um, well, actually I was trying to do a hundred miles.
00:07:50
Speaker
It was around a one ish mile loop and I was losing my mind and stopped at 50 K. I was just looking up the mountains cause it's based in California. was like, I just want to be up there mentally.
00:08:03
Speaker
What are some of the, elements that you lean on to work on
Training for Mental Endurance
00:08:11
Speaker
the monotony. And these are great because we have a lot of athletes who are training to climb Everest, Denali, et cetera. And they live in New York city, they live in Florida. And so they're on a stair master or they're running stairs in their stairwell on a treadmill. And I always say that if you can mentally deal with say a four hour or five hour session on a treadmill or running up and down your stairs, you're gonna do great.
00:08:35
Speaker
And I feel like some of that translates a bit from what you are able to do on a track or a treadmill. So how, yeah, what are some of the mental pieces that you bring into these events? Yeah, it's a great question. The way I usually describe this is you gain a huge advantage logistically when you get on a short loop course like this, because like you said, you don't have to worry about packs. You don't have to worry about, is it going to feel weird to carry a bottle because You're getting access to that basically whenever you want it. You don't even have to really worry about mistakes with that either, because like if my crew hands me the wrong thing or forgets to hand me something, I'm there back in less than two minutes. So it's so easy to remedy that stuff.
00:09:15
Speaker
So you sort of relieve that mental stress of thinking about like okay, do I have everything in line? And what am I forgetting? You can, you can almost, you can almost like be a little more lazy on that side of things.
00:09:27
Speaker
But you also have to tolerate the reality that once you've been out there for a couple minutes, you've seen the entire course and that's not changing. So how do I kind of manage that world?
00:09:38
Speaker
And the way I use the the way I've kind of learned to maybe do it is, I got past the sort of like. Port where you're like kind of ignorance is bliss when you do the first couple where you just really don't know, like, okay, how bad could this get?
00:09:50
Speaker
And you sort of lean on that a little bit in the early stages to Oh, and now I know what I'm getting into and I have to learn how to manage these situations better. And some of that just comes down to how do you train the mind while you're training the body?
00:10:04
Speaker
So a characteristic of ultra marathon running that's not unique to the track is you're just not really going to have access to that full timeframe that your mind going to have to be on and focused in training. You're goingnna be doing it chunks.
00:10:18
Speaker
So I kind of stepped back and think, like well, where where do we practice that in real life? And where I kind of found works well for people is most people have a relatively busy life. So you're getting like kind of projects and you're getting like things you have to do that are multi-step. It's it's rare that you're just going to be like, everything is just kind of like one thing and then another thing and then another thing that gets presented to you one at a time.
00:10:43
Speaker
It's usually like, okay, if I want to get this done, these are all the components that go into it. And once you sort of have that scaffolding in place, then it becomes like, All right, how do I focus my mind where I put the end point in the back of my head? So i'm not getting distracted and overwhelmed by it mentally. Cause it's grand, but I'm able to like recognize, okay, I have to do this first before I can even worry about step two, step three, step four.
00:11:06
Speaker
So whether that be like a work project, that's going to take you two weeks to do that. You inevitably scaffold out and kind of have a framework of like the order of what you're going to do things. Just connecting that the same way can be really powerful and sort of training your brain to kind of intuitively do that on race day.
00:11:21
Speaker
Because the more I think you can kind of get your mind to just do that naturally versus having to waste a bunch of mental energy, like coming up with it while you're out there or finding motivations and things to do while you're out there, the better off you're going to be.
00:11:35
Speaker
And, and some of it just takes a little bit of experience to where you sort of recognize spots that kind of stand out where, you know, say like, typically I'm not going to probably do much more than like, say a 30 mile long run on a track leading into a race like this.
00:11:48
Speaker
So inevitably when I get beyond that point on race day, you're sort of at that spot where it's like, all right, I'm kind of heading into relative unknown territory where my only exposure points to this historically have been all the races.
00:12:00
Speaker
And I know that's going to be a challenging spot. So going into it, just like reminding myself, like this is where my brain is going to start planting those seeds of doubts. And i think knowledge is power with that. If you know, that's going to be there, you're less likely to kind of be susceptible to letting your mind get too far ahead of itself and start thinking about like, how am I ever going to do this for 70 more miles, which is a recipe for disaster.
00:12:24
Speaker
Um, other things are just like, like small strategies, like I'll go into a race with an idea of what I want kind of as like, if everything goes great, this is probably what time I'm going to target.
00:12:35
Speaker
And here's the minimal acceptable, acceptable time here where it's still worth being here and doing this race. And you sort of can build like a split target within that. And I find like, once you have that framework, you're sort of working within that, that kind of like, this is as slow as I can go. This is as fast as I should be going.
00:12:53
Speaker
And you want to kind of spot check that to make sure you're landing in there. But you also want to be mindful of not looking at the lap counter every time, because there's going to level of mental fatigue that comes from just like looking at the lap split every lap.
00:13:06
Speaker
And where I think this really kind of separates itself and makes it a bit of a uniqueness on these type of events is if I see like, one lap split fall out, like on the slow end, I'm sort of presented with this situation where, well, nothing changed really.
00:13:20
Speaker
Like the course didn't get more difficult. Um, so I must be doing something wrong or I need to make a change and pretty immediately too. So I think like the thing you want to really look forward to is your brain is going to spiral into that negative space very, very quickly.
00:13:39
Speaker
And, you know, a matter of a couple laps can, can kind of hit you the same way as the the fatigue that would lead to like a dropout i and a little bit of a longer stretch of time out when you're in the trails and you're maybe you don't have as much data available to you as to or as frequent of data available to you as to whether you're doing good, bad or otherwise. And really learning to kind of recenter with that. So like things that I've used in the past were like, all right, if I hit a spot like a rough patch like that, I need to really, really get good at just zooming in and focusing on like,
00:14:12
Speaker
Let's just get two more laps in range and then kind of punt the decision of whether I keep going for whatever target or stay in the race. Out a little bit and just kind of give myself a few more opportunities because it's just like the trails with this, where you're going to hit those low points.
00:14:27
Speaker
And it's really about like being patient, waiting for you to come out of that, because then you might feel infinitely better all of a sudden. And then all a sudden you're just like cruising and time passes fast and you can kind of get into a bit of a flow.
00:14:38
Speaker
So. really just kind of like learning how those present themselves on these more monotonous courses is, is, is, is the big mental piece to the puzzle there. And, um, you gotta be comfortable with failure too. Like I've had races in the past where like I've dropped out early and in the moment I'm like, I'm physically breaking down. It's just not my day to day. I'm going to call it and circle the wagons and try again. And then like with further reflection, I realized, Oh no, I just failed to kind of like clear that mental hurdle at that time and get to the part where it started feeling good again.
00:15:10
Speaker
And, you know, you do enough of them and you kind of get to a point where you sort of know where those typically pop up, how they present themselves. And you just get better at kind of fighting the the devil on your shoulder, I guess is the way to put it.
00:15:24
Speaker
Oh, that was amazing. I especially love the using tasks from your everyday because Very similarly to mountaineering sports, et cetera. I mean, you can't do a 15 hour training day to prepare for your 15 hour summit push.
00:15:43
Speaker
um For the most part, I mean, obviously you can do back to back, et cetera, but I just, I don't, well, I mean, this is probably what was playing in my head also when I was doing the loop course is the ease at which you can step away from a track.
00:16:02
Speaker
I mean, if you're out on a trail, it is incredibly sometimes hard to extract yourself or be extracted from a aid station from a very remote area. And also there like Western States gets run once a year, it's very hard to get into.
00:16:20
Speaker
um You know, you don't have like five Western States opportunities per year to to do that race. How does that in some ways ease of DNFing, which sounds absolutely horrible in many ways of just like, well, I'm, as you said, I'm having that rough patch. Oh, I just needed to push through it.
00:16:44
Speaker
um how do How do you think that factors into your decision-making? Because i mean, these are very hard efforts. And so if you're going after a world record or an American record, you only get so many shots at that. Like, how do you balance
00:16:59
Speaker
that ease of, of leaving versus, Hey, I'm going to stick it out and and get through it. Yeah, that's a great question. You know, what, what's worked well for me here is I'll go into a race, just taking a really good accounting of like what I did to get there.
00:17:14
Speaker
So like, that might be just like kind of reviewing some of the kind of the the stuff where it's like, when you get presented like with a ah stretch of training, like maybe closer to the race where you're out on the weekends, putting in multiple hours on back-to-back days.
00:17:29
Speaker
It's like, that's a, that's a sacrifice you're making. You're doing that versus something else. And you start piling those up and you're sort of more, you get more and more invested in the race itself then, because you start looking at it as less of a okay.
00:17:43
Speaker
Um, I'm gonna, you know, or, or I'm, I'm just sacrificing this one race. And it's more like I'm sacrificing the opportunity that I created for myself with all of those hours that I put into training.
00:17:57
Speaker
so I think the real powerful lever here is minimizing what's in front of you. So it doesn't feel overwhelming because when you start feeling overwhelmed physically and mentally, that's when you're more ripe to, to pull the, pull the, pull the cord and DNF.
00:18:12
Speaker
And i mean, I've had these, like, even in my best races, like when I ran 1119 for a hundred miles, there was a spot during that race where i remember thinking to myself, like, I don't think I have it today. I don't think the world record is in, in, in the cards here.
00:18:26
Speaker
I've already ran 1140. So is it like, you know, what do I do out here if it's not for, ah you know, chasing that record. And part of me was just, I think it was like things lined up well for me that day where it was like, that was actually technically supposed to be a training race for a bigger race later that year.
00:18:44
Speaker
So I sort of had some incentive to stay out there as like, okay, well, I could at least get a 12 hour long run in here. So I wasn't going to maybe pull the court quite as quickly as if it was like, well, I can, I can turn things around and jump it into the race in six weeks and try again.
00:18:57
Speaker
So since I sort of had a little bit of that, I caught myself and like, look back at that thing I just described where it's like, well, you did a ton of training to get here. And i was actually like, I was in a real unique spot too. It was at the Olympic training facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So it's this 443 meter indoor track where it's totally climate controlled.
00:19:17
Speaker
And at the time it wasn't a reoccurring event. So i was like, I may never get an environment this pristine. where literally everything is controlled, even the weather, even the light.
00:19:28
Speaker
And so i told myself, well, you know, that it seems like a big sacrifice to just call
Race Strategies and Career Balance
00:19:32
Speaker
it right now. So I gave myself like a couple of miles to kind of get back on track. And then I did. And it was like, it started to like really ravel in a positive direction from there.
00:19:42
Speaker
And, you know, so I was like one decision away from either dropping out or potentially just saying, okay, i'm just going to like concede the pace target and, probably still run a pretty respectful hundred mile time, but nowhere near what I ended up running.
00:19:56
Speaker
So yeah, I think it's just like making sure you go into the race with enough like motivation to make like dropping out, feel more uncomfortable than the uncomfort you're going to be presented with in any given moment.
00:20:11
Speaker
Um, but you know, it is an interesting kind of path because like those, those, that situation for me all came with like experiences and things like that, where yeah I had to learn to kind of look at training as a mental training aspect and actually do the work of like accounting for that. So it was easy to think of those things when those, those negatives crept in versus just not thinking about any of it and then going in and having to do that problem solving during the race itself versus having them kind of readily available to me.
00:20:41
Speaker
Oh, I think that makes so much sense. And Yeah, it's just, it's so so fascinating to talk to you being in, like we were saying beforehand that the world of ultra running, it's almost a misnomer to call all of it like the sea, mean, it's running, but it's there's such different challenges to each aspect of it.
00:21:04
Speaker
Um, from trail running to timed events, to more road ultras, fodder trail ultras, you know, there's just such a range of it. So it's really fascinating to hear your perspective and just the world that I've dipped my toes less into, but always,
00:21:21
Speaker
I don't know. It's always out there where I'm like, one day I'll try to run a really fast hundred. We'll see. um But when it comes to your training, what do you focus on? Heart rate, RPE, especially because pace does really matter for your events. Much more, i would say, yes, pace matters in the mountains, but it's like, it's so variable. There's a lot of factors that come into it. So how do you play with those pieces during your own training?
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I love this question because love data. So, uh, access to it is just a fun piece to the the process for me. ah but for, for like practical purposes, it's like, yeah, you need a strategy that is going to put in a position to be successful. So I rely real heavily on rate of perceived exertion for the vast majority majority of my training. Like if I'm going to do like a short interval session, it's time-based and add a specific intensity. So I look at intensity as fixed, whether I'm like just getting into speed work and maybe a little slower than average, or I'm at the end of speed work and I'm as fit as I've ever been in that side of things, those workouts are going to feel the same. I might just be quicker at it. So that makes pace a moving target and it makes distance a moving target.
00:22:35
Speaker
Time stays fixed. ah Intensity stays fixed. I deviate from that when it comes to race day specific training. So for like a hundred miler, that's going to be like the long run.
00:22:46
Speaker
I'm going to do that at a prescribed pace for the most part, at least near the end when I'm kind of really dialing in what I want to kind of hit from a pace standpoint during the race itself, because. Inevitably I have to be able produce that pace and, and tease out whether it's realistic or not. So there's those workouts where I might go out for like a three hour long run on a track and say like, okay, I'm gonna try to average like between six 30 and six 45 minute per mile pace.
00:23:10
Speaker
And I'm definitely trying to hit those splits. And then afterwards, I'm sort of reversing that viewpoint of now I'm looking at things like ah heart rate and intensity and these other factors as so like evidence as to whether, where I'm at within that pace framework or how aggressive is this? How conservative is this? Or, know, where does that fall on the risk factor of whether I apply those paces on race day versus the other way around where if I do say a workout that's based on intensity and time, I might look at that in post-workout reflection and check out things like heart rate.
00:23:43
Speaker
and see like, okay, is that moving along with pace at this intensity? Um, or, or with heart rate, I guess it would be more like a little bit more nuanced in there where it's like, if I start noticing ah specific heart rate is if I'm like recovering quicker in between intervals or something that, that might be a sign that I can tighten the recovery between sessions or between intervals or things like that.
00:24:04
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I think, I think perceived efforts just going to be the more reliable one when you're out there actually executing the workout, especially if you sort of been in running as long as I have, and you've really practiced, kind of learn what it feels like to do a short interval, what it feels like to do a long interval, ah what it feels like to run kind of what I would call like a base intensity or like the high end of zone two, and these different kind of like training intensity inputs.
00:24:27
Speaker
And then you're sort of relying on your your intuition of learning what those feel like over the years to really kind of then produce data that will suggest whether your your pace is is in a good spot for that given intensity before applying a different training.
00:24:42
Speaker
input or something like that.
00:24:45
Speaker
I'm so glad that you said RP, i because that's what we know. It's that's what my coach uses. That's what we primarily use at uphill because it truly, i mean, i have said this so many times, but what happens if your watch dies or,
00:25:02
Speaker
it gets thrown off a cliff by Sasquatchers or something, you know, along those lines. And you have not learned what those efforts feel like from your own body. Like, I just think it's so important. And I'm so glad that that is backed by someone with your experience.
00:25:19
Speaker
And yeah, I think RP, it it honestly is probably the most challenging in many ways to learn as a newer athlete, but it's so key for understanding how you are approaching your race, approaching training, approaching intervals, because we can get so set on the idea of like, well, five months ago I ran this pace, so I should be able to run this pace again. It's like, well, you, there's so much happened in those five months that can determine if that is possible for you right now or not.
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, you're, you're spot on with that. It's like RPE I think is the best, the best guide, but you do have to learn it. Like you have to learn what that feels like. And that takes time and that's going to take some measurements or some, some guides for people to do that. So what I like to do with like some of my coaching clients and then myself at times too, just to kind of like get a look at is I'll do like a field test that will be done at a certain intensity and, or it'll just be like, it'll be a timeframe. And then like,
00:26:22
Speaker
as long as you're able to like relatively evenly run it where you're not like getting up so fast where you kind of blow up within the workout or go so slow that you're just like screaming fast at the end and create like an imbalance there, you can sort of pull data for the short term targets too.
00:26:37
Speaker
So sometimes what I'll do is like, we'll do a field test early on. So someone can, so we can generate a pace that they're producing at that intensity. And then we might do some workouts based on that pace. That might be like, all right, we're going to do like, you're going to go to a track and run,
00:26:53
Speaker
Um, you know, repeats at this, at this, at this pace, uh, or it wouldn't have to be on track. You could do now that we've got these awesome. GPX watches and things like that, we can get that data anywhere.
00:27:03
Speaker
Um, and then use that as a way to kind of continue to learn what that feels like and how it kind of trends over the course of a specific type of workout. And, you know, you sort of have a little bit of a window of time where before we start applying the stressor, we're not going to see adaptations from the physiological level.
00:27:22
Speaker
Like right away, like you're not going to go out and do a short interval session and then automatically like, all right, the response has happened and now you're, you're automatically faster. It's going to take a little bit of time so we can spend like say two, three, four, maybe even five or six weeks kind of targeting a pace for something like a short interval session.
00:27:39
Speaker
And as long as the communication is there and we're kind of looking at the data and just saying, okay, well, is the intensity easing off? Is the heart rate data starting to produce lower numbers at these same paces?
00:27:51
Speaker
and then decide like, okay, is it time to shift that pace down now and kind of recalibrate that. So usually, you know, after like once one round or a few rounds of speed work, you people get pretty intuitive with what it feels like. And then we can kind of start really leaning on that as their primary guide and kind of remove that crutch of things like pace.
00:28:10
Speaker
I love that. Yeah. I i think so much about pace and heart rate, they're wonderful pieces. And I feel like they all support each other. But with newer athletes, I think of heart rate as kind of a training wheel where it's like, okay, we're going to put some constraints on these RPEs,
00:28:29
Speaker
these zones, et cetera, because you're learning what that means. And then, okay, I'll have them do a workout or two where I'm like, let's not look at our watch. Let's just focus on what RP and then let's go back and look at that data and be like, oh, wow, that was actually quite a bit higher, quite a bit lower. Like, okay, let's just kind of start learning these calibrations.
00:28:49
Speaker
um But I think it's so fun to have rather than just be really set in there's one way to do this. And that's the only way to have those three in conversation with each other. And I mean, you can add weight in the weight room, you know, et cetera. Like it doesn't just have to be paced. There's a, there's kind of these other variables, but I think it's so fun to be able to, to lean on different aspects depending on what you're trying to produce. Yeah, no doubt.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, it it is fun. I think I look at all these things as valuable tools that when you can combine them all, especially if they are all kind of pointing in the same direction, that's just additional confirmation that you're heading in the right direction. Because with a lot of this, it's like, it's not about absolute precision where like, oh, if you're one second per mile off, then the workout's trash. It's like, you know, there's a range in here that's going to get what we're looking for.
00:29:42
Speaker
And then like learning to kind of operate in that range as best as possible is is going to kind of put us in a but us in the right direction and really start to learn some of these things
00:29:54
Speaker
if you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan head on over to uphillathlete.com let's go and once you sign up you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans it's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals Check it out at UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. That's UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-P-S-G-O.
00:30:27
Speaker
I was lucky enough to be on your podcast a few weeks ago, and i wanted to ask you about this because it really stuck in my head that you mentioned that you did the San Diego 100, which is not the most mountainous 100-miler, but is...
00:30:44
Speaker
It's punchy. It's climbing, I think, depending on they've changed the course a couple of times, but above, I think, 15,000 feet of climbing um for 100 milers. So fair amount more than a track.
00:30:56
Speaker
and And you said that that you used San Diego 100 as um kind of one of the pieces that then led you to 11 hour track.
00:31:08
Speaker
Um, hundred miler, I'd love to hear about what went into that decision-making of doing San Diego 100, how you felt more of that mountainous training translated.
00:31:19
Speaker
um and just, yeah, a bit about that journey. Yeah. I really liked that as for me anyway, like I always think about this through the lens of like, it just respect for like pro marathon runners, because they've sort of like put themselves in a position a lot of times where it's like, there's not a lot you can change.
00:31:38
Speaker
And the courses are all going to be relatively the same. So you have to be so good at not just years, sometimes decade plus of like really kind of learning to stay excited or finding ways to stay excited as you were originally to be able to really go to that last bit you have on race day and get that result you're looking for. Because what I found with some of these like really flat, monotonous hundred milers is that does wear on you where I got to a point where think it was in 2018, I did desert solstice and I just like I had some, some issues kind of that were maybe little bit independent of just like not really wanting to be there as much as I had in the past, but there was definitely on like post reflection, a little bit element of that where it's like, I just didn't want it as badly.
00:32:21
Speaker
Um, as I had in the past at that race, I think some of that was just kind of the fatigue of like going into multiple training blocks with that exact same focus of, okay, going end up on a 400 meter track and I'm gonna see how fast I can run, or I'm going to target this pace.
00:32:33
Speaker
And that kind of wears on you in terms of like an enjoyment factor. a ability to really see progress in training because you sort of whittled down quite a bit, how much movement you're going to see in some of these training inputs. So it's a lot of rinse and repeat and then hoping for the best on race day.
00:32:49
Speaker
So I needed a mental break. I needed to just like, all right, I love running still. I love ultra marathon running still. I'm just like not as excited about hopping on a track and running a hundred miles right now.
00:32:59
Speaker
And I decided, okay, well, San Diego hundred was in June. And maybe I'll spend the first half of 2019 using that as the primary training target. So that allowed me to kind of switch up the train I was training on. I was living in Phoenix, Arizona the time. So I was just blessed with options where, you know, within an hour drive of Phoenix, you can get on just about anything and just kind of reset my mind in terms of like what an experience was like going out for a long run on the weekend, uh, where maybe I'm running up Mount Ord instead of around a track at, at central high school or something like that.
00:33:31
Speaker
And. And then there's also, I think the physical side of it too, where if you get into sort of a routine of just running flat all the time, it's, it's very like uniform is there's not a lot of variance in there. Whereas when you're training for these trail races, you get exposed to so many different angles and so much variety from the terrain too, that I think it just builds probably a healthier physical side of things.
00:33:53
Speaker
So doing the same, the the training for San Diego, like in the back of my mind, my, the only kind of like concern I had with that decision was It was like, okay, well, is this going to set me back in the sense that I'm going to kind of build myself into a different type of runner? And then it's going to take me a lot longer to kind of get back to the flats.
00:34:11
Speaker
So had to kind of trust that that wasn't going to be the case. And it was actually going to be something that maybe felt like a step back in the short term, but ultimately be a big step forward. And then doing that race, finishing it and having a good experience there when I recovered from it and then kind of circled back towards, okay, i'm going to target some flat road or track stuff the second half of this year.
00:34:32
Speaker
I felt like totally refreshed mentally where it was like, okay, I'm really excited now to go and do some real flat monotonous running. And I noticed pretty quickly there where its like, okay, my body just feels a little more durable. Like I don't feel like I'm getting as many like, uh, like just aches and pains or limiters in terms of imbalances and things like that, because I just spent the last half year running on steeper stuff, more technical stuff, varied terrain and things like that. So um probably like back ended some like,
00:35:01
Speaker
strength work with some of that stuff with, uh, with just the running training and things like that. So i sort of like realized after that it was like, all right, there's a physical component here. That's probably beneficial, similar to like,
00:35:12
Speaker
You know, when we look at developmental stages of of kids, like kids that have long careers or long interests in a specific sport in their adulthood, oftentimes they're doing a variety of different sports in their youth. So they're kind of creating this like structure that's just more tolerant, more durable.
00:35:27
Speaker
So in my mind after that, it was like, okay, there's like ah this mental relief or this mental change that creates excitement or almost like if I remove it, I'm going to miss it. And then I'm going to want it versus like feeling like it's always just going to be there and then lose some of that kind of that glow.
00:35:42
Speaker
And then, yeah, the physical side of it, too, just kind of creating a different experience for your body to be able to absorb and then kind of clear up maybe some of those things that get neglected when you're just running on flat canal paths and tracks.
00:35:55
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Yeah. i I mean, even i think that we talked about this. I by the time I get to fall, I'm like kind of excited to do something flatter because I've spent the summer in the mountains, which I love, but it is really fun to have that different stimulus to work on Oftentimes, not weaknesses, but like areas that we don't spend as much time on. So see like, hey, like there's just lower hanging fruit in many ways.
00:36:23
Speaker
If you're going after ah space that you're not, you don't frequent as much. Um, so I get, yeah, I totally agree with that appeal. I can feel my mind at points during the season being like, that sounds really fun.
00:36:37
Speaker
love to try that out just ah to change it up. But I love also the idea that I think mountain running in many ways is hidden strength training,
00:36:48
Speaker
Um, yeah. And not to say that you shouldn't strength train. I'm not saying that, but it really does do a good job of, um, that small muscle, um, and ligament strength that I think often gets neglected when we're running kind of one direction all the time.
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah. I find like if I'm out on the trails and doing more steep stuff, uh, like I, you're right. used to I still do strength training, but I can probably be a little bit more kind of cut and dry in the strength department where it's like, I go into the strength with the main thing being just like some heavier compound movements versus having all these different kinds of accessory movements that I'm likely gonna need to include if I'm running on the flats to kind of stave off some of the imbalances that are going to be more or less addressed while just running on that type of terrain.
00:37:37
Speaker
No, that makes a lot of sense. So speaking honestly, kind of along those terms, you've been in the sport since 2010, as we talked about.
00:37:49
Speaker
Did 2010, 2011, 2012, Zach, think about what 2025 Zach was doing? And did you plan at all to have longevity in the sport? Was that part of your thought process when you were starting out or ah piece of your training?
00:38:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a great question. i I thought about it through the lens of like, when I stepped away from teaching, i had signed a three-year contract with ultra footwear at the time. So i sort of had a little bit of time to play with in terms of like, is this a ah world I can explore and build something within that is sustainable from a career standpoint versus, you know, just a bad life decision in the, in the longterm.
00:38:35
Speaker
And I, I sort of had some, some abilities where it was like, okay, like, my My teaching certifications were pretty broad. I was i was regular ed and special ed certified. So like finding a job teaching wasn't a huge challenge with that, those those certifications. So I thought to myself at the time, like, well, if this goes terrible over the three years and it just doesn't prove to be something I want to build a career around, or I just can't cut it, then, you know, it's not, it's not going to be a huge, like career misstep to go back to teaching and and kind of restart that career or things like that.
00:39:10
Speaker
Um, but within that, my thought was like, well, what if it is successful? What if I do have a good experience in those three years? And it does prove to be something I really want to build a career around what kind of types of inputs are going to be meaningful for me outside of, uh, just the training and racing side of stuff. So one thing I learned as a teacher was I had summers very available where even when I was teaching full time, I'd have 12 weeks where I could basically train like a professional athlete where I didn't really have any obligations outside of getting up training and then resting, repeating and and doing that if I wanted to.
00:39:44
Speaker
And what I would always learn during those phases of the year was by the end of the summer, when I would get to like, like week eight, week nine, I started really craving some, some variety, something else, a different focus, a different challenge to just both kind of like keep my mind occupied.
00:40:00
Speaker
ah but also and think about this a lot too. It's like, how are you training your mind to be able to tolerate a lot when training can't technically produce the level of focus you need for a race that's going to take double digit hours and beyond.
00:40:16
Speaker
And so some of me thought like, okay, I've got these other curiosities, the other interests that I want to explore. How do I balance those with training so that I'm still able to perform, but I'm not feeling like there's like this, this like like weight on my shoulders of this is all I have is these race results.
00:40:32
Speaker
But at the same time, kind of also have something where I'm building some things that are a little more sustainable than, be put producing a race result. So then if I did get to a point in my career where it's like, Hey, I'm not putting up results that anyone's worth kind of building a brand around or supporting me with, I have the structures in place that, that, that, that make that possible, whether that be coaching or podcasting and things like that. So I don't know that I've ever really taken it more than like a few years at a time and just said, okay, this is still working. Let's keep building.
00:41:02
Speaker
Um, I've always asked myself about like, is this something I'm going to enjoy doing in five years, 10 years, 20 years? And, you know, as the sports grown, and as I've gotten more involved in just the running community as a whole, the health and fitness side kind of the economy, I guess, see you know, it's just been something that's continued to be like motivating and exciting to me. So I've kind just continued on. So um yeah, I'm at 39 now, so I could definitely start another career if I wanted to at this point or in the future too. And I haven't ruled out
00:41:34
Speaker
those sorts of things. But right now I think like the stuff that I've been doing since I kind of made that decision, I've still been really motivating, really exciting. And I've presented an enough like different things and different challenges to, to make them something that I really, really have enjoyed.
00:41:49
Speaker
ah love that. Yeah. And I also think, I mean, at the time that you started and I was a little bit after you, as we were discussing before this podcast, professionalization, I mean, that was a very, it was very hard to do. i mean, almost impossible to run and have that be your sole career. So I think in many ways, there was a ah forcing mechanism that you were always had to think about the future.
00:42:15
Speaker
um But i i think about that all the time is that i if a professional athlete is not considering what they're going to do, at the end of their career in the next three to five years, I think you can be in really big trouble.
00:42:27
Speaker
Um, so I think, I mean, lot of foresight there, but also what were you, or have you done physically to have longevity in your career, whether in running cross training, strength training, how has that evolved to keep you performing at the top of the sport?
00:42:48
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it it's definitely like a piece of the puzzle. And, you know, there are things where things change, right? So like I spent the first 10 years of my ultra running career really not having to think about injuries all that much. so I just didn't get them.
00:43:02
Speaker
I mean, I'd have some injuries, but they were never really all that consequential. I'd missed a couple of races in that first 10 years due to an injury I had to manage, but it was never something where it was like, oh, I just didn't have anything available to me this year because I just kept getting hurt.
00:43:16
Speaker
um you know As I've gotten older, I've had more challenges with that, where I've had a variety different injuries that have been made it more difficult to be consistent and things like that. So like exploring what are the like what are what are reasonable expectations that I should assume are going to occur as someone gets older?
00:43:33
Speaker
and is no longer in that phase of their life where, you know, when you're in your twenties, it's like, you can sort of just abuse yourself and then your body responds to it. Having to be like dialed in on strength work and making sure you're doing all the the different things. And it it may be not just running or like the way I described, like in my twenties, I liked strength work, so I would do it, but it was a lot less structured, a lot less organized where if I felt like, oh man, I feel really good to run again, maybe I'll skip that strength workout and just go for another run.
00:44:02
Speaker
Whereas now it's like, Even if I get that, that sort of thought process, I don't do it. I'm like, well, the strength work is on the calendar and it's it's there for a reason. I'm going to go do that. And i'm not going to like, you know, let, let my, my primary joy of running kind of get in the way of having some structures in place that are going to keep me healthy.
00:44:19
Speaker
Um, right now I'm exploring just like a a different input to where i'm I'm pretty curious about like the bike input. Uh, or, I mean, you could look at it through other angles too. Like, I think ah the sport has done a really good job of showing how this works, where a lot of the mountain runners will maybe spend winter doing a lot more skiing and things like that. And then, you know, they're kind of come back to the running side of their calendar year with a little bit, maybe similar experience that I had when I did San Diego, but just with a total different sport.
00:44:45
Speaker
And I think that sort of stuff really is what probably helps with longevity being able to get to a point where like, okay, maybe when I was younger, I could just rinse and repeat 150 mile training week for a few weeks leading into a race.
00:44:59
Speaker
Whereas maybe now I need to be a little more mindful about still keeping the key components of that big training volume week in place, but supplementing some of the stuff that's so maybe a little less important and removing some of that impact hopping on the bike instead or something like that.
00:45:13
Speaker
So ah yeah, being open to just like the different strategies and what's what's maybe going to be more beneficial versus less beneficial kind of help kind of keep keep things moving in the right direction.
00:45:24
Speaker
and And learning to trust your history too, where I think one of the benefits of longer ultras or, or ultras general for the most point, once you could probably get away from like the 50 K or some of these like things that are just like pretty close to the marathon is like you, you, you, you have this scenario where the, the, you're going to lose some speed as you get older, but the degree at which you lose it from a consequence standpoint, that's not going to be outweighed by just decades worth of aerobic development.
00:45:55
Speaker
and just knowing how to race a specific distance or duration really well. So you're not going to make a mistake that you have to try to overcome with just brute strength from youth, uh, are things that I think are, are, you just have to start trusting those a little bit more where like, you know, maybe, maybe just due to like the volume of running I've done historically, i don't have to pull that lever quite as hard specifically through running as I did when I was still developing some of those things. And I can afford to train a little bit differently and still make progress.
00:46:25
Speaker
No, that makes a lot of sense. i mean, I think just the wisdom that you gain of of understanding, hey, okay, this is how... I've had this scenario happen in my head or I've dropped my water bottle you know, any of the thousands of things that can go wrong in an ultra, just being able to rely on that memory bank of problem solving, um, I think does make up quite a bit to a certain degree for the speed. I mean, I still think of watching, uh, Nikki Spinks, who is an amazing, um, 50 something year old runner out of the UK.
00:46:59
Speaker
I always saw her at Tour de Jean and just her, skill at navigating aid stations and climbing and just, and she came in third that year, i think at 56 years old. and it's just her wisdom far exceeded any physical differences that she had compared to my 20 something year old self that just wasn't smart enough.
00:47:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, and it's interesting to think about too. and And I mean, there's definitely a point at which, you know, I'll get to a spot where it's like, I get, In a mindset of, okay, I probably just am not going to produce my fastest hundred mile anymore.
00:47:39
Speaker
And do go for further distance stuff where maybe that's still on the table? Or I guess in my case, since i really haven't done a lot of that, like, you know, anything would technically be a PR. So, uh, but, but you know, reaching full potential, like where are those lines and those, those, those times where maybe you decide, okay, that was something I would have targeted prior, but now I need to move on and adjust and could still be part of the sport and maybe still compete, but in a different a different distance or duration.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yeah. So that was kind of the last two pieces I wanted to touch on is what are the goals that you have for the
Future Goals and Sponsorship Changes
00:48:15
Speaker
future? What are you targeting?
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah. so on market chair Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm, I'm really spoiled with just great examples of like kind of timelines, I guess, where like the, you know, the, We've had world records broken in a hundred mile distance, the 24 hour duration and things like that by individuals in their forties. So, you know, I see it as like, all right, well, I shouldn't assume that I'm too old to still PR in the hundred mile. Uh, so if I'm interested in kind of chasing something like that, then, know, it's probably worth, worth exploring still, if I'm excited to it and it's going to be the, a meaningful build and kind of add value to what I'm trying to do.
00:48:56
Speaker
Um, but also, you know, I'm thinking about like, well, what if that becomes something where I either lose interest in chasing those, um, from just like, right, I've done this enough times now where I just don't really want to do this anymore, but I'm still interested in in running ultra marathons.
00:49:10
Speaker
Um, you know, these multi-day stuff and these longer races do look really exciting. And there's just so many frameworks to it now with like the last man standing stuff. Um, I've really gotten into kind of the history of the sport too, and been looking into things like the six day event and how popular that was what at one point.
00:49:26
Speaker
Um, over a hundred years ago at this point, actually. And, and and watching the sports start to kind of relearn that and get excited about it kind of gets me excited about it too. You know, you see someone like Meg Eckhart go run six hundred and run 603 miles in six days.
00:49:39
Speaker
Um, it's just like, wow, that's, that's really cool. And it feels like ah such a different experience than going on a track and running relatively fast for, you know, 12 hours or less.
00:49:51
Speaker
And, you know, part of me is excited about like, well, I wonder, you know, maybe I'm terrible at that. You know, maybe I'm great at it. You know, that kind of uncertainty of kind of reigniting that same thought process where, you know, when I got into ultra running, I ran up some successful 50 milers. And then it was like, maybe I'm good at a hundred miles. Maybe I'm not. So you still have that like newness side of things too.
00:50:12
Speaker
So I do think at some point I'll probably want to explore some of that stuff too, and just see what it's like if for nothing else, just to kind of get an idea, um of what that side of the sport actually feels like and experience the difference between, you know, running through multiple nights or trying to figure out when to sleep and when not to sleep and managing all the different characteristics of those type of the events too, or are definitely something that I think I'm going to want to do, um which they tend to have a little bit of a longer lifespan. I think just due to the, the even more reduction in race day speed needs and things like that.
00:50:47
Speaker
Yeah, I can tell you the sleep deprivation is not fun. at least I have. You've already explored that world, yeah. Yeah, I've yet to find the the fun piece about the sleep deprivation.
00:50:59
Speaker
um do you look at these explorations as well from kind of your coaching hat perspective as well of like, yeah, I'm curious about that.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it is something where like as a coach, there's like, you know, you see a lot of like, discussion around this too, where it's like, do you need to be really good at something to be a coach of it? And it's like, no, you don't need to, but we're also in a sport where we don't, we're not armed with nearly as much research as what you're going to see for like Olympic distance events or other sports that have just really, really been studied and invested in over the years.
00:51:39
Speaker
So I think there, there's just still this component of ultra running, especially when you get up to the multi-day stuff where it if you have an experience, whether it's good, bad, or otherwise, i think it's going to give you some tools as a coach that you're just not going to have. If you don't actually kind of go through that yourself, um, you can talk to tons of people, which I've done. You can go out and you can crew and pace and coach at these longer events and things like that, which I've done.
00:52:04
Speaker
But I do think like having done say something like Coca Donut or doing ah a six day event or a last man standing will teach me some things that mean, you have to be careful about it too, because like your experience isn't necessarily going to be someone else's experience. So you don't want to but put all the weight in that and just be like, Hey, this worked for me, therefore do it. Cause it's going work for you.
00:52:22
Speaker
But if you have say a coaching client, that's trying to optimize a multi-day event and they're telling you about an experience, there are going to be some crossovers there that are going to kind of happen to pretty much anyone who does one that are unavoidable that now you have a reference point for.
00:52:40
Speaker
So yeah, I think like, Yeah. Even if I got to, ah let's let's say I decided to do some multi-day stuff and find I'm just terrible at it, but you know I can still get the experience and and not be, be winning and kind of carry that over to fill some, some, some needs within the coaching front and the education side of things.
00:52:57
Speaker
Absolutely. i mean, I don't necessarily think you have to be an expert or the best at ah racing distance to coach it well, but I do think there is so much value in just experiencing. I mean, there is something very bizarre that happens to your brain on night three.
00:53:15
Speaker
Um, if you have to go and do a third night, it is just a strange experience and having done it myself and then also now watched people or paste and crude them coached, et cetera.
00:53:28
Speaker
it's helpful just to to understand like, yeah, your functioning capacity is very low and the coming in and out of I'm here, i'm in another world.
00:53:39
Speaker
i don't even know where I am. That's really hard to explain until you've experienced it. So yeah, that's, I totally agree. I do think, and also just the more people, and I'm not necessarily saying I'm not saying at all, everyone should go out and do multi-day events, et cetera. But the more people that have knowledge and experience, the more data we're able to bring into the future too. Cause I don't even think we've touched what we can actually do in those distances.
00:54:09
Speaker
think we have tremendous strides, but I still think there's a lot of room. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting stuff. I think like, Yeah, yeah you you look at it through a few different lenses in terms of like the doing side of it. And and and even like when you think of, you know, one thing I asked Meg Eckert about when she came on my podcast was like, you're out there like focused on this one goal, sort of like living in an alternate universe, essentially, from what your normal existence would be like for six days.
00:54:39
Speaker
And I think the longer you do that, because you get some element of that even in the shorter ultras, but six days is a healthy removal from the norm. like what is it like to kind of go back into normal life, especially when you have a performance like she did is like it really hard to kind of re re engage with what would be a little bit more typical.
00:54:59
Speaker
And how does that work from like the, I always think of like recovery after race, there's a physical recovery component where you need to let your body recharge from the efforts of the race, as well as the, all the rigors that went into the training leading into it.
00:55:10
Speaker
But there's also kind of the mind side, like how do you kind of get used to being excited again about another task or another goal? And helping someone navigate that with an experience that is specific to it could be very helpful to as a coach where, you know, yeah the communication piece is a huge valuable part of the coaching experience. So like being able to say like, oh yeah, you know, when I did that too, I struggled to kind of reconnect for a few days and we just need to be patient here. You don't need force things right away and can more or less avoid mistakes as much as kind of have solutions.
00:55:42
Speaker
Absolutely. i mean, i still Nikki Kimball actually coached me for a bit and she ran hurt. the first year i ran hurt, it was my first hundred. And I still remember the advice that she gave me after the race, she's like, you might just cry randomly. You're going to have a lot of emotions. You're not going to understand like why you feel this way or why there's just water pouring out of your eyes. And I just, I still remember the just how helpful it was to be like, I'm not insane that I'm having these, these experiences after a race. And yeah, it's, it's,
00:56:20
Speaker
I think so relieving when someone says you're not crazy. This is just kind of a situation and that happens or even getting acne or like, you know, just any number of odd things that happen that maybe aren't the best for us, but at least ah there's some blueprint of others experiences.
00:56:39
Speaker
Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, I think that's powerful. Absolutely. ah So last question, and then we'll wrap is this year, you stepped away from kind of a more traditional main shoe sponsorship um that I actually didn't realize you've been with Ultra for how many years?
00:57:00
Speaker
I've been with them for 11 years. wow, that's, I mean, that's amazing, but what this year led you to decide that you wanted to branch out?
00:57:11
Speaker
I, you're doing more shoe testing and just giving more shoe reviews and kind of an overall, um, look at that side of the sport. What led to that decision?
00:57:23
Speaker
Yeah. You know, it's, it's been interesting because I think with, uh, with, with sponsorships, there's, there's like a, a need for them to a degree, right. Where like, especially if someone is starting the process of trying to build something that's sustainable, where if you want to really be able to like step away from other demands that essentially pay the bills and spend time training and racing, having that support to be able to do that is, is a huge advantage. And at certain points in my career were a necessity to be able to justify it.
00:57:57
Speaker
Um, I got to a point where like between like the podcasting and coaching and things like that, i wasn't really like financially dependent upon a ah pro athlete contract to the same degree as I was. So it was like, I didn't have to like stress about that by saying like, okay, I need to find a shoe sponsor. If I want to continue this journey, I can continue this journey ah without that.
00:58:19
Speaker
um And then, you know, you start, things start adding up to where like the shoe market has, this is one of the more interesting evolutions in running throughout my career is Like when I started running, it was like my mindset was I want to build a training setup where I can put on like the lightest, smallest, most responsive pair of shoes as possible because most ultra runners are probably not going to do that. They're probably going to try to minimize the impact by wearing a heavier, more cushioned shoe on race day because it is hard. It is a lot of impact.
00:58:53
Speaker
But I felt well, if I can build myself up to be able tolerate a four ounce low profile shoe on race day, more similar to like what someone might wear for like 10 K or a marathon, then that might be a relative performance advantage.
00:59:04
Speaker
Um, whereas now the whole world has shifted where essentially we have regulations put on our shoes where you can't stack them up after a certain point because the performance just kind of keeps going as long as a relative amount of stability is sustained.
00:59:20
Speaker
So like the fastest shoes on the market are now 40 millimeter. Uh, max cushion shoes because that foam is so premium where you're going to gain, you know upwards of maybe 4% efficiency by wearing those versus what would traditionally have been more of a racing, racing, flat or marathon type shoe.
00:59:38
Speaker
So what that I think does is it, it, it sort of made the shoe world a little bit more like the best way I think I can describe this like the bike world where, you know, if you're doing a specific type of bike race, you're going to get a very specific type of bike and that might change.
00:59:53
Speaker
Uh, depending on what events you're doing with it and the different like aspects of that event. and to some degree you're going to do that with shoes too, but like even before super shoes, but it was a little bit more, I think it was a little bit more expansive where like more or less, I could probably find a shoe that wasn't going to cost me performance with almost any brand where, so find a brand you really like one that maybe has more options for you within it. And if you can partner with them, then it's a win-win.
01:00:21
Speaker
versus now, I think it's like, as this, and this is all still evolving, right? Like we just had Puma release a new shoe before the Boston marathon that the data we have currently shows that it might be more efficient than the most efficient shoe the market prior to that.
01:00:36
Speaker
you know, before that, maybe it was Nike, maybe it was Adidas. So we sort of have this like moving target of what shoe is actually going to be the fastest for your shoe, for your, for your race now versus in six months, 12 months, 18 months and things like that.
01:00:48
Speaker
And i mean, If we keep regulations on that, I think that probably eventually normalizes where like pretty much you can pick from multiple brands and really maybe not get that much of a difference.
01:00:59
Speaker
I just don't think that's the case right now. So I wanted some flexibility in actually like not just finding the shoe that is going to produce the best efficiency on average, but find a few shoes that do that.
01:01:12
Speaker
And then go in and test and find out which ones are actually going do that for you. Because there is some variance from one person to the next where Someone might find they have a better efficiency gain in like the zoom X foams versus a Puma's deviate nitro elite stuff or any of these other super premium phones that have out there.
01:01:30
Speaker
so I kind of wanted that flexibility to be able to like go into a training block and think, okay, I'm going to actually go into a lab and test a handful of options that feel good on my foot and find which one is actually going to yield the best performance. And that just didn't lend itself to exclusivity.
01:01:45
Speaker
So then it's like, well, how do you kind of navigate that world? And for me in the short term, I think that's just like going unsponsored for a while. So I can kind of explore that world and figure out some of those kind of characteristics that work best for me. And um I think there's still options within that world though, too. Like, I think there's, mean, this is where we were kind of chatting a little bit of this before the podcast too, is like a lot of the influencers, they will do brand partnerships and things like that. They're not exclusive though.
01:02:15
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And they're, they're short duration to where it's like, they'll be like, um, they'll say, let's say they're doing the Chicago marathon. Maybe they sign up four month partnership with one of the brands is like, okay, I'm going to use this shoe on at the Chicago marathon.
01:02:29
Speaker
So all the content I create in route to that is going to be featuring this shoe. Let's see if there's some, some collaborations here or some support that you can give me here in order to you know pick that shoe versus something else.
01:02:40
Speaker
So I think there's options with with that too, where like, if I decide like, okay, I'm gonna do desert solstice or I'm gonna tunnel Hill or Javelina or something like that down the road, where when I get to like, okay, which shoe is actually gonna work best for me at this, having connections to all the brands and be able to like pitch like different like content creation ideas and things like that around that.
01:02:58
Speaker
I think that's a path forward. um I can understand why an athlete wouldn't want to do that if that's their kind of like their primary focus and they're relying on that because it's stressful to have to like go from like,
01:03:11
Speaker
a one, two, three year structure to, okay, now I'm signing these three month partnerships and having to do that. So there's definitely pros and cons to either direction. Um, but kind of like I was saying before, I was sort of in a position where, um, I didn't need to rely on exclusivity and and the the, sponsorship that comes along with that. So it kind of allowed me some flexibility to explore the world a little bit more.
01:03:32
Speaker
um I'm also really curious about this sort of stuff too. So. having that opportunity, because like I said, I've been wearing ultra exclusively for 11 years. So like the running world has evolved and changed and done all sorts of things while I was wearing just ultra.
01:03:47
Speaker
And I think after 11 years, I kind of got to a point where it was like, all right, I'm curious enough to want to figure this out. Want to try some of this different stuff, explore this stuff for a while and see how it goes and just figure out where the, where, where that leads. And so for now it's a, it's about just trying as many options as possible.
01:04:05
Speaker
reviewing shoes and things like that and kind of seeing where it all leads. Oh, that's, I love that. Cause I mean, it has as exciting as the sport has become in the professionalization, et cetera, the shoe part of it too, is just insane of how many different directions it's going.
01:04:25
Speaker
I have kind of a hunch that, I mean, I had this for a while that carbon plated trail shoes are actually not the ideal trail. I don't think carbon plates are the way that we should go. I think there's something else. I don't know what it is, but I think there that something exists. And so, yeah, it's exciting that you're able to explore that a lot more and just optimize.
01:04:46
Speaker
Yeah. I think you're, I think you're right. I think the, I think we've probably over assumed the value of some of the, some of the new shoe tech on the trails and what that's going to do. um it it gets interesting because,
01:04:59
Speaker
as you get into the more controlled environments, I think there, there's a lot more reason to believe you're going to probably be faster in the premium phones than what, whatever you would get your hands on like pre 2016 and things like that.
01:05:12
Speaker
Um, which kind of puts me in a bit of more of a unique spot maybe because I'm, I'm generally not focusing on the very terrain stuff as like a primary race end point. But, um, but yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, there's still questions I think about what benefits they give you like in the long-term duration, cause you sort of have this, you have this sort of trade-off where you lose some stability to gain performance because there's a weight component and then an energy return component to the super shoe model. So the best super shoe on the market for you, if it creates enough instability that all a sudden, like you're
01:05:52
Speaker
just done at 70 miles. It doesn't matter that you were running way more efficiently for those first 70 miles. You just kind of like painted yourself into a ah corner. That's not going to produce an end result. But, um, but yeah, I think it, it's interesting. I'm also curious to where I ran my fastest hundred mile in a non super shoe. So like I, part of me thinks like, okay, well, what if I do receive X percent efficiency on that with that exact same performance?
01:06:20
Speaker
how much, how much faster could I be with that sort of, with that sort of a, of an input. and And I've been fortunate where I know a couple of like kind of the lead researchers on the, on the super shoe world. And um one of them Jeff Burns, I was talking to him and i was like, if you had to estimate, like assuming what we know, like what would you guess it'd be like the, the variance between the control shoe and a super shoe for say like a flat hundred miler.
01:06:43
Speaker
And he was like, you know, it's going to be a range and it's going to be dependent from person to person, but with enough people, it's probably going to be in book between 10 and 30 minutes. So, I mean, that's a huge chunk of time just to be ignored. Yeah.
01:06:54
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah. So, I mean, I think that that I'm curious about that too, where it's like the world, the the running world has sort of moved into a spot where it's not a conversation anymore, really of like, should we allow these or not? I don't think there's really, we're not putting that toothpaste back in the tube at this point. So it's about what regulations do we put in place? So doesn't get totally out of hand, but also continue to evolve and develop products that are going to ah you know, make the sport exciting and give people options to stuff like that. But I mean, there's all sorts of injury type of scenarios too with ah with products like that. So there's a lot of learning to go into it and self-exploration.
01:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's the piece. I mean, i yeah, this could be a whole other podcast about nerding out on on shoes. But um yeah, just the injury piece, also the form degradation aspect all of those parts as you're heading into the ladder, halves of races.
01:07:56
Speaker
Cause I mean, they're designed for like marathon and less is, is always like the hunch that I thought. And then we're kind of like shoving them into the ultra world and seeing if they stick.
01:08:08
Speaker
Um, so yeah, I, are you planning a hundred mile effort this year or Yeah. Yeah. I actually had a race in June. I was going to do, it was actually at the Pettit center where I ran my fastest time, but I picked up some Achilles issues, uh, month and a half ago. So I've been doing a lot more biking and a lot less running the last few weeks. So I think I'm going to end up pulling it out of that and focusing on doing something a little bit later in the year.
01:08:35
Speaker
But I think I'll do, I'll do a hundred miler. I'm sort of trying to decide between making like a primary target between like tunnel Hill or Javelina as kind of two kind of interesting ones that i I always enjoy going to either of those events. So um I'd really like to kind of explore what I could do and in either of those with a good build up from here on.
01:08:55
Speaker
Awesome. Well, I wish you the best of luck and I'm excited to see how just, I mean, just literally changing the shoes, it will be an exciting component to see, which is wild to say, but it it's true. i mean, that will lead to a different outcome of some extent.
01:09:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a, it's a funny world with that sort of thing. And it just adds one more variable to consider, I guess, when we're kind of going through the, the, the rigors of training and figuring out what's gonna, what's gonna yield your best result.
01:09:29
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Well, Zach, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's been so much fun to chat with you. Where can people find you, online, learn more about you, your podcast?
01:09:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. ah The best spot to head is just ZachBitter.com. That's where I have like the podcast link, coaching stuff link, social media channels and stuff like that. I'm probably most active on Instagram, which is just at ZachBitter. Yeah, that's the spot.
01:09:58
Speaker
Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Zach. And thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast. If you can rate, review, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that helps us help more athletes.
01:10:08
Speaker
It's not just one, but a community. We are Uphill Athlete.