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Six Feet Under Pressure: A Legacy's Burden in the Funeral Industry Finale
7 Plays10 months ago
In this third and final part with Caleb Wilde on The Glam Reaper Podcast, Jennifer Muldowney will discuss the evolving landscape of the funeral industry and nurturing diversity and adapting to different cultures.
They delve into the necessity of adapting funeral homes to cater to individual preferences, moving away from rigid scripts and traditions. Caleb reflects on the impact of globalization and changing religious beliefs on traditional funeral services.
The conversation touches on the Catholic Church's influence on funeral proceedings and the growing desire for more personalized and inclusive services.
Caleb shares his personal experiences with misogyny in the funeral industry, highlighting the ongoing gender inequality and the challenges women face in leadership positions. They discuss the toxicity within the industry, including outdated views on gender and racial profiling in hiring practices.
Tune in to understand how funeral homes can better meet the diverse needs of today's families while addressing the significant issues within the industry!
Key Topics:
-Meeting families' unique needs in funeral services
-Navigating the effects of globalization and changing faith on funerals
-Addressing gender inequality and support for women in the funeral industry
-Combating racial profiling and promoting fair hiring in funeral homes
-Prioritizing mental health support for funeral professionals
Quotes From The Episode:
I'm attempting to provide people who are burnt out or who have come to a place where they've lost themselves in this business and give them somebody to talk to and somebody who can walk with them.
- Caleb Wilde
For me, I don't need to go to mass to prove I'm Catholic. I don't need to go to mass to have some guy I don't know preach to me.
- Jennifer Muldowney
Timestamp:
[00:00] Podcast Intro
[00:53] Jennifer emphasized that funeral homes need to adapt to the varying needs of families by offering personalized options and meeting families where they are.
[02:05] Jennifer and Caleb explained that the decline in traditional funeral services is largely due to the changing role of the church in people's lives.
[05:40] Jennifer elaborated on how the church's attempt to remove eulogies from funerals to focus more on the mass and ritual might lead to a purer but smaller congregation.
[08:31] Jennifer and Caleb highlighted the similarities between the lack of adaptation in both traditional religion and the death care industry in the United States.
[12:32] Caleb shared his early awareness of the misogyny in the funeral industry and recounted numerous stories of harassment he had heard over the years.
[17:38] Jennifer noted that while there is a growing number of women entering the funeral industry, many are still in school and won't enter the workforce or attain leadership positions for years.
[20:14] Jennifer expressed his desire to start a conversation about mental health in the funeral industry.
[25:10] Outro
Connect with Caleb Wilde:
Facebook - /ConfessionsofaFuneralDirector
Website - book.calebwilde.com
Instagram - @confessions_of_a_funeral_dir
Twitter - @CalebWilde
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper on socials at:
Facebook Page - Memorials
https://www.facebook.com/MuldowneyMemorials/
Instagram - @muldowneymemorials
Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
Listen to The Glam Reaper Podcast on Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-glam-reaper-podcast/id1572382989?i=1000525524145
YouTube - https:/
Recommended
Transcript
Mental Health Neglect in Funeral Services
00:00:00
Speaker
We're still serving people who are going through the worst day of our lives, so we constantly diminish our own mental health.
00:00:07
Speaker
We constantly diminish the importance of maintaining that so that we can stay and so that we can be the best that we can be to the families that we're serving.
Customization in Funeral Homes
00:00:30
Speaker
You know, so there's no one size fits all.
00:00:33
Speaker
And so I think that's what we're going to see is that unless funeral homes adapt to, there's no one size fits all.
00:00:40
Speaker
So we have to be open and we have to sit there and meet families where they're at, as opposed to where we want them to be at.
00:00:47
Speaker
You know, because, of course, is there an ideal scenario of every day I come to work?
00:00:52
Speaker
And so every funeral is going to be OK.
00:00:54
Speaker
So we're going to the local Father Joe in such and such a church and we're going to sell them the Sycamore casket and and the service is going to be 30 minutes long.
00:01:03
Speaker
And we're going to have, you know, such and such doing a song.
00:01:07
Speaker
And and that's yes, of course.
00:01:09
Speaker
Wouldn't that be nice if every day, you know, you showed up at work and there was this sort of monotony.
00:01:14
Speaker
So it just became a job that you just do.
00:01:17
Speaker
Right.
00:01:17
Speaker
It was like an industrial factory.
00:01:20
Speaker
Exactly.
00:01:21
Speaker
You know, but that's not life anymore.
00:01:23
Speaker
It's not because we're all just so different and we're able to express it now and we want different things.
00:01:29
Speaker
And it's it's not too.
00:01:31
Speaker
And I feel like the people who do go on the defense in the comments.
00:01:35
Speaker
And whether it's on your post or on some other, you know, innovators post or whatever it might be.
00:01:39
Speaker
It's kind of like I bring it back to I was raised Catholic in Ireland.
00:01:43
Speaker
Right.
00:01:43
Speaker
Most Irish people work.
00:01:45
Speaker
I am now a celebrant and I train celebrants and teach celebrants.
00:01:48
Speaker
My grandmother would be rolling in her grave for hours.
00:01:52
Speaker
I also feel like my grandmother was the type of person who I could explain.
00:01:55
Speaker
It's not that I am allergic to being Catholic or I'm not.
00:01:59
Speaker
I'm just providing options for other people.
00:02:01
Speaker
Like I'm just allowing people to bring a little bit of Catholic prayer in while also giving people the space to speak about the deceased, which is not provided in the churches anymore.
00:02:11
Speaker
You know, so again, it's just bringing it back down to that.
00:02:15
Speaker
Everyone just wants something different.
00:02:18
Speaker
Sorry, not everybody wants something different.
00:02:20
Speaker
People want options nowadays.
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:22
Speaker
So anyway, I get off my TED box for a second.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah.
Globalization's Impact on Church Role
00:02:27
Speaker
No, I think the church, if I can interject, I think the church was a core part of community back before globalization and back before we were so transient where we'd move from place to place and we would never stay at one place too long.
00:02:47
Speaker
That wasn't the case.
00:02:48
Speaker
You'd stay in a community for generations and the church was a key part of people's social lives and their lives and
00:02:55
Speaker
They helped insulate the funeral industry to be what it is because the churches had a prescribed set of rituals and this is what you did and this is how you followed.
00:03:05
Speaker
And now with globalization, we realize that perhaps these religious traditions that we were raised with aren't as certain as we once thought they were.
00:03:15
Speaker
They aren't as rock solid and steadfast and the absolute truth that we once thought they were because, hey, this guy over here,
00:03:25
Speaker
who has a different religion than me, but is speaking something amazing, well, maybe he's right too.
00:03:32
Speaker
And so maybe the church isn't this castle of truth and righteousness and love.
00:03:41
Speaker
Maybe there's a bunch of little homes all over the world where truth, righteousness, and love exists.
00:03:46
Speaker
And so as we've had this disintegration or this pluralization of how we can
00:03:51
Speaker
have our spirituality and religion.
00:03:54
Speaker
I think that's one of the main reasons why the traditional funeral service is not going to survive.
Adapting Funeral Practices for Survival
00:04:01
Speaker
The traditional funeral is not going to survive because the church was an insulator.
00:04:06
Speaker
The church enabled this tradition and people are not as involved in local churches as they once were because they realize that, hey, my community doesn't have to be where I live.
00:04:19
Speaker
My community can be online.
00:04:21
Speaker
And hey, also, maybe we're not as right as we thought we were when we were growing up.
00:04:26
Speaker
And yeah, so I commend you for what you're doing, giving people space to reflect who they are instead of the traditions that
Personalized Funeral Preferences
00:04:36
Speaker
they were given.
00:04:37
Speaker
Yeah, not.
00:04:38
Speaker
And, you know, a bit similar to yourself, Caleb.
00:04:42
Speaker
For me, it came from my own personal journey, you know, like going for me.
00:04:47
Speaker
And I'm always very clear for me, not for everybody, but for me, I don't need to go to mass to prove I'm Catholic.
00:04:55
Speaker
I don't need to go to mass to have some guy, I don't know, preach at me, you know, set of words on a book that don't resonate with me anymore, that don't make sense to me.
00:05:06
Speaker
And so I'll often go to St.
00:05:08
Speaker
Pathak's Cathedral here and pray and sort of light candles and talk to the...
00:05:13
Speaker
different saints that I like to talk to and, you know, talk to my grandparents and people who've passed.
00:05:18
Speaker
And that's just how I deal with it and how I meditate and seek solace and stuff like that.
00:05:23
Speaker
I mean, I always joke that my grandmother is like sitting on my shoulder.
00:05:27
Speaker
I make all these the right life decisions and stuff.
00:05:30
Speaker
But yeah, it came from my own experience and which makes me laugh.
00:05:34
Speaker
Although you're kind of a celebrity over here in the funeral space, but I'm like a celebrity.
00:05:39
Speaker
These words, the fact that these words come out of my mouth,
00:05:42
Speaker
hilarious to me.
00:05:43
Speaker
It always makes me cringe a little bit.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
So I'm a bit of a celebrity in the funeral space back home in Ireland, as in my nickname is the Glam Reaper.
00:05:54
Speaker
There's nobody else in Ireland who sort of talks about this the way I do.
00:05:59
Speaker
But so I often get sort of asked about questions.
00:06:02
Speaker
So the church were trying to get rid of the eulogy in the funeral.
00:06:07
Speaker
The priests were sort of saying we need this to be more about the mass and the ritual and the writings and all this sort of stuff.
00:06:13
Speaker
And they asked me my opinion.
00:06:14
Speaker
And I said, listen, will...
00:06:16
Speaker
this bring a more pure congregation.
00:06:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:06:20
Speaker
The priest is going to have, you know, in the congregation sitting in front of him, he's probably going to have 20 to 30 people who are pure, here for the mass and that's it.
00:06:31
Speaker
And religiously, right?
00:06:33
Speaker
Religion, religiously.
00:06:34
Speaker
But is this going to deter even more of people like me?
00:06:39
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:06:40
Speaker
Because already, and this is in the US as well as it's Ireland, already when it comes to the census, people are only selecting Catholic because, yes, I am Catholic.
00:06:49
Speaker
But honestly, I probably should be ticking the non-box that I don't believe in anything because I'm not going to church.
00:06:57
Speaker
I'm Catholic and I identify as that, but I'm not going to church.
00:07:01
Speaker
And so there's more people.
00:07:03
Speaker
I would say 90 percent of the people of my generation consider themselves Catholic, quote unquote, but they don't go to church or they don't enjoy church when they go and they go for weddings, funerals, Christmas, maybe confession once every decade.
00:07:19
Speaker
Right.
00:07:19
Speaker
They cleanse themselves.
00:07:20
Speaker
You know, that's.
00:07:22
Speaker
That's what's the norm, again, quote unquote, in Ireland right now.
00:07:26
Speaker
And so I said, look, if he wants a pure congregation when he's having a funeral, then go for it.
00:07:32
Speaker
You get to do you.
00:07:33
Speaker
You do you, babes.
00:07:35
Speaker
The brief.
00:07:36
Speaker
You do you and see what happens.
00:07:38
Speaker
But you're just going to push away more people like me who.
00:07:41
Speaker
are coming to the dark side coming to the celebrant side where like even when I designed my own funeral when I started in this 15 years ago when two friends of mine died and I sat down to do my own funeral I was like well what would I want I don't want it in a church don't want a priest to do it but I do want prayers said I very much want prayers said but I also want all these other gorgeous aspects because Jennifer Muldowney is not just a Catholic she's a million different other facets she's
00:08:09
Speaker
you know, dancing queen.
00:08:12
Speaker
She likes a martini.
00:08:13
Speaker
She's the glam reaper, you know.
Industry Challenges Parallel to Church
00:08:15
Speaker
She's all these different facets.
00:08:16
Speaker
So why, when it comes to our funeral, would we just do one part of her life?
00:08:22
Speaker
There's a lot of similarities between death care in the United States and traditional religion.
00:08:30
Speaker
And just like the churches are not adapting very well, they're not adapting to globalization and neither is death care in the United States.
00:08:42
Speaker
So what's going to happen when you either adapt or you die?
00:08:46
Speaker
And I think
00:08:47
Speaker
There's many people, and this might be one of the more profound things that I say, and I think I've already said it, but there's many people who would rather be comfortable in what they know and not adapt and die than adapting, go through the discomfort of learning something new and thrive.
00:09:08
Speaker
Some people would rather die than adapt.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I do think that comes back to something you said earlier, which is narcissism.
00:09:16
Speaker
It comes back to ego, narcissism and stubbornness.
00:09:19
Speaker
Honestly, people will stick their heels in just to be proven.
00:09:22
Speaker
No, I'm I wasn't wrong.
00:09:24
Speaker
Right.
00:09:25
Speaker
Until the day they die actively.
00:09:27
Speaker
So can I ask on your journey and obviously stepping away from the family business was a massive turning point for you.
Family Relations and Business Separation
00:09:36
Speaker
How has that and feel free to not answer if you don't want to.
00:09:39
Speaker
But how has that left you your familial relations?
00:09:43
Speaker
Like how are you with your parents?
00:09:45
Speaker
Because obviously that I can imagine in my family if I was born into a funeral home and I told my dad sayonara that would not go down very well.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:55
Speaker
Initially, it was hard, but I have a better relationship with my parents right now than I have had in 20 years.
00:10:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:04
Speaker
They see it now.
00:10:06
Speaker
They understand now.
00:10:08
Speaker
And they didn't have a space to understand before.
00:10:12
Speaker
So watching me go through the things that I've gone through and working with them and them seeing it firsthand, they get it.
00:10:21
Speaker
And I think I've
00:10:23
Speaker
help educate them enough to see the toxicity there as well.
00:10:29
Speaker
And my dad's ready to be done.
00:10:32
Speaker
So tell me, there was a post that you wrote.
Gender Harassment in Funeral Industry
00:10:36
Speaker
It was some time ago and I can't remember exactly when, but it really, I mean, it was shared by quite a number of my colleagues where you talked about sort of harassment in the funeral space.
00:10:49
Speaker
So just we're going to touch on toxicity for a second where you touched on female harassment, I guess.
00:10:55
Speaker
And because it is such a male dominated space, but we're seeing so many more females coming into it.
00:11:02
Speaker
Was this from experience in your own funeral home or was this sort of people writing to you or telling you their stories?
00:11:09
Speaker
Because I can imagine probably a lot of people did sort of just start to open up with you when they met you, maybe or however.
00:11:16
Speaker
So just maybe can you touch a little bit on that or?
00:11:19
Speaker
It was both.
00:11:21
Speaker
I knew from an early age that the funeral industry was misogynistic.
00:11:28
Speaker
But hearing stories throughout the years, just horrible, horrible stories.
00:11:34
Speaker
So the equality in current society is nowhere near where it should be.
00:11:43
Speaker
It was drastically worse.
00:11:46
Speaker
I was reading, what was it?
00:11:48
Speaker
In the United States, a woman was not allowed to open a bank account until the 1980s.
00:11:54
Speaker
Just these things that now we're like, what the...
00:11:58
Speaker
What the fuck?
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:00
Speaker
Not allowed to get a credit card.
00:12:02
Speaker
And it was only, what, how many years ago that women weren't allowed to vote.
00:12:07
Speaker
So, again, because the leadership in this industry is in their 50s and 60s and 70s, these outpours.
00:12:18
Speaker
massively outdated views on females in the workplace on gender as a whole.
00:12:24
Speaker
I mean, let's, let's even broaden it more gender, but it's grossly horrific.
00:12:33
Speaker
And it's something that's even made worse because it's accepted.
00:12:39
Speaker
And that's the problem.
00:12:42
Speaker
Harassment happens all over the place, but it is seen as inappropriate and wrong and illegal, depending on the type and degree.
00:12:55
Speaker
Whereas in this industry, it's often not.
00:12:59
Speaker
And it's so difficult to speak out about it because it is a boys club.
00:13:05
Speaker
And if you leave one funeral home because you're being harassed,
00:13:09
Speaker
The possibility of being seen by all the other funeral homes because they
Misogyny and Leadership in Industry
00:13:15
Speaker
all talk.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:16
Speaker
And not being able to get a job because they all talk and it's the boys club.
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah, it is something that's insidious in this industry.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, and it's very, it's interesting.
00:13:31
Speaker
I never even actually thought about it the way you've just said it.
00:13:35
Speaker
But like, yeah, if you're at a workplace, so if you're at a funeral home and you're harassed, and if it's a family-owned funeral home, usually management, it can be management that's harassing.
00:13:48
Speaker
And so reporting to managers is not an option.
00:13:49
Speaker
It usually is.
00:13:50
Speaker
It's not an option.
00:13:52
Speaker
So reporting it is not an option.
00:13:53
Speaker
There's no HR department.
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:56
Speaker
And so but then say I'd say you're somebody who's really passionate about the funeral space and you're brilliant in it.
00:14:02
Speaker
So you're like, OK, I can't report it.
00:14:03
Speaker
So let me move.
00:14:04
Speaker
But then if you're if it's a community family funeral home, often there's one for miles.
00:14:11
Speaker
So you're either having to move yourself miles out of your your own district.
00:14:16
Speaker
Or maybe even moving states, because as you said, there's sort of they all talk.
00:14:22
Speaker
And then when it comes to corporate, it's it's no easier because it's just sort of, you know, you've got somebody who's so far removed who doesn't know the situation and is just and you've got management maybe who's doing something and you want but they're doing the sales, they're getting the sales in.
00:14:37
Speaker
So you want to keep them happy.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, so much of the harassment comes from management.
00:14:42
Speaker
There's no 20, 30-year-olds who are running a very successful funeral business.
00:14:50
Speaker
Most of them are 50, 60, 70 and have an, you know, you could say old school mentality, but that diminishes it.
00:14:59
Speaker
They are chauvinists and narcissists and deeply misogynistic to the point where they are entirely unaware of how misogynistic they are.
00:15:14
Speaker
So it is difficult.
00:15:17
Speaker
And women, female-led and female-run funeral homes, I think, stand the better chance of adapting than do the male run.
00:15:29
Speaker
Because while women are, females are coming into the funeral business, many of them are still not in leadership positions.
00:15:39
Speaker
Right.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:41
Speaker
And or they're still in school, you know, we're seeing a rise in the numbers in school, but they're not going to sort of be in the workforce for another maybe decade, you know, where they have the experience and the licensure to to actually step into leadership.
00:15:55
Speaker
So it's going to be another while.
00:15:56
Speaker
Yeah.
Diversity Challenges in Funeral Industry
00:15:57
Speaker
It's very, very interesting.
00:15:59
Speaker
While so I'm in New York nine years and Ireland is still very much when it comes to the funeral space is still very much in the past, very male dominated.
00:16:10
Speaker
And, you know, your your local funeral director back in Ireland was sort of the local barman.
00:16:16
Speaker
He maybe have been the post office, maybe even the grocer as well.
00:16:19
Speaker
So, you know, historically in the villages, he used to be all those things.
00:16:24
Speaker
Now, typically, they are just the funeral home now.
00:16:27
Speaker
They're just the funeral tractor.
00:16:29
Speaker
His population, obviously, in Ireland has grown and modernized and is so incredibly different to what most Irish Americans view Ireland as being.
00:16:38
Speaker
And there is still there.
00:16:40
Speaker
Sorry, there is a lot more females coming into the space there as well.
00:16:44
Speaker
But I definitely do see over here.
00:16:47
Speaker
There's a lot more racial profiling, gender profiling that goes on when it comes to hiring.
Future Focus: Mental Health in Funeral Industry
00:16:55
Speaker
certain areas can be quite racist, homophobic.
00:16:59
Speaker
And then, yeah, like you can have two, a male and a female funeral director, both with equal experience.
00:17:04
Speaker
And for some reason, the family are just drawn to, well, the man is the boss.
00:17:09
Speaker
He knows what he's talking about more than the female.
00:17:11
Speaker
Very interesting.
00:17:13
Speaker
When actually we all look at historically, it was women who were the
00:17:18
Speaker
the actual body caretakers, the people who technically they were the funeral directors.
00:17:24
Speaker
It was just when it was commercialized, then it sort of grew into.
00:17:29
Speaker
But we don't have a million hours to keep talking about all of this.
00:17:32
Speaker
So we do have to trim down.
00:17:34
Speaker
So Caleb, the so you've got all the book.
00:17:37
Speaker
You've got the archaic blog that you're going to bring back to life.
00:17:41
Speaker
What is OK?
00:17:42
Speaker
We talked about the future of the funeral space.
00:17:44
Speaker
What is the future for Caleb?
00:17:46
Speaker
So right now you're
00:17:47
Speaker
You're really dipping into the whole mental health in the profession.
00:17:50
Speaker
How's that working out for you?
00:17:52
Speaker
What's what's the plan?
00:17:53
Speaker
What's the what's the ask?
00:17:55
Speaker
Maybe, you know, do you want to be on stages?
00:17:57
Speaker
Do you want to do more interviews?
00:17:59
Speaker
Do you want to?
00:17:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:00
Speaker
What's the future?
00:18:01
Speaker
Yeah, I want to start the conversation and I feel as though I'm in a position where I can.
00:18:08
Speaker
So I'm addressing it on multiple levels and I'm still, I mean, I just launched the business a couple months ago or launched this thing that I'm doing, which I'm calling Life Coaching for Death Care.
Life Coaching for Funeral Professionals
00:18:25
Speaker
So I'm attempting to provide
00:18:28
Speaker
people who are burnt out or who have come to a place where they've lost themselves in this business and giving them somebody to talk to and somebody who can walk with them.
00:18:44
Speaker
through it.
00:18:45
Speaker
I am not a therapist and that's not what I'm doing.
00:18:48
Speaker
I'm coaching.
00:18:49
Speaker
I'm helping people get through these incredibly difficult situations.
00:18:53
Speaker
You know, coaching is kind of like the death doula for psychology where I'm not...
00:19:02
Speaker
attempting to therapize people.
00:19:06
Speaker
I am attempting to give people a space where they know that they're understood and helping them walk through the loss of themselves, the burnout, the compassion fatigue, the secondary trauma, the depression, anxiety, all of these things, the harassment.
00:19:23
Speaker
One of the people that I'm coaching right now, just to give an example, I'm physically beat.
00:19:28
Speaker
I'm
00:19:31
Speaker
and by the manager.
00:19:34
Speaker
And so there's so many different parts of this industry that are still held in secret.
00:19:42
Speaker
And the mental health aspect is what I'm focusing on right now and providing space.
00:19:48
Speaker
And I know there's other people who are doing it.
00:19:50
Speaker
I know that you just had, and I'm not going to be able to pronounce her last name, Kim, I believe.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yes, we need resources.
00:19:57
Speaker
We need people who have gone through it and know what it's like to help walk through it with other people, because it's incredibly difficult and the struggles are swept under the rug, just like everything else.
00:20:12
Speaker
Yeah, because no matter what we're dealing with today, we're still serving people who are going through the worst day of our lives.
00:20:20
Speaker
So we constantly diminish our own mental health.
00:20:23
Speaker
We constantly diminish the importance of maintaining that so that we can stay and so that we can be the best that we can be to the families that we're serving.
00:20:32
Speaker
So.
00:20:33
Speaker
So, yeah, I'm helping to start this conversation.
00:20:36
Speaker
Well, congratulations.
00:20:39
Speaker
And we hope it goes really, really well.
00:20:42
Speaker
We're big advocates of taking care of your mental health here on the Clown Reaver.
00:20:46
Speaker
And yeah, the guys, the funeral peer support guys are great.
00:20:49
Speaker
And just anybody who it is, it's a tough business.
00:20:53
Speaker
And I don't think it's as simple as just you should be able to just get on with it because exactly as you said, you're meeting people.
00:21:02
Speaker
If you're meeting people where they're at, they're at the worst day of their lives.
00:21:05
Speaker
And
00:21:06
Speaker
So, of course, you having sort of a bit of anxiety or whatever it might be, isn't going to you're going to push that away in order to serve this
Conclusion: Mental Health Importance
00:21:14
Speaker
family.
00:21:14
Speaker
So it's how do we make sure and keep a balance that we can show up for our families in the best way we we can.
00:21:21
Speaker
I mean, I've spoken a bit about sort of self-care and mental health myself and very much not a therapist, not a coach or not on anything.
00:21:29
Speaker
But I think it's just because I think
00:21:31
Speaker
love to talk and like to talk to me.
00:21:34
Speaker
So we end up talking.
00:21:35
Speaker
And I think that's what it all comes down to is just starting these conversations.
00:21:39
Speaker
And that's what's wonderful about all these death talk influencers and stuff is they're starting conversations that maybe around a dinner table, a kid will ask his mom, well, mom, do you want to be composted?
00:21:50
Speaker
And all of a sudden the conversation starts and I'm here for all of them.
00:21:53
Speaker
So, well, Caleb, thank you so much for joining us.
00:21:56
Speaker
We are going to cut it off because we are
00:21:58
Speaker
We're on way over time.
00:22:00
Speaker
But it was such a pleasure to talk to you.
00:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for joining us.
00:22:05
Speaker
And I'm sure we'll have you on again and wish you the best of luck with everything.
00:22:09
Speaker
I appreciate what you're doing.
00:22:10
Speaker
You are the present and the future.
00:22:12
Speaker
So keep going.
00:22:13
Speaker
Thanks, Caleb.