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"Mariela & Newcastle" ACN Pod 89
53 Plays3 years ago
Jon & Tom review the Newcastle score draw and interview Norwich City's Head Of Emerging Talent, Mariela. We cover data, analytics, football manager and she tells us why we should all ignore stats like total shots and possession.
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Transcript
Match Analysis: Norwich vs. Newcastle
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Norwich podcast. We turn our Never Say Never attitude to a nuanced debate about Newcastle. John and I are going to have a quick chat. It's Wednesday lunchtime just after the Newcastle game the night before. We've got a really nice special guest to bring you, which we'll do in a few minutes. But firstly, John, let's talk about the game up north last night where
00:00:43
Speaker
you can either see it as two points dropped, you can either see it as a fantastic comeback, you can either see it as our start was so bad we couldn't afford to not, you know, go two games in a row without a win, or you can either see it as unbeaten completely in November. Everyone seems to be a bit confused as to whether or not they should be elated or heartbroken. Yeah, I think all of those things are fair and, you know, as always with the Norrie City debate, it's a little bit more nuanced than the black and white that some people want to make it.
Dean Smith's Impact on Team Morale
00:01:13
Speaker
Look,
00:01:14
Speaker
I think for me, that was probably the most stilted performance of the three games under Dean Smith's tenure thus far. And it was disappointing because when you have a player that's red carded after nine minutes, there is an expectancy that actually a team should be able to go on and win the game. And all right, you can make some arguments that perhaps the officiating wasn't as good as perhaps it could be. But at the same time,
00:01:42
Speaker
Norwich were masters of their own destiny, and they just didn't do enough. I think that's the thing that disappoints me. But as you've just gone on to say, that's kind of coupled with we're four unbeaten. We're still three clear of Newcastle. We're kind of in touch with fourth and fifth bottom at the moment, and that's pending results tonight.
00:02:05
Speaker
it's not looking too bad. And if you'd have said to us, say like six or eight games ago that it was going to look this positive, I think I'd have probably laughed at you because, you know, there was no sign of this coming. There was no sign of Norwich, you know, going for unbeaten and picking up a couple of wins. And for the whole
00:02:23
Speaker
moves music to have changed and for people to feel like we've got a chance again and that's you know ultimately that's what it does feel like at the moment is we've got a sniff and it isn't going to be this maybe I'll speak to you soon but it isn't going to be this this whole kind of slow really depressing walk towards relegation actually
00:02:44
Speaker
know Dean Smith's side look like they are rejuvenated, they look like they can put in performances that they can compete with with their Premier League counterparts and hopefully we can pick up the points. Maybe not necessarily to do enough to escape relegation but certainly to be in the fight for that and I think that's all we could have asked for after the start that we'd had.
Norwich's Relegation Battle
00:03:03
Speaker
What certainly seems to be clear is that we are going to scrap our way to maybe a bottom five, bottom six finish but
00:03:12
Speaker
a bottom two finish looked absolutely certain only a few weeks ago. And, you know, not to not to be that, you know, we're either the fan police or the nuance police, but to put on my my nuance, and you want to be careful how you say that, put on my nuance hat. I think it's it's testament to the mood music. And as you mentioned, they're being so different that we're now outraged to not having a way when
00:03:38
Speaker
I mean, you know, we would, we would have taken a draw even against 10 men, um, away from home against anyone we were playing a few weeks ago, because it would be another point and it would, you know, it would have a certain point of our season. It would have, you know, been half of our points again, you know, prior to that Brentford win. So I'm really, um, I'm really heartened by the fact that we didn't look
00:04:02
Speaker
beaten at any point last night. Now, yes, it's frustrating that as Newcastle fan Alan Shearer said during the first half, Newcastle were the better team in the first half and they only had
00:04:18
Speaker
They only had 10 men for most of it. They probably were. And it was really disappointing how slowly we moved the ball. That's obvious. Really slowly, really badly. We went back to, it looked like Farka 1.0, that horseshoe shape of running down the left and then coming back around the back and then going down the right and then coming back around there. No challenging balls through. And whenever we did, I mean, the number of
00:04:43
Speaker
misplaced lobs into the box last night. It was just unfathomable that so many passers and different individuals, it wasn't the same player every time, just collectively were unable to wait to their balls to actually tease the goalkeeper who looked dodgy to me all night at Dubravka.
Critique of Dubravka and Team Dynamics
00:05:00
Speaker
And obviously he was involved in the goal in that it was a parry that led to Janusz's lovely little layup for Pukki's incredible volley.
00:05:12
Speaker
But he looked, I think he looked mistake prime whenever the ball was near him and we needed to be a lot more, we needed to test him a lot more than we did. So whilst that was really disappointing, we never looked beaten.
00:05:26
Speaker
We kept plugging away and the attitude I think that the players seem to have shown that they seem to have almost hit the reset button from a characteristic point of view. They seem to have really benefited from shrugging off the, we haven't won in ages. We're destined to go down. Faka can't do it at this level. This is the same coaching set up that took us down last time with a whimper. The players seem to have benefited from kind of shrugging off that kind of misery blanket.
00:05:56
Speaker
Um, and I just want to give a shout out really to, um, Smith's, uh, trying to change it positively again. You know, players will start to have their heads. I saw a couple of shouts at halftime along the lines of, oh, that'll help his confidence. No end, you know, being pulled up a half time. This is Jolys, who I thought was other than one, he created our best chance in the first half and almost, almost in isolation. He did nothing else other than that. Um, what he,
00:06:26
Speaker
The more Smith makes changes at half-time when things aren't going well, then he clearly needs to try and affect the game, or their stasis, or whatever, blunt 0-0 like Walt. The more he does that half-time, the less it will affect the player's confidence as being hooked to half-time, because it becomes something that regularly happens at Norwich, effectively. If you haven't had one of your better games at half-time,
00:06:48
Speaker
I'm going to change shape and I'm going to bring someone else on to try and influence the game in a different way. I'm going to try and drive more through the middle by bringing PLM on instead of trying to go for the wings, which isn't currently working. I mean, it's weird how we were better at moving the ball wide when we took a wide player off, but we were. And you knew this, likewise, I thought gave us real energy. He was obviously told to come on and it doesn't matter if we lose 2-0, let's make sure we don't, you know, let's try and make sure we at least get to 1-1. That seemed to be the
00:07:13
Speaker
the management directive. And yeah, I'm feeling far more cup half full than any of those more doom and gloom stuff I set up out the top in the intro, because we're unbeaten in the Premier League in a month. I mean, that's just, that's very un-nourished. It's incredibly un-nourished. And that, yes, okay, there's a couple of opportunities there where it could have been three instead of one, but
00:07:39
Speaker
It's a bit like my terrible golf. Yes, it's disappointing to miss a par part. Yes, it's disappointing to miss a birdie part. But if I keep putting myself in the position to miss those parts, then the scores are going to come down.
Tactical Changes and Consistency Challenges
00:07:50
Speaker
And Norwich to be, I'm delighted to be in a position where I can even bemoan the fact that we've dropped two points, because that means we've got one. And yes, we need to average better than a point a game. But if the disappointing outcome tends to be a point, that means that the threes are going to come. And if on an off night,
00:08:09
Speaker
We still managed to go up against a fantastic crowd. I thought the Jordies were superb last night. The noise was fantastic. They lifted their players. They really played their part last night. It's a great home support. And that is a tough place to break down what is effectively a training exercise. Seven, eight players with
00:08:26
Speaker
Let's have it right. Some great talent. Joe Linton, I personally think he was, probably over 90 minutes, one of the better players on the pitch. Work rate was superb, bought fouls. And, you know, he got the max amount. He was way better than anyone we've got in our team. That is not an easy job to kind of go and just walk past and win three, four, when you're not in the mode of winning all the time anyway, which we still aren't. So I'm very much a cut path forward. I'll be interested in, John, what you think about
00:08:56
Speaker
going into the coming games, whether you think Smith feels he needs to keep mixing it up first, 11-wise, because he hasn't had back-to-back consistent halves yet. You know, he hasn't had a first half and a second half in one game that had been consistent, and he hasn't had a brilliant second half followed by a brilliant first
Squad Depth and Player Performance
00:09:15
Speaker
half yet. Well, I think Wolves across the 90 minutes was a really, really good performance, and I think for both halves, you know, we bested them.
00:09:25
Speaker
And I think for me, that's probably where the issue laid for me for last night, because everything positive on Saturday went through Mila Rashidza. He was the man who would make things happen. He was the one who was an outlet. He was the one who could stretch the play. He was our creative force. And that was the issue for me. As soon as I saw the lineup and I saw Rashidza was injured, and obviously this is prior to the sending off,
00:09:53
Speaker
my confidence kind of drained away as to whether we would get a result because he just feels like he's rejuvenated under Smith and he is so integral to us going forward and creating chances and just doing things at pace and you talk about, you know, kind of a slow and maybe ponderous way forward. It did feel like that at times last night. It's interesting you say about Les Malou coming on and you knew this, you know, kind of having an impact.
00:10:23
Speaker
you knew this definitely had an impact. He offered more of a wide option when the central midfielders had kind of congested it a bit more. But I was really surprised by the halftime substitution because as much as you could argue that Jollis wasn't having the impact that we'd have wanted him to have, at the same time, could have just been some tactical tweaks that might have sorted that out and might have made the difference. There's clearly a talented player there
00:10:52
Speaker
I'm always of the old school that, you know, when a team goes down to 10 men, you should be looking to stretch the play. You should be looking to pull players out of position and make your numerical advantage count. And it didn't feel like Norwich did that enough. I think last night, I think we were, we didn't move the ball quickly enough. We had a lot of players in central areas. Now, maybe that was with a view to making sure that Max Ahrens, Max Ahrens, sorry, and you knew this, or Williams as it was, you know, kind of just after halftime, were able to get forward.
00:11:21
Speaker
But I don't know, just for me, I think it was the first time where I looked at Smith's substitutes and I thought, yeah, I disagree with you tonight. And that's not a dig. He obviously knows a lot more about football than I do. But everything that he'd done up to that point has been absolutely spot on. I mean, Kieran Dowell is probably a case in point. It just felt, especially at 1-0,
00:11:46
Speaker
but we weren't necessarily going to be able to unpick the lock and Newcastle were retreating further into their shell, making themselves kind of obdurate and more difficult to beat because they were holding on to something. Good word. Thank you. It just felt like we needed someone to be able to create something out of nothing until you knew just kind of lob that ball in the box.
00:12:10
Speaker
what were we going to create it didn't feel like anything oh i think i don't know i don't know we were just i think we were growing into the box no no no i'm sorry it was it was a lot of bits in the box it was a beautiful side footed weighted ball up for pookie to score what is going to be one of one of the goals of the season have you seen that
00:12:29
Speaker
Have you seen that stat that he's scored, I think it's NCFC numbers, there's always a hero of ours. 47% of our Premier League goals have been seen with Brookie the last couple of times. And that's the madness. But I think ahead of that, so yeah, you're right. Okay, that's a fair challenge. That's a fair challenge that you knew this ball was decent. But we were lobbing it into the box ahead of that. And Max Ahrens, if he's going to be used as an outlet on the right,
00:12:53
Speaker
isn't a very good crosser of the ball. And that's something that we certainly need to work on. And he needs to work on to, to make us more effective, because we do look like we want to cross the ball a lot more than we did, we did under Daniel Farker. You know, and that's something that, that we're going to need to adapt to as a team, because the one thing for me that that seems to
00:13:14
Speaker
Not necessarily worry me because I think he's going to be patchy and he's a young player and perhaps we need to harness his skills in the best way possible is Josh Sargent was completely anonymous last night. And so when you've got Toddy with, we're told is a COVID related absence, whatever that means, if he's been pinged or whatever, I don't know, maybe that suggests that he hasn't been double vaccinated. I'm not really sure, but whatever that situation is,
00:13:42
Speaker
He's unable to play as it stands. When Rashid's is injured, when we haven't got the creative talents that are able to do it in a more considered and skillful way, you would hope that Sargent might be able to be the hard work and the battering ram that we needed. And he just wasn't last night, he was nowhere near it. He looked a little bit lost in the situation.
00:14:09
Speaker
I just hope that we're able to develop him because he's starting ahead of Adam Ida and all right, Eda came on and he didn't do an awful lot. But he's starting ahead of Adam Ida. But honestly, that coverage last night was fucking atrocious. But just just to get back to Mr. Ida, let me point about him, sir, is that I think
00:14:32
Speaker
As much as Norwich may feel that he can add value to the squad right now and he can be like a second or a third line option for striker, are we stifling his development? Because the lads, what, 19, 20 years old, I think at the moment,
00:14:49
Speaker
You know, he's not getting any kind of regular football. He feels like he needs regular football. He feels like a player that needs to be in his rhythm. He feels like a player that needs to be scoring goals and touching the ball and, you know, and kind of just building up that confidence. And he can't do that in Norwich at the moment, because he's never going to start if Timmy Pookie's fit. He's never, you know, he's always going to be, you know, kind of third choice as it stands. And that isn't an orange way. This is, you know, kind of a red hot youth talent, which, you know, starts games for the Republic of Ireland.
00:15:20
Speaker
It feels to me like we need to make a decision on him and possibly if we're looking to do any business in January, it might be a more experienced foil or replacement for Pookie and get Ida out on loan because I'm really confident that he could be
00:15:37
Speaker
a tremendous asset for us moving forward. But I just don't think it's this season in the Premier League. I agree. And I think when he had his opportunity, he was offside anyway. But when he had his opportunity, the way he snatched that volley is someone who has come on, come into the game with 18, 19 minutes left and is trying to make an impact. And, you know, he's exclusively used from the bench. And I completely agree that I mean, I was surprised. I assumed the championship loan was exactly what was going to happen. I mean, he might have eight to 10 goals in the championship by now.
00:16:07
Speaker
Um, and we might all be saying, well, hang on. We need to get either back in January. Maybe he would have been a fantastic person to recall in January and become that foil to team. You know, full of confidence, full of, and the right touch and being calm in front of goal, because he's been scoring at slightly lower, quite a lot lower level at the championship. Um, and now that option is taken away from us. Sergeant hasn't worked yet.
00:16:30
Speaker
However, I do feel with his age as well because I don't know, he sort of flies him to the radar that he's one of these kids, he has a kid anyway, he's still got so much development to go, he's far from his peak. He was shit last night and he knows he didn't do as much as he should have done. The effort is superb, the fitness is superb. I just think that, I think he can be coached into a good Premier League player.
00:16:56
Speaker
But if but whether or not he can be coached into a good premium play to contribute as regularly as we need him to you know before the end of the season is another matter and therefore I'm with you I think.
00:17:12
Speaker
Whilst we've already been, we've already had the kind of, um, the messaging from the propagandists at the club that, um, you know, we're already being fed that it might be a quiet, you know, it might be quiet in the Premier League, generally. All right, Stuart, I know that you're trying to say that we shouldn't have our expectations up, but I think we need another attacking option. Um, because you know, Rashid's is great, but look how bad we are when we don't have him. Um, Jollis is, is a raw talent and needs a lot more development.
00:17:38
Speaker
makes Farka look right, not to have played him, so far what he has done when he's played. And Sergeant likewise is a raw talent who I think could become fantastic. So you either play either from the start, which I wouldn't be surprised actually after last night if Todd can't go,
00:17:56
Speaker
And just to pick up on that, because that was at the start of your point, what was on the broadcast last night was that Simon Thomas said he was terrific. And I couldn't watch any of the coverage after the game because I couldn't bear to listen to Newcastle just being talked about exclusively in terms like we.
00:18:13
Speaker
and start listening to local radio following some of those pundits.
Covid-19 Protocols and Team Decisions
00:18:18
Speaker
But what Simon Thomas said was that he was awaiting a PCR negative test and he was awaiting the result or something, which would suggest that it's not a vaccination issue. He should be available for Saturday. Yes, possibly. And I don't know the Premier League protocols, but if I wanted to go into my workplace and I've been double vaccinated,
00:18:43
Speaker
I don't have to wait for a negative PCR if I've been a close contact to someone. So yeah, look, I'm not going to profess today Premier League protocols. It just feels like there is a circus around Todd and there has been all season. And so it's very easy to remain highly skeptical about anything when he's nowhere near an 18 and didn't come on on Saturday when perhaps, you know, you'd have expected him to. Well, anyway, point is,
00:19:11
Speaker
he doesn't seem, he might not be available. And the point we're making here is Edar. And I think Edar could well see himself start in that, that kind of sergeant style role. Like a wide forward, you mean? Yeah. And I've got, I've got no issue actually, I think he's probably looked more
00:19:27
Speaker
Well, he's here now. Whilst I would have him on loan, he isn't on loan, he's here. I don't want him on loan because I don't think he's got a potential to be a number nine in the Premier League. I think he could well be the long-term heir to replace Spooki. He's shown enough goal scoring now and ability and calmness in front of goal and he's good in the air.
00:19:47
Speaker
However, to get to his ceiling, he needs time in front of goals so that he's not snatching at 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there, like you said. The only reason I want him on loan is because I think he can't help us. Like I say, how wonderful would it be if we had sent him out until January, got him some confidence and brought him in almost like in inverted commas a new signing in January to help up front.
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's down to whether or not Craig Shaky Wakey and Dean, but obviously you may need Shakespeare, can coach Sargent to be just that bit calmer. Can we pick up on that? That actually, I've never ever come across a time when I think when a manager and his assistant manager has come as a pair, if you know what I mean, it's always been like Daniel Farkas, Norwich City, or you know, kind of Paul Lambert's, you know, Norwich City or Ipswich Town or whoever you might
00:20:38
Speaker
I think he seems to be...
00:20:40
Speaker
so intrinsically linked to Smith. And it's almost like, oh, look, it's Smith and Shaky. It's the lads kind of thing. And I'm like, where's this come from? How have people picked up on this? Am I missing something? Yeah. Well, yeah, you're missing Shakespeare's CV. I mean, Shakespeare's CV is superb as a coach. That's fine. But loads of assistant managers have got brilliant CVs. It's just almost that. Yeah, but they don't tend to end up at Norwich. They don't tend to end up at Norwich. They don't tend to end up at a team that looked so rudderless and, OK, OK.
00:21:08
Speaker
the evening of the sacking they just won a game. I think that's what is exciting is that he has genuinely achieved things in the level that we are trying to compete at the moment and it's just so reassuring to have that known quantity that you know other clubs cover and other clubs have got value from and it's nice to have someone who is already well thought of before they have to earn it with Norwich and achieve it with Norwich.
00:21:38
Speaker
And, and yeah, it's down to, it's down to them. Look, if they can coach a couple of these guys up, they've said that, you know, they've made the noise, the noises around, oh, we're pleasantly surprised by the, the quality in the squad. You know, I might not be able to buy anyone in January. We definitely need to either coach up Jolys or the Sergeant to be regular contributors.
00:21:57
Speaker
Or we need another another player to get there. I think that they could turn out to be this this could look in two or three years time. This could look like webbers best window because receipts had looks like a star and and Sergeant and solace have clear
00:22:13
Speaker
ceilings of really high quality players. And if we stay up, then Norman is ours. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this could be an, and if Gilmore, I mean, according to most pundits, Gilmore's the best player to ever pull on a Norwich shirt. Although again, I thought he was incredibly pedestrian last night. I think the whole midfield were a bit pedestrian. I think Gilmore wasn't at it. McLean wasn't at it.
00:22:35
Speaker
Roop, I know a lot, I've seen a few people calling him out. I thought Roop did a few good things. I thought he did a few daft things, but so did every midfielder. So did every midfielder, yeah. They did. He made the wrong decision a few times, but like I say, some of the miss hit lobs over relatively simple balls to just clip in behind the fullback to give us a chance to get him behind and pull it back.
00:23:00
Speaker
I mean, there must have been seven or eight times in the first half. And you just think, why are you all overheating passes? You think you get one or two of them every game? Of course you do. Because it is hard to do that on the move when you're being closed out at speed in the Premier League. But for you all to have such an off mic. But again, that's what brings me back to just to sort of round this up. My half
00:23:21
Speaker
full approach at the moment is yes of course we're going to be in a relegation battle for most of the season that looked pretty certain but we are with third from bottom we're not bottom we're third from bottom and yes there's other games to play we might go back to second from bottom again but the point is we're not actually at the bottom
00:23:37
Speaker
We are within a win or a win and some goal difference of multiple teams. We look like we no longer lie down and we're beaten unless something magic happens and we manage to get a stroke or luck. We look like we genuinely are in games. We are conceding fewer goals and fewer chances. Okay, they only had 10, but the guys before us, the two teams before us were certainly at full strength.
00:24:01
Speaker
So I'm personally feeling very positive about the fact that we've gone back to being allowed to be disappointed to only get a point, rather than over the moon that, thank God, we didn't get beat 3-4-0. So I think that's a positive thing. We don't feel the drift anymore, and that is a big thing, confidence-wise, going into a game, because it makes each individual game far less of a massive... I didn't personally think it was anywhere near as big a game for us last night as it was for Newcastle.
00:24:26
Speaker
For us, that was don't lose. For them, it was must win. As I think I put in, I said to a few of my mates last night, it would be an absolute narrative nightmare for Norwich to have lost that game. It's disappointing to not beat him in, but the way some of the decisions went, and I've seen our friend Mick has sort of defended the refereeing or rather just 70 degrees with one person saying it was a bad performance, I thought that the refereeing was clown car again last night.
00:24:54
Speaker
until it's completely done by robots, it's going to be, you just have to accept that. And if you get lucky, it goes in your favour.
Norwich's Premier League Survival Chances?
00:25:00
Speaker
But I mean, really, I'm feeling really positive about the fact that we're going to give this a good go. We're going to keep picking up points. And if they can make the tweaks from a coaching point, if you maybe add one more safe, regular contributor in the top half of the picks.
00:25:19
Speaker
Or they can do that by fixing whatever's going on with camp. Or they can do, like I say, it doesn't have to be a new signing. They've got two or three players, or they can get doweled into form and he kicks on and stays in this squad. Do you see what I mean? That there's so many ways that you can see this team finishing fifth or sixth from bottom and being safe with a couple of games to spare, which I couldn't see for the life of me on the morning of the Brentford game.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think you've been very optimistic to say that we might be anywhere near it with two or three games to spare, or we might be anywhere near clear of it with two or three games to spare. I still think this is going to be an absolute dogfight. And if we can take it to the wire, then that's still an incredible achievement from Dean Smith.
00:25:59
Speaker
and his boy is shaky. I might as well buy into that hype now. But what I would say, and this comes from the heart rather than with any kind of analysis, is actually just looking forward to going to games again. It doesn't feel like a chore anymore and it had started to feel like that after six or seven games.
00:26:19
Speaker
but it now feels like, right, actually, we're gonna be in this, we're gonna compete, we're gonna get what we expect, which is the bare minimum of putting it in and making life difficult and pressing high under Smith seems to be kind of the order of the day. It just feels like, actually, look, I wasn't massively in favor of Daniel Farker going and I was trying to retain the hope that he would turn things around, but it was in hope rather than expectation.
00:26:49
Speaker
And actually right now, after three games, it feels like a fresh voice. The players, you know, kind of been up for it again, that the players responding to that fresh voice is really what we needed in it. And it was the right call to perhaps call time on, on Faka's career. And it's given everyone a bit, everyone, you know, any Noritran that you speak to at the moment is positive. And it doesn't feel like it's been like that, you know, kind of in a Norititi camp for some time.
00:27:14
Speaker
Well, it's no longer a foregone conclusion, either the season or each individual game. And I think, like you say, that really does make a big
Interview with Mariela Nissataki on Scouting
00:27:23
Speaker
difference. Okay, so the main reason for this podcast is not to talk about Newcastle and whether or not we're half full or what have you. It's actually because we sat down with Mariela Nissataki, the head of emerging talent at Norris City Football Club. Really key position within the club with regards to, you know, we just talked about the transfer window could turn out to be a fantastic one and you can only tell that in
00:27:43
Speaker
you know, a few months' time. And Mariela was right at the centre of that, being involved in seeking out players, using analytics very heavily, part of the movement of the club to go far more data focused. And you'd imagine Mariela gets on really well with Dean Smith because he's sort of
00:28:00
Speaker
claim he's a data geek and really, really into the video analytics side of things. So we had this conversation the week leading up to Brentford. And then there were a few other things to talk about with regards to Norwich City in the couple of weeks since. So we wanted to make sure that people had the opportunity to, or rather would want to listen to a conversation with part of the scouting team at Norwich City because they actually have the head space to not just be reading about new managers or which manager it's going to be, et cetera.
00:28:28
Speaker
Here's our conversation with Mariela. I hope you enjoy it and we'll be back the other end to say goodbye in a nice way, but enjoy Mariela. Tell us a bit more about what your day-to-day role looks like. It'd be good to see your specific kind of job role, emerging talent. What exactly does that mean and how does that play out into a kind of Monday to Friday or Monday to Sunday kind of day-to-day job?
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah, I would say Monday to Sunday. Actually, especially like weekend is we know in football very important.
00:29:02
Speaker
Um, well, it depends a little bit. I mean, I'm based in the office. I'm based in Norris in general. Um, of course, you know, uh, now that things have opened up again, traveling to games, both domestically abroad, uh, you know, starting a few, a few trips now. So I would say that this really every day is different. I mean, I.
00:29:28
Speaker
I watch, I sit closely here with Li Dan, who is the head of recruitment, the technical scouts in the office as well, so we are kind of working on watching videos, using the data, then I'm also planning my games to watch live, trips abroad. I mean emerging talent is
00:29:54
Speaker
You probably can, you know, the meaning is mainly play is from 70 to 21 years old. So I lead the scouting of those of this age group and then working very close with with Lee on that. Thank you. And just maybe tell us a little bit about for people that don't know your previous roles in football, maybe at Norwich City. And I know that you'd worked at Swansea before. What's your career path look like?
00:30:22
Speaker
Yeah, so I come from Greece originally. You probably understand from the accent. You probably say, you know, think Spanish, but it's from Greece. So I studied sports and physical education in Athens. And then I went to Cardiff. I did a master's degree in analysis. Then after that, that was one year that I went to Swansea. This was my first job in professional football. I worked before in Greece.
00:30:52
Speaker
as a coach, but mainly youth football. So I went to Swansea, I did a mixture of performance analysis and technical scouting, I would say. Then I went back for a few months, I worked for a Greek club on the analysis side more, and I joined Norwich 2017, January as a technical scout, and then, you know, kind of have undertaken different roles in the club
00:31:22
Speaker
from this time. So you mentioned technical scout. Is that a specific job role that means studying data and footage as opposed to seeing people perform in real life? Like, is that what technical scout means? Well, it is a mixture, I would say. Yeah, it's not, I mean, yeah, I wasn't involved. I wasn't really involved that much life scouting back then.
00:31:50
Speaker
It was a lot of video, it was a lot of using the data, a lot of trying to use the data to flag players and then maybe watch them on video and see how they're performing. Also trying to help the scouts by coordinating information and guide them a little bit. This is a very broad role and with a lot of different responsibilities, I would say.
00:32:20
Speaker
Since 2017, would you say that the club has become more data driven than it was or maybe changed the data model that it uses to define this looks like an emerging talent or is it still very much similar to a couple of years ago? Well, I mean, of course, we are trying to improve every year. I don't know if maybe it's data or it can be like other
00:32:45
Speaker
other areas, but yeah, we definitely have improved there and we are willing to improve every year, every day, I would say, on that. And we are very lucky, I would say, that Stier really backs up the scouting department in terms of resources, so we are very well equipped, I would say. We actually believe in that as a club.
00:33:08
Speaker
And so we use data to make more and more informed decisions to actually support the process. You know, I know a lot of people, they're saying, you know, data, you might miss players or they might lie or something. But for me, it's like data don't lie, really. I think the people lie. So if you don't ask the right questions, then you get the wrong answers. This is how I see it. So, you know, data, we don't really sign players only from data. But of course, the data help us to
00:33:39
Speaker
either flag players sometimes and then we watch them or when we like players and we like profiles then we use data to support our opinion and at the end of the day you have to use both and you have to be intelligent enough to
00:33:57
Speaker
to use all the available information and resources to make a more informed decision. So that's how we see it. What wins? You've got a data model that shows this is a perfect signing for the position we need. You've got visual evidence, the eye test of, I love the way that this person performs on the pitch. What if they clash?
00:34:23
Speaker
Can data ever overrule a signing and can the eye test overrule the data? Well, who wins? I mean, I think you go to the extra time there. So I would say, you know, like we don't really think like that. We don't say our data say that or the opposite. We really try to combine. It's very, very difficult that, you know, they completely, how can I say, like,
00:34:52
Speaker
outperform, I don't know if that's the right word, each other, you know, you might have some question marks on one side or the other, but you know, it's very difficult to be completely the opposite, if you know what I mean. We'd heard quite a bit in the last few years about Norititi trying to establish links in South America. Is that something that you've been involved in your previous roles? And how's that working out? Because I guess we haven't started to see the kind of fruits of that labour yet.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's something that, to be fair, credit is just to steer it again, because I think he was really thinking forward back then, where maybe a lot of people were saying, oh, South America, you don't have a lot of passports, European passports back then. But no, we thought that we have to be there, we have to start exploring the markets, also find the place that, especially in Argentina or Uruguay, there are quite a few places with European passports, mainly Italian or Spanish.
00:35:51
Speaker
But also we had, you know, our eye and our thing, you know, it's like Brexit is going to happen. So we have to be ready and we have to be proactive. So, yeah, I was quite lucky to get to travel there like three, four times. And from that time was like, like from, you know, starting from then, now I speak the language as well. So which is quite helpful. And yeah, it's something that we were walking and we, you know, continue walking now.
00:36:19
Speaker
And I know that you're saying, you know, you might haven't seen, but you know, there's a lot of work in the background on that. And I think now we're in a better place, of course, and have already created database, have established links and, you know, how we have our network there. And at the moment as well, like this year, we took another step. So we have now a scout in Brazil and a scout in Argentina as well, working for us, which is
00:36:49
Speaker
you know, definitely like a massive help and shows how the club really wants to get more in that market.
00:36:58
Speaker
That's really interesting. Mentioning Argentina, little birdie tells us that you were really prominent in spotting Emmy Buendia. Can you tell us a little bit about what specifically it was that jumped out? Was that an initial data? Was it data specifically that jumped out? Hang on, we need to take a look at this player. Yeah, well, I mean,
00:37:21
Speaker
To be honest, every transfer is really a teamwork. I have to be honest with you, sometimes you might be lucky to spot a player first or you might be in the end of the process. It doesn't really matter. The most important is that we make the decision and we sign the player. To be honest, Emi was really performing very well on data. So this was the initial flag. And of course, then we've done a lot of work on him, watching my video, watching my life.
00:37:51
Speaker
We decided to sign him. Is there ever a situation where someone like Emmy, you ever wonder how is it that you have picked up on it and other clubs haven't? Is there ever a situation where you think, I cannot understand if he's performing that well, and obviously he's a perfect example of someone who has then gone on to show what a fantastic return on investment he was.
00:38:15
Speaker
Do you ever kind of shake your head and just think, is there any professional pride in knowing that there are people in a similar position as you in another club who will be going, ah, we missed that one. We should have spotted that one. Yeah, to be honest, quite a few people, they have said that after. Of course, what a good spot and all these kinds of things, what a good transfer for your club.
00:38:40
Speaker
It's difficult. I know, and I'm pretty sure, and I know that a lot of clubs, you know, track him as they track a lot of different players. I think nowadays it's not like maybe a few years ago that, you know, it was maybe some clubs, they didn't know some players, but now we have like all of these platforms and I think every club probably knows everything at the moment. And so it's not really easy to find someone that no one really knows. So I think, you know, clubs were tracking him and I think that has happened with a lot of players, but then
00:39:11
Speaker
What is missing a lot of times from clubs is the action point. You know, it's like that decision making, that action that, you know, okay, we like him, but now we have to make the next action. So it was, I think, very good that our decision making was really quick and we were there first. So this was the difference.
00:39:30
Speaker
how secretive uh is it between because obviously you know you're going and sitting and watching games you you will therefore know who the other scouts are other other clubs and naturally you you'll would you ever say i'm here to watch so and so or would it would it be a case of
00:39:47
Speaker
You mustn't tell anyone who you're there to watch. And you mustn't share with each other which specific data point are we really, really excited about right now. Do you see what I mean? How much do you think it's actually different from club to club? Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, to be fair, there is a confidential part, I think, on it. Of course, you can really discuss openly
00:40:13
Speaker
I don't know if it's your targets or the information, but always, to be honest, because I've been in a lot of trips and, as you said, with a lot of scouts around and, you know, you always discuss. And I think that this is part of the job you're discussing about, you know, general. And it's very awesome. It's very good because, you know, I think nowadays when you're doing scouting, okay, one part is, of course, to be able to spot the player is very important and fundamental, but also the other part is
00:40:42
Speaker
really to be able to get information. I think whoever gets the information first, because as we said before, everyone really knows the players, is the one that really has the, how can I say, like the upper hand on the situation. So yeah, I mean, you're always sharing information, but yeah, you have to be, you know, it's mainly general information.
00:41:04
Speaker
You talked a moment ago about moving quickly for players and kind of being ready in the market. It seems to me like two players that we've moved quite quickly for in the last 12 months has been Dimitri Yannoulis and Christoph Scholes. Would it be fair to say, given your birthplace, that you were involved in those signings and do you think that Greece is perhaps a bit of an untapped market because it's not traditionally somewhere that Premier League clubs would go or Championship clubs would go to sign players?
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think my answer, to be honest, on that is going to be similar to Emi's in terms of like, yeah, of course, help that I am from there. And, you know, I could, you know, help on that and maybe having previous knowledge of the players because of that. But really it was, it was, again, a teamwork. Everyone has really was the players. It was probably easier for me maybe to communicate or, you know, even like, you know, read things in Greek.
00:42:02
Speaker
and all these kinds of things. But yeah, again, a teamwork on that. And yeah, Greece, it is an untapped market. I think it's a very specific that profiles now with Brexit is a little bit more difficult because I don't think it's only Greece. I think as a club, we, you know, we signed play from Denmark, we signed, you know, playing from Poland, playing from Greece. So, you know, we were trying to be creative in general. We didn't want to go only the very traditional markets
00:42:32
Speaker
And we actually think that there is talent everywhere. If you really do your work and your open mind. Now it's a little bit more difficult to do those transfers, especially for players older than like above 21. I mean, under 21 probably you have a bit more, maybe some more opportunities. But I think there are a lot of markets and if you really do your work, then you can find opportunities.
00:43:00
Speaker
Without naming any particular names, which I'm sure you wouldn't do anyway, is there a player where even though you've worked really hard as a team and the data suggests something, it's just gone totally wrong once they've arrived at the club and they haven't worked
Recruitment Challenges and Data Use
00:43:15
Speaker
out? So thinking, for example, two summers ago, you know,
00:43:19
Speaker
You don't have to be an expert to know that, you know, that recruitment was not a successful window in terms of a lot of the players we bought, it just didn't work out. Some injuries, some other things, culture fit, all the rest of it. But do you as a team, you say you want to get better every day. What kind of lessons do you learn from that? And is there any way that you change the data points you're looking at?
00:43:41
Speaker
Or how do you kind of avoid repeating a mistake when a transfer, I say mistake, no one's done it. There's so many factors that goes into a player working out, but how do you kind of prevent making that same mistake again by signing the wrong sort of player? Well, I mean, I think you said it, like there's so many factors. Of course, when something doesn't work out, but also when something works out, we're trying to see why. So it works both ways.
00:44:08
Speaker
you know, we're not just sitting on the success and say, okay, this worked out. And we're just trying to find why and we do the opposite as well. I mean, there's so many factors that you said, like so many, I mean, the risks is always involved and we know it. And, but it's our responsibility is really to try to, because you, you will never have a free free risk transfer if, if you know what I mean. So our,
00:44:37
Speaker
Our aim is really to, you know, if you have a scale, the scale to really tip on the side of, you know, like, of the like, how, like you have risk and then you have maybe the confidence, you know, so we really have to tip the scale on that. There's always a risk involved. So we're thinking about the different ways that you would identify a player. And, and you're talking about, you know, the scales of risk.
00:45:07
Speaker
I'm really fascinated by how you apply different data sets to different positions on the field. One transfer in particular fascinated me this summer and that was getting Norman in. So Norman was one who, all the talk was we need a defensive midfielder because skip is not going to be available. So we need a defensive midfielder.
00:45:31
Speaker
But obviously, there was a lot of discussion when we were linked, and it was, oh, we might be getting this guy. No one seemed to be able to agree what sort of player he was. So we were hearing from people who had seen him play that he's box to box like McLean. And then we were also hearing, no, no, no, he's the CDM guy. He's the replacement for Skip. He's a defensive infielder. And then when he was revealed to the media, he said, I'm here to be a defensive infielder.
00:45:58
Speaker
So other examples of where there's a particular set of data points where you're told, right, that the gap we've got is, we think Skip's going to go, now let's look at our list of players who we think fit in that position. But is it ever driven by position, or are you guys purely, if the data says that they're right, we will then put them up for consideration, and then it's just down to whether or not to decide
00:46:24
Speaker
if they can then fit in a formation. Do you see, I don't know, that was quite not the best succinct question in the world, but do you see where I'm getting at? No, no, I mean, to be honest, I don't, you know, I don't want to comment for players specifically. It's not really, I don't think it's my responsibility. The only, the only
00:46:43
Speaker
think I can say on that is, you know, as a scouting department, what our responsibility is to have options for every position. Then when we are asked for a position, then, you know, we are ready to react. So this is the most important for us. So, you know, we don't really want to go
00:46:59
Speaker
to dig down on specific things. I think the point director and the manager, they know more in terms of like the style and exactly the position that we actually meet. So is there like a group of data points that belong to defensive midfield versus a group of data points that belongs to a number eight that's box to box?
00:47:23
Speaker
I mean, yeah, there are different positions, of course, like there are different things that you maybe look for both. I mean, ideally, if you can find someone that can play both, I mean, that's in general is the case for every position. It's good to have a flexible squad. I think that's my personal opinion, I would say. But in general, yeah, I mean,
00:47:45
Speaker
different positions in them maybe different roles but again depends sometimes you want to play to play different different formations so it's
00:47:54
Speaker
It's good to have some of this conflict both. But as I said, in terms of data, yes, of course, we use different data for each position. And with emerging talent, you mentioned looking up to 17 to 21. I'd be interested, do you have anything to do with predictive analytics? So if the data is showing this at the age of 18, we think that by the time they're 24, hitting their prime, this is where their ceiling might be?
00:48:23
Speaker
Yeah, we are trying to use data for that and to help us again. And we think in general, this is not yet, I don't think not only in the club in general, I think it's not yet where it has to be to really be very, like to have a confidence score on that, but we are trying to use benchmark and maybe flag some profiles and we can then track and watch more. So that's how we use it at the moment.
00:48:53
Speaker
And talking about kind of predicted player ceilings, we'd heard on the grapevine that you might or you quite like to play football manager or championship manager as it's kind of known or for us oldies. We're really interested actually from someone in the game, you know, playing it to actually, you know, an idiot like me, you know, playing it at home who doesn't know much about football. What's the one element or you know, what elements are closest from football manager to real life?
00:49:22
Speaker
Well, I have to say that I used to play a lot, but from the time I came to the UK, I think I haven't really played. So I'm a little bit behind on Football Manager, which I've seen beats now and I've seen that it's really advanced at the moment. To be honest with you, I was still playing when we didn't even have the field. So, well, I mean, Football Manager is a big database, no? And then
00:49:51
Speaker
It is close to the reality, I would say, but then you don't maybe have all these everyday decisions that you have to make, probably in that pressure in the end. So it's a game, but I think that's how I see it. But I think it's a powerful tool. You can use it, the database from
00:50:11
Speaker
For many, I mean, this is how I started learning about players when I was younger. It was by playing football manager. I knew just every, you know, every player playing in some random leagues that probably I didn't need to know.
00:50:27
Speaker
And is there any players that you might have signed actually based on what you've learned in your actual day job or you've kind of said to people, friends who might play the game to say, oh, actually look out for him because he's going to be brilliant? Yeah, I have to be honest. I actually follow the football manager in Twitter. Sometimes they just flag some profiles randomly. But no, not really the case, to be honest.
00:50:55
Speaker
And so on your going back to what we're talking about with regards to balancing up what you see with what the stats tell you when you've been on one of your trips and you've been either in this country or another country and you're watching the game, have you ever kind of
00:51:12
Speaker
come away from a game thinking a player had a stinker, and then you look at the stats and you go, hmm, actually, no, he seems to have done quite well. Or are you now so well trained that you almost watch with the data behind your eyes? To you now, do you watch in a really analytical way? I think it depends. If I have a previous knowledge of the player, then it's a little bit different.
00:51:37
Speaker
because sometimes we can't really base our decision in only one game. The player might have a good game, as you said, and then probably you have the picture of the player, what he can do, and then maybe you know as well some things about the data.
00:51:54
Speaker
If I don't know the player, for example, and he didn't have a good game and maybe I look at the data and they're very good, then, you know, I have to question myself. No, actually not myself, but maybe the performance of the game as well. But also sometimes you say, OK, let's have a look. Maybe I haven't really seen that in that game. So I think the most important thing is to be open mind. You have to be open mind and accept different opinions.
00:52:22
Speaker
maybe from other people, but also accept maybe a more objective approach and then in the end you have to make a decision, but you have to make a decision that is as informed as it can be.
00:52:38
Speaker
And just going back to kind of data and analytics and statistics, do you think, you know, obviously you've kind of been to plenty of countries and watched players. Do you think that it's now complete, later is completely accepted in world football or are there still some old school managers, maybe even in this country or, you know, other countries where they just don't buy into it. They just want to, you know, what they see with their eyes is, you know, what they'll buy into.
00:53:04
Speaker
I think that still exists. It's probably going to exist less and less as we progress and as the year comes. But I think more or less, as you said, a lot of people have accepted it. I think the difference is how much people are using it and for what. Also, we have to accept that, especially in other countries, a lot of clubs, maybe they don't have the
00:53:31
Speaker
financial ability to really, you know, have these resources. But I think if you are really open minded, you really, you know, have that the right mentality, you can always, always find ways even with less resources to, you know, introduce data and your decision making. Because I think data, you know, when we when we say data, we always think about, you know, chances created or expected goals and all these kind of things that the more advanced, but data, it can be also, I don't know, minutes played,
00:53:59
Speaker
You can play a player that plays a lot of minutes in a small league, like a 70-year-old player playing a lot of minutes in Slovakia or even in Greece, whatever. This is data as well, so even by using those, it's very easy to really flag some players.
00:54:18
Speaker
That's interesting because obviously you gave us a couple of the obvious ones. Is there a stat that you think fans probably get very, very hung up on? But those in the know, scouts and data analysts for football clubs, know, yeah, that's not really that big a deal.
00:54:38
Speaker
I think a lot of the traditional stuff that we used to watch in TV a lot of times, even about, you know, possessions and all these kinds of things, I don't know, thoughts, I mean, yes, it's, it is an indication, of course, it is, they're describing something. But then, as I said before, I think, you know, if you ask them the wrong questions, you have the wrong answers. I mean,
00:55:01
Speaker
you know, maybe, for example, there are researchers saying that, you know, thoughts, volume of thoughts, they don't really...
00:55:11
Speaker
pay that big role or have this big role in the actual result. So a lot of people, they say, oh, they have 10 shots and the other team has two shots, how they lost, for example. But this is not an important indicator according to the research. So again, we make assumptions using their own data. That's why I said people lie really.
00:55:33
Speaker
You know, the data data like this is something that, you know, if someone says that if the data said that they made 10 shots and they made two shots, that's true, completely true. You know, you can't really lie on that. But then this how you actually in.
00:55:47
Speaker
Interpreter, how is it? Interpreter, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Interpreter. Sorry, my pronunciation is... I think you're doing pretty good. It's a lot better than my Greek. Yeah, that's fantastic. So it's really interesting because, like you say, on TV we are showing stats and recently we started to have, you know, expected chances created and expected goals and
00:56:10
Speaker
some people found that tricky to get their head around it. So is that closer to the type of analytics that you would pay more attention to, i.e. the quality of shot, the quality of assist, the position on the park where someone made that key pass? Yeah, no, definitely this is a more advanced method. But again, you have to know where to use it, you know. Again, it doesn't really tell you the truth every time. You need to know where to use it and how to make your assumption based on that.
00:56:39
Speaker
So that's probably why data will never replace the human scout because without the context that the human can apply to it.
00:56:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think they can do work for the scout, 100% and for the decision making. But yeah, in the end, you have to have the pressure that makes the decision. So when you're out in person, let's leave that to the side for a bit. Which stadiums that you... Oh, obvious question. How many of the 92 have you done? The English 92 league stadiums?
00:57:16
Speaker
Well, I think I've done more abroad. I've done a lot though in England as well. I don't know how many, I can't even give a percent at the moment. I've done a lot though. And what's your matchday experience like? Are you mostly sitting in with the punters or do you get nice box treatment and get to be in with the directors? What is your actual matchday experience like?
00:57:40
Speaker
Well, it depends. I mean, we're asking for tickets through the club, so it depends where the other club receives space for scouts usually, so different clubs have different spaces.
00:58:00
Speaker
I've also been in places that, of course, you have to not sit and watch the games under the rain. It's not really about the city. I've been to places, especially in South America, where you don't really get this.
00:58:20
Speaker
comfort, you know what I mean? But to be honest with you, this is probably for me the best experience in general and what I'm enjoying a lot. Of course, it's nice to go to the Champions League game, yes, and watching from the director's box, yes, it's nice. But in terms of me enjoying it personally, it's probably when you're like in some random places, watching games, probably with not being as comfortable.
00:58:42
Speaker
So where would you say is your, would it be somewhere in South America, your favourite place culturally to take in a game? Well, I mean, that's it personally, it's not only for football, but I quite like Uruguay. In general, like, yeah, I quite like as well the football culture, you know, it's a very small country with a big success with a national team as well. I think there are only three, four million and they're always
00:59:10
Speaker
seem to really produce top players which they also have this trade of adapting everywhere. Awesome. With the pandemic and the lack of travel that you mentioned earlier, again, no names, but have there been any players that we've signed that we've not actually been able to see in person? You've had to do it purely on video.
00:59:34
Speaker
I think that's not the case only for us. I think probably that's the case in general for a lot of clubs.
00:59:41
Speaker
that I know as well. So, you know, when you have to make, you know, I think that you have to adapt under every circumstance, like football did stop, but in general, the whole process doesn't stop. So you really have to adapt and make decision of course, you know, it was an idea for anyone in general, I think even for the players playing, but also for people working around it, but I think you really have to adapt.
01:00:09
Speaker
Just changing pace a little bit, Mariela, we're really blessed at Norwich City to have strong women in leadership roles at the club.
Women in Football Leadership
01:00:19
Speaker
I'm just wondering, did that make it easier for you to settle in in life at Norwich? And what are the advantages and disadvantages of perhaps being a woman in a really prominent role in the football club?
01:00:34
Speaker
To be honest, I'm pretty lucky because North in general is a very open-minded club, very family-oriented as well. I'm a woman and also I'm not from here. So when I came, I found it very easy to adapt. Everyone was very friendly. So this was brilliant. Now in general, as a woman, in terms of disadvantages,
01:00:59
Speaker
I have to be honest, I see it, and that's my personal view, in general, my personal thinking on that is I always see it as an advantage. And that's because, you know, when you can do something that you can probably distinguish yourself, I think it's good, you know, people tend to remember you, and sometimes maybe respect you more with, you know, you probably don't interview me if I wasn't a human now, you know what I mean?
01:01:29
Speaker
So I really see this as an advantage. I think maybe it's a little bit more difficult to enter the field. And I think we have as a society, I think it starts from education, from a very young age, I think, to create more opportunities. But it's not only create opportunity, because I think, especially in England, that is happening now. They are trying to create opportunities, but I think it's also to, you know,
01:01:56
Speaker
try to encourage, I think, as well more women to enter the field. And I'm, you know, I'm pretty happy if, you know, someone, if I can motivate some other women to do it, like that's for me is really an achievement. And I was going to say, what would your advice be to girls maybe listening to this, who want a career in the game? You know, kind of what, what would, what words of wisdom would you offer them? Yeah, I think you just have to work hard and be, and be confident, you know, that's,
01:02:25
Speaker
That's probably, I would probably say the same to someone is a man, but I think it's exactly the same for women. I think you just have to work hard and be confident and once you're in, you're in, I think then everything takes care of itself if you're actually working hard and really like what you're doing.
01:02:46
Speaker
Marielo Inisataki there, the head of emerging talent at Norwich City Football Club. Thanks ever so much to the club for getting us set up with that interview as ever. Hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed the review. Any thoughts, questions, comments, always feel free to get in touch with us. We're on alongcomenourishatgmail.com.
01:03:02
Speaker
Follow us on all those usual social nonsense. And there are a few face masks still knocking about. If you go onto alongcomeknowledge.com, you will be able to find the way of ordering the last couple that are still available before we get the run out to everyone. We'll be back very, very soon to review more games. In the meantime, mind how you go.