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"What has happened" ACN 147
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No corner flags yet. Mr Norfolk Holdings came, saw, paused some seats moving but nothing else was changed. Clare, Jon & Tom scratch their heads in audio form. One of the few episodes we hope is out of date pretty quickly....
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Transcript
Introduction to the Norwich City podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Norwich podcast, a honestly, helpfully happy, honourable homage to Norwich City. But as they can only bother for half a game, they're only deserving of half an intro of alliteration.
Why no sackings at Carrow Road?
00:00:35
Speaker
Claire, it's been a weekend of sackings in football. Lots in the championship, all over the place really, but not at Carra Road. Why do you think that is? Because everything's fine. What are you talking about?
00:00:49
Speaker
God, oh well, we all know why. It's because... Ben can't do it because he's going to look terrible and then he'll probably have to go. And Liam looks like he's asking to be sacked now. Like he looked shot in the post-batch interview. He looked like he was literally begging, please put me out of my misery. I'm all out of ideas here.
00:01:09
Speaker
um So it's got to now come from from the very top, hasn't it? And is he is he going to do
Norwich's game strategy flaws
00:01:16
Speaker
it? I don't i don't know. are we just going to continue game after game after game?
00:01:22
Speaker
exactly the same way. Like it's just so, so, so predictable. I ah can't even, i don't, I haven't got any words.
00:01:33
Speaker
ah Do you think it's worth, do you think it's worth petitioning to, to have our games only last 45 minutes? Because, you know, Chris Gorham pointed out to, to Liam at the end of the, at the end of the game that, you know, first half we're, we're we're a playoff team.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah, we thought something if yeah we were so were six going into the game at the weekend. um and And the defence that Manning is able to tactically get the team set up to be able to create decent XG or whatever in the first half is kind of what i guess he's relying upon. But, Punt, I put it to you my darling boy, that and it's almost a unique...
Leadership struggles at the club
00:02:12
Speaker
unprecedented scenario where the three sort of the holy trinity of board forward slash exec management um football operations lead in in terms of a sporting director and head coach forward slash manager ah can't remember a time when all three kind of areas of the club are on such shaky footing at the same time so that it almost they're almost kind of the None of them can sack or or complain about any of the other ones because they they none of them are able to go, well, we're looking after our part.
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah. And yes, yes, you have very succinctly put it like that. It's complete inertia. And I just don't. The thing is, i think um Mark Atanasio might even have said it in like the the Radio Norfolk interview that he did.
Should Manning stay or go?
00:03:00
Speaker
He knows that there will be a little bump in performance if you get a new manager in. There is, you know, I could see arguments. Double our point tally if we get that. Yeah, well, yeah. i But i could I could see the arguments for keeping Manning up until like maybe a couple of games ago. You're like, look, this isn't the environment that he's cultivated. This is, you know, this isn't his doing. These aren't his players, you know.
00:03:25
Speaker
some of that kind of resonates with me. But as Claire just alluded to, it's so predictable. The same things are happening, you know, again and again and again, despite the personnel that he's picking, you know, there were wholesale changes on Saturday.
00:03:40
Speaker
you know, did Shane Duffy make any discernible difference? Absolutely not. You know, kind of did Rorari McConville make any difference? No, you know, kind of, it was still the same defensive lapses.
00:03:52
Speaker
And the bit that worries me more than anything is that the players are, and we've said this before on the pod, the players are regretting. Harry Darling looks an absolute shadow of the player that we saw in the first, maybe what, four or five games this season.
00:04:05
Speaker
So, yeah, to come back to your point, yeah, we haven't been on this kind of shaky ground before.
Fan protests and management criticism
00:04:12
Speaker
um Possibly going all the way back to...
00:04:17
Speaker
I don't know, you know, kind of maybe Robert Chase days and, you know, kind of Gary Megson being manager and, you know, almost this. think got to go that You've got to go that far because because previously there's been times when the club have been out of out of sync.
00:04:29
Speaker
and You know, the the person making the signings has been under fire. um You know, the messaging has been bad. We've had, you know, the BK8 stuff. and But we've never been this indecisive, have we? that's the thing. wouldnt Well, I, but I think that it is for the very reason that, um, we are not, um, uh, that there isn't any one or corner of the football club that is performing to its, to its potential.
00:04:55
Speaker
So, off you know, it's not normal that off the field and on the field in every sector we are, are doing so badly. Um, and, uh, so that let's talk about the protests on, and after the game, let's ignore kind of the Slazinger five as it's called our friend on my football writer, um, uh, penned it beautifully.
00:05:14
Speaker
Um, let's ignore all that. The point is after the game, it was really vociferous and, um, you know, people yeah breaking through what is only four or five kind of metal and gates. It's not like they, you know, broke out of Alcatraz, but still banging on the windows, ah being really abusive, shouting stuff ah for anyone that they know the name of, i.e., you know, ah Zoe and Richens and Napa. And when it comes to Napa, it goes with the territory of of of buying and selling, you know, the players.
00:05:47
Speaker
When it goes for Manning, it goes for the territory of being being a head coach and they're very well remunerated for for those roles. I almost think, going back to what i was saying, Claire, about the three different parts of the triangle that all rubbish at the moment, I actually think that the board element, the sack the board element, the Zoe, Richens, you Neil, whatever, I almost feel that that is a distraction and I actually think the fans' ire and the the vociferous stuff shouldn't really be at them because to the point that we've made in the last couple of pods,
00:06:17
Speaker
if you're going to change something to improve the results on the pitch, spreadsheet boy, and to be fair, Zoe as well, yeah okay, put aside the river and thing. That's almost a coincidence that's happening at the same time.
00:06:29
Speaker
ah do you Do you agree with me that that calling her every name under the sun, and you know they're just doing their jobs to the best their ability. They are not why we are bottom of the league if it weren't for a team in administration, right? No,
Players vs. management: Who's to blame?
00:06:41
Speaker
no. So yesterday in the first half, we had...
00:06:46
Speaker
I think five decent chances. Two of them very definitely should have ended up in the back of the net. Two and a half XG, right? it like we We should have had just a couple of goals. Josh is one. like Josh earlier in the season would have stuck that in, no worries.
00:07:00
Speaker
That is not Ben Napa's fault that they did not score those goals. So ah kindt you know fans, we're angry. We are so angry. We're fed up. We don't know what else we can do apart from shout at somebody.
00:07:15
Speaker
So, yeah, I understand people get so angry that they need to expel the anger and they chant at Napa, they chant at Webber. But really what we saw on the pitch is entirely down to the players and to Liam Manning.
00:07:30
Speaker
And I was actually glad that the, i think it was after the game or during the end, towards the end of the game that the crowd started singing in at the players, you're not fit to wear the shirt. i was like, thank God. you're Like it is actually them on the pitch doing this. It's them that are mentally capitulating in the second half as soon as someone blows on them.
00:07:49
Speaker
You know, it's like, That isn't on Ben Napa. I genuinely still believe these players are decent players. The first half, we were good. We should have been to at least two goals up going into half-time.
00:08:04
Speaker
They are capable of it. What the hell happens at half-time? God only knows.
00:08:12
Speaker
i can I can understand everyone is so frustrated they need to vent it. I think the board do need to go, but that isn't going to fix what's going on the pitch quick enough. Sarge doesn't score because there's a new finance director or new chief revenue officer. like that that i mean so I completely agree with you. and and and The point point I wanted to make was, although there's one thing I'll bring Punt in on that I maybe would challenge that, but my my point is just it's very difficult in the heat of the moment when, like I say, you're just cycling through all the names of the people that you know are the other side of the glass and you want to shout as hurtful things as you can.
00:08:49
Speaker
But they i I don't actually, I i think Zoe and Annie Richens and and, you know, commercial folks at the club are are not, ah um they are not why we are having such bad performance on the pitch.
00:09:04
Speaker
And actually that, because they also didn't buy the players. And that punt is the one thing I don't if you agree that I would pick Claire up on with regards to it's not Napa's fault. It's not Napa's fault that Sarge misses an easy chance, but yeah know he he is accountable for the shape and the size of the squad.
00:09:24
Speaker
but No, exactly. so that's so that it's so starting to see this his but But but but but you you could argue that the fact that we are completely reliant on him and and last season we were completely reliant on Sainz for huge periods.
00:09:39
Speaker
Sainz popping up and scoring a goal and made up for you know him being out injured and and not having other... the these, these footballing related positions, they are the ones where we should be angry.
00:09:52
Speaker
Not, not people who are effectively just business people who are, who are doing an administration side of the the club. And even if they were the best administrators in the world, we'd still have eight points.
00:10:04
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, to Claire's point around the players,
00:10:12
Speaker
I do think that there are players that we have signed this summer that are talented and that will end up potentially being really good players for Norwich City. um I also worry that the squad that has been assembled for the amount of money that we've spent on it It just is completely
Squad imbalance and missing key players
00:10:30
Speaker
unbalanced. And that's the bit for me that I think, you know, kind of there's there's good players there. There will be some return on investment.
00:10:36
Speaker
There will be this almost this talent factory that, you know, that Napa's talked about. I think there will be some players that we sell for ah much higher fees than we've signed them for. Maybe not Ante, Cernac and Mate, you're our sec. But, you know, look, there's always some duds.
00:10:51
Speaker
um but it is the balance of the squad. Is the resources available to Liam Manning in terms of, look, there's no actual discernible number 10. I don't think we've got enough quality in terms of the centre of the park. you know kind of We haven't really got forward-thinking midfield player, you know kind of someone to to really drive forward with the ball or play meaningful passes. you know kind of That's a worry for me.
00:11:15
Speaker
The fact that Kenny is you know kind of having to skip past a couple of people to to advance up the pitch when Let's be frank, that isn't really Kenny's game. It's not something that he's ever naturally done.
00:11:26
Speaker
That's a concern. Great for Kenny that he's taking responsibility. you know Manning talks about that all the time. you know But he's having to because there's there's not an awful lot left in front of him. So it's the structure of the team that we've created that would be the biggest issue for me rather than the you know the individuals. It's the sum of the parts.
00:11:42
Speaker
And I just don't know... you know Connor said it. I was listening to the Pinkham pod. I haven't listened to it all, but um Paddy made the point about, look, January not being the answer. um and Connor quite rightly said, who's going to come here now?
00:11:56
Speaker
And i was like, yeah, yeah're you're absolutely right because you know we are the worst team in the championship you know kind of over the last four or five games. So who would be interested in coming to Norwich City at the moment unless it's for a pretty decent wage? Yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
So, yeah, everything just feels massively broken. And, yeah, it is the people in charge of the football that are collectively to blame. And and the fact that no one's really pointing the finger at anyone, you know, with any kind of singularity just just demonstrates how badly it's being run at the moment.
00:12:31
Speaker
that on the the point of Kenny the whole manager was effusive in his praise oh I like that number 23 blah blah blah if if you're spending you know now let's have it right I love Kenny um you won't find anyone who who's a high who's got a higher opinion of as me joking But if you're, if you are, and if you are spending 55 or 50 million pounds in a transfer window and at the start, at the end of October, start of November, Kenny is still the only person that the opposition needs to worry about. I know I love, I love Kenny. But that should happen in a team that hasn't spent anything because yeah we've had Kenny for years, right?
00:13:13
Speaker
ah Kenny was a hero of you know four managers ago, playoff promotion success. like He's had his time already and it would be a brilliant addition senior leader in a team that was pushing for promotion again as a...
00:13:27
Speaker
you know, glue guy as a guy who keeps things ticking over metronomically and does the things that we all know Kenny can do. When you need him to be a bit of a dribbler and a bit of a winger and sometimes play fullback, it's, it's, ah you're not, you can't expect, you can't, you can't expect great results when your, your best player is someone who was what, three eras ago, as much as he's still able to do it at championship level, you know, he shouldn't be the pinnacle of, of, of how we, we score goals and how we create and how we build up.
00:13:57
Speaker
the The regression point is really, really key. And I know we've said it before, but, and you know, Darling was one of the few so kind of elements when Napa could point to and say, well, I got that one right.
00:14:10
Speaker
And I do think on balance, I think he did. You know, he's he's he's had one absolute brain fart that's resulted in a goal. and It's not as bad. And like, it basically was sort of movement and positioning and being sweet. Like, it wasn't as bad as some of the mistakes we've made this season that haven't actually led to goals.
00:14:26
Speaker
And, you know, on on overall, Darling has been a a good signing. And to your point on, you know, in a couple of years time, there probably are a few of these players that are going to look like really, really good signings.
00:14:39
Speaker
But they won't if they are continually playing in this toxic atmosphere. So the the the challenge that is similar to you know, you talk you you were talking just before we pressed record. about throwing on an attack in wing and then playing and wing back as a, as a youngster get, know, you have to bed players in, whether they be young players, whether they be someone getting into a new country or a new league for the first time, is its environment as well. So it's one thing playing out a position, like we did for Sarge for ages and like we have done for Cianats for ages,
00:15:08
Speaker
And it's another thing expecting someone to perform and learn and have the bravery to try the things that are going to get them praise and get them developing in their career where they are fearful of booze, backlash and toxicity for every misplaced pass when, OK, they might be one eleventh culpable for how badly things are going. But they but they are therefore are going to sure as hell not going to be the next person to give the ball away because they can sense that the crowd are ready to turn and they don't want it to be on their backwards pass or their long ball forward that doesn't get picked up by Sarge that the Blue Boys get out. So, yeah you know, my concern around
00:15:45
Speaker
and the the ah people not wanting to come here isn't so much with the players because I do think that given the funds we have and given...
00:15:56
Speaker
that I think if we if we are on the if we've used up most of our bad luck with injuries in the first half of the season, um we need two or three more maybe to make a massive impact in January. But there are still enough games after January to...
00:16:13
Speaker
not not to Not to get promoted, that ship you know probably hasn't mathematically sailed, but we're very close to it mathematically saying. But to just stay up, there is more than enough games between January and the end of the season if you create some momentum. right you you you know You don't need 50 points from January end the end season. You probably need like 20, 25. Bearing in mind, we hopefully we're going to be at 12, 15 or whatever by Christmas. so Hang on. Where are we getting them from?
00:16:37
Speaker
Hang on. How many points do you have in that set by Christmas? 12. 12 to 15. We only need four of it we only four points from like the next eight games or something. but bit like i'm not i'm not I'm not saying that we're definitely going to get that.
00:16:49
Speaker
you You're going to need at least 45 points to stay up, if not more. I don't know. I don't know. you but to Check nearly every championship season and and it will. Not going to. the point Exactly.
00:17:01
Speaker
But the point is. Sometimes it'll be 50 points. Fine. But but there are not there are enough games if in the championship. yeah We have seen for ourselves very poor teams look gone and stay up. you You're going to have to go a point and half a game. I think that's.
00:17:16
Speaker
that's yeah i mean do But we but we that can be that's doable. This championship is shit.
Hope amidst poor performance
00:17:21
Speaker
It is doable. And it is shit. We've seen enough of the team, and that which is why I suspect you might not need anything anywhere near 50 to be enough because there's enough bad teams down there.
00:17:30
Speaker
But how mad is it? How shit are we that this is a really poor championship and we are still this bad? We're the worst team, isn't it? I get it. But with but foot there aren there are enough bright points where i would be confident um in If we can generate the bounce to get some points, which generates the confidence and fixes some of the frailty to mean that we can take the 45 minutes performances to 70, then then very quickly we could be on a run and we could be sort of 13th, 14th by kind of April. And actually, phew, we're reloading and we're ready to go. but My concern, if we leave the, so I'm not too worried about the players and the quality by January.
00:18:11
Speaker
What I'm worried about is if you, we talked last time we podded, um about potential replacements, you know, two losses ago.
00:18:23
Speaker
And the my concern is you you are you are getting close to the point where you are almost having to have the conversation at interview. What would your plan be to get us back out of League One at the first time of asking?
Who wants to manage this team?
00:18:35
Speaker
Because, you know, you're almost get to the point where if we were to be relegated, let's say we change the manager this week, and is There's probably enough of the season left that it's on him as well if we go down.
00:18:47
Speaker
Whereas if you leave it to you know the other side of the international break, which is you know now looking potential, and you start to kind of have to give whoever it is that takes us down the benefit of the doubt that, well, actually the rot had already set in and what was he going to do? Because and you know he only had certain... Do you see what I mean? like say oh That all feels a bit Brian Gunn though, doesn't it?
00:19:09
Speaker
Well, if you've got to you've that's the problem that you're going to be in. um yeah So does does Carrick sign up for um for for potentially going down to League One and come up again? like the the the The names that we could get, we're going to have to start shopping in the unproven who knows league. And I get the impression from Atanasio's comments that we're never, under his stewardship, I don't think we're ever going to have an unknown manager again.
00:19:32
Speaker
I don't think he fancies that. I think he has seen how much he needs reliability in players and in staff, Claire. Yeah, but then Liam Manning wasn't an unknown manager. He was proven at this level and proven at other clubs in this country and it hasn't worked.
00:19:48
Speaker
So it's hard to know where to turn next. you know ah just, I don't know, has Michael Carrick come in? I feel like you ah feel that if we do it before Christmas, we've still definitely got time. Although it is starting to sink in with me that there is a very real possibility that we might not be able to turn this around this season.
00:20:14
Speaker
But and then I keep saying, it's only November. It's only the 2nd of November. That's ridiculous. like I think teams have been bottom at Christmas in this league and then gone on a ridiculous run after Christmas. And you know we yeah, we're not going to get promoted.
00:20:29
Speaker
We're not going to get into the playoffs. But they've stayed up comfortably, certainly. So i I still don't think it's it's all over. But something has got to change and has got to change very, very quickly.
00:20:44
Speaker
And I can't see how that is going to change if we keep the same person in charge of the team, because His motivational capabilities are seriously lacking.
00:20:55
Speaker
He doesn't have any. he looked He looks so defeated. does. I saw the video and of Chris Gorham's post-match interview when he was talking about the, um you know, we we we would be sixths if it wasn't for the fact we had to play two halves.
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, he looked like he's going to cry. Yeah, he does look like he's going to cry. He looks like a thousand-yard stare. And it's one of those things where you think, I feel so sorry for you because I do not doubt the hours and the time and the effort and the soul burn that he's putting into trying to write it and the different set pieces and the different strategies. And the the i bet he is working all hours that God sends and trying to turn it round.
00:21:36
Speaker
And I bet that it it probably is incredibly humiliating for him because he left what was a very comfy thing and he'd built up a lot of credit. He probably could have had this run with Bristol City he wouldn't be under quite the same pressure because he just took them to a playoff, you know, playoff semifinal.
00:21:51
Speaker
So, you know, i i I feel for the guy, but what he has made very clear is I'm not walking away from four years money.
Management strategy and potential changes
00:22:00
Speaker
or three and a half years money. He's getting close to now. We can't blame him for that. because, and that is, you know, you take the risk in moving clubs, you take the risk that it all goes to pot and you have a bit of a toxic stink on you and you have to drop down a bit, you know, your next, you know, he's already done enough that he's going to get another job after this.
00:22:20
Speaker
What i wondered was, Punt, do you think, How's this for a potential strategy? Do you think Atanasio, who I thought spoke really, really well last week, and not as committal as some fans wanted him to be, but he said all of the right things in the stuff that he was saying about being non-committal that I wanted to hear,
00:22:39
Speaker
Do you think there's a potential that he says to the fan base, we are letting Napa go. We are going to try and source a new sporting director in good time for an essential essential tro news transfer window where they are going to be given some funds to try and reshape this squad.
00:23:00
Speaker
And actually, by coming out and saying, I actually think most of this is on Napa's ledger, which he sort of said the interview. He yeah. on on north north with Norfolk boys with Phil Rob I think um the the issue is that will the fans accept that him saying look we're going to stick with Manning we're going to give Manning some new players what message does that send to the dressing room though because sorry one more thing pump before I bring back in
00:23:32
Speaker
the when when Liam Manning is now putting it on Napa as well, right? So in his post-match comments, he's saying that something has to change. I'm not going anywhere. And those players in there aren't going anywhere. So he's almost kind of saying, look, from a footballing point of view, Napa's the only one I can see changing.
00:23:49
Speaker
and the players we've bought we have bought based on going for promotion going for the Premier League right you know Diallo you know nearly signing for Watford and Max and Chris Gordon who read that other chrisman had that other ah option as well I can't remember now and you know they I think it was Champions League or Europa League team he he must be well happy with his decision yeah Exactly. no darling and you know Darling, i mean like and Kvecevic, likewise, Kvecevic has played European football.
00:24:21
Speaker
yeah then the the They didn't sign up for relegation battle. like It wasn't even, like basically, they probably thought the worst that would happen would be eighth or ninth. With all of the rhetoric and with all of the investment that was being made, and they walk around Colney, and the fact that we went that far off with a bad team last year, you think, oh wow, okay, Sargent has stayed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:24:42
Speaker
I think that is that might be what Liam is getting at, which is that he's got a bunch of shell-shocked schlup, for example, who you know played well on Saturday, but he hasn't come. He's going around doing looking for to collect medals and collect promotions, right?
00:24:56
Speaker
he is He has not come for a relegation battle to to avoid a drop to League One. So therefore, I think that that might be what Liam's getting at. like Effectively, he's like, I want ah want to try doing motivational stuff, but I've got a bunch of lads who...
00:25:10
Speaker
who just didn't sign up for it. So i but you' it's almost like it's got a dawn on the lads that it's a relegation battle before that motivational stuff works. I just think he's done. i think psychologically Manning is done and he knows it. Like, you know, the figure that he casts or the shadow that he casts, you know kind of in in those interviews, he looks like someone who just, he's like, put me out of my misery. Like I'm just, you know, I don't necessarily think it's a bloke that's out of his depth.
00:25:40
Speaker
But this comes back to the point that we've made on on pod several times is that the the responsibility of the sporting director is to create an environment for a head coach to thrive. And it appears to me that Ben Knapper consecutively, you know kind of under Johannes Hofstorup and now Liam Manning hasn't done that. He hasn't cultivated an environment at Colney where there's this is culture of responsibility that, you know, everyone's in it together. It just feels like, you know, they're,
00:26:08
Speaker
the disparate individuals who who are, you know, doing their best and working hard. But but actually, there's just, there' the glue isn't there. So i think Manning's done. I think Manning knows he's done. And I think if someone tapped you on the shoulder and went, Liam, should we have a conversation about you maybe saying that you're going to walk away and we'll give you six months money.
00:26:29
Speaker
I wonder whether that might be a solution to this. with regards to Two years' money, maybe. Yeah, matt but you know there'd be some level of conversation to be had. um I think with Asanasio, I'm um ah um' quite interested in it the way in which he pitched it in the week you know in terms of his Norfolk interview because there was no immediacy around anything. there was The language that he was using was very...
00:26:59
Speaker
look, keep calm and carry on for a bit. We know this is serious and we know that relegation is serious, but we've got this and you know and I'm not into big upheaval, you know kind of all at once.
00:27:10
Speaker
that That kind of really worried me in terms of the head coach stuff. The fact that he knows that he will get a bounce if a new head coach comes in gives me a crumb of comfort.
Criticism of Ben Knapper's inaction
00:27:22
Speaker
The bit for me is, and and this is where there's a smidgen of hope, is Ben Knapper not acting is a serious, well, it's negligence. It's full-on negligence. So if Ben Knapper wants to be employed at a football club again within you know a sporting director role or you know a similar role,
00:27:42
Speaker
he can't have this on his CV that he just sat on his hands and did nothing. Because he just looks weak and completely powerless and you know kind of like he's he's bottled it. you know he's He's absolutely bottled it.
00:27:55
Speaker
Prospective employers would look at that, surely would look at that. If anyone does their due diligence about him, that they would look at him maybe acting too quickly with Torrup, maybe you know not acting at all with Manning.
00:28:07
Speaker
So I think he at some point, surely, he has to just go... right, this might be my head on the block, but actually if he's thinking five years down the line and he's going to be a successful sporting director somewhere else, he has to be seen to be chopping the head coach.
00:28:21
Speaker
And look, if that means that he's he's not sporting director at Norwich at the end of the season or in January or whenever, yeah then that's something he's just got to take on the chin. So that that would be my hope. um But again, you know you look at him post-match sometimes now,
00:28:37
Speaker
And I mean, I wouldn't give a penny for his thoughts. i'd I'd give several pounds for his thoughts because he he just he just has this stare. He has just just just this beaten look about him.
00:28:49
Speaker
So, yeah, sorry, I'm not offering you any solutions. Shouldn't he be coming out and saying something? He's hundred he's yeah just disappeared. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely Absolutely disappeared. It's worse than Webber. Yeah, absolutely shocking.
00:29:03
Speaker
Webber was a loose cannon and Holker a major guy. But deliberately loose. Yeah, but that Dan Holker will have had nightmares about what Stu had gone and done now.
00:29:15
Speaker
But he almost has the inverse problem now, which is that he can't, like, he'd probably be like, oh, I wish Ben would go and put his foot in it and say something misogynistic. So at least that changes. So the news cycle's she's focusing on something else for
Public relations and club reputation issues
00:29:27
Speaker
a change, right? Like, it's it is and is it's it's a challenge when that's a...
00:29:34
Speaker
so speak yeah isn't ah yeah dan Dan doesn't run PR for the football club, but the PR, if we use it in in kind of broad strokes, has been rotten at the football club for about five years now.
00:29:47
Speaker
So post-COVID, the way in which the club has tried to nail things, and I don't include a couple of good marketing campaigns because they are... individual and they are and produced by a marketing team who again have got absolutely no impact on what happens on the pitch and there's some really creative folks that work work there and they're doing a good job and they would be just as creative if they worked for Boots or Next.
00:30:11
Speaker
You know, they're they're basically just creative marketing folks, right? So they they don't deserve to be panned for any reason. and but But the actual PR, the way in which we represent ourselves publicly as a club, the way in which we make decisive decisions, explain them, and that is really naive. I mean, it's really, really amateurish.
00:30:34
Speaker
And I can't, that's the bit that I really did think Atanasio would and maybe there's wheels in motion to do this, I cannot believe that that that new PR representation or consultants or whatever it may work may be have been appointed because we are pretty much at kind of, especially with like angry protests in person outside the the place of of business, we are at kind of reputational management. Like you should be getting PR consultants in to try and help you.
00:31:05
Speaker
like So if that's not happening, like I cannot believe that's not happening behind the scenes. We we had PR ah consultants in the last days of Webber, didn't we, with Neil Ashton? Just absolutely, hilariously amateurish and grifter-ing. Just like absolute bollocks. The advice, in inverted commas, that that seems to have been offered. Now, we don't know whether or not actually the advice was completely sound on the club have completely ignored it all. and you know Maybe the advice was bang on, but the actions have not are not of a business that has taken advice from professionals who know how to do this stuff.
00:31:38
Speaker
Um, so it's, again, you, there is, there is hardly a corner of the football club, the institution, the organization. There is hardly in it. And there is, there is, um, apart from, you know, Paddy and Connor and some of the people who cut in Chris Gore, like we've still got a great beat. We've got really good journalists covering us.
00:31:59
Speaker
But aside from that, like there's, there is just, everything's rotten. And, It's a really hard sell to, you know, we keep saying Carrick, O'Neill, or whoever it's going to be.
00:32:10
Speaker
Like, it's a hard sell to be like, come in like I don't think it is, though, because if they come in and turn it round, they're going to look fantastic. And if they don't, then they'll be like, well, I can't work miracles.
00:32:23
Speaker
Yeah. So I don't think, i don't we're still a big club. We're still an appealing club. i think The ceiling is high, isn't it? i think that's the thing. Norwich's ceiling is still relatively high. And that that's your selling point to any potential new head coach.
00:32:38
Speaker
So we've got quite a lot of listed questions, which is appreciated.
Fan perception and support dynamics
00:32:43
Speaker
have dealt with a lot of them, I think, you know kind with VRR half an hour's worth of conversation thus far. I'm not surprised that that that we there's overlap. and There are a couple of kind of key issues. We're not in a kind of mid-table Premier League era where, you know, let's talk about the colour of the nets or whether or not we like the stripes on the socks. Like, you know, we we are in a kind of holy moly, we might be going down era.
00:33:05
Speaker
So, yeah, is there anything else in the questions that you think might be worth kind of focusing on? ah Just because I really like this question from Richard Freezer, it is, um Daniel Farker called Carra Road, our living room.
00:33:17
Speaker
What should we call it now? this Which I thought was a fabulous. And if we were still running competitions for the best question who'd win some merch, then Richard, yeah. me laugh when I read that one.
00:33:29
Speaker
Well then, Claire, you must have given it some thought and you have a wonderful answer. Well, I mean, the obvious answer is the toilet, isn't it? But then I thought maybe it's like actually more like a, really dark dingy cellar that you're terrified to go down because there's like really spooky things going on down there and you don't know what you're going to find so I'm going to say it that the cellar instead of the toilet on Halloween weekend yeah for the scary cellar all right and you might get trapped down there Well, I'd stick with the Halloween theme and say it is like a ah walking in dead um ah convention with a bunch of people cosplaying as zombies because, know, Manning, Napa, some of the players have all of the airs and graces of a zombie who is just mind numbingly
00:34:18
Speaker
you know traipsing towards doom we make brain dead decisions on the pitch um the the pr at the club is brain dead so you know yeah i'm going i'm going with some kind of zombie like zombie themed comic-con spin-off event happy sunday everyone I haven't got one of them in my house. I didn't know if it had to be a part of my house. I don't. as You can call it whatever you like, mate.
00:34:45
Speaker
Call it whatever you like. appreciate that. I also like this question from Phil Withall on um Twitter because i I think it maybe cuts to something that we haven't talked about. So he asks, has anything constructive ever happened by having 25,000 people hurling abuse at someone while they work?
00:35:04
Speaker
Protest is vital to convey feelings and awareness, but try doing your job with someone ranting at you. Now, I ah didn't attend the match yesterday. um However, I ah did watch a lot of it on stream. I had to attend my daughter's football match um rather than Carrow Road, and that was definitely the right decision because they won 4-2.
00:35:24
Speaker
But um it didn't feel like it went until it was 1-0, and it did feel like during the first half that from what I could hear, and you guys are obviously way more tuned into this,
00:35:37
Speaker
that the crowd was still with the players, that they were still bouncing off, you know, the fact that we were playing relatively well. They were still behind the team and it was only really at 2-0 where I think the players got it maybe, like, you know, kind of ri really warts and all.
00:35:53
Speaker
ah Is that fair? And also, and I guess, you know, kind of the question ultimately is, is it, you know kind of, is it the right time during the game to be digging out the players, abusing the players? Is that conducive to the kind of environment? And, you know...
00:36:06
Speaker
It's a hard one, isn't it? Because everyone's frustrated. are they In the first half, the fans were definitely with but the players and the team. like We were really behind them, really spurring them on. And we we clapped them off at half-time.
00:36:18
Speaker
it was the odd, random boo, but largely we were very much behind them. And in the second half, they came out. And then the inevitable... very early goal happened, which we all absolutely predicted happening. And then even then it wasn't really awful. The the chance did start up then.
00:36:38
Speaker
um But yeah, it wasn't until the second goal went in that it got really quite nasty. um i think I think most people do think that we're not... I think that's part of the reason for the frustration is if we were getting tonked 3-0 and we were 2-0 down after 20 minutes every game,
00:36:58
Speaker
there is almost more of a, yeah, no manager can get a tune out on these players and it would all be at Napa. The point is, particularly at home, we and because it's but that's what it's been like at Carradine, the last last home game, which I've already forgotten who it was that we lost to because we've lost so many games at home now.
00:37:15
Speaker
and But the last home game... Bristol City. Bristol City. The Bristol City game, until they scored. And it was it was like, if there wasn't a single Manning out, Napa out, none that. it was It was, you know, whilst it was nil-nil, even though that wasn't as good a performance as as Saturday, and there were still plenty of positive elements. And therefore, I think that is that's why the inertia is so annoying because you think... Not...
00:37:43
Speaker
not Putting aside, Manning has put some good coaching on tape, as they say. A good coach should be able to get enough wins to be mid-table, at least with this squad.
00:37:55
Speaker
Because you can't... It's not been... and the good stuff has not been fleeting enough. like Obviously, we've had three or four games where we've been abysmal almost from start to finish.
00:38:06
Speaker
But it's been 20 to 25 minutes worth, sometimes 30 minutes worth of good play up until we concede the first goal. Five or six times at home, you know going back to the Middlesbrough game, going back to the Millwall game, played some good stuff. like We played some really good stuff against Middlesbrough for about 20 minutes. We were all over them.
00:38:25
Speaker
and That point's been made around 50-50 games that we just keep falling the wrong side of 50-50 games. And, you know, Hull said, you know, we got off, the Hull boss, you know, again, in a post-match interview yesterday, said, you we got off lightly there, got off the hook because, you know, we weren't quite at it and they didn't take chances.
00:38:45
Speaker
that That is probably both the reason why Atanasio is able to be and reassured from Napa that actually holds strong, and but also the reason that the the fans are so angry because they just go, look how close we are to being a functional team.
Managerial future during international break
00:39:03
Speaker
and And, you know, things like not getting a penalty and things like the injuries and things that it does feel at the moment, like if there's um if there's something that can go wrong, it will go wrong. and And it does feel like Manning's time here is cursed from ah from a luck point of view.
00:39:22
Speaker
and Punt, if you have you got any inkling at all that we might see a corner flag like this this week, either before Sheffield Wednesday on on on Wednesday or for the Leicester game on on Saturday? Do you think maybe, for example, if we lose at Sheffield Wednesday, it's so untenable it's got to be caretaker manager by Leicester?
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think because Sheffield Wednesday are in such ah you know kind of a dire position, or I know they're going to... the Crowd there is going to be a little bit more buoyant because um they've hit their rock bottom, you know, and and, you know, the only way should potentially be up for them, um not in terms of league position, given their points deduction, but, you know, kind of in terms of the mood around the club.
00:40:04
Speaker
But no, I don i don't see a corner flag i don't see a corner flag this side of the Wednesday game. ah yeah ah you know They've already confirmed Manning's presser. you know Unless there's a serious change of of heart in the boardroom or you know within ownership, you know they'd have done it by now, wouldn't they? We're recording this at 10 o'clock on Sunday.
00:40:24
Speaker
It would have happened by now. They'd have put someone else in caretaker charge. So no, I don't see that. I do...
00:40:33
Speaker
I do think this international break might be the moment that they've been waiting for to take stock. But it just feels so negligent because we've you know look we're veterans of this. We've seen so many managers come and go.
00:40:47
Speaker
dice cast. but you know he's he's gone It's gone way too far. He could win five on the spin, a bit like you know David Wagner. He could win five on the spin. And it would still be two games away from, you know, complete almost, you know kind of toxicity again. So, yeah.
00:41:03
Speaker
but But I don't see it happening anytime soon. Should we have a more jolly question? Oh, yes, please. No, but we're going to make it into one. yeah
00:41:16
Speaker
So our our good friend Matthew McGregor asks, which away day are you most looking forward to next season? and And he puts forward Lincoln City. In League One, yeah. can i Can I be the first to put forward?
00:41:28
Speaker
And only because I think you'd nab it, Claire, given your proximity to the ground, but I would really like to go to the new Plough Lane. So I'm going to say Wimbledon.
00:41:38
Speaker
Yeah, mean, I'd have to definitely go with Wimbledon because I can practically walk to Wimbledon and I can hear them singing when I'm outside on my balcony. so that would be Fabulous, if I could actually go to Wilmerden, yes.
00:41:51
Speaker
It almost makes relegation to League One worth it. Although, aren't they doing quite well? They might get promoted. I think they're sixth. Yeah, they could actually go up. that would Then I'll go watch. I'd go and watch David Steppen.
00:42:02
Speaker
I'd give up. Yeah. yeah we did ever have a We did have another question from someone which was like, which other football club should we support whilst Norwich are so bad, basically? But um yeah, we won't we won't get into that.
Relegation concerns
00:42:14
Speaker
Tom, is there anywhere that you'd like to really you'd you know you'd like to go Well, I've ticked off quite a lot of them. Yeah, I did. is There's this this quite a few championship teams that are now in there that I've been to see yeah with Norwich already.
00:42:27
Speaker
And then there's quite a few teams that are still there from League One. So i i Stevenage Borough ever been there? I've i've not been Stevenage and that's that's obviously geographically quite easy but no much on it I'm just trying to find something for you my nephew my nephew is on the books at Stevenage under 14s or something so let's go Stevenage we'll go and see Josh Is he going play? I might tap him up to come and bring him on to the left wing back for Norwich.
00:43:00
Speaker
and and yes ah no I think I don't really want to i don't really want to cement and ah committing to expecting relegation, but you know we've we've we've talked a couple of times. We've talked about yeah your your your nephew, Claire. I've talked about taking my little one. love him.
00:43:20
Speaker
And um I saw a couple of comments on social media on Saturday evening, well, Saturday mid-afternoon when the game was over, about you know young people looking up at their responsible adult. This is the next question got.
00:43:33
Speaker
This is the next question. Go to that then, my friend. So um David Spinks on Instagram asks, he's kind of pinning it on the ownership, does does Mark Atanasio know or care that young children aren't being taken to games at the moment? And I think I mean, he probably doesn't know, and I'm sure he does care, but it speaks to a wider point, doesn't
Introducing young fans to the game
00:43:54
Speaker
it? You know, in terms of, I mean, the, the attendances at Carrow Road are dwindling. The amount of yellow seats are increasing. You would have thought, I don't know, you know, if you were looking at, you know, kind of blood in the youngsters now, you know, and, and you know, maybe be talking about first games or, you know, do you still want to go along if there's protests
00:44:16
Speaker
this is not the environment to be introducing children to Norwich City. Yes, Claire, I know that you're doing that with your nephew right now. you know... You've got to go in at the bottom to work out whether he's got the metal to be Norwich City fan. And so far, he wanted to come back. So we're very proud of him. hasn't even seen a goal yet.
00:44:37
Speaker
Whether he's got... It comes on Saturday. if he comes on Saturday, then he's definitely passed the test. That says something for your family. mean, my... My eldest daughter kind of pretty much had a break. She'd been plenty of times before, but she had a breakthrough season like in that Farka season. And and like ah we would be in the car on the way home and I'd be like,
00:44:57
Speaker
is he it's not like this all the time you know you have to steal yourself for the fact it's going get pretty shabby at times and she's like yeah yeah whatever dad but yeah it's now we're we're really in the mire yeah well i mean i i am i've been trying to lay the groundworks with my lad that um league one will be great fun and that we will win and that we will win loads of games steven he your way if it's not though we were basing this last time when it was great fun but what if we go down don't go back up again that's not fun atanasio did make the point that there are different sustainability rules in league one and it's a bit easier to buy your way up which would be his intention if that happened um you know ala birmingham and rexham was gonna say it did seem like a barbed comment around birmingham Well, no, but I mean, it is fact that you can throw more money at it beneath the championship.
00:45:52
Speaker
and But also, it is there is a there is a kind of earning your stripes element to going to football in the lower leagues um and going to some of those tiny little
Challenges of supporting smaller clubs
00:46:02
Speaker
grounds. And there is a nice feeling, and I certainly felt this when we were in League One, going away and stuff.
00:46:08
Speaker
And there is a nice feeling when you are... the you are but There's a lot of clubs in the that we go and go away to in the championship who see us as a smaller club, even though we've been in the Premier League more often than them, but they've won either European silverware before or they've, you know, like Sheffield Wednesday are, you know, on lots of measures, a bigger club than Norwich. However, haven't had anything like the same number of points, goals and Premier League football as we've had.
00:46:32
Speaker
But you would understand why they would see Norwich coming and sniff at little Norwich. We're in that group of teams that people don't think should be in a Premier League kind of thing. and But um've so I've sort of explained that that actually is quite a nice feeling to be undoubtedly the the much bigger team for most of the games we're going to play, especially when you go away.
00:46:52
Speaker
There's a nice swagger to that. um And, ah you know, we I've bought my tickets today for Birmingham away and because that was the game that we said was that was the first away game that was feasible with you know, yeah other stuff that we had booked in and the travel isn't too bad and stuff. And, and and so, yeah, I saw, I saw the tickets have become available and I fully expect to be seeing a different manager, and head coach by that game, because that is, you know, after the break.
00:47:20
Speaker
And, and I, I think, that there there is still a, you there's a catharsis to, even when it's really bad, there is, that that's the thing that, to your point, and Claire, like, if you if have, you got the metal to be a, I'd say a football fan of a not big club. I don't think it's necessarily the same if you're, if you're Man City or Arsenal or Chelsea or whatever, but if you are, if you're a, if you support a team outside of the big kind of 10 to 12 or whatever, know,
00:47:48
Speaker
yeah actually you do need to you need to decide do you want the life of where you're how happy you are on a Sunday morning or a Monday morning is based on 11 blokes you can't and do anything about to influence apart from shout at.
00:48:03
Speaker
So yeah, it'll be an interesting atmosphere I... i To your point, Punt, I don't know if I would take him if Manning was still in charge um and the results are still the same the way they are, because that's going to be a... ru i mean that's go By that point, you are just talking 90 minutes of hurling abuse.
Game predictions and potential changes
00:48:23
Speaker
Yeah. and and And we're not far off it, are we? Let's be honest. Well, i don't think I don't think the Leicester game, if he is still there in like at the Leicester game, if Napa and man that Manning are still there,
00:48:34
Speaker
I think that the the chance will start from the kickoff. I think they i think they will... i mean, um unless we win against Wednesday. mean, I do think we'll win for now But unless that happens... Stop clock.
00:48:48
Speaker
ah Unless that happens... um I think that they, they will not be able to do what they have been doing so far. I say they like, I'm like an immortal master. I'm not part of, we will be, we we have been suspending that and going, okay, come on then. It's another, another fresh slate. it's another opportunity for three points at home.
00:49:08
Speaker
If we lose against Wednesday or draw and play badly, I think that it will just be knives out from the, from the word go chanting, chanting, chanting to make the point that this needs to change.
00:49:21
Speaker
um Even Leicester, like they're, they're really unhappy. Their fans are really unhappy with the management, the board, you know, they're, they're struggling and obviously they've only just come down. So, you know, that we're playing two desperate teams in the next two games, desperately bad. And yeah,
00:49:41
Speaker
if we still don't get anything, i mean, it's that it's just even beyond dire if we don't get anything from the next two games. Well, you again, we haven't signed scrappers.
00:49:55
Speaker
We haven't signed championship stalwarts apart from Darling, who you feel if he had some other lads around him doing the same thing, it would be in the roll your sleeves up camp. And we'll have had to have done that at times for Swansea.
00:50:07
Speaker
and You know, ah I, you know, Mattson's not that player. You know, Diallo's not that player. Fiskaran's not that player. Maybe he, again, he could get involved. He's bit of scrappy-do character, but, you know, he's going bounce off anyone. But, you know, there's...
00:50:23
Speaker
but yeah there's He is like Scrappy do. That's really good. but if you look at if you look at the Derby teams that have nearly gone down and not, and if you look at yeah the Blackburn teams that nearly went down, and you've got the likes of Veyman, Gerriton Diaz, Tom Ince. None of them are the players that you necessarily want to sign in order to push for the playoffs or push for for for promotion. You can probably hide a couple of them, a journeyman like that.
00:50:51
Speaker
But they are people who know when to fall over and tie their laces up, you know, just after going one-0 up and and know how to, oh, I keep kicking board. You know, the the the dark arts of the game, grinding out results Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Wednesday.
00:51:04
Speaker
Like, we I don't know if we've got more than two of those in the entire squad. So we go and buy loads of those in January? Go and pick off players from the League One and... and well and i Oh God, this all is dismal.
00:51:20
Speaker
Bloody hell. It is dismal, John. Yes, it is. The problem with the players that we signed is so few of them have had a decent run in the team.
00:51:32
Speaker
And outside of Kovacevic and Darling, I don't think I've seen anywhere near enough from any of them for me to be pleased that we signed them.
00:51:43
Speaker
It's so hard though. I think the first half performance, if we'd scored a couple of those goals and then we potentially would have gone on to win because we wouldn't have had the whole fear after halftime thing that we have every game. It would only be 2-1 when they scored their inevitable goal.
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But we would have had more confidence and I really think at this point in time, just getting a win or even just a draw, just to get that little ounce of confidence back at the moment, just repeatedly losing losing, losing, losing, and the losing in the way we are doing, it's just chipping off more and more of the confidence. And you can see it's it's gone. It's completely gone.
00:52:22
Speaker
So even just getting something. So if we scored a couple of those goals and we'd gone at half-time and we were winning 2-0, I don't think the second half happens then. genuinely don't, because the crowd would have been really up for it in the second half. The players wouldn't have had that fear.
00:52:36
Speaker
They're capable of it. We know they're capable of it. That's why this is so tough. because we're not utterly shit. For half a game, we're all right, decent. So we know we can do it.
00:52:48
Speaker
That's why it's so hard to take, I think. um Sheffield Wednesday, they were expecting this season. They were expecting to be bottom line. for them like it's like yeah whatever this is where we're supposed to be and we'll just fight every game we were not expecting this i keep thinking back to the first podcast where i was like oh we're gonna automatic promotion you know really what what
00:53:14
Speaker
let's have some guarantees for sheffield wednesday wednesday and leicester saturday claire are you going to be bold are you going to be brave are you going to be accurate I want to be bold. Every game I'm like, today's the day.
00:53:31
Speaker
so i'm going to say we're going to win on Wednesday at Wednesday. Hooray! Because I have to believe. You have to keep believing.
00:53:43
Speaker
So, yes, and we are going to win 2-1. Last minute winner. That sounds really nervy.
00:53:54
Speaker
Yeah, it will be. and i'm who's going to score it? um
00:54:01
Speaker
I'm going to go Matthias because still have faith in him to come good. Punt. I think we will... I was trying to convince myself that we would win on Wednesday and then I said earlier in the pod that we were the worst team in the division at the minute.
00:54:22
Speaker
I think we might draw. I'm going to revise it I think we might draw... on Wednesday at Wednesday. um And I do think, ah in some weird kind of coincidence, um that Shane Duffy might get some kind of late equaliser and just pull Manning out of the mire.
00:54:42
Speaker
Yeah. And like, it'll just be so shit because i mean, I don't want that man anywhere near my football club anymore. And the fact, i mean, it's just so memeable. They're like the, the picture of him laying on the floor is, you know, yeah I know that's awesome.
00:54:57
Speaker
i mean you based ji But just awesome in a quite funny way, but actually just terrible in so many other ways. Oh, yeah. like That's why it's awesome. It literally sums up the season, doesn't it? Quite literally. But I ah don't know. like I just think, I feel like he might just pull Liam Manning out of it and get us a point. And then, you know, and then we'll get beat by Leicester, probably three or four nothing. And he'll have to go anyway.
00:55:23
Speaker
That would be very Norwich to do it that way around. Have a little bit of a, you know, oh, look, we've got a point. And then, nah. Well, Wednesday, on Wednesday, is going to be a first half Josh Sargent's hat-trick.
00:55:35
Speaker
And we are going to win 4-0. And then and that confidence is going to have Carrow Road feeling confused about has there's actually been a turning point?
00:55:47
Speaker
and And we back it up with 4-0 against Leicester as well. And then we do a pod... really baffled because now we don't know what to do um because we've we know we've we've helped the goal difference by eight goals and we've suddenly got up to 14 points and we're out the bottom three so that's what i reckon is going to happen in the next few days can i just say mate having podcasted with you for what eight years now too long that that might be the biggest load of bollocks you've actually put out there
00:56:16
Speaker
And I mean, you you know that was quite a high bar. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. Well, look, and you might as well hope it's 4-0 because ah thinking about the realities is great pretty miserable um and it's very hard to see where a win's going to come from if you think about things logically. So just going to stick with what I normally do and not think logically at all. Thank you very much for your time this evening, Claire. Thank you very much. I acknowledge you exist, Punt. And for everybody else, let's see what Wednesday brings.
00:56:44
Speaker
Mind how you go.