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"Their inevitable goal" ACN Pod 146
3 Plays2 minutes ago
Clare, Jon & Tom wonder where the corner flag is, maybe it's like when different areas of the country have their half terms at different times and the corner flag's kids are already off school so it's gone to center parcs or eurocamp.
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Transcript
Introduction & Current Mood
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Norwich podcast. It didn't get any better at the weekend, so we're going to talk about where we go from here. If we're going to go anywhere, is anyone listening?
00:00:33
Speaker
Claire, why haven't they done anything yet? Because they want to torture us. Honestly, I spent all day on my phone just flicking through Twitter thinking, please, please, please show the corner flag.
00:00:45
Speaker
and nothing and yet there he appears for the press conference instead. I'm just, um I can't even find the words to be honest.
Frustration with Club Decisions
00:00:57
Speaker
I'll tell you what the words are. but It's one of those. It's one of those. That's the biggest bit.
00:01:04
Speaker
but I mean, that's the only thing I'll miss as well. watch his press conference. I do a tally of how many times he says both of those things. And ah so far, that's the biggest bit is by far the winner. But um yeah, other than that, I wouldn't miss a single thing.
00:01:17
Speaker
But here we are still with him. So let's keep going. it's It's bizarre because you feel like there's a couple of... We're guessing because we're in that period of of time where the club has gone back into silent mode, which I feel like we've had a few periods of before where where sometimes the club go in a really nice run of keeping us informed about things.
00:01:39
Speaker
Obviously, they opened up to us and to talk about the and the additional premium seating and being hidden behind some crap bus stop style and bars. And everyone kicked off about that and said it was terrible. So maybe they thought, oh, actually, I don't don't really like it. Well, it's when we actually talk to them.
00:01:55
Speaker
but But pun, it's the not knowing and the vacuum of noise that just, that's almost more frustrating than how bad we were Saturday. Yeah, I mean, I missed Saturday, so I caught up on the lucky bastard oh well i caught up on the highlights. You missed nothing.
00:02:10
Speaker
I thought the club did an excellent job of putting together, I think it was about two minutes, 20 seconds worth of highlights on on the club's YouTube channel. i was like, yeah, outstanding effort. ah But i did listen to it on Radio Norfolk on my way home.
00:02:22
Speaker
um Yeah, a it's pretty grim for not knowing.
Vote of Confidence at the Club
00:02:27
Speaker
But then i if the club intends on doing nothing, then what do you want them to do? that's the really hard thing, you know, if it really is business as usual, which he appears to He's got a vote of confidence. But from his press conference, it sounds like, from the press conference, it sounds like he's thinking he's going to be there.
00:02:44
Speaker
A vote of confidence in who? A vote confidence in Manning? A vote confidence in Napa? Who gives that vote of confidence? like yeah should I mean, this has been a ah monumentally terrible weekend for the Atanasios, or Atanasios, whoever you say that, um you know, with the Brewers getting spanked and then, you Norwich's result. This is just so grim, but genuinely who does give that vote of confidence and who is the vote of confidence in? Because we were all at different stages of the, you know, who should, who should go the last pod. I think we're all relatively unanimous now that it's probably the head coach that initially needs to depart, um you know, with some others maybe following in, in in quick order, but I don't know who gets hold
Speculation on Future of Staff
00:03:28
Speaker
of it. Who,
00:03:29
Speaker
because we've we've talked about it for so long, Manning's fate seems to be intertwined with Napa's. Can Napa really... push the button on something which is going to make him you know massively culpable.
00:03:43
Speaker
ah don't That's just such a mess. Such that a mess. That's an example of where we filled in the gap. So we've not, no one's actually said these two are intertwined. Our set ourselves and, and, and people who are actually paid to have an opinion on Norwich have said that it doesn't make any sense for him to, um,
00:04:02
Speaker
for him to get to pick or more importantly, for him to get to sack and two managers in the space of a few months without there being some blowback on, well, hang on, mate, you're the one who said there was a candidate one, two and three, and now you're ready to get rid of him.
00:04:16
Speaker
and And, you know, he can't hide behind the players being no good and as a reason why that coach didn't work out. Because, yeah, actually, not only did you pick the coach, you helped by a lot the players.
00:04:27
Speaker
So it's it's it's logical. But we haven't been told that and Atanasios haven't said that, you know, you have to get this right. So I guess they are stuck in a bit of a you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't situation.
00:04:39
Speaker
But Claire, did what I found really interesting on Saturday was it wasn't toxic until it was unavoidable. So yeah there wasn't actually the, the, there was no anti-Manning, anti-Nappa rhetoric until we conceded.
00:04:56
Speaker
and And it, and it, and it wasn't good. i mean, it it also wasn't as bad as we've been, but it it wasn't good. It was sideways, sideway sideways, sideways.
Fan Emotions & Team Performance
00:05:03
Speaker
However, it's interesting that, and this is an awful thing to say, but I don't think we've quite got to rock bottom yet.
00:05:13
Speaker
And i always think I always think that saved Manning's job. Oh, fucking hell. But do you follow the logic that actually it might have been that Nappy was able to get on the phone for a Zoom call and say, hey, listen, Mark and Mike, good news is they didn't boo us until the 60th minute.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah. I think we we're still hoping. And I think, you know, we'd had the two weeks international break and we had seen glimpses of improvement in performance in the last two games, even though we lost them.
00:05:41
Speaker
So we were like, OK, maybe today, maybe today. And until they scored, i mean, both teams were poor. that Bristol City were were not all that at all.
00:05:52
Speaker
And um we we could have beaten them and we should have beaten them, but we did not beat them again. I think it was an okay performance.
00:06:03
Speaker
At halftime, was like, it's all right. It's not spectacular. It's definitely not awful. that I've seen a lot worse. um But yeah, when they finally did score their inevitable goal, um it was just it was almost more deflating, I think, than everyone. I just felt flat. I didn't feel angry on Saturday. I felt nothing.
00:06:23
Speaker
I just felt numb. And I think that was pretty much the way everybody felt. they were Obviously, then the chance started after that. But i think I think I just walked away feeling nothing at all, which is even more concerning, I think, than feeling angry.
00:06:39
Speaker
um I don't know how you felt, but yeah. I had a horrible period of about five, ten minutes after the goal where my little boy sat with his head in his hands.
00:06:52
Speaker
He wasn't even looking at the pitch, had his hands over his ears. He's not particularly sensory. He's not sensitive from a sensory point of view. It was just he didn't want to hear noise. Well, that the obvious... the obvious you know get sacked in the morning napper out because that's not what he goes to football for and not what he what he it's just it's real negativity nephew for the first it's his first ever not the lucky mascot we hope yes and and we turned to him in the eight because he we said to him before the game what do you think score going to be like 10 nil we're like brilliant legend excellent and then ah about 80 minutes i turned him and said well
00:07:30
Speaker
I don't think we're going to win this one, Lachlan. And he was like, well, it's not the end of the world, is it? And we were like, well, no, you're quite right, it isn't. But then when the final whistle blew, he burst into tears and we were like, what's wrong?
00:07:43
Speaker
um and he was just really upset that we hadn't even scored a goal for him to celebrate in his first ever game. So that was more upsetting than I think the actual result, to be honest.
00:07:54
Speaker
The sadness I felt was that why am I putting this on? Why am I encouraging my child to go through these ups and downs? So, mean, this is the same child that I took. It's a good life lesson, I think, though, to be able take it. I took him
Football as an Escape & Lack of Excitement
00:08:07
Speaker
to Bristol City away and that was a diabolical performance. And he had a similar sitting with his head in his hands there because he just thought, why have we come all this way to put in that little effort? The manner of the goals that night was diabolical.
00:08:21
Speaker
and you know, aggro in the away end. it was ah It was a bad away day. it's a good away day because every away day is good, but he doesn't see that yet because he just hasn't had anywhere near enough good ones to go that actually it's the bad ones that make the good ones. Yeah. He hasn't got the balance yet. No, exactly. So, yeah, the there was an element of that and there was an element, as as I mentioned you before, one of the things I think the...
00:08:42
Speaker
the when the football club get it right, they remember that, and I don't expect professional footballers to ever get this, and I expect them to be told to say things like this, but I think there's a very, very, very, very limited number of them have lived in the real world long enough to genuinely know this.
00:09:00
Speaker
But some of us, go to football for escapism. Some of us have got stuff going on that means that the one thing, would we just think, please give me something to cheer. And to be honest, if it's and if it's the referee having an absolute diabolical performance and we can shout and and rave at them all day, that almost gets us to the same place we need, to that catharsis we need. But, you know, move me, get me off my seat. get yeah yeah get That made me think about nothing else.
00:09:25
Speaker
I think there was about 10 minutes where they reminded us that they were actually a football team. in the second half and then it just went. Like the chance that McCondays missed. I mean, that just has to go in.
00:09:37
Speaker
yeah I mean, that that that was almost, that XG must have been like six just on that one chance. you cannot miss that. But but punt obviously, I appreciate you only saw the highlights and you listened to Chris, but you obviously were manning out.
00:09:49
Speaker
Have you, are you, where do you sit on the whole debate around getting manning out now and then Napa out a little bit later on versus just the complete blow the whole thing up and start again and just let the team coast for three or four weeks while we work it out? So,
00:10:05
Speaker
so I am definitely of the opinion, and I was on the last pod, I think, that like just get rid of everyone. Just clean house. you know full and you know I mean this almost the entire exec, given the contempt that they've shown the supporter base in the last week. I'm like, no, just clean house.
00:10:23
Speaker
um I guess the bit around Knapper and Manning, that's the pertinent bit right now, isn't it? I don't see it. Given that there's no impending transfer window,
00:10:34
Speaker
I don't see what difference, what immediate difference it would make to remove them both
Management Changes & Club Direction
00:10:40
Speaker
right now. Like, you know, is is Napa going to be, you kind of, is he going to steady the ship? Like as long as they've got, you know, some semblance of an idea as to who the head coach might be.
00:10:50
Speaker
Like, what do you need Napa for right now? Like, he's demonstrably failed for the last two years. So I can't see a world where he should be left in post. It is just a question of appointing the next head coach if if that's the direction that the but club goes. So, yeah.
00:11:08
Speaker
just get rid of them all. um And can it get much worse? I know you've just said about, you know, look we haven't quite hit rock bottom. I genuinely think, I don't think the championship is, i think there are some incredibly poor teams in the championship this season. So I'm not as yet worried about the R word.
00:11:27
Speaker
Cause I just don't think that would be a consideration for us this season. I think we will sort it out um to the extent that that, that won't be an issue, but yeah it's just, it's when,
00:11:37
Speaker
When don't know, I'm really conflicted about it at the moment because there's this games in short spaces of time. they I think they're going to give Manning at least these next two away games. and they But to me, it feels like if we win one of those, do they let him limp on?
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, they probably do. Does that does it do anyone any good? Probably not. it' the manner of the It's the manner of the results as well, I think. It's got to be performance plus result. yeah What is he going to change between Saturday and Tuesday? i mean he's Including the travel right to Derby. I know Derby is not Swansea, but the point is it still it' still there is you're losing at least half a day of travel. So it's not like he can do a double session that day.
00:12:19
Speaker
Um, and the, this, this, this, the three, three things on this. So firstly, um, I think if the Derby or even maybe the Swansea games were at home, I think they pull the trigger Sunday. I think it's corner flag o'clock because the, my point about it not being at rock bottom yet is we've haven't got protests outside the, um,
00:12:40
Speaker
ah the the kind of city stand, which, know, let's have it right. There was a mini one. There was a mini one on Saturday. Have you seen the post about the sit-in for the whole game as well?
00:12:52
Speaker
There's talk of protests then, but that is more around the stadium stuff rather than the But my point is that stuff is growing. So that that that has that has a that has a potential to get bad enough to force change ah on the business side of the football club.
00:13:07
Speaker
And there are people on the business side of the football club who can say we have ridden out some similar things like this before. And we we have been here before and it can can of can swing around and there can be positivity after that. We'll come back to that point with the whole thing in a
Coaching Critiques
00:13:20
Speaker
minute.
00:13:20
Speaker
and the With regards to the um whether or not he needs a win to to Limpon, my my main concern around why I have now gone from Napa out-keep Manning is kate ah sorry napper out keep manning to just get rid of the lot is, um, I just, I cannot see how he can now go into those players on Sunday doing the video review and whatever warm down and whatever session prep they're doing for Derby.
00:13:50
Speaker
And then today, Monday doing, doing the prep for Derby. how think of the atmosphere where you've basically said there's three or four players in this squad I can rely on and the rest of them are up to it.
00:14:01
Speaker
You know, how do you then in such a, like if you're going to deliver that much of a players under the bus scenario, that needs to be delivered either just before an international break, or at least when you've got the rest of the week until a Saturday game to say, right, I went ballistic.
00:14:14
Speaker
I'm now going to rebuild faith in you. We're going to positive things. We're going to get some quick wins and I'm going to basically big you up through the week so that, you know, I love you again in time for selection on the Saturday. Like there are, there's a minimum of like seven or eight players effectively who he is saying, he has said in, in 72 hours, don't check the maths.
00:14:33
Speaker
and I'm going to play, I'm going to feel seven or eight players. You might let me down. Right. Yeah. Like that is, that is tantamount to I've lost the dressing room. He's and because you combine it with that. You also combine it with,
00:14:45
Speaker
ah ah I'm really sorry. I can't remember which excellent esteemed journalist asking the question. think it might have been Chris, and who I think he has asked this. I think he asked this of Thorup in the really tough periods. I think he was Chris Gorham, who said, ah the is this side to side lateral passes? Is this what you're asking them to do?
00:15:02
Speaker
And he basically said, no. and And that was what kicked off the whole thing around, no, they're not playing enough forward passes. They're not being brave enough to play the ball forward. And so with those two things, i e I haven't got enough people I can rely on and and they're not doing what I'm telling them.
00:15:16
Speaker
They're the kind of two things that fans use to throw at managers or head coaches to say he hasn't gotten playing properly. He hasn't got people running through bricks wall for him and they're not running back.
00:15:27
Speaker
There was one occasion. Luckily, it wasn't the guy. mean, doesn't make a difference. We lost anyway. and One of the Bristol City attacks in the second half, there was there there was a turnover on our and attacking left-hand side.
00:15:38
Speaker
um because we' were attacking the Barkley in the second half. So they were running back away towards the soon to be away end. and And ah two of our Norwich players were half jogging, half walking back.
00:15:52
Speaker
And... that got some real growls from the people around me at least. And that's, there would, we just, i mean, also another thing, Josh Sargent's shot.
00:16:04
Speaker
So if his, if his slice from 35 yards, and ah there were several things that I think are indicating of a, of a player whose head is absolutely gone. One, he doesn't shoot when there isn't a genuine chance to score a goal.
00:16:17
Speaker
He is desperate. Yeah, he's shown how unselfish he can be. He doesn't shoot when he doesn't set himself. Sometimes he gets closed down because he really wants to make sure he's able to get a controlled shot off. and And he certainly doesn't and shoot when there's much better opportunities to play people in.
00:16:33
Speaker
and he And he did the opposite of all of those things and he just sliced at it. And that is not Josh. And that is to your favorite R word, John, regression. that That is a sign of a player with, I don't think talent wise, he's gone backwards or ability wise, he's gone backwards, of course, but in terms of a player who was finding the net with regularity, he is so frustrated. Josh version one again, doesn't
Potential Coaching Candidates
00:16:55
Speaker
he?
00:16:55
Speaker
Well, so I'm, I think that, that Manning has in Manning's comments, he has, he looks now like, and he looks like a dead man walking from a, from a, from a job security point of view.
00:17:09
Speaker
and I agree with you, you know, you can argue that sacking Manning just does doesn't help us before Tuesday because it's such a tight turnaround. I can almost believe that.
00:17:20
Speaker
however sacking However, sacking Napa, like you say, doesn't make a difference to the 1st of January. i mean, I know there's a lot of work that goes into stuff before then, but we we could still spend a month without a sporting director and we would still be able to spend a good six weeks getting ready for the transfer window. And all that work would have been done. Like we're tracing these people over 18 months, we keep getting told. So it's always like... also the argument is why would you like why would you give him another transfer window? Why would you give it why would you give him a head coaching appointment? Do you want him to appoint... Exactly. Do you want him to a sack and appoint another head coach? Because he's fucked it up the last two times.
00:17:53
Speaker
You know, I don't... and I didn't want Roel, so him going to Rangers doesn't bother me in the slightest. I wasn't convinced by him. I know you two were were much higher than than him. but I think his stock is in picking up a team that is beleaguered and then extracting at a ah fairly high level, like playoff worthy level of performance. He took Sheffield Wednesday from relegation to 12th in the table.
00:18:15
Speaker
No, no, no. But Manning didn't take Bristol City from like an absolute... um Wednesday were gone. Wednesday were absolutely gone when Roel took them over and... and they ended up 12th. But at one point, you know, they were kissing the playoffs. You know, it was an incredible turnaround and the level of turbulence and difficulty he's had to endure at that football club just means, I mean, that man is seriously resilient. So, i mean, good luck going into a car crash club like Glasgow Rangers, but ah at the same time, if there's anyone who could do it, I think you know he will have the the wherewithal.
00:18:47
Speaker
um that That's probably why I was as keen on him. It it wasn't stylistically, it was it was more about what he has about him as a human, I think, that that attracted me to to Danny Roll.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah. Well, there's there some there's a few names in the frame. I mean, we're talking like it's going to happen. They're currently is... if We hope. But I mean, the the names in the frame, you've got O'Neill, who's available.
00:19:14
Speaker
and There's Carrick i and ah Mark Robbins, who isn't necessarily available. But, you know, there is the Norwich City link. and yeah Quite often Norwich zig when everyone else is out el as and quite often there isn't an obvious candidate and that they end up going with or rather they go with someone who no one's ever heard of.
00:19:34
Speaker
and Claire, let's just pretend that they are the only three that they can choose from. Which one are you plucking for?
Evaluating Managerial Options
00:19:42
Speaker
ah don't think we'd go for Robbins because we'd obviously have to pay a lot of money to get him out of his contract. And also, i can't bear the thought of having Mark Robbins as manager because he is the most dour man in existence, really. And I can't, we've already got a fairly dour manager and that's bad enough. So no for Mark Robbins for me.
00:20:01
Speaker
i don't mind either either. I think Michael Carrick, would be more exciting. um I think he's younger and I don't know, Gary O'Neill, he did really well at Wolves and Bournemouth for a time, but I think he's got a ah ceiling, whereas I think Michael Carrick probably hasn't quite achieved what he is capable of just yet.
00:20:25
Speaker
So I'd be more inclined to go with Michael Carrick. And I think he would get a lot of respect from the players as well, which is why kind of I think not to get rid of Ben Napa yet.
00:20:36
Speaker
I think Manning's got to go i think the players are not listening to him. um He can talk as much as he wants about the fact that they're not doing what he's telling them to do, but there is a big issue there, isn't there? They are not doing what he's telling them to do.
00:20:52
Speaker
That's got to be on him. He's not getting his message across. They don't want to listen to him. Something is terribly wrong there. I think so i think get rid of Manning and give Ben Napa one more go and get in ah proven manager.
00:21:07
Speaker
not ah i mean, obviously Liam Manning was, and I feel a little bit sorry for Napa in that respect because he thought he was getting a good manager and that hasn't been the case. So give him one more chance because I still think these players are decent players.
00:21:21
Speaker
They're just being mismanaged. um So give him one more chance and get either one of those two in. I'd go personally go with Carrick and then see what happens. If that still doesn't work, then Napa absolutely has to go.
00:21:35
Speaker
Absolutely has to go. ah see okay what are you saying to that then, Punt? Claire's saying give him a third manager. No, I wouldn't give him a third managerial appointment. And and I think the reason that I would have him nowhere near that... I mean, those three candidates you talk about are pretty obvious, you know, kind of and in in terms of, you know, if you went to if you went to the bookies market, they would all be, you know, feature fairly highly. So you don't need an expensive sporting director to to identify those types of targets. um
00:22:07
Speaker
I think the issue for me is... Ben Knapper has presided over a culture which just just appears to be getting worse all the time.
00:22:19
Speaker
you know And look, you know we were really critical on this pod of last days of Webber. But there's no denying that he's done some really good work in terms of changing, you know, he used the word behaviours, you know, kind of at the football club. But, you know, he changed a lot of attitudes at the club around what Norwich City should look like and what not necessarily what we should stand for, but what we should maybe aim for.
00:22:40
Speaker
Um, and that looks like it's just being eroded slowly. So I wouldn't want him anywhere near that in, in terms of, um, If it was anyone out of those three, yeah, it would probably be Carrick. I'd ah i'd agree with Clare. The ceiling appears to be much higher. He's really well regarded. think he's even been identified in some UEFA circles you know kind of as an observer on matches. like he he His style of football interests me.
00:23:06
Speaker
He seems like he's quite calm. He's considered, um but but looks like he has a bit about him. I quite like the style of football that Borough played and under him. so um yeah, it would be him for me from those three. But I don't know if it will be any of those three if we're if we're talking in those terms. i'm not I'm not sure Carrick would fancy it.
00:23:27
Speaker
I don't think we're getting Mark Robbins. I wouldn't be keen on Gary O'Neill either. It just, I don't know, seems like a, and Maybe this is where we're at. gone that the The problem you've got, though, is the um you like a foreign unknown. That's your favourite. No, no. Well, I'll tell you what I was going to throw in the hat.
00:23:48
Speaker
Dave Shaliner from Stockport County. Okay. So you, but traditionally you, you are a fan of ah a foreign unknown. love a left field, love left field appointment. The only hipsters know about and that you very quickly can find stats that tell you that it's the right answer.
00:24:06
Speaker
i' I'm not sure the fan base is having that. like i think you i think you like I think as a, again, going back to my boy Lachlan, um, old boys and and girls in the the river end who feel a little bit out, like a lot it might sound trite and I don't care. Um, but I, part of me thinks that we really need someone to come out, to come out fist pumping, chest pumping,
00:24:35
Speaker
jumping up and down living breathing acting like this is the most important thing in the world i almost feel like as a fan base we need that like i feel
Leadership & Community Engagement
00:24:43
Speaker
like that we the next appointment needs to bring people together around the community football club and have some energy yeah and paul lambert's available mate go get him need need some empathy um and needs need need to that kind of empathy, that emotional sensitivity. And almost, dare I say it, ah even if it can be even even if it's a little bit performative prior to the results coming, I almost like frank that Franca kind of thing, the Klopp kind of thing, the, and yeah, Lambert to a degree, Farker, you know, in the once he sort of got bedded in a little bit more,
00:25:24
Speaker
and but those people who almost kind of go, look, I'm a personality. ah This is, this is, this is my identity. We are going to do this. You are going to love me because I'm going to do this, that, and the other. And if you don't like me, that's fine, but at least I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do.
00:25:38
Speaker
And my play, you know, we will hear the minimum I expect is running. The minimum I expect is that because, because Manning has said that, you know, that's what we'll hear. But there's, it's almost like the, it's when they're talking about stuff that's not to do with football, it's the, it's the, it's the way that they express themselves, the way they march up and down the touchline. it's the way they celebrate with the fans afterwards. Like for me, that was why I never fell in love with Toro. Like,
00:26:01
Speaker
He was just too boring and too vanilla and too steady. And as a fan base, I feel like we need we need someone we want to make a massive flag of again, right? like that And that either comes from success, or which you know we're miles off, for this season to be a success and and and for people like Sarge and people like Kovacevic and people who we think and darling who we think we might want to build next year's promotion push around or whatever in order to get them all bought in again we need someone who they want to run through big walls for and that the fans don't want Mark Robinson essentially I don't he's so dour
00:26:40
Speaker
I haven't said I want him. like No, no. I wasn't suggesting that, mate. But, you know, the i don't I don't think that there is a perfect candidate out there for Norwich based on what we can afford. i mean, there's some very interesting managers available, and but not you know there are too many who we would have to be on the verge of the playoffs and have just had our...
00:27:03
Speaker
manager nicked or we'd have to be in third and our managers just got nicked by someone at the bottom Premier League for us to be considered, if you see what I mean. like they we They would have to feel like they're going to be in Premier League next year or they wouldn't consider us.
00:27:13
Speaker
So I think we are shopping in that window. And to be honest, I think Gary O'Neill and Michael Carrick both might be ruled out for that reason. I think they might go... you know, they, they would both want like Scott, what's his face at Burnley Parker, you know, they're, they're going to want to make a, they're going to want to go in somewhere.
00:27:32
Speaker
Or if, um, scum guy had got nicked, that would have been a job people would have wanted because they because they were on, you know, they were on the way up and they were likely to go back up whatever. Where we are now, you're going have to do a really good sales job but on a manager of who's got that that high ceiling that you mentioned, Claire, like a Carrick.
00:27:51
Speaker
So I could get behind Carrick. I could get behind O'Neill. and I agree that I think Carrick over 15, 20 years might become a better manager overall than Gary O'Neill. But I think to what you said about role, John,
00:28:03
Speaker
O'Neill had a fair bit of turbulence at at Wolves. It wasn't like that's that last yeah that's fed that's not the least clown card club in football by any means. So, and you know, i I would probably pick O'Neill if I was being both realistic and thinking about the kind of person who might be able to tell a story of we're all in this together and I really care this. now get them fighting, definitely. He's got that passion. He's got a lot more passion.
00:28:30
Speaker
Now, just in what I just said, how mad is it that I'm choosing someone who played for us relatively briefly and over someone who was fucking grew up a fan, right?
00:28:41
Speaker
But how have we got to the point where someone who it should be like the honour of their life to manage this football club, but he doesn't talk like it is? don't think he was a fan though. No, and then he went to it. He wasn't ever a Norwich fan, was he?
00:28:55
Speaker
I heard them say today, the other day when he was saying there are more important things in football, which obviously he's got reason to say that. And yes, it is fair. But they were saying, should you want your manager to be saying that?
00:29:11
Speaker
That's going to transfer to the players thinking, oh, well, doesn't it really matter, does it? Because it's this you know more you shouldn't be hearing your manager say that. He should be coming in out fighting. Yeah, there's there's ways and times to say it. say that around... You just mentioned something there, Claire. Sorry, Tom, to come across you. But of the players.
00:29:28
Speaker
We haven't really got into the players, have we? Because we absolutely... Well, and actually, we kind of gave up with the pod towards the back end of last season. But, and you know, when we were talking like to each other...
00:29:40
Speaker
we absolutely caned some of the players for chucking it in the tour up because they just did. know it's written and And there's that same culpability right now because there are some similar, well, there's not many similar players in the squad, but you know that it feels very similar to to last days of Johannes, doesn't it? you know Kind of in in terms of They don't look particularly interested. They don't look like they're buying the style. They don't don't look like they know what they're doing. you know kind of and and that is
00:30:11
Speaker
Some of that has to be on them and a lack of proper leadership on the pitch. Because you look around that squad, there's not many. like you know If Kenny's not in the team and... so you know Sarge is probably your captain, but beyond Sergeant Darling, who are you looking at in terms of leadership on that pitch? I can't really name anyone.
00:30:34
Speaker
Well, i want ah I do want to get into players. So um this has been a long old weekend for me. And this has been the sort of weekend which is why I really my football club to take my mind off it. And I know you don't like it when I reference have a sports punt, but thank fuck the Packers are playing well. Well, not even playing that well, but at least they're getting results. They've got their own problems, but at least they're getting results.
00:30:54
Speaker
So that gave me a lift, thank fuck. But and just, you know, we talked before the season how much we hoped this would be Cian Ache's breakout season. he is He looks like a fucking bust.
00:31:05
Speaker
Juracek looks like a lad who's played his fourth game of five-a-side down goals and really should have stopped after three and definitely shouldn't have had that spliff just before the second game. Like, he looks...
00:31:16
Speaker
He looks fat. he looks He looks tired. He is not busting a gut. He is not competing for balls. Like he's doing that sort of thing where i'm going to pretend to dive in and then just like pull back and hope that they muck up their header.
00:31:28
Speaker
i don't want I don't want players like that. So I have got a ah a respect for Manning for sticking to his guns as long as he probably felt his career at Norwich could. good if that If that's what he's been seeing in training...
00:31:40
Speaker
then actually, yeah he he did what he had to do, which is you've got to see if you can get a tune out of him. That was a pathetic performance on Saturday. Like that was embarrassing. He should be embarrassed. Like that is poor. So, you know, if he's got stuff going on outside the picks, then i'm yeah I'm sorry for his difficulties and I'm sorry for his loss. and I'm sorry if that's impacting him or whatever it might be.
Player Performance & Efforts
00:31:59
Speaker
But if that is purely down to just what that lad has got in the locker, get him out of fucking club, because he's clearly got talent and he's not trying. And Rob Newman was very clear on Radio on radio Norfolk about... specifically with regards to CNATS and Eurosec, he talked about when he was doing scouting, he would scout players and he didn't want to watch them in the Champions League. He wanted to watch them against the lowest team possible they were playing in the league. that They were probably going to win anyway.
00:32:22
Speaker
And he wanted to see how hard are you running when you're already 2-0 up? How hard are you running when you're already 3-0 down? How hard are you running when you've already got a goal and an assist so you probably could coast because your data points are going to mean when it comes to the video review that weekend, you've done everything that you were asked of. You've hit your goals, your KPIs, right?
00:32:38
Speaker
he he kind of help He very openly criticized, being from completely professional without actually kicking know sticking a boot in, all of his paraphrasing and all of his kind of assessments was aimed at NAPA really, and it was aimed at this data-led approach.
00:32:53
Speaker
The data points only work if you take the data in context. And when you're scouting, you have to think about the fact that, for example, okay, XYZ player might have hit 20 miles an hour at some point, but did they hit 20 miles an hour on the eighty ninth minute and when they were when they were sprinting to try and get a tap in to win it 2-1?
00:33:11
Speaker
Or did they sprint 20 miles an hour, getting back after they'd given the ball away and you're already 2-0 down away from home? Because that that context is really important about when they when those those things show up. And he spoke so eloquently. I wished he was our you know sporting director.
00:33:26
Speaker
and which who knows, maybe is an option in the future. But like they will report. I know you two think that Maxson is a great signing. Technically, he's great and a new manager might unlock him, but he is part of the problem. He is part of the side-to-side problem in a massive way.
00:33:40
Speaker
if If he starts, which he almost certainly will tomorrow, and I know most of us will be watching on a and you know streams or TV rather than there, but or tv rather than there Just watch. And like again, hopefully Manning's fixed it in two days.
00:33:53
Speaker
But if you watch his starting position when we are playing from a place kick, goal kick, um or when we're building up from the back, he occupies two players which basically stand seven to eight yards either side of him, or opposition players, which means that he can't get the ball.
00:34:09
Speaker
His movement is abysmal and he does not come in and out. And because of where he takes up his starting position, it means Kenny can't then come and do his little drop behind the back. and There's the centre backs to collect the ball and try and change the shape.
00:34:21
Speaker
It's only on the odd occasion that Mattson gets out of the way that Kenny can then come and do that and push Medici across the right. And it's been so simple for opposition coaches to work out that Medici, if you put any kind of pressure on him, because he divveth us on the ball so much, it means that he will play Stacey or he will play whoever he's passing the ball to, including Mattson and Kenny.
00:34:41
Speaker
He'll put them under pressure because he'll play it late when they've already been closed down, when it's already been really obvious that they are the only yellow shirt he could pass to if he's facing remotely forwards. It's so clear and obvious the shape of our play, the Bristol city who were half thinking about pies and beers and cider and rugby and, and, you know, singing songs about Manning, you know, it's not like you really analytically watch a game when you go and on an away trip, especially as far as that they were able to,
00:35:06
Speaker
pick up on the fact that we were sideways passing so much it was worth doing allays over. That's how blatantly obvious. So if that lot are noticing it mid game, do you not think that video analysis people are going, tell you what, if you if you put pressure on these two, they're just going to go side to side and then they're going then it's going to be force, a ball, which they're not good enough to play.
00:35:23
Speaker
Right. So i don't think, I think Medici is perfectly capable of being a third centre back in in a championship team. Darling's brilliant. Kovacevic has made loads of really, really good saves. So so fair play there. and Distribution is not what we were told it was going to be.
00:35:38
Speaker
um ah Oscar needs to start and play all the time. He's he's he's shown enough willingness and fight. Bear in mind, this isn't the manager that he signed for. you know He was really, really good, really good on Saturday. And he's one of the few people could hold his head up high, although he hardly got the ball very often, like Connor said on his stats on Sunday's rundown.
00:35:57
Speaker
and And then Emi Marcondes, like where's the real Emi Marcondes? Because that guy, that was a honking performance of the weekend. And he he's lucky to come back out in the second half. Like he was dreadful. and So like, yeah, Manning's got very, very little to work with there.
00:36:14
Speaker
But a few of those players I've just mentioned, like Marcondes, can be a tricksy little number 10. You're right. You've got Schwarzau. And then you bring on McCormick. and you're playing him out on the left-hand fucking side. Put him up front with Sarge. Give them a different option. Another thing that Newman said, like Rob Newman said, you know, you aren't changing the system at all.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, I heard him say that in comms, and I thought he was absolutely right. ah I think there's someone else that that we're potentially missing as well as part of this conversation, though, is... Just to go back to Mattson for a minute, i I don't see what you're seeing or recognise what you're seeing you know in in terms of Mattson. And I think there is a fine player there that is sometimes getting caught in possession because he's not up to the pace and intensity of the league yet. But I think he will get there and he needs to be given games to do so.
00:37:05
Speaker
But, and here's the but, But if you're Jacob Wright, what are you actually thinking right now? but yeah I mean, this this is a lad that was, you know not one of the marquee signings of the summer because he'd been in the building. you know, kind of he he knew the club. you really liked the club.
00:37:22
Speaker
Really bought into what it seems like really bought into what Torrop was doing here. And then, you know, look it went belly up. But, This is a lad, we've seen him. He was our best player like the last maybe eight or nine games ah of last season. He was terrific. You know, kind of he was quality on the ball, you know, his his range of passing, you know, the fact that he had half decent set piece delivery. you know, he was taking set pieces ahead of Nunez, you know, and actually back end of last season was the only time I think when we were effective off set pieces when when he was actually taking them.
00:37:54
Speaker
What are you thinking of if you're this guy? Because he's rotated, you know Kenny's been injured. um He's rotated Mattson. He's rotated Topic.
00:38:05
Speaker
I mean, how? Like, he has to start tomorrow for
Squad Rotation Concerns
00:38:09
Speaker
me. you know kind of a lot And I don't care who you drop out of, Kenny or Mattson, because as far as I'm concerned, that's there's a bit of a much of a muchness there.
00:38:16
Speaker
But Jacob Wright must just be looking around and just thinking, what the hell have I got to do and here not to get on near the 11th? Not even getting on. Not an opportunity to prove himself. Like, what conversations? And there was a rumour that...
00:38:31
Speaker
when the club started chanting, oh, sorry, the snake pit started chanting about Manning, that Wright was warming up and he was almost like cupped his ear to the crowd to go, I mean, if that is the say of the fucking club right now. can't blame him that true. No, no, absolutely. If you're not getting anywhere near it.
00:38:47
Speaker
but a so But the optics around that, you know, kind of ah around the whole piece are just, oof, just stinks, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Worth saying that apparently that was quashed and and i was as yeah. Yeah. and he wasn't trying to do that. And he was actually trying to get the fans to, to support the team, which I thought that might be the case at the time, but yeah.
00:39:05
Speaker
But yeah could the the thing with him is like the, the again, irrelevant, whether it's Kenny or Mattson, although Mattson is, and like I say, it might, it might, I technically he's great. And he's done a couple of really, really good turns, which is why it boils my blood that he does not try and fucking turn around when he's passed the ball. Yeah.
00:39:22
Speaker
he is and He is the worst culprit for me for past the way you're facing at the moment. And I understand why that because there's nobody in front of him? We haven't got a decent... If you if you don't turn round or if you if you don't turn round, how do you know?
00:39:37
Speaker
i appreciate him you have a glance. I don't see what you're seeing. No, I don't either. You've just got watch it and look and count. I'm trying, but I still don't see what you're seeing. Count how many times he passes the ball forwards versus how many times he passes ball i think you've got a vendetta against him. No, I read i i think abilitywise i ability-wise, I think he could be superb for us.
00:39:58
Speaker
And i i he has done... I've seen him do turns... in like the corners in defensive areas and get himself out of difficult positions. The ability is clearly there, but on Saturday, on saturday we were crying out for someone to have bravery or not even bravery. Then at times he had space behind him to turn out and he didn't.
00:40:17
Speaker
And he just would play it back, right back without even trying. And once it's one of those things that once you notice it, obviously you notice it more than that than than anything else. And the, To your point on right, I don't care who you take off. I don't care if you take Kvacevic out.
00:40:30
Speaker
The point is, one you would if but if manning's if manning's if Manning's issue is the players are passing naturally, why is Kenny or Mattson not coming off for for right?
Critique of Team Strategies
00:40:43
Speaker
You've got to try a different CM in there. Yeah, yeah. Or Topic as well, because Topic seems like he's got a bit more thrust about about him than any of the other midfielders, I'd say. And if you don't have, um if you don't have, ah and if you're, if you're, as a if I'm a coach and I'm thinking, right, these boys aren't listening to me.
00:41:01
Speaker
and I can't get them to go. i can't get them to feel confident that they are, that there's enough space to play the ball forward without giving the ball away. And I need to give them longer options because otherwise this is a waste of possession.
00:41:13
Speaker
So, yeah, put McCormick up next to Sarge and then basically go right, ping it in there and give them a completely different thing to worry about, especially bear in mind one of their centre backs or whatever is is playing in front in centre midfield. Make them change their formation, like make them do something different. And.
00:41:28
Speaker
he told us that he He told us it was all about flexibility and spontaneity and and giving teams different things to worry about. And his inflexibility with his formation is probably going to be the number one downfall.
00:41:42
Speaker
Because, again, what must McCarma think? He's come and he's just thinking, right, so I get 15 to 20 minutes and I'm out on the wing and I might touch the ball 10 times if I'm lucky. And he's looked an absolute nightmare to play against when he's been in and around the box. Yeah, he's missed a couple of a couple of chances, but then he's had not had many to get into games.
00:42:01
Speaker
I just cannot understand. When your name is being sung, obviously not as much as Napa, but when your name's being sung as is sacked in the morning, don't know what you're doing, you've lost five home games in the bounce,
00:42:12
Speaker
ah Again, going back to that almost trite point about bringing everyone with this and having a manager that that ties it all together. And sometimes just do the obvious thing that a punter would do and just like put two big bastards up up and like make it very, very clear. I have changed the formation here. I am trying to go for a win. Do you know what i mean? Like do something that is sending a message to everyone that this is what we're trying to do.
00:42:36
Speaker
um Do you think that's too simplistic? Like, why is he, he should be clutching at straws because everything, all his sticking to his guns isn't working, Punt. Yeah, I mean, the only mitigation that you can give him really now is that that we have had injuries to players at the top end of the park. and But I don't even think that's the issue. like i It's this this horseshoe-like, I don't forget who's called it that, it might have been Connor from the Pinken, but the horseshoe-like kind of side-to-side that you're describing, Tom, like,
00:43:07
Speaker
That appears to be the issue. it's it's So yeah, look, Kvist-Goran, you know, kind of Papa, yeah that that is severely going to, you know, kind of hamstring you and you know in in in terms of your attacking output if you've put a lot of your credit into those players, maybe producing something for you. But your point about Sernac is salient because...
00:43:32
Speaker
I saw a player in him last season. So again, you know, kind of how far, you know, has he fallen, you know, kind of, an and and how the hell does that happen? ah For me now, the only real attacking outlet that that Norwich have is a right back who's not particularly good at crossing. Like Jack Stacey will run all day for you, right? And, you know, and is one of the most committed players I've ever seen play in a Norwich shirt.
00:43:55
Speaker
Yeah. But technically he's not great and he cannot cross. like so Oh, I hate it when you say that. That's so wrong. He can. Well, all right, he can cross. There's nobody there in the middle the moment. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that is a combination of the two, I think.
00:44:12
Speaker
But I don't. I don't know, like Josh Sargent's in there a lot and he doesn't hit Josh Sargent at all. but So I i don't... ah but The accuracy of his crossing is is poor for me. you know kind of and And very often he'll take on options along the floor when it's like, actually, and he needs to put that in the air.
00:44:27
Speaker
But but you know to get himself in that position, he does... tremendously well. There was the bit where Oscar picked the ball up and he did brilliantly in the, I think it was in the first half, and everyone was like, yes, come on, Oscar. Like he literally dragged the team forward, except yeah they didn't go forward.
00:44:44
Speaker
And then there was nobody there. So he did all that hard work and then there was just, they were like, oh, we should probably have run to get up there with him. But it's just like, there was just no effort from anybody apart from Oscar.
00:44:58
Speaker
It's just bewildering how we can go from one of the top scorers in the well you nearly the top score is in the division to to this. lot of the players that were there already, they've gone backwards, haven't they? Yeah, exactly.
00:45:10
Speaker
That's the worrying thing for me. that And that's got to come down to the manager, surely, because they were decent players. They've shown us to be decent players. They've shown us they are very capable of attacking and attacking well.
00:45:22
Speaker
And yet they're going backwards. and And that's got to be down to Liam Manning. In the nicest possible way, we're also not we're not in the Premier League. We're not trying to play Champions League football here.
00:45:33
Speaker
No. but Whilst we think some of the sub but some of the some of the signings might not be and you know the sort of signings that guarantee automatic promotion, they're not Emmys and not Wessies and they're not Holt, they're not Pukies. But the point is they are still very, very capable technical footballers.
00:45:51
Speaker
And to your point earlier, Claire, around Bristol City, i'm I don't think we've played more than one or two decent teams this season. No, like that's the worrying thing. The number of teams we've played who have kicked the ball out of play, who have lost the slightest bit of pressure or press from us, ah ah have gone to part.
00:46:11
Speaker
that the And yeah I completely agree with Manning with regards to This season, if you look at the goals we've conceded, which I bet he has like late into the night, and you know because it's his job to try and stop it.
00:46:22
Speaker
If you look at the goals we conceded, there's what, two or three where you go, yeah, you know a really good Norwich team on their day can't do a great deal about that. That's really well worked. They've moved us about. They've opened the space really well, or they've you know they hit the top corner from from outside the box or whatever.
00:46:40
Speaker
The overwhelming majority of goals are just, he's made a mistake, he's made a mistake, no one was picking him up at the back post, goal. Like, that's that's the archetype, right? you just All you've got to do is stay in the game long enough against Norwich and eventually there will be a run of three mistakes in a row and you get your goal.
00:46:56
Speaker
It's the inevitable goal, as you say, Claire. yeah And i agree with him on that. like the the that We concede the most basic goal. But that is also why I think... This season, but you see it feels like it it feels like we're 28 games in. We're only 10 games in.
00:47:11
Speaker
It feels like there's more than enough time to to make back yeah know the three or four wins we need over the course of you know three. now We need to make back the equivalent of a win a month, and we've still got months left of the season, right?
00:47:23
Speaker
it's It's not all over. If someone can come up and pull together these teams and go... pull together these players and go If you just look one to eleven week in, week out, you know, ah relative if you put form aside, I'd still add most of our players over most of the players that we're playing against. like there's always three or four who catch the eye who think, you know, like the 14 who was doing a job in midfield. I i thought he i thought he had Mattson on toast. I thought, and you know, and ah Kenny didn't seem to have an answer for him. remember who so He was striding forward.
00:47:51
Speaker
Like, you know, every now again, you see a player, you think, oh, they look really decent. um but But generally, it's not like we're we're looking at line-ups or hit or subs are coming off the bench and you're going, cool are we in trouble today? No, haven't seen a single team that I've thought, wow, they're really good. no They've all been average...
00:48:09
Speaker
below average and and that's why it's even more worrying. that yeah you You only need to be competent. You just need to be competent to beat Norwich, especially at home. and And it's the narrative, right? So you know you know full well what they're going to be told on the pitch, on the coach, from the hotel.
00:48:27
Speaker
you know These fans are going to turn. You're going to add their sixth, seventh, eighth home defeat in a row on them and all you've got to do is stay in the game. If we can get our noses in front, it's going to be toxic and um and um and unravel.
00:48:38
Speaker
So but how do we conclude this? we We basically have decided that we don't know who we want, although I can make a case for O'Neill. um John wants a foreigner we haven't heard of yet. Hang on, didn't say that.
00:48:51
Speaker
I said Carrick or Dave Schelliner, actually. Thank you very much. Yeah, but you want a foreigner you've never heard of, really. That's what your heart is. That's not what said. Yeah, you have it saying and doing a two different things. like If we did it, then I could get behind it. Would I proactively go and do that? There he is.
00:49:07
Speaker
No, I wouldn't and do Let's hope Leeds sack Daniel and then he can come home. No, never go back. Never go back. Oh, no. Definitely go back. Just have an exception. Just have an exception with Daniel. yeah Come on. I think they, just just on guarantees for tomorrow, um my guarantee is that we draw...
00:49:28
Speaker
and that is painful in a way because we it's not going to be clear-cut. You almost feel we need a Millwall-level plan Or was it that was was it Burnley at home for Worthington? like you ah You almost feel you need like an absolute oh yeah walloping where you can just go right. There you go, you're done. The 6-2 at Newcastle or whatever, like you almost feel it needs to be one of those embarrassments on the night that just and enables everyone to go, right, this cannot continue.
00:49:59
Speaker
Because a 2-2 or a 1-1 or even worse, a 0-0, you kind of go well, was it a bit better? We could talk ourselves into it being better. Yeah, so that's why I think it probably will be a draw tomorrow. So I'm guaranteeing 4-0 Norwich. What are you saying, Claire?
00:50:17
Speaker
I think we're going to lose too nil and the misery continues. But I hope that that might then... yeah exactly exacerbate the corner flag coming out um but i think they'll stick with him until the weekend don't who would the caretaker manager be if he did go on tuesday night or corner flag wednesday morning who would be in the dugout for saturday hopefully george burley's at every brother-in-law hopefully joe schulberg because we did really well when he was first team coach so
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah, i still would have had Jack Wilshere. I still would have had Jack over him. um and then Well, we shall see how Mr Wilshere gets on, won't we, in his new gig? We will. ah He's got less good stuff to work with there than he's got with us. And then, go on, what's your guarantee? We've got 4-0 and a 2-0 defeat so far.
00:51:06
Speaker
I think we are going to win ah in a less than an at entertaining way, which does nobody any good. I mean, Derby are dreadful. but let's Let's just have this right. If we lose to Derby... That means nothing.
00:51:20
Speaker
The rest of City he had something like 27 players out on Saturday. Yeah, and they were playing a centre-back in the centre of midfield. He was good. He had a really good game. Yeah, Gorham was effusive in his praise, um you know, kind of ah on comms.
00:51:37
Speaker
Genuinely, I think we will limp to some kind of 1-0, 2-1, we'll scrape a win. it as I say, does no one any good because we will just limp on for another two, three weeks before actually the inevitable happens because the crowd is so far gone on him and Napa and probably the rest of the exec now that I don't think there's any getting them back.
00:51:57
Speaker
um you know So you only have ah one or two results from from toxicity. Okay, well, strap in. We go again tomorrow night or by the time you listen to this, tonight.
00:52:09
Speaker
And wherever you're watching it, I really hope that you get either the frustrating win that doesn't help anyone, the awful loss that means that you we can move on with corner flag or the jaw that makes everyone shrug that you hope for. and Take care of yourselves. Find how you go.