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"Clip This Up" ACN Pod 145
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For a divided fanbase, a podcast which reflects that. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was a team in 9 games. Or is the right answer Manning out? Knapper out? OR turn the whole thing on and off again?
N.b. re-edited version of this week's episode thanks to some Punt internet shenanigans that slipped under the radar of the first edit.
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Transcript
Introduction to Norwich City's Current Struggles
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome the Long Come Norwich podcast, where dedicated, daring and deeply disillusioned devotees discuss the disastrous dynamics of the Canaries. We'll dissect the dramatically dreadful developments, diving deep into dismal details definitely deserving dejection.
00:00:34
Speaker
The devastating difficulty is doubled by Manning's damaging docket made more dire by a deplorable Derby defeat.
Should Manning or Napper Be Dismissed?
00:00:43
Speaker
Claire, Manning out, Napper out, or both? Well, I'm trying to see the bigger picture here because obviously everyone's like, oh, they've got to be gone, they've got to be gone. And it's it's the natural reaction to want to do something to change it because what we're seeing is not good enough.
00:01:02
Speaker
But I just think... I just think... We knew it was going to be hard. We knew it was going to be hard because we had so many new players, lots of them never played in this country before, a new manager.
00:01:14
Speaker
But it's going to be hard. We need to be patient. And now it is hard. We're like, nah, it's got to go. So it's like, come on this We live in a society where everything is just so immediate and it's like transferred into our whole lives now.
00:01:27
Speaker
If it's not good enough, get it gone. What's wrong with something being, I heard angiopostococcoli today and it actually, what you said actually really struck a chord with me because it's like, what is wrong with something being hard?
00:01:39
Speaker
Like we don't just give up when something's hard. You've got to keep going. And it, you know, it's not a lost cause. You can turn things around. And I was like, yeah, you know what, you're right, mate. I mean, I don't often agree with him, but yeah I just thought, yeah.
00:01:52
Speaker
So I don't know. i don't think chucking them both out or either one of them out right now is necessarily the right thing to do. I'm now of a mind to, like, give them till Christmas because...
00:02:04
Speaker
ah In the last two games, I've seen glimpses of it being a bit better, a bit more positive. We weren't terrible yesterday. for sixtyev per cent of the game, we were right in there you know with Ipswich and the the third goal killed it off, really. but Against West Brom, we could easily have won that game. but yeah I don't know.
00:02:25
Speaker
ah just I'm not in the get rid of them immediately camp anymore, I don't think. That's a really interesting point that you raised about Ange because I saw that and clip as well today and was going to say the exact same thing. Sorry, I sold it. No, no, no, not at all. I think you and I are but are both pretty pretty much on the same page here anyway.
Balancing Football and Personal Life
00:02:44
Speaker
and But the as I said in the lead up to the derby, my current outlook on on football and and generally is that i'm I'm trying to have a healthier relationship with it. And part of that is, and and a big part of this yesterday was I was traveling back from and doing something with my eldest.
00:03:04
Speaker
and And actually it did occur to me. It's very unfootball fan of me, but because I wasn't in the pub with my friends watching it, I was in dad mode. And therefore I was thinking, actually, do I want him to see me,
00:03:18
Speaker
totally wound up by a game football and ruined my afternoon and shout and swear and rant now he's seen me shout and swear and rant and rave at Norwich and you know because if I am watching it from the start throughout but when I'm picking up after seeing getting the first bit of it from radio there is that kind of distance there so I was fortunate in a way that those scenarios were there but yeah having seen the Angs thing but also to a degree The Russ comments before he got sacked as well.
00:03:47
Speaker
like There is an element of just win.
Management Decisions and Their Impact
00:03:50
Speaker
Now, whilst Russ is a bad example because he doesn't seem to be able to, even with you know a long period of time, he never quite got the Saints playing exactly the way he wanted to with good results.
00:04:03
Speaker
And where with one of the most expensive championship squads ever assembled, he limped through the playoffs, et cetera. I get all that. But I do think some of his comments when he knew the time was up after the foul cut game were kind of correct in that he's saying, yeah, the Rangers have got this whole thing about just win. Well, actually, no, there is more than that. You can't just win. You do have to build a way of of saying, now, punt, just before I bring you in, because I i think you feel slightly differently to Claire and I, and i'm the the one the one thing I'd say about Manning is...
00:04:34
Speaker
He has had a number of really unfortunate events go against him in terms of injuries. And not just every club gets injuries. Of course they do.
00:04:46
Speaker
But the specific injuries he's had, has has had um the mean even the Snake situation, he didn't cause that. you know That is really unfortunate. That's happened on his watch right at the end of the window.
00:04:59
Speaker
If Snake doesn't push for a move... He doesn't have to, you know, if Napa doesn't accept it, if the Atanasios don't sign up, none of that is in his hand. Sarge has missed a couple of chances. He's only got 15 touches against West Brom. and It's on Manning, you therefore say, to fix it. Well, in the international break he had so far, Sarge wasn't there.
00:05:19
Speaker
So i think I think there are such extenuating circumstances around Manning, and it's way too early to say Manning can't be a success at Norwich. Napa, I've got a different view on.
00:05:32
Speaker
Punt, what say you?
Call for Changes in Club Management
00:05:34
Speaker
um I'd go slightly further. I'd get rid of um Manning. I'd get rid of Ben Napa. And I'd be seriously questioning the whole executive at the moment at the football club. And I'm not a rip it up guy and you know kind of start again. Usually, I don't feel like I'm knee jerk in that regard. In fact, early listeners to the pod will recall...
00:05:55
Speaker
me pretty much defending Daniel Farker to the hilt when actually there was serious criticism coming his way. So I think I've probably got some credit in the bank in terms of, like, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
00:06:08
Speaker
But... And this isn't a let's go for Liam Manning because, but you know what? He comes across as a decent bloke. He says a lot of the right things. He makes a lot of really good observations and and in terms of the game of football. He says some other stuff that I feel is a bit weird. But, you know, actually, this is a guy under pressure um who probably hasn't been in this scenario before. So I think cut him some slack in that regard.
00:06:34
Speaker
But it just feels to me like Liam Manning was such a pivot from where we were at. And it and it wasn't billed like that. So Ben Knapper was kind of billing it as, look, you know there's going to be attractive football and it's it's gonna it's going to maybe not you know be massively different. It will be different, but it won't be massively different to you know what Torek was trying to achieve.
00:06:56
Speaker
And it's just not that. you know He's also been billed as some kind of arch pragmatist. not even sure he's that either. You know, kind of, it's just, it's dull. And the, the big thing for me is with, when it comes to Manning, I don't think the players are having him.
00:07:12
Speaker
And you can kind of see signs of that on the pitch. And I agree with you, Claire, actually, you know, in terms of, we were much better against Sipswich in the first half. We were, I thought we were okay against West Brom and I wrote about it for the website. I thought that you know kind of that was our best home performance of the season. Yeah, really low bar, but you know it really was.
00:07:32
Speaker
um ah just don't know whether he's got it in him. and ah don't Maybe we haven't assembled the right squad for him. Maybe a lot of those players were signed.
00:07:43
Speaker
with you know the recruitment looking long-term and you know maybe they were players that that we thought would supplement a tore-up squad rather than a Manning squad. But if he is this arch-pragmatist, which I don't think he is, then he should be able to get a tune out of most squads as long as they're talented and talented individuals.
00:07:59
Speaker
So I think for him, ah just think it's it's probably wrong time for him at the wrong club. um You know, and and and if the timing had been different, if he'd have been brought in in different circumstances, then the maybe it have been really different.
00:08:15
Speaker
um But I think, as you might come on to, Tom, the the massive question marks are ah over Ben Knapper because, you know, the culture at the football club feels like it's changed. He's only been here not even two years.
00:08:28
Speaker
And we're talking about two managers that he's really, really
Examining Squad Strengths and Recruitment
00:08:32
Speaker
hung his hat on. Like he's really absolutely staked his reputation on them both. And one of them, you would say, you know, kind of it was a failure um as much as I'd have stuck with him and I'd have given him a chance because I thought there was probably a good enough signs throughout the first bit of the season and then and the kind of middle part of last season that, you know, I felt like he probably should have been given an opportunity.
00:08:55
Speaker
um And this one, look, you know, the form is relegation form. And this is a club that is saying, well, was outwardly saying up until about 18 months ago, look, our stated ambitions are that we're top 26 club.
00:09:09
Speaker
We're not. We're currently 39th in the pyramid. We're way off it. We're way off it. And it's really only this season. a couple of wins will propel us into the top half. Yeah, I get that. That's fine.
00:09:20
Speaker
But we look nowhere near it. And... There are people saying already, and I think it's hard to disagree or when you sit back and think about it. Like we might be in a relegation fight here.
00:09:32
Speaker
Like we genuinely might. And that is nuts to say after the, you know, the money that we've spent over the summer. So I think, I think it's, ah it is probably a little bit of, do you know what? Let's have a hard reset on it.
00:09:46
Speaker
Let's turn it off and turn it on. um, and then see what happens. Because I just, ah just the my only worry is if we get rid of them both and we you know the wider executive and we can have a conversation about if you want,
00:10:02
Speaker
um who are we trusting to appoint the next director of football? Who are we trusting to appoint the next head coach slash manager slash whatever model you want to put in here? um But, you know, I think we'll all agree, you know, regardless of our opinion as to what should be done next, it's nowhere near good enough right now.
Effectiveness of Current Squad and Management
00:10:20
Speaker
Like, we're so far off it in so many metrics.
00:10:26
Speaker
there's a few things I'd pick up there. I mean, it's not the the situation is and when Manning's come in, what he's inherited. None of that's his fault. No, no, I agree. the fact The fact that we talked about it wasn't exactly the way that he would do pre-season. There wasn't even time for him to change the pre-season plans.
00:10:44
Speaker
You know, he's made it quite clear, I think, in some of his ah press conferences. and I mean, it he got... criticism for for referring after Sunday's game, you know, Philogene drops a shoulder and turns someone and puts it in the top corner, although obviously Vlad should save it.
00:11:01
Speaker
um um You know, i want i need we we need one of our players to do that and people are going, oh, we haven't got anyone. Well, whose fault's that? i mean, that's the Manning didn't buy all these players. Like, at the moment, the only one that, the only player that was, that there was any noise about being Manning's guy is probably the best signing, darling.
00:11:19
Speaker
he's but He's the only one that was supposed to be like, he's here because of Manning. And he's the one that you would say in any, in literally any of our, he makes every single one of our promotion squads better.
00:11:30
Speaker
Like he he probably is a starting centre-back in most of our championship squads, or at least very, very heavy rotation. He looks superb. So, and he can play a bit better than some of them. So I don't know.
00:11:41
Speaker
i i think that I think that's difficult hold against him. But also I think i think there is a there's an element in terms of like, oh, you can't get a tune out of He's supposed to be a pragmatist. He's had nine league games yeah and then he's changed he's changed the team a bit for the for the for the cup games. So i I don't include them on his master plan. disregard that. That's fair.
00:11:58
Speaker
yeah right But do you really think the players are looking at him and having him right now? Because I i don't see that in the slightest. Yeah. I did in the first half yesterday and I did for a lot of the West Brom game and the West Brom game wasn't going to plan and we were still down and we kept going at it.
00:12:13
Speaker
I don't think, you know, it they actually said and previous to the game, unrelated to this, they asked about him and whether or not he and Ryan Mason were friends or did their badges together or whatever. And no, they didn't. Like, know, it was just, i know've I think I've coached him once or whatever he said.
00:12:29
Speaker
Mason was really going out of his way to praise the way that Norwich were difficult for for them to play against. you know He doesn't need to do that. I don't think he's throwing a fellow manager a bone. maybe Maybe if you want to be really unkind, you can say he is. I don't think it's fair after nine games to say he's not a pragmatist, he can't get him. I've just made the point around...
00:12:48
Speaker
the The issue is getting using the best one of the best strikers in the championship. We're not getting him into the game enough. He hasn't been able to play the same three behind or to either side of him, most of the time because of injuries.
00:13:02
Speaker
you know he He would love, I think, to have Chris Grimm out there. you know We think that we hear that there's rumblings that Juracek, who he again, he didn't sign, and doesn't have the attitude, doesn't have the the kind of dedication, although he does look physically stronger this year.
00:13:16
Speaker
and And to its extent, I think when your job is being talked about in these negative ways publicly so much, you start to think, I don't care what his attitude is. If he's the best I've got, I need i need a result. I put him out there. So I don't think it's fair to to just to to say that he hasn't managed to do it. And also, I don't think it's fair to say we're nowhere near it When to pretty much all intents and purposes, everyone is agreeing. We we have started to get a little bit better.
00:13:40
Speaker
West Brom was better. It's not acceptable that that's the best we've played at home, but it is the best we've played And again, away from home, that's the best we've pressed. It's not good enough because we didn't win the but he used he does seem to be turning it around. Go on, Claire. I saw a lot of Ipswich fans' comments as well, and they were all...
00:13:58
Speaker
amazingly actually praising Norwich's performance before the third goal went in, saying how how tough we were to play against. So, i mean, coming from Ipswich fans, that's a hard play. There was a lot of grumbles in the
Recent Performance Analysis
00:14:10
Speaker
first half, a lot of home grumbles, because ah what we what we hoped would happen did happen.
00:14:16
Speaker
but We thought they might be over-amped and they were like knocking balls out of play. Turns out that actually a lot of that was was you know put down to the the the higher press and and our starting position was further forward. and you know Over the course of a season, we have...
00:14:31
Speaker
you know I have criticised managers before for individual players making errors. and yeah Like, for example, West Brom, Cordoba and Fischer. I don't blame Vlad at all for that goal in midweek. Cordoba and Fischer both have absolute... They shit their pants within seconds of each other. If either one of them doesn't turn their brain off there...
00:14:50
Speaker
then we we draw against West Brom. Likewise, you know, individual errors ah getting against Ipswich, you know, cost us. Now, did we create enough? Yeah, probably. if if If we don't have... Do you think?
00:15:05
Speaker
yeah in for Yeah, I think we probably did in a darby. I think in terms of... It's not like they had 27 shots like Coventry. we was better. No, but they had way more, way more presentable opportunities than us. Did we create anything really where it looked like it was a chance?
00:15:19
Speaker
yeah we We had a couple of things that were over Josh's head and and and a couple of opportunities. Top itch kind of snapshot, but beyond that, I can't really think of anything. Maybe I'm getting wrong. like Prove me wrong. But I can't think of any decent openings that we've created.
00:15:33
Speaker
It's an away game in a derby. It's an away game in a derby and one of their lads has put it in the nearly top corner um you know in the second half and we're up against it. And the the industry, at the start of the second half at least, was seemed to be a lot better. But again, it's...
00:15:50
Speaker
The derby is always going to be magnified. If we nick a one-nit, like, for example, that, when Leitner, you know, snatched a point against, we were dreadful in that Scum game. Oh, yeah, we didn't deserve that. No, and likewise, we were pretty awful when Snake scored the free kick in the home game when Scum went We haven't been great for quite a few We haven't played against them for a while, right? But it's always magnified. Oh, we were brilliant that day because we won.
00:16:16
Speaker
But it's always magnified either way against the derby. And again, he could have done this the last game he needed when he was still finding his feet. But, you know, you you not haven't got Diallo, you haven't got Kvisker. Juracek is not up to it in terms of mentality, training, whatever it is. I mean, he's looked lively to me.
00:16:35
Speaker
Schwartow is an example. Schwartow looks like he is coming under Manning. He's the one player I think that looks a better player for Manning's coaching. I can't think of another one in the squad.
00:16:46
Speaker
i Well, I think Medic started to look better than his first couple of games. and And I've always been so worried about Cordoba. He he is he is... I think he's the most mistake-prone, head-switch-off, bonkers decision player in in the in in it in the squad.
00:17:06
Speaker
he he looks He looks like he is a clown car waiting to happen. or every game. like he's He's going to make a couple of massive ricks every game and you just have to hope that when he does it, he's either high enough up the pitch or someone like Darling or whatever
Potential of New Signings and Patience
00:17:20
Speaker
is behind him and can and can tidy up.
00:17:22
Speaker
and So yeah, like Claire, what do you think about Napa then and the and and the squad? lets Because we've spent, I've heard it different figures banded around, but I've heard like, you know, 55 million spent or whatever since Napa came in.
00:17:33
Speaker
Yeah. i mean I don't think it is as many as that, but the point is he spent he spent a few quid. Yeah. And is our squad better than when Weber left? I've said this a couple of times. I actually do think we've got really decent players in our squad. You look at Mattson yesterday. He was, aside from his mistake that led to a goal, he was really good. a pretty big aside.
00:17:55
Speaker
you no it's yeah You know, it's the one mistake that cost him, but he did a lot of really good things. And he's only won his third, fourth game. You know, the goalkeepers definitely, aside from yesterday, definitely ah step up as well. um Definitely Harry Darling is, who knows, with Chris Garden.
00:18:14
Speaker
I think he he will be a great player when he is fit. um So I think a lot of the players we've signed are really, really good players. They just, again, going back to being patient, they need some time to get used to it, get used to playing in a different country, in a different style, you know.
00:18:32
Speaker
I don't think Ben Knapp has been a complete disaster at all. Every club signs duds. Every single club signs duds. It's not just Norwich.
00:18:45
Speaker
Do you think that we tried too many new signings? Yeah, maybe. And a new manager. It's a bit much. Do you think that Napa's issue has been that he has tried too hard to hit the reset button? Napa's tried to do a turn it off and turn it on again.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah. um When actually, if he'd have brought in six players instead of 11... then we might have had a better, you know, there might have been less best betting in to And you accept, for example, that the defense is the place we really, really need to focus because we seem to be doing okay. We need to replace science. So you get a couple of different, white you get Chris Gorham and Diallo to say, well, hopefully one of those two can step into science issues.
00:19:26
Speaker
and And then you focus on on central midfielder, which is obviously every year we have to sign one because that's a constant problem for us. um yeah so Maybe that's it, Punt. that he he someone he he Because you're always going to get some duds, when you sign that many players, by virtue of that, there's going be quite a few duds.
00:19:45
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, look, if you're getting a 50% hit rate out of the signings that you've made, I think you're doing pretty well. ah you know kind of There are going to be calculated gambles and and not all of those will come off.
00:19:56
Speaker
um There's no doubt about that. And I think you know we could also probably add in the the context that we definitely criticised a number of Stuart Webber's signings on this podcast, which actually, if you now take it down the line and they have bedded in to Claire's point, you know, kind of, and they have got used to the country, that they were significantly better players, which have been assets for the football club. And, you know, we've sold them on or, you know, they've proved their worth or, or whatever, you know, kind of there's, there's definitely that context to it.
00:20:28
Speaker
I don't necessarily think
Strategic Direction and Management's Role
00:20:30
Speaker
the issue for me is around, the individuals that we've signed, because I think there are some talented players there, like Medici, I'm not having him at all, like if I'm honest. so ah I just think he looks like a bit of a cart horse, but I think there are individuals there that have been signed under Napa's watch that you think they're going to end up being a good player. And I i i thought Mattson, mistake aside, was excellent yesterday, like probably one of Norwich's most positive sparks in all of that, maybe with the exception of Oskar Schwartow, who was great, like really good.
00:21:02
Speaker
um But the squad's quite imbalanced. you know kind of it It doesn't feel like there's anyone to naturally link midfield to to attack right now. you know If we're playing Mirko Topic as some kind high-pressing number 10, that's an issue.
00:21:16
Speaker
And regardless of who we've got injured or who's on the bench or whatever, I don't see many other players that could fit that role when you should have maybe two or three that that could slot in there. it It is utterly criminal to me.
00:21:29
Speaker
that Josh Sargent looks this isolated because I don't think that's a Josh Sargent problem. um And that is a real problem. now whether that's Whether that's due to individuals, whether that's due to coaching, whether that's due to systems. you know what? I'm not learning enough about football to to maybe form ah coherent opinion about that.
00:21:45
Speaker
But it is utterly criminal that but his talents are being wasted. And I think probably some of that is on the type of squad that we've assembled. And and it doesn't look... whilst it's got some really talented individuals in it, it doesn't look fit for purpose for the championship right now. Now that could all change and it with a couple of results. And I really hope it does.
00:22:05
Speaker
I still hope in terms of you know everything I said about Liam Manning being... It seems to me like quite a good human and a decent bloke. And do I want him to turn it around? Yes. But i think what I was saying is, I think for me, I don't think he will quickly enough.
00:22:20
Speaker
And look, if he gets it wrong, and I know we I'm kind of going back to Manning, but if he gets it wrong against Bristol City or we get it wrong against Bristol City at home... carrow's ready like and as soon as that happens like you you don't get it back do you like you never date you never get it back well i mean to be fair wagner did so wagner was wagner after that sundland game he he was gone he was a dead man walking he looked defeated he but he didn't he say some quote about falling out of love with football or something like recently like some secret But he was only over a couple of results away from Carrot turning. Even when it we were like kind of sitting fifth or sixth, I think most people were still it. We didn't like football very much. i mean I think it's because we didn't like the players. And I think that goes back to that cultural thing. So but my ire is above Manning. He is not at Manning.
00:23:13
Speaker
And I think there are so many... i think there are so many... um I think it's almost muscle memory that, and I'm not trying, I'm not trying to belittle what you're saying at all, John.
00:23:27
Speaker
I mean, but widely, see, I was so serious and earnest, used your real name. and um i know Punny is actually your name as well, but you know what know do i know i really I'm not trying to say I'm patronizing at all, i but I think there is a muscle memory of shit result.
00:23:43
Speaker
i'm I'm hurting, my emotions are hurt, sack the manager. No, no, I'm not there at all. I'm looking at it as a body of evidence over nine games. You're on a hard reset. I know. theps The Ipswich game in and of itself, if you look at that in isolation, you'd be like, well, don't change loads.
00:23:58
Speaker
But actually... Same as West Brom. Yeah. But I think for me... But they are the last two games. But you're saying above him. You're saying change above him. And I think if you change above him, I think you probably, you may as well just change it all. Because when does a sporting director, when does a new sporting director come in,
00:24:16
Speaker
and have the incumbent head coach. They just don't. like that there is There might be a period of time, like Napa with Wagner, where actually he couldn't. but they're always going to get their man or woman or, you know, kind of like that. That's just the way it is.
00:24:29
Speaker
But yeah, ah but that's fine. But that doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do to clean house completely now and how disruptive that would be. And if, for example, Shortout is is starting to make progress and if Darling really wants to run through brick walls for Manning and if Vlad has been brought to this country by Manning and has had, you know, some good performances and really now wants...
00:24:52
Speaker
you know yeah ah It makes it... And if you if you clean house, you're almost saying, yeah, you two have assembled this terrible squad, so the squad's not
Critique of Club Culture and Communication
00:25:00
Speaker
good. the the the It's a four-year contract.
00:25:03
Speaker
That is a worry. Yeah, well, no, but there is tipt of going back to Andrew's point, which and Claire kicked off with,
00:25:13
Speaker
is you are a learned enough football fan to know that the overwhelming majority of when things have been good in your, you know, what are you on now? About 56 years you've been going to football.
00:25:27
Speaker
a I'm not the oldest one on this podcast, Tom. In your 30 odd years of doing, being an orange fan and very few of our favourite managers after nine games looked like the second coming.
00:25:46
Speaker
Right? And they haven't been... Mike Walker looks brilliant. Paul Lambert looked brilliant. Alex Neil looked pretty good. Paul Lambert, that was in League One. That was... paul paul he put He pulled us out of the absolute mind. Alex Neal didn't look great. alex After nine games, yes, he did.
00:26:03
Speaker
Not at Millwall, he didn't great. After nine games, we looked really good under Alex Neal. But they were not... and Lambert had the... be The context there is that Lambert was starting almost...
00:26:18
Speaker
at the bottom of the mountain. So like we had had ourselves crushed by relegation and then humiliation on opening day. So he, he was able to get any worse.
00:26:29
Speaker
He couldn't get any more almost immediately, but yeah he was a freak in terms of what he changed. yeah And Alex Neil the same, you know, and inherit a really good squad. Almost by the same token, almost by the same token, by what,
00:26:44
Speaker
ah Lambert went on to not do in the rest of his career, it showed how much there was lightning in a bottle and it was it was the right time, the right momentum. yeah ah All of the factors were, and it was a bit but you know, people might argue there was only a couple of decent teams in that league that year, et etc. But the and The thing with Manning is not, I don't think nine games in, I don't think I was ready to knight Sir Alex Neal.
00:27:08
Speaker
I actually think Alex Neal does have a bit of that pragmatism that is being said as that's what Manning is. Now again, Manning hasn't manning hasn't said, I'm a great pragmatism, I can get tune-up. He's been billed as that. He has, but that's not his fault.
00:27:21
Speaker
In the same way, it's not his fault that they sacked Tor up. It's not his fault that he had the derby when we were having this terrible run of form. It's not his fault that players have been switching off in really stupid ways. Now, It is his fault in terms of it. Fault's word. it's It is his responsibility to get us playing progressively.
00:27:39
Speaker
And we have all agreed that the last two games are the best two games that we have seen us play. They are still not up to scratch and they're still not 90 minute performances. I wouldn't necessarily say they're the best two games we've played. However, I think recent One of the better performances and ah immediately that's why Two of the better performances. Two of the better performances. the best at-home performance.
00:28:02
Speaker
and And they are and they are ah they are the two most recent things. So if you're looking at a trend, if you're looking at can you get a tune out of these players, we seem to be starting to make some baby steps. And as Claire quite rightly said, we could easily have gone into that derby game on a win. Like we've played way worse than that and won games. We talk about Wagner.
00:28:23
Speaker
we We have played some bang average football and and won games in this league. So, you know, and we have also played some fairly decent teams. Like, know, lot of the teams we've, you know, ironically been away at and and performed well at, you know, Stoke have gone really well. West Brom are going really well.
00:28:40
Speaker
And Kov going really well, scoring goals for fun. You know, we we haven't played the likes of Hull and, you know we haven't had like a bunch of... You've actually had quite a tough start when you look at it. Yeah. You may don't know that until you're 10 games in. Exactly.
00:28:52
Speaker
The two games that we've won, have been against teams that have been right down there. But I would also add the context around we really struggled, you know, in both of those games to to kind of get over the line with the results. Pompey, we should have finished them off. we missed We missed easy chances when we were on top in that I guess, so Claire, you've kind of decreed that Christmas might be the cutoff point for you. But I'm really interested in your opinion, Tom, you know, kind of in terms of How long does it bob along like this?
00:29:21
Speaker
Say, you know, performances kind of plateau where we're at right now. How long does it bob along? Because, I don't know, we're 19th. Yeah, longerma together that's thats it's there. No one's relegated.
00:29:34
Speaker
no one's relegated in November. 100%. however Right now, we are in a bit of a scrap. And not necessarily for relegation, but, you know, kind of we we... This is a season that could easily be a real slog and a real struggle.
00:29:48
Speaker
And so i guess what I'm asking is, and we always do these hypotheticals on the pod, is at what point do you... ah You know, and what does that change look like? That's what we opened up with, you know, wasn't it really? It's it's like...
00:30:00
Speaker
what would you change or would you change anything? and And we're all in different places on that. And I think that's probably fairly representative of the fan base, you know kind of everyone's really split on it. um But I think the point that you kind of touched on a little bit, Tom,
00:30:17
Speaker
doesn't really feel like we know what we are as a football club at the moment. and and that is of of And that kind of coming into the Napa point, that that wider malaise, that wider apathy, that that worries me a lot as well.
00:30:31
Speaker
I think we do know what the what we're trying to be because ah you, for example, gave Napa credit for setting out what he wanted to be. And he said lots and lots of really positive, correct correct in terms of our opinion of how we'd like football to be played.
00:30:47
Speaker
The issue is we haven't been able to either assemble a
Impact on Supporter Experience
00:30:50
Speaker
squad or have the right manager and the right coach to play that way regularly enough for us to feel that that's our identity. But just to answer your question specifically, ah the way the it's it's all completely contextual.
00:31:03
Speaker
It's all completely relative to how people around us are playing. So my benchmark for when is too long, how long does it bob along, et cetera, is contextual to the table. We are currently two wins off eighth.
00:31:14
Speaker
Whilst we are two wins off eighth, I've seen enough football, despite not knowing how it works and being an idiot, I've seen enough football to know that you can have a really good month and you can easily assemble four wins in five, three wins out five. You need a couple couple of, a penalty, a sending off, you know, so a so an um unexpected midfielder scores three goals in three games, all sorts of things. You can have a really, really hot month in the championship.
00:31:38
Speaker
happens to teams all the time. Now, whether or not we capitalise on it and carry on, I don't know. Whether or not Manning is right long-term, I don't know. But I, ah I think whilst we are still in a relatively embryonic stages of a, you know, 40 odd game season, and we've not even got to 10 games yet.
00:31:54
Speaker
it I just think there is way more harm than can be done than potential good. When the ship has not sailed yet. Yes. Cover top of the league. They have not won the league after nine games.
00:32:05
Speaker
You know, you remember QPR being top? Well, I was at the season, last season, the season before, whatever, like, you know, ah relatively this stage, you know, you, you, you, Depending on who you play, when you play them, you know, if you play a good team when they're betting players in, maybe actually they end up, you know, people who played Sheffield United when they were down in the dumps.
00:32:22
Speaker
No one's looking forward to playing Sheffield United right now, right? The season Alex Neal took over, that was quite late. When did he take over? It was quite late, wasn't it? Near Christmas, was it? And we were not doing great. And then suddenly, you know, the momentum, I don't think anything is lost at Christmas.
00:32:38
Speaker
no No, but I think with Alex Neal, I think we were like ninth, tenth, something like that. won't we I don't think he'll get that high. I don't think we'll i don't think if it if it was to plateau, which is the word you used, I don't think he'll get to Christmas because the the likelihood is that if we are winning one in three, which is sort of roughly our form at the moment,
00:33:02
Speaker
then and the likelihood is, or 1.2, whatever it is, and you know if if we're winning one in three roughly, one in one in four, one in three, and between now and let's say early December, the likelihood is that the Atanasios say that this is just this is form that yeah you you have had long enough now. You've had a couple of international, ah yeah in theory, Chris Coon comes back and and you know a couple of other people come back and you've you've had enough of a go.
00:33:29
Speaker
And and i don't think it I don't think Manning can even complain if if if that was the case. I just feel similar to you, Claire, there's been some there's been very fleeting moments and at times for some of them. And I'm, for example, I'm way less sold on Max than you two, but I think we've got some good players. And i appreciate that this squad as a whole doesn't feel like a neatly put together like It feels like a bit of a box of random Lego parts rather than like like a set with an with a set of instructions. And Manning's having to work out what the instructions are for what he's been bought. like He's been bought like an eBay box of Lego by napit Napa for Christmas. And he's now sat full of Christmas dinner trying to work out what on earth he does while people are chucking you know snowballs at the window putting him off. And there's also not that one player that...
00:34:19
Speaker
is on great form. That's, you know, exciting everyone. Like last year, Borja at this point was banging them in like left, right and center. You know, even if we weren't playing particularly well in every game, we had someone that was, was.
00:34:32
Speaker
Well, he was covering up the defensive for us, wasn't he? He did that for three months. Yeah, that could win you the game, even if you'd been shit for 99% of it. We just, we simply do not have that match-winning player. do think this um this number 10 thing, we called it out really early.
00:34:46
Speaker
and And it was, you know, it's been commented on by opposition and ah fans. It's been commented on by people who don't get to the ground very often or whatever. that you know Where's your 10? Who's your who's your source talk star star man?
00:35:01
Speaker
Positionally, he was really good, but he's not that creative type. Connor talked about how if you look at the if you look at the Manning and ah template that they were all looking at during the summer once we we recruited him,
00:35:18
Speaker
you know, what worked and where a lot of his wins came from is Bristol city. It was with wingbacks that we don't have. It was with, um, you know, three creative eights to choose from. We don't have any of those. I mean, Gibbs blessing, you know, he's a, he's a hard worker, but yeah I don't think he's got that creative spark in him. He's, he's's he's, he's, he's pure industry, isn't he? so is He's someone that if you put him next to an Emmy or if you put him next to a,
00:35:42
Speaker
I don't know, Wesley, if you put him next to a a star player, he probably could get up and down and do a skip style role if you really, really drilled him But the problem is with him in his fleeting appearances since the last couple of years, he's come on and had to do a six. Then he's come on and had to do an eight. Then he's come on and had to do a 10 because we've never had that other, the those other pieces like glued into place enough the that the manager or the head coach has been able to say to Liam, right, mate,
00:36:10
Speaker
the one bit that if you can get really good at this one thing, you can play every week. And he he's probably had to just be a complete all round midfielder rather than like master any one part his game. So Claire, do you actually think that there will be a change like in, in this, in this international window or even after Bristol city, if there's lots of booze and cat calls?
00:36:30
Speaker
I don't think they'll do it now. Um, I hope they don't do it now, but I don't i also don't think they'll do it now. Because, yeah, who's going to do it? If Napa does it, then he's saying, I've made another mistake. I can't pick managers. I'm rubbish too.
00:36:44
Speaker
i just can't see it yet. And i'm thinking like in the back of my mind, I'm thinking Bristol City, you know Manning's old club, somehow maybe that's the turning point. I don't know.
00:36:54
Speaker
um but yeah, I hope they don't. And I don't think they will. um I think. I think they give it another couple of games. if we if we not If we haven't won another game in, say, three, four games time, then then fair enough, I guess.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah. But um I hope that that's not the case. Yeah, I think Claire's bang on. I don't think they do it now. ah I mean, it's kind of a logical break point if you were going to do it, you know, in so much as you've now got two weeks to find your new person.
00:37:29
Speaker
But I don't ah don't think the dial has turned far enough for them quite yet. And I also think that the... the Americans being a little bit removed from it. Yeah, sure. You know, they'll be watching it all the time, you know, kind of in terms of social media, they'll be looking at it in terms of, you know, watching all the matches on a feed, but them not being there and them not feeling it, even if it turns against Bristol city, even if there is that vitriol, did I don't know, they might be largely unaffected. And,
00:37:57
Speaker
If Napa's making the recommendation, then I'm sorry, if you're Norfolk Holdings Group, you're just like, well, you know that that's your second guy, mate. you know yeah I'm sorry, but his time's up for you as well.
00:38:08
Speaker
um So it's a bit of a mess in that regard, isn't it? I think that's the kicker. I mean, the fact that make... i mean i i can make I can make a ah fag packet case for it's not all Manning's fault.
00:38:22
Speaker
and it's and it's and not And I don't look bad And I think you're right. um ah Me saying, like, let's get rid of him isn't attributing loads and loads of blame to Liam Manning per se. I just think, is he the right fit right now? you know yeah And that's not his fault.
00:38:35
Speaker
But if Napa's talking to Atanasia nearly every day, which is something Rob Butler said, um then ah if I can make that argument, then you you can imagine all of the stats and and spreadsheet. I bet he loves spreadsheets and like PowerPoints. You can imagine all the stuff that Napa is saying. This is why actually statistically we're doing this and we're doing that and we're doing the other, which based on any of the analysis that any of the local pundits have done, it must be very, very hard work for those data lads at Colony to try and you know, make a sozir, like, so make a purse out of that sozir. Like, everything seems to be terrible data-wise, but you can imagine he's making all those cases because otherwise, it like like you say, is I can't pick head coaches. You need to get rid of me too.
00:39:14
Speaker
So I think that's point. I want to just, let's elevate it though because you talked about the executives, right? You talked about... I mean, i a friend of ours, you know, Colo phoned into and BBC Radio Norfolk and I thought made a really, really good point around, i mean, lots of lots of good points.
00:39:33
Speaker
But one of them, he was saying about how many young forward slash inexperienced people we have in very, very senior positions at the football club at the moment. There isn't a McNally, which is what Colo said.
00:39:45
Speaker
You know, there isn't a Boquit. There isn't someone who's been around time in Mororium. Like, we you know he He threw out the name names like Rob Newman. yeah know Where are the people who have done it at other clubs? you know Bless Neil Adams, in bleeds yellow and green, but who who have other clubs seen success in a position with and gone, yes, please, you know they've done a great job and and maybe you know the merry-go-round goes around, new sporting directors, whatever, and they come up available.
00:40:14
Speaker
is it actually that the, that we, that it's above Manning where we need to get a new culture baked in because they've had their turn.
00:40:25
Speaker
The guys that are sitting in those seats at the moment, they make the most ridiculous PR decisions. So like we'll come on to the seat and we'll talk about the seating as we talk about the executives. Like,
00:40:38
Speaker
the i cannot I cannot understand what possessed them to put that announcement out about the changes to Carroll Road on, what was it, Thursday morning before a derby. That's pure madness. I think it was a Friday, wasn't it? was Friday.
00:40:59
Speaker
ah you Literally a record-breaking defeat and you're putting out something that is going to displace thousands of fans. And they were delighted to do so. What the fuck are they doing, punt?
00:41:10
Speaker
But, yeah well, yes, quite.
00:41:15
Speaker
So I think just to go back to the executive for a moment. That's what I'm talking about. This is on their watch. This is on their watch. And this is an executive that has presided over...
00:41:26
Speaker
what probably is getting on for record losses at the football club, you know, kind of, and this is a football club and I'm talking pre Norfolk Holdings, right? Cause all of the executive that were there, that, you know, that are there now are, you know, kind of were there before. this is a, this is a football club that I'm pretty sure Atanasio has, has kind of written off 60, 70, maybe 90 million pounds worth of debt.
00:41:49
Speaker
That is staggering that they've let a self-funding football club get into that position. Now, some of those are really bad football decisions. Some of those are just, you know, maybe they made massive assumptions based on Premier League revenues that that just then weren't forthcoming because, you know, we we put all of our um stock into Ashley Barnes and Shane Duffy getting us promoted again. you know kind of Maybe you you could kind of lay that at the footballing department's door.
00:42:13
Speaker
And there's always going to be a level of logic to that. But as you say, i mean, some of the PR gaffes that come out are just staggering. It's this, you know, if we're going to get into the most recent one and with the stadium, it's so detached from the fact that I feel really strongly ah football club is a community asset.
00:42:36
Speaker
You know, yeah, of look we're we're owned by, you know, kind of some Americans and fair play that they, You know, they make the right noises. They feel like they they want the football club to be steeped in the community.
00:42:46
Speaker
If you genuinely believe that, then you get your executives to do proper consultation on what is a seismic change at the football club for many, many supporters. There's some people who will just go, oh, well, that you know look, don't don't hold off progress. You know, kind of like, you know, you just don't like change. I don't think it's to do with that for me.
00:43:05
Speaker
Because I don't mind change in that regard, you know, kind of, and and I've seen a number of configurations um whilst I've been supporting Norwich. But actually, if you want people to come with you, if you, especially when it's crap, talk to them about it. Don't just go, here it is, this is what we're doing. You know, you've got six months to get used to it.
00:43:24
Speaker
Actually, you'd be renewing your season ticket in two or three months and, you know, just lump it. Because there will be families that have sat together for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, however long, you know, kind of,
00:43:35
Speaker
to you know maybe in a five or a six who might not be able to sit together any anymore at the football and that to me is properly heartbreaking now if you're running a football club you need to make difficult decisions it's just a bit like why not talk to people beforehand why not say here are our stated ambitions and You know, we want to make sure that the long term aim is that we redevelop the city stand. and You know, we increase the capacity, maximise revenues.
00:44:02
Speaker
But this is nothing more right now as it stands. This is nothing more than, you know, kind of actually maximising revenue. You can dress it up as, you know we're looking to improve the match day experience for our fans.
00:44:14
Speaker
They're not improving it for the 3,000 people that are moving seats, are they? that That, absolutely. and But also, you know what you're really trying to do is increase the amount of corporates that you can sell. That's all you're doing. That's what you're doing. utter So be upfront about that.
00:44:30
Speaker
Be upfront about that. Say, that's what we want to achieve. We'd like to talk to you as a supporter base. Here are a suite of options, because they must have considered a suite of options. Let's be frank. They haven't just gone, here's the solution, let's go for it.
00:44:42
Speaker
Here are a suite of options. Let's co-produce it. but As far as I'm concerned, mean, you know, We talk absolute nonsense on this pod, but there could be many, many fans out there who have a better idea than the football club.
00:44:53
Speaker
And I just think... the attitude stinks the place out around the way in which they've they've gone about this. Because as I say, the conclusion, you know if they'd have done the due diligence, the proper conversations, they'd have taken people with them, do you know what? That was still the outcome.
00:45:10
Speaker
If I was a – I wanted to put myself in the position of being in a season ticket holder in the River End. If I was a season ticket holder in the River End, but I'd been talked to and the decision had been properly explained – I'd have felt a lot better about it.
00:45:22
Speaker
ah you know And you know we that's not even getting into what it might do to the atmosphere because that's a whole other wider debate that we probably don't have time to talk about on this podcast. But is a it's a real shocker. And you know it's in, I mean, I think I said on the pod, I think we're entering into Norwich City's banter era and you know this is just another kind of you know piece of the puzzle that's being fitted into place.
00:45:46
Speaker
um It's a shocker. Claire, I think you're quite... Well, yeah I've sat in my seat in the Upper Barclay for 30 years with my family. um Man and boy.
00:46:00
Speaker
Yeah. No. um Girl and girl and girl and boy, actually. but m ah and But it's not just that I'm there with my family. We know all of the people that sit around us.
00:46:11
Speaker
And many of them have also sat there for nearly 30 years. Definitely a couple of two or three definitely have been there the whole time we have. And we're all friends and they're the people that we've shared all of the highs and lows of watching Norwich City with. They're the people we celebrate with. are the people we commiserate with, talk to throughout the game and, you know, swap ideas and everything. And also, so he's a bit moany, but you kind of put up with it. You know, they're our football family. The idea that someone...
00:46:39
Speaker
this week had just announced, delightedly announced that you've got to move. I physically felt sick because I just put myself in the Riverenders position thinking I would be absolutely distraught if someone said you've got to move your seats.
00:46:57
Speaker
I genuinely probably would have cried. And then to have found out by the announcement and not before that, and then then you're getting your email, I think is absolutely disgusting. I don't care what it's for. I don't care how much money it's been in. It's disgusting.
00:47:12
Speaker
Well, the thing is, it's not good. It's not good. It's... They must have done some numbers on because they love data at Colney and at Cow Road. and But they must have run some numbers that they're going to sell enough processed meat and fizzy alcohol and fermented sugary drinks. I think it's pure seats. I think they realise that they can sell more corporates or more premium experiences. They must have done the numbers.
00:47:38
Speaker
but well Exactly, but the the to supporter base is dwindling. From what I understand, there isn't a season ticket waiting list anymore. So I don't know where they're going to magic up these firms unless we get into the Premier League.
00:47:48
Speaker
But I presume that, that that i i like we heard about Norfolk Holdings investing in infrastructure. My concern around the the exec has been for a while how... and tone deaf the communications are um just going back months and months and months so it's the timing of it now i I've got and similar to you Punt I've got no issue with and I personally am reassured to hear that Norfolk Holdings want to invest in infrastructure.
00:48:19
Speaker
I think that's the right thing. I'm delighted that we can spend a bit cash in the transfer window because that's exciting and it it helps get to football season and it turns out some of them might have been duds. But, you know, that is an exciting part of being a football fan, signing players and we can compete a bit more in the transfer market. Great.
00:48:35
Speaker
You hijack deals, blah, blah, blah. But actually, yeah, we we do need better infrastructure because actually that is the things that that might help us stay in Premier League if we ever got there. and But I did exactly the same thing as you, Claire.
00:48:47
Speaker
and if If, you know, I i was a self-stander before going into where I am now, and and the the people that I was sat near up until a few years ago, and because people get old and can't come anymore, and it we'd have been devastated because, you know, there you were talking about people who have been going and stood, basically sitting where they stood when it was a stand.
00:49:12
Speaker
And and whole a whole group of people who, yeah, and ah completely hold my hands up and say, and I'm sure I was the most unpopular member of that cabal and that they would be over the moon if they were going to be physically moved away from me.
00:49:25
Speaker
But, you know, my old dad and Colin next to him and, you know, Malcolm to my right, who, you know, had political views left a bit to be desired, but salt of the earth and really looked forward to seeing him and shaking his hand every Saturday. And it was determined that we were going to lose 4-0 every week and almost, you know,
00:49:39
Speaker
ah had to get over himself every time he celebrated a goal, which he did, despite the fact he was sure we weren't ever going to score. That little like that, right? That is football. That's why we go. yeah Because we're not going to win trophies. We're not going to get into Europe more than once in 120 years, as has it's been proven.
00:49:57
Speaker
like you know that Those things come around so infrequently. The reasons we go is for the... The walk on the way, the people you see, the people you nod at, the people, you names you don't even know, but you've hugged them five times this season already.
00:50:09
Speaker
like that's That's why we go football. And you risk disrupting that for profit ah in a really haphazard. The designs look shit.
00:50:20
Speaker
like It looks like a bike shed. and It looks like they're like... They're like see-through perspex, like slanted roofs. That's going to have moss, lichen, bird shit. That's the point with some of this.
00:50:35
Speaker
Think about how nice perspex-y, like see-through bits of plastic are going to look in November. Yeah.
00:50:46
Speaker
The club, when they designed the Lion and Castle, which I think is an excellent... Yeah. ah you know, piece of business for the football club, right? You know kind of, it but actually was almost done in spite of the executive rather than because of the executive.
00:51:02
Speaker
um But when those initial designs were presented in front of, ah you know, kind of some supporters, it looked pretty average and pretty corporate. And, you know, some people will still argue that it it looks a bit corporate, but i I feel like it's a proper space now where where fans can enjoy, you know, kind of stuff post-match.
00:51:20
Speaker
And I agree with you, Tom. like I think you know what they've presented, again, you know oh look here's here's what you might like. No, no, no. But actually, just give us the parameters. Say what you're looking to achieve.
00:51:32
Speaker
And there's thousands of supporters who could have some really brilliant ideas about how to achieve that. it's just ah We've often talked around in the long-term knowledge WhatsApp groups,
00:51:45
Speaker
about the club having this kind of pervasive attitude of it being a parent-child relationship. Yeah. And that is what it feels like, you know, kind of nearly all of the time. It's like, oh, look, mummy and daddy are telling us what we can do now. Mummy and daddy are telling us how nice we're going to have it when we can buy fucking two pound, more two pound 80 bottles of water or, you know, kind of whatever we're going to be asked to stump up.
00:52:06
Speaker
Like, This, it's not about improving supporter experience. It's about making us buy more stuff because, you know, kind of maybe the the ground is a bit more pleasant to get to go to pre-match.
00:52:17
Speaker
And it's about shifting more premium seats. Be honest about that. But actually, if you really want to improve supporter spaces, talk to the supporters about it. And, you know, look, if if we wanted to parrot a club line, I'm sure they'd come out and go, oh, we talked to the official supporters panel, you kind of about all of this.
00:52:35
Speaker
And they did. Um, but again, you know, it was presented as this is happening, you know, rather than, you know, what this is happening. What do you think rather than this is what we're looking to achieve?
00:52:46
Speaker
What do you think? How can we, you know, how can we all go on the journey together? And it's been the attitude of the football club for years. So is it going to change? Probably not. Well, on that point, Punt, it was presented to the supporters panel who I've got big problems with how representative of the people who spend the money that they're after spending money at the football crot club are. I don't think it's representative panel.
00:53:07
Speaker
It's nowhere near big enough in terms of getting a broad range of certainly skill sets and kind of all the rest of it. and not not But there are some brilliant people on that panel. Oh, 100%. Brilliant people. i know like So it's like digging them out.
00:53:20
Speaker
not for term it's not Not at all. It's not improved by swapping any one of them for me. It's not improved by swapping any one of them for me. It improved they put Claire in there. But you know what I mean? just didn't want to say, just do the obvious thing and say it would be worse I'm going on. That was the first thing that came You're still a bit new Claire. She'll always be next to you so she'll always seem like the better option. you've got such a tiny subset of fans,
00:53:50
Speaker
when you've got such a tiny subset of fans um you're you're never going to get representation. The other problem is, to your point on it was um told to them, not welcome to them, they were told like the week before.
00:54:03
Speaker
So it's not a consultation if you've got a video made and note with a voiceover and all of that. But like if that's all but ready to go in the can, seven days after we'll ask the fans what they think.
00:54:15
Speaker
I think it was a little bit before that, wasn't it? I think there was a minuted panel meeting before that. I i don't know for sure. It's like a week and a half or something. I think the literature was all given to him then, but actually there was discussions but prior to that. But the but point is until you get it written down and you can see exactly what it is, like only then can you only then can you actually give your opinion on it.
00:54:35
Speaker
Like if if you're told in a minuted meeting there's going to be some improvements to the fan engagement, there's going to be more places for you to buy, we're going to extend the area at the back of the Barkley for fans to mill about after.
00:54:46
Speaker
Oh, yeah, lots of nods around the table. Yeah, great. I'm not sure they would have mentioned the additional premium seating or the 3000 people that, do know what I mean? If that like, Oh, there'll be a little bit of disruption, but we're going to minimize that in the most fan friendly way. You know exactly how it would have been mentioned because effectively you're just trying to get people to nod their heads. So you go yeah, we we can take the fan. We engage fans.
00:55:06
Speaker
And, and, and, and, you know, this one, this, know, we've got all these different people and they've got all these different backgrounds. So yeah, we've, we've covered the whole fan base. You know, it's just, it's nonsense. and And I am,
00:55:18
Speaker
again, ah not to sound like a broken record, none of that's Manning's fault. yeah And I think that Manning, no, but I think Manning, yeah part of the anger and vitriol against Manning on Sunday and and yeah obviously Sunday's the only game we've played since that announcement, but I think he is um he is basic basically that, again, knee-jerk, muscle memory reaction, cross-out football, get rid of manager. Yeah.
00:55:46
Speaker
And i i i I don't think he has done anywhere near enough wrong to lose his job. And I know i would like him to be more animated in in the and on the touchline. I would.
00:56:00
Speaker
Now, I accept that there are very... in you know inanimate object style managers who would get great results in Europe and beyond with with their teams by not ranting and raving and jumping up and down.
00:56:13
Speaker
you know Carlo Ancelotti might give you an eyebrow raise every now and again. you know There's plenty of managers who don't jump up and down and do knee slides, which I personally hate. and if That's too far. So I can put that aside.
00:56:24
Speaker
I actually think the incredibly mild mannered approach, which probably really riles some supporters, is maybe what we need. We need someone who is going to say things like, my son still loves me, my wife still loves me.
00:56:40
Speaker
That's a really good line. Actually, it's football, right? It's football. Wars are still happening. Famines are still happening. You know, people are still poorly. There's a lot of shit things in the world.
00:56:51
Speaker
Of course, I want us to win. Of course, I don't want that to be associated with that record of 16 years and I'm the one who lost it. Of course not. But I also didn't want Maxson to shit the bed. I didn't want Vlad to shit the bed, right? I didn't want um lots of I didn't want Topic to miss his chance, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:57:10
Speaker
It is what it is. and And I think there is to go right the way back to, you know, 50 odd minutes ago, Claire, I think Ange hit the nail on the head. I do. I, I, I desperately don't want us to be Watford. I don't want us to be ranges but pointing off fourth manager in 12 months.
00:57:25
Speaker
I don't want us to be, I want us to to be counterculture to that. I want us to to be a patient fan base who says, let's build up enough. I don't want to use data points because that's Napa's thing.
00:57:38
Speaker
But, know, i I suspect there might be enough data points to say, I'm not sure Napa, this is right for you. I've given you multiple windows and you've had some hits and some misses. And I think there's slightly more misses than hits, in my opinion, on the fact on what I've seen players wise.
00:57:54
Speaker
and But i'm not I'm not ready to say that Manning has had anything like enough of a fair swing for me. And there's plenty of people who know football better than me. And i you the I agree with you, Punt, that the decision might be taken out of sensible, logical, mature minds and hands if...
00:58:15
Speaker
if we lose three nil to Bristol city. at carry oh he's done He's done. He's absolutely done. Because it will be horrific. It will be people shouting outside the city he's stand. Now the, the world series finishes on Halloween.
00:58:28
Speaker
So, you know, but the you know, whether the brewers make it or not, obviously they might finish slightly sooner, but, um, if they, if the brewers go all the way, that will be all over wrapped up one way or another but by the end of October.
00:58:40
Speaker
I can easily see them saying, we're going to come over and spend some time in November in and around the place. um Just make sure you get at least a win and a draw in October to keep the wolf from the door.
00:58:54
Speaker
And then we can come in and get a real feel because we were told when in absentia by Manning and by Napa, that, the players have come in and seen me and they say they want Thorup out. You need to sack him today.
00:59:06
Speaker
I don't think they're going to want to sack a manager in a century again. I think, because I think it makes them look stupid and it makes them look like the tail's wagging the dog. And that actually, you know, they want to be able to say, look, we've, to your point, we've sunk a lot of cash.
00:59:21
Speaker
fixing some of the mistakes and some of the decisions that were made in absentia by this exec that yeah work for us. and They don't work for us, the fans, they work for Norfolk Holdings.
00:59:34
Speaker
um And we want to be in and around it and feel it. And actually they want to talk to Kenny and say, is this worse than it was under Thorup? Is it better? Is it the same? you know, what was it like under Farker? Cause Kenny was there and like, you know, asking people like Harry Darling, who's been in a few different setups in English football.
00:59:50
Speaker
And, and cause I think that, I think the Atanasius are savvy enough because they've seen it with, they've been around elite sports people like for years and years and years. I think they will speak to the people who have been around it a bit, know, bless like Schwartel doesn't know what it's like when a championship manager comes and goes, nor does, you know, Mattson, et cetera. But that we have got a few lads in there. Duffy,
01:00:10
Speaker
And like of course, Duffy's going to say Manning's terrible because he's dropped him. But I think they'd be able to probably cut through some of the, I'm not happy that I'm not playing to... yeah yeah Actually, he did raise a couple of points that you know we want to... They're incredibly astute individuals. I think that's what you're trying to say. yeah yeah And I don't think they're going to be happy for Napa to sack him without them being able to get in amongst it. So he has to avoid defeat with a good performance or win against Bristol City, or that that might become really difficult.
01:00:39
Speaker
But I can see a third option, which is if we do lose against Bristol City, um I can see the Atanasios coming out and having to speak and just saying, we are going to give him this X amount of time because otherwise it is just going to be, it's going to be protests during the game.
01:00:58
Speaker
it's It's not even him, it's them, isn't it? you know kind of like the the jury is out. we know We keep saying their fates are intertwined. I think if the Atanasios speak, it's almost like, yeah, we're we're giving this model ah go, you know, and and you know get behind us and and you know we will get under the bonnet in due course.
01:01:15
Speaker
But that is always the you know the inherent risk with you know having an ownership that doesn't live in this country. you know kind of They're not going to be as close to it, perhaps, as yeah as other owners. you know kind of and And look, I'm not going to do the whole be careful what you wish for because this there's no merit in that. And it was the right time for Delia and Michael to hand over the reins of the football club and they couldn't financially sustain it anymore.
01:01:37
Speaker
And there's an argument to say they couldn't in the first place. But you know we've had that conversation so many times on this podcast.
01:01:45
Speaker
they are detached from it. They are detached from it in a way that, you know, kind of we probably don't realise because, you know, we all know what it's like. we and We all knew what it was like when we were watching football during COVID, right?
01:01:56
Speaker
It didn't feel the same. yeah yeah And they won't have that that absolute link. mean, they haven't got it initially anyway, you know, because they're not supporters, but then they haven't got that, you know, kind of that bond with the football club that but perhaps, you know, kind of they might they need to develop and they need to develop it quite quickly.
01:02:14
Speaker
So, Claire, we are staring at an international break where Manning is going to have Sargent to work with at Colney. He's going to have... I mean, maybe he just spends every training session between now and the Bristol City game just saying, this guy, pass to this guy. Just walking just walking around Colney. We were saying this yesterday, though. We were saying this yesterday. Like, but what's changed from the first...
01:02:41
Speaker
six games were only scored in every game to now. But then was it just Josh literally doing all the hard work to get the ball and coming off his arse and everything? We weren't actually giving it to him. getting it. feel like we were playing balls around the corner better.
01:02:54
Speaker
i feel like we were... But there was a few that was fisting to his feet. But if you look at the goals, one's a pen, one is off his arse. I think the black one of the Blackburn goals, he's absolutely smashed into the top corner from 20 you know there's this He's made a lot of that stuff himself. you know And we've talked on this pod about him creating chances for himself ah as well.
01:03:14
Speaker
And, you know, that's only sustainable for so long, isn't it He can't do that for a 46-game season. So maybe, I don't know, maybe he is a little bit tired as well, but... I'm glad he's not gone anywhere for this. It's just obvious. do you think yeah Do you think, Claire, there is any chance that against Bristol City, we see a 4-4-2 with McCarma up alongside him and we just go, we've got to get the only way to...
01:03:36
Speaker
or A way to jumpstart involving him in the game more is we have someone right next to him and they can both win flick-ons. they're both like He's getting hustled by centre-backs. Let's give let's give the centre-backs one each to deal with. We're shit at playing through midfield with the current like formation, or not as not certainly not for a whole game.
01:03:55
Speaker
So maybe we just say that's that's what we do. What what do you reckon, Pumpkin? um It would worry me if, because you know there's there's lots of talk about you know kind of short-term, mid-term, long-term and you know getting processes right and getting behaviours right and you know whatever buzzwords that you know managers or sporting directors want to use.
01:04:15
Speaker
But if we are literally going, right, stick the lad who's six foot five up there and see if we can get flick-ons off the big big lad, then that's not sustainable longer term, is it? He's than that, though.
01:04:26
Speaker
Give him a... He is, but that's kind of Tom was going, you know, very... I know what you're saying. I'm oversimplifying it. you know I wasn't saying that the only thing we can do is play long balls to those two, but but but we're talking about him being isolated. But the optics might be around that. I think that's number 10. Stick Oscar in a number 10.
01:04:43
Speaker
Stick Oscar in a number 10 and go get in and around him. i think you I think it needs to be a more seismic change than that. I think he... My point about putting McCormick up... They're all putting Schwartow alongside him or whatever. The point is just going... Go and stand up there. Like, he's not isolated now. There's someone who's 10... If Chris Gordon was fit... Chris Gordon, can't say his name. Gordon.
01:05:03
Speaker
If he was fit and he if if he was back by Bristol City... Matthias, actually. Matthias, sorry. Matthias. Tell him to just, whatever you do, you should be within seven or eight yards of sergeant for the whole game when we don't havep whenever we have pull, go and stand within seven or eight yards and then that will automatically create gaps for us to play into. This is why we've got to be patient because he will come back. That's my point. He might be the man that we're currently missing.
01:05:31
Speaker
But also that also, if he's a pragmatist, then right like the the definition of pragmatism isn't he gets a tune out of everyone by game nine. or he he fight he he um Pragmatism isn't... No, but he finds a different way.
01:05:45
Speaker
yeah but he he has he don't I don't know we've really stumbled upon that yet. And he does feel like he's lurching from one thing to another. So many of those things have been caused by injuries. So many of those things have been caused by injuries and suspension. Torrup had loads of injuries. Torrup had loads of disciplinary issues. Yeah, and I didn't. And I think we were brilliant. And, you know, we fell off a cliff under Torrup.
01:06:04
Speaker
We fell off a cliff under Torrup as well. For the last 12, 13 games, we absolutely did. But if you look at the results ahead of that. That's longer than you're giving Manning. And after that, he'd had the whole year with the squad and picked some of the players.
01:06:16
Speaker
but it but it is the But players was the issue there. Players chucked it in. but and We can get into those individuals if we want to. yeah like if the players that the yeah You were particularly cross with the players getting rid of the manager. 100%. Get that. 100%. But it is on the coach to not lose the players. like That is the coach's responsibility. and if it looks And I think it's down to the sporting directors to probably push back and go, what the fuck you talking about? We're all in on him.
01:06:40
Speaker
Get on with it. Grow up. but you genuinely i think you know Maybe. But Napa didn't do that. doesn't have the balls to get it. he didn't. And we are where we are. And he might not have... and But again, i i I just think with almost any... Well, no, actually, from for my humble opinion, every knock on Manning, there is a counter-knock.
01:06:59
Speaker
like ah that There is a counter-argument. and And I'm not being... you know i am yeah i am far... i agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. far less lurking. I'm far more argue than you. I i am my up and down like a roller coaster. I'm horrific. Typically, yeah. But ah my my argument with Manning is is more, I just don't think he fits.
01:07:20
Speaker
and And I don't see it. So actually, you know, like rip rip the bandaid off and let's get on with it. Hard reset. Yeah. I don't know what better to see here. You just said, again, talk about everything has a counteroffer.
01:07:34
Speaker
I we replay the great John Punt on the 6th of October at quarter to 10. Careful what you wish for. like We do not know what comes next. Who is out of work?
01:07:47
Speaker
who who Who do we... Danny Roll. it Would Danny Roll be out of work if he was, and you know, there's plenty of places he could have gone. He interviewed at plenty of places and and and clubs, you would argue, with fewer resources than us turned him down.
01:08:05
Speaker
Did they? Who's turned him down? Didn't interview for like three or four roles and then ended up deciding he would then stay after all? I think he was in the running for Rangers and Southampton and then ultimately he wasn't successful. I mean, Rangers might take him now. I think there was a couple more as well.
01:08:19
Speaker
but the But the point is, if you do, I don't think they're to hire an English, and but so someone from the English leagues anytime soon. I think there is, no, I think you you do have to be careful you wish for. and And I personally, once you get to the point where I don't care who it is, any head coach must be better.
01:08:39
Speaker
I feel like until you get to that point, because either the players clearly aren't running for him anymore, or there's clearly something that, you know, it is 30 or 20 games in, 25 games in, and there aren't loads of injuries and suspensions and things that you can, yeah know, he's been able to pick most of the team you would say are his best players for a while.
01:08:58
Speaker
Until you get there, just think you, you Teams have bad runs of form in seasons. This is a bad
Home Winless Streak and Bristol City Preview
01:09:07
Speaker
run of form. It's not winless. We're not winless in five. We're winless at home in five, which is horrific for us. And again, I think, again, you we said this on the last pod, if you flip the way the form goes...
01:09:19
Speaker
you know narrowly losing 1-0 away to West Brom, having created most of the better chances than dominating possession, that's a brilliant away loss. though Again, it's not good enough. We want to win and we want to be in the top six. But I mean, I i i just don't know. I don't think there's enough to say it's all on him.
01:09:38
Speaker
and no no, no. And I agree. i absolutely agree that it's not all on God, he needs a performance against the Robins, doesn't he? He does. And we just have to hope that it's coming.
01:09:49
Speaker
So we're unlikely to pod again before them because unless there is an unexpected corner flag, which I think would have come today if it was going to come at all, um then it's probably going to be a case of heads down, working hard. And the first noises we hear out of the camp will be you know late next week as as we we build up in the presser to to to that Bristol City game.
Predictions for Bristol City Game
01:10:10
Speaker
um So therefore, I'm going to need your guarantees, Claire. What is the guaranteed score? and and a guaranteed scorer. Right. umve ah I've got to hope we're going to win because otherwise, what is the point?
01:10:27
Speaker
Well, we don't trade in hope. We trade in guarantee. So you're guaranteeing a win. one to Norwich. Yes. Yes. We're going to come back. It'll be 1-0 down and we're going to come back and we'll get 94th minute winner.
01:10:41
Speaker
it'll be Well, yeah, that that'll change the tone. was to say, amidst the boos. Amidst the boos. It'll be big Jove. He'll score both of them when he's playing up front with Josh.
01:10:56
Speaker
ah when he's Harry Darling's pumping it up to him 50 yards all game Harry Darling did nearly score on um Sunday when not predicted I but he did give away the third goal as well yes like West Brom he could have had action I predicted that one oh okay um ah punt guarantees please for the Bristol City game I always feel like, well, I say not all this doesn't always happen, but very often when Norwich enter the territory of, right, this is a big game, manager needs a result, and if he loses, you know, then this is, you know, ends up being a draw um just because it doesn't help anyone. So I kind of feel like it might be 1-1.
01:11:35
Speaker
Okay, I think we're going to win 4-0. With justsh Josh Sargent regaining his goal-scoring form. Josh Sargent, Hattrick and Jove just to score the fourth. love it. And man Manning just watched. They'll all be off flick-ons. Yeah. be brilliant. i don't know None of them will be flick-ons. There'll be ah a left-footed slot home under the keeper.
01:11:56
Speaker
and There'll be a header. after a near post Kenny McLean flick on. And then, yeah, and then a right foot volley from about 16 yards. And then, yeah, Joe, he goes, Joe, Joe then scores. That's the 94th minute. I agree. 94th minute Joe.
01:12:13
Speaker
i think I think if Sargent gets a hat-trick, he's probably substituted. I think he's probably wrapped up in Cocklemore. those those that were those that went to Carroll Road ready to boo from the start are sort of a bit confused because actually, you know, there's probably still some stuff we can moan about.
01:12:27
Speaker
um But actually, you know, that is sort of, that that is better and we can't necessarily say we want the manager to go after 4-0. That's what guaranteeing.
Advice for Fans: Enjoying Life Beyond Football
01:12:35
Speaker
This is the most specific guarantees you've ever offered, mate. Hold your boos. Yeah.
01:12:40
Speaker
Yeah, so... Good luck, everyone, getting through the next few days. Stay off social media if it affects you. If if you are able to be riled, if you are able to be upset, if your pulse can quicken, if your mood can be downturned by something that that shit down the road, one of them can post or say, just maybe look at something else, um maybe like like some different things so that your algorithm serves you you know some recipes or and some of those really satisfying like scrubbing carpet like carpets until they're clean, like i mean You can control your algo by like liking enough things.
01:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, power washing. yeah like Pick up a new hobby. ah Maybe take an extra walk. like You don't need to... Go outside and live your life. that long Exactly.
01:13:24
Speaker
It is only a game. I said it was only a game if we didn't win. We didn't win, and it does remain only a game. And...
01:13:33
Speaker
It's just simply, it's simply got to change against Bristol City. And it will. It will be 4-0. And ah we will all enjoy it. Mind how you go. Clip this up.