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00:00:01

Scorsese Part 2

S1 E12 · Triple Take Cinema

20 Plays27 days ago

Alex takes us on a journey to with three VERY DIFFERENT Martin Scorsese films.

Age of Innocence (1993) - 08:35
Bringing Out the Dead (1999) - 30:58
Silence (2016) - 49:14

Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.

We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.

There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.

Transcript

Introduction to Episode & Focus on Scorsese Part 2

00:00:01

Alex

Welcome to Triple Take Cinema. I am Alex, here as always with my two co-hosts, Dustin and Kyle.

Recap of Part 1 - Notable Films Discussed

00:00:09

Alex

And today we are talking Martin Scorsese Part 2.

00:00:14

Alex

In our Part 1, for a quick recap, we talked about Raging Bull.

00:00:21

Alex

I am blanking on the other two movies that we talked about.

00:00:24

Dustin Zick

It was Raging Bull, King of Comedy and Mean Streets.

00:00:25

Alex

It was eight years ago.

00:00:26

Brooklyn Brown

Cute comedy.

00:00:28

Alex

Yep, King of Comedy. and And Mean Streets was number three. How can I forget Mean Streets and King of Comedy?

Exploring Unique Genres in Scorsese's Films

00:00:35

Alex

Well, today we are getting a little bit into the 90s and 2000s because we are talking about the age of innocence from 93.

00:00:45

Alex

Bringing Out the Dead from 99, and Silence from 2016. And I wanted all six of these movies to be blind spots for me, but I picked these three because I wanted to try three kind of very distinct genres for Scorsese, Age of Innocence being more of a period piece, chamber drama, Bringing Out the Dead,

00:01:07

Alex

being kind of a drama-horror-comedy hybrid, and Silence being kind of a historical religious epic. And I definitely have thoughts on all three of these, but I would love to hear from you guys first, kind of what was your relationship with these three films, and I guess from a broader question, do you feel like you have a better handle on Scorsese as a filmmaker after watching these six movies?

Dustin's Initial Disconnect and Broadened Understanding

00:01:34

Alex

Dustin, what about you?

00:01:37

Dustin Zick

So I had heard of two of these. I had heard of Bringing Out the Dead, and I had heard of Silence. I had no concept that Age of Innocence existed, and had I seen a trailer for it or seen the cover art for it, I would never have thought it was Scorsese.

00:02:00

Dustin Zick

Um, so like just no connection to that whatsoever bringing out the dead was like kind of loosely on my radar is like something that I should watch because I like the cage and it seemed like kind of something up my alley and then silence I was like familiar with but I like i'm not religious and not a big fan of religion and so it kind of felt like something like I would have never watched it had it not been for this podcast I just had no interest in it and like that kind of story like we've talked in the past about how like Like Japanese Asian film is generally not something that I gravitate to on my own naturally unless it's maybe like

00:02:47

Dustin Zick

South Korean horror or something like that so and I know that silence isn't necessarily like it's not Japanese made like Scorsese made it but obviously it takes place in Japan and everything like that so yeah I would say like most familiar with bringing out the dead in silence but I hadn't I like barely even knew what bringing out the dead was about or anything and yeah But I would say like, yeah, I mean, I think this suite of three in particular definitely like shows a big range for Scorsese in my understanding of him as a a ah filmmaker.

00:03:21

Alex

All right.

00:03:26

Dustin Zick

It makes me kind of want to go back and like revisit like Hugo and a couple other kind of like odd ones out in his filmography. I'd seen and then obviously like kind of tick off the other stuff because now that list of what he's made that I haven't seen is getting even shorter Yeah, that's my thought. How about you, Kyle?

Kyle's Early Exposure and Realization about Scorsese

00:03:46

Brooklyn Brown

Uh, yeah, I, I had, I heard of all these movies except I think for age of innocence. but it has a title that just feels familiar. maybe because it's so, so period PC. and I actually had watched bringing out the dead when I was far too young. I remember a VHS of it.

00:04:08

Brooklyn Brown

So that gives you an indication. But I don't remember getting through it. And I also don't remember if I don't, I'm pretty sure I did not know it was a Scorsese when I watched it. And that also goes for silence. Alex, when you pick this, I didn't realize that I had already watched this movie quite quite a few years ago and also didn't know that it was Scorsese when I watched it. I'm not, I think I was probably drawn to the general thrust of the film to watch priests or watch people denounce their religion as like a when this movie we came out, I would have been like, oh yeah, that's interesting, like time period and

00:04:51

Brooklyn Brown

whatever, I don't think I knew it was Scorsese when I watched it. So when it came on, and Texas both of you like, oh, I have seen this movie. And then I was on the journey for a couple of viewings to try to watch that, watch that film with a little bit more intent. But yeah, do I feel like I have a better, I feel like I definitely have a better understanding, picture, portrait of who Scorsese is as a director.

Scorsese's Genre Exploration and Filmmaking Style

00:05:14

Brooklyn Brown

um I don't love it, I guess, the more I watch of his, i I'm torn, frankly, because it's clear that that Scorsese seems to like

00:05:26

Brooklyn Brown

but like a certain, he he gets interested in something and he makes a movie about it, or he gets interested in a genre and he wants to make a movie about it, or he wants to make a movie about something that kind of challenges him or pushes his boundaries a little bit. So in the one sense, I do appreciate having a little bit more of an understanding of that, and not just from Hugo, because there was this loose framework in my head of Scorsese does mobster movies, and then broke out and did a 3D Hugo and everyone was, you know, oh my goodness and watching Age of Innocence and watching Silence and the like like you said, Dustin, it does show the range. And it is, I respect the ambition as well to do such wide ranging types of movies and to work with a lot of different kinds of actors, frankly.

00:06:19

Brooklyn Brown

But ultimately I feel like some of that falls flat, but I still respect the ambition to try and push his own boundaries and also just kind of have fun seemingly, I guess, which is a lot what I got from, from you know, at least one of these movies was a lot of fun. So yeah, that's kind of my general take.

Recurring Themes in Scorsese's Films

00:06:39

Alex

Yeah, that kind of rings true with my experience too. I think there are times when Scorsese is more successful than others with playing with different genres. I i wish Age of Innocence has resonated resonated with me just a little bit more as someone who really likes period pieces and chamber dramas. And it just made me think doing these six movies about certain themes that he kind of returns to.

00:07:05

Alex

Catholic guilt being a big one. I'd say it probably appeared as an undercurrent or a strong theme in maybe 4 of 6, maybe 5 of 6. I don't think Rupert Pumpkin is a guy who feels guilty about much, but I think the others, you can make a case for there being the elements of of Catholic guilt.

00:07:25

Dustin Zick

i don't know i would disagree about silence no

00:07:28

Brooklyn Brown

There.

00:07:29

Alex

Definitely these three. And yeah, with with bringing out the dead, I had heard of it kind of mainly as a cage vehicle. And it was just one that I had wanted to check out my list as someone who is generally a big fan of Nicolas Cage performances, whether he's doing more subdued or more batshit crazy.

00:07:48

Dustin Zick

I don't know, I would disagree about silence.

00:07:50

Alex

I like that in this. We got a little bit of both.

00:07:52

Dustin Zick

No, I'm kidding.

00:07:53

Alex

With Age of Innocence, that was one that they had I had always kind of heard of as Scorsese trying the period piece chamber drama and and doing really well with it.

00:08:04

Alex

And with silence, I think like you, Kyle, I was attracted to the the subject matter. I think the scope of it really appealed to me as someone who does like kind of lush historical epics. And I remember the trailer for it just looks really, scenicly beautiful. I think Scorsese just a lot there that contrasts kind of the beauty of the natural world with the misery of human beings and kind of the misery we inflict on each other.

00:08:31

Alex

But we will get into that a little bit later. I would love to kick us off by talking Age of Innocence. We're going to go chronological as we want to do. So let's don our best top hats and overcoats and get into some 1870s high society New York.

Debate on Age of Innocence's Quality

00:08:49

Alex

Dustin and Kyle, what did you guys make of Age of Innocence?

00:08:53

Brooklyn Brown

uh really didn't like this movie really didn't like me yeah i know i i didn't i didn't love this movie i think just to just to yeah have have my own personal personal biases out there i'm not too interested in in period pieces in general but

00:08:53

Dustin Zick

Be-

00:08:57

Alex

I had a feeling. I had a feeling and I think I think i know why, but I go continue.

00:09:20

Brooklyn Brown

trying to to to to kind of put that aside. There's a couple of things. One is that it seemed like this movie, and frankly, this is something that I think is ah is ah as a part of a lot of period pieces. and makes makes it difficult for them to breathe, especially in a short timeframe, which is why some of the most successful period dramas or whatever that I have liked are long form shows or miniseres miniseries, So yeah, there's a lot of internal monologue in this story in general. And that's both like the voiceovers that exist, but then just

00:10:04

Brooklyn Brown

so much of it and Scorsese did try to get at that. He did try to get into that world with some of the camera work and some of the, just the way he gave some and some information and there are, like if I'm recollecting, there are two moments in this movie that I really liked that I thought were good One was the light on her, on on ah Michelle Pfeiffer's character, Countess Ellen. The light on her at the theater was exceptional in that one scene. That was like, that shone out, I mean, truly and literally and figuratively, right? like it That was like a big, I mean, that just brought my eyes in, that really focused my attention, that really, it just, that was awesome.

00:10:55

Brooklyn Brown

And that's where I could kind of notice like some true craft. Then the other one is the scene that that plays in Newland's mind when he's wishing Countess Ellen to come up behind him and touch him because no one's touching each other. because it's period piece. So it's all very you know held back. It's all unrequited in many in in in almost every scene. But other than that, it just seemed like there wasn't enough dialogue or enough chemistry as well. I felt like the chemistry between Michelle Pfeiffer and Daniel Day-Lewis just wasn't there for me. And frankly, it wasn't really there for for me with him and

00:11:34

Brooklyn Brown

May Wieland and Winona Ryder's character. So that I think was difficult. and i Maybe it's the expectations that Daniel Day Lewis has given to me over his career of just annihilating everything he sinks his teeth into, I have not seen my left foot and I need to. But yeah, i just was like things were just happening and I didn't feel that burning passion underneath.

00:11:58

Brooklyn Brown

And I didn't, I didn't, I just didn't get a lot from Michelle Pfeiffer's character. And then the kind of things that Scorsese tried to do outside of those two moments for me, like a little bit of fading in and out here and there, and a little bit of camera work, just didn't land. Those movements didn't land for me. And so i I kind of didn't feel like I got enough of the world of New York. And I didn't feel like I got enough from the characters. And i I don't really think the material itself lent

00:12:34

Brooklyn Brown

lentil gave a lot for Scorsese to work with. And so it was kind of the whole time I'm sitting there being like, why did they wanted him to do this genre? Why did he choose this one to like, do it, you know, and I think back to a portrait of a lady on fire that we watched, right? Like that is a period piece. But you can really and I mean, it's got a completely different tone and the characters and the whole thing, but like you can feel those characters passion in a lot of ways. And you can kind of feel the times more effectively in that type of presentation. And I just think it didn't really ever come to fruition, I guess, and and yet things marched on and, yeah, characters developed. and And I don't know, I just so there was nothing really other than those two shots, which I didn't really, really, really like. It just kind of fell flat for me. That's that's kind of my general take.

00:13:27

Dustin Zick

excellent yeah I feel like I can kind of agree with a lot of that.

00:13:28

Alex

Yeah, that's too much about you.

00:13:32

Dustin Zick

like I watched this with my wife because it was on her list of things to watch, and so I think that maybe led to me like enjoying it a little more than I would i would have probably on my own.

00:13:48

Dustin Zick

but generally like this is not my type of movie to begin with and I mean like the people are like completely unrelatable and I feel like the I mean you hit like a hundred percent Kyle like the the chemistry between him and Michelle Pfeiffer like wasn't great. not not that It wasn't actively bad, but it wasn't like it didn't convey like the supposed chemistry that their characters had, except for Sans, one or two key moments. But like I still feel like there was a lot of missed opportunity to show that chemistry and that relationship

00:14:31

Dustin Zick

to validate, you know, kind of the coda at the end of the story, right? Where he like kind of gave up that life and, you know, then his son when he was older brought him over to Europe and and wanted to arrange this meeting and stuff. And like that, the whole, you know, him deciding not to go up there or whatever, kind of fell flat for me because I'm like, well, I don't, I mean, like, was he really that obsessed with her? Because like,

00:14:59

Brooklyn Brown

that was yeah That was awful. he should have What are we doing?

00:15:01

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:15:02

Brooklyn Brown

We got all the way there.

00:15:03

Dustin Zick

Yeah, and and but just I mean like and it just kind of belied the the whole idea of like that he truly like threw away like the one love of his life because I'm like, I don't I didn't see it. I didn't see it. And I didn't see Yeah, like and we didn't get to see like moments of him regretting it or or second guessing it or anything like that and in Great comparison to portrait of a lady on fire because there's that great moment at the end right where she sees the painting being done of the that was done of the the woman that she was

00:15:44

Dustin Zick

commissioned to paint and fell, and I don't remember their character's names, but the painter sees the painting of the other woman and she's like holding that flower or whatever that was that symbol was for her. And like that chemistry and connection like lasted so much longer, and I felt like myself kind of wanting for that.

00:16:02

Dustin Zick

And then I didn't, i yeah, i there's just a lot that felt kind of like rough around the edges here in terms of like edit. There's one scene in particular where there was just like some, you know, the faces were editing and they were changing like the background or something. I feel like that happened. Like it it happened in like rapid succession. And I'm like, this just looks like somebody screwed up and it made it to print.

00:16:29

Dustin Zick

And yeah, just I don't know it was it was fine this definitely feels like one that's like Made for a certain type of person who like gives a shit about this kind of story and that generally it wasn't me I mean, I think that for me like some of the side characters were more interesting than the primary characters here like

00:16:56

Dustin Zick

Miriam Margolis, who played what was her character's name? Miss Mingot. She was great. Richard E. Grant was in here and he was like super young, which was kind of weird seeing him young.

00:17:09

Dustin Zick

The.

00:17:10

Alex

Yeah, I needed more Larry Lefferts.

00:17:12

Dustin Zick

Yes.

00:17:13

Alex

Great character, a great name. I liked the dimension he brought to this, but we didn't get enough of him.

00:17:16

Dustin Zick

Yeah, and then the other character in here that I i like seeing Jonathan Price as Riviere, the French guy, that was kind of like a random turn to see him playing a Frenchman. then I got, I have to call out Stuart Wilson, who played Julius Beaufort.

00:17:37

Dustin Zick

he's like I wish he's been in more stuff. He's an amazing like character actor. My first exposure to him was in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3, the one where they go to feudal Japan.

00:17:51

Dustin Zick

And he's like the the english guy like the the big baddie in that and he just like chews scenery like non-stop he was also in uh, a really great action movie in the early 90s with uh ray liotta called no escape where he played a villain in that and was phenomenal so I always get a kick when I see him pop up and stuff because I feel like he's like underappreciated as a really good character actor

00:17:56

Alex

Love that.

00:18:17

Dustin Zick

but yeah, I feel like I mean daniel de luz is always great and he was fine but it was kind of hard to understand like what the hell his motivations were a little bit too and like I don't know. I just feel like we were getting Flashes of these characters in their lives, but never really getting a good kind of lay of the land of like what they're emotionally feeling outside of these individual flashes and things like that and it just I don't even want to say it left me wanting more. It just left me like kind of wondering why in the same way that you described it, Kyle.

00:18:52

Brooklyn Brown

yeah and I mean, the wondering the wondering why as well. This is one of those things about... ahjamin This is a book, I assume.

00:19:01

Alex

It is adapted by a Pulitzer Prize winning novel by Edith Wharton.

00:19:01

Brooklyn Brown

Right? Yeah.

00:19:02

Dustin Zick

From the so that kind of explains it a little bit too.

00:19:06

Brooklyn Brown

Interesting. 1920, yeah. so it's it's It's interesting, I was actually talking to to my nephew recently about comparing two movies and why one was potentially saying more than the other one. And and it was because one was a character at a time and place. it It was modern and it wasn't tied to reality. And the other one was was a story of an artist's group that was in reality. It was straight out of Compton in Eight Miles, what we were talking about.

00:19:41

Brooklyn Brown

And I just would have loved if Scorsese was like, yeah I don't really care about this book. like What I want is this conversation that that these two characters should have. I mean, and they've had so many conversations and then they've lived their whole life. And it's like, that's the juice to me of this story is like him going in and it being uncomfortable, but like that yielding an awesome conversation between those two characters that kind of comes with the wisdom of time and life beyond this. so that was just so disappointing. And I didn't know what was going to happen because I haven't read this book, but that was just so disappointing. And and but was yeah before, i want um I want to hear your thoughts on everything, Alex, especially the the ending. I think it's maybe it's because of when I grew up and movies I saw, Michelle Pfeiffer in,

00:20:29

Brooklyn Brown

But Michelle Pfeiffer is a modern woman. I think she has a hard time pulling off that time period.

00:20:42

Brooklyn Brown

You know what I mean? like That's a ridiculous thing for me to say in a lot of ways, I admit that. And maybe it's just because I saw her in Gangster's Paradise and whatever.

00:20:52

Alex

I colored everything after that.

00:20:54

Brooklyn Brown

Of course, but like, she just has this very 90s sharp features type of look that for me, and again, I'm sure it's when I grew up, but like, it just, I don't know, I kept seeing her and I was like, you are out of place here.

00:21:08

Brooklyn Brown

Like Daniel Day-Lewis is not. and All the other characters, like, you can gussy them up to make them have all the pomp that that period requires, but like, Michelle Pfeiffer just always felt, yeah,

00:21:17

Dustin Zick

I would argue that I was just going to say, it I feel like that's, I would, that was my thing and and maybe not to me.

00:21:17

Alex

does that not Doesn't that kind of work for her character though? she's kind of She's kind of an iconoclast.

00:21:26

Brooklyn Brown

if there's chemistry if if there's chemistry it would have but it

00:21:29

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think. I fall in the mid-ground there. like I hear and agree with what you're saying, Kyle, but like alex like I think i think that that her character like that gets her a little leeway with her character, but she misses the other notes on it, so it doesn't ultimately net out, kind of ah is one way to put it. But that was something I thought about too. is like she's

00:21:53

Brooklyn Brown

if there's chemistry, if there's chemistry, it would have.

00:21:54

Dustin Zick

kind of rough around the edges for lack of a better term, but not even right that's not even that is really a bad term. She's just like kind of like an odd one out and that kind of works for her character but like again maybe not in the way that it's supposed to. Like she kind of feels almost like she's supposed to be like the Kathy Bates character in Titanic remember like Kathy Bates was Rose's mom's friend who was like American and like weren't well they were all American but like yeah and I feel like that was what her Michelle Pfeiffer's character was supposed to kind of be like and we got that a little bit but ultimately yeah I think some of that was

00:22:25

Brooklyn Brown

The unsinkable the unsinkable Molly Brown

00:22:40

Dustin Zick

Maybe her shortcomings as an actress. I don't know. I haven't I think I've only ever seen her in Batman 2 Batman Returns as Catwoman.

00:22:49

Alex

I mean, it's a strong performance, a memorable performance.

00:22:51

Dustin Zick

I can't honestly think of anything else.

00:22:53

Brooklyn Brown

I also loved that in my head, Dangerous Minds, the name of that movie is just Gangster Paradise because of the Coolio song. It's not at all. I was like sitting there being like, that's not right. Dangerous Minds.

00:23:05

Alex

Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I don't think this is going to be a mean street situation where I offer my full-throated rebuttal of why I love this. Like, I i wanted to love this, Justin. I am kind of that person that you outlined to, like, this is normally my jam. I love a literary adaptation. I love a period piece. And I wanted to think this was great, but i I ended up, like you guys, thinking it was kind of fine to good. And before I get into the things that trip me up,

00:23:35

Alex

I do want to talk about the craft and the things that I did appreciate. And to me, this felt like a Scorsese movie, and I liked those flourishes that he employed. I really loved the long tracking shot that we got in the beginning of that first party, where the camera is kind of right behind Newlands, following him into that party.

00:23:55

Alex

And then it kind of prowls around, and it doesn't stick close to the protagonist like it does in other Scorsese movies. It's not a good fella's shot where it stays so close to Henry Hill. I like how it prowls around all the rooms, and it's almost just soaking in the ambiance and the atmosphere. And I did love the atmosphere and the vibes of this movie, like costume design, set design, all just fantastic and lush and and wonderful.

00:24:23

Alex

And I really liked the screenplay here in a lot of moments. I liked the way that Scorsese and Screamwriter Jay Cox adapted the the novel where they really chose certain lines with with precision. And I love the the narration that we got from the narrator.

00:24:50

Alex

where we have that great line about Americans ah you know rushing to leave entertainment just as quickly as they arrive at it, or the way it characterizes Mrs. Mingus. They're just all all really great moments of writing. And I think as an adapted screenplay, it's strong in selecting those moments. But I think the characters really fell flat for me and their relationships fell flat.

00:25:17

Alex

and It was hard for me to get behind Newland Archer as a protagonist when he was really defined by kind of his indecision and his selfishness to me throughout the movie, where

00:25:32

Alex

Yeah, he just, he wants to have his cake and eat it, where he wants to be above this high society world, but he's also adhering so closely to its rules. And it was hard for me to empathize with someone who gets so many clear outs from May, with no other writer's character and to be like, you know, she basically like kind of confronts him on several occasions to be like, I know you have unrequited feelings for

00:25:50

Brooklyn Brown

So many.

00:25:59

Alex

for my cousin and he just vehemently denies it and kind of kind of digs his own grave and as good of an actor as Daniel Day-Lewis is and has nuanced performance he gives here I just couldn't get behind the character enough to really really care about that kind of central love triangle relationship that the whole movie hinges upon and with the final scene Kyle I I did think it was anticlimactic in a way that worked for the story. the For me, my take was that it was too painful to confront that chapter of his past and he kind of sensed his son as an emissary on his behalf because he's like, I can't even open this door again because of how much it like brings back into the life I could have lived and what I had to sacrifice. but

00:26:55

Alex

I think just making that narrative choice, even if it does work thematically, is so anticlimactic. It's kind of a womp womp of an ending in a way that I didn't find satisfying despite it having you know some thematic basis for it.

00:27:12

Dustin Zick

Now.

00:27:13

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, that's fair. i I feel like you didn't answer the question though. I'm going to bring it all the way back. I'm curious, did this movie... like do you Do you feel like you... I'm going to ask the Scorsese question. like that Do you feel like you got a lot more out of Scorsese with these viewings and like maybe maybe tied i don't know take it however you want? But I'm curious about your take on that after hearing what you thought about this movie.

00:27:36

Alex

Yeah, I mean, I do think I get a better handle on Scorsese. I i think like you, i I got the sense of him as someone who really dives into a work and kind of becomes obsessed with fleshing out that world and with like, you know, whether it's this or whether it's Silence and the 25 year quest, he went on to make that movie. You know, he really plunges himself head first. And i I admire that. And I think it takes us to interesting places. But yeah, i I wish there was more of a strong directorial stamp on this movie, even though I did just kind of praise those elements I liked with the tracking shot, with the the great cinematography and costume design and set design.

00:28:25

Alex

So this one feels like probably the hardest for me to reconcile with the rest of his work where it does feel like an outlier. Maybe that's because it's an adaptation. Maybe that's because it is a genre that he only works in, I believe, this one time.

00:28:41

Alex

You could kind of make a case for Gangs of New York taking place in a similar time period, but it's such a such a different scope and such a different genre.

00:28:48

Brooklyn Brown

yeah

00:28:48

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:28:49

Alex

They're not really comparable.

00:28:51

Dustin Zick

it is That is something I did think about with Daniel Day-Lewis in particular, being in both of those.

00:28:58

Dustin Zick

I mean, I guess yeah i guess they are pretty similar in time periods. it it was When I did think of it, it's like, what i thought of like just as an interesting thought experiment would be would daniel de luz's characters from both of those movies like did they coexist at the same time like just you know obviously the movies weren't taking place at exactly the same time but like oh like did those characters exist in the same universe that's kind of a weird thing to think about because it's two very different sides of new york city that we see so sorry to interrupt

00:29:13

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah. Hmm.

00:29:30

Alex

Yeah, so yeah, Kyle, I, you know, I, this is the one that I couldn't square with the rest of his filmography. And I know a lot of people really passionately, you know, love this movie and think it's one of his greatest. For me, it's probably the one I'm slightly more lukewarm on. And while movies like Raging Bull may have triggered a stronger, I guess, negative response in me because of how much I found the the central character in that frustrating, I would be much more eager to revisit that than I would be to revisit Age of Innocence.

00:30:06

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:30:09

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, for sure.

00:30:09

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I feel like any other of his movies that I've watched that I didn't love, like Main Streets or Raging Bull, I feel like I could probably ring more out of a revisit of those than I could with this.

00:30:19

Dustin Zick

I feel like I got everything I'm going to get out of this movie in one viewing for sure.

00:30:24

Alex

Yeah, one thing I did appreciate which I want to call out is he uses this cool technique where you have a character reading a letter and he's kind of showing them speaking directly at the camera as they're reading the letter and I was looking that up and Greta Gerwig apparently likes that so much.

00:30:32

Dustin Zick

Hmm.

00:30:41

Alex

She stole it for little women. I thought that was a nice little nice little directorial flourish that I wanted to see more of.

00:30:44

Brooklyn Brown

Little women, yeah.

00:30:50

Alex

Should we call a quorum on Age of Innocence and move on to Bringing Out the Dead.

00:30:55

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I said so. Let's do it.

00:30:56

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah.

00:30:57

Alex

Let's do it.

00:30:58

Dustin Zick

Fantastic fucking soundtrack. I love the soundtrack to this movie so much.

00:31:02

Alex

Yeah. Yeah, this one was pure Scorsese all the way. And i I love this movie. I will give a ah mini spoiler to our rankings at the end and say this is my favorite of the three. But I would love to hear, Dustin and Kyle, what you guys made of Bringing Out the Dead.

00:31:19

Dustin Zick

uh yeah i mean i just like this was a fun like dark fever dream of a movie in a way that like is pretty relentless but i feel like everybody in this movie is firing on all cylinders and that doesn't necessarily mean like with nick cage like for me when he's firing on all cylinders there's nuance to his performance and that kind of like seesaws in this movie from like the extreme like roided out Nick Cage kind of thing to like more melancholy and like that's what makes his character and performance so great in here but like everybody I feel like in the supporting cast is just like hitting it out of the park but I really want to give like a cut like this is a fantastic Tom Sizemore role like RIP like he plays fucking unhinged so well

00:32:17

Dustin Zick

and and just like kind of like scary like Dark characters and like I thought he was great in this I thought i'm a big fan of cliff kurtis who was like the drug dealer dude that got impaled on the wrought iron fence and he was great in this and yeah, I just feel like This was like it almost felt in a way like I was watching

00:32:33

Alex

Mmm.

00:32:43

Dustin Zick

a anthology movie with like two or three like shorter stories in a way that had like a connecting thread of being like Nick Cage and Patricia Arquette and her character and her dad kind of popping up again and again. But obviously it wasn't that but I just appreciated like these kind of like windows into that life and that experience and it's The the camera work I thought was so great like the whatever effect it is like the bokeh effect or however you pronounce that with like the lighting and the so the lights from the street lights and the headlights being kind of blurred and fuzzy and things like that like you kind of just felt like you were sitting next to Nick Cage and John Goodman or Ving Rhames in the like front seats of the ambulance and just like

00:33:38

Dustin Zick

taking in the insanity on the streets kind of a thing. So I sat down for this expecting it to be, to bother me how like knowing it was going to be like a stressful movie. I was expecting to feel more stressed than I actually was watching it. And I think that was because despite it being a very stressful movie, like I was able to kind of I think and it was a deliberate choice like the soundtrack and stuff kind of like counters it in a little bit with like music that is familiar and kind of good bops or whatever you like to sound old. So that kind of put me in a good mood with it and whatnot. And just like, yeah, it was like I want to call it fun because it's like deals with a lot of dark serious subject matter. But like it was I was constantly interested in seeing what was going to happen next. And like how he was going to

00:34:29

Dustin Zick

approach what happens next and all of that. so I love this. like This is one that I definitely feel like I'm going to go back to and watch again at some point.

00:34:38

Alex

Yeah. Oh, I totally feel comfortable calling this movie a blast, even though it's very heavy and deals with trauma and PTSD and burnout and, you know, the survivor's guilt, like heavy, heavy shit. But there's so much levity and lightness and great performances that it really, it really rounds it out. Kyle, what was your experience like with this one?

00:34:59

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, well watching this I definitely very quickly was like, oh yeah, I don't think I was ready for this when I was 19 or whenever I attempted to watch it. You know what I mean? like i don't that didn't have the yeah I don't know, frame of reference and and or had seen it seen enough happen in the world, I guess, maybe in 19 to just get anything out of this.

00:35:15

Alex

That's fair.

00:35:22

Brooklyn Brown

I also didn't have the same kind of, I don't know, 20 years from then until now and seeing that many Nick Cage movies and seeing all that stuff and what that character, what he can do with characters.

00:35:34

Brooklyn Brown

but It was interesting to, yeah, the movie really kept her in her toes. I think it it also, like I watched it in a very weird time for me where when I was growing up, my sister and mother would watch ER. r And that was not a movie, and not a movie. That was not a show that I was allowed to watch at the time. um um I will always remind my mother that if she had let me watch that movie, I would actually be a doctor and she's super fucked up.

00:36:03

Brooklyn Brown

I bring it up constantly. and and so and I say all that because I recently started watching The Pit, which is another emergency room drama, which is tremendous. I highly recommend it. I really enjoy it. But that movie, ER r to a lesser extent, because it's mostly about the doctor's fucking.

00:36:20

Brooklyn Brown

yeah it It hits on this tone that this movie really really hits on as well and in a very different way, but in a very effective way, which is that weird space between levity and darkness.

00:36:36

Brooklyn Brown

that you kind of have to ride if you're going to be in this world. you know If you're going to be an EMT, if you're going to be someone who does an ambulance, if you're going to be an emergency room doctor, like and and the the the strange constant hopefulness, but also matter-of-factness and then kind of bureaucratic aspect that goes into it, how the dude just wasn't going to fire him.

00:36:59

Brooklyn Brown

I thought that was incredible because it was both a joke and also very heartfelt when it was going down.

00:37:05

Alex

Right.

00:37:06

Brooklyn Brown

That encapsulates a lot of what this movie is. It's a joke and also very serious and very heartfelt. There's a couple of scenes that I just rewound in the movie when I was watching it, I was like, nah, we're just gonna stop rewind that.

00:37:21

Brooklyn Brown

The main one being that Ving Rhames scene where he's praying and they're there, I think they're giving him Narcan or whatever they're giving him to bring him back. And like that whole speech and like this willingness to have fun, especially with like Queen Latifah on the horn and the interplay there, I mean, Ving Rhames, that of,

00:37:41

Brooklyn Brown

of the episodes as you referenced Dustin, like that was my favorite of the episodes was the Bing-Rains episode.

00:37:45

Dustin Zick

no Yeah.

00:37:47

Alex

I think he was having the most fun between John Goodman, Bing Rhames, and Tom Sizemore.

00:37:48

Brooklyn Brown

my

00:37:52

Alex

Bing Rhames was having the ball with his performance.

00:37:55

Brooklyn Brown

Well, yeah. And and like to to watch a Nicholas Cage movie where he's not one of those characters, that he's kind of the central character that is definitely having a time and is a little all over the place and does some interesting stuff. But like all his, like Sizemore is unhinged, right? Like Ving Rhames is like kind of off his rocker, and but also, you know, in it. and And yeah, like it's very bizarre to watch a Nick Cage movie where everyone else seems to be a little bit more like, whoa.

00:38:23

Brooklyn Brown

and And so yeah I appreciate it and I appreciate the ride I want to watch it a few more times. it just kinda like it moved in a way as well like it just I was never I never felt the length I never I was always interested about what was happening next never really knew what was going to happen.

00:38:40

Brooklyn Brown

and Yeah really.

00:38:40

Alex

I was curious about that with you guys with like how kind of plotless this movie is. It reminded me a bit of Mean Streets in terms of like being kind of a series of vignettes that aren't really strung together by much of like an overarching plot. But like you were saying, Kyle, the momentum here is just so strong. It moves so quickly.

00:39:01

Alex

And maybe it's because you're in the ambulance, you're riding along, it's bisected into those three episodes, but I just never felt like there was not a microsecond of this where I felt like it dragged.

00:39:12

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:39:13

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, and I think part of that, and you know and when you're comparing it to Mean Streets, I think part of that is the time, right? like The time that exists in Mean Streets is so much longer, and this is just that one night really, maybe it's a little bit more than that.

00:39:22

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:39:26

Dustin Zick

I think it's like two nights.

00:39:28

Brooklyn Brown

Two nights? Yeah, which is, I guess, the fact that

00:39:28

Dustin Zick

Yeah, it's like a 48 hour shift, basically.

00:39:31

Brooklyn Brown

Okay, yeah, the fact that I don't really have a handle on that kind of speaks to us being put in that seat next to him.

00:39:36

Dustin Zick

Yeah, that's kind of, yeah.

00:39:37

Alex

Right.

00:39:38

Brooklyn Brown

And I liked, yeah, and I liked, you know, like there's, and like how there's also, because of the time, but because of this whole like, well, we got to do all this crazy stuff and save all these people's lives that maybe deserve it or maybe don't, and everyone's got a whole bunch of problems.

00:39:52

Brooklyn Brown

And then also like, yeah, we also got to get chicken, like we got to eat. You know what I mean?

00:39:55

Dustin Zick

me

00:39:55

Brooklyn Brown

Like, so this, this, and that's something I appreciate about, ah ah the move the the the The shows about doctors that do it well, that they can hit on that.

00:40:06

Brooklyn Brown

And I think the emergency aspect always brings brings that in, the kind of go-go-go nature of it. But yeah, it was just it was ah it was a lot of fun. It definitely felt like ah ah is another this is actually another one that is a book, right?

00:40:18

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

00:40:19

Brooklyn Brown

This is adapted from a book, I believe.

00:40:21

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I think the book the book came out.

00:40:22

Brooklyn Brown

but I'm pretty sure. I want to say I remember that at the end.

00:40:24

Alex

Oh wow.

00:40:26

Dustin Zick

Yeah, the the book came out the year before the movie.

00:40:26

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, so this is another one. so yeah, like it kind of just feels like, yeah, he, he read it and was like, this is, I'm just doing it, you know, and this is, this is a good time.

00:40:31

Alex

That's funny.

00:40:37

Brooklyn Brown

So yeah, really appreciated it. I don't think it had much to say really, but I don't think I care.

00:40:46

Dustin Zick

That's how Yeah, that's OK sometimes.

00:40:50

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah. It was just, it was fun, but also, yeah, it was, yeah, fun.

00:40:52

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:40:55

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:40:55

Brooklyn Brown

It was weird to say about what the contents of the movie are, but it was fun.

00:40:56

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:41:00

Dustin Zick

Yeah. it it I can't think of a better word. like it was It was a fascinating, like fun ride to be on that was buoyed by some like levity, but like dealing with a serious subject matter.

00:41:12

Dustin Zick

And like yeah, I feel like the fact that everybody Even Ving Rhames being Marcus in this like kind of crazy character, like I feel like everybody plays it straight.

00:41:25

Dustin Zick

Like that, you know, nobody's winking at the camera or anything.

00:41:26

Alex

Yeah.

00:41:28

Dustin Zick

And so like that keeps you grounded in it as you know, because I feel like it would lose. It wouldn't be the same to me if one person was clearly like, Hey, isn't this wild kind of a, you know, winking at the camera.

00:41:42

Dustin Zick

the fact that everybody's like on the level with it and and plays it straight. Just makes it feel more Yeah, I just felt like I was there and just kind of like on this ride and like it's like did I take an edible or something?

00:41:57

Dustin Zick

Cuz like I'm not I don't know what's coming up next but oh, okay. It's this it's that like um Yeah, and then damn that soundtrack just like

00:42:08

Dustin Zick

I've been listening to the soundtrack for the last like three days, just because like it's I love. I love music like that, that kind of like cross like some of it soundtracks for a movie where some of it is stuff that I recognize and then other things feel just kind of somewhat adjacent to it and whatnot. And despite Van Morrison being a piece of shit of a person, like I really like his music and so all of that stuff is ah ah fantastic in it.

00:42:37

Alex

Yeah, now Scorsese can pick an earworm for sure. And yeah, I mean, I forget which of you touched on the lighting, but that was something that immediately struck me about this movie with that very first shot that we get of just Cage's eyes, and you've got the flashing red of the the ambulance, like reflected in, you know, in that close up of his eyes. And I love how throughout the movie, the characters are kind of bathed in this sickly,

00:43:07

Alex

fluorescent glow where even if they're in outside spaces you feel like they're under like a hospital bed and it just puts you in this like you know it's got like an afterlife connection to it as well which I like but it really just puts you in the space of like you are in a hospital room you know regardless of whether you're on the streets you know getting intubated or in the in the cab of their ambulance like you are just you know it's It's life or death, and I think the visuals really communicate that. The one thing I will challenge that you said, Kyle, is i did I did get some deeper meaning out of this in a way I didn't expect to, where this felt really earnest and spiritual.

00:43:53

Alex

in a way that I i just appreciated and enjoyed. It wasn't something I came into the movie expecting or looking for, but even though it's a very simple arc, I found Frank Pierce coming to terms with failing to intubate Rose, the young woman who he lets die, and kind of is haunted by you know visions of her ghost, essentially, throughout the movie as he's mentally unraveling. I thought that was really well executed. hi I really like the line that he says about, like, you know, his job isn't even to save lives, it's to, like, bear witness. I thought that was, like, really nice and poignant. Yeah, I just think it, like, it touched on some deeper ideas about about death, about, like, being there when someone dies, that, yeah, that made an impact on me.

00:44:44

Alex

while being funny as as all hell. I love the scene where he's talking to his superior and he's like, and wish ah ah you know I wish I could fire you. My hands are tied. and you know Nicholas Cage loses it and just freaks the fuck out.

00:45:00

Alex

And it's it's just so many great comedy comedic moments like that.

00:45:02

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:45:05

Alex

I love Mark Anthony's performance as Knoll, the kind of strung out guy who's constantly dehydrated and just perpetually in the ER.

00:45:16

Alex

And even before he kind of has that tragic turn at the end where he becomes more explicitly a victim, that's just such a funny character. you know We've talked about Ving Rhames, but I really think John Goodman is great in this as well. He's always great, but he you know he brings kind of, like you were saying, a manic desperation to his character that counters nicely with how burnt-out and jaded Cage is.

00:45:44

Alex

And one thing that I kept thinking about Cade's performance is how well he sells just being fucking exhausted.

00:45:51

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:45:51

Alex

I have never seen someone look as tired in a movie as Cade's does here. I think it's probably a combination of makeup and acting, but just his eyes look so sunken and haggard the whole time.

00:46:02

Alex

And, yeah, I think there are so many great little moments like that. And yeah, just one last thought on the deeper meaning thing, but I think This movie plays a little bit differently, at least it did for me after after COVID, after the pandemic, when we all kind of experienced burnout collectively across the world. And so a movie that's explicitly about burnout and about that mental unraveling. I just think there's a lot of, yeah, poignance there that was nice to uncover along with the batshit crazy energy and the moments of of humor.

00:46:39

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, I think that that is a good challenge on the and doesn't have anything to say. think it's it's just maybe strikes me as that because it's not... I mean, Cage's Arc does have that recurring, the you know, rose recurring. So there there is something there. And then maybe those other little moments are just so kind of staccato in between, but that doesn't... Yeah, so maybe that's one of the reasons why it wasn't really sinking into me like that.

00:47:09

Brooklyn Brown

But yeah, the scene where he's like thirsty, shocking the dad again, and and he's talking to him from behind his eyes. And yeah, it does it does have have more to say, but it' yeah, it's more in, it's not in that big thematic way. It's just in these little moments ways that you kind of have to collect like breadcrumbs on the way. So yeah, no, that is a good challenge. I think you're right on that, Alex, for sure.

00:47:31

Dustin Zick

I do want to I agree with all that, and I do want to call out just since I like to call out the interesting character stuff and whatnot.

00:47:42

Dustin Zick

Well, two things. One, I realized I have seen more than just Batman Returns with Michelle Pfeiffer in it. I've seen Ant-Man and Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantimania and stuff, because she's in that.

00:47:53

Brooklyn Brown

Oh yeah.

00:47:56

Dustin Zick

But that's it. I haven't seen any other Michelle Pfeiffer movie, so The Age of Innocence was my non-superhero exposure to her, which is an issue.

00:48:22

Alex

That I can't believe we didn't talk about that because that is my favorite Scorsese cameo in any of these.

00:48:22

Dustin Zick

like, ah that's not Scorsese!

00:48:28

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:48:29

Alex

Just such a great, you know, blink and you miss it moment.

00:48:31

Dustin Zick

Yeah. And then his cameo in this one was he was the male dispatcher.

00:48:36

Alex

Here's the male dispatcher, yep.

00:48:38

Dustin Zick

which I thought was pretty great. But yeah, this was this was awesome. And Alex, I know when we got lunch today, like we were just saying, like I can't believe I've never seen this.

00:48:49

Dustin Zick

It's been 26 years, and this feels like so like this movie in particular is like right up my alley, and I can't believe it took me this long to see it.

00:48:56

Brooklyn Brown

no, no.

00:48:58

Alex

Yeah, this feels like kind of an underrated and Scorsese, or at least an under-exposed. It's one I really haven't heard people talk about a lot when they're talking about Hill's filmography.

00:49:09

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:49:10

Alex

So I'm glad that we were able to dig into it and give it a little bit of love here.

00:49:14

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Well, let's shift over to the the most depressing run here and talk about silence from 2016.

00:49:20

Brooklyn Brown

you

00:49:23

Alex

Yeah, absolutely. How long was this movie?

00:49:26

Brooklyn Brown

Two hours and 40 fucking minutes or something.

00:49:26

Alex

aye

00:49:29

Brooklyn Brown

it was It was long.

00:49:31

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:49:32

Alex

and And you feel it.

00:49:32

Brooklyn Brown

It was long.

00:49:33

Alex

and you know it's you know And I think you're meant to feel it.

00:49:34

Brooklyn Brown

Oh, every second.

00:49:37

Alex

You're meant to feel the suffering that the characters go through. But I guess I'll kick us off with this one and just tease that I i really enjoyed Silence. It's heavy themes and like kind of, you know, the suffering of its main characters aside, I i liked how visually lush and rich it was. I i love the camera work. i I think I knew I was going to like this movie when we get a very early shot where we're watching their boat with Adam Driver's Garupe and Andrew Garfield's father, Rodriguez, going over to Japan. And you've got this beautiful shot of the boat on the water. Then the camera pans up and you get like this gorgeous shot of the sky. And there are so many great just lots landscape moments like that in this movie that, you know, maybe just kind of, you know,

00:50:32

Alex

blank and be like, whoa, that is a beautiful image on my my screen right now. And even though there is kind of a one noteness to the suffering, where there's a certain way that the scenes in this movie play out where you can kind of tell how they're going to play out in the future, you know, once you know that Andrew Garfield's Rodriguez is going to resist renouncing his faith and, you know, kind of deny the the Japanese, and of course there's the you know the satisfaction that they're looking for. You know you're going to witness the the villagers kind of being being tortured in various ways, and finally at the end he does he does relent after

00:51:18

Alex

you know, maybe the two-third, three-quarter mark. But I still found all of those individual scenes totally compelling and gripping for the way that they were crafted. I think the scene where yeah the farmers are like strung up kind of basically on on crosses kind of out in the the high tide as the water is rising. I would put up there with one of Scorsese's best sequences just in terms of how it's filmed and constructed. So even though I did find it a little bit repetitive in terms of the you know the actual narrative being conveyed, I thought the craft was just so

00:52:00

Alex

you know untouchable here that I really i enjoyed this watch despite it being a brutal sit at the same time. But Dustin and Kyle, before I get into it more, what do you guys think of of Silence?

00:52:14

Brooklyn Brown

I definitely, as a reference as to why I would have watched this movie previously, just like a ah ah a lot of anti-religion in me.

00:52:26

Brooklyn Brown

i there's It is long. it's it's it's It's tough to watch, like you said, some of that continue to go on and continue to go on.

00:52:40

Brooklyn Brown

i but I, but I am, i I do kind of side not with the methodology and the just wanton killing of people. But I do side with the Japanese when it comes to like the the the things that are being battled on screen here, which is interesting.

00:52:58

Brooklyn Brown

From the beginning of it, with with those two stupid young priests being like, yeah, we're going in. We have to go in. We have to go. We got to go get our dude, and we got to help people be Catholics in Japan.

00:53:10

Brooklyn Brown

And I'm like, fuck off.

00:53:11

Alex

Just the fucking arrogance on display, like

00:53:13

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, just just, so there's a lot of like, there's a lot of, oh man, this sucks to watch and sucks to watch on the globe. But there's also this other aspect for me, it's just like, oh yeah, you're all you're getting what you deserve.

00:53:24

Brooklyn Brown

And it's really too bad you've brought all these people into this. And that sucks. And that, you know, like some of those conversations, and especially once the Inquisitor's character really comes to the screen and starts talking, a lot of those interactions are wonderful.

00:53:38

Brooklyn Brown

And I think really,

00:53:39

Alex

I agree.

00:53:40

Brooklyn Brown

really hit on a lot of like, what are you doing? Like, what is wrong with you? And then how they're learning how to be better at not just killing people or not just killing priests or not just like, you know, they're they're like learning how to try to cut this out of their of their nation. Yeah, I kind of liked all that in terms of just, you know, the the Catholics getting what they deserve for something to try to take over the world, which they were largely successful in for large periods of time.

00:54:09

Brooklyn Brown

And then and then i I really liked all the scenes where Andrew Garfield is really questioning the faith, where Rodriguez is really breaking down, especially that first time he breaks when they're all sitting there. And he's like, we're all gonna die. And all the, I mean, that was like, some of those those some of those moments were hard to are hard to navigate as an actor.

00:54:38

Brooklyn Brown

Obviously, it's their experience. But you know what I mean? I just thought that those those moments could be really hokey and could be really and it like they were they were handled very well by by him when he's actively questioning and kind of breaking down, but still trying to maintain.

00:54:44

Alex

No, totally.

00:54:54

Brooklyn Brown

and and then

00:54:55

Alex

He does a great job of taking you from like naiveté to, as you were saying, like breaking down to at the end, like resigning into that jaded cynicism of, you know, I renounced everything I believe in, now I must live this life until I'm an old man.

00:55:09

Alex

Like, great performance.

00:55:09

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, and then, yeah, and when Liam Neeson's character comes in and all of their interactions and all that he's trying to say to try to get him over this line and just make him realize, like, this is all stupid and made up, like, you just, all these, you know, like, was was great. And then an intense amount of anger at the final scene where he still has his faith when he's, you know, dead and dying and burnt or whatever, because they just, just, just,

00:55:38

Brooklyn Brown

so angry that after all of that and living in that world and seeing a whole different way of life that yeah I mean i'll call it what you will but like I'm just so angry when that that he has kept the faith that he has in my opinion learned nothing and maybe the Japanese have learned nothing as well but I don't know, it's just so it's deeply unsatisfying at the end, that final scene for me, although it does hit on the character, so I can't really, I don't know how I feel about it when it comes to the story.

00:56:09

Brooklyn Brown

I mean, it certainly feels justified, but yeah, and then really at the end of the day, I think my favorite little thing that happens throughout the whole thing is Kichiro. Kichiro just that constant.

00:56:19

Alex

He was my favorite character. I loved every time he popped up.

00:56:22

Brooklyn Brown

It's so good. Yeah, and it's just such a... I think without that character, it Andrew Garfield's like, it's such a ringing bell of...

00:56:37

Brooklyn Brown

the exact opposite of what he's trying to accomplish, but really teases, you know, when he's taking that confession again, and he's like, you can just tell he's like, God damn it, I don't want to do this. Like, fuck this guy. I yeah, all all of that. Oh, that was very good. It is it is just long. And it really puts you in it in a way that is very visceral and difficult at times. But I do think it And I think it's a movie that accomplishes its goal, I guess is really the the short way to say it. So I'll i'll leave it there and let let Dustin or or Alex talk.

00:57:09

Dustin Zick

and Yeah, I mean, I don't I found this movie to be I'm not boring but like deeply Uninteresting like like it's it's hard for me to feel like I'm not I'm not Christian. I'm not Catholic. I'm certainly not Catholic it's hard for me to like find empathy for Catholicism in this kind of circumstance and I mean I think that's part of like the message the film is trying to convey like how can it not be to some extent so I guess mission accomplished in that regard I mean I think the performances are all really strong and and

00:57:54

Dustin Zick

really well done and nuanced and I thought it was particularly interesting the the Inquisitor the I think I think I saw it right the actor who played the Inquisitor and I'm not going to try and pronounce his name is also a comedian and so I feel like that kind of shone through a little bit because his voice sounded kind of goofy and his responses were kind of like unhinged in a way sometimes and whatnot.

00:58:25

Alex

That Totally Tracks, that was going to be something I brought up as something I really appreciated, is how there's that tinge of comedy to the inquest there in new ways, performance, and how like it is kind of this broad comedy role where he's got he's got the goofy voice, he's got the exaggerated mannerisms, but I think it makes him more menacing as an antagonist.

00:58:46

Dustin Zick

Yeah, absolutely.

00:58:48

Alex

And Annie's genuinely funny and insightful. And I think there is, like you were alluding to, Kyle, philosophical depth to his depth, to his counter arguments to be like, you know, I love the story he tells about the like the mistresses representing the different different nations. And yeah, just a great little, you know, character that blends comedy and and villainy.

00:59:14

Dustin Zick

Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

00:59:18

Alex

It's an excellent question.

00:59:20

Brooklyn Brown

What is the Bechtel test?

00:59:22

Dustin Zick

It's the idea that it's it's it's like how, it's not, it's not a, mean let me pull up the definition of it.

00:59:25

Brooklyn Brown

The one.

00:59:32

Alex

My understanding, I'll let you read the official definition, is when there's two female characters who have a conversation not related to men.

00:59:32

Dustin Zick

because

00:59:39

Brooklyn Brown

They're always talking about a man.

00:59:41

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:59:41

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah.

00:59:43

Brooklyn Brown

Probably not.

00:59:43

Alex

Probably not, yeah.

00:59:44

Brooklyn Brown

and

00:59:46

Alex

I mean, I'm just looking at the Catholics here and there are really, in just thinking about the movie, there are not many female characters in this who have much of any presence beyond some of the villagers.

00:59:46

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:59:54

Dustin Zick

Yeah, and jet generally the idea is, and there's not like a hard and fast rule to what it is, but like it will pass the Bechdel test if it has at least two women characters who talk to each other about something other than a man.

01:00:10

Dustin Zick

But then you can kind of go a step further and be like well like for more than a minute or two or something like that.

01:00:16

Brooklyn Brown

Right.

01:00:17

Dustin Zick

And obviously there's there more, I mean, it's, i've had a lot of conversations about this with a group of friends that i watch movies with and like it's not there's more nuance to like female representation than can be conveyed through this test but it's a certainly ah i feel like it's a great question like a starting point kind of a thing uh to like establish something um and i the only reason i brought that up is because i was just thinking about how like it feels kind of rare to like watch a movie

01:00:49

Dustin Zick

where there is not like some sort of romance in some minor extent.

01:00:56

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah.

01:00:58

Dustin Zick

I mean, even think about the cane mutiny that we watched for the other episode and there was that like weird ass pointless romance in that.

01:01:06

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, they felt they couldn't even make that movie without just inserting something even though it didn't even make, yeah.

01:01:10

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:01:11

Alex

Yeah.

01:01:11

Brooklyn Brown

No, it is. It's a very, so it's a very sexless film.

01:01:13

Dustin Zick

Yeah, and like in in even just like or you know even a female You know ah ah even his wife when he is, you know kind of forced into to marriage at the end like We don't really we like the only interaction we see of him with his wife And I guess his kid is like him standing in front of them and not talking and them just staring at each other That was kind of interesting to me. I mean, I guess that was interesting to me in the context of her slipping the crucifix into his or the cross into his palm when he was in his coffin at the end because like the implication there is that then did she like I guess there's multiple ways to construe this but it's like oh did he did she know that he like

01:02:05

Dustin Zick

was secretly still a Catholic, or like did she just like you know like did he tell her, or did she just assume by nature of what happened to him kind of a thing and do that without conversation? We were never given any sort of context as to the nature of their relationship or anything like that.

01:02:25

Dustin Zick

yeah, I don't know. Like I feel like executionally this movie was great. Like visually it was gorgeous. Like that scene that you were talking about when they're on the crucifix and the water, the tides coming in, like that was brutal to watch, but like really well done. And like, I couldn't help but think about like, how did they film this kind of a thing? Like that must have been really difficult to act through.

01:02:50

Dustin Zick

but it's also just like it's just immensely like unsatisfying to watch because it's like A, like I don't have empathy for these characters. And then B, it's like, oh, this is just like, what a waste. Like what a waste of like so many people's existence to on on all sides of the coin to be persecuting this, but also be pursuing this. And, yeah, I don't know. Like Mike, I guess I am.

01:03:21

Dustin Zick

I'm struggling to even say if I'm like glad I watched it. I'm like, I'm glad I watched it so we could talk about it on the podcast. But like, I don't feel like I'm like, Oh yeah, like this is something I should have like, you know, seen once and and been done with like, I could have done without seeing this movie. So thanks for that, Alex.

01:03:38

Alex

You're very welcome. No, that is totally fair. And I think it's interesting is that I'm pretty aligned with you, Kyle, in that I did get a lot of satisfaction from kind of the philosophical things that this movie explores about just the insane fallacy of organized religion and of missionary work and of bringing organized religion, you know, and imposing it on a different country and different culture. And, you know, there are so many ways that the movie articulates this in its dialogue and in it's, you know, just different action scenes. but

01:04:17

Alex

I love the moment at the beginning where Rodriguez is noticing the farmers like really holding on to these little tokens meant to represent different axe vests of Christianity and he's like you know they're valuing these symbols more than the thing they represent like and there's kind of like an element of pagan worship that the the villagers are doing at that point because they're just kind of blindly like imitating the the trappings of religion without really understanding it. Or, you know, later on when he's talking with Liam Neeson's Ferrera and, you know, he's like the words that that you use and that these people understand have a totally different cultural meaning and context here. Like you can't, it's not transferable, not translatable. I just found all that very,

01:05:09

Alex

very rich and like well well acted dramatically. And yeah, as someone who is like very critical of organized religion, there was a certain catharsis as a viewer in seeing those arguments so so well laid out. And kind of interesting when thinking about just Scorsese as as a Catholic man, as a deeply religious guy, you know, for him to kind of interrogate his own, uh, faith in this way, you know, I think shows, shows some, some mental for the student guts, like the, the, uh, Rodriguez, like having the cross at the end and being like, oh no, he was kind of, he was, he still had the faith the whole time, you know, kind of leaves a bad taste in, in your mouth, but I can almost

01:06:00

Alex

you know, give Scorsese that one for just how self-eviscerating the criticism of Catholicism is throughout the rest of the movie.

01:06:10

Brooklyn Brown

yeah What's the, what is the thing you mentioned about a 25 year journey to get to this? what what's Give me some of the making of of this that that you're referencing there because that's, that's, it's always interesting when some filmmaker just can't let go of something and just keeps doing something, you know, because like you said, bring up the dead, right?

01:06:27

Brooklyn Brown

The book came out and a year later he made the movie and yeah.

01:06:29

Dustin Zick

Yeah, i if I recall correctly, it was it was interesting. So he first read the novel in 89 when he was actually invited by Kurosawa to Japan to play a role in one of Kurosawa's films. He played Vincent van Gogh. So then he snatched up, Scorsese snatched up this the film rights shortly thereafter.

01:06:55

Dustin Zick

And then kind of started developing it in 1990, but just different roadblocks and other commitments kind of came up and bumped into it until it finally made it into reality.

01:06:59

Alex

Thank you.

01:07:05

Brooklyn Brown

Hmm.

01:07:07

Alex

Yeah, no, that's perfect.

01:07:07

Brooklyn Brown

Hmm.

01:07:10

Alex

Yeah, I am kind of curious to to read the book that this is is based on. I do think that interests me enough to maybe pick it up at some point. I'll let you guys know if I do.

01:07:20

Alex

Have you guys seen any of Scorsese's other movies kind of in this vein of religious figures suffering through a crisis of faith?

01:07:31

Alex

I'm mainly thinking Last Temptation of Christ with Willem Dafoe, which I haven't seen.

01:07:33

Brooklyn Brown

That's temptation and crisis. I'm not actually.

01:07:35

Alex

that's probably that's That's another blind spot for me. I don't know if I'm as interested in that as I was in this, just because the scope of this, I think, felt more epic and more appealing, whereas I don't think I really need to see, ah ah you know, I haven't seen many movies about Christ, but it just doesn't really interest me as a non-Christian.

01:07:42

Dustin Zick

no

01:07:56

Alex

But I am more curious now after seeing just how he deals with faith in in this one.

01:08:04

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I haven't I haven't seen it either.

01:08:05

Brooklyn Brown

know.

01:08:08

Brooklyn Brown

Interesting.

01:08:08

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:08:08

Alex

There's another one he did called Condon about the Dalai Lama, and apparently that was kind of a bomb, but another interesting, like, one to round out that trio.

01:08:24

Dustin Zick

Yeah, that feels kind of like a trio that, yeah, I have no interest in visiting kind of the thing.

01:08:24

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah.

01:08:30

Alex

Yeah, no, I was just thinking, like, what blind spots do I have left for Scorsese, and I think Casino is a big one for me. Haven't seen that.

01:08:39

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:08:41

Alex

Gangs of New York. I have only seen bits and pieces. I have never like sat down and watched from beginning to end.

01:08:43

Dustin Zick

Oh, really?

01:08:44

Brooklyn Brown

Oh, man.

01:08:46

Dustin Zick

You know, I rewatch that.

01:08:47

Brooklyn Brown

I couldn't watch that instead of Age of Innocents.

01:08:49

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I rewatch Kings of New York recently and I still, I have a big soft spot for it, but like, I don't think it's as good as I feel like I thought it was when I first saw it.

01:09:00

Dustin Zick

Like, but I think, I mean, I do think it's one of Daniel Day-Lewis's best performances.

01:09:03

Brooklyn Brown

Oh, yeah.

01:09:06

Dustin Zick

He's phenomenal in it.

01:09:08

Brooklyn Brown

I think without Daniel Day-Lewis and and Gangs New York, it might struggle a little bit to to to hold itself up.

01:09:14

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:09:16

Brooklyn Brown

But it doesn't matter because he's in it. So if I can hold the shit out of it. And Leonardo DiCaprio is very good in it as well.

01:09:22

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:09:22

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, there are some weird choices. I really want you to watch that movie out.

01:09:25

Dustin Zick

Yeah, Cameron Diaz kind of reminds me of like Michelle Pfeiffer in the same way of like somebody who isn't necessarily the best at capturing that era in a way.

01:09:25

Alex

i'm I'm excited for it.

01:09:34

Dustin Zick

I think she's better than Michelle Pfeiffer at it, but yeah.

01:09:37

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, I see what you mean, though. I do see what you mean there.

01:09:38

Dustin Zick

i Casino, if I had to pick, theyre like looking at his cinematography, blind spots that I want to clear out are the Aviator, Casino, Cape Fear, and The Color of Money.

01:09:55

Alex

Tape fear is really fun.

01:09:55

Brooklyn Brown

Oh, we haven't seen the color of money?

01:09:57

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:09:58

Alex

I also have not seen the color of money.

01:09:58

Brooklyn Brown

Oh, man. Have you have you seen have you guys seen the hustler?

01:10:02

Dustin Zick

No, but yeah.

01:10:04

Alex

No, sir.

01:10:05

Brooklyn Brown

well right i got all right

01:10:08

Dustin Zick

You're going to do, you know, you know what?

01:10:09

Brooklyn Brown

well Now see, now I'm going to change my whole plan up. Now you're going to make me change my whole plan.

01:10:16

Alex

That's what we do, keeping the interest in.

01:10:16

Dustin Zick

i mean

01:10:17

Brooklyn Brown

We'll give it a little break because I do want to i do want to watch the movies that I that i picked out, but I've already watched one, so we're going to roll with that. but but that's c because The verdict really made me want to do more Newman.

01:10:28

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:10:28

Brooklyn Brown

and If neither of you have seen The Color of Money or The Hustler, that is

01:10:31

Dustin Zick

Those would be your new man right there.

01:10:33

Alex

Mhmm.

01:10:34

Brooklyn Brown

They would be, and I will say the Hustler, and and as I have previously said on this on this podcast, I struggle with old movies.

01:10:43

Dustin Zick

Uh huh.

01:10:44

Brooklyn Brown

The Hustler is one that I saw. i I'm very jealous of what the theater you have in Milwaukee that you keep referencing. there is a theater in Rochester called the Dryden, which is the the movie theater that is inside George Eastman's mansion.

01:11:01

Dustin Zick

Okay.

01:11:02

Brooklyn Brown

And they have turned it into like an old theater and that's where like the the actual films are stored at the Eastman Museum and so they have they're they They're playing movies that you just don't often get to see especially not in like that form and that film and the whole whatever and so the hustlers one that I saw in in this in this theater a long long long time ago with my dad and And I didn't even realize, like i my dad likes old stuff, and so I don't think he even realized that the color of money was like a part of that kind of timeline.

01:11:39

Brooklyn Brown

it's But anyway, we are gonna be doing a little Paul Newman rip, and I'm probably gonna toss in road to perdition just to make it all all make sense for me, because I think thank you neither of you has seen that.

01:11:50

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:11:51

Alex

I like the sound of that.

01:11:52

Brooklyn Brown

So yeah, it's not my next three, but that is my next three after that.

01:11:53

Dustin Zick

All right.

01:11:56

Brooklyn Brown

so

01:11:57

Alex

A little preview of things to come. Shall we get into our rankings for for these three movies?

01:11:59

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah.

01:12:05

Dustin Zick

Yeah, let's do it.

01:12:06

Alex

Yeah, I can kick us off and say that Age of Innocence is sadly at the bottom for me here at number three.

01:12:14

Alex

Silence coming in at number two and Bringing Up the Dead coming in strong at number one. I would definitely be excited to rewatch Bring It Up The Dead. I wouldn't be excited to rewatch Silence, but I would like to at some point. Age of Innocence, I think I'm good with the one viewing. What about you guys?

01:12:33

Dustin Zick

I'll say, yeah, one I'm not the same.

01:12:33

Brooklyn Brown

Same.

01:12:36

Dustin Zick

i'll you know Breaking out the debt is number one. I would say, It's kind of a tie between the other two, but I would have to say Age of Innocence is number two, just because I feel like Silence is just so like brutal and depressing and like ah ah just uninteresting to me. that like i don't I don't really want to rewatch either of those, but if I had to make a choice, I would probably rewatch Age of Innocence. But I won't, because nobody's going to make me make that choice.

01:13:07

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, for for me, it's like the between, because Brain of the Dead is number one. But the agent, you know what's two and what's three between Age of Innocence and Silence is that if someone was like, hey, should I watch Age of Innocence?

01:13:19

Brooklyn Brown

I'd be like, absolutely not.

01:13:20

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:13:20

Brooklyn Brown

Do not. There's so many other sources of saving movies to watch that I think are better. So I would i would actively tell people to not watch it. um And Silence, I'd be like, it's a lot.

01:13:31

Brooklyn Brown

But there's there's that you know what I mean?

01:13:32

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:13:33

Brooklyn Brown

So like that really is the, yeah.

01:13:34

Alex

There's good stuff there, yeah.

01:13:34

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:13:35

Dustin Zick

I guess maybe that is enough to kind of switch me over, like I could, yeah.

01:13:38

Brooklyn Brown

but But you also just like, and we've not told people this, you just came out of silence and it's not like a, it'd be the kind of movie that I watched all the credits for because I'm just like, yeah, yeah, like if I saw it in theater, you just kind of, I cannot dude.

01:13:43

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:13:50

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:13:52

Alex

You just kind of sunk in your sunk in your seat for a little bit.

01:13:53

Dustin Zick

God, can you imagine going to the theater to see that? That would be miserable.

01:13:58

Brooklyn Brown

I really can't that would be one that'd be tricky because also like you know as we mentioned in bringing out the dead and in many of his movies it's it was interesting that two of these movies really don't have a classic Scorsese move which is the use of incredible songs.

01:13:59

Dustin Zick

No, thanks.

01:14:14

Dustin Zick

Yeah, true.

01:14:15

Alex

Sure.

01:14:15

Brooklyn Brown

right like Age of innocence and silence, silence does and't there's nothing.

01:14:16

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:14:19

Brooklyn Brown

you know i mean There's none of that.

01:14:20

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:14:21

Brooklyn Brown

and Then you really see it in Bring Out the Dead and how it can how how he likes to use it. and Obviously, he's used it in in many other movies to to to very very, very effectively.

01:14:33

Brooklyn Brown

and so yeah It was interesting to watch two movies with this director that's kind of known for that in a lot of ways, to me anyway, and it just not yeah be present.

01:14:38

Alex

Right. You're kind of taking away his superpower. And being like, Hey, how do you, how do you work without this one thing that you're really good at?

01:14:42

Brooklyn Brown

A little bit.

01:14:47

Alex

I will say the sound design in silence, I thought was top notch.

01:14:51

Dustin Zick

Yeah, it was.

01:14:51

Alex

Like it really puts you in the mood with all the crickets and just, you know, it's not pleasant, but the people screaming, like, you know, it's all very raw and authentic.

01:14:52

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, yeah.

01:14:59

Alex

And I think for back of a leather word, the, you know, the empty space, that he fills with those sounds like it's just very immersive.

01:15:08

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah.

01:15:09

Brooklyn Brown

some that Some of that torture is so procedural that it's like, it makes it even worse. That it's just so, you know, like,

01:15:18

Dustin Zick

yeah

01:15:20

Brooklyn Brown

There's no, and there's no shots of it where they're really, you know, I don't know, like, like you would see in a movie like a hostile, where, where like, there's no shots at where it's like, yeah, I mean, I'm thinking, especially the scene where they push those people off the boat, they tie them up in the, you know, and then they push them off the boat and then they just kind of like plunge them down.

01:15:28

Dustin Zick

Yeah, no, not for a dramatic. and

01:15:36

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:15:41

Brooklyn Brown

And it's like, you're far away from it and you just have to watch it happen from the shore and it, and no one involved seems to like, be caring, it's just happening, and so many of those torture scenes are happening like that, and which is like a very unsettling way to experience those things.

01:15:52

Alex

Right.

01:16:02

Brooklyn Brown

When it's all heightened and there's a lot of sound, and there's a lot of like it it kind of like makes the moment. like a Zero Dark Thirty. You know what I mean? like that There's a closeness there with some of that torture, and and and part of that movie is about those people struggling with executing the torture, and you just get none of that from the Japanese.

01:16:23

Brooklyn Brown

like None.

01:16:23

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:16:24

Alex

Yeah, even even the beheading, which is the most like conventionally cinematic thing, is just done so matter-of-factly.

01:16:24

Brooklyn Brown

like i don't know especially when like like

01:16:32

Brooklyn Brown

Yeah, it's crazy. And so that's all, it's all very effective. is All these little moments are reasons why that i i I haven't put this above Age of Innocence. It's just because there's just nothing in Age of Innocence that I'm like, other than those two little things, that I'm like, whoa, man, that was that's just, you know, like bringing up the dead puts you there.

01:16:49

Brooklyn Brown

Silence puts you there. Age of Innocence, you're just, I don't know, you're not, I'm not there, so.

01:16:54

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess that will we'll end on that punctuation.

01:16:58

Brooklyn Brown

Age of being guilty.

01:17:02

Brooklyn Brown

Sucking.

01:17:05

Dustin Zick

And we'll we'll see or well you'll hear. I guess we don't see or hear our audience, so they'll hear us next time.

01:17:14

Alex

You will hear us next time.

01:17:14

Brooklyn Brown

maybe They may see us too if you if you open up your phone and you're surprised.

01:17:16

Dustin Zick

but That's true. Thanks for listening, everyone.

01:17:19

Alex

We're here.