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Courtroom Dramas
25 Plays1 month ago
Dustin leads this episode’s picks with a focus on courtroom dramas, spurred by a viewing of Client Eastwood’s Juror #2.
- Juror #2 (2024) - 00:03:14
- The Verdict (1982) - 00:29:02
- The Caine Mutiny (1954) - 00:50:29
Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.
We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.
There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Episode's Theme
00:00:01
Dustin Zick
Welcome to another episode of Triple Take Cinema. You've got your three regular dudes here, regular bros, just brought it up. It's another bro cast. You've got me, Dustin. You've got Kyle. You've got Alex. And that's it. You know, each week, we one of us picks some sort of theme. be a director, could be an actor, could be, I don't know, a studio, could be a color, could be a sound effect, could be a poem.
Hosts' Familiarity with Courtroom Dramas
00:00:30
Dustin Zick
whatever it is that ties three movies together and then we pick three that are under that theme and assign it to the group and we watch them and then we talk about them and dissect them and I had the privilege of picking three films for this week's episode and I picked courtroom dramas and so the three movies that I landed on were The Cane Mutiny from 1954 the verdict from 1982 and a brand new one of the 2024 varietal Clint Eastwood's latest juror number two I Have never seen any of these I think I mean I knew juror number two was in development kind of a thing I think I'd heard of the verdict I had never
00:01:20
Dustin Zick
heard or seen The Cane Mutiny, and we'll get into a little bit of like why that was on my radar, but I had never like but had no familiarity with the original film.
Reflecting on Comedic vs. Dramatic Courtroom Films
00:01:31
Dustin Zick
Kyle, how about you?
00:01:33
Brooklyn Brown
Nothing, blanks.
00:01:34
Dustin Zick
Familiarity with these movies.
00:01:36
Brooklyn Brown
I knew of the cane mutiny, but i didn't i did not the verdict wasn't on my radar at all. And journey number two was something I'd seen on the Netflix or whatever.
00:01:47
Brooklyn Brown
Was it on Netflix? Whatever Street Knees service we were watching on, had seen it come up and was intrigued.
00:01:53
Brooklyn Brown
Max, Max. No, Max and Easton.
00:01:56
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:01:58
Brooklyn Brown
whatever they're going to call it next month. but But yeah, so I was 0 for 3 on these, which is wonderful.
00:02:01
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:02:04
Brooklyn Brown
Alex, what about you?
00:02:05
Alex
Yeah, these were three blind spots for me, and I was thinking just about my relationship to courtroom dramas in general, and I think it's funny that I haven't seen some of the heavy hitters. I have seen, 12 Angry Men, uh, you know, some parallels with jury number two we can get into, but I feel like there are a lot of comedic courtroom movies that aren't quite dramas but did make an impact on me growing up.
00:02:32
Alex
Like I'm thinking Adam Sandler's Big Daddy has like that big climax in the courtroom.
00:02:37
Dustin Zick
I wouldn't have even thought of that as one, honestly. I was thinking you were going to say li or liar, liar.
00:02:42
Alex
Yeah well Liar Liar's the other one and Legally Blonde is the third one.
00:02:45
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:02:45
Alex
I feel like in the in the 90s we were big on comedies where the third act feel good climax took place in the courtroom. But yeah, a lot of these like older courtroom dramas and more recent ones, like during number two, were kind of newer to me. So I'm excited to talk about this very interesting sub-genre of movies.
Reactions to Clint Eastwood's Juror #2
00:03:04
Dustin Zick
yeah but I'm going to go kind of against our traditional grain here and have us talk about these in reverse chronological order. didn't assign like a watch order for them or anything, but like my origination of this theme was that Over the holiday, we're recording this yeah mid early January and over that the holidays, my wife and I watched journey number two. And then that kind of triggered like I really wanted to talk about it with you guys. And then I was like, OK, I can do courtroom movies. And then I was kind of like going through and trying to find things that I hadn't seen and was maybe.
00:03:40
Dustin Zick
Ancillary familiar with and like I had said before the verdict was something I'd heard of I'm the Paul Newman fan. I need to digest more of his stuff then the cane mutiny once we get to that we can talk a little more about How I was aware of it and and where that more recent awareness came from let's start with your number two So this is Clint Eastwood's newest. I think Clint Eastwood is like 93 now. It's probably going to be his last movie I've seen a number of his films, and while I don't enjoy the man's political stances, I do enjoy the man's directing chops and largely enjoy a lot of his
00:04:21
Dustin Zick
uh directorial actions and and things like that and I like the cast here like everything about this movie screamed like this is gonna be something I enjoy and I would say for me I enjoyed 80 to 90 percent of this movie like watching it through and it was the last like 10 not even the full third act but like the last 10 to 15 percent of the movie that like completely ruined it for me and not because I like Spoiler alert you know it ends on a bit of a cliffhanger kind of a thing not even because of that like I'm fine with that like that that storytelling it's kind of I don't want to call it lazy storytelling but it's very much a choice to like and in the way this movie did and that's not even what killed me.
00:05:08
Dustin Zick
But I don't want to get into that quite yet until I hear kind of your guys is like Initial takes on this because I know based on what we kind of grumbled about via text I don't think either any of us had the highest opinions of this So I'm just curious from each of you Like did you enjoy some of this or did you flat out just hate the whole thing? I'm like, I kind of want to like talk about like, you know the first Three quarters of the movie first and then we can get into like the closing part of it because I assuming that for both of you You know, even if you liked the other half or the beginning like leading up to the end that the end was Disappointing unless one of you was like I hated everything but I loved the ending then that's another interesting topic we can have but Alex I'll kick it over to you to hear a little bit of your thoughts on it
00:05:58
Alex
Yeah, i'm I'm realizing I was playing it a little bit coy, a little misdirection in some of my texts with y'all because I really enjoyed this and I really enjoyed the way it ended.
00:06:09
Alex
And I went into this expecting to not like the way it ended because I think I read your leather box review, Dustin, where you referenced a late game swerve that for you I think kind of undid a lot of the work leading up to it.
00:06:09
Dustin Zick
Okay.
00:06:22
Alex
And I think I went in expecting the movie to pull in a different direction that I didn't appreciate or didn't feel earned. And to me, I thought it was consistently good, apart from the beginning. The beginning is a little flabby, I think. It really kicks into high gear, for me at least, once they get into the jury room and start deliberating. But I thought the ending gives it this really nice note of ambiguity I'm going to use a cliché phrase for talking about movies these days, but this really did subvert my expectations in a way that I found dramatically compelling and enriched the material and felt supported by the entire hour and 45 minutes I had seen before that late-game swerve.
00:07:08
Alex
So yeah, I really dug this. I think visually it's maybe a little uninventive. I feel like Eastwood really relied on kinetic editing rather than cinematography to kind of make some of his, you know, put more of a firm directorial stamp on things. But yeah, i I think this was a really strong showing for him. Kyle, let's get into it. What were your thoughts?
00:07:35
Brooklyn Brown
I am shocked by the things you just said. I am shocked by the things you just said. This is in the category for me of one of the worst movies I've ever seen.
00:07:43
Alex
I aim to please.
00:07:48
Brooklyn Brown
One of the worst movies I have ever seen. Like truly. And I and i love hyperbole. ah You You must know that by now.
Discussion on Execution and Critiques of Juror #2
00:07:57
Brooklyn Brown
But I, from the beginning,
00:08:02
Brooklyn Brown
until the end. And so the end didn't do anything to me. The end, I was not... There was no swerve because I was just... I got stuck into the detail. I found... It was unfortunate that I had just gone to jury duty because I think that covered it a little bit. But even the mechanics of the jurors being selected and the stuff happening in the room,
00:08:26
Brooklyn Brown
I didn't really care. That's that's not like what bothered me about it in a lot of ways. I thought the the delivery of almost every single line was rough from from from every single character except really Tony Collette. Faith, yeah. And and and like her counterpart as well, the defensive journey.
00:08:49
Brooklyn Brown
But but even even he, I felt, was a little wooden and unbelievable. Toni Colletta, I really appreciated. I liked her a lot in this. I liked her role. I liked the conflict of her running for something. I actually texted my defense attorney friend and was like, why did people even why is this even a thing people campaigned for? and you know He explained it to me and I was like, no, right, fine. I guess I'll i'll go along with that.
00:09:13
Brooklyn Brown
but bizarrely my take on My take on this was like, it actually was kind of shot well to me, or I appreciated what I what i saw visually, the composition of the shots of the jury, the the way things moved, the the way the history is retold through some of those but some of those flashbacks are not necessarily, and from like well, a lot of them are from a different perspective, but the the flashbacks were were, I think, well done and well brought in and well used.
00:09:46
Brooklyn Brown
But it was it was weird, it was like every other aspect of the film for me was entirely empty. The lines that those, whenever the jurors were in the room talking to one another, I hated the way that they were saying everything to each other, and I hated what they were saying to each other. And I felt that, so yeah, just, i I didn't believe the dialogue to me was written by, it was like someone who had never, it was almost like it was written by AI. It was like someone who had never talked to another human being was like, this is how human beings would talk in this kind of stressful environment. And I mean, it was like consistently bringing me out of it where I was like, what the, this is not how people are in the world at all. And it just kept going and going. And then Toni Collette would bring it back a little bit because I liked how she operated the whole time.
00:10:41
Brooklyn Brown
But yeah, from from Nicholas Holt to JK Simmons's character, this is the first time I could ever remember not liking JK Simmons, but really, for me, it was the script.
00:10:52
Brooklyn Brown
The script for me, I just did not... It's like the movements of the script, what's supposed to happen if I storyboarded it out.
00:10:57
Dustin Zick
Thank you.
00:11:01
Brooklyn Brown
that makes sense. I'm fine with that. But like the actual the actual words being said, I was just like none of this is tracking with me. And so it kind of felt this is this weird, like, like like fake The movie is shot well. I like what I'm seeing, but every time anyone opens their mouth from there, from the husband and
Debate on Narrative Choices and Themes in Juror #2
00:11:24
Brooklyn Brown
wife to the jurors, I didn't like any of that. I liked some of the movements, and I kind of liked the conflicts of the characters within it, but the execution of every single line on this film fell flat.
00:11:41
Brooklyn Brown
and And these are some of the the biggest moments when Colette and Holder on the bench and and when when Allison and and and and dustin are dustin justin justin when alison and Justin are like,
00:11:42
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:11:54
Brooklyn Brown
when she's kind of confronting him a little bit, like, did you drink all this stuff? his retelling of of of of any little story or like his attempt to kind of lie his way out of something or or b or be convincing ah ah while also not giving away that he knows something, when Marcus kind of confronts him, that he's got his eye on him. i like i i was just The whole time I was just like, this I just didn't think it was true to how people talk to one another.
00:12:25
Brooklyn Brown
And so that just consistently tanked this thing for me. And so yeah, that was that was really my take. like i actually kind of It was weird. I was like, there wasn't any really wasted scenes, but the contents of those scenes just left me very...
00:12:40
Brooklyn Brown
ah like but Yeah, so go on. That's my initial take.
00:12:42
Dustin Zick
I would almost argue.
00:12:45
Dustin Zick
Yeah, i would i would most I would almost argue that there were plenty of wasted scenes because my, you know, like I said, the cliffhanger at the end with Faith showing up at at Justin's door and and that being that was fine. For me, what killed it was this really like forced, awkward conversation on the bench between the two of them where Justin basically, we spend the whole movie with his character thinking that he's gonna you know that that he's feeling guilt over this.
00:13:17
Alex
Right.
00:13:17
Dustin Zick
And then ah ah when the opportunity comes to like absolve himself and save an innocent person's life, he basically is like, Bob, no, I don't know. Why would I do that?
00:13:28
Dustin Zick
And it's not... it It's not that fact that he decides not to do it that kills me, it's just that like we never get we spend the whole movie thinking that he's coming to this conclusion and we never see any sort of internal or external dialogue that he has with himself or others that explains why he would come to the opposite conclusion.
00:13:52
Dustin Zick
All the drama, all the storytelling leading up to that point makes you think he's coming to one conclusion. And then in the matter of like two minutes of them sitting on a bench, he's like, why would I confess? Why would I admit my involvement in this? Because I'm a good man.
00:14:09
Dustin Zick
and this would destroy my life and it's like so then what the fuck were you belly aching about for the entire fucking thing and like when did you change your mind on this because you've been going through all this shit and stalking people and and doing all this wild shit leading up to it like I don't understand where that came from. that's That was like my biggest gripe. Kyle hearing you talk about like the the the dialogue feeling fake and and just forced, like I don't disagree with that either. It's like a lot of these performances
00:14:43
Dustin Zick
What was disappointing is they're great actors and like I im I mean Even beyond like a dialogue thing like what a waste of Kiefer Sutherland Honestly, what a fucking waste of JK Simmons like he was there and then all of a sudden he's not and like that that Three line for his character doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me either like if he was compelled enough as like a retired cop on the jury to like go snoop around and then he gets kicked off and He's just going to be like, all right, well, well, you know, I'm going to go back to plant my gardens or whatever the fuck he was doing before he was called for jury duty.
00:15:16
Dustin Zick
No, like I don't buy that. They kind of established that he's going to like he smells he smells bullshit and he's going to want to get to the bottom of it no matter what. But he just fucking vanishes like they could only afford him for like two days on set or some shit.
00:15:24
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah.
00:15:29
Dustin Zick
And yeah, I just I feel like a lot like this was It's like someone was trying to bake a cake with this movie and they had all the right ingredients but like they didn't put the right ratio shit together and they put it in the oven like on too low of a heat and for too not enough time and everything and so the cake came out and it's like completely misdone and like soft and soggy and gross and everything but like all the right ingredients are there so like some individual flavors taste fine but the mix of everything together just leads to disappointment and so alex your opinion is wrong and i don't want to hear anything more of it
00:16:05
Brooklyn Brown
you know and
00:16:10
Brooklyn Brown
i'll say I'll say one more thing that I had had this thought as you were talking, Dustin, as well.
00:16:12
Alex
there's There's so much here that's, yeah.
00:16:16
Brooklyn Brown
but i like this This movie also struck me as like a thought experiment from my Philosophy 101 class where it's like, okay, imagine you used to have a dream problem and this thing you know like this thing happened and also the person the person on trial, but he's kind of shitty.
00:16:26
Dustin Zick
I can see that.
00:16:33
Brooklyn Brown
and and you know i mean like there's There's all these like very pointed, this you know what I mean? and and and that that That conversation that they have have um that That conversation that they have on the bench, is just one on the on the one hand, there's a couple of things I have a problem with it. there's The problem that I have is I don't believe that And this is very cynical, but Toni Collette cares too much. I think she like establishes herself as someone who's trying to get elected, but then she keeps trying to be this real, I'm trying to do good. And I'm like, I don't know. That's just not my opinion of prosecuting lawyers that are elected their position in like
00:17:20
Brooklyn Brown
the cities or towns or whatever. That's just not my vibe. But then, yeah, if you're Nicholas's, if you are Kemp, you're just doubling down. You would never have that conversation if you're actually trying to protect yourself.
00:17:36
Brooklyn Brown
guilty you want You want to have a guilty conscience? Go drink again and ruin your life. but like don't You're never saying that to the district attorney after going through all of these problems. so yeah i don't know that that was That was my issue, but Alex, tell us why we're wrong.
Transition to The Verdict: Praise and Analysis
00:17:53
Alex
It's funny because I think our reactions are mirroring a lot of what this movie says about bias and just what you bring to the table as a viewer and as someone who's interpreting the the text here.
00:18:08
Alex
where I agree with you, Kyle, to a point about the performances being broad. There is kind of like a briad a broad theatricality to all those performances in the jury room where that probably is my biggest criticism of those scenes is the characters are almost playing archetypes of ah a type. You know you have the like the stoner kid who is just very on the nose character almost. And I think Nicholas Holtz is giving a broad performance here, but what sold me on that decision he makes at the end to not turn himself in is the complex that we see etched on his face kind of throughout the movie.
00:19:00
Alex
And he is juggling these this trio of roles throughout he's playing the everyman doting husband she was just trying to do the right thing he is also playing the detective he's interrogating his own memory and interrogating the case and.
00:19:18
Alex
The third role he's playing is someone who's trying to unravel the case as it's happening. He's trying to save his own skin. He is, you know, he is a ah ah rat trapped in a cage for most of this movie and he's doing shit that is trying to undermine the case. So his decision at the end to not turn himself in to me felt consistent with that role that he was playing throughout and I don't think he gives like a stellar performance of the year, but I think he does a really solid job of showing that that conflict. And as he shifts between those three roles, you kind of see it displayed on his face. And I see your point, Kyle, about some of those conversations not feeling authentic. I think for me, I kind of bought into this movie being very theatrically written.
00:20:13
Alex
And it almost kind of read and you know more like a play than a film, just in terms of how those conversations unfolded. But I think Holtz is game enough here.
00:20:26
Alex
and Eastwood that has enough shots of the camera just showing his face and showing that kind of disquiet. And you know he's training things over in his mind. And he's he's not decided. And he is kind of squirrely about what he's going to do the whole way through. So for him to be kind of very self-serving and do the unjust thing in the end you know didn't feel inconsistent with his character all the way leading up to it.
00:20:56
Alex
I think to both of your points, I do think criminal waste of Keeper Sutherland and it was very clumsy the way that J.K.
00:21:07
Alex
Simmons was shunted out of the story. I think they could have given his character a more satisfying closure than just kind of kicking him out of the courtroom and kicking him out of the film, narratively is how it felt.
00:21:19
Alex
But yeah, a lot of the, most of the performances worked for me.
00:21:22
Dustin Zick
Yeah. i What did you guys think of, you know, i another thing that kind of took me out of it was the big reveal for Faith when she realized that in the the courtroom when she realizes that she had been talking to Justin's wife, Allie, when when she Googles Justin Kemp wife, and like it's all just pictures of the two of them that shows up in Google images immediately.
00:21:48
Dustin Zick
I was like, that's not how. yeah He's not a big enough name that that's going to pull shit up that way. Like, I don't know, like the deus ex machina of that kind of killed me in terms of just like.
00:22:04
Dustin Zick
it just felt for I don't know. i I just loved every... I wanted to like this so much more than I did and just found it like to be really underwhelming at the end of it because of that combination of the cliffhanger ending and then that that bench convo. I mean, I hear what you're saying, Alex, about like the roles that his character was like sliding through, but I just feel like they didn't spend enough time showing the viewer that he was anguishing over this and that he saw merit to
00:22:38
Dustin Zick
Go in the opposite direction versus all the work he had done where he had become convinced that he you know that the guy was innocent and all of that kind of stuff like if he was like I mean he's a journalist like who say he couldn't have like figured out another way to like Prove that he didn't the guy didn't do it But it wasn't him who did it kind of a thing or go framing A guilty guy who was guilty of something else that got away with something like that would have been more compelling to me Versus him just deciding man.
00:23:07
Dustin Zick
You know what you caught me But I'm a good man like that kind of I don't know that just killed it for me totally killed it
00:23:15
Alex
See, to me, that spoke to the ways that we we rationalize our bullshit, which is kind of another, for me, theme this movie was expressing is how we we rationalize, you know, events in our life to ourselves by, you know, i'm I'm a good person, so, you know, it's okay for me to make a morally bad choice or In the case of everyone on the jury, you know we know that this guy is is guilty because just look at him. Just look at him. he's He's a criminal. He's an abuser. And kind of making these these snap judgments about perceptions versus versus reality.
00:23:53
Alex
Maybe one thing we can shift to talking about is I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts on the editing in some of those courtroom scenes, particularly the way that the kind of crosscuts between Tony Collette's faith and the public defender as they're presenting their arguments.
00:24:10
Alex
I thought that was a really kind of clever and elegant way of showing just how impossible a task it is for a jury to rule a verdict when you have these two opposite narratives being presented to you with equal conviction.
00:24:24
Alex
And I like the way that this movie played with editing when it came to recounting the different
00:24:26
Brooklyn Brown
Yes.
00:24:31
Alex
you know, the different memories that people had of that night at the bar where things are just subtly different depending on who is the one doing the recollecting.
00:24:41
Dustin Zick
Kyle lets you take that first.
00:24:45
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, yeah, I did. I did like that part, you know, and that kind of that kind of goes back to my the the directing and the the the leading of of things seem to seem I did really appreciate because I did like the the quickness of that editing, especially when they're like given closed arguments and stuff like that and and how they are so diametrically opposed, closely aligned, and just just hinting on they're both using this probabilistic reasoning to get to completely different conclusions, both on their very they're like they're given slants. I did like that. I did kind of like the the role that that the bar played, as you said, as in all those different versions. So yeah, that's kind of like a lot of what I meant when i when I talked about the directing being very strong and somehow like the innards not like just leaving me down or not letting me down.
00:25:39
Brooklyn Brown
so yeah, I did really, I did really appreciate that. I thought that was a depth touch. I thought that was solid. Um, I thought that did, tease out a lot more drama or charge effectively than if they had just done that back to back without inter splicing them. So yeah, that was, that was solid. that was definitely solid. I guess one more thing on JK Simmons that killed me as well is that.
00:26:02
Brooklyn Brown
You have his motivations. You have his character. You have how he can't not kind of investigate this thing. You could just have there's these weird choices in the script where it's like you could just have Nicholas Holt not follow him.
00:26:14
Brooklyn Brown
right and so like Imagine if Nicholas Holt doesn't follow him and and and J.K.
00:26:16
Dustin Zick
Uh huh.
00:26:19
Brooklyn Brown
Simmons shows up the next day knowing, like well, this is the guy that didn't vote for Guilty, so I know he's my guy. Hey, I got all this information if you're interested about it. and Then Nicholas Holt kind of like lets the bag out.
00:26:32
Brooklyn Brown
And that to me would make the moment of J.K. Simmons has kicked off the jury, but Nicholas Whole is not believable.
00:26:39
Dustin Zick
Mm
00:26:41
Brooklyn Brown
And that moment just wasn't believable for me. And and and like you said, the that the reveal for for for Faith when she figures out about the wife thing, I'm like, man, I just wanted that to happen during the scene, that she's in his house talking to the pregnant wife.
00:26:43
Dustin Zick
hmm.
00:26:57
Brooklyn Brown
I wanted her to glance at some picture and then have to see that and not react.
00:26:58
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:27:02
Dustin Zick
Yep.
00:27:05
Brooklyn Brown
And those two moments, I was just like, man, I don't know why you made the choices you made. to do this. But you know I can see what you're saying, Alex, about like the rationalizing of our own bullshit. I guess for me, it was just a little too heavy handed. You know what I mean? like The rationalizing of our own bullshit,
00:27:23
Alex
the chart.
00:27:25
Brooklyn Brown
in that in that scene where he's saying it out loud to Tony Collette. like It's really a ah ah tell, don't show in in ah in in for for a script. but yeah so yeah that's I do see what you're saying there as like a thing you can get out of it that's like, oh yeah, there's something there that's interesting.
00:27:44
Brooklyn Brown
but But yeah, but I did like, you know, kind of like I said at the beginning, I did like a lot of how the camera moved and how the editing was done and how the movie was made, but it just didn't, meat, yeah, the meat was not there, Dustin's cake analogy, you know?
00:28:00
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:28:00
Alex
Yeah, nicely said.
00:28:02
Dustin Zick
Well, maybe that's a good spot to shift to the next movie on the list here. about The Verdict? I'll let one of you guys start off sharing your thoughts on that.
00:28:15
Dustin Zick
But yeah, I want to hear it. I loved it. I want to hear what you guys have to say.
00:28:19
Alex
Yeah, I love this too. And I think I knew I was going to love it from the opening shot, where I just, I love the feeling when you're watching a movie and you know that you're in really deft hands, whether it's by a performer or by a director. And in this case, I knew it was in deft hands by Sydney Lumet's direction and Paul Newman's acting.
00:28:42
Alex
we get this great kind of shot of ah Paul Newman's Frank, Frank Galvin, you know, playing pinball. He's kind of backlit. It's moody. He's, you know, drinking, drinking whiskey. And the camera is just slowly pushing in on him playing pinball. And I feel like we get a really good sense of the low point that he is, that the movie starts just from that framing and that shot. And then throughout the next couple of scenes where we see the extent to which, as he describes, or another character describes about him, he's an ambulance chaser. He is showing up at funeral parlors to try and drum up work for himself as an attorney.
00:29:28
Alex
And I thought that was really deft characterization. i I love the moment in an early scene where he puts his business card in the hand of a grieving widow, and it just like slowly falls through her fingers. And that's that's a great little moment of dark comedy that, you know again, keep me in that I was in really deft hands from the director and the main performer here.
00:29:50
Alex
And I just loved the way this unfolded. And the main thing that I kept thinking about is it almost felt like a sports movie to me as much as a courtroom drama. And I think that's because of how strong this is as an underdog story, where structurally, it's all leading up to the big game, the big fight in the courtroom between Frank and Ken Cannon.
00:30:16
Alex
And I just love the way that Frank's backstory is slowly kind of dribbled out really effectively. And I think that when we do get in the courtroom, the payoff is just so dramatically compelling and so good that it justifies all of that buildup.
00:30:33
Alex
And I think in some ways, this is kind of the most simplistic, right versus wrong, good versus evil story of these three movies, because to me, it felt very clear from the start, who is in the right and who is in the wrong. And it's really about, is Frank gonna have the chops to pull off his upset and pull off his victory? And I just thought it was a great, great movie all the way through. Kyle, what was your take on on The Verdict?
00:31:03
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, in stark contrast to journey number two, this is one of the best movies I've ever seen. this this This landed on every on every single level for me. On the way that the information was given, Paul Newman was outrageously good. Everyone was outrageously good.
00:31:21
Brooklyn Brown
There was not a weak performance in this movie. From the from the the sister and husband in that confrontation scene, to Mickey, his friend, to to Laura, to the judge, toin cannon to to the doctor, to the to the to the nurses that are holding back, to the to the black doctor they bring in to try to help the case.
00:31:46
Brooklyn Brown
to I mean, like everything and it really that pinball scene to start and then you know, it happens a couple more times is is such an interesting It's really an incredible moment. i went I went back and actually watched a little bit of that right before we recorded and then watched the i watched another scene, watched a couple more scenes actually, just to kind of just to kind of refresh myself. But this is also a movie to me that, in contrast to other movies where I just like, for example, Chinatown in Los Angeles, I felt like this really, maybe it's because I'm an East Coast guy, who knows. but
00:32:24
Brooklyn Brown
I loved its kind of portrait of Boston without it being over the top, you know like the archdiocese being the people that own the hotel or the hotel, of the hospital, but it's But it's not just ah it's not but that that wasn't so much involved, but it was certainly there.
00:32:40
Brooklyn Brown
and It was an aspect and it's very Boston. But then also like this level of Boston lawyer alcoholism with the pinball, with the eggs. What is this bar that just has eggs, just a like raw?
00:32:52
Brooklyn Brown
What is happening? And and then the bar that that they go to that they kind of make their haunt,
00:32:56
Dustin Zick
Yep.
00:32:57
Brooklyn Brown
where there's just apparently cold cuts in ah ah in ah in an ah a public fridge and that's fine. and like It's really like everyone knows your name type of place and everyone's there to to get very drunk. But in this way that you know has is is poignant and just and just tragic. But that pinball where he's just pressing buttons to start, his his character and the way the the moments that I really appreciated in terms of you take a character that you could just give it all away. And I agree with that. Sports analogy is wonderful. alice I do like that because it's it's the underdog, but it's also like the comeback. you know it's the It's the for love of the game. It's the last, the last you know I need to go out there and pitch one more for big game type thing.
00:33:38
Brooklyn Brown
and And when they the way that they give you that information, the way that they set up home, I mean, Paul Newman is ludicrously good in this. This was one of those movies that I was just like, I don't have to go watch 15 Paul Newman movies, Paul Newman movies in a row, because it was such a good performance.
00:33:53
Alex
Same.
00:33:53
Brooklyn Brown
And the way that they set that yeah, the way that they set that character up, where you do not feel bad for him, You're kind of like, this guy is is a victim of his own decisions. There's something about maybe he did some shady stuff, but we're not going to give that a lot of flesh yet. And then he's trying to actually pull it all together and do a bunch of stuff. And he has Mickey go and take Laura out, which is also like a hilarious old school thing to do of like, Oh, I have a date with a woman, but like, can you go do it for me? which is amazing, but also just wanted like of of a time and place that I i don't have. don't recollect it all existing. but but but yeah so But the way that they give you that actual meat of the fall of Frank Galvin, and it comes
00:34:45
Brooklyn Brown
three quarters of the way through the movie where you're already kind of like, this guy must be a shithead, a little bit of a heart of gold in there maybe, but kind of a shithead and you're like, no, he actually was, you know, and they kind of hinted at it earlier with his the breakdown of the he was the editor of the law review.
00:34:45
Dustin Zick
Mmhmm.
00:35:01
Brooklyn Brown
And and he had all he had all these promising things. He was a part of this big firm and all this stuff. And then, you know yeah, they're not good people. So they so fucked him over. And now he became this. And I've been given my best, but it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen. And that this is the case that they kind of brings him out of it. And that moment of the moment of clarity he has when he's looking at her body on the machines, and he's like, I'm just going to go for this. and Every single moment, including the one where he just punches Laura in the face, which I did not expect, that was not what I thought was going to happen in that comp confrontational scene, was incredible. like Incredible. and Then the moment at the end and also the way that they kind of deliver the win
00:35:46
Brooklyn Brown
But then they don't tell you thecent like the actual the money that the jury is going to ask for, but they hint at it. like Every single thing that was told to me and also kept from me was pitch perfect and balanced to just deliver every moment in in all its fullness. i mean I cannot say enough about this movie that I loved. i just I'm going to watch it. I may watch it again after this based on just loving it. I mean, so much. It was so, so, so, so, so good.
00:36:15
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, that's my gap.
00:36:17
Dustin Zick
Yeah, no, I the for me the the pinball scene like that motif coming back to it Especially the the it's like the second or I think like the third or maybe fourth time that he's playing pinball when he like finally beats it and he's like celebrating like is is such a great kind of like path for his character to go on, and ah ah something i so I read in the Wikipedia page that I thought was really interesting was that the producers were reluctant to keep the scene where Newman strikes Rampling, so we he punches Laura, believing it would turn the audience against his character and even damage his public image. Newman insisted on keeping it, believing it was right for the story, which I agree, and like I didn't see that coming either, but it's like
00:37:03
Dustin Zick
I think this is one of those, know it the the list of other actors that were interested in this role, Roy Schneider, Frank Sinatra, Cary Grant, Dustin Hoffman. But I feel like Newman's like one of the few actors that could like pull this character off in a way that needed to
Visual Storytelling and Themes in The Verdict
00:37:20
Dustin Zick
be pulled off. because like He's a shitty person doing shitty things But Paul Newman is so like by default charming and like somebody that you like no matter what that like uh, he does an amazing job at like playing the shitty person down to a level like and like combating his own affable charm and just when you're like kind of like yeah, man, I like this guy I like you know what he's doing and he punches her
00:37:44
Alex
Okay. Okay.
00:37:52
Dustin Zick
And and you're like, I can't really get behind that even though she deserved to have a mean talking down to you because she's kind of not cool and like So that takes you down at another notch with him But you're still rooting for his character and you're still rooting for like His his redemption art is like far from a perf like he doesn't come out on top.
00:37:59
Brooklyn Brown
di
00:38:03
Alex
Um, okay.
00:38:16
Dustin Zick
Ultimately. He had one big win a just win for his clients, but like And I love that like the ending right is like he the fact that he decides not to pick up the phone He doesn't know it's her he probably assumes it's her but he says not to pick up the phone and you could also read that as like oh he's thinking it's somebody calling him about taking another case or something too and he's just not He's just gonna like kind of like rest on his laurels for a little bit. I don't know everything about this movie just felt very like
00:38:51
Dustin Zick
I love the setting in Boston. i love like i think about i mean I've only been in a courtroom in Milwaukee like once when I almost got selected for Jerry Duty. and it is not you know the majesticness of and Obviously, this was a courtroom for film in the the early 80s kind of a thing. but like There's something Very like lived in about all of the environments in this movie that I feel like comes through really strong but then it also portrays like the legal part of it in the buildings and even the hospital when they're going through the hospital and stuff like that with it being the the Catholic hospital and the the huge hallways and tall ceilings and stuff like everything feels
00:39:31
Dustin Zick
a little bit larger than life which i think also just kind of adds to like the setting is just so great in like his office and how run down and like disgusting like the walls look like in his office and stuff like that all of that i feel like really
00:39:35
Alex
Thank you.
00:39:47
Dustin Zick
underscores like just a really like how much the setting in the environment is part of the story in this and and amplifies the story being told.
00:39:54
Alex
Right.
00:39:57
Dustin Zick
then yeah i mean Kyle, what you said about like everybody is firing on all cylinders here performance-wise. The fucking judge was killing like that scene when the judge starts questioning the witness and you're just like what the fuck is going on and Galvin is like Basically asking him the same shit like oh if you're gonna start handling my case for me like maybe don't lose it for me kind of things like holy shit and then the fact that they go back to the judges chambers and and Frank just like lays into the judge and the judge kind of just takes it because he's not wrong and It's just yeah, like everything about this was so good and like and I appreciate like the the old-school You know like the doggedness of the the
00:40:23
Brooklyn Brown
incredible.
00:40:49
Dustin Zick
the detective work kind of, right? Like hunting down that nurse and and like how he did that was pretty great. How he he needed to find out where she was and he went to the other nurse and like pretended that he talked to her and she dropped it that, oh, she was she's here from New York and so he knew she was in New York. So then him and Mickey spent all night trying to call and find this person in New York, which is a fool's errand,
00:41:11
Dustin Zick
Uh, especially pre-internet and everything and then he gets his own phone bill and he's like, oh she probably got her phone bill today too And so he goes and breaks into your fucking mailbox. Like how awesome is that? Don't break into mail. That's a federal offense, but um, I feel like all of that kind of combined is pretty I don't know like this is just like what you want like an old school like courtroom movie to be when it comes to like digging up dig up your evidence and your witnesses and things like that. And it all like following through is pretty wild at the end, especially given that like the nurse's damning testimony had to be stricken and everything and the the jury still went for it is pretty great.
00:41:59
Alex
Yeah, you made some really great points, Dustin, about just the visual storytelling on display here and how much is communicated through the set design and what we see of Frank's office. i To echo your point, I loved kind of the ornate just interior of that arts diocese office where you can just see like the gilded corruption through all of the gold and the the red leather is just so evocative and and well done. i I also think about the scenes of Kim Cannon preparing his case in his office where they've got that big long boardroom table and you're just seeing how heavily the deck is stacked against
00:42:46
Alex
Galvin and against Frank with all of them preparing and then coaching the doctors through their their testimony. And yeah, those those interior and exterior spaces do such a good job of communicating the drama and the stakes here. And some other visual touches I really liked was how the facts that Laura was spying for the defense was communicated to the viewer.
00:43:15
Alex
where it's not done through exposition. We're shown in a really elegant way, you know, we see her kind of in in their office initially, and don't get much of a snippet of that conversation, but just her presence there is enough to make your stomach sink. And then later on when we get Frank's friends,
00:43:37
Alex
going through her mail and opening up the the letter and seeing the check from the defense uh is another kind of gut punch so in contrast to what we were talking about with juror number two doing a lot of telling and not much showing i think this just has so much lean efficient storytelling in terms of what is communicated through to the viewer visually And it makes it satisfying because you are an active participant in this story. You're putting the pieces together along with Frank. And I think that helps give his win at the end even more catharsis because you're right there with him kind of, you know, going through these steps.
00:44:19
Brooklyn Brown
yeah the scenes Some of the scenes that I liked the most when it when it when it comes to this, like the the scene where the Bishop, and sorry, the Bishop, but is the head of the Archdiocese at that point, I don't know if he's a Bishop.
00:44:34
Brooklyn Brown
I cannot remember
Discussion on The Caine Mutiny and Bogart's Performance
00:44:35
Brooklyn Brown
his his official title.
00:44:36
Alex
Mmhmm.
00:44:37
Brooklyn Brown
But when when he's when he asked that question and he's like, well, yeah, but What do you think about this? That was incredible. you know And they they cut that off. And then also the hubris on display at the end when they're they're talking to the guy who's like been smarmy from the beginning. And he's like, well, legally, the case is one.
00:45:00
Brooklyn Brown
and And the hubris of that that thing being stricken from the record, and the doctor like touching Ken Cannon's arm, like, oh, nice work. Worked the legal system proper on this one. like Now they'll have to they'll have to, because of the rules of the game, they'll have to give it to us. And the jury just denying that was so satisfying.
00:45:24
Brooklyn Brown
Man, yeah, there's there's there's so many moments, but I really i also really appreciate it on like a small Frank Galvin character level when he can't physically lift the shot glass full of morning whiskey and he has to put it back down on the table and then bend over like a child drinking a hot chocolate that's too full to pick up was it' So much subtlety in these in these character-developing moments that are just like amazing. And how also like in that punch scene, she she reacts in a way of like, yeah, I deserve that. like i'm I'm happy this happened to me because I've been hating myself for doing this for a while. The scene where he has to he like she confronts him and gives him the talking to that he needs, kind of and he hides in the bathroom.
00:46:17
Brooklyn Brown
like There's just, I mean, every single moment, just incredible. And the ending, I love the ending so much. The ending reminded me kind of of how I felt about the Five Easy Pieces ending, where i obviously I loved this movie from top to bottom. but That ending was just, and I think that he knew it was her calling and he was just like, nope, let it ring, bitch. I'm not here for any of that. You're just going to have to sit with this. and you know like you don' i don't know he He doesn't even know at that point if if she knows his story about his initial fall from grace that led to him being the person we see on screen now.
00:46:57
Brooklyn Brown
But it was just one of those moments of like, yeah, life's not fair. Sorry. Made bad choices. You got it with the wrong people. And this is what it is. I'm not here to save you. i am i'm goingnna I'm going to be happy with what I assume to be like $250,000 that he just got. but At that time, he's going to let him just drink a lot of Bushmills for this foreseeable future.
00:47:19
Alex
Yeah, I think that's all really well said. and And one thing that also I just love about this movie is how cracklingly good the script is by David Mamet, who's a playwright and and screenwriter. But there's just so many good, not only speeches, like that last speech that Frank gives is just amazing for its catharsis and for the way that he empowers the jury and tells them, you know, today you are the law, you're the ones who decide, i not these lawyers. And, you know, that's an amazing moment. I love the conversation he's having with his buddy Mickey, where he's saying, like, how do you think, you know, speaking about the other lawyers, like, how do you think they got to this place by doing good? and
00:48:09
Alex
and just kind of implying the shadiness and the corruptness of their enterprise before we even see them on screen. I just think there's so many good lines of dialogue in this, but you know, none of them are showy. They all just feel really authentic to the characters and to the situations that they're that they're in. So I think it's another thing I'm going to enjoy about this on the rewatch is just appreciating not just the visual storytelling, but how damn good the script is.
00:48:39
Dustin Zick
Oh god, I was muted that whole time. oops Let's shift over to our last one here, The Cane Mutiny.
00:48:44
Brooklyn Brown
Say it again.
00:48:47
Dustin Zick
This is a movie that, like I was saying earlier, I had never heard of the original. this is The one we watch for this is from 1954. What I am familiar with and is on my very soon-to-watch list is a remake reimagining of the Kane mutiny, except it's re I think it's titled the Kane mutiny court martial by William Friedkin. It was the last movie he did before he passed recently adapted for the Persian Gulf War with Kiefer Sutherland and a few other notable actors. And it looks awesome. And I had seen that I hate stumbled across it. I think it came out like two years ago in like 2022 or 2023. And I stumbled across the trailer recently and wanted to watch it.
00:49:31
Dustin Zick
But felt like it would be worthwhile to watch the original so I had never even really Maybe was mildly familiar with this because Humphrey Bogart is the the leading name in this there's certainly other notable names of its time and Yeah, this was not what I expected. I knew it was a courtroom movie, but really it's about a two-hour timer run and it's the final fourth of the movie that takes place in the courtroom and Uh, the first three quarters of it are on board the ship the uss cane And kind of I mean it all leads up to the ah ah the courtroom and like what happens there but uh, yeah, ultimately I feel like I really like this I uh, Definitely see it as a product of its time. Uh certainly coming in the early 50s I think most movies if not all of them that were uh
00:50:26
Dustin Zick
couched in in World War II, basically, you know, are very nationalistic, like pro-America kind of movies. And obviously the story here only really deals with like America and things like that, but like there's really no, you know, it's it's calling into question one serving officer versus like The legitimacy of war and things like that and not that world war ii wasn't legitimate or anything Uh, but like just very clearly like pride in america Uh like that vibe of world war ii movies from you know, the late 40s 50s early 60s even things like that before for Vietnam and and those kind of things really started to sour people on the idea of more nationalistic portrayals of of war in film. But yeah, I think you know this movie really picked up its pace for me once he got to the courtroom at the end. Everything that happened in there I thought was super compelling and interesting.
00:51:24
Dustin Zick
Uh, the drag of this more so than anything else is, uh, the, the audience proxy of, uh, uh, sewer and sign, Seward, uh, Keith Willis, Seward, Keith Willie.
00:51:39
Dustin Zick
Uh, he's, Oh man. What did you call him? Alex? What was the term that you used? Uh, what noodle or something or, you know, we either you go.
00:51:45
Alex
yeah is he's a weeny he is a complete weeny
00:51:49
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
00:51:49
Alex
and this movie
00:51:49
Dustin Zick
Yeah. Yeah, he's the weakest part of this, which is a pity because he's the audience proxy kind of coming into the story.
00:51:51
Alex
and yeah
00:51:59
Dustin Zick
he's just I feel like he's just a snooze. All the other characters around him are immensely more compelling and interesting than any ah other character he has interaction with.
00:52:10
Dustin Zick
That other care like give me more of whoever the hell he's talking to and less of him and then the the other Weight of this movie.
00:52:11
Alex
He's a weenie. He is a complete weenie in this movie.
00:52:19
Dustin Zick
It's a pity because I feel like you could easily shave off 20 to 30 minutes by cutting this out is Willy the weenies love story which is completely and utterly Inconsequential to the rest of the story being told and it
Themes of Authority and Mental Health in The Caine Mutiny
00:52:34
Dustin Zick
almost feels like another piece that maybe was somewhat of a I don't want to say a product of its time, but that like somebody on the producing writing end felt like compelled to put in there to maybe bring in more a bigger audience or something like that, but really just has no bearing on the story being told is arguably pretty much a snooze because she's kind of a snooze sort of a thing.
00:52:57
Dustin Zick
But all the supporting actors from obviously Bogart, but Van Johnson, Fred McMurray was so, so good as, what was he, Kiefer, I think.
00:53:10
Dustin Zick
He was phenomenal.
00:53:10
Alex
Yep.
00:53:12
Dustin Zick
And then Jose Ferrer, I think it's Jose Ferrer, he was the the attorney that was prosecuting Captain Queek or Commander Queek.
00:53:25
Dustin Zick
He was phenomenal and especially that turn at the end when he kind of laid into all the soldiers Or all the seamen and and the mistakes they made and and how they got to that place sort of a thing So all of that kind of elevated the weaker parts for this for me to the point that I'm like really glad I watched it and I think I'm really excited to watch the remake of it and and just kind of see what the my My interpretation from what I've seen and lightly read about it is that it takes place primarily in the courtroom versus this one, which is primarily out of the courtroom. So I think that's going to make it a little more of a compelling watch for me. But yeah, which one of you wants to to dive in? Alex, you want to share a little bit about your thoughts on this?
00:54:10
Alex
Yeah, totally. And mine mirror yours kind of pretty closely where I do think that Robert Francis as Willie Keith is the weakest, not just because he's kind of a nothing burger of a character, but because of how the movie is structured, where we spend really a good like 30 to 35, 40 minutes just following Keith as he gets acquainted with with the cane and You know, he has a whole subplot interaction with the former commander who's then replaced replaced by Humphrey Bogart's Francis Quig. But I just was struck by how superfluous that whole ramp up kind of is to the main complex that drives this story, where
00:54:57
Alex
I wish that Willie was more well integrated into that conflict between Queague and Merrick and Kiefer, because they're kind of the three characters who really have, circling each other throughout the that middle act aboard the cane.
00:55:17
Alex
when Queague is kind of having his dissents into paranoia and that really compelling act in the courtroom where there's a little bit where Willie's involved because initially he's kind of, you know, so starry-eyed enamored by authority in anyone with power that he's kind of you know, kind of a lickspittle for Kweig at the beginning, but then, you know, realizes that he is somewhat unhinged and allies with with Merrick and Kiefer against him. But yeah, I just think that could have been could have been truncated ah ah and been less of a slog to get through. But I think what speaks to how strong the parts of this movie are that work are is that
00:56:02
Alex
thinking about it, those are the parts I remember. I remember scenes like, I think I said in the text thread where you've got Kweig, or I said in my leather box review rather, that the scene where Humphrey Boger as Kweig is buttering his toast, I could watch that for hours because if that doesn't cue you in that demand is a low-key psychopath, nothing will. Because it's just so good the way that he like very meticulously bothers this toast as he's kind of having an unhinged rant about finding the missing court of strawberries and just some great physical acting by Bogart who also gives a great performance in that courtroom scene where he's kind of increasingly wide-eyed with desperation and you can see
00:56:51
Alex
kind of the paranoia, you can see the PTSD that he's clearly suffering from. And I think that's a ah ah layer to this character in this story that I really appreciated it is that Kweig is not just a villain. He's kind of sympathetic in, you know, what a lunatic he is because his paranoia is coming from real experiences. And, you know, as someone who has been through all these tours of duty in World War II, whereas the cane is somewhat of, you know, of an untested ship until he takes over the reins. And I just thought that was really compelling how sympathetic he was. You know, it could have been so easy to make him just this one dimensional villain almost, but that speech that jo Jose Ferrer gives at the end as Barney Greenwald, where he
00:57:44
Alex
kind of interrogates, Lieutenant Merrick and Lieutenant Kiever and says, you know, you guys, uh, you guys are also on trial here for, for, um, for not supporting your captain and for being so quick to throw him aside, you know, someone who, who suffered and who does have PTSD from his experiences. so I, I enjoyed this for the most part. And I just wish that that beginning 30 minutes and I also hated the coda that we got where Willie Keith goes back on the cane at the end, and he reunites with the initial commander, Charlie.
00:58:25
Alex
You know, we didn't need that and it felt very tonally off kilter with the courtroom drama and just the themes being explored there. It felt very like a vestigial limb from another film to have an end with this kind of happy little musical moment where Willie Keith is now back with the rap scallions aboard the cane. for the most part, I really dug this and I'm glad we we watched it for the pod. Kyle, what about you?
00:58:53
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, I mean, I yeah i definitely... I liked it more than I thought I would, especially since I don't really tend to gravitate to war movies, and I don't tend to gravitate to older movies, and older war movies tend to be a particular like, I'm not really interested in that. um But you know this was this was not typical of of of those arenas in a lot of ways. And I i really liked that this was kind of my first experience of Humphrey Bogart not being the debonair leading man.
00:59:24
Brooklyn Brown
And that's kind of been my experience of Humphrey Bogart, which speaks to my own inadequacies and my viewings of his work. but it was a It was sort of like, oh, when we found out that Humphrey Bogart was, when I found out that Humphrey Bogart was in this and then he wasn't present for that first ah ah third or however long it was, and he wasn't present for quite a while while they set up the game, they set up the whole backstory and all that. I was like, huh, when is Humphrey Bogart going to come in and what role is he going to play?
00:59:54
Brooklyn Brown
So it almost like bamboozled me there cuz I just didn't believe that he was gonna be the the coward so to speak, you know, obviously I think what you're saying is is true Alex and I think that's that speech at the end by the lawyer who's just one but is not really satisfied with himself or the case or any of those gentlemen at all is is is impactful and and like a very good watch so I learned a lot about what Bogart could do and those moments you mentioned are are fantastic. I really Yeah. like the I kind of appreciated the the lead up a little bit more maybe than than both of you. It sounds like it did. I do think that the love story should have been cut off pretty much after he did an introducer to the mother and Mae can just be like, you are a fucking pug-ass bitch. I don't want anything to do with you. and and and I think that was the that's the that's why that exists, right? Well, it exists because it's the 50s and they need
01:00:47
Brooklyn Brown
the female character to maybe to think think it goes or to or give it more life or more box office his presence. But it's also like, it's just a hammer in the fact that he's a non-confrontational, like can't even talk to his own mother about stuff. and And I think that gives color to how much of a weenie he is in in these moments on the boat and kind of hit the the role he plays. So, but I think you can accomplish all of that without any of the extra scenes with them beyond kind of that initial, you came and introduced me to your mother.
01:01:17
Brooklyn Brown
And then she's also like just got to sit there and takes it when he introduces her as a friend and I'm like no no no she freaks out there too like that's not she's not putting up with that but anyway. The the the descent I thought was very good of a booger coming in and then those big moments of him like kind of losing and it being worse and worse and worse.
01:01:37
Brooklyn Brown
and how it like it just it had the right amount of buildup on both Bogart's decline and their coming to understand that this was going to happen. And then that that you know the scene of the storm which brings everything to a head I thought was also very good. So yeah, this this this movie surprised me when it comes to an old movie dealing with themes that are pretty challenging, I think, especially at the time that this is coming out.
01:02:04
Brooklyn Brown
you know i think I think, honestly, one of the reasons we get that code to Alex is because, and this is pure conjecture, which I as ah ah i love to do, but I think one of the reasons we got that, and it's it's one of the reasons that we had the opening scene where they're like, there has never been a mutiny in the United States. I just want to make that very clear to everyone. And then at the end where they're like, this is very simply dedicated to the United States Navy. like they really It's a movie that seems like we know we're going to push some boundaries here of the post-World War II America that is still embroiled in war all over the globe at this point. lot of sea wars as well. So that i that I thought was was, I was like kind of shocked that it was doing that, that it was kind of taking a ah shot at
01:02:52
Brooklyn Brown
Or using using, because you could do this with, you could ah you got to toss these people in in a few other wars in other countries and other things, but to go to to make these Americans at that time, it's kind of a brave choice. And I think that's one of the reasons we get that ending is because it kind of brings it all like, no.
01:03:09
Brooklyn Brown
The army is good we know we you know like we all we figured on the end and all those things i like that captain character is a lot i like that watch scene where i think it really kinda hints on. The nuances of running a boat especially running a boat like that raise like i can't accept it to get the code it's absolutely outrageous and then i got behind the music oh.
01:03:30
Brooklyn Brown
What is this watch?
01:03:31
Alex
Who left this year?
01:03:31
Brooklyn Brown
Is this watch here? This is crazy. Who left this here? This is an interesting watch. I'll take that watch. that i so I did i did kind of i did kind of like like all of those, but yeah, just I was in invested the whole time from kind of beginning to end in all the all the all the you know the varying levels of what it was saying about the army and what it was saying specifically, the maybe, obviously more specifically, obviously the fighting corps of the of the United States.
01:03:57
Brooklyn Brown
but the The boat stuff, being on a crappy boat, like you know not necessarily being at war, or having this very specific mind sweep or stuff. like it just There's a reason why my dad has been telling me to watch this movie for a long time, and I'm glad I did because it it it definitely was something I probably wouldn't have watched on my own if not for the pod, but it really delivered for a movie of the 50s about war starting Hungry Bogart in a way that just really surprised me pleasantly.
01:04:22
Dustin Zick
Yeah, it looked it sounds like the Navy was a little, it ruffled some feathers with some initial discomfort with both having a mentally unbalanced man as a captain of a ship and then having the word mutiny in the title.
01:04:39
Dustin Zick
so I imagine that some of that was done to some degree to kind of, as you said, Kyle, like to kind of underscore and placate those concerns with like, this is just fiction and you know, the men serving in the Navy are honorable and blah, blah, blah, kind of a thing.
Reflecting on Bogart's Role and Film's Impact
01:04:56
Alex
right
01:04:58
Dustin Zick
Which I guess, I mean, especially at the time makes sense, right? You're still coming out of, I mean, and as well today, you know, everybody that served in World War II highly respected, you know, the best generation, like all of that kind of stuff. So like, I feel like in a 10 year span after World War II, like if you're going to tell this kind of story,
01:05:19
Dustin Zick
you need to really kind of couch it in the guise of fiction and that it's not inspired by anything real and that Even even though that this story is of a mutiny, you know, it is by honorable men and even the the man who was mutinied the mutiny, is an honorable man who was just broken through, you know
01:05:25
Alex
Right.
01:05:43
Alex
repeated trauma, essentially.
01:05:45
Dustin Zick
Yeah. Yeah. You know, they didn't call it PTSD at the time. It was battle fatigue at the time, but like a couched acknowledgement of like, it's not that he was just bluntly incompetent or that he was mad, you know, trying to kill people deliberately.
01:05:48
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah.
01:05:50
Alex
Right.
01:06:02
Dustin Zick
It was just, no, he had served so valiantly for so long that he just was not of the right mind kind of a thing. Yeah.
01:06:12
Alex
Yeah. I think you both brought up really good points about just kind of how admirably progressive this movie is thematically in terms of interrogating. For me, it was really about the interrogation of chain of command and just the way that the military is is structured in terms of, you know, at what point would you rebel against a commanding officer? And I thought that Merrick's arc was really compelling in terms of initially he shows his his fierce loyalty.
01:06:43
Dustin Zick
Thank you.
01:06:44
Alex
and he's He's so upset with Kiefer for even suggesting the possibility that Kui could be unhinged. And then he slowly starts documenting.
01:06:55
Alex
He slowly starts seeing it for himself. And I think he was probably in a trio of really great or a quartet, I guess, because you have Kweig, Greenwald, this lawyer, Merrick, and then Kiefer. All four of them were just such great, rich characters, and I liked the arcs that all of them had. I do want to give a fun bit of trivia. I just found, ah in terms of some of the Navy's issues with this movie, the technical advisor for the Kane Mutiny
01:07:28
Alex
was not happy with the toast-buttering scene and made a point of saying that any officer who graduated from Annapolis would know the military standard of breaking bread into small pieces before buttering it.
01:07:35
Brooklyn Brown
Thank you all.
01:07:41
Alex
And to appease both parties, they trimmed the crust from the bread before that scene. I love that little bit of historical detail. But yeah, I just think there's so much here that is rich and is progressive.
01:07:57
Alex
And this is one that I'm excited to, maybe I will rewatch this after seeing the the Friedkin remake and kind of doing a comparison to see just how they tackle, you know, tackle the themes that this movie does.
01:08:12
Dustin Zick
Uh, another, uh, fun Easter egg that I want to call out. And actually I forgot to mention another one for the verdict. So not so much, not really an Easter egg for this one, but Lee Marvin. Are you guys familiar with Lee Marvin? The Dirty Dozen. you If you Google his face, you'll well like, you'll recognize what he looks like. He had a bit part as one of the crewmen in the Kane mutiny.
01:08:34
Dustin Zick
The true Easter egg from The Verdict is when Paul Newman is giving his closing argument when he stands and there's a wide shot behind him. There are two actors of note sitting two or three empty seats apart from each other on one bench. Tobin Bell, who is probably most well known today as Jigsaw, the killer in the Saw movies.
01:08:55
Dustin Zick
And Bruce Willis are in the courtroom scene as court room uncredited cameo I mean, is it really a cameo if you weren't a known actor back in the day?
01:09:01
Alex
Wow.
01:09:06
Dustin Zick
But that and I I had seen that I was watching it on Amazon and like it gave me like the trivia I accidentally pushed the tree or no, it wasn't the trivia I accidentally pushed up the button and it showed me the cast of the scene and it's like Bruce Willis and I'm like what the fuck Bruce Willis is in this and then that it was like court observer and I'm like
01:09:20
Brooklyn Brown
who
01:09:25
Dustin Zick
Oh, there he is right in the back. And then next time I'm like, oh, my God, it's Tobin Bell, too. So that was just kind of a random thing. But yeah, you know, maybe we could maybe teasing something, but maybe we do a little mini episode after we all watch the Friedkin remake.
01:09:38
Dustin Zick
And that can be a little, you know, 15, 20 minute listener for the audience of our thoughts on that.
01:09:43
Brooklyn Brown
A little bonus pod, yeah.
01:09:45
Alex
I love that. Yeah, let's do it.
01:09:48
Dustin Zick
do either of you have any other closing remarks on any of these three movies? Otherwise we can get into our rankings.
01:09:55
Brooklyn Brown
No, just that everyone should really see the verdict. It's so good.
01:09:57
Dustin Zick
Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:58
Alex
Yeah, Verdict was amazing. And I think everyone should sit down and watch the King Mutiny if you're intrigued at all by what we've said about it.
01:10:04
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
01:10:05
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah.
01:10:06
Alex
I think it's a fun little slice of history.
01:10:06
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
01:10:08
Alex
And like you were saying, Kyle, it's a great way to see kind of an alternative view of Humphrey Bogart than, you know, the Rick from Casablanca debonair hero, you know, he's he's just so good as this kind of like bug eyed increasingly paranoid commander that he was read to me as a different actor, despite it clearly being Humphrey Bogart, because of how just the energy he exudes here
Final Rankings and Future Episode Ideas
01:10:34
Alex
is so different.
01:10:35
Alex
So definitely recommend the watch to the King mutiny.
01:10:37
Dustin Zick
Yeah, I guess one, I'm just going to say like one parting note I'll give is I feel like we should, you know, as much as the character of Willie is a weenie in this and and ah ah a wet noodle of a character.
01:10:39
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, and and no, go ahead, Dustin.
01:10:52
Dustin Zick
And I don't really think that the actor Robert Francis does a great job adding any weight to that role. It was his first feature film role. uh in a really short four film hollywood career before he tragically died in a plane accident in 1955 when he was piloting the plane so You know had he survived we may have seen him become a much more esteemed actor or something I want to give him at least a little credit in that You know, it is a big thing to shoulder when you're amongst all of these other fantastic actors giving performances of a lifetime and this is your first movie and the character isn't written in a particularly compelling way
01:11:31
Alex
Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that because I saw a letterbox that he was only in four movies and I was like, huh, we saw 25% of his filmography and didn't, you know, didn't do some digging to realize why he had such a short run.
01:11:32
Brooklyn Brown
yeah
01:11:38
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah.
01:11:43
Dustin Zick
You're just like cuz he's just such a bad actor that they were like, yeah we're done with you
01:11:43
Alex
And that is, but that is, that is really sad.
01:11:49
Brooklyn Brown
Send him up on this plane.
01:11:49
Alex
And I'm glad, I'm glad you gave that shout out.
01:11:52
Dustin Zick
Yeah, but I do I do feel like, you know, Kyle, like your point of like, I didn't think about the lens of like that initial scene with him and his girlfriend and his mom and like him not wanting to acknowledge his girlfriend around his mom is like really do being a very relatable way to establish like, yeah, this guy like avoids confrontation.
01:11:53
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah.
01:12:13
Dustin Zick
He's a mama's boy, like Let's just set this right like set this course right away And then he like kind of has to break out of that mold that he's cast for himself Like I didn't think about that in context But I agree that like that would have been enough maybe one second scene where he tries to call her when he's got shore leave or something and she's like I'm with my other boyfriend and that kind of a thing she just doesn't pick up the phone or writes him a letter and says I'm moving on kind of a thing none of the other stuff needed to happen
01:12:35
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah.
01:12:44
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, we didn't need that whole scene in Yosemite where they were like, oh, we got the ability to shoot in Yosemite, so we're definitely gonna do that.
01:12:46
Dustin Zick
yeah
01:12:50
Brooklyn Brown
It's like, well, I didn't need any of that, but but yeah.
01:12:51
Dustin Zick
Yeah, I forgot about that. That was super random.
01:12:53
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah. That came in in the beginning, because obviously the credits are in the beginning, and they're like, oh, thanks to the National Parque Yosemite. I was like, isn't this a movie about being able to vote?
01:13:00
Dustin Zick
who
01:13:02
Brooklyn Brown
who is
01:13:02
Dustin Zick
Yeah, yeah.
01:13:03
Brooklyn Brown
without
01:13:04
Dustin Zick
And actually, I forgot, too, because I was like, man, they really went, you know, they weren't like, well, we're just kind of you like, let's go way inland kind of and not way inland, but like rather than just hanging out in San Francisco or whatever, like, let's go let's go for a trip.
01:13:19
Dustin Zick
And back in the 50s, like that was more of a trip than it is today kind of a thing.
01:13:23
Brooklyn Brown
yeah Yeah, and your car may get vapor lock and you may, yeah, please it's all it's all sorts of weird. i Speaking of not doing enough digging, Alex, I feel like, know, so the verdict, with we're we're talking a lot about Paul Newman, obviously Sidney, it's Sidney Lumet, right?
01:13:29
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
01:13:36
Brooklyn Brown
Not Sidney Lumet.
01:13:38
Dustin Zick
I made sure.
01:13:38
Brooklyn Brown
I believe it's Sidney Lumet. Yeah, it's Sidney Lumet, but I was unaware until you said it, that this was also David Mannet. So the verdict is a very rare trifecta of one of the greatest actors you've ever seen, one of the greatest writers you've ever had, and one of the best directors you've ever had.
01:13:58
Brooklyn Brown
All just crushing. I did not realize it was David Mamet, but that makes a lot of sense. and then you know and and Frankly, if you want to look up the other things that the guy who wrote Jour Number 2, not that we don't all start from somewhere, has done, it's like, o you're not David Mamet.
01:14:05
Alex
Right.
01:14:16
Brooklyn Brown
I don't know if you're gonna get there don't be I'm gonna say it it's not gonna get there I don't believe in him but it's just got nothing to his nothing to his name you know it's just it's not there's some there's there's not much there it's kind of wild to me that Clint Eastwood even like that that he couldn't have pulled some other clout or whatever and and and made it in a way that he he he wanted to but yeah you know the other thing and mean like so When I said that America was still embroiled in wars in 1954, I was like, let me fact check myself on that.
01:14:43
Brooklyn Brown
That was the year that that the Vietnam War starts.
01:14:45
Dustin Zick
Okay.
01:14:46
Brooklyn Brown
so it It's amazing that like this movie that is challenging, now it says Vietnam on the old internet.
01:14:46
Alex
Wow.
01:14:50
Dustin Zick
vietnam Vietnam or Korean War?
01:14:56
Dustin Zick
Oh.
01:14:56
Brooklyn Brown
Vietnam War, I guess, I think it has kind of a, I'm not mistaken, like, yeah, follow the French into China in 1954. So it's a big, it's a wide lens of when the Vietnam War starts.
01:15:06
Dustin Zick
Because somebody not necessarily like, well, I'm sure America was involved in it, no doubt at that point, but like not not to the extent that we were at the end.
01:15:14
Brooklyn Brown
I mean, Yeah, yeah, korea Korean War is in 1953.
01:15:17
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
01:15:19
Brooklyn Brown
So it's like, we're just, yeah, we're we're embroiled in all sorts of things around that time.
01:15:20
Dustin Zick
Gotcha. Okay.
01:15:23
Brooklyn Brown
But I mean, this movie is being made as that's ending and then the VMM War is starting to starting to become a thing because, you know, the dates they give for that are like 20 years long. But yeah, so to to have this portrait of of the military at that time is, it's almost like you need it to be Humpty Bogart.
01:15:41
Brooklyn Brown
So people are not, you know? Yeah.
01:15:43
Alex
outraged rioting in the streets.
01:15:44
Dustin Zick
Yeah.
01:15:45
Brooklyn Brown
Yeah, so it's kind of that was that's fascinating. and it's not something it's really It's one of the things that I find the hardest about picking up in eight movies that are older is like trying to place it in its moment as to why it has the the power it does or why it has the reputation that it does.
01:16:09
Dustin Zick
Mm hmm.
01:16:10
Brooklyn Brown
Because they's sometimes I'm just like, I just can't pick up why this context is is like we said progressive or is is so interesting or is so powerful. So like breaking with the common ground of of the current state of whatever culture is in America at that point.
01:16:24
Brooklyn Brown
And this is one where I was like, this is wild and I can pick up on this and I appreciated that. So yeah, ranking.
01:16:30
Dustin Zick
Yeah. I'll jump in. I mean, I don't think I feel like we're probably all going to be aligned. Well, maybe Alex, you might be a little different, but Kyle, I think you and I are on the same page here. I'm going to say the verdict. The King mutiny and then turn number two.
01:16:47
Brooklyn Brown
Yep, same for me.
01:16:49
Alex
Yep, I'm going to switch that just slightly. We got the Verdict No. 1, Juror No. 2, and No. 2, and the King Mutiny No. 3, but I enjoyed all three of these.
01:17:00
Dustin Zick
OK. Well, you, gentlemen. And thank you, audience. And we'll catch you all next time.