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00:00:00

00:00:01

Fake Realities

S1 E8 · Triple Take Cinema

21 Plays2 months ago

In this week’s episode Dustin brings us a trio of movies that explore the idea of “fake realities.” Interestingly enough, these were all released within a year of each other between 1998 and 1999.

The Thirteenth Floor (1999) - 9:55
Dark City (1998) - 35:00
The Matrix - 1:04:50

Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.

We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.

There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.

Transcript

Introduction & Theme Setup

00:00:02

Dustin Zick

Welcome to another episode of Triple Take Cinema. I'm one of your hosts, Dustin. With me, as always, is Kyle and Alex. And this week we are tackling a theme that I picked that I'm going to call fake reality. So our three movies are Dark City, which I believe is from 1998,

00:00:24

Dustin Zick

and then 1999's The 13th Floor and The Matrix.

Initial Impressions of the Movies

00:00:30

Dustin Zick

I guess I'll start. I've seen all three of these, but it's been a long time since I've seen any of them. I was just telling Kyle before we hit record here that I believe the last time I saw The Matrix was probably over 10 years ago, which is wild. Alex, I also noted that we're recording this in very early November of 2024. And I guess later this week, The Matrix is showing at the Oriental Theater in Milwaukee on Wednesday and Thursday nights. So that's kind of fortuitous timing.

00:01:01

Alex

Don't forget the matrix reloaded and the matrix revolutions after that if you wanted to kick things kick things off.

00:01:02

Dustin Zick

my

00:01:07

Dustin Zick

Oh, I didn't know they were doing the full original trilogy. Interesting.

00:01:12

Alex

It's Keanu-thon at the Oriental Theater, baby.

00:01:15

Dustin Zick

that's right. Okay, that makes sense. And then Dark City, I think I probably watched that in high school, so early 2000s, maybe college, mid or late 20s. And then the 13th floor, I want to say I rented this from the public library when I was in high school before I had a car and before I had a job.

00:01:38

Dustin Zick

Because I remember I don't remember when it came out but I remember Being intrigued by the DVD cover and for some reason it it strikes me as one that I like rode my bike to the library to rent or whatever And so I'm pretty sure I've only seen 13th floor twice now the second time being for this podcast Dark City I've probably seen I don't know two or three times including this viewing. And then The Matrix, I probably watched like once a week after I came out on DVD and all the hype for the original sequels. But then I had kind of a ah dry spell. Kyle, how about you? What's your familiarity with these three movies?

00:02:18

Killer Kyle

No familiarity. for the pool I'll start with the 13th floor, which is it's a movie that I knew existed.

00:02:30

Killer Kyle

It's a movie that I have a lot of memories of projects from the previews of those green lights.

00:02:36

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah.

00:02:37

Killer Kyle

Like those green those green lights are so it's bizarre. This is one that like I had not seen, but I am

00:02:42

Dustin Zick

You mean, you mean like the the the computer?

00:02:45

Killer Kyle

the computer green lights said that when you have the plane, the plane that you're like, yeah, that you're that they decided they were like, well, exactly.

00:02:45

Dustin Zick

yeah Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, yeah. Like the screen saver, the screen saver, basically.

00:02:55

Killer Kyle

The thing where they were like, well, the machine truly works. And someone came in and was like, but wait, what if when they're in, we make it look dope? Um, so, uh, yeah, that's, I, but, and I, and I'd never seen it, but it was just one of those ones that I think I texted you guys when I was watching. I was just like, I'm just shocked that I've never brought it home, but you know, that's why we're doing the pod. Bring all those, bring all those, bring all those chickens home to roost. So I'm very pleased.

00:03:20

Dustin Zick

i will so I know I'm interrupting your your intro piece here, but you mentioned like remembering the trailer.

00:03:23

Killer Kyle

You're fine.

00:03:26

Dustin Zick

I asked my wife if she wanted to watch this with me, and she ultimately chose not to. But as part of trying to persuade her, I queued up a trailer for it. And holy fucking shit is that like the most 1990s ass trailer like it it felt like I was watching it like the the style of it was like though you wouldn't pirate a car uh like anti-piracy ad it was just like so and it and it made me like not want to watch it um not that it was a great movie

00:03:35

Killer Kyle

oh Yeah.

00:03:51

Alex

i was like

00:03:56

Alex

It also ruins like every twist, the trailer.

00:03:58

Dustin Zick

Well, yeah well, even the fucking box art kind of ruins a twist by having that like that the poster for it has that screensaver graphic, but they kind of cleverly pull it away from one of the major twists.

00:04:12

Dustin Zick

Anyways, continue. So 13th floor you were familiar with but never watched and then.

00:04:14

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:04:17

Killer Kyle

Never watch. Same with Dark City. Dark City was also one that, like again, and I think it's it's just just just ah ah to speak to the the preview point.

00:04:19

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:04:25

Killer Kyle

I think because I was born in the 80s and then did most of my movie watching in the 90s, I think that's a big part of the reason why I do not watch previews ever at all if I can avoid it.

00:04:38

Dustin Zick

hu

00:04:39

Killer Kyle

I have this very weird policy that bothers a lot of people in my life, but I don't care.

00:04:39

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:04:44

Killer Kyle

I'll tell you all about it. I start watching a preview and as soon as a neuron in my brain fires and goes, I'd like to watch this movie, I turn the preview off.

00:04:51

Dustin Zick

No, that's great. That's a good that's a good policy right there.

00:04:52

Killer Kyle

ah you you so yeah

00:04:54

Alex

Yeah, seriously.

00:04:54

Dustin Zick

Like at least you watch enough of it to get interested in it, right?

00:04:55

Killer Kyle

hit Yeah. If it's five seconds and I'm like, I'm in, just turn it right off.

00:05:00

Dustin Zick

Yeah, why waste?

00:05:00

Killer Kyle

Because so many so many yeah so many of those 90s previews just give away

00:05:02

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:05:05

Killer Kyle

And then the Matrix, oh boy. Some would say I'm synonymous with the Matrix in my in my friend group, from which is still the same from high school and from before that.

00:05:17

Killer Kyle

So when the Matrix came out, I went to the theater and I saw it and it changed my life and my world and all those things. And then I was at a hockey game the next day and I couldn't shut the fuck up about it, shockingly. And and it was a midday hockey game and the guy was like, we want to go see it tonight? And I was like, yeah, of course.

00:05:36

Killer Kyle

And then the next day, I was somewhere else, couldn't shut the fuck up about it, <unk>s talking to someone else. And they're like, oh, do you want to go see it tonight? And I was like, absolutely, I want to go see it tonight. Let's go see it tonight. And then the next day, the same thing happened. All different people, ah ah it went on for one more day. When this movie came out, I saw it five straight days in the theater with different people other than my father, who thought saw it three times. Not sure he loves it, but I don't care.

00:06:02

Killer Kyle

I was just like, literally, i was i was I was an apostle leading people to the fountain of youth. like i was i was I couldn't stop talking about it.

00:06:10

Dustin Zick

interesting

00:06:12

Killer Kyle

And I talked about it with enough zeal that people just had to come. It wasn't it was so it was bizarre. It was like, i by the fourth day, I was kind of like, let's see if I can get someone to go see this shit tomorrow.

00:06:23

Killer Kyle

This is great. But yeah, so five times in the first five days it came out. And then I don't know how many times I've seen this movie. Hundreds. It's easily in the hundreds.

00:06:30

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:06:32

Killer Kyle

but you know even on But it has also been a minute, probably like a year or two since I've since i've watched it.

00:06:37

Dustin Zick

Oh, okay.

00:06:39

Killer Kyle

And so it was nice to to check it out again with also like, I'm going to watch this all the way. I'm not going to put it on. And because I'm so familiar with it, maybe walk away, maybe whatever, maybe fall asleep.

00:06:49

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah.

00:06:51

Killer Kyle

I'm going to watch it you know with with intent, another you know magic of the pod. So yeah, that's my familiarity with all this. and Yeah, now it's about you.

00:07:02

Alex

Yeah, all that resonates very deeply as I will get to in a minute. But with Dark City, I had heard about this movie for quite a while. I knew its status is kind of a cult classic.

00:07:15

Alex

I knew director Alex Proyas from The Will Smith, I Robot, which is kind of a mediocre movie with great world building and set design. Kind of a common theme for for him as a filmmaker, I think, at least from those two, but had not seen it until prepping for this app.

00:07:36

Alex

And then 13th Floor was a total, I must have had amnesia because I had no conception of this movie's existence. Dust in Your Text was the first time I had even heard of its title.

00:07:51

Alex

I think I confused it with 13 Ghosts in my head before Googling it.

00:07:54

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah.

00:07:56

Alex

But This was as blind as a blind watch gets me with 13th floor. And then The Matrix, I didn't see it in theaters like you, Kyle, because I was 10 when this came out. and that was you know I could have seen it in theaters, but for whatever reason, I did not.

00:08:16

Alex

Probably saw it on VHS within the next year, and then saw it fanatically on that same VHS over the next 12 months after that.

00:08:17

Killer Kyle

Bye-bye.

00:08:28

Alex

Probably a dozen times. Vivid memories of standing in front of the lockers with my friends, talking about how excited we were for Reloaded.

00:08:39

Alex

the the week before that came out. and It's almost hard to talk about the impact this movie had on me because I kind of lump it together with other works like The Hobbit or Ocarina of

00:08:52

Alex

um I'm waving my nerd flag strong today. But the there are these works that you get exposed to when you're young that almost rewire your brain and they kind of become a prism that you view other works of art through.

00:09:00

Killer Kyle

Mm hmm.

00:09:06

Alex

And I feel like The Matrix was one of those was for me. And it's been a delight in my 20s and 30s because I don't think I go a year or two without rewatching this, whether it's catching it on TV or I saw a theater screening of it last year without revisiting it. And it's been consistently delightful to look at it more critically as an adult and kind of see that Everything that resonated with me as a kid is kind of backed up by just all this amazing fucking craftsmanship and writing and acting and special effects.

00:09:45

Alex

Just fire it on all cylinders. Can't wait to talk about it. Dustin, where do

Deep Dive into The 13th Floor

00:09:50

Alex

you want to kick us off today?

00:09:50

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:09:52

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I was kind of jockeying back and forth between, you know, originally, I think when I came up with this set of films, I was going to assign them in a watch order of like chronological for when they released, which would have been Dark City, 13th Floor, The Matrix, even though like they're very much sandwiched within roughly a year of each other. But i since I didn't do that, I think I want to start with 13th floor and get into dark city and then get into the matrix. Because I think that there's a lot in common between dark city and 13th floor. but Or sorry, with dark city and the matrix. And obviously there's stuff in common with 13th floor. But that's kind of the odd one out if you ask me about the the three of them.

00:10:42

Dustin Zick

So starting with 13th Floor, like I said, I had stumbled across this at the library or something. like I don't remember seeing trailers for this. I don't remember hearing about this when this was like out in theaters or when it got released. It kind of bombed in theaters. I think what was most interesting to me reading up on this movie to like understand the background behind it.

00:11:06

Dustin Zick

A, produced by Roland Emmerich, who did like Independence Day and stuff like that.

00:11:09

Killer Kyle

Saw that.

00:11:10

Dustin Zick

like That jumped out at me. like That was a big name. He's i mean he's still a pretty big name, but like especially in late 90s, huge name to have attached to a project like this. so like i I imagine that his name was thrown around a bunch and like the marketing for it. But I think the most interesting thing about this was to learn that it was loosely based on a book from the 60s which was originally adapted into like a German miniseries in the 70s. Because I think the story here to me is kind of like interesting and somewhat compelling even if the movie

00:11:47

Dustin Zick

Ultimately falls flat and kind of doesn't stick the landing when it comes to like ending in a interesting way but spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie hit pause or find the time stamp in the podcast and jump ahead because i'm just gonna flat out spoil the fact that the movie is a two-layered reality, right?

00:12:10

Dustin Zick

like That's the big twist as you find out that the the fake reality of the 1930s made in 1999, that's established pretty early on, but then the 1999 reality is a fake reality from, spoiler, 2004, or 2024, sorry, this year, which I thought was interesting.

00:12:32

Dustin Zick

And I think that like

00:12:33

Killer Kyle

I did. I liked that. I liked that a little bit. I was like, oh, 24. Great.

00:12:36

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah that's that's fun to have that.

00:12:37

Alex

Yeah, I smiled at that.

00:12:39

Dustin Zick

I should have found out the date. like You see the date on the paper at the end. We should have done this back in June and so we could have actually watched that date. It's like one that yeah like when the Back to the Future dates appeared and everything.

00:12:48

Alex

Synchronicity would have been nice.

00:12:55

Dustin Zick

Yeah, there's no like Jimmy Fallon or Jimmy Kimmel special for this movie like there was for Back to the Future back in 2017. Yeah, I don't know like I didn't Watching this again for like the second time like I think it's interesting someone compelling I found I like the scenes with like the 1930s Like I thought those set pieces were really well done I thought one detail that jumped out at me that I thought was like really kind of

00:13:26

Dustin Zick

interesting and kind of cool is like when you first go back in into or you go into the machine with the characters and you see the 1930s and it's all like kind of loose like light so sepia sepia sepia like sepia tone and you see like so it's all kind of washed out a little bit and everything and

00:13:41

Alex

I want to say seed here.

00:13:51

Dustin Zick

Is that my house dishes in my house that I'm hearing? It might be. So you see that colorization and at first I think I thought like oh it's just like how they're showing it being the 1930s and like it's just like a theatrical style choice but at some point in the movie the main character references that the color grading is off in the virtual reality but that none of the the avatars seem to notice so it's fine and i thought that was like kind of a cool little detail but that was probably the most

00:14:27

Dustin Zick

unique thing that kind of stuck out with me on this movie. like I feel like the lead, Craig Birko, is a very generic seeming actor that wasn't that compelling.

00:14:39

Dustin Zick

Vincent D'Onofrio.

00:14:40

Alex

Wooden is the word that came to mind most often for our protagonist.

00:14:44

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:14:47

Alex

you know He was trying for acting maneuvers that he could not pull off, or that the script called for that he could not pull off.

00:14:52

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:14:54

Alex

Just kind of a you know a blank slate in a way that did not serve the story.

00:15:00

Dustin Zick

No, no, I think it was most interesting when he was in his 1930s character with his little mustache and everything, like just looking somewhat like disheveled generally.

00:15:14

Dustin Zick

I did love the fact when he jacked in and was in the middle of a swing dancing competition and his partner was like, we're going to get disqualified, like screaming at him.

00:15:14

Killer Kyle

I loved.

00:15:25

Alex

That was a nice beat he played that well that was a good moment

00:15:27

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah, and it was pretty great when he just walked away and just like chucked the the number away and stuff but otherwise like it's almost like this movie I mean, I think the fact that it to me it didn't stick the landing was like the most Disappointing part of it like everything the the murder mystery is like kind of compelling enough um, and there's enough twists and turns there like I I even forgot rewatching it like

00:15:45

Killer Kyle

Thank you.

00:15:54

Dustin Zick

I thought that the old dude that got murdered at the beginning was murdered by Vincent D'Onofrio's Avatar from the 30s that came out and that they definitely lead you down that path to think that's the case and then you find out that it's the main guy's like future real human figure and like I just don't feel like they did enough enough depth to his character to explain his motivations for being crazy and There's just a lot going on while also not a lot going on. But i i in my internal lexicon of filmography, like this movie is forever lumped adjacent to The Matrix since it came out the same year and ultimately is dealing with a similar theme, albeit

00:16:44

Dustin Zick

executed in very different ways. And and you know like the story behind that false fake reality being built is obviously very different between the two movies. But I think it's interesting to watch in opposite of The Matrix, knowing how closely adjacent they came out and like how different routes they went in telling these stories of these fake realities.

00:17:10

Dustin Zick

But yeah, I mean, I think that visually it's interesting and and oddly enough, the fact that like all the 1930 stuff looks somewhat dated in terms of the CG, actually, I feel like doesn't hurt it because it's supposed to be like fake. I feel like there is, you know, knowing that it was like a fake reality, like I was more forgiving of the not great special effects, though I'm sure at the time they were pretty good.

00:17:38

Dustin Zick

So there's a lot of rambling. Who wants to jump in and and share your thoughts on this mediocre film?

00:17:44

Killer Kyle

ha I'll jump in a little bit if if you're good.

00:17:48

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:17:49

Killer Kyle

well i did but just to Just to speak to the the woodenness of our main character and the acting, I really liked The turn, and by liked, I mean, thought was hilarious.

00:17:59

Killer Kyle

The turn from a guy who answers every offer of a cigarette with like, no, I don't smoke. I said, as as literally as if someone who's never had a cigarette in their life, i was I was convinced by this.

00:18:11

Dustin Zick

me

00:18:13

Killer Kyle

I was like, oh, he's very atypical. He's never smoked. And then how quickly he started smoking and how voraciously he started smoking, I was like,

00:18:18

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:18:23

Killer Kyle

Okay, I guess, yeah, i'll'll I'll go with this. But it was, to me, it was a very like, I don't know, to speak to all these little moments of like he had he had overcooked the goose on the non-smoking to then turn the dog.

00:18:29

Dustin Zick

Yeah Did he did he even did when he so because he didn't like 99 version of him didn't smoke.

00:18:41

Dustin Zick

He went back into 37 version, who did smoke.

00:18:41

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:18:45

Dustin Zick

But when he was in inhabiting 37's body, he never actually smoked.

00:18:46

Killer Kyle

Yes.

00:18:51

Dustin Zick

so like and and ostensibly like this was something in the like like in the the universe of the movie that i'm assuming is that When you are jacked in so i'm jacked in into 1937 my 1937's uh consciousness is theoretically inhabiting my 1999 body or is like in

00:18:51

Killer Kyle

Correct.

00:19:18

Dustin Zick

in like parallel transit to my 1999 body. And then once that 1937 iteration is disconnected, then it shoots in and wakes up the 1999 body. So all of that is to say that there is no reason Because his at that point, his 1937 version consciousness never inhabited his 99 body.

00:19:43

Dustin Zick

So there's no reason that he should have started smoking. It's not like he had like muscle memory or anything like that for it whatsoever.

00:19:48

Killer Kyle

Nope. It's literally, yeah. They were just like, oh, he's stressed now. Let's show that on screen by having him smoke now. That was it. That was like all that happened.

00:19:56

Dustin Zick

And be very specific about like like literally like not just like idly lighting up, but like constantly

00:19:59

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:20:03

Killer Kyle

but Yes, the scene that kills me the most with this turn, it's when he's in jail and he is smoking and enjoying a cigarette like as as like an 82-year-old Frenchman would do.

00:20:10

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:20:16

Killer Kyle

just like like I have smoked so many cigarettes in my life. like This is how you enjoy it, pensively. thinking like just how lot It was amazing. I couldn't get over that like quickly.

00:20:29

Killer Kyle

He went from I've never smoked to like I've done this for a million years. and I like smoke better than air now. and that' So anyway, yeah but to the movie. Actually, it's funny that you were like, to me anyway, it's it's it's it's funny that you were like, spoiler alert on this on this movie for being like a double, triple, however many layers you want to go into this. because And I was saying this to one of my friends where I was like, I'm really surprised you haven't because he's kind of like, ah ah he's i'll I'll say this, he's affected by a simulation theory.

00:21:01

Killer Kyle

and And so anything that starts with simulation theory, i just kind or anything related to a sit like to a simulated reality, I'm like, oh, the obvious move is to go as deep as possible and go more and more and more layers, because once you open up that can of worms, like for me, it kind of naturally goes there.

00:21:19

Killer Kyle

So I was almost more like waiting for that to happen.

00:21:22

Dustin Zick

Uh-huh.

00:21:23

Alex

Right.

00:21:23

Killer Kyle

with with with like

00:21:24

Dustin Zick

I would still present it ultimately as like the big twist at the end of the movie.

00:21:28

Killer Kyle

Oh, yes, absolutely.

00:21:29

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:21:29

Killer Kyle

yeah Absolutely. I guess I didn't. I didn't feel that it didn't stick the landing like you did. I don't think any of it was like great. I also agree that it was, you know, relative to mediocre, but the landing for me.

00:21:45

Killer Kyle

ah That's right. The landing the ending for me kind of. and it works It worked for me more along the like along the the lines of the movie without it feeling like it wasn't earned because I guess the turn that for me that i don't the thing about this movie that I found found most interesting about the characters is what happens to a person's personality, consciousness, whatever you want to say, morals, moral compass, when they are engaging in this reality type of hopping and how and how that can create depravity just just because of you're in a world that you don't actually have to inhabit. And that to me kind of felt like, you know, the literally the line he says where where he's like, she's like, why you changed? You became this person. Why are you doing these things? And he's like, oh, it's fun.

00:22:34

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:22:34

Killer Kyle

That to me was kind of like enough for for that character to be like, oh no, I've just, I've engaged in too much of this type of stuff and I've lived in worlds that I have absolutely no stakes in and I've killed people and that was fun.

00:22:34

Alex

Right.

00:22:46

Killer Kyle

So I'm just doing more of that.

00:22:46

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I mean I think like that's interesting and compelling. I just wish they would have shown like that's a moment where like I feel like it would have been interesting to me to like see a flashback like see flashbacks to him committing these crimes that he doesn't remember when he was inhabited by 2024 evil version of him or something like I just feel like we got the glimpse of like the ultimate serial killer more or less for literally like three minutes at the end of the movie and It was arguably like the most acting that Craig Bierko did in the entire movie And so maybe he had just topped out like what he was capable of doing so they didn't have him in that like role any longer but that's what I kind of mean by it like not sticking the landing is that like

00:23:14

Killer Kyle

Mm hmm.

00:23:18

Alex

Right.

00:23:36

Dustin Zick

that guy fight like That version of him finally gets unveiled, and we only get a few minutes with it, and then he gets conveniently shot by the Allstate guy, and that's that.

00:23:50

Dustin Zick

like there's just not they're not but There's not a more compelling story beat that happens there that I feel like they could have easily delivered on.

00:23:50

Alex

Right.

00:24:02

Alex

Yeah, I totally agree with with both of those perspectives. Kyle, I thought that that nugget of what happens to your morality when you're engaging in this reality hopping and getting to vicariously do things like, in the case of Hannah and Fuller, sleep with young women and kind of live this like player lifestyle that's discordant with how you normally conduct yourself. But that was only told through expository dialogue. So I really, I felt like that was so underdeveloped.

00:24:35

Alex

throughout the movie, it was like this big driving force like, oh, like Cannon Fuller was plugging into The Matrix so he could he could sleep with these women. But we never really saw the ramifications of that like a couple of them like making kind of coyish comments to his 1930, 37-bit version.

00:24:58

Alex

And with David, who is the 2024 version Craig Bierko, the antagonist who reveals himself at the very, very end of that movie,

00:25:09

Alex

It totally took me out of it how late in the narrative he shows up as an antagonist.

00:25:13

Dustin Zick

Yep.

00:25:14

Alex

And it's like, oh, we're supposed to find him like this big threat when there was nothing teased about his existence. They they really delayed that reveal way too long structurally, that there was this third level of the simulation.

00:25:31

Alex

for it to have any impact for him to be like a menacing figure or for that interesting thread of I'm getting hooked on the vicarious thrill of ah murdering people and it's changing my core personality to carry any weight. And then you add on the melodrama and kind of ham fisted nature of that performance where his eyes are bugging out and he's trying to be menacing, but it's really not coming across. And to me, that kind of

00:26:01

Alex

you know is what you're alluding to, Dustin, when you say the ending falls flat or it doesn't come together is you know that delayed reveal and just kind of the hand-fisted nature of the execution.

00:26:07

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

00:26:14

Alex

And to your point, Kyle, that it teases this interesting thematic thread that never really gets explored in, to me at least, in a satisfying way. So yeah, I liked the 1937 segments of this movie. I also did appreciate that line about the sepia tone and the colorization dust. And I thought that was one of the clever little tricks this movie pulls. I also liked the visuals of when Vincent DiNaprio's character

00:26:48

Alex

Ashton, the 37 version, is kind of driving away from 1937 Los Angeles, and he's passing the oil machinery, and he's driving through the barricades. I thought that was some nice visual storytelling to communicate, like he is passing the thresholds of what they had built for this constructive reality.

00:27:11

Alex

you know And I like that we don't see what he sees until we get the reveal of what Doug Hall sees when it's that you know he sees the screensaver image of just the uncompleted

00:27:23

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:27:24

Alex

And I kind of appreciated how goofy that looked.

00:27:27

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:27:27

Alex

like but it looks real janky and real like you know 90s CGI but it kind of works for the story that they're telling where this is this iterative form of this simulation where yeah if it's an unfinished like kind of edge to this reality it's kind of like janky and shitty so there were there were visual elements that I latched onto and I really like the the reality kind of you know hopping conceit that this movie is based on.

00:28:00

Alex

I liked the visual flash when they have that kind of flutter in their iris and it you know ah ah turns into computer code.

00:28:05

Dustin Zick

Mmm.

00:28:08

Alex

And yeah, there was enough that kept me afloat in following this core mystery of you know what happens with Fuller's murder, you know how deep does this reality go. I will say that as someone who is not very plugged in to you know simulation theory or really You know it knows a lot about it beyond pop culture I was I was deceived so by the like that to two layers deep reveal.

00:28:39

Alex

And to me, it felt a little bit like, oh, this kind of feels like a Twilight Zone episode stretched out to 90 minutes when it should have been like you know a compact little short story.

00:28:51

Alex

And I don't think by the narrative conceit that they built could support the weight of a one hour, 45 minute movie.

00:28:59

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:29:02

Dustin Zick

This could have been really cool as part of like an anthology or something like that.

00:29:08

Killer Kyle

Yeah, I mean, to to your to your point as well, Alex, I feel like, yeah, they they really, they tried as as hard as they could with regard to, you know, bringing that antagonist in with, like you said, just dialogue from Gretchen Moles' character. You know, like she was she was but supposed to be the one that was kind of cluing you in to there's this other actor at play that um she's not happy with or not pleased with or whatever that she has a connection to. So yeah, that it is definitely,

00:29:35

Killer Kyle

It is definitely very thin on the end in that regard. I see what you guys are saying there. But yeah, yeah.

00:29:43

Dustin Zick

I also love the, just like ideal like however, the 2024 idealistic future. like We have round, shiny buildings on the water. That's that's the future. ah the The last thing I think that we can shift after this that I want to call out is like I do really like this movie feels very like, especially compared to dark city and the matrix, like of the three feels very nineties to me, like, stylistically, I think, and part of that is arguably because right.

00:30:16

Killer Kyle

yeah

00:30:21

Dustin Zick

Like dark city, which we'll get to in a second is very, uh, what's the term and our, and our, not and our, and our characteristic and that characteristic.

00:30:27

Killer Kyle

Yeah In that gonna seek you

00:30:28

Alex

Anachronistic, yeah. it's It's deliberately anachronistic. It's out of time.

00:30:31

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah. and And then the Matrix is kind of timeless in a way, whereas this feels like, you know, I thought A, like when he was getting early on, he gets a voicemail at home and his fucking voice...

00:30:49

Dustin Zick

throw that fucking thing out the window literally it's just like you have one new message beep beep beep like just literally like that's what your voicemail thing sounds like when you have a message that is infuriating that felt very 90s i loved the vibe of like when they plug in jack into the 1937 simulation they're laying on a table and there's like

00:31:02

Killer Kyle

Oh yeah.

00:31:11

Dustin Zick

green laser light like right on the surface of their face. And then when he wakes up in 2024 at the end, he just has like an original Xbox gaming headset on and he's just laying in bed with it or whatever.

00:31:23

Dustin Zick

Like I thought that was like like kind of like I mean, felt very dated, but also like they did a good enough job showing that like, yeah, the simulation in a simulation isn't as advanced as like the real world simulation was and stuff.

00:31:24

Alex

It's the future, man.

00:31:39

Dustin Zick

But yeah, like this one of these three movies feels very much like did not age well in terms of like the technology like the way it's portrayed and things like that Let's shift or yeah

00:31:50

Alex

Before we pivot, I want to give a quick a quick shout out to Vincent D'Afrio, who I kind of see as like a Brad Duroff in terms of whether he's in full metal jacket or schlock like, you know, the Jurassic World movies, he's going to be fucking giving it his all, an elevating material.

00:31:57

Killer Kyle

Yes, yes.

00:32:11

Alex

and you know Even though whoever did his hair and makeup in the 99 version was doing him no favors, I thought he crushed all of his roles as Ashton, the the bartender, and really gave a nice air of kind of menace and cunning to those scenes that you know could have otherwise fallen even more flat. And I thought he was a really ah ah really interesting stream presence that elevated those 1937 segments to me. And I thought,

00:32:40

Alex

you know, him at the bar and him kind of in the bathhouse when he is is choking. Doug, you know, were some of the stronger sequences in the movie because of his performance.

00:32:52

Dustin Zick

Oh, for sure, yeah.

00:32:54

Killer Kyle

yeah no yeah

00:32:55

Dustin Zick

Though I do feel like he I was I didn't follow like how he took Ashton's character when he came into 99 and like went into the computer room and was like i I lost like where he was going with that character because he suddenly became, I guess maybe he was just like totally like having an existential crisis and like realized he was, I guess suppose he was told he was like a fake and a fake kind of a thing.

00:33:18

Killer Kyle

Yeah, no idea.

00:33:27

Dustin Zick

So maybe I'm i'm over, over analyzing that piece of it, but I do largely agree.

00:33:32

Killer Kyle

Yeah. yeah

00:33:32

Dustin Zick

I think he was probably the highlight in terms of performances in this movie.

00:33:37

Killer Kyle

Yeah, I mean, I think you can you can you can give a lot of actors a like, hey, you're gonna not know how a door works with a key card. and And a lot of people would not be able to actually do that in a way that feels real and interesting and also kind of funny, but still like, you know, like serious and yeah, just just ah how his yeah like how his characters, his characters that he played had to

00:33:46

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:33:57

Alex

That's a great example.

00:34:03

Killer Kyle

the things they were grappling with mentally, I i loved his, yeah, he was the best part of this movie, like easily. And so it was it was good to see him super young and doing things and knowing what we've gotten since then.

00:34:17

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Well, let's ah jump jump into Dark City.

Exploring Dark City

00:34:23

Dustin Zick

I, like I said, I think I've seen this two or three times. I'm i'm familiar with Alex Proey's work, but not like the crow is his big claim to fame. And I've never seen the crow like it's honestly never really Stylistically, it never appealed to me. And I think that's what kept me away from Dark City. So long as stylistically, it didn't appeal to me. And I don't even remember what compelled me to watch it for the first time. I do remember reading like after The Matrix dropped, like reading a lot of comparisons and and people, you know, sort drawing those those comparison lines. And this Dark City came out in 98.

00:35:04

Dustin Zick

And I think this movie, like, it's fucking weird, but I love it and it's dark and like just unsettling in ways. But there's there's pieces to it that feel, I don't want to say sloppy. I was I noticed early on that it was like.

00:35:22

Dustin Zick

It felt very jumpy. And then I was looking at the IMDB IMDB trivia for it. And apparently it has like one of the the shortest average shot length of any film. And then I was like, well, that makes sense why i like every scene lasts for like a second to a second and a half before it cuts to another like camera angle and stuff like that. So like there's a lot going on here in terms of like the world shifting and things like that and the different characters, but to me this movie is It's weird enough and unique enough and like different enough of whatever it's trying to tell that I feel like It's something I'm i'm disappointed. It took me so long to come back and rewatch it And I don't want to ramble. I'd rather hear what you guys have to say before I like jump in with other thoughts

00:36:14

Killer Kyle

Alex, go ahead.

00:36:16

Alex

Yeah, i I dug this, like like you, Dustin. i I think the visuals are what I latched onto the most strongly. I would love to get some green bathroom tiles like in that opening scene where it's just this deep, moody green. like I fucking love how atmospheric every frame of this movie is.

00:36:38

Alex

And there's a there's a texture to it where it looks great in those kind of big city wide shots where I was reading that they used a lot of models and miniatures to you know really construct this this city. But it also looks really great close up when you've got the kind of film noir vibe that is going for with a lot of the neon lights and the and like the dark dark alleyways and just the angled ways that the buildings are constructed. I was reading that Alex Proyas was inspired a lot by German expressionism when he was like making this movie.

00:37:18

Alex

And it reminded me of Dustin, you and I saw ah cabinet of Dr. Caligari in theaters earlier this year. And just the sets in that movie where it's these kind of like geometrically impossible angles and like you know very narrow streets, like I can see the influence that that had on this movie's visuals. And I really liked how that was incorporated.

00:37:46

Alex

And yeah, the the central mystery here was definitely stronger than in 13th floor. you know i It kept me afloat.

00:37:56

Alex

I'm very glad that we watched the directors cut and instead of the theatrical, because I actually went back and watched the opening to the theatrical cut right after finishing it just to see what was different and was kind of kind of stunned at like how much they lay out up front.

00:38:01

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:38:13

Alex

And in a similar way that we did with 13th Floor, if you haven't seen this movie, you should stop here, skip ahead, because it does have a really nice reveal. But the the twist here is that this city that our protagonist is kind of making his way through.

00:38:33

Alex

is an experiment being conducted by this group of aliens called the strangers where every night at midnight, or not even every night because it's eternal night, but every 12 hours or so, they everyone loses consciousness and they reconstruct the city and re-implant different memories in different people because they're trying to study human nature. Their species is dying and they're trying to get at the core of what it means to be human so they can save their species um because they they operate on like a collective memory versus individualistic subjective memory that that we have.

00:39:16

Alex

and That was another element of this movie I really liked, because I really liked the dichotomy between you know subjective memory and experience and and collective memory. And I like the way that it draws on the audience's collective memory of all of these different genres, because it's pulling in film noir. It's pulling in German expressionism. So I like the way that the themes are acted out through the visuals.

00:39:44

Alex

And the Strangers, I just thought, had a cool visual design where they're kind of Nosferatu looking dudes with the the trench coats. And you know they have this ability called tuning, where they can kind of reshape reality as they wish, which is an ability that that Murdoch has, John Murdoch.

00:40:01

Dustin Zick

What's this thing?

00:40:02

Killer Kyle

Rufus, Rufus C. Wells, John Vernon.

00:40:04

Dustin Zick

Redoc, yeah.

00:40:09

Alex

Yeah, and i um I just really, really enjoyed this. Kyle, what was your take on on Dark City?

00:40:16

Killer Kyle

I watched it and then I wasn't sure how I felt about it. I just kind of let it stew for a bit and I woke up this morning and I really hated it.

00:40:32

Killer Kyle

i think is is of of ah really yeah i just

00:40:32

Dustin Zick

oh

00:40:37

Killer Kyle

for for a couple reasons. I'll say the things I liked first. I did love the sets. I thought the sets were great. And like, they they had they had a very tactile feel to them.

00:40:47

Killer Kyle

Like a very, that, you know, that was, yeah.

00:40:49

Alex

That's a good word.

00:40:49

Dustin Zick

Yeah, there's if if there's one thing this movie does right, it's like the atmosphere. It nails that, just like feeling this eternal darkness kind of stuff.

00:40:57

Killer Kyle

yeah Yeah. And I definitely, and and some of the, and yeah, just some of the, only the bigger sets and like the the the panouts to see the whole city and sort of the smaller panouts to look above the street or whatever, but like you said, like those individual bathrooms, the and the pool room that Keeper Sutherland hangs out in to like get some quietude, all that was was very very good and very pleasing to the eye. And so I appreciated that. And also you know the end when they get to Shell Beach and all those things. like

00:41:32

Killer Kyle

Also, visually, I appreciated that. i For me, like the the why we're watching what we're watching never felt, I never cared. And I don't think they worked hard enough. And I don't know how you could without it being like a big, long show maybe or something like that, where you're going on multiple seasons and going very deep on individual characters.

00:41:59

Killer Kyle

But like I wasn't sure why I was supposed to care about these beings. also wasn't sure why I was supposed to care about the plight of the humans in their experiment. in their experiment And so um kind of and like I'm struggling to find, okay, I guess I feel bad for the humans because I'm a human and so I don't want my reality to be corrupted in this way.

00:42:20

Killer Kyle

However, now we've brought into this world extraterrestrial beings that are living in in a way that we can't even really conceive of in a lot of you know with with the collective memory and the time that they're around and their ability to tune to in reality to to you know to to to fit their needs.

00:42:40

Killer Kyle

So I'm kind of like, na well, maybe then I don't care that the humans are being treated this way, because why wouldn't I maybe I should care more about this random race of strangers. And they also all look like powder to me. All I could think about was powder, the movie powder. It's all I could think about. So like I found it, I found it distracting way that they kind of looked and the tuning. The tuning, I mean, I don't know, I just this It was a little, I get why it had't all had to happen this way or whatever, but it was like weird that he could tune.

00:43:14

Killer Kyle

I didn't find that satisfying as to why he could...

00:43:19

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I mean, I took it as like, and they I don't think they explained this very well, and I don't know that they had to or they needed to, but like, I took it as essentially he evolved to have the same level of power that they do, and because he was the first human to evolve to that point, he suddenly would give them whatever it was that they were searching for, which Kiefer Sutherland says is like a soul or something.

00:43:46

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:43:50

Dustin Zick

Yeah, like that's very kind of nebulous.

00:43:52

Killer Kyle

That's that.

00:43:52

Dustin Zick

I will I will point out really quick, though, that like there was something about the tuning that bothered me.

00:43:52

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:43:53

Alex

Yeah.

00:43:53

Killer Kyle

yeah

00:43:59

Dustin Zick

There's there's a kind of a cool like one of the first midnight like tuning sequences that we see in detail, like it opens or right beforehand you see like a couple like a impoverished couple at their dining room table or kitchen table like.

00:44:14

Killer Kyle

Why'd they have to bring in the candles? Why'd they have to bring in the candles? They had to bring in those candles physically?

00:44:16

Dustin Zick

Yes, exactly.

00:44:18

Killer Kyle

What are we doing here?

00:44:19

Dustin Zick

Yeah, they literally put

00:44:20

Alex

Also, it's such a laborious process. They're like physically bringing shit in. They're physically rearranging people in their chairs. They have to do this with like thousands of people in the city.

00:44:27

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Well, no, but then they literally bring in the candles, put them on the fucking table. But then the table stretches out to be this rich table and all the shit appears on the table when it stretches out.

00:44:38

Dustin Zick

And so I'm like, what what is like I can get because then earlier they're talking like there's like a PA system and an assembly line of the the the others like doing

00:44:39

Killer Kyle

Yes.

00:44:52

Dustin Zick

it Like a PA system's like, oh, tonight we need 28 photo albums and 15 family photos. And it's like, wait, so I could get it if like these super hyper customized things they need to have physical versions of it, but like are these candelabras that they have like personal attachments to? like Like that.

00:45:15

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:45:15

Dustin Zick

And then the other thing that fucking bothered me about that scene and I rewatched it like three times just to make sure I wasn't going crazy. But before they tune, when they show the couple just in the impoverished version of them having their their dialogue, it is such terrible ADR.

00:45:30

Dustin Zick

Like the woman clearly was not that was not her like speaking live on the set. And it just the voice did not match the person. And that felt sloppy to me. And that bothered me.

00:45:42

Alex

I did appreciate that visual gag, though. i really i That was one of the things that like stuck with you about this movie, is the impoverished couple like getting their rags to riches story in a matter of seconds.

00:45:46

Killer Kyle

he

00:45:54

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:45:54

Alex

I thought that was a nice little nice little visual moment.

00:45:55

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:45:57

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:45:58

Killer Kyle

Yeah. So so yeah, it just like it just didn't land for me in terms of like it never the motivations, not the motivations, but the hooks never got into me. for and And I think if the hooks don't get into you, then there's a lot going on that I'm like,

00:46:15

Killer Kyle

I don't know how much I really care. And there's a lot of people, there's a lot of beings being killed.

00:46:19

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:21

Killer Kyle

And, and also like, are we out in space?

00:46:22

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:46:25

Killer Kyle

You know what I mean? Like, we're not like in some little corner of the of the earth where this is happening.

00:46:26

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:46:29

Killer Kyle

So we've, we've then removed these human beings in this experiment from Earth.

00:46:34

Alex

Yeah.

00:46:34

Killer Kyle

And they're floating in space.

00:46:36

Alex

That was definitely the implication.

00:46:36

Killer Kyle

And there was just so

00:46:38

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:46:39

Killer Kyle

Yeah, there was so there was so much of those types of moments. And I do think like it is tricky. And I mean, yeah, the theatrical cut starts with like, here's everything you should care about and go 15 seconds of of just that. And anytime any movie, and and you know, obviously there's there's there's more in the directors, but like anytime any movie starts like that, I think it's really, it's difficult for it to,

00:47:05

Killer Kyle

Come to fruition in in all that it's trying to accomplish so I just yeah there were some interesting I did like some of the some of the conversations.

00:47:15

Killer Kyle

Some of the conversations between Seawall and Rufus Seawall, John john and and Jennifer Connolly's character, I thought were interesting.

00:47:16

Dustin Zick

Thank you.

00:47:22

Killer Kyle

You know what I mean? About like, well, what if we're not these people at all? What if you don't love me? What about you know all that type of stuff? that was that's That sort of baseline questioning when your ri foundation of your reality has been taken away from you.

00:47:36

Killer Kyle

That had some interesting, but that was also, we're talking about like two, three minutes of the movie.

00:47:39

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:47:40

Killer Kyle

ah ah And so there, there wasn't enough there for me.

00:47:41

Alex

Yeah.

00:47:42

Killer Kyle

I didn't, I didn't think the villains were like that interesting or, you know, so there was just, I was i was looking for something to grasp onto. And really what it was, was the sets and the, and the the, you know, I honestly think I wouldn't be surprised if and there was some choice, some, some intentional choice, either on the editing floor or on the director floor of both.

00:48:04

Killer Kyle

about how quickly those cuts are because that's kind of what where the world is, right?

00:48:06

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:48:08

Killer Kyle

Like it's trying to, you know, yeah.

00:48:09

Dustin Zick

Oh, for sure, for sure.

00:48:11

Alex

Right, fragmented memories, things happening quickly.

00:48:11

Killer Kyle

So, that yeah, that all that else that' all that all seemed to to track and i did I didn't think that was pretty

00:48:13

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:48:19

Killer Kyle

Yeah. And then I also liked, after I looked up what this director had done, just to kind of get more, whatever, when there's a theater scene towards the end of the movie where they're outside on the theater, on the the marquee is a short film that he did, i that I thought was, yeah, I was just like, whatever, I can't remember what it's called, Green Something, Green Room or Green, yeah, I can't remember what it's called.

00:48:35

Dustin Zick

Okay.

00:48:38

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:48:42

Killer Kyle

But I was like, oh, that's a short film you did like 10 years before you did Dark City. And I would say, The Crow, just to just put a thing in there about The Crow, because she's not seen that. I don't i haven't seen The Crow in maybe 20 years.

00:48:54

Killer Kyle

I'm not sure if I would like it as an adult. It seems like a very specific angsty teenage movie of a time and place.

00:48:57

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah.

00:49:02

Dustin Zick

Yeah, well, they just came out with the remake this year that tanked too, so.

00:49:02

Alex

Yeah.

00:49:05

Killer Kyle

yeah Yeah, I don't think I'm seeing that.

00:49:07

Alex

i do I do also need to see The Crow. And Kyle, one thing I i wanted to you know bring to both of you guys, but you gave me a good entry point, which is you know you were you were looking for something to latch onto this movie. And I think that sometimes the critical recep response to movies can be more interesting than parts of the movies themselves.

00:49:28

Alex

And I think it's really interesting here that Roger Ebert is like such a champion of Dark City, where he did he did six director commentaries in his life, DVD commentary, excuse me, and one of them was for Dark City and In his kind of intro to his DVD commentary he writes that,

00:49:50

Alex

i believe more than ever that dark city is one of the great modern films it preceded the matrix by a year and on the smeller budget with special effects that owe as much to imagination astroch technology and did what the Matrix wanted to do earlier and with more feeling.

00:50:07

Alex

I think that's sidebar a totally batshit perspective. the same that that Dark City is somehow more emotionally evocative than the Matrix, but he does say that the point

00:50:17

Dustin Zick

I wouldn't disagree with that. I wouldn't disagree with the more emotion than the matrix, not by much, but I feel like the the matrix is maybe a little more a little less about intrapersonal relationships.

00:50:22

Killer Kyle

o We'll get into it.

00:50:33

Alex

Sure. And that's that's Ebert's point. And he says, the poignancy of Dark City emerges in its love stories. And he talks about the scene where John and Emma are talking and Emma is saying, you know, I love you. You can't fake something like that. And I did think that was a nice moment, but it felt It felt too thin for me, kind of like you were saying, Kyle, with you know those dialogue scenes taking up such comparatively small amounts of runtime, given how much of this movie is dedicated to the pure world building and to the pure mystery and the mechanics of how this experiment is being conducted.

00:51:10

Alex

I think that undercurrent is there but for this movie to have the impact on me that it did you know on on either i would have wanted to see more of that that romance and those interpersonal dynamics because you get that cool line towards the end where. Murdock says to. The you know one of the strangers where he's like, you know, you were looking You know for the secrets of human nature in the wrong place any any taps is hard, right?

00:51:34

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah, for like opinion or not, yeah.

00:51:39

Alex

You know taps his head So, you know, it's a head versus heart thing, but I wanted I wanted more of that heart You know in the dialogue and in those character interactions.

00:51:41

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:51:49

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I think.

00:51:49

Killer Kyle

Also, why are we, why are we, why are we just using knives? What is the deal with the knives that like the, the insistence on that to me, I was just also distracted by it.

00:51:54

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:51:56

Alex

I

00:51:58

Dustin Zick

Does anybody have a gun in this movie?

00:51:58

Killer Kyle

I was like, where does anyone or like, I don't know.

00:51:59

Dustin Zick

Are there guns in this movie?

00:52:01

Killer Kyle

What about a big old sword? Like, why is it tiny knives?

00:52:04

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense.

00:52:05

Alex

more more menacing, easier to hide under your trench coat.

00:52:07

Dustin Zick

I mean, you can't use you can't use a gun in in a spaceship because then you might the compression decompress the whole thing or whatever.

00:52:15

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:52:17

Dustin Zick

I did read in the... the like um i trying not to just be like random trivia bomb, but this is relevant. In the IMDb trivia section, it talked about how the scene when William Hurt, Inspector Bumstead, and one of the others like fall out into space, and they go through a force field,

00:52:38

Dustin Zick

And then they like die. Like that was added. The force field effect wasn't originally going to be in there, but like test screening audiences were a little confused by the facts.

00:52:46

Killer Kyle

Mm.

00:52:47

Dustin Zick

So like that was a way of being like, Oh, like in this force field, we have air or whatever. I thought I remember when I first saw this like I did not know the twist of like them being like on this spaceship or whatever And the whole like I love the whole idea of like I want to go to shell beach this place I remember and I love the like recurring thing of him asking people how to get there and they're like, oh, yeah, of course you just go I i'm give me a second and like nobody can remember like I love that they all

00:53:19

Killer Kyle

Mmhmm.

00:53:22

Dustin Zick

think they know how to get there and then when they're pressured to think about it they don't remember versus like I don't know I've never heard of it kind of a thing like they've all heard of it but they've never like they can't verbalize how to get there or even like actually remember how to get there

00:53:32

Alex

Right.

00:53:38

Dustin Zick

And i so I love like that kind of stuff. I love when Murdoch tells Bumstead like when they're having like that kind of interrogation and he was like, you know, when was the last time you remember seeing the sun? like and And you could see like the gears like going and in William Hurt's head. And then when they go to find Shell Beach and they take the route that Dr. Schreiber for sutherman Sutherland tells them to take,

00:54:03

Dustin Zick

and they go up the stairwell and they open the door and you see what looks like the beach and but from like the perspective of halfway down the stairwell and Dr. Schreiber is at the base of the stairs and he knows the truth but he even seems surprised at first when you see the beach through the doorway and then they step through and it's just a poster for Shell Beach.

00:54:25

Dustin Zick

And like I remember just as a kid being like blown away By that idea felt like them breaking down the brick wall And and I think in my head like it was exploring the reality of like oh literally It's just like one layer of bricks and and then you're out in like space like that's kind of fucking terrifying Um, that that whole like kind of reveal was super cool to me.

00:54:41

Alex

Right.

00:54:49

Dustin Zick

I do like I I can see the powder thing, Kyle. like I see that for sure. I think the the others, like the main three, Mr. Hand, Mr. Book, Mr. Wall, and then like the kiddo, that like the main four that are following him around, are much kind of creepier than like when you see the masked group of them and they're like just having weird like talking to their leader and stuff.

00:55:17

Dustin Zick

I feel like a very big weak spot for me in this movie is like the final battle between Murdoch and the the main guy.

00:55:25

Alex

Yeah, the telekinetic mind battle is pretty goofy and kind of weirdly executed.

00:55:29

Dustin Zick

Yeah, it's. Yeah, and it just feels too, it's like somebody's studio notes were like, you need a big action set piece, kind of a thing that just doesn't jive with like the rest of the movie. And I don't know, I don't have an idea for a better resolution of defeating them. Obviously he needed to.

00:55:51

Dustin Zick

But I'm sure there was one that was maybe more in fitting with the rest of the movie. The other piece that always bothered me about this, not enough to make me hate it, but that like always bothered me is like Kiefer Sutherland just like annoys the shit out of me in this.

00:56:06

Dustin Zick

Like his voice affectation is so obnoxious with no reason.

00:56:06

Killer Kyle

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Awesome.

00:56:10

Alex

He was making some acting choices when he was in this movie and they did not pan out.

00:56:13

Dustin Zick

Yes.

00:56:17

Dustin Zick

No. So like that, that I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, what is why? Like, and there's an opportunity in the narrative when they show the flashback of him removing his own memories, which I think is when his eye got jacked up.

00:56:35

Dustin Zick

At least that's how I took it based on that scene. But like they could have done something to show like why his like voice got weird or something. But, um, yeah, that kind of,

00:56:43

Alex

I mean, I like the broad outline of his character. I like the idea of like kind of a nebbish, know, psychologist who's been co-opted into carrying out the dirty work for these aliens and kind of hates himself for what he's doing.

00:56:56

Alex

Like there's there's a cool character there, but yeah, the performance and like the voice affectation, total, totally bizarre.

00:56:59

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:57:03

Dustin Zick

Just nothing. No. I think it may be part.

00:57:05

Killer Kyle

Yeah, Oh, just having to having to like being able to see his character have to take his own memories as as this like a sacrifice to to this role.

00:57:07

Dustin Zick

Go ahead.

00:57:17

Killer Kyle

I thought it was also like an interesting moment. However, it all it all gets undercut for me because they're in this fake world, or this world this world that you know what I mean?

00:57:24

Dustin Zick

<unk> Yeah.

00:57:26

Killer Kyle

like the The betrayal of humanity has so much more weight when they're on Earth than when they're in this place I don't understand, I guess.

00:57:35

Dustin Zick

Well, and it also begs a question to something that I don't feel like is ever resolved in the movie and I feel like could be stronger for it, but maybe not. It's like when there is the reveal, either when they're showing them on the space station or earlier on, I think it's before that.

00:57:55

Dustin Zick

Maybe it's after that. No, maybe it's before that that like Schreiber explains. Yeah, it's before the they see find out they're on the space station that Schreiber talks about them trying to survive their race or whatever.

00:58:10

Dustin Zick

If they could have done some sort of flashback showing them abducting humans or something like because like that narrative makes sense to me.

00:58:17

Alex

I was craving that too.

00:58:19

Dustin Zick

if they if they plucked humans off of Earth and because they're a you know fledgling, not fledgling, but like they're a dying species of extraterrestrials, like they don't have a homeworld anymore. So this is their hub floating through space.

00:58:38

Dustin Zick

that would all like That's my head cannon for it. To put that to screen, to do it in a way that does it justice, is more than like a two two-minute throwaway kind of thing. and so like Is that the best use of the movie's time to like show that background and showing people being abducted? But it begs the question, like not having that background of, like were all these people or many of these people inhabiting the the world of Dark City,

00:59:08

Dustin Zick

Were they born there, like on the space station or were they abducted from Earth? Because to your point, Kyle, like if they were just born there and this is the existence they've only ever had, not really that interesting compared to or yeah I guess it could be interesting.

00:59:25

Dustin Zick

if that was directly told. like right like These are like third-generation, abducted humans that have been just bred into this space zoo kind of thing.

00:59:29

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:59:36

Alex

Right.

00:59:37

Dustin Zick

All of that, I think, is a missed opportunity to give you more of a foundation to care about these people. But to all of that point, if they were bred into this space zoo and they're like X generations removed from being abducted from Earth, they have no real memories to speak of, less compelling than you were abducted, you truly grew up on Shell Beach, your memory was completely wiped, but somehow this figment continued to burst up to the top sort of a thing.

00:59:54

Killer Kyle

Yes. Yeah.

00:59:56

Alex

Right. Right I mean we're talking about stakes here we're talking like what are the narrative and dramatic stakes and without knowing what the confines of this experiments are are we talking a couple thousand people that populate the city are we talking like a couple million like it's not established enough at your point Kyle like to care about kind of the

01:00:30

Alex

the plight of these humans and I think for me it was my make curiosity was the main emotion that was carrying me along as a viewer and that was enough to sustain me and there were some cool thematic things going on but I think you raised some really good points about kind of the lack of concrete drama and stakes to really get us invested in what's happening beyond kind of the murder mystery of uh you know did Murdoch kill those women and what is happening with these weirdos in the trench coats yeah

01:00:59

Dustin Zick

Yeah,

01:01:04

Dustin Zick

yeah I guess

01:01:04

Killer Kyle

Yeah, I actually, I never even cared about that mystery. Like not for a so but second.

01:01:08

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah, that was so buried in terms of like, like, I mean, that was one thing that 13th Floor had over this in terms of the murder, like the killings and stuff is like, I actually bought for a little bit that Craig Birko, like, thought he might have killed these people kind of a thing, whereas, like,

01:01:26

Dustin Zick

The the and visually they're doing some cool stuffs with the killing with the swirls and whatnot, but they never really come back to that too heavily unless I missed it like there's just yeah, I did like the idea though and and this speaks to the idea that that Subplot or whatever was kind of buried in it when I think it was mr. Hand that took John Murdock's memories or whatever, so he could try and find him better.

01:01:58

Dustin Zick

at the very or or I think when they kidnapped them at the the poster for Shell Beach, Mr. Hand says, oh, I've become the man that you were supposed to be, Mr. Murdock. And that him saying that i'm I have like the mind of a serial killer now, because we were supposed to imprint the serial killer mind on you, but you woke up halfway through it. that was what caused you to wake up with missing your memory is Dr. Schreiber didn't finish implanting the serial killer memory in you, but now it's in Mr. Hands kind of a thing. I thought there was something cool there, not very well executed, and didn't really pan out for any purpose, but maybe kind of explained why he, as

01:02:42

Dustin Zick

an extraterrestrial suddenly had a little more personality and and maliciousness to him than he previously did throughout the movie. The last thing, unless you guys have anything else about this one, I really just want to call out briefly is how gross the water is in the tub when he wakes up in the beginning.

01:03:01

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:03:02

Dustin Zick

It's like like

01:03:02

Alex

That poor goldfish man.

01:03:03

Alex

He gives that goldfish like a slow death by putting him back in that tub.

01:03:07

Dustin Zick

Yeah, it's like purplish reddish or whatever that you were talking about that scene alex like the tile on the the bathtubs and stuff I have or i'm the like in the bathroom I have this on blu-ray and watching it for the podcast was the first time I watched the blu-ray I have It is one of the coolest blu-ray menus I can think of and and I feel like more and more movies I mean, I think it's probably from like 2013

Analyzing The Matrix

01:03:31

Dustin Zick

2014 But more and more like movie blu-ray menus are like just generic and like boring but this one has like the the opening menu is like a special font for like play scene select and whatnot, but it's that's like overhead scene of him in the bathtub and the bathroom and the light is just swinging back and forth and

01:03:42

Alex

For.

01:03:54

Dustin Zick

in perpetuity on that menu. And then if you go into the options menu or the extras menu or whatever, it cuts to a billboard of Shell Beach with like the girls like moving hand or whatever.

01:04:08

Dustin Zick

And like, it's, I'm like, this is a cool Blu-ray, like somebody put time and effort into designing this menu, which isn't a given these days with movie releases.

01:04:17

Killer Kyle

It's a lost art.

01:04:19

Dustin Zick

Yes, absolutely.

01:04:19

Killer Kyle

It's a lost art. I mean, in general, even before Blu-ray, some DVD menus, they were awesome, and some were the worst.

01:04:25

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:04:26

Killer Kyle

And I always remember the ones that, for me, were the worst, where it's like, oh, it's two, three in the morning whenever they put on a movie, we'll fall asleep, and then you wake up at 6 a.m., and it's just on repeat blasting you.

01:04:36

Dustin Zick

Oh yeah, yeah, there's a there's a great tick tock I saw.

01:04:36

Alex

glaring.

01:04:38

Killer Kyle

Oh, yeah. Shout out to Pirates of the Caribbean on that one.

01:04:41

Dustin Zick

just it There's a great TikTok I saw recently that was like, oh, like, throw back to like, you fall asleep at a friend's sleepover in like 1997, and then you wake up at three zero in the morning to like the Austin Powers menu, being like, groovy, baby!

01:04:59

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:04:59

Dustin Zick

Just over and over again, like at full volume. Let's shift over to our highlight to The Matrix. I will say one thing and then I'll kick it to you guys. because so i had It's probably been a decade since I've watched The Matrix. It has been less than a decade since I've watched any of the sequels. I watched the most recent one within a year of it coming out. I've revisited, reloaded, and revolutions at least once or twice.

01:05:31

Dustin Zick

This this is not about the sequels, but I think there's a lot to hate about the sequels and some things to like about the sequels. And depending on which one at which point, like my opinion of them varies very wildly. And I think that clouded my memory for this movie because rewatching it, it is It is 25 years later. It has aged beautifully. It is as taught and intense and looks gorgeous. And the cast of characters is fun. And there's scenes that I kind of forgot happened and things like that.

01:06:11

Dustin Zick

I just like, I think it i in my head I was like, oh, this movie probably hasn't aged great. It'll probably feel very kind of like, I think the greatest, the the the worst thing about The Matrix is the fact that the being red pill idea has been co-opted by like the the bro movement kind of a thing which is really not an indictment on the movie at all or anything like that but like that's just kind of a pity that that that concept has been hijacked by that movement but yeah I think it just it's it blew me away how well this movie aged and how it does not feel like

01:06:51

Dustin Zick

Out of in the way that 13th floor feels 1999 up the wazoo this feels like yeah, obviously like Cell phones don't look like that anymore That's really the only thing that feels of the time is the long big cell phone kind of a thing uh, but the rest of it just is so fucking fun and so good and the characters are so great and morpheus is still fucking awesome and Keanu Reeves is great, and Hugo Weaving, oh my god, dude.

01:07:23

Dustin Zick

Like, I think this, oh, yeah.

01:07:24

Alex

one of the best villains of all time.

01:07:27

Dustin Zick

And I think this is the first movie that, definitely for Hugo Weaving, that I was ever, like, exposed to him. even for Lawrence Fishbourne, I think this is the first time I ever, like, paid attention to him in a movie, and, like, ever since, like,

01:07:41

Dustin Zick

Fucking baddest ass guy on the planet as Morpheus and like just you don't get any more iconic than that kind of a character What do you guys have on this one?

01:07:53

Killer Kyle

Alex, go ahead, man. I want to hear what you have to say.

01:07:55

Alex

Yeah, I got I got thoughts. So the opening minute of this movie is something I appreciated more this rewatch because we were talking about like the love story elements. And I don't think any elements this movie are like are weak, weak.

01:08:13

Alex

But I think for me in past viewings, one of the less robust elements was the Neo and Trinity romance and kind of that big climactic kiss moment that revives Neo. And they set that up in the first line of dialogue when you have Trinity and Cypher talking over the code of the matrix. And they're talking about how Cypher is kind of poking fun at Trinity and being like, oh, like you're watching him. You like him, huh? So like she is already you know falling in love with with Neo as a character before they even meet in the Matrix, let alone in the real world. So I think that was like an elegant bit of character relationship building that I neglected to notice in previous viewings.

01:09:05

Dustin Zick

Why is she sitting in that room just randomly talking to Cypher though? so like That was my only gr- I agree with you. like i I paid attention to that dialogue, I feel like, for the first time ever watching this movie and was like, oh yeah, this like foreshadows a lot. But contextually, it makes no sense when you think about like the fact that she's using, I think she's using a hard line, but she's not unplugging from the matrix. So there's no reason to use a hard line to talk to him. And also just having like an idle chat with him like that versus

01:09:39

Dustin Zick

I mean, I guess it makes sense knowing his story, right? He's probably baiting her into that chat to try and get her caught.

01:09:47

Alex

And I get the impression that she was also doing, like, other hacker shit while she was talking to Cypher.

01:09:51

Dustin Zick

Maybe, yeah.

01:09:53

Alex

Like, you know, she's like...

01:09:53

Dustin Zick

I guess that would make sense too.

01:09:53

Killer Kyle

Yeah, for for for me also, I feel like there's a...

01:09:58

Dustin Zick

Sorry, I didn't mean to just shit on the scene that you're talking about.

01:10:01

Alex

No, totally.

01:10:01

Killer Kyle

No, no, no.

01:10:02

Alex

You're good.

01:10:04

Killer Kyle

It's an interesting point and that that that you can very easily take for granted.

01:10:05

Alex

It is.

01:10:08

Killer Kyle

For me, there is once... The way I always thought about it is that once once you add the the one into it, that the the agents are so much they care so much more. And there's a level of like cold war to this world, where where my my impression is that all these people are spending time going into the matrix to learn.

01:10:38

Killer Kyle

And to to be there without the oh they're chasing us because we have this person they think can take down the whole thing so that's kind of why she's there is because spending time in it is part of what they do as a matter of course as a matter of like.

01:10:53

Killer Kyle

is this is how we there.

01:10:53

Alex

They're soldiers, it's part of their training, right?

01:10:55

Killer Kyle

Yeah, exactly.

01:10:56

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:10:56

Killer Kyle

it's It's part of their training. It's part of just general reconnaissance. It's part of knowing like, you know, it's kind of like you you know more about what the agents can do, the more you spend time in there and all that stuff and knowing how to evade them and this and that like, it definitely it has has, you know, there's danger to it.

01:11:11

Killer Kyle

But I, I guess I just I took always took that scene as, oh, they just have to spend some time in there to do this to be a part of this to like, yeah,

01:11:19

Dustin Zick

Yeah, no, and that makes sense. that Like yeah my my question wasn't so much like why is she in the matrix? It's why is she like using a hard line to talk to Cypher when she's could just be like in an Internet cafe on a cell phone talking to him because ostensibly the cell phone.

01:11:38

Dustin Zick

No, I guess there is one point where she says.

01:11:40

Killer Kyle

i think I think it's, I think it's Cypher talking to her because he is interested in her, right?

01:11:46

Dustin Zick

OK.

01:11:47

Killer Kyle

Like that line in the end where he's like, oh, I always thought I was in love with you.

01:11:48

Dustin Zick

okay

01:11:50

Killer Kyle

I think Cypher is bored. I think Cypher is like dissatisfied with the world.

01:11:53

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:11:55

Killer Kyle

And so he's doing things that are inherently stupid, like just talking.

01:11:55

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:12:00

Killer Kyle

And she's the most interesting person to talk to because she is the woman.

01:12:00

Alex

Right.

01:12:02

Dustin Zick

Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

01:12:06

Alex

Right. And she's doing the recon work. Yeah, Dustin, to your points about Lawrence Fishburne's badassery, one thing that always sticks out to me but really jumps out with this viewing is just

01:12:09

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:12:19

Alex

He gives a masterclass in delivering expository dialogue.

01:12:22

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah.

01:12:23

Alex

like The way that he delivers every bit of information that you learn about the Matrix, it's become iconic and meme-ified for a reason. like i can I can hear his voice in my head like you know thinking about just dozens of lines where he just you know drips with like pure, just

01:12:32

Dustin Zick

oh Yeah.

01:12:43

Alex

I don't even know how to how to describe it, but it's just so captivating.

01:12:44

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:12:45

Dustin Zick

yeah

01:12:47

Alex

And I think a good counter example is. The only bit of dialogue that came close to getting me to roll my eyes was another moment that's become iconic and meme-ified.

01:13:00

Alex

And it's the little kid at the Oracle yeah who's like, there is no spoon.

01:13:02

Dustin Zick

with the spoon.

01:13:05

Alex

And and like to me, that was an example of like an actor, in this case, a child actor, like no shade on them.

01:13:06

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:13:12

Alex

they They did a fine job. But they're delivering an inherently goofy line without the gravitas that someone like Laurence Fishburne has. so It didn't take me out of the movie but it was probably the closest line of dialogue in the whole two hours and sixteen minutes that you know made me go.

01:13:31

Alex

hu I could see how that could be. It was just on the border of you know sincere and profound and goofy. And I think it was like the lack of that gravitas that you get from someone like Fishburne or Carrie en masse, delivering those kind of, yeah, just out there ideas.

01:13:47

Dustin Zick

yeah one Yeah. I think too what what adds to that in that moment is the fact that A, that Kidd has a foreign accent, British, it sounded like to me, and but hes but he's also wearing like

01:14:03

Killer Kyle

Kind of, yeah.

01:14:08

Dustin Zick

Asian, South Asian apparel. And i I guess I always took that as to be like a representation of a child from somewhere else on the planet. It could be the one or something, but I think that just adds to the surreality and like taking you, I mean, which is ironic to say that like that felt surreal in this movie that's all about of fake reality, but like it it it was x extraneous to the rest of the the world in a way that was a little bit jarring.

01:14:45

Dustin Zick

and that yeah i agree like That line is corny enough that without having someone like Fishborne deliver it in the quality that he can, it kind of loses some of its potential weight and punch, which speaks volumes to the fact that it still is one of the more iconic parts of the movie.

01:14:46

Killer Kyle

yeah

01:15:03

Alex

right that we all remember about this movie

01:15:06

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:15:07

Killer Kyle

Yeah, I mean, I always kind of was able to explain away the the sort of weirdness of that character. with, uh, with just the idea that, I don't know, what are you some seven year old and you're told that you might be the one, you know what I mean?

01:15:21

Dustin Zick

even

01:15:22

Killer Kyle

And like, you're in the, you're, you're hanging out with all the people that might be the one. Like, I don't know. I just, I was always just like, yeah, these kids are going to be fucked up, man. Like, I don't know. what What is this, what is this weird daycare you're at with the Oracle?

01:15:34

Killer Kyle

and how long are you there? And all these just, you know, so, but I, I do, agree I do agree.

01:15:37

Alex

Right.

01:15:38

Killer Kyle

Yeah. the I don't want to, if you have more to say because I don't want to necessarily jump in, I feel like this is a tricky one because we all love this movie. We've all seen this movie.

01:15:48

Killer Kyle

We're not, there's not.

01:15:48

Alex

right

01:15:51

Killer Kyle

Here's what I, this is the best goddamn movie that's ever been made. This is, it is so good on so many levels. And I was watching it this time, having not seen it in a while.

01:16:04

Killer Kyle

And I'm going to share a couple of stories from outside The Matrix. But I just like I'm sitting there watching it to all your points Dustin about how it's aged how it looks not only visually but story and like where we've gone from 1999 to now It's just it's like the it's the greatest vintage wine that exists in movie making I just like I cannot get enough of it I'm lapping it up and I do think that the the sequels can kind of cloud it a little bit if you're not careful and to that point

01:16:30

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:16:32

Killer Kyle

So I am i am from, there was I was friends with the local critic in in in where I live, the time I lived in New York.

01:16:42

Killer Kyle

And something I will never forgive him for, rest in peace. Happy to, you know, we gotta bring it up in the pod. Sorry, Jack, but Jack Garner for the Gannett News Service, he gave The Matrix a five out of 10 when it came out.

01:16:54

Dustin Zick

Oh.

01:16:57

Killer Kyle

And that's one point that's one point for every day I saw it in a row when I first saw this movie. and and And then Reloaded and Revolutions came out. He gave both of those movies tens out of tens.

01:17:10

Killer Kyle

And there was a good period of my life where I was...

01:17:12

Alex

Those are some hot cakes.

01:17:13

Killer Kyle

i mean Yes. so So hot takes. and there was there was every i mean And I found myself at many dinner parties, many holiday parties with this man. And there was maybe a five-year period where I just would always go up to him and be like, do you want to talk about that five on The Matrix? I think we need to talk about that five on The Matrix more. like to the to the point To the point where when I was old enough, he was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I won't bring it up anymore. But anyway, it's just like a very funny to like, it's like to what you're saying about dark city and Roger Ebert and all those things. Like it's how how the public consumption of things and and you know, letting it letting it age I could see how maybe the matrix would be like jarring to someone at first and they wouldn't really have utter a good experience. And then by the time you're into the world, whatever reloaded and revolutions like dazzles you visually or whatever. But anyway,

01:18:04

Killer Kyle

yeah What I love, what I was able to kind of like enjoy the most about this viewing, doing 982 or whatever it is i is, is how every line of dialogue is dripping with foreshadowing in a way that is still not hokey.

01:18:24

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:18:24

Killer Kyle

and like is so well, it's just definitely executed. the The line that really got me this time, and I think it was because I was watching the subtitles, which i I wouldn't often do with this movie in particular, because I know every line I thought, is was when he's in his meeting with the Oracle,

01:18:42

Killer Kyle

And, you know, she does the amazing thing where she just looks at his mouth and like holds his head and looks at his hands. and I mean, the the whole, the whole seed there is incredible. and yeah I just love the, like, what's really going to bake your noodle later is if you would have broken it, if I didn't tell you.

01:18:55

Alex

Such a great line.

01:18:56

Killer Kyle

But like, that's, that's amazing. Such a great line. She is incredible. Like, I could i could watch her read the phone book, I don't even care, and smoke cigarettes and eat cookies. But the wine that killed me this time that I had never actually heard is when she takes his hands and walks away like nope sorry kid you're not the one looks like you're waiting for something and he's like waiting for what and she goes your next life baby i don't know which is exactly the end of the movie which is exactly the end of the movie like i would and i i i said hold on i paused it i revoked it i watched it again i was like God damn it, man. like that and like Every use of the word Jesus, or or you like when when Cypher says, you scared the bejesus out of me, like every single moment of dialogue is so charged with this world and what's coming and what's going to happen. and like

01:19:44

Killer Kyle

In a way that i just don't even know i'm not surprised is written by two people in conjunction because like how can you keep it all together and be able to like you know it's not let that run wild in a way that kind of falls apart or just seems.

01:19:59

Killer Kyle

I don't know, like it just man, every single line of dialogue, just absolutely saturated with foreshadowing. It's incredible. And I think, you know, coming to your point as well, Alex, just just going back to what you said initially, when we started talking at the beginning of the pod, movies that are like the things that are just burned into your brain as as like, this is part of my DNA.

01:20:21

Killer Kyle

this movie and like how i then this is This movie asked all the questions that my high school education was not asking. And it got deep into all that stuff that my high school education was not asking, which is certainly what led me to like seek out philosophy and take my whole life on that pathway of you know essentially you know what this movie can can be boiled down to, which is like a lot of Plato's Republic, like a lot of just, we're seeing the shadows, we're not seeing the things in themselves. And, uh, and then going out from there, but man, just, ah, all the fight scenes, all, all all the dialogue.

01:20:56

Killer Kyle

I, I thought the, the kind of the Neo and Carrie and Moss relationship was a little bit even better fleshed out this time, but man, there, there is not a weak character in this thing from like mouse.

01:21:06

Dustin Zick

I, it's got, it's got like the all time best turncoat character.

01:21:09

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:21:12

Dustin Zick

Like of as far as I'm concerned, like Cypher's like one of the best traders and ever put the celluloid, like what a fucking terrible thing to do.

01:21:16

Killer Kyle

yeah

01:21:19

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:21:19

Alex

Yeah.

01:21:22

Dustin Zick

And like, what, what a great role just like a lapping up like that.

01:21:28

Alex

Joe Pantoneviano just crushes that performance and I think what sells it is you can see the motivation that someone would want to go back to the way things were.

01:21:32

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:21:40

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:21:41

Alex

It's such a shitty selfish thing to do, but it's human. There's like something fundamentally human about wanting to Pull the wall back over your eyes and be like i don't like this new future it is harder than my old life i would like to go back please i don't care what i have to do to get there.

01:21:59

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:22:00

Killer Kyle

Yeah, and I mean, I think to get to the point about Cypher being so goddamn good, no matter what that what he does, acting wise, preview before the Matrix or after, that's the only character I see.

01:22:13

Dustin Zick

Oh, yeah.

01:22:13

Killer Kyle

And there's certain there, you know, there's certain characters that that, yeah, it just it just yeah, I like I just I can't I i can only see that character and there's there's some

01:22:15

Dustin Zick

Baby stay out. Cypher from Matrix.

01:22:26

Killer Kyle

There's some roles that are like that, but this is that's one of the most, I don't know, for me, it just sticks. Like I can't think outside that box.

01:22:33

Alex

Yeah, I mean as like a huge Tolkien nerd who adores the Lord of the Rings trilogy and like talk about rewiring your brain and being a seminal you know movie experience in your life, I still cannot see Hugo Weaving as Elrond takes me out of those scenes every fucking time because of how iconic he is as Agent Smith.

01:22:53

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:22:53

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:22:54

Alex

like, just wedded to that character forever. Yeah, I want to go back to the Oracle scene real quick, Kyle, because there was a line there that jumped out at me this time.

01:22:57

Killer Kyle

And I, yeah.

01:23:03

Alex

And it's it's the way that the Matrix undercuts Neo in a way that the sequels don't. And like they find the humor in whether it's Keanu's performance or the writing, like there's the iconic moment where like he has the whoa and he brings in like Ted Theodore Logan from Bill & Ted and is like, I can do that here even in this sci-fi masterpiece. there's also a great line where he's talking to the Oracle and you know, he, she says something about like, Trinity's love for him, and he says, oh, who would that be?

01:23:40

Alex

And she's like, not very, not very bright, are you? Or something like that.

01:23:42

Killer Kyle

Not too bright though. Not too bright though.

01:23:44

Alex

Yeah, that' yeah not too bright, though. And it's such a great, like, funny moment and such a great undercutting of the character.

01:23:46

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:23:51

Alex

And I don't want to get too into the sequels, but I think that's one of the ways that the sequels lose their way is they make Neo too much of a Messiah figure without remembering that humanity, that humor.

01:24:03

Alex

like I always loved the moment where he flicks off Agent Smith. It's just so great.

01:24:09

Dustin Zick

no

01:24:10

Killer Kyle

I'll give you the finger. It's just, yeah, it's amazing. Oh man.

01:24:13

Dustin Zick

Well, and that that that scene in the beginning when he does that and then Smith takes away his mouth and then they put the the bug in him. And then when he gets when he gets unplugged and he is in the pot, like I forgot like how much body horror there is in those two scenes, like legit.

01:24:30

Alex

Oh, it's horrifying. And it's very HR Giger, like I was thinking of Alien during that sequence, like the way the geometry is constructed of the pods and like, yeah, it's such a great little like, exactly like you said, Dustin body horror moment in the middle of this.

01:24:36

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:24:46

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:24:48

Killer Kyle

And it's another it's another that the scene in the car where they're they're trying to get the bug out of them. I mean, it's it's it's it's pretty heavy-handed the more you watch it.

01:24:52

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:24:56

Killer Kyle

But I can remember the second time that I saw that in the theater and she and you know she's like, stop the car. We got to explain to you what's going on. And she calls him Coppertop. And that's another one of those moments where she just says, listen to me, copper top.

01:25:11

Killer Kyle

And it's like, on the first viewing, there's a line that just just goes right over your head or whatever you don't think about going back to. And you see it the second to the 900 millionth time I've seen it. And it's like, just she's just calling him a battery.

01:25:23

Killer Kyle

And like it was such an like like it was such an iconic ad during that time, the nineteen you know late 90s of the Duracells.

01:25:23

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:25:31

Killer Kyle

Ah, man, it's just, it's so good.

01:25:32

Alex

Yeah. so

01:25:33

Dustin Zick

Yeah, it's it's almost a pity that like, you know, did either of you watch that with again, without getting into it too much like the animatrix?

01:25:41

Killer Kyle

I didn't even want, no I, oh no I did not.

01:25:45

Killer Kyle

I heard it was good.

01:25:46

Dustin Zick

There's there's some good stuff in there for sure. But like, and there's, and you know, a lot of it is like, quote unquote, flashback stories and stuff. Like characters you talked about, like Mouse and like Apoc and and all those different characters in this movie that die in this movie. I would have loved to have seen and maybe there's a comic out there that I'm not aware of, but like have learned more about those characters and like how they got unplugged from The Matrix and what their stories were because like that's something I totally kind of forgot about this movie being clouded by thinking of the sequels that I'm more familiar with recently at least is like oh yeah there are these like cool badass characters that we only meet for a few minutes in this movie and then ultimately end up dying that I feel like have stories that are worth being told that haven't been told yet.

The Legacy of The Matrix

01:26:39

Alex

I freaking love Mouse even though he only gets like three minutes of screen time. He's such a great little character and I love the little story he tells about

01:26:48

Killer Kyle

Tasty week.

01:26:50

Alex

It's not cream. Yeah. Tasty. We thank you. and it adds to one of the tricks this movie plays, which is making you think that you, the viewer could be living in the matrix by tying it into our world and by referencing a product that we all know about, and it doesn't do this a lot. Like it doesn't, you know, reference brands or companies or things that would, you know, date it too much, but by referencing something,

01:27:17

Alex

That's a known quantity like tasty wheat. And then he talks about like chicken tasting like everything. And you're like, well, chicken does kind of taste like everything. And it you know it makes you, as a viewer, be like have that moment of like reflexive doubt to be like, shit, like are we are we living in the matrix? Which you know is that stoner moment that everyone like has when they think about this movie. But I think it's like built into the DNA of the of the script.

01:27:45

Alex

And I guess another thing that jumped out at me in comparison to our other two watches is how perfectly structured this movie is in terms of like three acts and how the big reveal, the mystery of what is the matrix gets solved at the 30 minute mark where Morpheus has that great expository scene in the red chair with the lightning flashing and the red pill, blue pill.

01:28:12

Alex

And with those other movies that we saw, those reveals didn't happen until they were essentially over. And I think that's so key to this movie's permanence and to it like being this kind of archetype. It's a modern myth that we now all have and can reference because Like it uses the mystery as a framework for like what is ultimately a hero's journey story, where I think a lesser movie would have been all about the mystery and all about the world building, where here it's like, we're going to use that as scaffolding to tell this very like, you know, human story about redemption and faith. And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of a fairy tale.

01:28:57

Alex

with that kiss at the end. like It's got all of these elements that make it. So you know again, it's like it's like a monomyth that we all can relate to now. And I think the the narrative structure is a big part of that.

01:29:12

Killer Kyle

it i Yeah, I mean, it is, for ah for a movie that's two hours and 16 minutes, I was like, again, and i've I've seen this so many times, I was still like shocked when I was like, oh yeah, this is about to end. There's like 10 more minutes to this movie. Because it just moves so beautifully. here's Here's a question I want to pose to you both. Because I think it is, you as we've as we've even too struggled in this one, it is difficult to remove ourselves from the whole world of The Matrix.

01:29:41

Killer Kyle

If the sequels never get made, none of it, if all we ever got was The Matrix, my contention, and I want to know if you agree, this movie is universally regarded as like a top five movie of all time.

01:29:54

Killer Kyle

If we never get any of that corruption, because even with where we went in the sequels and how big the world got, the ending to this being kind of like open ended in front and he flies and like all those things have happened and he's just done this.

01:30:06

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:30:07

Killer Kyle

It is Very rarely do you get a movie where the ending is so satisfying, and yet you can also build everything that they there's so much more potential.

01:30:14

Dustin Zick

There's so much more potential. Yeah.

01:30:18

Killer Kyle

And it's such a hard space to to live in. But just with, especially with how it has aged, if we now... Because i have I'll be honest, like I love this movie in ah in a core way.

01:30:30

Killer Kyle

I have not even engaged with the most recent one that came out like direct to Streamy or whatever. I was like, I don't even care. I'm just kind of curious. If you think we've we never got the sequels, is this movie, like you know for lack of a better term, because I don't necessarily even agree with this, like Godfather status, right where everyone is like, oh.

01:30:47

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah or ah you know even more better regarded than it currently is kind of a thing like I definitely think that for sure like I think I think that the sequels have pulled weight on on Not that people have

01:30:53

Killer Kyle

Right. Yeah.

01:31:04

Dustin Zick

like look at this movie worse because of the sequels, but I think that it is impossible to not judge this movie without at least being aware and cognizant of the sequels. And that, I think,

01:31:20

Dustin Zick

kind of like it' it's it's you can't like say this well this was its own movie and the sequels are part of a different thing they're not they're all like it's continuing that story and so that kind of like pull it definitely pulls like the weighted average down a little bit but like yeah i think i mean case in point like that's my story with it right like it's been a long time since i re-watched this and in my mind not that i thought like oh this movie was dumb or bad but i was like oh probably didn't age that well

01:31:50

Dustin Zick

and a different in in in a different way than I feel like like I was thinking like, the oh, the effects and the vibes of this movie didn't age well. And I think they aged great.

01:32:00

Alex

Listen.

01:32:00

Dustin Zick

Whereas like the effects for Revolutions and Reloaded minus like the Burley Brawl thing and Reloaded, like largely I think have aged well too, but like the story and whatnot is not as tight.

01:32:14

Dustin Zick

It's too wide and too wide ranging. So yeah, I think that I think that this movie would hold a different place in people's minds where the sequel is not a thing.

01:32:27

Dustin Zick

It definitely would have been like on a list of like movies that deserve a sequel or you know that we want to know the story more kind of it thing.

01:32:33

Killer Kyle

Oh, yes.

01:32:33

Alex

Right, there would be its own kind of discourse around it, but...

01:32:36

Dustin Zick

Yeah yeah but like it definitely and it's still I mean to that point again it's like I said it I don't think people look at this this poorly but I think that It's easy to like forget how good this is when you look at the material that came after and how challenging some of that is and how vastly different. and i mean there's There's probably a term for it where like the the scope of the world that they set for themselves kind of was shooting themselves in the foot by it.

01:33:09

Dustin Zick

Right. Like part of what makes this movie so great is that it is somewhat self-contained kind of a thing and that like it's not the the it's not him taking on the entire world by the end of it.

01:33:16

Alex

Right.

01:33:21

Dustin Zick

To your point, Kyle, like there's.

01:33:24

Killer Kyle

Yeah, it kind of honestly and honestly reminds me of John Wick in that way as well, another Keanu piece.

01:33:24

Dustin Zick

but he

01:33:28

Alex

Sure.

01:33:29

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah.

01:33:30

Killer Kyle

but the first the The first one is so like it's relatively contained, but you have all these kind of you know chess pieces on the board.

01:33:36

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:33:37

Killer Kyle

And then by the fourth one, it's like, okay.

01:33:39

Dustin Zick

What the fuck?

01:33:40

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:33:41

Alex

Yeah.

01:33:41

Dustin Zick

No, I agree. I mean, that's how I feel about those movies. Like I'm interested.

01:33:44

Alex

Right.

01:33:45

Dustin Zick

They're fun to watch, but like the story is becoming more and more convoluted to a detrimental effect where like I'm not coming here for the story. I'm not. coming to The Matrix first and foremost for the story.

01:34:01

Dustin Zick

But once I'm here with this first one, the story is very tight. But what makes it tight is the fact that they're not, they talk about Zion, but they don't fucking spend half the movie in Zion.

01:34:12

Dustin Zick

They talk about the machines, but we don't spend most of the movie with the machines.

01:34:12

Alex

Right.

01:34:16

Dustin Zick

We're spending it in The Matrix with Agent Smith. Like that's like our primary villain. And yeah, he exists in the sequels in various forms, but he gets washed out by the other machinations of the entire world going on around them.

01:34:33

Killer Kyle

Yeah. Okay. The question then for you, Alex, if there's no sequels, is it, is this easily like in one of the times is this being regarded as a top five movie of all time?

01:34:46

Alex

i I think it could be. I mean, it's hard it is hard to like remove that that context and just knowing everything that came after it. But I do think it has that that critical reception and did at the time, I think it has all the qualities that we attribute to other other movies like like A Godfather in terms of economy of storytelling and you know the perfectly calibrated nature of the script. We haven't really talked about like the

01:35:21

Alex

kind of the technical achievement that this movie is. I mean, we have with the visuals, but I was looking up what but Oscars this movie won because on the Amazon screen it said, you know, something about the Matrix winning, you know, four-time Oscar winner. I just had it, so I'm going to pull it up.

01:35:40

Killer Kyle

Yeah, and while while you're pulling it up, I want to say like while we're talking about the juxtaposition of the sequels to this one and its place in history, I think what you said about the Neo character in the first one compared to the Neo character for the rest of the series is like extremely astute because it's you know You have a little bit of that and ignorance, frankly, to go on with Keanu, which he plays into well, and the character plays into well, and the whole world interacts with him well.

01:36:10

Killer Kyle

And then, yeah, in two and three, he's the all-knowing in a lot of ways, right? like he's He's awoken. He is the Dalai Lama of this world. he has you know And so there is... the yeah like The conversation that the architect and Neo have in the second one is not even remotely possible in the first one, nor would it even be attempted, right?

01:36:30

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:36:31

Killer Kyle

But like the fact that that kind of conversation can happen then does speak to the movements that that character makes and something and is an essential difference.

01:36:32

Alex

Right.

01:36:40

Killer Kyle

yeah I don't know how to get around it you know with with him being the one and him becoming you know that that that all being a part of it, but like yeah.

01:36:44

Dustin Zick

Yeah, well, I mean, part of part of what makes this movie so compelling, right, is like as an audience member, you're on the journey with him to like from start to finish, like to his real self-realization as the one, like you're doing that with him. And then I feel like. And it not to say that this can't work in a movie, but I don't think it works as well as it could in the sequels, at least Reloaded and Revolutions. You go into this journey as a total outsider and it's very clear that all the characters know more than you know and there's some things that they're learning but them the shit that they're learning like that scene with him talking to the fucking architect doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever so it becomes so goddamn convoluted that like you you don't have a

01:37:35

Dustin Zick

an entry point to following that story and being like on that journey with the character right the the moment they give you that opportunity to be on the journey with that character you're like i don't fucking understand what's going on here like what is this this with white hair talking about like this doesn't make any sense and so it completely takes you out of it whereas here like in the first one i don't feel like there's any beat of the story that like doesn't make sense which is

01:37:50

Alex

right Right.

01:38:04

Dustin Zick

maybe It's a pretty low bar to come over, and I feel like that's something that the sequels struggle with.

01:38:10

Alex

Sure, because I think the sequels, like you were saying about the John Wick movies, Kyle, the sequels become about expanding the world and the mythology of the Matrix universe and resolving that kind of meta-conflict between the the humans and the machines that it loses its potency as a story about all these other things where you're not getting the hero's journey, you're not getting the sci-fi take on Unplay Those Republic, you know, you're not getting, uh, these really interesting readings of, uh, Zen Buddhism and Judeo-Christian mythology with the one, you know, it becomes about the Matrix-like franchise and less about the story that they told in this first movie.

01:38:59

Alex

Same thing with John Wick, it became about the John Wick franchise rather than this one really powerful narrative about a guy seeking vengeance. And yeah, to just go back to the technical achievements that The Matrix racked up. Best visual effects, best film editing, best sound mixing, best sound editing. And I think you know those kind of would help cement it as as more of a film canon classic, to your question, Kyle. That combination of technical artistry, narrative mastery, and

01:39:35

Alex

in comparison to the other two movies that we talked about this week where the elements didn't gel where you had cool what world building but like bad characterization or underdeveloped scripting and and storytelling. Here all of the elements are just perfectly complementary where the action scenes exist to further character, further themes. They're all working in in concert with each other, which to me is a big hallmark of movies that we do kind of revere as those films that stand the test of time. And yeah, you know, it's been 25 years. It's been a quarter of a century since this movie came out and

01:40:22

Alex

You know, I feel like we are still going to be talking about it 25 years from now, even with the kind of more complicated legacy that it has with those three sequels.

01:40:34

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Well, on that note, I think we've progressively spent five minutes more on each movie as we've moved through them, which I feel like makes sense. That does it for episode eight. Hopefully, I didn't shoot myself in the foot in the order these come out. This should be episode eight of Triple Take Cinema. As always, you've got Dustin, Kyle, and Alex here, and we'll catch you guys next time. Have a great day, evening, morning, afternoon, whenever you're listening.