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John Carpenter’s Apocalypse Trilogy
45 Plays2 months ago
In our second episode, Dustin features legendary director John Carpenter's unofficial "Apocalypse Trilogy."
- The Thing (1982) — 9:12
- Prince of Darkness (1987) — 36:27
- In the Mouth of Madness (1994) — 1:04:47
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Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.
We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.
There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.
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Transcript
Introduction to Triple Take Cinema and John Carpenter's Apocalypse Trilogy
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to our second episode of Triple Take Cinema. ah I'm Dustin with me, as always, series, the three of us tackle three movies with some sort of common denominator of the theme.
Dustin's Admiration for John Carpenter and 'The Thing'
00:00:22
Speaker
This week, I picked the three movies, and I picked John Carpenter's Apocalypse. trilogy, quote unquote, and air quotes. The movies are The Thing, Prince of Darkness, and In the Mouth of Madness. I've seen all three of these movies before. I'm a big fan. This thing is easily in my top four movies of all time. It's not my favorite movie of all time.
00:00:48
Speaker
So I've definitely seen that one an outsized amount compared to the other two, ah but was very familiar with all three of these. I'm a big carpenter fan on top of that. um How about each of you? What familiarity did you have with any of these movies?
00:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, so um I had only seen the thing prior to this. And it's been about a decade since I'd seen the thing. Really only had fragmented memories of ah the ending, of the animation scenes. But it was really nice to be able to revisit and kind of immerse myself in the whole thing. I had not seen either Prince of Darkness or In the Mouth of Madness.
00:01:34
Speaker
uh in the math and madness had been on my to-do list for a while as
Co-hosts' Relationship with Horror Genre and Personal Experiences
00:01:38
Speaker
someone who is a big uh hp lovecraft fan um as someone who likes sam meal and generally digs carpenter uh so this was a treat to get to visit all three of these um two of which were first time watches for me kyle what about you ah Yeah, I same I've seen the thing I've seen it a long time ago um Can't remember when I saw it last but probably or eight eight to ten years ago, I'd say I had not seen in the mouth of madness. I had not seen Prince of Darkness and full disclosure I would never have seen these movies at all ah before before you guys suggested them. These are generally speaking I am
00:02:25
Speaker
i am historically anti-horror. and look cantai Yeah, I'm anti-supervised strong, but like, you know, I enjoy hyperbole. So let's go with it. I'm anti-horror, like the anti-Christ or the anti-God or, you know, what have you. on And, uh, yeah, I mean, they, horror for me is a lot like what a lot of people say about country music, right? Like I don't like country music, but I like,
00:02:54
Speaker
insert Johnny Cash, insert Merle Haggard, insert, you know what I mean? like I don't like, I don't like country music, but you know, I do really like those 10 Garth Brooks songs, like whatever. they There's this thing where, um where people, I mean, people use it as a, ah People use it as a way to assert their taste or whatever. And that's not really what I'm doing. I just, early on in my film stuff, I struggled with horror and I struggled with being very, very afraid. And ah The Sixth Sense actually sent me straight into therapy for yeah the the rest of my life. I'm still in therapy, because but not because of that.
00:03:38
Speaker
Maybe a bit problematic. It's still just like, I just, I can't get it. They can't get away from it. That's the only thing that came from here. Now it's that Haley Joe just haunting me all the time. Uh, it's a different kind of fear. No. And I, and I, you know, I, I, I, that didn't, that that's, I struggled with that for a while. And then I, actually that, that therapist did say to me at one point, I was.
00:04:07
Speaker
I just relapsed and I'd watched The Exorcist at a high school party and um and he basically said to me, he's like, well, you can avoid these movies.
00:04:27
Speaker
like watch a lot of desensitize yourself to it and fashion I went the other way uh with it and uh and I watched all these movies and all that and I and now I don't like none of that is ah I'm not concerned and that was I worked my way through all the horror stuff there are some horror movies that I really really really like um But this type of horror, a little bit more campy, everything, I guess I'll use that term and not necessarily, and that's not a pejorative, but.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, I struggle with these types of movies and with this time period of horror where the graphics are what they are. And at times, you know, it's like that cutting edge stuff, right? When these things are coming out, a lot of it, and then it doesn't necessarily shoot well, and I don't appreciate the lack of aging. But, you know, all that is to say, yeah, I had not seen, I had not seen Prince of Darkness. I had not seen an amounts of madness.
00:05:27
Speaker
um I have seemed to say, I think the thing is great for many reasons we can get into, but yeah, that was that was where I'm at. But yeah, I'm a horror hater. I'm curious, i would just not to like go like not to belabor that too long, but I'm just ki i'm always interested um when people like when people say they don't like horror, trying to like understand like where that comes from, it and you kind of already answered that with,
00:05:55
Speaker
fear being it because i think there's a lot especially people that have gotten more exposed to horror in the last 20 years as opposed to in the 70s 80s 90s which is you know really where these movies fall into the the puzzle uh post 2000 you get into like the uh torture porn and that kind of stuff that categorizes for horror and i i I enjoy some of that too, but I understand why people dislike that in general. But it's like, I guess maybe I lost track of where I wanted to go with that. um i As continued to
00:06:39
Speaker
not be a huge horror fan even though you've moved you know worked past your fear component of it do you feel like your aversion to it is predicated just on the history that you've had with it or do you feel like it's more kind of hack like bad pun but like hacky like not i don't want to um presume that you're being uh that your nose is tilted high, but do you feel like it's a little bit beneath you in a way or like that it's not, you know, as good as other films in that regard? Or is it really just because you have a shitty history with it and like, it's just not, never became something you enjoyed? Yeah, no, I mean, it's definitely a fair question. I don't think it's,
00:07:30
Speaker
I don't think it's because of my history with it. Um, I actually think that very similar to, I, I'm, I tend to simply not be an adrenaline junkie. Um, and I don't want to, I don't want to, uh, pigeonhole horror into a disadrenaline junkie ism, but I don't seek out roller coasters. I don't seek out skydiving those things that, that type of rush.
00:07:58
Speaker
isn't isn't something that that i've that I've ever really been attracted to and horror movies to me are similar in that way ah to some of those some of those types of events or some of those types of activities that one can engage in where
00:08:14
Speaker
I like to come out of a movie feeling emotionally affected in a way that makes me rethink something about myself or rethink something about the world or rethink something about my relationships. or you know all that that yeah type of that you know Those movies that really stick with me and sit with me for days after, those are that that's kind of what I'm more attracted to.
00:08:38
Speaker
and what I'm really looking for ah when it comes to my movie watching. And I just haven't found horror, other than horror movies that are generally speaking around dystopian stuff. yeah where at Where I can kind of also say something about the world, you know, for example, recent horror movies that I really enjoyed. um quiet place and quiet place too. I thought those were very good. That type of dystopian fallout stuff is great. I tend to generally steer away from zombies and vampires because I find it to be...
In-depth Discussion on 'The Thing'
00:09:12
Speaker
I don't like zombies, vampires, and werewolves. And in fact, werewolves to me are like, fuck off. I just don't want to talk about werewolves. I can live with vampires. I think it can be done well. Zombies, I think, is the hardest thing to do well. I find it very... But I did love 28 Days Later, which some would say is not a zombie movie, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I think it's a zombie movie. But it's a little sub thing. So when horror is merged with like the fall of culture, the fall of civilization, I find it very interesting. When horror is just
00:09:46
Speaker
really scary stuff. And I guess like, yeah here's a here's a movie that I maybe should have liked is is how a lot of people in my life would say Hereditary Hereditary is a movie that I watched and you get to the end and I get to the end of it. I'm kind of like, I don't fucking care about this at all. And, and that's just that to me is, is is is how it's difficult for for horror to to leap and get back for me personally. like yeah long sure Yeah, it can be a super enjoyable experience. And that's exactly people want to be jumpscared people. And, you know, people want that, like, and in what the emotional, ah you know, a sec that I'm looking for on myself, if people are looking for that in the actual movie, they're looking to be like on and they're looking at it. And that, yeah, wasn' and if that's what you want, go for it. But yeah, I also feel so and similar to like,
00:10:38
Speaker
Similar to rom-coms, right? Like you can, there's, there's like an elevated level of rom-com that's just amazing. And then you get into all this other whatever that is terrible. And I think that that's also something that plagues horror and it plagues everything else. but it Yeah, for sure. it plague It seems to plague horror in a way where people think about it more.
00:10:56
Speaker
Um, like, oh, there's all this bad war movies or whatever, but you know, there's been some really good ones that I've really enjoyed. Um, yeah and I do tend to, and I will say, I liked the thing of all these movies, the best again, because it, it is a little bit more psychological thriller. Oh, for sure. For sure. Which I'm super into. And it is, um, it has a smart or interesting in that in an interesting intellectual like.
00:11:23
Speaker
when you don't know who you're looking at or interacting with is real, similar to like AI movies and robot movies and just, I don't know what I'm looking at as real or who this is, or if this is a copy or whatever. That's, that's a very film wise, just fun place to exist in. um Right. yeah Yeah. There's a level of like psychological layering that happens there. That's really intriguing. Yeah. I definitely got that with the thing as well. Yeah. I just, that's, that's awesome. And I mean, i like, I,
00:11:52
Speaker
I can totally understand and empathize with that perspective just for context. And this may, maybe this becomes a little mini soundbite episode. We thought there's something this discussion. Um, and Alex, you can feel free to jump in and give us your own horror backstory about this after if you want, but, um, like my background with horror, like I hate being scared. I hate it. Like I hate jump scares. Like.
00:12:20
Speaker
I, I, uh, my dad and I would watch scary movies together. We'd rent them on VHS and like, he would, he would mute it. And then we would fast forward a little muted and fast forward to see when the jump scare happened. And then we would play and rewind and we knew the jump scare was going to happen. But it was so freak us out. Um,
00:12:46
Speaker
i I agree about like the dystopian worlds and things like that. That's always been my favorite sub-genre of horror, which you know I think there's a they're there're plenty of dystopian movies that wouldn't categorize as horror, but like that's part of why I love like Romero's original ah Dead trilogy, Night, Day, and Dawn. You get into his movies post-day.
00:13:12
Speaker
um i think it's a little worse but um i think that those like for me it's kind of like a challenge internally of like what can i see that like kind of gets under my skin a little bit what can i see that actually like grosses me out today Um, but there was a period in my life where when I was still in high school, I thought maybe I would want to be a mortician. Um, and so I, I don't want to say that I have like an impenetrable stomach when it comes to gore because like there is some gross shit, especially like real gores like.
00:13:47
Speaker
part of why I never became a mortician. ah But I love like seeing gore on the screen and like watching behind the scenes of like how they made it and stuff like that. I grew up watching the Evil Dead movies and like the documentaries on how those movies were made. so For me, like horror is a so challenge in many ways, ah but I definitely feel like I enjoy ah horror that has Deliberacy behind it beyond just like pure jump scares. Like I like it when there's an interesting story or an interesting like undertone and I think these three movies
00:14:26
Speaker
One of them, maybe not as much as the other two have that kind of underscore in a really cool way. Uh, but before I you the jump into that Alex, do you want to share your whole backstory a little bit of like where your level of appreciation or non-appreciation comes from?
00:14:44
Speaker
Absolutely. I would love to get into my horror origin story. And what's been cool about hearing you two share your perspective is I feel like I'm kind of in that Venn diagram overlap between both of those, where I was a kid with a very overactive imagination. So when I was younger, I avoided horror purely out of that aversive theory action. It was specifically timber in Sleepy Hollow that I found way too young.
00:15:15
Speaker
And there's a scene in that movie where Johnny Depp's character goes into the cave to meet like this witch character and she jumps at the camera, her eyeballs pop out of her skull. Seeing it as an adult, it is like incredibly campy and silly. But as a kid, I was like fucking screaming out of the room like not doing this again and it was just something i didn't seek out you know throughout my childhood and really even in high school and it wasn't until my 20s when i kind of had a re-appreciation for horror and i think it had to do with kind of a lot of these prestige horror films that started coming out
00:15:57
Speaker
I'd say maybe around a decade ago where I was visiting one of my friends in Austin, Texas and we had tickets to see a screening of The Babadook. And I loved that movie and I loved it for its fanatic richness and the way that it used horror to comment on things like mental illness and parent-child relationships.
00:16:20
Speaker
And at the same time, I finally got that adrenaline ah rush of kind of testing myself and being like, oh, I can do horror. This feels satisfying on a visceral, emotional level, also on an intellectual level, because I can then, you know, unpack.
00:16:39
Speaker
how the scares and the themes intersect. ah I've always been a fan of The Shining. The Shining is probably the one horror movie that I watch ah even in my avoidance phase of horror. um But after watching The Babadook, I saw some other movies kind of in a similar vein where there was, you know, thematic richness that was being mined there. ah It Follows was a big one. I really loved seeing that.
00:17:08
Speaker
um Sequel coming out soon too with It Follows. I'm excited for that. And I really loved Luca Guadamino's Suspiria remake. I saw that in theaters and thought that was fucking fantastic. um And now where I'm at with horror is that it's not often something I will actively seek out.
00:17:30
Speaker
But if I'm invited to see a movie with someone, if, say, a friend who I'm doing a podcast with recommends three fanatical-related horror movies, I am fucking all in. And I loved watching these, but I think I just need that little extra push to get to that point ah where I wouldn't quite pick these on my own volition.
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah, ah like one thing, I was lucky enough, Alex, to see to see the Babadook at the Stanley Hotel ah Horror Festival in one of their theaters there. Oh, yes. I'm so good. I'm able to get to the Stanley because, yeah, with with all that the horror lore that's there, um which is incredible. ah Yeah, and then, um yeah, for me, horror is very much like, and unless we are going to a seafood restaurant,
00:18:21
Speaker
I am probably not ordering fish at a restaurant yeah and everyone will be like, Oh, so you don't like fish. I'm like, absolutely not. I love fish. It's great. But if you go to a place where I can get beef, pork, chicken and fish, I just tend to never order it. Yep. That's kind of how it is. Yeah. But if we go to the, all you can eat seafood buffet, uh, I will, I will be get some crab legs. I'll enjoy myself. You know, I guess yeah so.
00:18:43
Speaker
yeah well And I feel like horror in general is something and in many ways, more so and in my opinion. um And I feel like most people would agree with this to some extent, maybe not like the most of all the genres of movies, but certainly up in the upper echelon of genres that is better when you are watching it with others. And that can be with, you know, one or two friends in the same room or certainly seeing a movie in the theater, like a scary movie in the theater. absolutely It was a really fun, it can be a really fun experience. Um, in my opinion, even more fun, like if you know the movie, but not everybody in the crowd knows the movies. So like when those moments happen, like you can maybe feel more of like what's going on in the crowd since you already kind of know it's going to come up on screen. But this is a good opportunity to pivot into talking about our three movies. And I've thought of a million different ways to intercede into that, but, um,
00:19:43
Speaker
All the things that I wanted to go into, at like as a spin-off point, go into Prince of Darkness. But I want to do these in the order that we watched them, which is also the order that they came
Transition to Discussing the Apocalypse Trilogy
00:19:52
Speaker
out. ah So that is the thing which I believe was 1981. I should have this up on the screen, but I don't. ah Prince of Darkness would be too. Prince of Darkness, I think, was 87?
00:20:06
Speaker
I want to say, I believe I noted that. And then, uh, in the mouth of madness is 92, right? Uh, three and four. Wow. Okay. That's weird because that movie feels.
00:20:19
Speaker
almost 80s, if not very early, early 90s, not 94 90s. But let's start with the thing. Best movie of all time or greatest movie of all time? Which one? but well how did yeah Stephen Colbert used to do the thing. A great movie or greatest movie? Because if you used to ask people, Barack Obama, great president or greatest president?
00:20:45
Speaker
so what it like yeah I guess um i kiss like can like I can't remember the first time I saw the thing, but I can remember the last time I saw it, which was four days ago, ah because I could probably watch this movie every every week of my life and like find something different to enjoy about it or appreciate about it or like have more clarity on.
'The Thing': Analysis of Story, Characters, and Key Scenes
00:21:10
Speaker
ah But I think it's just a real great story that people can find to be highly accessible whether or not you like horror at all. Like I've shown this movie to people who hate horror or like are or whole horror-adverse um and they come out of it saying, that's a good movie. I would recommend that movie to others because it really, it's just like, tells such a great captivating story
00:21:39
Speaker
on top of the horror elements. I mean, the horror elements are a key component to it, but like every jump scare feels like it was earned and deserved and exceptionally well executed. Um, and every like effect is just amazing. I mean, that's one thing that the thing is well known for is the incredible practical facts. Um, so all around, I could just feign this over this movie.
00:22:09
Speaker
ab naium I'll let you guys talk a little bit. So I think one thing that really jumped out to me, and I agree with everything you just said, Dustin, um is this movie has a perfect script. There is not an ounce of fat on the script. The line provides some insight into a character's motivation, into the lore of the thing itself, um you know some kind of shading.
00:22:36
Speaker
and Let's, as we say in journalism, follow the chronology and let's start with that opening scene that um I just love how When you know what's happening, it totally recontextualizes those events. up there We're seeing this helicopter chasing a dog, shooting at the dog. And the first time you see the thing, where are your sympathies as an audience member? They're obviously not with the people in the fucking helicopter who are shooting at like an adorable Husky who is running away from them. You know, your allegiance is very much with the Americans who are like,
00:23:14
Speaker
what the hell are you doing like you guys are blowing yourselves up you're attacking the ah chair we're gonna put you down but on this rewatch i remembered seeing this movie before and i knew exactly why they were shooting that dog and i was so pissed at our protagonists at the Americans or ah in my mind on this free watch, killing that last Norwegian ah in cold blood, which he was just trying to eliminate the thing. And that's such a ah delicate balance between, you know, playing audience sympathies and where do your allegiances lie? And I love that it works equally well if you don't know what's happening and if you do know what's happening.
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah. And I, I don't know exactly what the dialogue is, but I know that, uh, whatever the the guy is saying, the Norwegian guy or Swedish guy, whatever nationality is, whatever saying in the foreign language, if you translate it to English, he's saying something like kill it. It's an alien or something. Literally that like suddenly makes so much more sense or like that it's not human or something like that. I also like.
00:24:30
Speaker
I won't say it bothers me, but I also, I find it like comical every time I watch it of just how inept they do this with the grenade when he pulls the pen and like arcs his hand before his head but those hat it just throws the gun at him. Kind of like, I don't know if this is the right use of like Deus Ex Machina of just like okay so you nearly dela the helicopter how do we blow the helicopter to we that makes senses oh maybe you miss as the grenade
00:25:02
Speaker
but standing in front of the helicopter so he throws it behind the onact and through something There's a slapstick element, in it but then you think about what those men have been through to get to this point.
00:25:14
Speaker
And you're like, of course they're going to make a mistake. they're egg oh yeah They've been fighting this thing for who knows how many hours. So it it totally makes sense in universe, but yes, there's definitely like a comedic farcical nature. Well, and it also makes sense that like, sure, he can handle himself with a rifle because he probably hunts, but like,
00:25:35
Speaker
You don't really have a ton of experience throwing grenades, so he's probably not like as you know in that panic of a moment and everything. well look i go that that That whole opening scene like kind of sets the tone. And and when you've when you know the story, it's infuriating to know if they just would have like not let the dog in, or if the dude would have been a better shot and killed the dog.
00:25:58
Speaker
would have loved a better shot. Terrible, terrible, terrible shot. that's that but yeah no I really enjoy i mean i enjoy the any any opening scene to a movie its that that just kind of puts you... like What is happening? Because I...
00:26:17
Speaker
I wasn't really thinking like about my previous viewing. I mean, I obviously knew where it was going, but I i wasn't actually locked into it very quickly. I got there, but you know the first 15, 20 seconds, I'm like, what is happening right now? um And then it gets into ah into it very quickly.
00:26:34
Speaker
um Yeah, i the you're you're dead on about the script. yeah like The pacing is is there's it's very well paced as well. like it doesn't ever You feel like you're it's dragging at any point, which is really nice. like You always feel that tension.
00:26:51
Speaker
and i think more than more than other but well more than the two other movies in this trilogy, I'll say that, simply because of the setting and where it is and the remote nature and and and where they're at and no civilization at all, the score to me was much more impactful here because there is a weird tension chi and home uneasiness that is surrounding when you're in that kind of desolation, when you're in that kind of nothingness and silence has this, it can take over all of the all of the of the auditory field. ah And and what what was accomplished score-wise to go along with the pacing, to go along with what you're seeing, that to me was, you know and I think that's also something that
00:27:41
Speaker
you know, horror can overdo and it was just pitch perfect for the whole way through. And then you add on top of that Kurt Russell crushing, just crushing that to me. Yeah, that that i yeah i was I was in very quickly but because it really grabs you immediately. um And then it doesn't stop. I love that just moment of things haven't hit the fan yet.
00:28:06
Speaker
And it's all just chilling and walking through and you have that sense of ominousness and it's it's yeah it so it's wonderful in that way. well im even like you know I i will always thought it was interesting because like there's parts of this movie, there's not a lot, but there's a couple of parts where Um, ah probably like in the third act when they're, when shit really has hit the fan. And, uh, I don't remember exactly where it is, but like Kurt Russell's like, Oh, we're going to go back up to my shack because I turned the light off when I left and the lights on up in the shack.
00:28:39
Speaker
yeah And it gets very disorienting after that cut because suddenly time fast forwards like two hours, um, or an hour. And we're not told that there's really no visual indication that that happens. Uh, but somebody assembles back the, um, I forget the character's name, but I think he's the cook that was with him, stumbles back and he's alone. And he got separated from Kurt Russell and Kurt Russell appears and he's clearly been outside for.
00:29:05
Speaker
Actually, I don't think very long, but since it's like subzero temperature, so it looks like he's been out there for like a day. Um, I've always found that a little bit disorienting in terms of like, wait, who went where? What happened? How did you get separated when you can like see the shack? It's like 500 feet away. Um, but I think the last two or three times I've watched this and I've probably watched it like 60 times. Um, I, I'm like.
00:29:32
Speaker
I finally started to figure out that logic of what's happening. And I'm like, okay, I get why. that Like this is deliberate. It's fucking with your head because the characters don't know what the fuck is going on. They're as confused as we are. So it's not like.
00:29:49
Speaker
information isn't being presented to us clearly. No, like the characters don't have like that clear information. People are kind of lost and disjointed. And so that's something I feel like I've, I've begun to appreciate even more is the couple moments where I'm like, wait, what is going on? What's happening? Um,
00:30:09
Speaker
That's deliberate and it just kind of adds to the chaos of the movie. The other thing that I ah recently noticed, and I think it was called out in another podcast or something, but that I never like fully processed, when Wilford Brimley's character, what's his character's name again? I should know this if I'm a real fan.
00:30:29
Speaker
um when more for player player when player when they lock player up because he figured out what was going on and destroyed everything when they locked him up he was not infected when they go to get him when they check on him because they're trying to look for someone and he says i'm all right i'm better now you gotta let me in in the background you can see a noose hanging in the shack Uh, which I would interpret to be that he was infected at that point because he was going to kill himself, got infected, and then the alien infecting him like told him to stick around or whatever. The other thing that I feel like I finally understood this time, which maybe I'll cut this out of the podcast because I don't want to admit that I didn't understand it. Um, but I think I always had in my head that the alien makes a copy of you.
00:31:26
Speaker
Like I ever thought that the alien killed you and copied you, like morphed into a version of you. right And I think the reason I thought that was the first, one of the first people that changes when ah they chase him down outside and he like looks at the camera and screams and he's got like the long fingers or whatever. I was like.
00:31:50
Speaker
I always thought that he was like changing from a thing into a human. But watching it this time, I feel pretty confident that, I think the thing that convinced me of this was seeing Blair's little computer model, super old school computer thing of the cell infecting you. But the thing merges with your body.
00:32:12
Speaker
does some weird shit and, you know, goes in and out and blah, blah, blah, and then becomes part of you and takes over you. Uh, which makes so much more sense now that I understand that than I think it ever did for me before. Yeah, it definitely, it definitely seemed to me like a parasite type of situation. no yeah Um,
00:32:33
Speaker
And, and that eventually it was done with you and moved on kind of how it did with the dog. yeah like yeah like It's very, yeah, that the dog is chilling there and then it's just, nope, we're moving on. And then it doesn't really know what to do with itself when, when that moment happens and it it breaks out and and all those things. I mean, I think the, the, the lack of understanding about the mechanics is obviously a big part of why yeah like it's so effective. yeah yeah because What is true? i like if You can spend all day twisting yourself and not trying to understand. like okay look So why did the one dude, he was fine and he had a heart attack or whatever, but he was the thing.
00:33:20
Speaker
And then his chest had a mouth, and ate the hands, and then his head fell off, and then blew out spot. it Like, one of the most part of what makes it awesome is not like it's completely unpredictable what it's going to do next and what powers it has. that I also feel like at the end when Blair's fully infected and, um,
00:33:43
Speaker
kills the one guy by like sticking his fingers into his face or whatever that part never made sense to because like what what was he doing exactly but I guess if you think of it as like his his skin is merging with him or something crazy like that. But um I sound like I'm criticizing this movie, but I'm not. I like i don't care that enough of that makes sense because the underlying... i mean ah that ah again goes to I presume this movie takes place over the course of like six hours and um the chaos that erupts in that time frame for all these guys that are
00:34:18
Speaker
in this space, not knowing what's coming to them. And all of a sudden there's only two of them left while everything else is in flames. Is, is, is he building a spaceship at some point? Yes, he is. Yeah. Also, which I guess, you know, now makes me rethink whether it takes place in six hours. Cause he got really, really far on that spaceship. Like he was, but then alien intelligence, he could, and true. all that True. Very quickly.
00:34:48
Speaker
a movie dug that hole extra quickly too. I mean that's why I like the the the the scene or the the setting of this movie so much is because you're in a place where time and and darkness and space because of the snow like everything is nothing is nothing is what it seems and you can be tricked all the time by real simple uh traverses of space outside. And I mean, sunlight is weird and all that stuff. Like, we don't know how long this is going on for at all. um Yeah, and then and I mean, at the the jump scare with the blood oh you're testing the blood Oh, that's like, I see it in the movie. Yeah, that one is so good. Is that no matter how many times I see that scene, I always forget and where the, joke yes, yes. Perfectly constructed where I don't think it even shows the name on the vial. yeah
00:35:44
Speaker
with all the other vials you see like a close-up of the character's name and then the greedy dipping the the hot um like metal into it but when it finally is the thing you don't get that like close-up so it's out of fucking nowhere yep every time every time i know it's coming but it still gets me and i like i such suspense in that moment and like It's so great too, how like the ah dude that was the thing, like, you know, was just sitting there tied up. And I thought, I love that moment when the jump scare happens and then they cut to the bench and there's two other guys on the bench. And the guy that's the thing is just like
Discussion on 'Prince of Darkness'
00:36:27
Speaker
having convulsions.
00:36:31
Speaker
You have a fact that it just so goes berserk the man. we It grew it like he jumps, it bakes out of his, his bindings and the giant mouth bites windows and the comical scene of him thrashing windows body around like a true rag doll, like completely not with any sort of weight attached to it or anything.
00:36:54
Speaker
um Yeah, and then ah like the dude with the the eyebrows guy has the great line after they confirmed that he's not infected about if you would like to not spend the rest of his time tied in the fucking chair. Yeah, yeah that's, uh, that's him. And that, that whole scene is great. And I mean, for me as well, this, this will be kind of elevated to that, you know, to what we're talking about before, like what horror gets you and why, why you, why you appreciated it at all and, and all that, all those things.
00:37:26
Speaker
the the kind of the scene at the end where you know kurt russell's just like here we're not getting out of here like that's not happening that that to me is kind of the the moment that i mean it's all great beforehand but in terms of the thing that brings it to this full circle and really thick with me and to see people go on that journey and get to the realization that they're and they're not getting out ever. That is kind of their duty almost to getting us through to the end without it becoming a whole thing for the whole world and that that yeah thats thought that that scene was was very well executed and just done well by Kurt and all those things and the resignation of that moment is solid.
00:38:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think you feel that weight of them being just stranded in the cold Arctic. I also love about that moment um with ah with McCready when he recognizes, yeah, we're not getting out of here alive, is that it recontextualizes what happens earlier with Blair when Blair goes crazy and destroys the ah the the blood, destroys the equipment.
00:38:36
Speaker
Um, because when you're watching that part of the movie, you think, Oh, he's going crazy. But in hindsight, it's kind of a heroic act that he's doing. It's like a self sacrificial. He's like, we need to sacrifice ourselves so that the entire world doesn't get subsumed by this thing. Um, and I just love how there are two such different ways of.
00:39:02
Speaker
You know, I think self-sacrifice is a big theme in this movie, especially in that, you know, very famous ending, which I'm sure we'll get to at some point. But yeah, I love how McReedy, you know, accepts that realization. And I love, you know, kind of the hysteria of Blair accepting that way earlier in the film. Yeah. but And that's another thing I feel like I've noticed in recent viewings, the in particular when Blair's taking the axe to all the radio equipment.
00:39:32
Speaker
He's very easy to like dismiss whatever he's shouting, um especially if you don't have subtitles to hunt or anything, but like he's saying stuff that kind of telegraphs that like, yeah I think he literally says, I know what's going on here. And like if you, especially with hindsight, like you know what he's talking about that like, oh yeah, like we can't call in reinforcements or like call for help or anything like that.
00:40:00
Speaker
um but It begs the question of like when did Blair turn because you know the radio equipment makes sense, but the blood vials, if Blair destroyed the blood vials, like that doesn't make sense for him to do that unless he didn't want anyone to know who was infected and who wasn't.
00:40:21
Speaker
but that so it' so Another good question to the point you had, Alex, about the ending. Do you think either of them are infected at the end? Yeah, I mean there's so many different ways that you can play that ending and um I know that Carpenter has said that if you look at the clues the movie provides you, you can tell who is or isn't the thing. And I think I'm less interested in that, in looking at things like I know a lot of people have highlighted the fact that child, ah his breath doesn't show up on camera as an indication that he's the thing, or the fact that McGrady says earlier in the movie, you know, everyone drinks their own stuff. Nobody eats ah food, someone else's food. And then he offers child's the the booze and child's to swig and McGrady kind of chuckles to himself. That could be another indication that child's is a thing.
00:41:21
Speaker
um but But to me, it's almost kind of an irrelevant question because it's about that paranoia. It's about the suspicion. And I think either one of them or both of them are definitely the thing. And I think that in the context of the other two movies that we watched,
00:41:41
Speaker
because this is the Apocalypse trilogy, and if both of them are human and they freeze to death, then the thing's but things's over. It was extinguished by McCready, but if one or both of them are it and they freeze to death, then they just stay there in the ice for a rescue team to dig them up. um So I think I lean towards Childs being the thing or Childs and McReedy both being the thing and having sort of a standoff at the very end. Kyle, what are your thoughts on and how the film ends? I think they're both infected for sure. um And I i yeah i mean i agree. if It is the apocalypse trilogy. I i don't think i think it's all gone completely ah belly up. And there's you know that that's that's just my
00:42:31
Speaker
Uh, but it does, it, you know, it does, it does with that, it is, it does feel, I dunno, it doesn't feel over. It just feels, I mean, this whole thing started with, with some stuff buried in ice from ah long ago, millions of years, whatever it is. And so even if I just, again, we don't know the mechanics, we don't know this stuff. And so whatever, whatever ending we get with this group of characters to me just feels like you could have just made a whole bunch of other movies out of this and.
00:42:59
Speaker
brought it back in any amount any time you wanted to uh yeah and i think i i go back to that and the initial initial scene where the spaceship lands on earth in some unknown time way back and and you know way way way back yeah so for for to me they're both infected and this this saga is over but we will get another one of these for sure um i'm i'm very excited for the global warming redo of the saying where the iscaps melt and with Well, uh, to that point, and after this, we can maybe move on to the next movie, so some interesting facts, but the thing, uh, so there is, there is a ah prequel that came out, I believe in 2011, also called the thing, um, which.
00:43:45
Speaker
It's not well revered. I actually have a soft spot for it. Um, the biggest grub with it, which I'm inclined to agree, is that all the effects are CG and they look stupid. Uh, especially when you look at behind the scenes footage and they had originally planned on using practical effects, like the original movie, and they decided to go with CG because it was cheaper. Um, big mistake.
00:44:08
Speaker
But I always thought it was a super cool movie because it literally tells the story that leads like of what's happening at the Norwegian base um and what leads up to the events of the original movie. um So if you go it like the end of this prequel literally is the the dog running away and they take off in the helicopter so you can watch them back to back and it like feels like longer story like I definitely feel like it's worth watching if you're a fan of this movie because I think the story they tell is interesting not necessary by any means but it's interesting and competently done minus the effects it's without we'd be remiss not to mention the fact that the thing is technically
00:44:56
Speaker
remake of the thing from another world, a a much older movie that thematically is very different, ah involves an anthropomorphic alien walking around and things like that, black and white. ah But the thing that I think is part of the pun, the thing that I think is the most interesting, is there was an actual video game in 2002 also called the thing for original Xbox that expanded on the story from the movie. It took place immediately, well, a few months after the movie, but came back to the research space. And McCready had survived. And I believe this this video game is technically canon. ah So McCready survived. It's never really explained how he survived or why.
00:45:41
Speaker
But in the spoilers for the video game, it's been 22 years, so I doubt not ruining it for anyone. He gets away and has never revealed that he's infected or anything, so presumably he was never infected if you go by the canon of the video game. I am not sure, however, about Childs if Childs was infected or not.
00:46:05
Speaker
ah Let's shift gears to Prince of Darkness. Uh, I want to open this by saying, uh, Alex, you were talking about, um, you saw that scene in, uh, Sleepy Hollow that really disturbed you and creeped you Alex. We're sorry, uh, Kyle, you talked about the sixth sense creeping you out.
00:46:26
Speaker
I vividly remember watching Prince of Darkness on TV on Sci-Fi channel or something when I was a kid in the 90s and the recurring dream that everybody has of the figure, the Satan or whatever, coming to the doorway of the church and the smoke and the light behind it scared the living shit out of me.
00:46:50
Speaker
absolutely terrified me. And I've watched this three or four times in my life. um It's not that scary. not too much it that why i've definitely hit like It's probably been seven or eight years since I rewatched this and I'll definitely have like braced for like, Oh yeah, this is going to creep me out a little bit. Maybe get me maybe a little PTSD from it or whatever.
00:47:15
Speaker
A, didn't happen as much as I thought it did. B, I mean, it's still a little unsettling, but like the grainy film and like the voice, the broadcasting every year, one nine, like it's eerie. I think what I was bothered me about it though is like what the voice is saying and like nobody, even when they acknowledge they're all having the same dream, nobody's like, ah they have some very like
00:47:46
Speaker
like scurting the edges of like, Oh, maybe this was a message from the future or whatever. But more things like was a die literally says it's a message from the future. So maybe it is. They're kind of like, well, maybe it's something that someone got sent back and what, like, has no looking traion and like yeah. yeah ba um So, and Prince of Darkness is ah is an interesting one in in this and any spectrum of films, but I almost thought it was kind of unique because of... I definitely think it's unique because of its merging of horror and like ostensibly science, even though it's a horror movie, it's not like some science movie or something, but um it's rare that I feel like a movie
00:48:30
Speaker
takes this perspective on horror by really putting kind of a thick science angle to it of like, that the existence of the horror here is science-based. And this actually goes a step further, I think, because it says, you know, it exists in in the scientific world, but then they reveal, they don't dwell on it too much, but that it's alien too?
00:48:54
Speaker
and talk about how the devil is and and Jesus are aliens, which It was an interesting path to go on with it. I'm curious what you guys thought of this movie. Yeah. I mean, ah go ahead. oh so Yeah. I, um, I had lots of thoughts about this where I did appreciate that we got a new twist on the demonic possession horror movie. Cause that's what this is. It's a subversion of the, the satanic, you know, ritual possession flick. And I liked the way that it did try and bring him.
00:49:31
Speaker
those quantum physics kind of components, but I don't think it quite stuck the landing. I admire how conceptually ambitious it was, but I think what highlights this is that example you were just talking about, Dustin, where We get this crazy kind of reveal ah about halfway through that um the entire Catholic Church, all of Christianity, um with basically a cover-up for Jesus, who was really an extraterrestrial, coming to earth to warn us about this vat of green goo that possesses the son of the anti-God. And none of the characters fucking react
00:50:19
Speaker
to that information. like There's no conversation about like what that means, what are the implications. you know There are some oblique dialogue lines where a character will be like, you know oh, you missed the history lesson. It's like, oh, the history lesson where it was revealed that Jesus Christ was an alien. like You don't say. And that disconnect made it hard for those reveals to really have the kind of um theatic weight that I think Carpenter was going for, just think because it felt like there was kind of a vacuum between the characters reacting to things and the information that we were presented with as audience members. What do you think, Kyle?
00:51:00
Speaker
Uh, yeah, I mean, I, this, you know, when this started out, I was kind of, oh, this is cool. Like I appreciate the merger of science and horror, but more specifically the, there's the sitting of the fence and the kind of happy gallivanting into science and religion and the history there. ah you know because ah yeah that Jesus is an extraterrestrial that Satan is an extraterrestrial that there's multi-dimensionality that like we don't understand what matter is an antimatter and where the space is in between electrons and all that's like all that stuff I find fascinating um
00:51:37
Speaker
And I appreciated it as a jumping off point for this weird, you know, again, demonic possession movie. of So I liked that a lot. And that, that being the support system for what was happening, kept me involved because I just felt it was interesting. um But This also got, there were more kind of wacky lines in this one now and depth than there were in the thing that kind of pulled me out of it a little bit. um And they' there was a few more, there was a few more events that that that happened that I just
00:52:22
Speaker
i don't I don't know. I i kind of liked the the weird closing in by this group of homeless people or real drifters outside that was kind of unexplained. um Alice Cooper, baby. yeah and now Yeah, great. Alice Cooper. I mean, how many times do you get to watch?
00:52:40
Speaker
I was Cooper and pale someone with the bicycle. Yeah. Not often on everything that comes around. It's very true. I did appreciate that when that was happening. I was like, Oh, that's a weapon. He's using that as a weapon. And that guy doesn't see it coming. And I, out why but he coming you but so you know, for bringing a completely random kill, it's a pretty good one. i know i i both agree Um, so I, I kind of liked, uh,
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, I just liked how it got to the action. I don't, I didn't love the action per se. um And there was a lot more Unlike the thing, there was a lot more movements of characters and interactions of characters when they were possessed and not possessed and all that stuff that just didn't, I mean, like you said, didn't stick to landing or whatever. But in those moments, the they just didn't execute in a way where I was unnerved or ah put off and in that in the way that I'm looking for maybe in in a horror movie.
00:53:36
Speaker
Uh, and I think also the, the, one of the moments, cause I did, this is one where I took a page out of your book, Dustin. And I was like, let me go fucking look at the Wikipedia and see what shit is happening here. yeah Um, and, uh, you know, and I got some interesting tidbits out of that with the dimensionality and get to getting stuck there in the mirrors and.
00:53:54
Speaker
And i I thought that was all yeah that was all interesting. i kind of I liked the use of the upside down and reverse ah liquid stuff. But the way then way that the liquid sort of shot and infected people, I don't know. i didn't It just wasn't as affecting for me. And then um agree just the way that my characters would battle with each other and and not just kind of felt a little bit contrived at times. And I think it really crystallized for me when that priest takes what has to be an extremely heavy axe and just kind of like licks it with this
00:54:30
Speaker
at the, at the mirror, of the mirror shappers, so Tim and Ben plays people. And it's like, yes, this priest is engaged in zero athletic activity for his entire life. ah Yeah. None. And, and I just sit in there, but he throws that axe. That to me is kind of, it was a moment where those are the moments where horror loses me, bro where it just has to get to this thing. And I'm like, yeah, just do it in a different way.
00:54:55
Speaker
Um, but, um, but I did like sort of the overall, I liked the message and I liked how they got to all those things. And I liked that there was this, yeah, I mean, and if we're, if we get into a world, I liked when there was differential equations, but we hadn't invented them yet as if like math is this weird language of the universe that brings everything together and like, yeah, sure, Jesus Christ and Satan are extraterrestrials. I mean, if we're talking about multidimensionality of dimensions, like built on top of one another, then sure, that's all we can. I can totally get on board with heaven and hell just being that or what, you know, in the Judeo-Christian context. All all that i i was I was on board for. It was just the actual mechanics of the possession and the interactions with the with the characters once they were there. um You know, when when when she's like,
00:55:42
Speaker
turning more grotesque to eventually wake up and try to reach out to the to the guy. Yeah. And they blasted the door and there's there's just a lot more of like, oh, I guess they didn't grab them the right way. or Yeah. Yeah. i'm co that that lost yeah but I feel like this movie for me is like a movie of extremes. Like the things that I feel like it nails, it nails really, really well. And the things that it fails, it fails excruciatingly bad. Like there was, there's a number of characters that I feel like just are totally flat and like, I just don't buy. but There are a handful of characters that I think do great. Like I think Donald Pleasance, Axe Throwing Aside was fantastic as the priest. Like he was very like,
00:56:28
Speaker
but livevable I mean, he's always great, but like, I believe in that moment. i i i i the For me, like rewatching this, knowing the dream sequence was unnerving, but not as creepy as I remember. What was Cropio that I remember is when the big black dude gets possessed and he comes back to life and he's like looking at the mirror and laughing and like, just like he was very good. And, you know, I'm just like.
00:56:58
Speaker
it could have easily been too much and really corny and it kind of was but it kind of really worked because he he kept it up the entire time um and like i'll go like the way that the green goo like just kind of like squirt gunned into people's mouths was a little dumb but like the whole aesthetic of like the effects of the green goo that thing was really kind of good they did a great job making that feel spooky and like kind of weird and isolated in that space. When she was in visuals, like we yeah pulls wide shots of the room and it's this ornate like chamber with the green swirling goo. And it almost makes you think that like somebody who were things that like came to Carpenter, like in like a dream or something. And he was like, I need to have this image. in around Let's reverse engineer a story around it.
00:57:51
Speaker
You know, all I can think of there, like, especially the the first time that Donald Pleasence, like, takes them down there, there's all those candles in that room. And I'm like,
00:58:03
Speaker
Donald white all those? Like, who would all those candles? Who's keeping them? birds if look That's erotic candles to maintain. And she's, I think, the only member of the church that's overseeing that that building there. um So that was all great. I love the um when the dude that like isn't buying what they're doing is going to leave and he goes into this bizarre empty lot that's right outside the the church and all the visuals they have of like how far away he is from the church and things like that. And then he gets possessed and he calls to everybody from the ah from the ground and they all go to the window and stuff like that. I mean, those effects are very dated. like
00:58:50
Speaker
him his head falling off and stuff but like I don't know that's just like kind of weird and and and kind of gross and and creepy in the right way for me ah it's interesting to think about like the isolation in this movie of them being walled off in the church is a very big parallel to the thing um You know, even though they're not in the middle of the Antarctic or Arctic, wherever they were, they're Antarctic. They weren't in the Arctic. Even though they're at a church in a big city, they're still walled off and and secluded, and you never really see any of the populace outside that.
00:59:26
Speaker
um ah something i found interesting because i have this on blu-ray and there is a alternate cut of the intro of the movie that aired on tv um And it's similar in many ways to the the movie, but it has a ah shift that dramatically changes the meaning of the entire movie. So you see our main man, our main mustache guy, being a creeper on campus, looking at his crush and things like that. He goes back to his apartment and he, I think in the original version of the movie, he ah there's a story on TV or something about
01:00:06
Speaker
a new galaxy being discovered or something like that. While in this alternate version, there's a story about a religious text being uncovered somewhere, which is shown in news footage to be essentially the religious text that they're translating in the church.
01:00:23
Speaker
Then he goes to bed, and then we get the wavy transition on the screen that he's about to start dreaming, and then it cuts to the rest of the movie. So for some reason, somebody decided to cut a version of this movie in the beginning that implies that the entire thing is a dream. um And my understanding is that there's nothing that happens after that.
01:00:44
Speaker
or like later in the movie that's changed or anything. It's literally just this opening sequence that like, or actually what hit what happens is he goes into a dream and then it cuts to the priest dying on the bed with the little key on his chest. Um, which is just a wild choice. And my thing to suddenly be like, you know what, this will work better if it's a dream. But maybe somebody that, you know, NBC was like, we can't do this if it's sacrilegious. So we make it a dream. We're all good.
01:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, or maybe it was something about the blending of science and religion because you have to imply this is caused by a supernova. like you know the devil The devil is real. God is real because we're saying it like came from this scientific phenomenon. That's fascinating, Dustin. I had no idea.
01:01:34
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate it. Something I appreciated is just when you think about science and religion and then, you know, how they interact or don't the, and I, and and a lot of, a lot of horror movies that employ religion as a as a motivating factor for characters it was nice to sort of see the parallel between you know i've thinking about that line of like so we have to stay the work we do here tonight is so important like that scientific fervor that i think we don't uh demonize really um um that and yeah all that yeah
01:02:17
Speaker
You know, and that's not something that's usually something that as society, named just as a society, right? It's like we don't think about as a negative. We think about it as this positive drive that gets us to a place. And it's the the reason we have knowledge and understanding and all that stuff. And then you see it in the religious context, and it's usually negative and fundamentalism and it you know leads to bad things. And I liked how those two were just parallel on this. Like you had one
01:02:44
Speaker
a Vanguard for each, you know, you had the priest and you had the the professor um and they were, they were, you know, both interested in getting to that, that next place for different. ra I liked the interplay of that. And in just, and again, in terms of like the setting of this whole thing. Yeah. That being said, if my.
01:03:04
Speaker
college math professor told me to clear my weekend schedule so I could go sleep in a cot in a creepy church. I'd be like, dude, I've got to go work at the grocery store. Are you paying me for this or what? Like I can't, I can't afford to not work this. Yeah. and Everyone was immediately gung ho to be like, well, I guess that's my weekend. I suppose except for luna dude the one dude was like, not, not there for it at all the entire time. And then I get it. i mean He you got a pretty short end of the so being stuck in the the closet with Lady gestating and into a creepy, skinless person. like She was pretty creepy when she woke up. and
01:03:42
Speaker
Uh, was looking for, and my whole thing doing that whole thing. Yeah. but blame I agree with you that some of those scares weren't always super effective, but I think that that scene with that character trapped in the, in the closet, kind of watching her transform, that was some very effective horror. Yeah. Um, I also feel like my, ah my.
01:04:08
Speaker
There was grub with this movies, I feel like the it ends very anticlimactically with what headache well in just like deciding to like jump push him through the or push her through the mirror and like that's it um but i do feel like it count like that jump scare at the end which we get a very similar jump scare in in the mouth of madness when he looks up in bed and like rolls over when she's in bed next to him is exceptionally well done it's a jump scare on that note should we jump to in the mouth of madness
Transition to 'In the Mouth of Madness'
01:04:47
Speaker
Yes. Let's do it. Who wants to go first here? I will go first. I hated this movie. ah ah but the I, this, this was everything. I didn't, so this was everything that I didn't lie that I, that I kind of talked about the things that I don't like about, about horror is that I didn't think that as opposed to the thing, which I think the setting is very interesting. I think the psychological thriller nature is very interesting. Prince of darkness, uh, the, the, the, how we get there and this weird deconstruction of religion and all that stuff.
01:05:24
Speaker
and anti-matter and the use of science and history and all that. and like all that ah you know It's interesting. It brings me in. Nothing about In the Mouth of Madness brought me in. and it was it you know I would have loved I, if frankly, it it's weird. It's like you get to, you get to the point where this author is writing is somehow been given a power or has a power to write into reality, the destruction of all that we know. And that, you know, if you read the words, you all you're broken down.
01:05:59
Speaker
That to me was wholly uninteresting. And I, I felt that like when, if what would have been more effective for me as a viewer is just, no, his writing bucks people up.
01:06:12
Speaker
There's like, that that's all there is. we don't need We don't need to go further than that. It doesn't need to be a power. It doesn't need to be this weird town that he can manifest with his words. It literally is writing that is so impactful that it makes people go insane. That to me is like more than enough. And I'm very interested in that. And it's grounded in this.
01:06:32
Speaker
I don't know. It's it's not to say reality because that seems a little ridiculous, but it's grounded in this way where him being sort of this agent of chaos and having an understanding that he could write and that things that then come to pass and that he knows everything. and all i just like And the scene where you get to the conversations with him and and everything's breaking down and people can't do stuff because they're I just, yeah it never really drew me in in that way. And it it, I guess I was always disappointed that it made that move. And it wasn't just, we don't very similar to like, we don't understand how the thing operates. This shit is crazy. Things happen. They're awesome. Uh, Prince of darkness, you know, like we don't really understand this green goo. Uh, but there's some science aspects, things happen. Interesting. This to me, this to me was just like, I would have loved more not knowing.
01:07:27
Speaker
again I would have loved more not knowing about this whole world creation stuff. um And there was some, i did I did like some fun visuals, like the scene where they're driving and then ah he's asleep and she's driving and things just kind of start to break down. She looks down, she looks out, she passes this person, she passes an older version, she hits the person, that person, all of that was like interesting. And I was kind of, I was on edge there and I thought that was, those were good affecting scenes I liked.
01:07:54
Speaker
I liked the opening, you know what I mean? The not knowing, right? it's that It's that information being kept from you that really makes me want to lean forward more in the movie. And this one just kind of felt like it gave it all away.
'In the Mouth of Madness': Analysis and Comparison to Other Films
01:08:08
Speaker
um And then very similar to what you said about, you know, Prince of Darkness doesn't stick to landing. I just kind of felt like the ending was a little bit, I'm not going to say it was a cop-out because it's not that, but it just wasn't satisfying.
01:08:22
Speaker
mom There wasn't like the movements of this and the pacing was also a little bit weird, but like the movements of this. Were not satisfying in the way that they were in the thing, or even in the way that they, they were a lot of times in the Prince of darkness. And it just kind of.
01:08:40
Speaker
fell in on itself. And what kind of kept me going was that Sam Neill's great. yeah And i' I'm shocked, actually, to to to sort of put the existence of Jurassic Park and this movie that close together in years because... Wow, you're right. That's true. That's really true.
01:08:58
Speaker
like i watch When you said the gear of this, which I hadn't really you know internalized, like, wait a second. Wasn't Jurassic Park like two years later? but yeah Three, four years later, Max? And Sam Neill in that feels old and and he's gone through things and like he knows and he's like he's the archeologist. And in this, he definitely seems like the piece of shit you know a freelance insurance broker who thinks he knows everything and comes in there and you know whatever, screws people over who are trying to screw other people over. you know but Yeah, I just, it never felt like it completed anything and the relationship between him and her was kind of weird. And also very similar to, uh, to the candle scenes, uh, in Prince of darkness, where he's walking down there. I'm like, cool. There's just fires and barrels everywhere. We got fires.
01:09:45
Speaker
so the city related nakedby But there was, it never, who it just never got there for me. Like the thing really did and Prince of darkness sometimes did this for me. And this is also now a movie that I own because that's the way that the internet, my friends enjoy. It basically feels like, ah you know,
01:10:11
Speaker
I serve this without knowing that I want this or being confident that I want this, but but this feels like a movie that could go with like another 20 or 30 minutes of like more filling in some blanks and things like that. And none of them necessarily, like for me it was the uh, the incompleteness of it is kind of part of what we're experiencing. You know, if you view it as though he's the character and in, in Sutter Kane's story, you know, we're watching the story play out as we watch the movie. So we're not aware of the entire story until we see it in the movie, blah, blah, blah. I could say that on repeat, but, um, I think that like watching it
01:10:58
Speaker
There's just more of that could be done more interestingly. Like it feels incomplete in a way, but I don't know that I want more of it or that more of it would like, it's one of those things where it's like, I, it feels incomplete, but I feel like if I got more, I would just be more unsatisfied with it. I feel like I'm looking at what I reviewed this movie in the past on letterbox and I give it a four out of five. And I think I'll give it a four out of five again.
01:11:25
Speaker
Um, but I can totally understand why you would hate this Kyle or why anybody would hate this because especially of these three, this is the weakest one by a country mile in terms of, for me, like the, the completeness of the story or like.
01:11:42
Speaker
being able to like enjoy it because you're not so disconnected from it because it's so confusing. um But it definitely as well has some really cool moments and like I'm a sucker for Lovecraftian, otherworldly, unknowingly evil things. What what is what is the HP Lovecraft? Can you enlighten me? i don't know this I don't know anything about this. When you said that earlier, Alex, i don't tell me what is that?
01:12:09
Speaker
in terms of this movie specifically or like Lovecraft in general? Both. oh I'll take a stab and then Alex, if you want to take a stab, you might be a little familiar with Lovecraft than I am. I've never actually read any of his original stuff, maybe some short things, but essentially he his whole shtick, if you want to call it that, is like, um,
01:12:36
Speaker
unknowingly evil, like unquantifiably dark and evil creations and machinations and things like that. So Cthulhu is probably his most well-known monster or elder god, um but it's really just like, ah if you ever want to boil it down, it's like a shit like his own universe of monsters and like things being from the dark of eternity and um ancient evil kind of things. And so um I think in this movie, you know, the Sutter Cane's new editors as he calls them, or new publishers as he calls them, this ancient evil that lived in Hob's end and was reawakened by him or whatever that is. So that's a really choppy, bad explanation.
01:13:31
Speaker
I think you definitely got at some like some key things there. The things I would add are one big theme in Lovecraft. I'm thinking of the novella that this is probably most directly paying homage to ah at the Mountains of Madness.
01:13:48
Speaker
and One of the themes there is um horrors beyond human comprehension. And when a human mind sees one of these elder gods, one of these monsters, it fractures upon itself. People go crazy when they see these creations. um So I'd say that's one core theme. And um another is just having things be so scary that they are indescribable.
01:14:18
Speaker
that there are so many facets to these monsters that have tentacles and are inhumanly big. um And there's a lot of horror and fiction that's Lovecraft inspired that you might have seen, Kyle. So things like The Mist, the adaptation of a Stephen King um novel is Lovecraft inspired.
01:14:40
Speaker
um you know ah the first Hellboy movie has a lot of Lovecraft DNA. um Stephen King is heavily inspired by Lovecraft, just the idea of these these elder gods, these beings that have always been here that are beyond human comprehension and will drive us crazy if we if we encounter them. So it's definitely playing with the the insanity part.
01:15:05
Speaker
and tentacles. Lovecraft's Love Tints and Tentacles, Carpenter, I feel like really taps into that in this movie. um But before we get into ah more Elder Gods bullshit, I want to grab this a little bit and talk about what I loved about this movie because I thought this was Head and Shoulders Above, Prince of Darkness. hey look The thing is a perfect genre flick. This does not come anywhere near close to touching the thing, but I liked this the second best for sure.
01:15:37
Speaker
and I think what helped me latch onto it was Sam Neill's character and Sam Neill's arc. In a lot of ways, it feels like it has the most straightforward traditional narrative, where we've seen this story before, where it's a cynic who gets dragged into the world of the supernatural and has his illusions shattered. And, you know, I thought that was all very well done. I thought Sam Neill's descent into madness was very, like,
01:16:08
Speaker
realistically sketched out where it could have been extremely cartoonish and extremely hammy. I thought that was, you know, he gave a great performance here.
01:16:19
Speaker
um I don't know what I just said, sorry. but i'm doing mojo sorry but that That's great. oh And yeah, so I really latched on to Sam Neil's arc, and I think that helps me. And I just love a good road trip movie. So I like that we got the journey to um whatever that fictional town that they go to.
01:16:47
Speaker
Hobson, thank you. um I like that part of it. As you mentioned, Kyle, things do start to deteriorate. And I agree that the relationship between our protagonist and ah the love interest wasn't fully fleshed out.
01:17:05
Speaker
um beyond her like being corrupted and being possessed but I think what elevated this is that when we do get the revelation that this is all um a work of fiction that was brought to life that we're seeing in action I dig the hell out of that and that resonates with me deeply as someone who was an English major and is a writer and editor and just I i like things that play with the power of storytelling and the ways that the lines between fiction and reality can become blurred and
01:17:40
Speaker
Even though in some ways we get too much too much exc explanation and in some ways not enough, I thought that breaking down of those was boundaries and the way that that is highlighted visually with um all of the nightmare scenes. I think we get like a quadruple nightmare wake up, which is amazing. um And there's a great jump scare there.
01:18:02
Speaker
but um Yeah, there was just a lot here that that resonated with me, both ah narratively, thematically, and I just thought this was a fun, scary time. This definitely creeped me out the most of the three that we watched. Yeah. i and i And I mean, I can appreciate, I can a i can definitely appreciate cany your take on that and how it how it speaks to you.
01:18:26
Speaker
were Where it kind of kills me though, is I want the book and the writing to be the scary part. yeah And in the end, it's kind of like the author is the scary part. And I almost, and what I almost kind of wanted Sutter came to be scared of himself.
01:18:48
Speaker
and scared of this power that he doesn't understand. And that, that, that's kind of like, cause that, I don't know that again, I'm just rewriting the movie for my own benefit and all that. But yeah, like that's, that's just what I wanted out of it. And it was just frustrating that at the end we got this like villain that I was like, I don't fucking care about you. It's not, it's not a horror movie, but have you ever seen a stranger than fiction? but yeah Yes. Yes. Yeah. And some would call that fucking horrible.
01:19:16
Speaker
no Arguably, yeah, I can see that. I feel like, you know, I hear what you're saying because I feel like it's almost like um in a way it's like this movie, especially, you know, the end scene for sure of him going into the cinema and watching himself. Very meta. But even like shortly before that, when he encounters Sutter Kane ostensibly in the church,
01:19:39
Speaker
Um, and he sutter, you know, tells them, gives them the final manuscript and goes with his publishers, you know, tears himself. open and and opens the page of the book and we see the book and Neil looks through the page or looks out of the book into the world where the otherworldly demons come. I almost feel like this movie should have been more meta. I would have been more interested in it if it would have like told a more interesting story of like
01:20:15
Speaker
them realizing they're in the book or him realizing he's in the book and maybe trying to manipulate that to some extent, but not being able to do that or something. And it just kind of scolded the edges with that. And then all of a sudden, by the time we scoot the edge of like, oh, he's like actually in the book, then all of a sudden it's like, actually, he's yeah in the movie, watching the movie that's by John Carpenter at the movie theater. like Which is I think is a great scene, but I feel like maybe if it had been more meta in that regard, there would have been more to see of, like, it opens the question to me of, like, the Sutter Cane that we met, was that even the sutter the real Sutter Cane that was writing the books, or was that the Sutter Cane that was in the book?
01:21:04
Speaker
that was being written. And so he was more evil, I don't know, kind of a thing. I did think that was the weakest part was the Sutter Kane antagonist. It was just a little bit too hokey, a little bit too, you know, I am the god of this universe, kind of, you know, kind of a trope. Yeah. That wasn't as effective for me as if he had stayed, you know, behind the page, so to speak.
01:21:29
Speaker
That is a pretty cool scene when he appears on the bus and tells them that I ever tell you my favorite color is blue. And then he wakes up and the entire bus is like blue. I always thought, I thought visually that was a pretty fun, like, Yeah, I love that. kind a moment Yeah, I just, I just kind of want that. Like I wanted it all to come from similar to the like, I'm a religious person. I have to investigate these things. I'm a scientific person. I have to investigate these things to like, I, I, you know, I am a writer who can CB King's a great example. I mean, that dude cannot stop writing. It just comes out of him. Right. Um, and that kind of.
01:22:06
Speaker
Exploiting that drive that writers have to just write and and and kind of being a slave to it and not being the agent would have I would have just kind of loved that a little bit more like that you know and that um honestly that maybe would have gone to more of like being some trolls and beyond in a way that Yeah, and all those things. I don't know. I also think that those they think those two characters, same Neil, I don't remember who plays the female lead, but they needed to have sex and I needed to get really weird. I liked. Yeah, but I was robbed of that. I was right. I thought it I thought it was building to that and we never got it. Never got it. And I was like ready for it before. Yeah, I was ready for it to get super weird. And it just never did. And yeah, I don't know.
01:22:54
Speaker
Yeah. The closest, the closest we got to sex is the old lady having her naked husband handcuffed to her ankle. No, that was, that was affecting. Cause that yeah always the the, the grandmother and happy Gilmore. And anytime she shows up anywhere else, thank you yes. yeah Anytime she shows up anywhere else and it's creepy. I'm like.
01:23:15
Speaker
What's happening? Grandma? you know um It feels like a violation of that like that kind, warm character. It's like, you shouldn't be this like evil presence. What's going on? on yeah She's also never been young. it's like i don't handle yeah yeah Never show me a movie where she's young. I don't want i don't want to see that shit. so say good yeah This reminds me, I was going to mention with Prince of Darkness, did either if you watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine,
01:23:42
Speaker
I have watched some, yes. You know, the two bumbling, older cops, Scully, I forget the other character's name. One of them, the bald one played the guy in Prince of darkness who the fat fatter guy, balding guy who gets possessed early or killed. the He's not the first person possessed, but he's killed by the first woman that's possessed. She like breaks his neck.
01:24:08
Speaker
Uh, which is just an interesting cameo. I thought there was a lot of great character actors and, uh, more, more than any of the other movies in, in the mouth of madness. I mean, you've got, uh, John Glover, who was the administer of the the psych ward, who, um, played a bunch of like different roles in the eighties and nineties and was.
01:24:31
Speaker
Winel, looser and smallville and stuff like that. David Warner, uh, who was the guy interviewing Sam Neil in the insane asylum. Uh, he was in Titanic and, uh, it most notably in teenage maintenance turtles to the secret of the moves. It's like the insurance owner who employs Sam Neil at the beginning.
01:24:57
Speaker
Uh, the thing I always know that guy from is revenge of the nerds. Um, she's like the, the head of the the black fraternity that the the nerds join or whatever.
01:25:09
Speaker
Um, and then probably most notably in here is, um, uh, what's his name? Uh, you're talking Tarleton Heston. Yes. and No, I wasn't sure. Uh, yes. But I was specifically going to talk about Vigo the Carpathian, uh, from Ghostbusters two, who is the dude that shoots himself in the town in, in the mouth of madness and the bar towards the end.
01:25:38
Speaker
I'm glad you brought that up because I, I love that moment. And I think that's the scariest moment in me or me in any of these three movies, because I just, I'm very creeped out by the idea of being a character in someone else's story. And I'm like, fated to follow a certain course of action because it was written that way. And I think he just sells the hell out of that, like kind of resigned. Well, I'm going to shoot myself now. It's what I'm supposed to do. yeah It was a very chilling moment for me. I love that.
01:26:08
Speaker
Yeah, that was definitely a good, like, a kind of a creepy moment. And like, it's fast, like that character, however small it is, is interesting that he's like the only person in the town that Sam Neill talks to that's seemingly normal or aware of what's going on, at least the first time he encounters him. And then the second time he says the other thing creepy where he's like, I don't know what came first, us or the book, ah which is also pretty cool when you think about it.
01:26:39
Speaker
Yeah, it just all comes back to me for that that for for the for the writing and and what's scary and what's motivating things like that. That one scene where Samuel's talking on the phone to someone about the books and he's like, yeah, you know, it's there's just a little, there's something here. It just gets you. I just wanted so much more from that well and I feel like you know we just went to the weird antagonist stuff. But I mean, you know it what it also was,
01:27:07
Speaker
there are some ski There was definitely some scary parts. there was some interesting i mean I liked some of the stuff we saw visually. and yeah oh yeah yeah more than More than pretty much anything I saw in Prince of Darkness.
01:27:22
Speaker
okay um You know what I mean? i Yeah, I guess I'll say that. like like la he's Like he said, I was the road trip aspect, um the town stuff, the trip to the church stuff, just just some of the i mean the the yeah the insane asylum. I mean, a lot of those a lot of those things I just appreciated visually in a way that I never got any of that in Prince of Darkness, really. But yeah.
01:27:43
Speaker
yeah I feel like you can, it I don't know what the budgets are for these, but this one feels like it had the biggest budget, certainly the the biggest sets and things like that yeah and and trying to so see like scope and and stuff.
Ranking of the Discussed Films
01:27:56
Speaker
Cause I feel like for me, like some of the, I mean, some of the effects of Prince of darkness are really fun, but I wouldn't say they're great. They're just like, because I love thinking about the mechanics of how they did them. They're really cool and unique.
01:28:13
Speaker
Um, but in the mouth of madness feels much more like realistically unsettling. Like when the the agent you breaks through the window with the ax at the beginning and, and do to read Sutter Cane and has like the double pupils in each eye. Like that's really great. And then later on, Sam Neil goes to the store to buy Sutter Cane books and there's the dude there.
01:28:38
Speaker
um that's like kind of pseudo possessed and he sees the kid at the end when he's ah attacks the kid with the axe like um don't does I will not go as far as to say that in the muffin, this feels more realistic to me, but like the, some of the visuals feel more realistically unsettling to me than the other movies for sure. Yeah. More fleshed out. And they're definitely falling into that cliche, but I thought that the creepy kids in this movie were exceptionally creepy. Yeah. what say Like the makeup was done. It was very unnerving. Yes, for sure. Uh, shouldn't you wrap this up with our final thoughts maybe?
01:29:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think we should do some rankings maybe and I think it'd be fun if we could rank both our order of what we like the most and the least and what we found the scariest and the least scary.
01:29:32
Speaker
Okay. Um, I'll go first as, as the picker of these, I would say, uh, you know, the thing goes far and above but for, for either of these like solid five out of five best movie of all time. Um, and then probably put, um,
01:29:50
Speaker
You know, and out of a five-star rating, I would probably give both In the Mouth of Madness and Prince of Darkness four out of five. But for me, I think Prince of Darkness just gets a little bit of an edge above In the Mouth of Madness, but not much. And it's probably kind of one of those things that depends on what kind of mood I'm in or something.
01:30:09
Speaker
um To that point of like what I found the scariest um I don't know that any of these feel particularly scary to me anymore, because I've watched them so many times that I'm like so desensitized to that. But I would say that a feeling
01:30:34
Speaker
Prince of Darkness gives me a feeling of isolation more than the—well, obviously more than in the Moth of Madness. I don't think isolation is a huge piece of that, but like even more so than the thing, Prince of Darkness feels more unnerving because For me to find myself at an Antarctic research base completely cut off from the world, there would have to be a lot of dominoes to fall to get to that point. Whereas like for me to somehow, make not not that I spend a lot of time in churches, ah but for me to somehow be stuck in a creepy church in a metropolitan area feels much more realistic. um like That environment
01:31:21
Speaker
feels much more accessible and realistic. And that idea of being suddenly being in a building and like being cut off from the world is kind of terrifying to me in that way. so um and And yeah, even though it didn't have the same kind of scare effect um this time around, but that video clip kind of stuff like just still creeps a little bit under my skin. Alex, how about you?
01:31:51
Speaker
Yeah, in terms of you know which I like the most, the thing is obviously on that masterpiece tier, ah really impeccable. um I think after that, I do really like In the Mouth of Madness. That is one that I would be excited to rewatch one day, whereas I can't really see myself ever rewatching Prince of Darkness unless I maybe want to show someone just to have them experience a weird, kind of conceptually ambitious but trippy movie. um And then, yeah, Prince of Darkness is number three. For what I found the scariest, I do think that In the Mouth of Madness unnerved me the most.
01:32:35
Speaker
I think that concept of being driven to insanity was executed really well and I found that The Sense by Sam Neill really convincingly portrayed and there were just a lot of images from that movie that get under my skin when I think about them. um Prince of Darkness is probably after that.
01:32:56
Speaker
i um I think it does a great job of building dread in that first half hour when you're not really sure what's happening and it's kind of taking you deeper and deeper into the interior of this church and you're seeing the shots of the bugs coalescing and the homeless and insane people outside getting closer and closer. um I think that's all really unnerving and effective.
01:33:19
Speaker
and I can't say the thing scared me at all. And that may just be because of how well I know it. I've only seen it at once. I just know it through pop culture osmosis. And I think I'm just having too much fun with the thing where I'm smiling at the craftsmanship. I'm loving the music. I'm loving the writing. It's just too delightful of a film for me to ever really be scared by it. Whereas the others who were more unpredictable because I knew them less and they, they frightened me more.
01:33:50
Speaker
What about you, Kyle? um It's interesting. I guess well it's it's the thing for me, I had shoulders above, and then Prince of Darkness, and then In the Mouth of Madness last, which should be a shock to anyone, based on what I've said here today. I wish i wouldn't have loved if Hero came out and said, I hated the thing more than anything else. That it's like, bottom of the barrel movie for me.
01:34:11
Speaker
Yeah, ultimate reversal. Um, and, uh, in terms of, in terms of what scared me, I guess scared for me, and this goes back to my initial story, scared for me is not what scares me in the moment.
01:34:28
Speaker
Scared for me is like what I can't shake after, right? Because the sixth sense certainly scared me. There's the exorcist certainly scared me. um Jurassic Park scared me. But like, there's the what am I thinking about as I'm falling asleep that night? And is it keeping me awake?
01:34:48
Speaker
And of the three movies, the thing actually, unlike unlike what what you said, Dustin, ah before I had a wife and child, I could absolutely see myself fielding a phone call from some unknown number and them being like, listen, we're going to give you 300K. You're going to go to the Antarctic. You're going to handle shit. You don't need to be a scientist. but like You're going to go. You're going to be there for a year. this is what And I would be like,
01:35:13
Speaker
Yeah, I'm going. like I used to, I used to look to see like twice a year, I would look and see if they were hiring like food service people. Cause you can, you can go run a six month stint. And for, for average shows like us that don't have a PhD in mineral science, we would literally have to be a custodian or like a chef.
01:35:32
Speaker
Uh, or a line cook to, to have a role down there, but there, there was that opportunity. So I, I agree with that. I can see that. Yeah. And that and very different different from ah going in the middle of nowhere in South Korea, Kyle, yeah but yeah honestly, the terrifying level that drive into the mountains took when you're just retreating from the city, you're like, Oh, I'm in the city. It'll be fine. And then you just drive to some fucking unknown place.
01:35:55
Speaker
Yeah, that I agree. And so and so in like, sort of similar to how well you said Alex about like insanity and mouth of madness. Now that's affecting like, the breakdown of insanity in the thing with all those people granted, it's very justified with what's going on. But kind of the I don't I can't trust my own eyes or even myself. I felt that was like affecting in the thing and and um my wife is away when I watched all these my wife and child were away when I watched all these movies and the one that like,
01:36:26
Speaker
There was just a little bit of a, you know, I'm just going to put, I'm just going to put the shade down. I'm just going to put the shade. I'm just going to close that door. I don't know why, but those, all that was, was after I watched the thing and the Prince of darkness and mouth of madness didn't have that kind of lasting effect on me in any way. Um, yeah.
Preview of Next Episode and Closing Remarks
01:36:46
Speaker
Okay.
01:36:47
Speaker
um well Well, Alex, do you want to share what you've got on deck for our next episode and then I'll um do a little outro here. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited for this one. We are doing three films that all use color in interesting ways. And for those, I have selected Suspiria, the original, not the remake, Kurosawa's Ran, and um Portrait of a Lady on Fire for number three.
01:37:21
Speaker
Very exciting. I've only ever seen Suspiria myself, so I'm excited to watch those other two. I've only they ever seen Ron, so. Awesome. Well, um, this is triple take cinema, three guys and three movies, and, uh, we'll see you guys next week.
01:37:38
Speaker
they