Oops!Zencastr was unable to start because Javascript is disabled
To fix this problem, check your browser's settings and enable Javascript

Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!

00:00:00

00:00:01

Coming of Age, Part 2

Triple Take Cinema

25 Plays1 month ago

Kyle brings it back to part two of his “Coming of Age” theme with these three:

Persepolis (2007) — 1:20
Boy (2010) — 28:19
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004) — 48:55

Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.

We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.

There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.

Transcript

Introduction to 'Triple Take' Podcast

00:00:00

kyle

What's up? Welcome to triple take, triple take cinema. We got, we got Alex, we got Dustin, we got three.

00:00:07

kyle

We got myself as well, the speaker cow. Uh, we got three coming of age tales or maybe a debate about things not being coming of age tales.

Dustin's First-Time Movie Experiences

00:00:16

kyle

I'm excited for it.

00:00:17

kyle

We have, uh, we have Dustin watching a movie for the first time, which

00:00:22

dustinzick

All three of these, first time.

00:00:23

kyle

all All three of these.

00:00:24

Alex

Wow.

00:00:25

kyle

Dustin and I are really just pushing each other's boundaries. And that's what I'm here for.

00:00:25

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:00:28

dustinzick

Oh yeah, yeah.

00:00:29

kyle

It's very it's very good. All three, but one one true gem that he's been getting a lot of shit for in his life for not seeing. And we're finally rectifying that.

00:00:39

dustinzick

Accurate, accurate.

00:00:40

kyle

Yeah.

Overview of Discussed Films

00:00:41

kyle

So the movies that we are ah we're diving into this week are Taika Waititi's Boy. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind by Michel Gondry and Charlie Kaufman and and Persepolis.

Introduction to 'Persepolis' and Initial Impressions

00:00:58

kyle

And Persepolis is a movie I came across back when I was able to actually watch movies in theaters and I could go to little art houses and it's an animated movie about a girl coming up in the Iranian revolution. So yeah.

00:01:13

kyle

i i don't i don't really I don't really know where to start. Does anyone have ah have an idea of where they

Discussion of 'Persepolis' Themes and Impact

00:01:18

kyle

want to start? We're not going to start with Eternal Sunshine. what what's ah yeah

00:01:23

Alex

Yeah, I think we should start with Persepolis. What I think is funny about that is our last episode was on uses of color in movie. And I was definitely cracking up to myself when Persepolis starts off in color, immediately switches to black and white with that flashback. Feels like a perfect entry point. And I'll just say I had not seen Persepolis before we were did homework for this episode. And I really, really dug it. I thought it was a phenomenal movie.

00:01:53

Alex

um Yeah, Dustin and Kyle would love to hear your thoughts on on Persepolis and maybe Persepolis in the context of being a coming of age movie Kyle and kind of what you're your thought process was in in picking it.

00:02:07

kyle

Yeah, um so as a, you know, it's it's a movie, like I said, I saw it in the theater a while ago. I think I just saw it the one time, but it did have a pretty lasting effect on me. I think part of the reason that it had a lasting effect on me, I think the her story is is is very good, but it's also one of those movies that makes you realize how much you don't know about the world.

00:02:38

kyle

um it's ah It's one of those, yeah, like I remember seeing this for the first time and just kind of over and over again, this thought would hit me and it would just be, I had no idea what was happening in that part of the world at all in any way, shape or form in the last whatever, 40, 50, 60 years, no clue, none.

00:02:53

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:02:55

Alex

Nope.

00:02:58

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:02:59

kyle

And, yeah

00:03:01

dustinzick

I mean, certainly like in into the I mean, well, I don't think any of us I'm assuming you didn't watch this in 2007 when it released. ah But even I mean, thinking back to 2007, I was a sophomore junior in college and I had no concept of Iran beyond, you know, geopolitical news, like mainstream news of

00:03:28

Alex

Right. Same.

00:03:29

dustinzick

Not a great country that doesn't like America, but like the history of Iran, so much that is richly part of her story here. No concept at that point in my life. And frankly, not even really and until the last 10 years that I really wrapped my head around you know the last 50 to 60 years of Iran and like how much changed and everything there.

00:03:56

kyle

Yeah, and that was that's it's funny to say that I did actually see this in the theaters when it came out in 2007.

00:04:00

dustinzick

ah wow okay

00:04:01

kyle

Yeah, it was a movie that I was 2007 I would have graduated college, this would have been around, you know, me really getting a little bit into film more seriously and being stuck in kind of Rochester in between stops in my life.

00:04:14

kyle

And it was a great little art house there that was playing it. And it was just I think I had a almost an unlimited movie pass there or like something that allowed me to go see movies for like four bucks. And it was it was you know just the kind of thing that I saw.

00:04:25

dustinzick

Oh, wow. OK. OK.

00:04:27

kyle

And I was like, oh, that looks really interesting. And I mean, the animation itself, I think is... um So for me, yeah, it so it was like a little bit of ah any coming of age show that also teaches me something I feel like maybe has a little extra teaches me something in ah in an entertaining way It just has a little bit extra and it also has that whole section where you know, she goes to France and she gets into that pseudo philosophy, you know philosophical group and of the nihilists and that was stuff that I was into at the time so the ah the whole thing though, but the the animation I think is

00:05:01

kyle

it's gorgeous and it's it's kind of amazing what can be accomplished with just a lot of black and white and a lot of really deft transitions between, you know, like to go, to be able to spin, it's frankly a lot to tackle, to tackle, you know, the young girl's, um her story and also the entire story of of that changed her in.

00:05:10

dustinzick

Mmhmm.

00:05:25

kyle

And, Yeah, I just, you know, there's the, the it also is a, this this does tend to happen in some coming of age tales. Frequently it does, I would say, because, ah you know, at some point you have to cut it off, right? But this, this movie more than anything at the end, I was like, oh man, that's where we end this? Like, it feels like there's a whole nother epoch in this person's life. And that little coming of age tale from the time where she was super young to like, what, 22?

00:05:54

kyle

you know, she when she when she kind of forges off in there.

00:05:56

Alex

It's a long span that we were along for the ride for.

00:06:00

kyle

Yeah, it definitely is. But it and it really, and I feel this way also like, about about a lot and we'll get to this in boy as well. But the movie's ability to handle really difficult emotional,

00:06:18

kyle

physical situations, but just

00:06:22

kyle

while still maintaining lightness a lot of the time was something that I didn't have a true appreciation for or a memory of when I watched it the first time. And I think it's something that I almost feel I had to age into in terms of being able to really understand you know that.

00:06:46

kyle

you know When I see this in 2007, I'm 23, I'm 24. I'm still kind of in that period of time in my life where I'm like all extremes.

00:06:58

kyle

And so the the ability to handle something that

00:06:58

dustinzick

Mm.

00:07:03

kyle

uh, you know, that important in that part of the world and, and kind of sub huge changes that are having impact. I mean, you know, six years is not that Iran and whatever, but like the middle East and, and obviously nine 11 was kind of like all that all like really burst into my life in a way where, I mean, yeah, like the Gulf war was a playing card set for me. And this, you know, nine 11 to the next 10, 15 years after that, obviously the middle East becomes much more for on the forefront of of kind of our experience.

00:07:34

kyle

And so yeah, as as a coming of each show, I think it it does really well. It doesn't really, it doesn't like sit to to like, it really moves quite, quite, quite fast.

00:07:44

dustinzick

Oh, yeah.

00:07:45

Alex

Oh yeah.

00:07:46

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:07:47

kyle

And I think that's a testament to some of the animation as well, like really weaving very quickly, like you just you're in her life, you're in the bigger revolution, you're in these characters, you're having these one-off conversations with people that are involved in the struggle.

00:08:02

kyle

And yeah, I mean, it just kind of, it really, I guess it really felt like it took me there to that time and place and allowed me to get into that world very, very deeply.

00:08:08

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:08:15

kyle

And, you know, also, you It's interesting to have, know, when I was growing up, we had, for a couple of years, we had a refugee from Kosovo live with us.

00:08:27

kyle

And it was certainly something that shed a lot of light on that, of this displacement of a young person. due to safety concerns in their country and how you do that to try to help a person, but what it can open them up to, not necessarily worse, but it's just it's not it's not safe waters.

00:08:54

kyle

And and you know kind of seeing the the absolute lows that she went to during the journey to be able to pick herself up

00:09:03

Alex

Yeah, man, the vienna the Vienna portion of the movie is like pretty harrowing. It gets really dark what happens to her.

00:09:08

kyle

Yeah.

00:09:10

Alex

And like you know coming back to um to Iran and like her perspective and how you know she just wants to not talk about that with her parents.

00:09:20

Alex

but That made a big impact on me too, i you know just seeing like where she goes in that middle portion when she's in Vienna and she's finding herself and she gets real, um even you know with the comparative context of everything happening back home geopolitically in in Iran.

00:09:40

dustinzick

Yeah, I feel like the, I mean, to to kind of bevy up of what you said earlier, Alex, in terms of the the color and how, you know, the movie, anybody listening should know this by now, but the it's ah fully animated and it starts in color to identify present day and then transitions for flashback, most of the movies told in flashbacks.

00:10:06

dustinzick

in black and white. But even in spite of that, like the the dimensionality that they accomplish with the the animation um is really like enthralling and and really captures your attention and keeps you engaged. And I'll be honest, like the the cover for this, ah the the DVD artwork, is something I certainly recognize seeing, no doubt, in 2007, 2008 on the shelf at Blockbuster.

00:10:33

dustinzick

or a local video store. um But at the time, its it didn't call to me. And I can't honestly say that even in a year ago, even six months ago, obviously, because this is the first time I've seen this movie, um so like sliding through it on streaming, I don't think I would have ever felt compelled to tune in and watch this.

00:10:57

dustinzick

um and And in a way, I feel like the the the cover like my initial gut reaction would be because the the animation style in the cover like doesn't look that appealing to me. And candidly, I feel like in general, animation, when it's not clearly like when it's not how a traditional like normative view of like oh it's a pixar movie or something animation to me feels it's there's a bit of a higher barrier to entry which there shouldn't be because almost every time i've like pushed through that barrier to entry and watched an animated feature um especially like an adult animated feature that's not x-rated kind of a thing but like a an adult oriented one i've always enjoyed it i've always found it to be

00:11:51

dustinzick

but Maybe not always, but a lot of times I found it to be like particularly enthralling. and Especially, you know these this wasn't like a documentary by say per se, but it was non-fiction. I think that stuff always like hits me and and reverberates with me because this made me think of an animated documentary I saw in 2002, I think. It was called Flee.

00:12:19

dustinzick

And it was basically about a ah refugee from Afghanistan who I can't remember. I have it here. I don't remember what decade it was. ah But his story, he was gay and his, um you know, coming of age in his sexuality, in his culture and things like that. um And I loved that. I believe it was like a featured movie for film festival members of the Milwaukee Film Festival.

00:12:49

dustinzick

um And so my wife and I just watched it because it was we can see it for free and um I was floored by how enthralling it was and that's exactly how I feel about this movie like I I found the story enthralling I I do like current events and you know in politics and and international affairs, and that stuff is interesting to me already. um But the way that this story was told with her perspective um and and her coming of age growth, but then also the

00:13:25

dustinzick

um I mean I I don't think from our political alignment you would call what iran had transitioned to over her lifetime as coming of age but it's like anti coming of age right like iran culturally regressed in many ways due to the the government rule um and in both of those things the dichotomy of them I feel like was really compelling and interesting to me and that the the animation by virtue of being animation allowed the storytelling to be more nimble and to jump back and forth and to tell a grander story than it would have been able to tell were it non-fiction presented in what's the opposite of animated real footage, real life.

00:14:10

kyle

Yeah.

00:14:12

dustinzick

um Obviously the budget needs to be higher there and stuff and That's all to say, yeah. like i this is you know This combined with Flea, now I'm like, okay, I really need to like start picking up both graphic novels and movies that I know are not kid animated movies, but like tell a serious story, even if the the animation doesn't like initially enthralled me. like Maybe the story will catch me enough that it doesn't matter. Or like the story will catch me and I'll be like, oh no, this visually is is a real treat because this movie was such a treat visually. um Which I feel like, yeah, the the static animation on the cover belies that. but

00:14:54

dustinzick

It makes me want to pick up the actual graphic novel it's based off of because I feel like seeing it told over multiple pages and multiple minutes on film um actually brings a lot of character and depth to that her style of animation.

00:15:10

kyle

Yeah, I have a couple of there's a couple of scenes that really stick out to me just that. and Yeah, I mean, kind of that that this gripped me a little bit and and I can still picture very vividly, but I'm curious, do either of you have um like a scene or an image from ah from the animation that that kind of sticks with you.

00:15:31

kyle

And i'll I'll give you my two as you ponder. But um the the two that I kind of go with is when ah the crowd is holding up the body of one of the protesters that was killed.

00:15:42

kyle

And it's this the the you know that just just an image that seems very, if that was a painting, you know what I mean? Like that'd be something that could just you could just hang up and it would really have an incredible amount of impact.

00:15:51

dustinzick

Well, in that scene, and I think there's like two or three other that are... It's like the animation style even gets simpler, if if I recall correctly. like it it It regresses in a good way of like there's less definition of faces and things like that. It becomes almost like a shadow puppet.

00:16:12

kyle

Yeah.

00:16:12

dustinzick

kind of thing which um Is not I mean I'd almost say that's it's becoming more cliche now because I can think of at least two movies that I feel like that do that kind of shadow puppet storytelling and that's one of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows and the new Candyman movie um but it like when done well as it's done here, it's a very effective way of kind of delineating between like, okay, like this, the the rest of the movie is her story from her perspective and what she knows about it.

00:16:29

Alex

and so

00:16:44

dustinzick

And then this is like showing the real events of what happened as they happen kind of thing. So I didn't mean to derail from that, but I, those scenes in particular stuck out to me, all of them, but yeah, that's a great one.

00:16:53

kyle

No.

00:16:58

kyle

Yeah. Yeah, the ah the other one that really sticks with me and it's more of a scene and less of an image but it's it's when they break up the party and and the the men are running away on the rooftops and they all jump and this one guy hesitates and jumps and doesn't make it in between and the way that the information is given um is just kind of devastating and the way that the guards just walk up and look over and just kind of shrug their shoulders like, alright, well.

00:17:24

kyle

got one, I guess, um is just so indicative of the ah the struggle that that they are all going through to somewhat be free. And now there's just nobody there to, yeah, like she has all this support, but she has to leave it. I don't know. And then I guess the third one that always sticks with me is when the mother faints the first time that her faints her. I'm not really sure exactly what you want to call it, but but yeah, it just kind of collapses when she says goodbye.

00:17:52

kyle

to to her the first time. And yeah, that scene. It's always amazing.

00:17:58

Alex

Yeah, really powerful.

00:17:58

kyle

yeah Really powerful stuff. And it and it and it yeah affect all these things affect me so much more now that I have a kid. And the boy, it was rough in a lot of ways because of that.

00:18:09

kyle

But but yeah, what about images for you, Alex?

00:18:12

Alex

Yeah, I'm glad you commented on the definition, Dustin, in relation to just the overall animation style. Because as we were talking about why this didn't grab you, I had a similar reaction to seeing ah trailers for this, seeing um you know posters. We own the graphic novel, so I've seen just the cover of the graphic novel. And something about the animation style where it was so, and I keep thinking of words like you know simplistic or crude, and those are more derogatory than I think I ah intend, which really is that kind of

00:18:49

Alex

It's not going for a photo realism and it's not going for really highly detailed. It's using these kind of you know simplistic drawings and these very kind of clean, clear lines to tell a very emotionally complex story and how that contrasts with um you know maybe the more kind of straightforward, pared down animation. And I think an example of that that really resonated with me is when um Our protagonist's name is Margie.

00:19:21

dustinzick

Martens.

00:19:22

kyle

I think.

00:19:22

Alex

Yeah, Margie. Where Margie's in the schoolyard and the nuns are reprimanding her for her um ah her denim jacket with ah with the punk as dead.

00:19:35

Alex

And the way that they're animated, where they have no, like, bodies, where their religious garb just makes them look like serpents, you know, who are kind of like coiled and waving upright.

00:19:47

Alex

um I thought was so powerful and impactful. It communicates a lot of the subtext about religious fundamentalism and how that's kind of the homogenee homogeneity of that is something that's a negative impact on Iran culturally. And I just love the image of them as serpents kind of slithering around Marjay and, you know, really being an oppressive force um the other animation moment that really stick out to me was just one I thought was funny as hell and it's when she's going through puberty and it's communicating like the gangly awkwardness of puberty and like her nose like blossoms forward and then like you know her boobs pop out and it's just a great little visual shorthand great little gag that uses the animation and again I think

00:20:40

Alex

um It uses the more paired back animation style to its strength to make the joke funnier because you're just getting that pure silhouette. You're getting the pure like nose you know kind of shooting outward. Those are my two picks.

00:20:56

dustinzick

Yeah, I was going to say that the puberty scene for me was just the one that like I feel like really used the anim... Exactly what you said, basically, Alex. like Used the fact that it was animation to... kind of show the absurdity and the awkwardness of it in a way that you know kind of hit home for me and just thinking of like things changing without your control and like suddenly you feel like you're this different person and I thought it did a good job too of effectively

00:21:33

dustinzick

speeding up the story or where we were in her story and ah in a fun but relatable way, right like where she transitioned from being a child to to growing up through puberty. in That sequence was so short, but like kind of moved us ahead in the story a little bit.

00:21:53

dustinzick

um And then, yeah, like all of the um you know to Kyle, to your point, all of the the things about like what was going on and the the retelling of certain events that she did not witness or anything but heard about. And um when it it stepped back and became more simplified in that shadow puppet kind of style,

00:22:15

dustinzick

um It really doesn't give you much visual ah details and intricacies to focus on, so you're really kind of taking in the core components of whatever it's portraying on screen. In this instance, they were all pretty devastating and and difficult imagery that was being portrayed, but I think the starkness of it even had a ah stronger underscore on um what was being told and how it was being shown.

00:22:44

kyle

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm really glad um I put this on the list then it was very, it was the third one I put on the list because I was trying to find something that I was a little bit different, um you know, and and I'm glad that it's something that you had both had both it had been orbiting both of you.

00:23:03

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, like I said, it's definitely something that I've like.

00:23:04

kyle

And

00:23:05

Alex

and so Absolutely.

00:23:07

dustinzick

Seen like visually like the cover very much is familiar to me, but I don't think I ever comprehended. You know that it was a. ah Autobiographical story that it was based on a graphic novel ah that it was about Iran. I don't think any of that clicked through like I thought it was probably fiction and.

00:23:31

dustinzick

um just was completely uninterested in it. And I will say, too, I mean, very clearly, I mean, spoiler, I think all three of these qualify as a coming of age, but this one is like an easy 110%.

00:23:48

Alex

Yeah, it checks all the boxes.

00:23:49

dustinzick

I mean, yeah, like there's there's you can't argue that this isn't a coming of age story in any way, shape, or form.

00:23:55

kyle

yeah

00:23:57

Alex

One thing I really loved about this in the context of our coming of age discussions and watch is just even more than boyhood, which is wild given the amount of time that boyhood covers and just the scope of that project, this really hammered home to me that coming of age isn't isn't a moment in time.

00:23:57

kyle

yeah

00:24:16

Alex

It's not like you know, a fixed point where you you come of age.

00:24:18

kyle

Yeah,

00:24:20

Alex

it's ah It's a continuum and it's one that like stretches over years and years.

00:24:23

kyle

yeah

00:24:26

Alex

And I thought this was communicated so well in this movie. And maybe it is that animated style with all of the time jumps and um you're just traveling locations. But I think it's really about Margie's characterization and the way that you see her view of the world kind of evolve and change where it starts off very,

00:24:47

Alex

childlike where she's absorbing and regurgitating the political opinions of everyone around her. um I rewatched the first 30 minutes today and there's that line she has about, um well, the Shah was great. My teacher said the Shah was great. So therefore he is. um And you just see, you know, you see the evolution of her kind of political consciousness. And it was really cool to, you know, as a viewer to see coming of age treated as such a continuum.

00:25:16

Alex

ah both in the sense of you know physical, emotional maturation, but also you know what it looks like to develop a budding political awareness and you know a really like fierce spirit of resistance. And that all resonated with me super strongly.

00:25:35

kyle

Yeah, and I really liked, you know, to that to that point, I really liked the ah ah you the grandmother plays obviously a ah central role and is and is this, yeah, an amazing character and is this non-parental person that she can go to for information and and and just just conversations about what's going on and what to do.

00:25:45

Alex

Totally. Great character.

00:25:57

kyle

and comfort and as well. But then there's that one scene where the grandmother really gives her a lot of shit for not.

00:26:03

dustinzick

Mmhmm.

00:26:04

kyle

And that that to me really, you know it was a nice, I'm not gonna call it a bookend, but like it was a nice counter to that early bit where she is a kid and you know everyone is is trying to teacher but protect her at the same time and she you know yeah she's absorbing everything she's taking it she's taking it in she's the she goes and sees her uncle is once says he's a political prisoner and which is a insane scene to think about doing as a young child um And then, yeah, to ever go through all that stuff and go through Vienna and whatever. And then the the grandmother at some point has to act as this like big check on a lot of that, you know, early or late teenager, early 20 something type of attitude um about life that I thought was yeah just ah a very special moment.

00:26:54

kyle

Uh, in the whole thing, but yeah, no, I love it. It did win an Oscar for best foreign language show, which is probably another reason why you like her a lot. Oh, it was just nominated.

00:27:03

dustinzick

Oh.

00:27:03

kyle

Sorry. It was just nominated, um, for, uh, for, for best animated feature for, for the year, probably lost out to some Pixar movie, but, um, and I'm sure whatever Pixar movie lost out to was good.

00:27:05

Alex

Mm hmm.

00:27:15

kyle

But, uh, but yeah, this is one that for some reason I really gravitated to when, when it came

Introduction to 'Boy' by Taika Waititi

00:27:20

kyle

about. So yeah, I ran it through. It's pretty good.

00:27:23

Alex

All right, Ratatouille is my favorite Pixar movie, so I will.

00:27:23

dustinzick

yeah

00:27:25

kyle

I do. Is it?

00:27:28

Alex

It is. I friggin love Ratatouille.

00:27:29

kyle

Oh, wow.

00:27:30

dustinzick

I have to rewatch, write it too.

00:27:30

kyle

Interesting.

00:27:30

Alex

It has I have a special special connection to that movie.

00:27:34

kyle

I've watched a lot of Reddit too.

00:27:34

dustinzick

where what are you Do you you have a rat that helps you cook?

00:27:35

kyle

like

00:27:38

dustinzick

Is that your connection? Or i do you have a rat that has you do all your writing?

00:27:41

Alex

Yeah, he' he's hanging out.

00:27:45

Alex

Yeah, that that's how I write in edit. it there's There's a rat that sits in the back of my hoodie.

00:27:50

dustinzick

Yeah, OK.

00:27:50

Alex

yeah you can He controls me.

00:27:51

dustinzick

Well, you are wearing a hoodie right now, so you're not.

00:27:53

Alex

ah

00:27:54

kyle

It's real dude like a rat GPT.

00:27:55

dustinzick

Yeah, it seems.

00:27:57

kyle

That's why that's what we call Yeah, yeah Yeah All right.

00:28:00

Alex

ah

00:28:01

dustinzick

I mean, realistically, you could just have it run around the keyboard and hit all the keys. That's how that's how it would happen.

00:28:06

Alex

Yeah, but without the marionette elements, you know, it's just not this fun.

00:28:07

dustinzick

So.

00:28:09

dustinzick

Yeah, that's true.

00:28:10

Alex

I like that. I like to spice it up.

00:28:11

dustinzick

That's true. Yeah.

00:28:12

kyle

Well, let's let's get into boy um um This was this was one that I had not seen and this is one that I didn don't even know how I found it if I'm honest with you um

00:28:21

dustinzick

Yeah, I I'm surprised I've never heard of this, because like.

00:28:24

kyle

me Me too.

00:28:26

dustinzick

Like I do like to cue a TV.

00:28:26

Alex

Yeah.

00:28:29

dustinzick

So how you say the same?

00:28:30

kyle

Tyka, Tyka YTD.

00:28:31

dustinzick

ty tyo on td um but this is like a second movie. like i never I remember Ego versus Shark. and I never saw it, but I remember seeing the the cover of it.

00:28:43

dustinzick

um And I love what we do in the shadows.

00:28:43

Alex

Yep.

00:28:46

dustinzick

That's like one of my favorite mockumentaries of all time. um And obviously, I'm familiar with his more recent work with Thor and Jojo Rabbit and stuff, if you've not seen Jojo Rabbit.

00:28:55

kyle

Yeah, I was going to say Jojo Rabbit.

00:28:58

dustinzick

But um yeah, I had not heard of this at all.

00:28:58

Alex

Yeah, this is a new one for me too. When I when i think of Taika Waititi, early film, Coming of Age, I think, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, and I had no idea that boy ah even existed until you put it on this list, Kyle.

00:29:08

dustinzick

Yeah.

Exploring Themes in 'Boy'

00:29:14

Alex

i And I'm so glad you did because I love this movie as well. I thought it was a great ah great ride.

00:29:19

kyle

Yeah, it really, I mean, this movie, I was watching, I mean, it starts, and I think it's, I think, I like to think, you know, so I'll live in this fantasy land. I like to think that if this movie came on in a dark room with no context, that I would get, and not just because it takes place in New Zealand, but I would get 15 minutes into it and be like, this is a Taika Waititi movie.

00:29:47

dustinzick

Oh yeah.

00:29:48

kyle

Because it he's yeah he is such a mass like he is a master of this space of levity in these devastating situations.

00:29:48

dustinzick

Oh yeah.

00:29:48

Alex

Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:03

kyle

that breeds the ability to get through them and weather them in a way that also you know kind of is able to portray that there's there's nothing to do but get through them and so you might as well have... le it's it's like it's hard to like express frankly but it's something that Daika Waititi and Jojo Rabbit's a great example of this um But like the ability to just sit in these moments and have things happen that are devastating, but somehow inspiring at the same time. um And it takes you on this like very confused emotional journey, but you're you're like with it the whole time. um Yeah, I really, really liked it. And there were so many moments

00:30:52

kyle

um that, that just wrecked me. I don't even really know where to begin and the characters, his, you know, the character he plays as a dad. I was just like difficult to watch at times, but also like, you know that the when I don't know where to begin, but like the scenes were like the the dads.

00:31:13

kyle

role with the family initially it's just like well this is this is obviously the worst like you just abandoned just your family essentially but then you slowly get these pieces of the picture about the events that took place and the mother dying in childbirth and like what that did to the father and what that's done to that family unit in general and how they all stay together and idolize this person who's not away and god that moment where he asks him not to call him dad um

00:31:21

dustinzick

Mm hmm.

00:31:28

Alex

Right.

00:31:42

dustinzick

Yeah. Well, for me, the moment that was, and so I feel like I always get a little triggered. Maybe that's not the right use of that word right now, but a little emotional gut punch in movies that are really centered around like a father and son relationship. I lost my dad when I was 21, which It's a lot later than a lot of people lose their dad, but it was really unexpected. um So like there's there's a fondness for me in an affinity. And that's the extent to which i ah the story in this movie relates to my personal life. like My dad was not a deadbeat dad kind of deal. and

00:32:20

dustinzick

didn't just disappear, but the the scene towards the end when um Boy realizes, you know, that his the pedestal he'd put his father up on isn't real, um and specifically when he, you know, prior to that we see a flashback where after boys, younger brothers born, presumably, you know, his mother died giving birth and her mother and or his grandmother and then his dad are there crying in the the room. And then we've come to find out later on that his dad actually wasn't there.

00:33:01

dustinzick

um And that's when he realized like, you know, all of these things I've held in high regard for my dad are not true and and whatnot. And he kind of goes and attacks his dad and seeing that dynamic of when he's like hitting his dad and his dad's kind of powerless to stop him even though he totally could stop him but you can kind of see in a way his dad feels like he deserves it or doesn't feel like it's unwarranted. um That was like the point to me that like hit the hardest and feeling

00:33:39

dustinzick

Seeing that, i mean that's I guess if there was a moment in this movie of the coming of age, to your point before Alex, like that's kind of it here, right? Where he has this kind of paradigm shift of realizing...

00:33:50

Alex

Totally agreed.

00:33:51

dustinzick

like oh Yeah.

00:33:52

Alex

It happens in that moment. That's when it like and bubbles over.

00:33:56

dustinzick

Yeah, and then I mean, I guess ah not that we can't go back and talk about other parts of this, but like the the poetry for me at the end, when boy and his brother go to the their mother's grave and their dad's just sitting there um after presumably he had left and in gone away. um I thought that was wonder wonderful and how neither of them hesitated to just go and sit and boy kind of.

00:34:22

dustinzick

was like, okay, like your yeah this is okay. like I appreciate you having this emotion, Dad, and and whatnot. And then first brother to ask him how Japan was was pretty great too. That was a good ah good little punctuation point at the end. But yeah, everything like leading up to that Um, like felt very, very authentic and charming in a way. Um, and the, you can see, uh, his dad, I will mean like kind of.

00:34:55

dustinzick

want to be dad, but also completely shrugging off the idea of being dad to your point, Kyle, of when he tells him to not call him dad. But you can also see like little glimmers of him like being like, oh, yeah, like these two kids are are my sons. Like I should I have a role with them, but I don't really know what it is. So I'm trying to figure out what that role is.

00:35:21

dustinzick

while I'm also here trying to find my money, basically.

00:35:26

Alex

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think part of what I loved so much about this movie is that Alameen, the father figure that Waititi plays, is not a one dimensional shithead.

00:35:38

Alex

He has like, he has redeeming qualities that we see throughout the movie, we see his charisma and his likability.

00:35:38

dustinzick

no

00:35:39

kyle

Yeah.

00:35:46

Alex

We see his affinity for pop culture that, yes, he takes it way too far. And that is part of the you know, dismantling of the hero warship with just how obsessed he is with ET, but that's a charming trait that's passed along to Boy.

00:36:01

Alex

um And what I love is that we as viewers kind of immediately know the score when we see Alameen and we're introduced. And it's like, oh, we know this character. He's the deadbeat dad.

00:36:13

Alex

He's rolling up with his jail friends.

00:36:15

kyle

he's a piece of shit yeah

00:36:16

Alex

He's a piece of shit.

00:36:16

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

00:36:17

Alex

exactly Exactly. And I think one of the joys of this movie is that while It is demystifying the hero worship that Boy is built up.

00:36:27

Alex

It is also giving Alameen shades of gray for the viewer and making him more nuanced and likable. So it's almost happening in reverse where we start at opposite points where, you know, Boy has him up on this pedestal, the viewer has him way down here, and we kind of shift to the middle.

00:36:40

kyle

He's a piece of shit, yeah.

00:36:43

dustinzick

yeah

00:36:45

Alex

um And the moment that happens towards the middle of the movie that really encapsulates that for me is when Uh, Alameen tries to slide over the hood of the car and he's doing like, I forget if he's doing like, uh, 90210 like reference or something, but thank you.

00:36:59

dustinzick

No, it's um, it's uh, no, no, no, it's uh, no, no, no, it's um, or am I misthinking though?

00:37:01

kyle

Beverly Hills Cop or something?

00:37:08

dustinzick

He's getting in the dukes of hazard.

00:37:10

Alex

Yeah.

00:37:10

dustinzick

Isn't that what he he's saying?

00:37:10

kyle

Oh, yes yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:10

Alex

Stukes of hazard.

00:37:11

dustinzick

Dukes of hazard. Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:12

kyle

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:12

Alex

That's, that's totally ah right.

00:37:12

dustinzick

Cause he's, he's jumping into the window. Yeah.

00:37:16

Alex

And it's so, it's so drawn out, like as a viewer.

00:37:16

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:37:20

Alex

that's comic golds and it made me like Alameen more because it's like this guy is so like klutzy it makes him more endearing and yet for boy he's having his you know hero worship of his dad kind of shattered a bit in that moment so i love how it's working in two different ways on both the viewer and on boy

00:37:39

dustinzick

you know It's interesting. i mean i Hearing you say that, I feel like you're probably right in Boi's perspective of it, but I feel like in that moment in my head, i'm like oh this is i mean I feel like you could argue this based on like at the end when Alameda and his two friends get beat up, but boy initially sees it as they're beating the other guys up.

00:38:02

dustinzick

like I was like, oh, boy's not seeing this happen like this at all. Boy's seeing him do a flawless dukes of hazard impression and get into the car.

00:38:10

Alex

so Right.

00:38:12

dustinzick

like This is one of those moments where his you know diamond glasses are filtering out the awkward and terribleness of this. And he's seeing this like ah perfect iteration of his dad, rose-colored glasses is what the term I was looking for.

00:38:29

dustinzick

it um And so he still has them on at that point.

00:38:30

kyle

Yeah.

00:38:33

dustinzick

Uh, but yeah, like either way, like I, I, I guess, I mean, what you're saying could work just as well. Um, but that was how I kind of interpreted it is like, ah okay, we're, we as the viewer now get to see how hapless Alameen is in a moment that very easily you can be like, Oh yeah.

00:38:42

Alex

Totally Yeah,

00:38:52

dustinzick

Like I can see how, you know, a seven year old, eight year old, nine year old kid could like Have a completely different perspective of this and his memory and think it was like the most baddest thing on the planet Two weeks less than two weeks.

00:39:07

Alex

so good

00:39:08

kyle

And it's it's interesting to think about this you know against Persepolis um in terms of the time that's handled. right like there's not there's not This is a very small window of time.

00:39:20

kyle

yeah And I kind of like that about the genre in general and how it it is a continuum, but it's one where it's one that like can only also be kind of understood in the moments.

00:39:21

dustinzick

Yeah

00:39:22

Alex

Right.

00:39:37

kyle

right like

00:39:37

dustinzick

and Yeah.

00:39:38

kyle

And we want to think that and just like our own lives, you want to think that like, there's moments that have these huge lasting impacts, but it's all this weird flowing and those moments, the ones we remember, but like, there's very rarely like light bulb moments in our development, I feel like. And, you know, even even in the scene where he runs after him and takes the jacket back and all sorts of stuff like that's the begin it's one of the beginnings of um you know the fall from grace and in his eyes that leads to that fight in the kitchen and um yeah to be able to show it's also a coming of age tale that it's a it's a coming of age show that I don't feel like I have a lot of perceptible so I could have a decent amount of resolution even though it starts off right again at the end with with a new adventure

00:40:08

Alex

Right.

00:40:28

kyle

But so much happens that you feel there's like almost like a sense of closure and assert in a certain way.

00:40:35

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:40:35

kyle

And, and I just don't feel that way in this one which which you know is I mean there's certainly yes there's there's a bit of closure sure but it's really more of like, I don't know what' what's going to happen to these these kids, these children, like what their next life is like.

00:40:50

kyle

It's a very uneasy feeling to go through this whole episode um of their lives and then just kind of be like, I guess it's just going to continue and he'll have to figure out everything on his own for him and the family and all sorts.

00:41:07

kyle

I don't know. It's just ah it's it's so interesting how different

00:41:07

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:41:07

Alex

Right. It's kind of the, yeah, no, that's a great comparison. And it's kind of the undercurrent of tragedy that's running throughout this movie for me is that there's this whole subplot about a boy not understanding what the word potential means and trying to define it. And like, that's obviously the implication. That's the, that's the fear hanging over this movie is that boy is going to turn out exactly like his dad. um And for me as a viewer, even though you know, their lives aren't any easier when the credits roll. All of these like really big problems for this little family are still facing them. um You know, I think boy, just having that awareness of who his dad is and letting himself kind of dismantle the pedestal and undo the hero worship that he's done in the first 10 years of his life, um you know, was enough for me as a viewer to be like, okay, you know,

00:42:07

Alex

boy at least has an understanding to maybe let himself move beyond what his his father's path was. um So I see it as a hopeful ending, but it's one that has a lot of tragedy. And I feel like it's a lot of tragedy about, I might be saying this wrong, but the Maori people and just kind of like this socioeconomic slice of life in New Zealand where They're dealing with immense poverty. They're dealing with, you know, um isolation and all of these kind of socioeconomic hardships where it probably is super hard to, you know, quote, make something of yourself in the way that we think of. um So, yeah, I don't really have a ah definitive answer there, but i I thought the movie was hopeful in terms of boys' developments, but while having a lot of, um you know, realistic

00:43:03

Alex

tragedy about the circumstances he's living in.

00:43:07

kyle

Yeah, which to me is like, that is the space that Taika Waititi can just knock out of the park.

00:43:07

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:43:14

kyle

Is that, is that, is that, yeah, the, just sitting with all of that and all of its richness, positive, negative, tragic, happy,

Conclusion of 'Boy'

00:43:25

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:43:25

kyle

bittersweet, it's it's it's really, yeah it's just, it's masterful.

00:43:29

kyle

And then you get an amazing like combination thriller haka at the end, which is also,

00:43:34

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

00:43:36

kyle

I thought that was yeah nice way to a nice way to end it, like a very takeaway teeny way to end it as well.

00:43:37

dustinzick

Well, there's.

00:43:41

dustinzick

Yeah, well, there's there's a lot of charm in movies like this that tell.

00:43:41

Alex

yeah

00:43:46

dustinzick

That that weighty story and and hit that kind of emotional note while still having. A good health like healthy sounds the right word, a good amount of humor, not an insignificant amount of humor like I would call this.

00:44:05

dustinzick

at some degree, like a comedy, like Wikipedia has it as a comedy drama.

00:44:05

Alex

Yeah. Sure.

00:44:11

dustinzick

I would maybe flip those around. Maybe not. I don't know. um But I feel like I would definitely tell people that this is like a comedy in some way, shape or form. It's not like there's just a couple of laughs in it.

00:44:23

dustinzick

Like, no, like they're straight up like bits that are kind of not, you know, sketch comedy played for laughs, but there's stuff in here that is literally just serves the purpose of making you laugh.

00:44:36

Alex

Right.

00:44:37

dustinzick

A non-example of that, because there is more purpose to it, but I did appreciate going back to what you said, Alex, about the the through line of Bowie not knowing what the word potential means.

00:44:47

dustinzick

Like I really did appreciate when he looks it up in the dictionary. And I forget what the exact ah definition is in the dictionary, but it basically references another word, because I feel like that's entirely relatable to anybody who looks up a word they don't know.

00:45:00

kyle

Yes. Yes.

00:45:01

dustinzick

And the dictionary just tells you that it's something else, another version of another word. ah I also really appreciated the ah the use of the his brother Rocky's sketch animation ah for some elements in here.

00:45:17

Alex

Yes, that was so good.

00:45:20

dustinzick

like and i'm curious I'd be really curious to know if that was a product of if if that originated as like a budgetary restriction in some way or or just working within the scope of budget for this, or if like, I guess being like, oh, did they want to show some version of those scenes a little more and they couldn't, so they just used that style of animation though I know so most if not all of those were more kind of fantastical elements. um But I appreciated that kind of whimsy that was in here and I feel like the first one happened within the first 10 minutes which to me kind of telegraphed a like ah level of whimsy and and

00:46:11

dustinzick

I'm trying to think of a better word for it. but That just a little lightheartedness more than maybe I was initially expecting, um which I probably should have expected knowing the director and writer and everything. But um yeah, like I think that and it It shouldn't surprise anyone that like knowing how closely related that humor and comedy and tragedy and sadness are all kind of connected, ah that a movie that really can like hit both of those notes of the humor and drama

00:46:49

dustinzick

really can can imbue you with that that greater level of like, wow, that really is as heavy and um emotionally intense, but um while still making you laugh out of the side of your mouth and out of the front of your mouth half of the time, it's going on to.

00:47:08

Alex

Totally. Yeah. And I don't think you can talk about the animation sequences and Rocky without talking about the emotional core behind all of that, which is super fucking tragic, which is that it's his way of processing his mom's death during childbirth to be like, Oh, I have superpowers. I caused mom's death. So I'm going to process, you know, my trauma through my creativity and my imagination and It's exactly as you're saying, Dustin, it's it's funny, it's whimsical. um But you know like we've been saying again and again, it's got that you know that strong emotional core that just lets it land on that you know a tragic level as well. um And I think you might be onto something with um the animation being potentially a budgetary restriction. I think this movie is a classic example of

00:48:01

Alex

you know restrictions being a boon for innovation and being a boon for art in that like, you know, being forced to work in these narrow narrower parameters than, you know, something like Thor Love and Thunder, which I was not a big fan of, um you know, makes makes me think that, you know, maybe Tycho works really well in this kind of register where he has less tools to play with and that kind of forces, you know, forces him to think about how to use those tools creatively.

00:48:34

dustinzick

yeah

00:48:35

kyle

Oh, yes. All right. I feel like we we worked those well. and um i'm i'm So yeah, eternal sunshine is by this mind. let's Let's get into it.

00:48:47

kyle

Let's get into it. And I don't even want to say anything. I just want to, Dustin, I want to hear your thoughts on it. i don't want I don't want to say anything.

00:48:54

dustinzick

ah

00:48:54

kyle

I don't want to hear from Alex yet. I'm just very

Initial Thoughts on 'Eternal Sunshine'

00:48:58

kyle

curious. about this that we've You've finally watched this movie that everyone's been telling you to watch. What, how, how, how to play for you?

00:49:02

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:49:06

kyle

How, what did, what did you think? What did you, what did you like? What did you not like the whole thing?

00:49:09

Alex

Well said.

00:49:09

dustinzick

Yeah, um so okay, so my my connection with this movie, you know, it's 20 years old now, came out in 2004.

00:49:09

kyle

Give me everything.

00:49:17

dustinzick

It's 2024.

00:49:17

kyle

Whoo. So old. We are so old.

00:49:20

dustinzick

So if that's gonna make you feel old, if that doesn't make you feel old, I do not know what can.

00:49:25

kyle

I went to a 30th anniversary tour of an album I like recently. That made me feel just a little older.

00:49:31

dustinzick

Oh yeah, yeah.

00:49:32

kyle

yeah dan

00:49:33

dustinzick

um So my only, actually no, that's not true. Okay, so my connection, like familiarity with Michael Gondry is, how do you say his name?

00:49:44

kyle

michelle

00:49:44

dustinzick

Michelle, Michelle Gondry. I'm not going to edit that out. Just let me mispronounce everyone's names. um ah With Gondry is ah I saw Be Kind Rewind when it came out.

00:49:55

kyle

Yeah,

00:50:01

kyle

continue.

00:50:01

dustinzick

That's with Jack Black and Most Def.

00:50:01

Alex

Nice.

00:50:04

dustinzick

And I remember liking it. I don't remember rewatching it, so I must not have liked it that much. I'd be open to revisiting it. And then I watched The Green Hornet when that came out in 2011.

00:50:16

dustinzick

Do you guys remember that was a movie that existed?

00:50:18

kyle

Oh yeah.

00:50:18

Alex

Absolutely.

00:50:19

dustinzick

um That's what I want to rewatch because I love Christoph Waltz. I could watch him read like the instructions to a ceiling fan, an installation manual. He's phenomenal. ah But beyond that, like I think I had a ah little mini poster of The Science of Sleep, which came out two years after Eternal Sunshine. I never saw The Science of Sleep.

00:50:44

dustinzick

i Probably no a dozen people that would say eternal sunshine is like in their top five movies of all time and it just never Never fell on my plate to watch which is wild having watched it and thinking of Mentally how I was in 2004 that was my

00:51:10

dustinzick

junior senior year of high school around that time and I'm not comparing these I don't think I think one aged much better than the other ah but Garden State came out I like loved Garden State I feel like I compartmentalize the Eternal Sunshine with Garden State and a lot of these other like existential art kind of movies that came out around that time. And it just I never I don't know. I think if I if I had to give you a reason, like if you put a gun to my head and said, like, why didn't you watch this movie? I'd say like

00:51:54

dustinzick

Kate Winslet's hair in all the trailers like all the different colors kind of was like I like this is just Just weird like I didn't find that attractive um I don't care about that now, but like that would have been my most like my biggest justification because I had no my only Concept of her work was titanic, which was fine I was a Jim Carrey fan and I was a dramatic Jim Carrey fan like like a love Truman show and other stuff he had done over the years that was dramatic. So it wasn't like, oh, the mask and dumb and dumber Jim Carrey is the only Jim Carrey I want. um So so i I don't really have a good reason why I never visited this. I thought it was great.

00:52:39

dustinzick

i I found it to be...

Narrative Structure and Themes in 'Eternal Sunshine'

00:52:44

dustinzick

I watched it today. And I'm kind of glad I did, even though like I was feeling kind of shitty.

00:52:50

dustinzick

I'm like, we've been putting this off for like five weeks and I'm watching the last movie today.

00:52:54

Alex

you.

00:52:55

dustinzick

ah But it kind of works out right to like not watch it five weeks ago and then have to recall for the podcast. um I found it a little bit ah disorienting, but I know that that was deliberate. like That kind of engrosses you in the story more. um it's heavy It was I don't want to say it was depressing because it felt real in a way.

00:53:20

dustinzick

um it

00:53:24

dustinzick

it felt like i appreciated ah At first, I didn't really care for like the real-world stuff with Tom Wilkinson as the doctor and Mark Ruffalo and Kirsten Stewart and that stuff and Elijah. like I was like, this like this whole like procedure stuff. But I actually appreciated the the fact that they were just like, yeah, this is something we can do.

00:53:47

dustinzick

It exists in this world that it's not like this super slick like oh watch the trailer like He sees a commercial on TV and it's like this sexy trailer of like this futuristic science thing It's like now it's like the shitty office in New York with like wood paneling like I I like that and i I will say without getting too much into my issues I Watched Pleasantville for the first time last night

00:54:15

kyle

Oh, awesome.

00:54:15

dustinzick

I enjoyed that, um but I could go on for an hour about, ah and and i to be clear, I did enjoy that movie, but I could go on for an hour and I went on for about 20 minutes last night with the friends I watched it with about like, what are the fucking rules of this movie?

00:54:16

Alex

Interesting.

00:54:33

dustinzick

ah Because there are many things in Pleasantville that just are like, wait, what? like That doesn't make sense. and But then they counter, they went back on that. and and i find it like i try not to be that person in a movie that's like oh wow this is work why is it that explained and this movie just told you just enough like it was so confident in like yeah this is the thing that people can do erase some ah memory and like That I bought and then as it went on like the drama with them at the house and stuff I kind of liked more and more I liked the and and I understand the purpose more and more of like why Elijah woods character had to be like the creeper that was like trying to get with her because that's what kind of triggered him to realize that he didn't want to lose his memory of her and everything um I really really did appreciate the

00:55:27

dustinzick

Uh, whatever you want to call it like foreshadowing like the opening sequence before they cut to the credit And then you realize at the end that you're actually watching the end of the movie Um, I thought that was kind of wonderful to to be able to see Right before you get to him waking up and after he lost all of his memories of clementine You get to see his memories of their first meeting in in montucket and you're like wait a minute

00:55:34

Alex

Yep.

00:55:57

dustinzick

I thought we had just seen their first meeting, and then you're realizing, oh, no, no, no, I'm seeing their meeting that's, their re-meeting that's happening after it. um, I think the other thing I i will say is like i I feel like i'm really glad I Watched this at this point in my life I mean, I could have watched it at any point in the last five years for this to count but like at a point in my life where i'm happily married to the love of my life like um If I were would have watched this in 2004 I probably would have liked it but for a different reason because I thought it was like

00:56:32

dustinzick

introspective and whatnot, but I don't think I would have related to it in a certain way that I do now. um I don't think it would have carried the same weight for me as it does now in terms of the beauty of kind of appreciating your partner's flaws and and how that's kind of a necessary component of a relationship.

00:56:54

dustinzick

um yeah and like ah ah Functionally, I really just enjoyed the the kind of disorienting take of of going through these, especially early on when he starts to realize, oh like they're getting rid of these memories and um he's like seeing himself and he's talking to the doctor and like ah the doctor's like, oh no, I'm actually part of your brain too. Like I'm part of your imagination too. You're just imagining me like that kind of stuff. Like I thought that was done in a really cool way. Like I appreciate how much of it was done.

00:57:30

dustinzick

Grounded in realism like it could have been very easy and and arguably appropriate for a movie about like he's Memories and whatnot for it to be much more fantastical but I really appreciated how realistic it was and and yeah, I I Not right now, but I want to rewatch this. I feel like this is something I can appreciate more on a rewatch even because right now, honestly, like I'm probably sitting at like.

00:58:01

dustinzick

four out of five, but I'm probably going to sleep on it because it feels like a movie that needs to maybe percolate a little more in my subconscious to like really hit home. um But yeah, um I really liked it. I can see why everybody speaks so highly of it. I feel like it aged phenomenally well with the exception of the use of cassette tapes.

00:58:25

dustinzick

um But everything else, I feel like it it did really well. And that's to say, like, I rewatched Garden State within the last year for the first time in probably like 13, 15 years. And that came out almost 20 years ago. And I enjoyed it.

00:58:43

dustinzick

But I felt like it was so much a product of its time um that I like was like, this isn't just doesn't hold the same weight or anything. And Eternal Sunshine, I feel like, is done in such a great way that it doesn't even visually look like a movie, like that the the cars and the streets and the people and their apparel. None of that feels like, oh, yeah, this is back in the early 2000s or the 90s or something.

00:59:09

dustinzick

um And maybe I'm talking out of my ass with that because I don't know exactly like how much fashion has changed and stuff But like none of it felt like it felt like it could have been made two years ago. So That's that's That's me

00:59:25

kyle

nice love it alex give me alex let me ask you this question how long in between viewings of this movie and the last time you saw it

00:59:27

Alex

Hell yeah.

00:59:30

Alex

Yeah.

00:59:35

Alex

So I think it's probably been around, I wanna say five to seven years is like the vague estimate I'm gonna throw out there. i I saw this movie probably a couple of years after it came out. I didn't see it in theaters, um but I saw it when I was around college age. And I saw it when I was first getting into like different types of movies and different types of cinema. And it was definitely, it's definitely a movie I consider part of like my pantheon of you know cinema awakening movies. It was like, oh, movies can do these types of cool things too. So I've long held it in really high esteem um because it was one of those formative movie watches for me when I was you know in my late teens, early 20s. I definitely saw it a couple of times around that time period. Probably, you know I think this may have been like the sixth or seventh time I've seen this movie.

01:00:33

Alex

um I probably saw it, you know, four times within a ah three year span in my late teens, early twenties.

01:00:38

dustinzick

Thank you.

01:00:40

Alex

Um, and then, you know, there was a big gap before this latest rewatch. And I was sharing this with you guys, uh, over text, but I think one of the biggest things that struck me on this rewatch was kind of how you were saying about the realistic parts of the memory erasing

Emotional and Romantic Resolutions in 'Eternal Sunshine'

01:00:58

Alex

scenes.

01:00:58

Alex

Dustin is how horrific those were.

01:01:01

dustinzick

Oh yeah.

01:01:01

Alex

Um, where you see Jim Carrey like watching himself, uh, you know, very clearly having out of body experiences. Um, there's all these dissonant noises playing. And I think Michelle Gondry who, um, I believe was a music video director, um, uses ambient sounds really well to like make things feel discordant and fucked up. Um, where the feeling those beginnings seems gave me is, um,

01:01:31

Alex

You know, during the times of my life when I've been under general anesthesia, there's kind of like a moment of panic when you're fading out of consciousness. It's like, fuck, I'm going to be major out of, be out of control. Dangerous things are going to be happening. And you, you know, you freak out just as you're going under, you know, it's usually as you're seeing like things happening in the operating room and.

01:01:55

Alex

I think they captured that like feeling of terror and helplessness of having a procedure being done to you um you know when you're immobile. I thought that was yeah that was something that really jumped out at me is just how anxiety inducing. like My heart was thump, thump, thumping during the first half hour in a way that I didn't remember. um Because I think in my in my memory, I tend to remember um you know, the kind of gauzy dream sequences that we get later in the movie when um Joel and Clementine are trying to like go further and further back to his memory. And, you know, it it feels very, yeah, very like, you know, there's a warmth to those scenes. um Whereas the earlier scenes of the procedure starting um have this clinical coldness and, you know, fear inducing aspect to them that really

01:02:52

Alex

I think heightens the romantic elements you get later in the movie. um And the other thing that jumped out to me in this rewatch is how how like nakedly romantic I thought the ending was, and I thought the third act was when um you know you're seeing this romance relationship in reverse. You have that framing device of the meat cue at the beginning, so there's that element of hope.

01:03:17

Alex

um And, you know, I was watching ah with with my wife and it was like very beautiful to me when they make that decision at the end to, um you know, we know this could end badly. We know, like, you know, we have these, these vices as people. We have these things that could make us potentially incompatible, but we're in love and it's worth it. So we're going to go for it. um I thought that was, yeah, deeply optimistic, deeply romantic and humanistic. And I, you know,

01:03:48

Alex

was very moved on this rewatch by how, you know, uplifting I found that ending even with the context of, well, this is probably not going to work. um I thought just the mutual decision that both of them make to be like, you know, well, let's give it another go, um you know, is kind of like human nature and how we pursue relationships in a nutshell. And I thought that was very, very poignant on this rewatch. um This is probably not in my top 10, but it might be in my top 25, and this this viewing definitely solidified that.

01:04:24

Alex

ah Yeah, I just adored this movie, can't wait to rewatch. I am not gonna let it be another five to seven years before before I do. What about you, Kyle?

01:04:33

kyle

yeah Yeah.

01:04:33

Alex

How was how was your experience?

01:04:36

kyle

Oh, it was amazing. It was it was it was incredible. i don't I don't remember the last time I actually watched it. It was probably, it's probably something like seven seven seven years, something like that, maybe a little bit more.

01:04:51

kyle

um It's definitely a movie that when it came out, yeah, I was blown away by um for so many reasons. That that that final scene though, uh well yeah where they where they have that i don't know beautiful resignation about what they are embarking on while the tape is playing in the background of ah of of joel's character just you know railing on on all the problems and i mean that that that is going on and they you know they they still want to go through that

01:05:25

kyle

me That that just like personally is a is the emotional cord that really, I don't know, hits me very, very, very hard to like, yeah, things aren't going to be great, but we're going to do it anyway. Because there are going to be some some really beautiful moments along the way.

01:05:45

kyle

and And we're taking a risk, you know, and ah and it it's got a lot of Nietzschean, eternal return, more fatigued stuff where it's just, you know, you want to live, you if you had to live your life over and over again in the exact same way, like you you want to live your life in a way where you're you're good with that happening. And that final scene feels a lot like that, like you're good with all that's going to come, the good and the bad, um which I think is super powerful. but Also, just the it's funny that your reaction to the hair, Dustin, was a little bit pulling you away because it just created that's something that like now is a problem for me. Or not really, because I'm happily married with a child. But like any girl with colored hair, I was like, no, that she must be interested.

01:06:33

kyle

um

01:06:33

dustinzick

and Yeah.

01:06:34

kyle

and uh so it did like the exact opposite for me and and and you know uh Natalie Portman's character in Garden State like this is the time of of the manic pixie dream girl um this it's like this is the beginning of of really that coin term and this this yeah this movie really does that um and it's

01:06:51

dustinzick

can i can i point something up but and just Interestingly, um just reading the Wikipedia about this, it talks about how a lot of um critics pointed out that her character actually criticizes the idea of like a manic pixie dream girl with her quote.

01:07:10

dustinzick

um where she I'll just read it really quick where she tells Joel, towards the end, ah when they're reliving a ah memory in Barnes and Noble, and too many guys think I'm a concept or I complete them, I'm going to make them alive, but I'm just a fucked up girl who's looking for my own peace of mind, don't assign me yours.

01:07:29

dustinzick

um And this that it's believed that that, or maybe not believed, i that Manic Pixie Dream Girl term came to fruition like within a year or two after this, ah specifically in regards to Kirsten Stewart's character in Elizabethtown with Orlando Bloom.

01:07:48

kyle

Just don't, oh, yeah, yeah, there we go yeah, You're good.

01:07:50

dustinzick

Kristin Dunst, yes. Yeah, yeah. Oops. Not going to edit that one out either.

01:07:55

Alex

Ha ha ha.

01:07:56

dustinzick

Kristin Dunst character though. So yeah, like no, like I think.

01:08:02

dustinzick

But she and at the same time, she still kind of is. like I think that's part of like what makes this so compelling, is that they're both deeply flawed people. ah We see it more, I feel like, of her character than his. of like the flaws as he sees them. and We hear him describing them more vividly. Her deepest critiques of him are really that he's boring and has nothing going for him. But like I think that that makes that resolution at the end like after they've both heard each other railing on each other.

01:08:44

dustinzick

And they're still like, well, I don't feel that way right now. I wouldn't say that now. And they're still resigned to like move forward. I like that's what really hit me, Alex. It's just that like finding that to be not not to say that like I have that same adversity with my life.

01:08:54

Alex

Right.

01:09:00

dustinzick

Like I don't. But like I feel like it It resonates with me more of like understanding that loving someone means loving their flaws and embracing the whole of their person, um even what you think you might not like or or things like that, and that it can be worth it if you want it to be kind of a thing.

01:09:28

kyle

Yeah, and the device of this wood panel doctor's office where they give you light brain damage um to to kill your memories and how it speaks to like relationships and what they were able to, all the characters, all the writing, and this definitely introduced me to Charlie Kaufman in a way that I kind of chased for a while in in in his in his his work.

01:09:44

dustinzick

Mm-hmm.

01:09:45

Alex

Mm.

01:09:58

kyle

but the the idea of wanting to erase someone from your life after a very bad breakup. um And also kind of no matter what you do, that not really being possible in many ways, like the kind of the contours are always there and how they get to that with Howard um and Mary's character and how like there, it's that's, yeah.

01:10:11

dustinzick

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:10:21

Alex

I love that subplot. And I love the texture that gives to the movie. It gives it it it under it undercuts the entire premise of the memory erasing.

01:10:31

kyle

yes

01:10:31

Alex

you know In addition to the whole everything that we experienced with Joel and Clementine, we see what a fool's errand it is with like the gravitational pull that Mary has towards um the Tom Wilkinson character whose name I'm blanking on.

01:10:35

kyle

Yes.

01:10:46

dustinzick

Howard.

01:10:46

kyle

Howard.

01:10:47

Alex

Howard.

01:10:48

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:10:49

kyle

Yeah.

01:10:49

Alex

Yeah.

01:10:49

kyle

and And you know, like, the, yeah, the inability to do that, how you try to get rid of all the artifacts that, that, ah that, ah you know, with, a with the relationship, um,

01:11:00

kyle

that Even even like this does little um that that little scene where he's he's explaining like how Clementine didn't even really know him. She was with some other guy.

01:11:12

kyle

um and And the friend has this piece of paper that he's been given. And it's like it's like this it's this thing.

01:11:18

dustinzick

Mm-hmm.

01:11:22

kyle

I saw that you know that that i saw like when you're going through, when not even you, when someone you know is going through a breakup, and or has just gone through it or is dealing with the after effects whatever it is and you're trying to do anything you can to like not talk about it and not bring it up and all this stuff but like it just keeps finding its way in and and eventually he's just like no i'm giving him this fucking piece of paper um that that to me i thought was like a very good and and how Just a very good moment of like, you don't exist it's being being a friend during a breakup is like can be very, you don't exactly know how to act or move forward sometimes.

01:11:57

Alex

Right.

01:11:58

dustinzick

Mmhmm.

01:11:58

kyle

And and and how every single these every single one of these moments is like infinitely complicated ethically um with regard to how what's what's right, whose wishes are supposed to be respected, what role are you're supposed to play, picking sides, all this stuff.

01:12:14

kyle

um Yeah, and just, wanting to, yeah, once it actually really starts to get taken from you, like wanting to hold on to it, and the the violent, visit that not violent, but like the reactions you have when someone, you know, it's not even in real life, it's usually not someone copying all your words and actions and stepping into to have a relationship with this person that you have um have been with for a long time, but like that, the use of of him literally taking the artifacts and the words from their past sort of heightens to an incredible degree that feeling of like someone is stealing my relationship um type of stuff that can come with a breakup.

01:12:58

Alex

Right.

01:13:00

kyle

Like very rarely have I come across a movie where the device and the and enhances all these moments in this sort of side doorway that, yeah.

01:13:12

dustinzick

you guys... Sorry.

01:13:15

kyle

know you

01:13:15

dustinzick

yeah I'm curious it if you guys interpreted it the same way. What um Patrick, Elijah Wood's character, was doing by taking Joel's experiences with Clementine the good parts and using those to like kick a relationship with her.

01:13:32

dustinzick

like I kind of interpreted it as if he had not done that. She would have been able to move on okay and wouldn't have gone to Montauk and met up with, like, because, like, when she, when they start the procedure on Joel and she calls Patrick and is like, I can't, nothing makes sense or whatever,

01:13:56

dustinzick

I kind of saw that as like, oh, like he's, you know, nothing that the the existential soul of your memories can't be fully erased, even though if you forgot these things. um And by him, but by Elijah Wood kind of reenacting all these things that she experienced it with Jim Carrey. She's like, this is familiar. This is right.

01:14:21

dustinzick

But then like when they go up there and they're laying on the ice and he literally says Jim Carrey's words verbatim and she sits up immediately and it's like I need to go home. It's like she knows deep down and can't recognize it that this is wrong. Like everything around this is right, except for something is wrong and isn't able to identify it as being Joel. And I feel like that That logic makes sense when you think of Mary and Howard because Howard or or Mary had the procedure done herself to forget her affair with Howard and or Howard's so a affair with her, but. She still was there in his proximity and still kind of caught his aura and fell for his aura. If she wasn't working there and she moved to, you know.

01:15:14

dustinzick

Toma she would have been like it wouldn't ah have flared up again or become a thing again So i I thought that was just kind of like that's how I interpreted it I'm curious if you guys kind of saw it that same way or not like that's I don't think a Primary point of the movie at all like I think that again to my point earlier about like the you know this technology exists It's just a thing like it's not really but The story of the movie doesn't need that line of thought to be accurate or be true for it to work. But for me, it kind of just gives it more like rationale of like why this is happening, why she's rejecting Patrick and can't figure out why kind of a thing.

01:16:02

kyle

i I think for me, um that ah i think i think for me those that that moment and like what it's teasing out there with um you know going to such extreme that he's using the same words, but also the opening scene where it's actually the end, but it's beginning, it's their total remeeting after they have been or both erased.

01:16:06

dustinzick

No, you're wrong. No, I'm kidding.

01:16:28

kyle

um And and and you know like to the point that he doesn't even remember Huckleberry Hound, because that's been erased from his memory in this process type of thing. And yet, um

01:16:41

kyle

there is a there's it's it's not it's not quite fate.

01:16:42

dustinzick

Mm

01:16:46

kyle

But it is sort of ah for me, it just really it it hits on this idea that we do have these attractions, existential attractions.

01:16:46

dustinzick

hmm.

01:16:57

kyle

um that are hard to deny

01:17:01

dustinzick

Mm hmm.

01:17:01

kyle

and there's something about that that is like very uniquely human whateverever you want you know like type of thing but there's there's just these attractions that are hard to deny like for example and and i think why she

01:17:16

kyle

To me, some of the moments, like I do think they use what you're like what you're saying, right? like hims Him saying verbatim those words is really jolting her and making her feel crazy, even though she is kind of prone to that level of feeling in general, you know what I mean?

01:17:29

kyle

Because it happens in their own relationship where Joel multiple times says something that like sets her off because it's really hitting um her. This is about the baby.

01:17:38

Alex

Right.

01:17:38

kyle

This is about you know constantly talking, isn't necessarily communicating. um and And that we have these we have these predilections that are very difficult to to actually remove from our personality.

01:17:53

kyle

And it's one of the reasons why despite all their memories being erased of one another, they can still kind of get back together. And the the Mary Howard thing is interesting because like you said, maybe if she goes somewhere else and yada, yada, yada, then she doesn't fall back in and have another affair with Howard and the whole thing.

01:18:04

dustinzick

no, no

01:18:09

kyle

But I kind of feels like wherever Mary goes, she's going to find some older gentleman who she is impressed by both for their, their personality and their warmth and their kindness, but also their, you know, their, their brain and their ability to, you know, to yeah to just be a very impressive individual.

01:18:29

kyle

um And she's always, you know, she'll have the Mark Ruffalo's around, but like, you know, that's kind of what she's going to go after more. And Joel, you know, why do I fall in love with every woman who shows me the slightest bit of attention and and Clementine, you know, kind of um george being attracted to these boring guys in a lot of ways, because they are a counterbalance to her.

01:18:40

dustinzick

One more.

01:18:50

kyle

And um so I guess I interpreted it as as as just like more of a that That scene, I definitely agree, it's like how it's being used in the film, but what it just gives to me is more, we have these kind of grooves and there's a lot of there's a lot of agency in the grooves and there's a lot of like, you are reliving and doing the same things over and over again until, and like it's finding the right little pathway in the groove to to be comfortable and accept the flaws and the whole thing.

01:19:05

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:19:19

kyle

But yeah, that's that's kind of that's kind of what I took from that.

01:19:21

dustinzick

but

01:19:24

Alex

Yeah, I think I'm right there with you, Kyle, on all that. I think it's about the gravitational pull of our attraction and who we're attracted to, and there being no real way to erase that part of our memories or our personality. I think it definitely, to both of your points, the Patrick character is being used as a narrative catalyst, as a way to jolt Clem into getting on the train when she does.

01:19:53

Alex

I think she would have ended up there the same way that Joel did because Joel did not have that similar, you know, catalyst acting on him. He ended up at the the train station even after this very traumatic kind of faulty memory wiping procedure that didn't quite work.

01:20:10

Alex

Um, so they had their very different stressors working on them.

01:20:10

dustinzick

Mmhmm.

01:20:14

Alex

Um, and they both ended up there. So I think, you know, I think Joel being attracted to, you know, someone like Clementine would have happened regardless and vice versa. And with Mary and Howard, um yeah, totally agree. If she had, you know, left and discussed, moved all the way across the country, um she would have still found that gravitational pull towards men like Howard, towards those, you know, intellectually commanding, yet compassionate authority figures who, you know, she could kind of daydream about

01:20:52

Alex

Um, but it is really interesting how it's used in the movie. Um, and I think, um, like, uh, the acting level, I think Elijah Wood makes a great minor antagonist.

01:21:03

Alex

And I think this was kind of a fun part of his filmography where he, he did this.

01:21:03

kyle

of Yeah.

01:21:07

Alex

And this role reminds me of, um, his character in Sin City, who was also a total fucking creep, but in a different way.

01:21:14

dustinzick

He had a much darker way.

01:21:15

Alex

Um, let's, let's talk away. um He also was in like a horror movie called Maniac, which is even Way even darker than Sin City.

01:21:21

dustinzick

Oh yeah, also even darker.

01:21:26

Alex

So I think I think he realized like at this point. Yeah, let's let's ditch Frodo Let's let's go with the creepy guys and it worked to work that well for him

01:21:32

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:21:34

kyle

Yeah. And, and just like more on like the device that I just found amazing is the, the ability to be going through and and simultaneously acting out the memories and then be able to reflect on them with the character in the moment.

01:21:50

kyle

You know what I mean?

01:21:51

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

01:21:51

kyle

Like Dustin, Dustin, you're talking about that manic pixie, pixie dream girl line where she says it, and then they're immediately able to like just be be there in their relationship.

01:22:02

kyle

And Jules, I think one of the Jules response, the Jules response to that line is like, I still thought you're gonna save my life. You know what I mean? Even after you said that, she's like, I know, I know you did.

01:22:08

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:11

kyle

And that kind of like that resignation, but also like beautiful resignation, right? It's like, it really, yeah, to me, it it was a I hadn't really gone through many relationships or breakups when when this had you know movie came about, and I and i have in 20 years. But but yeah, that like it really it really hit home in all those ways just about how what a relationship can do to you and break you down and make you love and hate another person at a time and be vindictive.

01:22:42

Alex

Mm hmm.

01:22:47

kyle

But, you know, I mean, every, every single emotion all at once. um And just, you know, when they're, when they're going through those final moments of the first time they met and she's like, what do we do?

01:22:59

kyle

And she's like, just enjoy it. You know what I mean? And ah the ah just like how it really, I'll put it to you this way. It just gets those tiny little moments that you that you latch onto, you know what I mean? in a In a personal narrative of love, like when she takes the chicken in their in their initial meat. um And to me, this is also just, there's the the two movies that I think of when it comes to interesting, enriching portrayals of the mind.

01:23:29

kyle

that are wildly creative and informative and entertaining. For me, it is the inside out world and this movie.

01:23:36

dustinzick

Mm hmm.

01:23:37

kyle

like those Those two movies, and now there's two inside outs, but those the way that they handle the mind and how it works and the rules and non-rules that exist within it and

01:23:37

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:23:50

kyle

It's like, ah man, it's just so fascinating to watch and entertain. And i I do think, Dustin, when you watch this movie again, whenever that is, you will pick up on a lot more just little subtleties that are thrown in that I think really, yeah I don't know, just just go the extra mile and make just take this movie to the next level for me.

01:24:13

kyle

Because because there's so many little things um that that I just keep seeing when I when i see this movie.

01:24:13

Alex

Yeah.

01:24:22

kyle

Yeah, and it was it was a nice departure from Titanic for for Kate Winslet and and you know me and that. and that like That was who she was entirely. and

01:24:31

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:24:31

kyle

man yeah and the devastating nature of that okay at the end that's like yeah it's tragic and it's super bittersweet it's super happy it's super yeah um such a such a great portrayal of just the utter complication and complete i don't know whatever like need almost heisenberg uncertainty principle-esque nature of a relationship

01:24:57

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:24:57

kyle

You know what I mean? Like, where you just, you can't, every time you try to, you know?

01:25:01

dustinzick

Just the other stupidity of love is really what it is.

01:25:04

kyle

Mm-hmm.

01:25:06

dustinzick

Like, it's the dumbest, best thing on the planet.

01:25:09

kyle

Yeah.

01:25:10

dustinzick

And there's really no...

01:25:10

Alex

Yeah.

01:25:13

dustinzick

It exists on both ends of that spectrum, and and that's what makes it what it is, which sucks, but also works, and yeah, yeah.

01:25:21

kyle

This is amazing, yeah. is yeah, and and this this, I don't know about you guys, this movie, this movie for me also took me to a stratospheric level of Jim Carrey appreciation.

01:25:33

dustinzick

Mm.

01:25:33

kyle

like And so when we were texting and you you guys said you hadn't seen Man in the Moon, neither of you have seen Man in the Moon, right?

01:25:41

Alex

That's correct for me.

01:25:41

dustinzick

Uh, well, man on the moon I've seen parts of, but you said Jim and Andy.

01:25:44

kyle

Okay. ah yeah Jim and Andy is, is is it's a documentary ah that that with a lot of Jim Carrey, yeah.

01:25:51

dustinzick

Yeah, I've only seen.

01:25:52

kyle

with

01:25:52

dustinzick

Yeah, I haven't. I mean, and I need to watch man on the moon from start to finish. I don't think I've seen parts of it in 15 years.

01:25:56

kyle

Yeah,

01:25:59

kyle

yeah for ah for a Jim Carrey dramatic piece, but also one that's like very Jim Carrey to watch that and then eventually watch Jim and Andy. it's that's yeah He's incredible.

01:26:10

kyle

I fucking love Jim Carrey, man.

01:26:10

Alex

Yeah. I'm excited to do that.

01:26:12

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:26:13

Alex

And I do, maybe we can end on like the Jim Carrey-ness of his performance in this movie. I loved how the like traditionally manic Jim Carrey came out the deeper you got into the recesses of the memory and how it was almost like this, you know, pure like Freudian id of, you know, the kind of mild mannered, mealy

01:26:29

dustinzick

Yeah.

Jim Carrey's Character Analysis

01:26:38

Alex

-mouthed

01:26:38

Alex

um you know, character he plays for much of the movie, like you see, you know, this manic force that he has within him that Clementine is surely attracted to. And I, I think it's just great when he gets to have those moments, like when he's, you know, they're fake smothering each other. And it's like, you know, it's period 90s, Jim Carrey, it's great stuff.

01:26:59

dustinzick

Mm hmm.

01:27:00

kyle

Yeah. Well, I'm really

Completion of Film-Viewing Exercise and Farewell

01:27:03

kyle

glad. I'm really glad that, uh, that, that this exercise has, has, has gotten that one off your, off your list. us and That's, that's fun.

01:27:09

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, so am i well, um we'll leave our listeners in suspense for our next episode if they can't see what it is, because I want to hash it out with you guys.

01:27:11

kyle

Yeah.

01:27:11

Alex

name of the game baby

01:27:21

dustinzick

So I guess we'll say goodbye. Thank you for listening.