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00:00:00

00:00:01

Lesser Known Heroes of the 90s

S1 E5 · Triple Take Cinema

31 Plays4 months ago

Dustin tackles three “super” hero movies from the 90s that somewhat missed the mark:

The Phantom (1996) — 05:03
The Shadow (1994) — 27:03
Darkman (1990) — 49:01

Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.

We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.

There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.

Transcript

Introduction to Triple Take Cinema

00:00:02

dustinzick

All right, welcome again to Triple Take Cinema. I'm one of your hosts, Dustin, along with Kyle and Alex. And this week we're talking about three movies from the 90s about superheroes that are detectives and are kind of noir. And Alex's video feed just cut out again, but that's okay, we're just going to run with it. The three movies we're talking about this week are St. Rami's the shadow no he didn't do the shadow it's the music cut out or whatever we're just running with this shit we're rolling we'll do it live as bill O'Reilly famously said uh sam rammy's dark man some other dudes the shadow with alec baldwin and billy

00:00:34

kyle

We're rolling.

00:00:45

kyle

Windsor, something Windsor. somethingth windsor

Nostalgia and Memories of 90s Superhero Noir

00:00:47

dustinzick

Something Windsor, Simon Windsor, and The Phantom with Billy Zane, who you might know from Titanic or Tales from the Crips, Demon Knight are the two things I think of with Billy Zane, which are kind of random.

00:00:48

Alex

i'm in Simon, Simon Winston.

00:01:03

dustinzick

So I picked these movies because I was familiar with them all. I believe as a child, I had seen The Phantom. I've seen parts of The Shadow and parts of Darkman, but I just was kind of like, these movies all fit in kind of a weird clumping, and originally I'd also added Dick Tracy to the mix. We decided to cut that out for a future episode, but I feel like it would kind of fit thematically here as well. Just like kind of weird one-off adaptations of existing, well, I guess Darkman's only like is an original character, but The Shadow,

00:01:38

dustinzick

And the Phantom were existing comic book characters or comic strip characters. And so those were the the three movies that we tackled. had ah ah So as I noted, I'd seen the Phantom, I believe in its entirety when I was a kid, parts of the Shadow and parts of Darkman, but neither of those in their entirety. Kyle, what about you? Had you had any familiarity with any of these movies prior to tackling them for this episode?

00:02:07

kyle

I had familiarity with the Phantom and the Shadow, but only only familiarity, not intimacy, if you will. Hadn't seen him. And Dark Man, i did not I had not seen or heard of at all before we before you suggested this trio.

00:02:23

kyle

So yeah, now I will say I have listened to a healthy, healthy tranche of of shadow actual radio broadcasts driving driving cross country with ah my with my father.

00:02:37

dustinzick

Yep.

00:02:38

kyle

Picked him up with a good old Cracker Barrel. I don't know if you guys know about that, but back in the day when you go to Cracker Barrel, you get yourself a chicken fried steak. and you go and you look at all these expensive Coca-Cola memorabilia that you can buy. We didn't do any of that. We went to the cassette tape rack and we picked up the Green Hornet and Fibber McGee and Molly and the Bickersons, which is maybe the most offensive radio broadcast ever put on radio.

00:03:02

kyle

and, uh, and the shadow, uh, was, was kind of the main one. I think by the end of it, I had like 18 cassette tapes of shadow episodes that we would, we would watch much to my sister's chagrin, but salivie. Uh, so yeah, that's my, uh, that's, that's how I'm coming in on this.

Analyzing 'The Phantom'

00:03:19

dustinzick

How about you, Alex?

00:03:21

Alex

Yeah, so I had seen Darkman when I was on a Sam Raimi kick probably around 10 years ago. I saw the three evil deads and I figured I'd i'd see Darkman really dug it at the time. I think I dug it more on this rewatch as we'll get into. The Phantom I was familiar with because I remember i seeing the poster for it at our local video rental place in my hometown.

00:03:49

dustinzick

There's something kind of like that sticks with you about Billy Zane and that giant like weird purple onesie I feel like because I

00:03:57

Alex

Oh, it's it's a terrible costume. I feel like he's gonna be in a Pepto-Bismol ad or something.

00:04:02

dustinzick

It's so bad. and i think it's even like I remember seeing like the cover on VHS at our local video store for that all the time. and I feel like i feel like i would have it would have been better if it had just been like plain purple. But the fact that they had like weird kind of patterns on it and stuff made it feel not of the time that it was from.

00:04:26

dustinzick

But that's getting off topic right now. But I i as well remember that like iconography of seeing that it sticks out more than these other two, I feel like on the video shelf for sure.

00:04:33

Alex

Right.

00:04:36

kyle

Oh yeah, absolutely.

00:04:38

Alex

Yeah. And the shadow I was aware of, but never sought out and just knew its reputation as kind of a middling dud, similar to the Phantom, is kind of where I placed them in, you know, my movie knowledge is, yeah, these were these were misfires, but more interesting misfires than I would have guessed, as I'm sure we'll get into.

00:04:59

dustinzick

Yeah, so I'd like to start with I'm going to do these in in order from my least favorite to my most favorite, which is not quite the order I watched them in. But I did watch the Phantom first, and that was my least favorite of this bunch. And I feel like.

00:05:17

dustinzick

I feel like for me, the reason the Phantom fell flat was it just was a bit of a snooze fest. Like it was very competently done and well acted, I felt like, and looks good. But it's just a bit of a bore. Like I just don't feel like there's much going on here. And it's a lot of talk and a lot of like standing and like you know, chesting up to the camera but like not much else to it. do feel like Treat Williams as the villain was having a blast and doing his best to like choose soonry scenery and I in particular really kind of enjoyed that scene earlier like pretty early on. I feel like I think it's the first time you meet him

00:06:02

dustinzick

where he has the scientist come in, I think as a scientist, that he wants him to look at something under a microscope. And he's got this elaborate microscope rigged up so that when the guy looks at it, it'll stab him in both of his eyes, which I just appreciate the pure diabolical insanity of like going through the time to have somebody designed a microscope that can do that for conceivably a one off use in a very specific circumstance.

00:06:30

dustinzick

Uh, but that to me was probably the most redeeming part of like watching treat williams kind of enjoy being the villain Uh, but I feel like billy zane was a bit of a bore and the phantom as a character is just a bit of a snooze factor for me What do you guys think?

00:06:46

Alex

yeah i totally agree i think i think uh the phantom is a cardboard cutout of a cardboard cutout there's just nothing there in terms of What is his interiority? I have no fucking idea. I just know he's a dude in a purple suit who inherited this mantle from his father and is kind of noble and kind of charming. I actually really liked Billy Zane as the Phantom when we got to see him in New York with his suit off and he was actually emoting like a human being. I thought he did a good job of being kind of the

00:07:22

Alex

the debonair playboy side note i also thought it was funny that both the phantom and the shadow pull kind of a similar narrative trick where we start out in this exotic location and then there's a point where it's like we're gonna go to the true cd and the underbelly and it's fucking new york city and yeah i thought the shadow

00:07:34

dustinzick

Thank you.

00:07:41

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:07:45

Alex

or the Phantom, rather, got better when we got to New York. And I thought Billy Zane was more compelling as a character. But yeah, there there wasn't a lot there for me to grab onto. Xander Drax, which is Treat Williams' character's name, i did give me a lot of enjoyment. And I really, I had a smile on my face whenever he was on screen.

00:08:08

dustinzick

Yeah, rest in peace. He passed away a few years ago. I always i always think of him from the TV show Everwood and from Deep Rising, which was like a horror action film, like a B movie from the mid 90s that we had on VHS. And I wore the hell out of that tape because I watched it all the time.

00:08:30

dustinzick

Also in this was Catherine Zetta Jones, which I had completely forgotten that she was in this.

00:08:33

kyle

Oh yeah. Woo.

00:08:36

dustinzick

So it was kind of fun seeing her, but she didn't really have much to work with. Before I just drop other random things that I remember about this, because I watched this like four weeks ago now.

00:08:50

dustinzick

Kyle, what did you think of the Phantom?

00:08:53

kyle

Oh, the Phantom was my most enjoyable watch of the three.

00:08:58

Alex

That is fascinating.

00:09:00

dustinzick

I'm going to boot you out of this podcast room right now because that is the shittiest hot take I've ever heard.

00:09:00

Alex

With love.

00:09:03

kyle

Mm hmm. I know. I know.

00:09:07

dustinzick

a

00:09:08

kyle

Well, I, well, I, I, and I really, I mean, you guys have said that the reasons why I enjoyed it.

00:09:09

Alex

Explain yourself sir, explain yourself.

00:09:10

dustinzick

Yeah, justify this. Justify this immediately.

00:09:17

kyle

I thought I thought that the Xander the villain Xander was was great. And you know, in terms of I

00:09:29

dustinzick

I would probably say of these three movies that Xander like Treat Williams was the best villain. I would I will give this that a hundred percent over.

00:09:35

kyle

Yes.

00:09:37

Alex

I would totally agree with that.

00:09:38

kyle

Okay, see, well, there okay, so there's my there's my there's my hook, there's my way in, is I appreciated watching watching him work. um um i I find Billy Zane to be hilarious.

00:09:51

kyle

just just as an and just in the Just, yes, first of all, his name sounds fake.

00:09:52

dustinzick

yeah Like the idea of Billie Zane?

00:09:56

dustinzick

Yeah, it does.

00:09:57

kyle

Uh, probably is, but like it just, be anytime you're like, Oh, Billy Zanes in this movie, I'm like, well, that's interesting.

00:09:58

dustinzick

It does, yeah.

00:10:02

dustinzick

Yeah, yep.

00:10:03

kyle

I'm interested in watching that.

00:10:04

dustinzick

Yeah, there's...

00:10:04

kyle

Uh, and a lot of that, a lot of that comes from, you know, from Titanic. cause Oh yeah, that's correct.

00:10:09

dustinzick

Titanic. and He was also on Zoolander as himself, now that I'm recalling that, too.

00:10:09

Alex

and Yeah.

00:10:13

dustinzick

That's... Yeah, yeah.

00:10:15

kyle

That was a good turn. But that, that, that, you know, him, him being himself in Zoolander sums up exactly my feelings about Billy Zane.

00:10:21

dustinzick

Yeah, no, for sure.

00:10:22

kyle

Do you know what I mean?

00:10:22

dustinzick

I feel like, yeah, oh, for sure.

00:10:23

kyle

Yeah.

00:10:24

dustinzick

He feels like a, I don't want to say a parody of a person, but it's like difficult to see him as a real person, which seems like a really cruel thing to say about someone, but...

00:10:34

kyle

Yes, which I think, it's all right, he's he's got money. which like i i you know i i guy I kind of liked the non, I guess we we'll get into it the other movie, so I don't want to just like give it all away, but I i do actually in the world of in the world of Marvel suits, you know having just gotten out of like Deadpool and Wolverine and enjoyed that and all those things.

00:10:58

kyle

But like, you see the suits there. And then you see this suit. And this suit is kind of like, oh, he actually had to like be in shape to wear this thing. Like they didn't really, they didn't really get all get all effects on it.

00:11:09

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:11:10

kyle

And I and I kind of liked, i I liked how that was almost muted.

00:11:11

Alex

Now that's true.

00:11:14

kyle

Like it was really a dude in a leotard. It wasn't like, you know, uh it wasn't really it didn't feel like a superhero I felt like a dude in leotard and yeah you know just just just the tone of his character I liked more than a lot of the other uh protagonists that we dealt with and it never other than other than zander for me it never got to

00:11:19

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:11:41

kyle

Well, I'll just get into a little bit, but like the tone of the other two movies is something, it's a tone of a movie type that I have a hard time staying with.

00:11:53

dustinzick

Mmhmm.

00:11:54

kyle

And I know and i know that i know that I don't necessarily disagree that with your with your take on it being kind of snoozy, but also it was well well made in a certain sense.

00:12:10

dustinzick

Oh, yeah, for sure.

00:12:10

kyle

Yeah.

00:12:10

dustinzick

i feel like i mean and i i would i i say that I agree with that in the perspective that I don't feel like Shadow and and Dark Man were poorly made necessarily, but I feel like this movie like had a very like

00:12:23

kyle

Correct. Well.

00:12:28

dustinzick

It did feel very vintage in its presentation, like of kind of like 1930s, 1940s Hollywood kind of like it it. It almost felt to me in a way that like it could have been a movie that was made in 1940 or 1945 or something like that.

00:12:48

dustinzick

But like in a in a grand old style kind of Hollywood, it feels very what's

00:12:49

kyle

Yeah.

00:12:52

Alex

Right.

00:12:58

Alex

it's on the It's on the tip of your tongue. What I'm thinking is it is Indiana Jones with the serial numbers filed off.

00:13:05

dustinzick

yeah Yeah, yeah.

00:13:05

Alex

and And that's where I think it's strongest is it has some really solid set pieces when they're crossing the rope bridge with trucks.

00:13:11

dustinzick

Aha.

00:13:16

Alex

Like, is it a knockoff of sorcerer? Probably. But is it a pretty cool set piece? Definitely.

00:13:23

kyle

No idea how that truck stayed on, by the way.

00:13:23

Alex

and

00:13:25

kyle

No idea. The physicists of that were great.

00:13:26

Alex

No.

00:13:26

dustinzick

Aha.

00:13:28

Alex

And then, you know, the horseback chase with his dog companion and the fact that his dog friend and his horse have like a little rapport going on, liked that. But yeah, when this was leaning into its roots as kind of a 30s, 40s serial adventure story rather than, you know,

00:13:49

Alex

kind of the film noir elements, I think it was in the movie's favor. I think it was strong when it was doing those set piece, you know, dog fighting in a plane, and horseback chase, i trucks on the rope bridge, all that was good shit.

00:13:54

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:14:02

kyle

and i And I do like, and there's kind of like a, there's a exchange that to me kind of sums up. And and this is also like in stark contrast to to anything that would happen in the other two movies where she's like, oh, your dog's a wolf. And he doesn't even really respond. She's just kind of like, you know, like he gives like a Billy Zane look in the Phantom costume and it's just kind of very matter of fact. But it it just, yeah. So for me, the tone of it made it,

00:14:31

kyle

I don't know, it just made it made it something that appealed to me as a watch more. and And yeah, I mean, I agree.

00:14:37

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:14:38

kyle

I think the suit's a little silly, but I also just like, I don't know, I just appreciated watching it go out in front of me. And it didn't really do anything other than, you know, and the v the villain the villain for me was like kind of, it was a nice juxtaposition to all the other characters.

00:14:54

kyle

And yeah, and I kind of felt like, in the shadow and in Darkman.

00:15:03

dustinzick

Dark man.

00:15:05

kyle

there's there's no There is no chill. There's no chill across characters.

00:15:08

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:15:12

kyle

There's no one who's, I don't know, who's who's kind of like a grounding thing. And honestly, that's probably why that's probably why a lot of people enjoy it in that way.

00:15:21

kyle

And I'm sure we'll get into those those aspects. but But yeah, yeah, that's that's my general take. i enjoy I enjoyed it the most. I also think that there was no way I was gonna, well, we can get into that as well, but there was no way I was gonna enjoy the Phantom after it, like literally from the moment it started, I was like, this is not, this is, that's what I mean.

00:15:38

dustinzick

You mean the shadow you mean?

00:15:41

kyle

Yeah, there's no way I was gonna watch, there's no way I was gonna watch The Shadow with my history with the radio show and its power of nostalgia over me with like, and what's also kind of funny to me is that my dad and I listened to these tapes endlessly and this movie came out and we were both like, huh,

00:15:41

dustinzick

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:55

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:15:56

kyle

All right, let's watch, let's watch some baseball.

00:15:56

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:15:56

Alex

right Right.

00:15:57

kyle

Like and we never even, it was one of those, it's one of those weird things where my dad was just like, I don't need this on visual. I've, I grew up, on my dad's 83. So like he he grew up listening to the radio. And so it's not like a thing that he learned about.

00:16:09

kyle

This is a thing he lived. And so.

00:16:11

Alex

But it didn't, it didn't cross his mind or your mind to be like, Oh, let's check that out. We listened to it all the time.

00:16:16

kyle

yeah we love The movie came out and we were like, do you want to sit in ah the dark music room and listen to the shadow again? Yeah, let's definitely do that. so yeah that's yeah Yeah, it was like a room with like two giant chairs and a bunch of shit I couldn't touch and and like ah ah old revolutionary war guns in the cabinets and a bunch of records and a stereo system that I didn't understand because that's how stereo systems were 20 years ago.

00:16:24

dustinzick

Just set a room in your house when you were growing up, the dark music room. yeah

00:16:40

dustinzick

fa

00:16:40

Alex

That sounds pretty badass.

00:16:43

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:16:44

dustinzick

and So I think we can we can shift to the shadow in just a second, because that was the second one I wanted to cover.

00:16:44

kyle

so

00:16:50

dustinzick

But I wanted to point out two, well, three things. A, the first thing really being that, and it just occurred to me and as we've been having this conversation, that one thing I will give and And I guess the shadow maybe a little bit does well shadow definitely does this and darkman does it and there's nothing inherently bad about an origin story They can be done really well You know as we all know in marvel cinematic universe fatigue like spider-man's been done so many times Batman's been done so many times with origin stories. I will say with the phantom

00:17:29

dustinzick

I would argue it's for worse here, but I appreciate that the fact that they did not do this as an orchard story. I think that may factor into why it was a box office bomb, because for even in 1990, this character was pretty damn obscure. So like to just introduce him in this goofy ass outfit and like with this goofy ass demeanor and expect people to be like, yeah, I'm here for this.

00:17:55

dustinzick

is probably a bridge too far. Not probably, like clearly was a bridge too far. But I want to give them some props for that because it is for for a hero that is an existing IP but is relatively unknown to your new audience. That is a bold choice to go through. It didn't really pan out here, but they should get some points for that.

00:18:18

kyle

No, yeah, nothing would make me nothing would make me happier than a Phantom reboot.

00:18:18

dustinzick

the

00:18:19

Alex

No, that's totally fair.

00:18:24

kyle

That was the origin story with Billy Zane.

00:18:27

dustinzick

but phil he said He's somehow he's somehow 30 years ah ah older but also being yeah like younger or something I mean that that I guess Well

00:18:27

kyle

Like that would be.

00:18:31

kyle

Yeah. Oh, you can just movie magic that.

00:18:34

Alex

Yeah they they don't address it.

00:18:36

kyle

Yeah, yeah that's even better out. They just carry on.

00:18:41

dustinzick

that I mean that would kind of be like another really weird component to this movie that I feel like I mean we didn't talk about it until now is the fact that like his dad shows up as a ghost but like Like just like that just feels like I didn't know I Loved how like nonchalant his like when his dad walks in that the old phantom that died that James Remar killed Was just straight-up talking to him and like the phantom like cave or whatever like his hideout thing and then his like

00:19:19

dustinzick

Assistant kid or whatever it comes I was like, oh were you talking to someone who's like nope not talking to anyone but like that his dad just was like there and then just like kind of vanished and then later on shows up in the back of a taxi like in New Year like there's so much about that that was just kind of like Wait, like it's this what what?

00:19:40

Alex

See, I'm glad I'm really glad you brought that up, Dustin, because I do need to talk a little bit more shit about this movie before we move on.

00:19:41

dustinzick

Why is it?

00:19:47

kyle

Yeah.

00:19:48

Alex

And it's mostly on a like script and story level where there were just lots of moments where I had that reaction reaction of, wait, what, huh? And the things just didn't make sense the way they should in a coherent universe where I

00:20:04

dustinzick

yeah

00:20:07

Alex

didn't buy that all of these villains couldn't conceptualize of a mantle being passed from father to son.

00:20:11

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:20:16

Alex

Like the conclusion that they come to is, oh, the the ghost who walks the Phantom must be immortal because, you know, because I killed him and yet there he is. And you couldn't think that this could maybe be a legacy.

00:20:29

dustinzick

Another person?

00:20:30

Alex

That's right. Another person and is that is wearing this costume.

00:20:31

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:20:34

Alex

So that that was like one beef for me that just kept recurring because it's such a big part of the narrative is the villains being like, he's immortal. Like, you know, what are we going to do?

00:20:45

Alex

and it's even treated like a reveal to the audience when Billy Zane tells his love interest, whose name I'm blanking on, that, i you know, oh, yeah, my father was, ah was the phantom and passed it on to me. So that being treated as a reveal was dumbfounding to me. And I just thought the whole romance subplot was kind of creepy in the way that it ended with him being like become my broodmare and birth like the next iteration of of the phantom in this cave and i actually appreciated that she rejects him at the end but there's still that line where he's like she'll be back and i think i think the movie wants us to believe that she'll be back but yeah that whole like subplot you know

00:21:14

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:21:22

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:32

Alex

was very weird and like oddly misogynistic to me.

00:21:37

dustinzick

And that was Christy Swanson as Diana Palmer. And I feel like this was right in her sweet spot of when she was doing stuff.

00:21:42

Alex

Thank you.

00:21:47

dustinzick

She was two years out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or four years, sorry, because Buffy was in 92 and the Phantom was in 96. I always feel like it was like a 94 movie to me.

00:21:58

dustinzick

But that's always because, i to me, the 90s feel like two different decades, like 1990 to 95, and then 96 to 99 feels like a completely different decade in terms of how things looked and felt. So the the other two things I wanted to to really quickly call out here is is Kyle, you talked about like the costume and how like it really didn't leave much to the imagination and forced Billy Zane to show off.

00:22:23

dustinzick

According to Wikipedia, he spent over a year and a half to get the right muscular look for the Phantom. And then the other thing that I think is kind of cool is that he was in competition with Bruce Campbell for the role.

00:22:37

kyle

Mmm.

00:22:37

dustinzick

It would have been really interesting to see Bruce Campbell as the Phantom, though I feel like he could have done it in the 90s here, but I also feel like he's too much a smarmy asshole for the Phantom. like Billy Zane adds this kind of like do-gooder attitude to it. And we have the benefit of hindsight having seen Titanic before seeing this, but like this came out before Titanic. So like his I think after Titanic, most people kind of viewed him as an asshole, right?

00:23:12

dustinzick

Because of his character in Titanic. Well, if you were going in and seeing this in 96, you'd probably be like, Oh, yeah, like he's goody tissue phantom creeper trying to find his broodmare.

00:23:23

dustinzick

But I i just thought that was kind of interesting to hypothesize of what that would have what the movie would have been like with Bruce Campbell in it.

00:23:24

kyle

Hmm.

00:23:33

Alex

No, that's that's a good point. And I do think for how paper thin the Phantom was as a character, Billy Zane did did a real solid job of giving him some charisma, some humanity, you know,

00:23:45

dustinzick

Yeah, for sure.

00:23:47

kyle

and I mean another like just to go on this like how much Titanic is this is talking about Billy Zane more but how much Titanic has a has changed who Billy Zane, like what his image was,

00:23:58

kyle

Because the Phantom is 96, but I really remember Billy Zane initially, or I guess not even really initially, but I was jarred because I saw Titanic but before I saw Tombstone.

00:24:12

kyle

And in Tombstone, he's like the most gentle summer child in the middle of Arizona with like his traveling, you know, theater group.

00:24:12

dustinzick

Oh yeah, these inches.

00:24:24

kyle

that doesn't make any sense against and it was and that that that right. I mean, he's like such a little baby fawn in that in that movie. So yeah, he had he has like, but of course, yeah.

00:24:33

dustinzick

It's funny as I forgot he was in Tombstone.

00:24:38

kyle

Oh, yeah, dude.

00:24:39

dustinzick

The other thing is he was in, it was either New Zealand or Australian movie called Dead Calm, which was like a thriller with Nicole Kidman and Sam Neill where he, Billy Zane, Nicole Kidman and Sam Neill are a couple on a sailboat in the ocean and Billy Zane shows up like on another decrepit boat and they save him, but he turns out to be the psychopath.

00:25:01

dustinzick

And I don't remember when I saw that, but I know that came out before before the Phantom, I think.

00:25:07

kyle

Yeah, that's 1989.

00:25:11

dustinzick

Oh, oh, wow. 89? OK, yeah.

00:25:12

kyle

Yeah.

00:25:14

dustinzick

So then he was he was also in Back to the Future 1 and 2. I always forget about that too. Not that he had big role in those. But yeah, so interesting. I mean, Billy Zane, right?

00:25:25

dustinzick

Like and then you go look at his like post 2000 filmography and post 2010 and let's see 2012's The Scorpion King 3 Battle for Redemption.

00:25:36

dustinzick

What else sounds good?

00:25:41

dustinzick

Zoolander 2, Dead Rising Endgame, sniper, colon, ghost, shooter, sniper, colon, ultimate kill. Oh, he did back to back a movie called The Great War, and then he did Ghosts of War. So there's how far the the mighty have fallen, I guess.

00:26:01

kyle

Yeah, i see these I see these movies and I see ah i i see a person collecting a paycheck, which I would do too.

00:26:01

Alex

Yeah.

00:26:05

dustinzick

Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

00:26:07

Alex

Yeah, I do.

00:26:09

dustinzick

Yeah, so speaking.

00:26:10

Alex

I do see the alternate future where we would have gotten Billy Zane as a mega, a mega star, because he's got, he's got that wattage.

00:26:17

dustinzick

Oh, for sure.

00:26:19

Alex

He's got the smile. He's got the charisma. He just didn't have the hits to back it up and he, you know, kind of floundered as a result.

00:26:24

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:26:27

dustinzick

Yeah, but I mean, I really think that's the case. It's just it speaks to how important like choosing good rules can be. And some of that is also obviously having good rules offered to you, too.

Exploring 'The Shadow' - Themes and Visions

00:26:40

dustinzick

So speaking of collecting a paycheck, let's talk about Alec Baldwin in the shadow. So ah this was my number, the my middle one for for these, like I liked it more than the Phantom, but mainly because I feel like I don't feel like

00:26:57

dustinzick

The Shadow is a more competently done movie or a better story necessarily, but I feel like there's more interesting ideas in here to me than there was in the Phantom. like I don't feel like any of it lands well. Let me put that out there to begin with. I think it's it's this weird hodgepodge cornucopia of weird-ass ideas that just get mixed up and are poorly executed or interestingly executed, but then buffered by dumb choices and weird facts and things like that.

00:27:32

dustinzick

But i there's enough in it that just like kind of like interests me. that i love I remember like catching it on TV and like the whole thing about the like bad guy's like hotel base being camouflaged to the whole city and like that sticking in my head.

00:27:49

dustinzick

The fucking weirdness of like when Alec Baldwin becomes the Phantom that he like suddenly has a fake nose

00:27:55

kyle

the shadow.

00:27:56

dustinzick

Or the shadow, yes.

00:27:56

kyle

The fake nose. The fake nose is outrageous.

00:27:57

Alex

Listen, I love the fake nose for its stupidity.

00:27:59

dustinzick

Yes.

00:28:00

kyle

It's an outrageous choice.

00:28:02

dustinzick

is Yeah, but it's so like... But it's outrageous and stupid, but also kind of like brilliant too. Like it's just this weird and the fact that like, I still don't know, like it it's like one of three things, right? Like it's either A, like he's putting on like a prosthetic note, like in in the universe of the movie, right? Like either A, he's putting on a prosthetic nose and we're just like not seeing it happen. B, he's hypnotizing people to make them think he looks that way, but he doesn't look that way.

00:28:35

dustinzick

Or C, he's literally like morphing into that look. And it's not clear which of those three scenarios is happening. I think it's probably the hypnotizing one.

00:28:46

kyle

Yeah, i think it's I think it's B, but they're not explicit in any way.

00:28:46

dustinzick

but the

00:28:46

Alex

Yeah. No.

00:28:49

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, and then like there's so many other little like weird Like nuggets that I feel like and in in better hands could have made like become something much more interesting like I loved the uh his like messenger network he has through the city of all the people that like work for him and there's this one like tracking shot when they're sending like a note through pneumatic tubes that literally like seemed to run along every building in New York City and I remember watching that and being like This is like the dumbest most impractical thing, but I also kind of love it But like how did he install all of this?

00:29:30

dustinzick

Like I I I thought that was interesting. I like the weird little the dagger thing that appears at the beginning and again at the end that's just like I

00:29:38

kyle

oh yeah

00:29:42

dustinzick

Again, it's not great in this movie, but there's something interesting about it. I thought that the con show on she won con, the bad guy, John lone, that actor, he is just fun to watch on screen because I feel like he always runs 100% and whatever characters he's playing.

00:30:03

kyle

Oh yeah.

00:30:04

dustinzick

You've got Ian McKellen and Tim Curry, like the cast in this is pretty damn stacked, but

00:30:10

kyle

Oh yeah, they spent cash. They spent some cash.

00:30:11

dustinzick

Yeah, but there's just like not like there's so many cool little things when you stitch them all together. It's it's a mess. It is what this movie is. But I think ultimately the one thing that like my biggest fault for this movie is how absolutely fucking nasty Alec Baldwin's nails are at the beginning of it when he's in his bad guy mode and they show his fingernails and they're like an inch and a half long and they're just like red and dirty and I'm like, why would you live like that?

00:30:42

dustinzick

How fucking gross is that?

00:30:43

kyle

Mm-hmm.

00:30:44

dustinzick

What is wrong with you?

00:30:46

Alex

See those nails do some heavy lifting because we don't get a lot of like insight into what he was like as a warlord. We just get that costume design and exactly it makes you ask those questions like how deep into vile debauchery have you fallen to fucking look like that?

00:30:57

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah. and then seemingly get fully redeemed.

00:31:07

dustinzick

like that that's a interesting story it like As someone unfamiliar with the the radio drama, is like is this true to the character's backstory in the radio drama?

00:31:08

Alex

Excuse me.

00:31:18

kyle

No, no.

00:31:19

dustinzick

Okay.

00:31:20

kyle

Yeah, Alex, Alex, I'm curious, tell you give your thoughts before I before I i bring in the origin and the and what I know from the from the from the radio show, because I feel like that's I hate to be the kind of person I don't at all.

00:31:35

kyle

But I'll say that I hate to be the kind of person to be like, well, the books are better, you know, than these movies are.

00:31:40

dustinzick

i

00:31:42

kyle

But like,

00:31:44

dustinzick

I would say that and I've never even like listened to the other media for this, but I feel like this is so bad that whatever else is out there has got to be better than it.

00:31:47

kyle

Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Yeah, but Alex, I'm curious your thoughts before I before i give any of that any of that context.

00:31:56

Alex

Yeah, so i'm I am pretty aligned with Dustin here in that I think there are enough interesting kernels executed poorly to amount to something that consistently held my interest. And I think the connective tissue was not any of those weird story elements. It was just the overall visual aesthetic and look of this movie, which I kind of dug the hell out of. I thought this is a way prettier movie than it has any right to be. Those beginning scenes when you're in you know the the shadows crime den, I guess in Tibet, and you have all these like lush curtains being draped. like I won't say it made me feel like I was watching a Wong Kar-Wai movie, but it kind of made me feel like I was watching a Wong Kar-Wai movie.

00:32:48

Alex

who like also loves using these like deep reds and lush colors. I loved when we were in New York and the the architecture like is very clearly evoking film noir. I thought the visual effects when the shadow was actually fighting his enemies and you know the way it does use light and darkness was clever.

00:33:14

Alex

Yeah, the the costuming was was on point. I just think this is a pretty movie with some really interesting ideas. I will say that the shadow did not work for me at all as a character, I almost kind of laughed when we We skip over his origin in the most abrupt way where there's this big title card basically saying, oh, he's good now. He was an evil warlord, but he reformed his ways because a sentient dagger was mean to him and that convinced him that he should pursue the path of good. So we skip his origin story.

00:33:54

Alex

And we also skip his backstory because I would have liked to see him doing some evil shit as a warlord in Tibet to actually give some pathos to, you know, the, we're not so different, you and I, interactions between him and and Genghis Khan's descendant, our villain here.

00:34:14

Alex

So yeah, I thought this was mostly a misfire, but there's enough and that interesting and cool. And for me, it really was just that visual consistency that that kept me engaged.

00:34:30

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:34:31

kyle

Yeah. well, the, the movie, yeah, that, that they never really in the radio stuff. Now there's, there's a lot more, there's a lot more shadow publications. There's, there's some print stuff, some comic book stuff, uh, that does, you know, flesh out some things a little bit more, but I really just am going off the radio. Cause I think the radio is kind of the most unique. it's just, it's awesome to listen, listen to some 1930s radio stuff like this because it's just so.

00:34:59

kyle

It's so low tech, but also so like expertly done and all done live and like it's, and it's great. It just, just for that. But if there is no, that whole crazy backstory or whatever we got in the beginning, Alex, there really is none of that. It's kind of, they don't spend time on, on a lot of that. And whenever they do touch on it, it's very vague. And I kind of always appreciated that.

00:35:26

kyle

when it came to listening to the Phantom, that the the powers were never, you know, like Spider-Man gets bit by a spider and becomes Spider-Man, you're like, yep, totally get it. and and And there's just nothing like that with the shadow. And it's so It's, I don't know, it's so subtle and simple what what his power is, which really is like, I mean, this is this is why, you know, option B, Dustin in your, why does he change his appearance? It's because he does have, you know, the ability. And really the ability is just to cloud men's minds. um um And most of it is to be invisible. And so there isn't, he actually doesn't, there is no talk of like a costume.

00:36:10

kyle

in in in the radio stuff. he's That's not like something he needs. He's just with Margo and they and also like all the the episodes also and was something that I didn't really like about this is how kind of grandiose The villain in this was now i I not I did I appreciated the you know, like you said I liked the the character portrayal and all that and that was like a nice intensity but the the the the the scale of that villain was very I get why they made the decision for a big box film, but like

00:36:26

dustinzick

ahha Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:44

kyle

That's not what the phanto or the Phantom, that's very difficult. It's for it's verys very challenging.

00:36:48

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:36:49

kyle

That's not what the Shadow was about. The Shadow was about like, oh, we're going off on a nice weekend together as lovers do. And oh, we found some interesting thing happening in this faraway place.

00:37:01

kyle

And oh, let's peel back the layers of this onion and see if there's any more interesting, potentially nefarious activities going on. And then the way that he breaks down the villains is it's First of all, it's yes, there are guns, but not nearly like I showed here.

00:37:23

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:37:23

kyle

where i mean he's there're They're out guns blazing in that scene, and i I definitely appreciated slash hated when that one guy in the beginning was just like, I'm just gonna shoot this Tommy gun in all directions, like like a psycho.

00:37:34

dustinzick

Out of bridge, yeah, yeah.

00:37:36

kyle

And ah and he's not he is when the time comes, He does get physical most you know with people he's trying to overpower or stop or whatever, but ah they's it's much more of an invisibility and also the ability to throw his voice and have this menacing voice and laugh, which on the radio, also like Orson Welles does a lot of the original original voicing, which is awesome.

00:37:53

dustinzick

Wow.

00:38:01

Alex

Oh that's cool.

00:38:02

kyle

so I definitely encourage you guys to check out the YouTube on this because all the episodes are available. It's super sweet. and another Another thing that's sweet is the old advertisements. I will always remember in advertisements for a product called Blue Coal, when people had to have coal delivered to their home and you could get Blue Coal in three different versions.

00:38:16

dustinzick

her

00:38:18

Alex

Amazing.

00:38:18

kyle

and and and like yeah so yeah theyre in All these episodes are interrupted by like old tiny advertisements, which are incredible. but But yeah, so it's just, it's a lot more, it's a lot more like Sherlock Holmes-y without, you know, like it's a lot more smaller, but also because of that, more interesting.

00:38:31

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:38:36

kyle

And then it's ah it's a lot more of also breaking down, like his ability to be invisible and do the voice thing just kind of makes villains freak out in a way that unravels their shit.

00:38:36

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:38:40

dustinzick

Aha.

00:38:47

kyle

And I appreciate that, like, like compared to all the other superheroes I've gotten in my life, the shadow is the most, Oh, this is like a very, it's it's almost like a little bit like Professor X, where he can't overpower anyone, but he's got this ability to get in there and mess with people's heads and get in their heads a little bit.

00:39:04

Alex

Right.

00:39:04

kyle

And that that that all I really appreciate it.

00:39:06

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:39:07

kyle

So for this to be ah a lot more of a like shoot them up type a type of action movie with all that weird origin, non origin backstory stuff with all of the

00:39:10

dustinzick

Action. Yeah.

00:39:13

Alex

Right.

00:39:18

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:39:20

kyle

huge implications of this villain. It just felt like they...

00:39:26

dustinzick

It's like it wasn't an adaptation of what it was. It was taking my character and blowing it up.

00:39:30

kyle

Yeah.

00:39:31

Alex

Yeah.

00:39:32

kyle

And kind of, yeah.

00:39:33

dustinzick

Yeah. It was like, okay, great.

00:39:34

Alex

Well, I might might jump in here with with a quote from David Cope, who was the the writer for this.

00:39:34

kyle

And just adding Hollywood to it.

00:39:37

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:39:44

Alex

He wrote Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones 4. And he was hired to write a draft of this. And he listened to the radio serial like like you did, ah when he was growing up.

00:39:57

Alex

and said that in order to differentiate the shadow from other superhero flaws in the time, Cope focused on the copy line. Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men and wondered how the shadow knew what evil lurks in the hearts of men.

00:40:12

Alex

And basically that's how, you know, he came up with the origin story. Oh, it's because he was a bad guy too. So I think it's illuminating that they like, they took the copy line for the radio show and didn't actually explore the character.

00:40:25

dustinzick

Like take that. Yeah.

00:40:26

kyle

That's so weird, man, cause...

00:40:26

Alex

They just, they just took like a tag.

00:40:26

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:40:29

kyle

Cause it's so much more of like, he is a person that got interested in studies that led him to be able to develop these powers. And they're almost like, it was almost through the power of study and meditation and like finding the right gurus that he was able to pick up.

00:40:38

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:40:48

kyle

You know, it's a little bit white man goes east and comes back with interesting shit type of stuff. But that, but because they kind of kept it very vague, it just, it was always, I don't know, it was it was just nice.

00:40:59

kyle

And honestly, it was perfect for radio as well because like

00:41:02

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:41:02

kyle

you know, for all the for for all the reasons when you guys listen to it. but just and his And the laugh and all those things and and how his voice is breaking people down and they can't see him. But yeah, he really he waits to be physical.

00:41:15

kyle

And that's kind of something that I thought was interesting that a lot of the invisibility here was used like almost like ah ah like a nightcrawler character where he's just coming out of the woodwork and throws a jab and then it disappears again and throws another jab.

00:41:15

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:41:27

kyle

And yeah, there was, theres yeah, Alec Baldwin was a,

00:41:27

dustinzick

right

00:41:31

dustinzick

interesting choice. I mean, that's it's it makes more sense when you think about where he was in the 90s and like they were trying to, I mean, he in it to varying degrees of success as a leading man and stuff.

00:41:32

kyle

Interesting choice.

00:41:43

dustinzick

I mean, I'm a fan of Alec Baldwin's work, but like very different now in 2024 when you think of the last 10 years and

00:41:51

Alex

Right.

00:41:51

dustinzick

and things like that. But I mean, I think the the moments of conflict in this movie that worked well were like the beginning of those moments, like that the opening scene on the well, not opening, but the early scene on the bridge with the mobsters when he you just hear the shadow cackling in the background and then he like that stuff is cool. Like and that to me, from hearing you describe it, Kyle, feels more akin to what I imagine the radio show was to of like Yeah, just kind of like messing with people's minds and stuff. I did I did appreciate like what they were experimenting with like the scene in the lab when he is fighting all the the The bad guys and like they're trying to shoot him and at one point they like catch his shadow on the wall and he like comes out of the wall like that I mean it was bad old special effects, but like I appreciate that they tried something kind of different and unique with that but

00:42:50

dustinzick

it again was kind of like unclear of like, okay, like, is he really a shadow? Like, is this a mystical thing or is he literally just hypnotizing them into thinking he's a shadow right now?

00:42:57

kyle

Yeah.

00:43:03

dustinzick

Because once they shone the light on him, like, I did get in my head and I'm gonna get in my head right now of like the logistics of this because if he is a shadow,

00:43:15

dustinzick

And then they show him the light on him and he like was like, he couldn't move because they were showing the light on him and then he became whole from the shadow.

00:43:20

Alex

I

00:43:24

dustinzick

I'm like, well, but if there's no light on you, then you can't be a shadow.

00:43:24

Alex

am.

00:43:28

dustinzick

So I was like really confused.

00:43:28

kyle

Hmm.

00:43:30

Alex

I mean, the powers are not well-defined.

00:43:33

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:43:33

Alex

The powers are very confusing, very ill-defined.

00:43:34

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:43:35

kyle

And they and they yeah and they kind of tried to do so much that almost demands more definition.

00:43:41

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:43:41

kyle

Whereas the word and honestly, you know, I would love to see someone tackle the shadow with like a 30 minute kind of monster of the week type of thing.

00:43:50

dustinzick

That's what I was going to say. like I mean, that's literally what the radio show is, right? Maybe not 30 minutes.

00:43:54

kyle

Yeah.

00:43:55

dustinzick

But like this feels, I mean, it should be a serial series. like It should be a 30 or or you know an hour long episodic kind of thing versus a movie.

00:44:05

dustinzick

like This feels like a very easy case. And I imagine in the 90s that would have done well, too, like if they would have just made a TV show. So what a pity that is.

00:44:17

kyle

And you can you could have just in in the 90s, too, like with special effects, you don't even have to like there's you don't need to like blur him out.

00:44:17

dustinzick

yeah another man

00:44:25

kyle

You just need a voice.

00:44:26

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:27

kyle

And like you don't even he doesn't even need to be there. And then you cut and he's there. And then if if I can punch something in the face, and in like, it would have been so accomplishable with what was available then that they but they you know, they Hollywood got its hands on it.

00:44:37

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:44:39

Alex

Right.

00:44:42

kyle

And I understand all those things and whatever.

00:44:42

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:44:44

kyle

But yeah, so it was just it was it was tricky and he's just not such a smarmy ass in the in the radio as well. Like he's a little bit more that he's just it's a little bit more just a guy living.

00:44:57

kyle

Always intrigued and always like wanting to use his powers for good or whatever but it doesn't have this doesn't have it it doesn't get to that network of craziness and and all that stuff and

00:45:06

dustinzick

Yeah. Well, it's so weird to think about this in like the and we talked at length about the backstory that this this has. and Alex, you gave us the context of seemingly where the ah ah writer came from and and putting that in here. But like it just it to me, it feels weird to think about like you didn't need that like

00:45:29

kyle

Yeah.

00:45:29

dustinzick

There's some tieback at the end when he's fighting Khan and the dagger, but like you didn't need you could have done that a different way or not had the dagger. like it it really just kind of confuses the the character more and like it tries to like it sets it up for a really interesting like amoral character and having some really interesting commentary on like morality and like how much work you need to do to redeem yourself and stuff like that. But it never actually like I don't even want to say it. Ask those questions and doesn't answer them. and Like just it's like you can see someone thinking of asking those questions, but they never do because you could have done some really cool things with like, yeah, he was a warlord for seven years and he left that and came back to the city and has all these resources to to set up this network to do good.

00:46:27

dustinzick

But those connections still come back and and kind of haunt him or like people still recognize him or reach out to him as the warlord or or fear him or whatever. You could have had these things happen where his past caught up to him a little bit and he had to reconcile that with his love interest or with his uncle, who was the police commissioner, who got hypnotized every night seemingly when he thought about going after the shadow.

00:46:55

dustinzick

So there's there's a lot of like, yeah.

00:46:57

Alex

are just some internal conflicts in Alec Baldwin's characterization. like i I think he was at his best when he was portraying the shadow as kind of a smarmy, you know, when he was doing his playboy, rich boy, you know, defense.

00:47:18

Alex

He made the pretty good he made a pretty good Bruce Wayne analog when he's like in the nightclub with his uncle.

00:47:24

Alex

I thought that scene those scenes were fun. But yeah, there was no sense of any internal conflicts from his previous warlord days, which could have been mined for you know for compelling drama and there are definitely lines of dialogue between him and um and um what's the the villain's first name he's a con

00:47:47

dustinzick

She won, or Sha won, S-H-I-W-N.

00:47:50

Alex

yes which Yeah, she won con. So yeah, she won con has a couple lines about his, his warlord past, but there's never yet any, any internal conflicts that we see through Baldwin's performance. And that's such a big, a big miss for a movie that seems to be revolving around that, that depth that it doesn't explore.

00:48:15

dustinzick

Yeah.

Diving into Sam Raimi's 'Darkman'

00:48:17

dustinzick

Well, should we move on to Sam Rami's Dark Man, which was my favorite of these three? And I'm embarrassed to say that I had never watched this in its entirety as a huge Rami fan.

00:48:32

dustinzick

and Yeah.

00:48:33

Alex

Yeah, that that surprised me that you hadn't seen this before because I know how much you love Army of Darkness and and the Evil Dead movies.

00:48:38

dustinzick

Yeah. and i've I've seen Arm of Darkness probably 50 times, and the Evil Dead movie is pretty damn close to that. and I've definitely seen parts of this caught it on TV and and was familiar with it. I honestly think I might have seen Darkman 2 die Darkman. No, Darkman 2 is the Return of Durant, and then the third one is Die Darkman Die. and

00:49:03

dustinzick

unfortunately Unfortunately, Liam Neeson does not return in either of those, but it's instead, Dark Man is played by Arnold Wussle, who you would recognize as the Mummy from the first two Mummy movies with Brendan Fraser.

00:49:16

dustinzick

I definitely remember seeing those on TV in like the 2000s, but I loved this and I recognize that my high level of affection for this is paired with my appreciation for Rami's work and This I think came out two years before Army of Darkness. Because Army of Darkness was 92. Yeah, and this was 90. And I think that's part of why I loved it so much is because there's so much visually that's going on that you can see as kind of precursor for stuff that he does in Army of Darkness with Bruce Campbell. So to me, it felt like

00:49:59

dustinzick

Wouldn't I wouldn't call it a brother film or a sibling of army of darkness But it definitely feels like ah a cousin cousin to army of darkness in theme and just in characterization and visuals especially so I just kind of got a kick out of being like I he does that to an army of darkness But he like did it a little better or did a little differently I also just thought like the character of dark man is pretty compelling in a way to me of like an original anti-hero. Obviously, out of these three movies, he's the only one that is like original to this material, I believe. And so I thought it was kind of cool to see that enacted on screen. I thought Liam Neeson did great and was having a blast. It seemed like kind of hamming it up. This is probably the earliest Liam Neeson movie I've ever seen.

00:50:55

kyle

Princess McDormand too, when she should when she showed up I was like, oh wow.

00:50:57

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, I didn't know she was in this at all.

00:50:57

Alex

Yeah, she's young in this.

00:51:03

kyle

I mean, like it's it speaks to it speaks to that we've been doing this long enough, Dustin, that i in about 10 minutes in this movie, I was like, Oh, no, i yes, Dustin loves this movie. Like I like like I can just I was and like, I definitely was like, No, I'm sure Alex is gonna like it as well.

00:51:18

kyle

But this is really a distance alley.

00:51:20

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

00:51:21

kyle

And I did, you know, to to to not to not just be negative about it, because it I liked it second, just because of how much I didn't like the shadow.

00:51:32

kyle

But you know the there is there is a nice, the whole device, whatever you want to call it, where he's working on the skin regeneration stuff.

00:51:46

kyle

And it it gives him this ability to enter back into the world for this fleeting and therefore tragic amount of time. that that in and of itself as a device I can appreciate as a plot device, as a mechanism, whatever I call it again.

00:52:01

kyle

But like I can appreciate the creativity of that and kind of that merging with with the whole narrative of this character and the way the story flows.

00:52:09

dustinzick

Uh-huh.

00:52:11

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:52:12

kyle

Yeah, yeah.

00:52:13

dustinzick

yeah

00:52:14

kyle

And I appreciated, you know, there's, there's definitely a few scenes where I kind of like the zaniness a lot. I was, I was a big fan of the, of the initial gunfight where that dude's like, Oh, how are they?

00:52:20

dustinzick

but

00:52:28

kyle

He's very surprised. Like there's, there's a couple of turns that really got me. And I enjoyed, but. And on Android, I'm cutting off people's fingers with the cigarette things. I was like, that would be very difficult to do.

00:52:39

dustinzick

Yeah, right.

00:52:40

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:52:40

kyle

Like, incredibly difficult.

00:52:42

kyle

That thing would have to be hilariously sharp.

00:52:42

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:52:45

kyle

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:45

dustinzick

yeah That initial gunfight, like the very opening scene is the one you're talking to, like that whole thing.

00:52:50

kyle

Yeah, yeah.

00:52:51

dustinzick

I was like, how the fuck are these guys winning here? Like the dude hobbled in like with a gun for his leg and like seemingly that was like the only gun that got through and there was like

00:52:57

kyle

Yeah.

00:53:04

dustinzick

50 people and like, how are they not having the upper hand here?

00:53:08

Alex

Mm

00:53:08

dustinzick

And also on that note, when they break into what's dark man's actual name, I should know this, but I don't. Dr. Westlake, Dr. Peyton Westlake, when they break into his lab to steal the thing that he didn't realize he had.

00:53:25

dustinzick

I loved so much that there's so they're panning around and he he realizes that Durant, the main bad guy in all of his cronies are in the room.

00:53:33

Alex

-hmm

00:53:35

dustinzick

Right. And he's looking around and there's there's he's got three or four of them. And one of them is the guy from the opening scene who snuck in a gun because he's missing a leg instead of a prosthetic like he had a gun.

00:53:48

dustinzick

So another guy grabs the gun and he's hopping. Right. Because he took the gun.

00:53:53

kyle

yep

00:53:54

dustinzick

I loved the fact that when they break into the lab, the only person there is Dr. Westlake and the rest are all in on it. Like they're all the bad guys. But yet Westlake looks over and sees the guy fucking hopping, which implies that someone pulled his gun out from his leg and he didn't bring his actual prosthetic leg.

00:54:13

dustinzick

Cause he like, that's how he transports the gun is using it as a leg or something.

00:54:15

kyle

Yep. Yeah.

00:54:19

dustinzick

Uh, and so I just thought that was kind of, absurd. Let me ask you this, though, Kyle, do you feel like of the three movies we're talking about tonight, which one do you feel like had like the most like that you feel like you could see a ah ah vision from a director and like that, whether you like it or not, like that, like, yeah, this person like really wanted to create something here?

00:54:39

kyle

Yeah.

00:54:45

kyle

Yeah. And I think that's kind of like what I was what I was referring to his tone. But I mean, it is it is Ramey's out tourism, right? Like it is.

00:54:52

Alex

Right.

00:54:52

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:54:53

kyle

and And that was realized as much as it you know wasn't in particular flavor. Like that definitely is realized. And I mean, you know, and I am not a Sam Raimi fan, but not because I don't respect what he is trying to do and has been able to accomplish.

00:55:11

kyle

like there's is This something my another one of my friends and I always talk about with regard to movies is is that we can we can forgive a lot and appreciate a lot about ambitious a ambitious attempts to make a movie and you know to be able to actually

00:55:26

Alex

Mmhmm.

00:55:30

kyle

execute all the way through, keep that tone, keep that pace, have that kind of whimsical nature of it. I mean, this is the guy that put the dancing in Spider-Man and was like, we're doing it.

00:55:42

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

00:55:42

kyle

You know what I mean? And that that perspective and ability and willingness to do stuff like that, I think is the reason why also, you know, it's the reasons why when this movie does work and it does work for a lot of people.

00:55:59

kyle

I like I'm about that. And I'm i'm a i like, that's that is what I do kind of come to cinema for as much as it's kind of like it's like a tasty menu.

00:56:01

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:56:08

kyle

You know what I mean? You put your hands in the in the but you put your stomach in your your hands in the in what am I trying to say you put your stomach in the hands of the chef and you're like I don't know if I'm gonna like all these things that come out but I'm gonna respect what's being attempted here and I'm not gonna what am I gonna like say yeah I want that but like take that part off like no you're just there for the tasting menu you're going for it you have things to say about every little dish and that's kind of how I feel about

00:56:19

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:56:31

kyle

this movie and also directors like Sam Raimi as well, but I do think he's pretty unique as as things go.

00:56:37

dustinzick

Yeah.

00:56:38

kyle

But yeah, I mean, most of his his body of work is just kind of not my flavor, but I do respect the ambition. So to answer your question in a very long way, yeah, this is definitely the movie that that has that the most, that understands itself the most, the most completely.

00:56:47

dustinzick

yeah Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:53

Alex

Right.

00:56:53

dustinzick

Yeah. And I would argue

00:56:54

Alex

Created by someone with a singular vision, for sure.

00:56:57

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like, I mean, like and kind of adjacent to that when I think of these three movies, like I feel like to me, this one tells the most compelling story, hands down. And and the Phantom, I feel like, is a distant second in that regard in telling a ah I wouldn't call the Phantom story particularly compelling, but I would say it tells a good story that that feels whole, and the shadow feels very...

00:57:25

Alex

Sorry, bones are there.

00:57:27

dustinzick

Yeah, and the shadow feels very disjointed to me, and like that it had a lot of ideas that threw up like someone threw on the wall, and then most of them didn't stick. But for me, and and again, these are rose-colored glasses, clearly biased by my love for Rami, but like this this movie feels like it has a very clear like vision and story to it that he tells in a way that was like very...

00:57:53

dustinzick

Everything lands in the way I expect he intended it to land in this one, whether you like it or not.

00:57:53

kyle

Mm hmm.

00:57:58

dustinzick

I feel like I see that very clearly here. Alex, what did you think of this? I know you mentioned at the beginning that you'd seen it about 10 years ago, but you said you liked it even more on this rewatch.

00:58:12

Alex

Yeah, I mean, i I've got the word love bouncing around my head as I think about this movie, and I think it is this combination of I do like you, Dustin, really dig Sam Raimi as an auteur. I like his B-movie camp, and I like his visual flourishes, and, you know, the Evil Dead movies were great for me.

00:58:37

Alex

love the Spider-Man movies, you know, again for their their camp and their kind of heightened factor. But I might even put Darkman pretty high in my Sam Raimi filmography and I think it has to do with with Peyton, with our protagonist and with that story. And with all of that like cartoonish B-movie bombast where you have you know a villain whose trademark is cutting people's fingers off with cigar cutter and you know ridiculously like kind of intentionally inflated, over-acted scenes.

00:59:13

Alex

You also have this like deep, deep pathos and and tragedy. And there's like, it's kind of like a gothic horror story, what happens to Peyton. And I i think Liam Neeson plays it perfectly where I love those scenes that you mentioned, Kyle, where he's got his mask with his synthetic skin on, you know, he's overcome his,

00:59:40

Alex

his disfigurement temporarily, but it's kind of like a perverse Cinderella. You know, the clock is ticking.

00:59:46

kyle

Mm

00:59:48

Alex

He's going to turn into a pumpkin real soon. And you can see that in the way that he emotes. You can see the fear, the horror. I love the elements that part of his, you know, superhero transformation is he loses the ability to regulate his emotions.

01:00:05

Alex

Everything's super fucking heightened. Like, you know, he feels all of these things so acutely. Yeah, I just think there's so much soulfulness to the character.

01:00:13

kyle

-hmm

01:00:17

Alex

And I think Liam Neeson really brings that out. and i think the, you know, the campy excess, the stylistic flourishes, all of those like crazy zoom-ins and camera

01:00:28

Alex

To me, they the whole carnival scene, all that campy, you know, stuff that I i gobble up greedily, it heightens the tragedy and like the melancholy.

01:00:28

dustinzick

The whole carnival scene.

01:00:39

Alex

And I think they work in concert and, you know, when it's got him at the end, like, basically writing off into the crowd with you know with his Bruce Campbell mask mild spoilers for the last scene of of Dark Man you know it just it all clicked for me and I'm like this is this is great shit you've got you know you've got camp you've got pulp but you've got this real like humanity and and tragedy that just had me

01:01:10

Alex

Yeah, look like and hook line and sinker. i I love this movie. I'll say it.

01:01:14

dustinzick

Yeah. Uh, something interesting I dug up on this is that, uh, the Genesis for this and Rami creating his own character or superhero, uh, is he wanted to make a movie based on the shadow and universal.

01:01:29

dustinzick

And this was in the early eighties after coming out of evil dead, evil dead two and universal who was working on their adaptation for a long time, wouldn't give him the rights to it.

01:01:39

dustinzick

So he went ahead and made his own character.

01:01:43

Alex

fascinating.

01:01:44

kyle

that's so, oh, it's tragic.

01:01:48

Alex

What could have been?

01:01:48

kyle

Oh man, that's, cause like, I don't even know if it would have liked it, but I know it'll light it more than that.

01:01:48

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:54

dustinzick

It would have been more, yeah, it would have been more at least, yeah, it would have at least been an interesting watch, if not a good watch, an interesting one for sure.

01:01:56

kyle

More interesting than that shit.

01:01:56

Alex

Yeah, I would have been more coherent.

01:01:59

kyle

Yeah.

01:02:04

kyle

Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I'm of just looking up Sam Raney's stack. Did he actually direct multi, the multitude of madness, the multiverse of madness, the doctor strange?

01:02:12

dustinzick

he did He did.

01:02:14

kyle

Huh.

01:02:15

dustinzick

He came in. He wasn't the original director attached to it.

01:02:18

kyle

Oh, right. He had to save it.

01:02:19

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah. And I i have many issues with that movie.

01:02:25

kyle

Yeah.

01:02:26

Alex

Yeah.

01:02:26

dustinzick

But but the the moments in it that they let Rami be Rami, like really I don't know if I was saying his name right. I should figure that out. But the moments that let him be him, you really feel exciting. It it reminds me of Spider-Man 2. There's a great sequence when after the arms get melded to Doc Ock's back and the surgeons are trying to disconnect them where he just goes like full horror movie and it's like a five minute sequence that it literally feels like you're watching Evil Dead 2.

01:03:01

dustinzick

And it's like, you you could put any scene like that up and I'd be like, oh, that's Sam Rammi. You could just tell stylistically that it's done in a way that's very much him.

01:03:12

dustinzick

But yeah, like it would have been really cool to see him do an adaptation of The Shadow. I think that would have been a lot more interesting than what we got with Baldwin.

01:03:20

kyle

Still possible, Sam.

01:03:21

dustinzick

Yeah, right?

01:03:21

kyle

If you're listening, get after it.

01:03:23

dustinzick

Right?

01:03:24

kyle

You have the cash. You have Disney cash now. Like, come on. Give it to us.

01:03:29

dustinzick

It would have been interesting to see, like I'm, eventually I think I'm going to go back and, well, I i might as well say I don't, I didn't watch the sequels to this. I saw parts of them, but to see, to watch the two dark man sequels, I don't, I know they're not going to hold a candle to this because Sam's not directing them and Liam Neeson's not in them. And I think the only person that returns is the bad guy.

Context of 90s Superhero Films

01:03:52

dustinzick

Larry Drake is Durant comes back in the second one somehow.

01:03:57

dustinzick

but otherwise like I i'm just curious like I feel like It could they could still be fun in their own way as like see movies like directed dvd kind of stuff uh, but this This for me like got I was like, man. Yeah, like this just feels like cool like peak early 90s late 80s like You know just kind of comes through like in clutch of a uh action hero like superhero movie that Is different? Uh, and I mean, I guess there wasn't a whole lot out around this time He had batman tim burton's batman and that was kind of it in the early 90s of superhero movies like worth of shit Uh, because I do think there was I mean there was like a dolph lundgren punisher and that shitty captain america movie with uh

01:04:47

dustinzick

I forget what his name is, J.D. Salinger's son captain as Captain America was in the early 90s too, but yeah.

01:04:54

Alex

wild.

01:04:56

dustinzick

so like it's I think this probably sat in a really cool space when it came out. I wish I would have been older than three years old so I could have like gone to the theaters and enjoyed it in the theaters when it was released. Did you just jump back because I Oh, okay.

01:05:15

dustinzick

I thought you chuckpped you were like, hot wait, how old are you?

01:05:15

kyle

Nope. No, no, no, not at all.

01:05:20

dustinzick

oh Yeah. Yeah. i I love this too. I'm probably going to get ahold of it on like 4K when I can and add it to my collection. ah ah This feels like one that would be if there's any really good like making a documentary, it would be fun to watch.

01:05:38

dustinzick

evil dead 2 has a really great like 30 minute making of a documentary of all the effects called the gore the merrier uh that i've probably watched as many times as i've seen the movie because i on the vhs tape of evil dead 2 i had growing up The documentary was after the credits played in the movie. It went into the ah ah documentary. And so we watched that every time. But this one, I imagine if there is any good behind the scenes footage and stuff would be stuff that I would watch on a DVD if they had it.

01:06:09

kyle

something that's gonna be interesting for me is i i'm ah I'm a lazy man. And so when I've long lost the ability and desire to like find a way to watch these movies for free, I think I've like mentioned that. And so I, i and and also we we're watching so many movies. I also have a difficult time being like, you want me to rent this movie?

01:06:38

kyle

for $6 or $4, but I could buy it for $5. I have a very hard time not being like, I don't even care. I'm gonna give you that extra dollar one just so I can own it because I don't know if I'm actually gonna be able to watch this in the 48 hours that you're gonna give me and then I'm just gonna rent it again and have to spend $8.

01:06:55

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:06:56

kyle

And so, but there's gonna be these interesting moments years from now within the next few years, where I'm on planes, and I have all of these movies downloaded on my Apple. And I'm i'm going to turn one on because it's going to be a six hour flight. And I'm going to watch it and it's going to have like some of these some of these these are the types of movies that I as as we have seen, like can initially pull back from and initially like not be into.

01:07:26

kyle

And a lot of that can can come from the distractions of the world and whatever. like Again, like we've we've talked about seeing things in the theater is a completely different thing.

01:07:33

Alex

Mhmm.

01:07:35

kyle

And I'm going to watch one of these like in in a in a situation where there's nothing else to do but watch it. And I could just see some of them, not all of them, and not all of the ones today, but like dark man specifically of these three.

01:07:42

dustinzick

yeah

01:07:47

kyle

will be I now own the Phantom as well.

01:07:49

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:07:49

kyle

Thank you, great. One more dollar to buy. it What am I gonna do? and and And I'm gonna watch them. And i there's you know my my another one of my friends who's big into more is more in the music.

01:08:01

kyle

He always talks about albums as growers or faders.

01:08:04

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:08:04

kyle

you know And there's and and there's there's a there's a lot too to the movie the movie world that I think is is similar in that way.

01:08:05

Alex

Yep.

01:08:12

kyle

And this is one where, Initially, I could be like, oh, God, you know, Maris wasn't the right mindset or wasn't in the right whatever.

01:08:18

dustinzick

That's I was going to say that earlier.

01:08:18

kyle

and Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:19

dustinzick

I feel like this is this is one movie of everything. Not that you've disliked a ton of stuff that we've watched, but like of anything that we've disagreed on in terms of how much we enjoyed.

01:08:30

dustinzick

I feel like this is one that I would feel confident in saying that I could see you not that it would become your favorite movie or anything.

01:08:37

kyle

Yeah, but it would become like ah ah it become like a kind of thing that's like, oh, I'm i'm on a plane. I'm watching Darkman.

01:08:43

dustinzick

Yeah, and then watching it and being like, actually, no, like this was this is good.

01:08:43

kyle

You know what I mean? Like, like yeah.

01:08:44

Alex

I know.

01:08:46

dustinzick

Like I i enjoyed this now that I like but not that there's like a lot of little Easter eggs or not even Easter eggs, but like little meticulous details that you can pick up on in another viewing.

01:08:58

dustinzick

But I feel like this is a movie that because because some movies are like that that are a lot of fun to rewatch because you're like, oh, yeah, I didn't notice that or.

01:08:58

kyle

Yep.

01:09:06

dustinzick

For me, it's like movies like that fall into two categories, one of rewatching it and I'm like literally looking at the story and being like, oh, there's that hint and there's that thing. And it's fun to connect that other times after seeing it the first time and then going back and rewatching it, I'm just literally thinking of the mechanics of how the movies made because I know the story and I know how the movie plays out. So now I can just kind of be like, oh, yeah, it's cool how they did, you know, this scene or they set the camera for this or like I can kind of let my mind go into that sandbox.

01:09:37

dustinzick

But this movie, I feel like I don't know that it necessarily would fit in either of those, but I just feel like I could see you rewatching this based on what I know about how we've talked about movies as we've been recording this podcast and rewatching it and being like, no, like actually now I like know what I'm in for.

01:09:56

dustinzick

And and it allows you to appreciate it more and to enjoy it more kind of a thing.

01:09:56

kyle

Mm hmm.

01:09:59

kyle

I think. Yeah, and I like going into movies real blind, you know what I mean?

01:10:05

kyle

So like when when I turned it on, the first time that I knew this was that Liam Neeson was involved, was when I purchased it. the first time I you know, like Francis McDormand was involved was when I purchased it.

01:10:17

kyle

And I think those two actors with what they have become in my my history,

01:10:21

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:24

kyle

It kind of fucked with my expectations of what was coming.

01:10:26

dustinzick

You're like, I know this isn't what you're saying with Liam Neeson, but you're like, Qui-Gon Jinn, what the hell?

01:10:28

Alex

Right.

01:10:33

kyle

Yeah, I'm like, there's, yeah, there's all these, this is all the, and like Francis McDormand is, francecis mcdormandt was yeah, more jarring, you know, like whatever three billboards.

01:10:37

Alex

or like Frances McDormand right because you're you're probably coming in like thinking of yeah three billboards you're probably thinking the Fargo where she's playing these like very naturalistic characters who like emote

01:10:40

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:46

kyle

Yes.

01:10:49

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:10:50

kyle

and incredible, the kind of characters that would not, like the scene where, I mean, the the beginning of the movie, where she's like getting into a taxi and like kind of aloof that he's actually asking her to marry him, but he's doing it in this really stupid way.

01:11:05

dustinzick

Uh huh.

01:11:05

kyle

Then also, I was like, yeah, this is how I i think people proposed in 92 or whatever, like this this tracks somehow of my, you know, six year old understanding of that.

01:11:14

dustinzick

Uh huh.

01:11:16

kyle

and, and that, that whole, so that whole scene is just so unsatisfying. it's not what the movie's about, right? But I'm like, those two actors talking about getting married, I was just like, what, what, what is going, why are they?

01:11:22

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah.

01:11:27

dustinzick

What is going on? Yeah. And then you're still couches just kind of hooks onto that.

01:11:29

Alex

Yeah.

01:11:32

dustinzick

And so your your perception of what you're seeing kind of distorted from that going forward.

01:11:36

kyle

And so, yeah. And so like you guys talk about the carnival scene and that was where I was like, I, can't take this right now.

01:11:43

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:44

dustinzick

You should.

01:11:44

kyle

And you guys and you guys are fully in which that's the kind of scene that I think over it's the kind of scene over time that like that's the scene I'm thinking of that.

01:11:49

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:52

dustinzick

You should go back and rewatch just the Carnival scene.

01:11:55

Alex

yeah

01:11:55

dustinzick

I think I might go back tonight and rewatch just the Carnival scene because it really it is.

01:11:55

kyle

Yeah.

01:11:59

Alex

It's so good.

01:12:01

dustinzick

It really is like it is the most Sam Rami scene in the entire movie. That was the scene where I was like, this is like fucking evil or Army of Darkness. This feels like Army of Darkness in the best possible way.

01:12:15

dustinzick

And I feel like like if I had to describe this movie to someone or like if I was allowed to pull one scene from this movie to like Sure with someone that would be the scene that I would pull and I don't even think it like is super Like I don't think it's so jarring from the rest of the movie But I don't think it like distills the story super well or anything But I think it's like the most fun scene in the movie because it's just

01:12:37

Alex

Yeah, it captures the tone perfectly. And I love, you know, talking about the performance performances and your expectations of those two performers, Kyle, I think it shows how game Liam Neeson and Francis McDormand are as performers and that like they clearly got what Sam Raimi was going for.

01:12:50

dustinzick

yeah

01:12:57

kyle

Yeah.

01:12:57

Alex

Like they knew that like, okay, this guy wants something can't be heightened, exaggerated.

01:12:57

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:13:02

Alex

We are not going for realism here.

01:13:02

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:13:03

kyle

Melodramatic, yeah.

01:13:04

Alex

and melodrama yeah theater acting and you know i can like visualize them emoting in that scene and it's just cracking me up because they go so big with it but yeah

01:13:04

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:13:16

dustinzick

And then you have the, I mean, the under the unsung hero of that scene is the Carney that is like completely apathetic.

01:13:20

kyle

Oh, the Carney's amazing.

01:13:23

dustinzick

like

01:13:24

kyle

The visceral, yeah, the visceral-ness of me, like I wanted to kick the shit out of him.

01:13:27

dustinzick

I know, I know.

01:13:28

kyle

Then like what that teased out of me, but then of course, yeah, yeah, again, like I'll watch, don't worry, I'll watch it again. It'll, it'll happen. But you know it reminds me also like what was the, it was I think in the first or second three movies we watched and it's the one that's dystopian and there's radioactive world and the really creepy fat guy comes in and

01:13:47

dustinzick

stopian right Oh, uh, yeah. The, the, uh, what was it called? Uh, hardware.

01:13:56

kyle

hardware. that is another That's another movie I own that that I feel like I'll watch on a plane at some point and I will continue because there were so many little things in that that I liked and it's it's the kind of thing that on rewatch you will, you'll you'll pick up a little bit more of that.

01:13:56

Alex

Oh, thank you.

01:13:57

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:14:06

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:14:10

dustinzick

Yeah, but that's a good example. but like That's one where I think someday I will rewatch it. I don't know if I'll like it anymore, but I do feel like there's enough that I probably didn't pay attention to that I would be interested in revisiting that to digest different parts of it.

01:14:10

kyle

So yeah.

01:14:26

dustinzick

but

01:14:26

kyle

Yeah.

01:14:27

dustinzick

Yeah, Darkman, of these three movies between the Shadow of the Phantom and Darkman, I feel like Darkman was the one that was having the most fun. That was just like just kind of going all out and being weird as shit, which is to be expected when you know who's behind it and everything. but

01:14:46

Alex

Yeah, ah I'm curious, you know, because we're we're talking about all these elements with the movie, if the like, the tragedy of it, the horror of it, if that resonated with either of you guys, because that was definitely, you know, something that took this from, oh, this is a really fun romp, stylistically well directed to, oh, this is real good shit. There's actually like real, you know, real human emotion being mined here as comically exaggerated as it is.

01:15:58

dustinzick

um

01:16:00

dustinzick

I do think like that was an undercurrent for me. like I'm probably a little bit blinded by just like the giddiness of being such a fanboy over it and stuff, but I do think that like i i I feel like I noticed that most in the moments when he reunited with his fiance and was cutting it short after all these times because his

01:16:09

Alex

Mm

01:16:26

dustinzick

prosthesis prosthesis was gonna expire or whatever and Feeling frustrated of like just tell her what happened to you.

01:16:30

Alex

Right.

01:16:34

dustinzick

Just like explain what's going on and And like that's kind of a ah ah cliche I feel like in these stories where someone is damaged and they're hiding it from the person they love and the person they love because they're worried that person won't accept them or anything and so I do feel like it is It's funny because it maybe is a bit warranted when he does reveal his face to her and she's kind of like, oh, like not that she viscerally repels from it or anything, but like that she's not immediately like OK with it because he does look pretty fucking gnarly like dudes like.

01:17:12

kyle

Oh yeah, I know he's, he's, he's, yeah, yep.

01:17:12

Alex

Yeah.

01:17:15

Alex

He's a crispy boy.

01:17:15

kyle

I didn't realize Sam, I didn't realize Raymond did a simple plan.

01:17:19

dustinzick

Yes, yes, a simple plan.

01:17:20

kyle

That's, that's, that is my favorite.

01:17:21

dustinzick

So it's another good one, yeah.

01:17:22

Alex

never I've never seen that one.

01:17:23

kyle

That's gotta be my, oh yeah, that's good, Alex.

01:17:25

Alex

Wow.

01:17:25

kyle

We should, we should work that into something.

01:17:27

Alex

Yeah, yeah.

01:17:28

kyle

But that's, yeah, that's one that I saw when I was starting to get into movies, but I was not keeping track of directors.

01:17:35

dustinzick

the The gift is the the one I was thinking of, paranormal thriller film.

01:17:39

kyle

Oh yeah.

01:17:42

dustinzick

I haven't seen that in a long time.

01:17:46

dustinzick

Yeah, we could probably do, hell, maybe some one of these days I'll do a rammy episode and yeah.

01:17:54

kyle

Yeah, I mean, as long as it has a simple plan so we can get Alex to see it. I mean, because I also like, there's things, there's a lot of Sam Raimi movies that I've started and not finished, if I'm honest with you.

01:17:58

Alex

Sign me up.

01:18:04

kyle

And this this would force me in the best way to do that.

01:18:06

dustinzick

Yeah.

Final Rankings and Reflections

01:18:10

dustinzick

Well, think we can just about wrap up here. Maybe each of us can go through our ranking here of, we'll do least favorite to most favorite. Mine, just to reiterate, I picked the order, the order of my at least to most, the Phantom, least favorite by a country mile.

01:18:30

dustinzick

shadow Shadow, second least favorite.

01:18:36

dustinzick

That's number two. Kind of mid-ground there.

01:18:39

kyle

it's in the middle.

01:18:40

dustinzick

And then by by another country mile, Dark Man was my favorite of these three. Like really is the only one that I would qualify as like a winner of these three. Kyle, how about you?

01:18:51

kyle

Yeah, I mean, Phantom Phantom is one for me, dark man is two and shadow is three in terms of in terms of but I don't necessarily like I talked about expect that to stay that way over time.

01:19:02

dustinzick

Uh-huh.

01:19:03

kyle

But yeah, yeah, that's where I'm at right now. Shadow being

01:19:08

dustinzick

Just might as well fall off the list.

01:19:09

kyle

The shadow being an ocean, and just an ocean away.

01:19:11

dustinzick

Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:13

kyle

This country, so many so many country miles.

01:19:13

dustinzick

Yeah, for sure.

01:19:15

kyle

John Denver is just the whole way.

01:19:16

dustinzick

I can see that. Yeah.

01:19:18

kyle

And yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:20

dustinzick

It's the nose. Yeah, the nose-nose. It should sit all the way down.

01:19:22

kyle

Oh my God, that nose.

01:19:24

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:19:24

kyle

And I also like how they don't just, they never just let anything be. They're like, oh, let's show him becoming the nose.

01:19:32

kyle

Do you know what I mean?

01:19:32

Alex

Right.

01:19:32

kyle

Like I would almost have liked it if they were like, oh yeah, he's in the, she's the shadow now. So let's put the nose on, but like never really show that. And it's just like, why is that happening? Who cares? We're not going to talk about it. But no, there was like a closeup of, uh, he's looking dramatically into the camera and his nose is going to elongate and he'll put on his fucking, yeah.

01:19:45

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:19:48

dustinzick

Yeah, yeah, I would have appreciated if they would have just never shown him without the the cowl over his mouth Like that that that was enough for me Like and I feel like as a kid I would see that and like I remember seeing it on tv and being like is that real?

01:19:54

kyle

Yeah.

01:20:02

dustinzick

so Like I couldn't it was just enough as a kid who was an idiot that I couldn't tell if that was fake or not Alex, how about your ranking?

01:20:11

Alex

Yeah, I think they're going to be a mirror of yours. I think number three is ah ah is The Phantom. Number two is The Shadow. And you know i was I was thinking with just you talking about rewatching any of these movies on a plane.

01:20:28

Alex

Kyle, I i don't think I would ever go back and rewatch The Phantom or The Shadow. I think think i think One and Done.

01:20:33

dustinzick

Yeah.

01:20:34

kyle

I also don't think I would.

01:20:36

Alex

Yeah, One and Done is good for me. And then Dark Man, i you know, head and shoulders, a tier above. You know, for anyone listening, that is the one I would definitely recommend you you seek out if you have not seen it before because it's dope shit. But yeah, I really liked this grouping and it was fun to, you know, see two flops that I have known about.

01:21:01

Alex

for my entire adult life but never seen, so it was cool to see why they were flops.

01:21:08

dustinzick

Yeah. All right. Well, we will catch you listeners on our next episode. Thanks.