Oops!Zencastr was unable to start because Javascript is disabled
To fix this problem, check your browser's settings and enable Javascript

Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!

00:00:00

00:00:01

Scorsese Part 1

S1 E9 · Triple Take Cinema

20 Plays1 month ago

Alex takes us on a journey to early Martin Scorsesefilms in what we also identify as a “stealth” De Niro episode.

Mean Streets (1973) - 08:50
Raging Bull (1980) - 43:00
King of Comedy (1982) - 01:05:53

Triple Take Cinema is where your hosts, Dustin, Alex, and Kyle, dive into three movies with a twist. In each episode, one of us takes the reins and picks a theme—whether it’s a wild connection or a subtle thread—and assigns three movies that fit the bill.

We all watch, and then the real fun begins as we dish out our takes.

There are no rules and no limits—just a wild ride through movies we love, movies we've never seen, and a few we hope to forget.

Transcript

Introduction to Triple Take Cinema Podcast

00:00:03

Alex

Welcome to Triple Take Cinema. I am Alex, here as always with my co-host, Dustin and Kyle, and today we are talking Scorsese.

Exploring Scorsese's Blind Spots: Mean Streets, Raging Bull, King of Comedy

00:00:15

Alex

i This is part one of a Martin Scorsese two-parter, and I wanted to pick six films that are complete blind spots to me. The three that we're going to be talking about today are 1973's Mean Streets,

00:00:31

Alex

1980's Raging Bull and 1982's King of Comedy. And I'm also realizing that this is kind of a stealth De Niro Scorsese i episode. these These being three of their big collaborations. And I really wanted to do this two-parter because I've seen a decent amount of Scorsese. I've seen Goodfellas and loved it. Seen Taxi Driver and enjoyed it and definitely want to revisit it. I've seen a lot of his more recent stuff, uh, The Departed, uh, Hugo, uh, yeah, definitely some of, some more of his post 2000s work, but I had some big gaping holes in my Scarsese filmography that I wanted to fill and I wanted to bring you two along for the ride.

Scorsese's Filmography: Mixed Feelings and Favorites

00:01:27

Alex

But before we get into these, and we're going to follow the chronology and go Mean Streets, Reaching Bull, King of Comedy, Kyle, tell us about your relationship with Scorsese and whether or not you had a relationship with these three films, or like me, you were going in completely blind.

00:01:45

Killer Kyle

Not completely blind, one eye blind. I liked that you pulled back from saying you loved taxi driver because you were concerned about being labeled as a sociopath on public internet waves. and

00:01:57

Alex

the only reason, the only reason that i that I held my tongue, the only reason, absolutely.

00:01:58

Killer Kyle

say The only reason, it's the only reason.

00:02:03

Killer Kyle

but I can't say that out there. Jesus. I had i had seen raging bull i'd seen Raging Bull a while ago. all this all That happened for me a while ago when i started what when I started listening to film spotting. Raging Bull, I believe, is in the Pantheon on that on that podcast website, what have you. I believe so. so i check I checked it out then. and i I did have ah ah an understanding of how I felt about it then.

00:02:29

Killer Kyle

So it was interesting to do this now with like 15 years in between viewings. And I had not seen King of Comedy at all. I had heard of it. I had not seen Mean Streets at all. I would say I had heard of it. Yeah, my relationship to Scorsese in general is generally speaking pretty love-hate. I can go down his filmography and all the ones that he either wrote and directed or wrote or directed.

00:03:00

Killer Kyle

it's It's amazing because I was, and I just had to do that while I was watching these movies to make sure, I don't know.

00:03:09

Killer Kyle

I don't know what I was making sure of, just to check my self and sanity in general. But I was like, wait a second, what? Why?

00:03:16

Dustin Zick

What would like like off the hip what would you say is your favorite and least favorite Scorsese film?

00:03:16

Killer Kyle

Why do?

00:03:22

Alex

That's a good question.

00:03:24

Killer Kyle

Oh, man.

00:03:25

Dustin Zick

Off the hip and obviously like they it can be one of these three for either of those two like that's fine.

00:03:26

Killer Kyle

us awesome Yeah,

00:03:31

Dustin Zick

I'm just really curious Okay

00:03:33

Killer Kyle

yeah off the hip, departed is my favorite. And yeah, and I will say it's tough for me to choose.

00:03:36

Alex

Great choice.

00:03:37

Dustin Zick

That's probably mine too. I think I started departed like four times in the movie theater.

00:03:44

Dustin Zick

I

00:03:46

Killer Kyle

and It's tough for me to choose between the Irishman and Mean Streets.

00:03:52

Dustin Zick

Yeah, Irishman is like Like it's uh, it's uh, I mean I feel like late, you know post Well Irishman and killers of the flower moon are like clearly like Scorsese where like He is at a point in his existence where I don't think people say no to him at all, or even suggest no to him.

Fatigue with Recent Scorsese Films

00:04:19

Killer Kyle

Thank you.

00:04:19

Dustin Zick

and And it is becoming less and less beneficial. I feel like the last time that that level of access I feel like worked to a large extent was Wolf of Wall Street. But I think Irishman and Killers of the Flower Moon, there's interesting stuff in both of those.

00:04:34

Dustin Zick

But the execution gets so dragged out that you like Fatigue on it before like you end up fatiguing on the the entirety of it which like kind of Washes out the the yeah, it like washes out the good parts because you're so exhausted by the end of it

00:04:45

Alex

Fatigue is a really good word. I like the way they just describe.

00:04:52

Killer Kyle

yeah But even but killers and I think we can we can obviously touch on this and we certainly will in in part one and part two over the whole thing of it because it's obviously ah ah an obsession of his I will call it an obsession but killers in the flower moon I at least like enjoy the story by the time I've watched the Irishman

00:05:07

Dustin Zick

oh

00:05:11

Killer Kyle

when I'm like 36 or whatever a couple of years ago. I just don't, and this will come up in this in this in this show, I just don't care about gangster movies anymore.

00:05:23

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:05:24

Killer Kyle

And I i think there's something, I really don't.

00:05:24

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:05:27

Dustin Zick

Well, and I'm from I don't disagree.

00:05:28

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:05:31

Dustin Zick

And I feel like for me, it's kind of a thing where like, yeah, like some of the classics like Goodfellas, I'll go back to I kind of want to go back to it now after watching Mean Streets. And it's it's always going to be solid and entertaining to me.

00:05:45

Dustin Zick

But like in same as it departed, but I feel like for a new gangster movie, like the bar is really high. And again, I feel like there's nuggets in Irishman in particular, smaller nuggets than killers, uh, that like were interesting, but then it's like over four hours, no thanks.

00:06:03

Dustin Zick

And then we're de aged De Niro, like also is a huge like slap in the face kind of a thing too.

00:06:09

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:06:12

Dustin Zick

that's off topic. ill I'll say that my, unless, did you have more you wanted to cover, Kyle, or should I give my background?

00:06:18

Killer Kyle

No, no, no.

00:06:19

Dustin Zick

Okay, yeah.

00:06:19

Killer Kyle

Yeah. Give your, give your, give

00:06:20

Alex

Yeah, jump right in.

Mean Streets: First Impressions and Historical Context

00:06:20

Killer Kyle

your background.

00:06:21

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

00:06:21

Dustin Zick

i All three of these were blind spots. I i heard of all of them. The one I'd heard the least about was Mean Streets, but you know very familiar with the existence of Raging Bull and King of Comedy.

00:06:35

Dustin Zick

and I would say both of those were certainly raging bull was definitely on like, uh, I want to watch this someday. Cause like, I don't want to say my dad raised me like to be a huge fan of boxing, but like growing up, like we did play like fight night, the video games a lot. And like he, he would pull me into the living room when.

00:06:54

Dustin Zick

ESPN was running an old Ali fight and things like that. So I feel like I have some degree of appreciation for boxing. And then just my Scorsese relationship, I think is probably similar to the two of you.

00:07:06

Dustin Zick

most I've seen most of his like post 2000 stuff, starting with gangs of New York. I think really the only ones I'm looking at the list that I haven't seen are, I still haven't seen the aviator and I haven't seen silence.

00:07:14

Alex

Mm hmm.

00:07:14

Killer Kyle

Yes.

00:07:22

Dustin Zick

then his pre-2000 stuff, these three movies now and Goodfellas. So like there's there's stuff that I still want to get to, like Cape Fear, ah Fear, ah Casino, Bringing Out the Dead, After Hours, Someday Maybe I'll Launch Taxi Driver,

00:07:43

Dustin Zick

there's There's enough that I still want to fill out. But yeah, it's definitely like a millennial, you know, base millennial appreciation of stuff that was like in theaters when I was like a teenager.

00:07:57

Dustin Zick

kind of going crazy. Like I recently rewatch Kings of New York within them the last year. And I have a soft spot for that movie, even though I think after watching it now for like the seventh or eighth time, I'm like, I can see that this is like not a particularly great movie in some ways, like a bit clouded by being like 14 when I first saw it. But i I still enjoy it more than some of his other more recent stuff.

00:08:27

Alex

I'll wait till the end of the episode to reveal what the other three are going to be, but I'll just give a little teaser that two of the titles that you rattled off, Dustin, for having that scene are going to be on our part two.

00:08:38

Alex

So excited you'll get to check those off.

00:08:38

Dustin Zick

OK, cool.

00:08:42

Alex

And yeah, let's let's get into Mean Streets. And before I hear y'all's thoughts on this, I wanted to give just a quick bit of historical context that I was learning about this movie where Mean Streets was not Scorsese's debut. That was Who's That Knockin' At My Door, which was essentially a student film that he made while at NYU and was followed by a movie called Boxcar Bertha that he was produced by Roger Corman, who's a B movie director. And I don't know about much of either of those two, but I do know that Mean Streets was his first studio film

00:09:23

Alex

And I wanted to pick it to kind of give an introduction to where Scorsese started as an outdoor filmmaker where he really, you know, first kind of came onto the scene and It sounds like I'm going to be more positive on Mean Streets than than both of you guys. But before I hear your thoughts, the one nugget altis is that I was very pleasantly surprised by how stylistically confidence Mean Streets came across to me, where I think I was expecting it to feel a little rougher on the edges. And maybe that's something that you guys felt. But to me, it felt very,

00:10:03

Alex

very confident and stylistically assured in ways that I found really exciting that I'm looking forward to getting into. But first, Dustin and then Kyle, let's hear about how Main Street sat or didn't sit with you.

Critiques of Mean Streets: Style vs. Substance

00:10:18

Dustin Zick

I found it boring. Like I just found it really. I'll be very brutally honest, like I was distracted during this on my phone a bit and like I feel like I only digested maybe half to two thirds of what was going on and was not compelled by that to like stick with it or rewind to catch the things that I missed. And I don't know if it was like a.

00:10:49

Dustin Zick

I think I mean I don't I Want to give myself more credit than this, but don't know that I'm deserving of it I think part of it was just like the The age of it and not that you know early 70s movies can't be entertaining. I just watched for the first time the other week The original Italian job with Michael Caine, which I think is like 69 so that's older than this I love plenty of movies from this era but just like the I don't even say it's like it's not like it was like a bland palette. Like there's colors and stuff like that, but just like the the darkness of it all. Like it just was very like visually uninteresting to me. Like not not I think it was competently filmed and whatnot, but just visually it didn't spark my interest and not that that needs to be in a movie. But the story didn't catch me really either. And it just felt like a lot of like

00:11:46

Dustin Zick

mumbling and stumbling around. And so, yeah, I just found it to be kind of a snooze fest. And I think, Alex, when you watch this, you had texted us and said something like, oh, you felt like Mean Streets walked so good fellows could run. And I mean, you I definitely feel like I and that was before I watched it. So I feel like I kind of had that in the back of my head maybe that kind of fed into my lack of interest in it. But it definitely feels like I don't know.

00:12:18

Dustin Zick

Store brand Goodfellas or Dollar dollar Tree Goodfellas kind of in a way and and not in it.

00:12:24

Alex

Dr. Kib, good fellows.

00:12:25

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah.

00:12:29

Dustin Zick

Sierra missed Goodfellas or whatever. Not even Dr. Pibb is too mainstream. It's like ah ah Mr.

00:12:36

Killer Kyle

Mm hmm.

00:12:37

Dustin Zick

Mr. Soda Goodfellas or something. Yeah, it just felt like it it just it didn't feel interesting. It didn't seem compelling. I didn't feel like any of the characters were like super interesting. It was fun. Like I love Harvey Cattel. Like watching him young on screen is like cool and compelling. But other than that, it just didn't it didn't do it for me. Like I'd say of everything we've watched for this podcast so far, this was the one that like was the most uninteresting to me.

00:13:09

Alex

Kyle, tell us where you're at, my friends.

00:13:12

Killer Kyle

yeah. So and I like the phrase you used Alex, the confidence of the, of the, of the filmmaking so early on in Scorsese's career. I don't disagree that it was very confident. However, it reminds me of the confidence that like a 22 year old has.

00:13:35

Killer Kyle

where they're like, look at this, look at this shit. I'm great at this, I'm amazing. Couple drinks in me, feeling fantastic. And I got that vibe, you know, it was like, it's interesting because I see how Scorsese has evolved his use of music and how many other directors and and filmmakers in general can use music to to great effect. And this felt like this felt like the the movie was trying to let the music that do more of the work than it should have, and maybe even replace some of the work. Or to to put it another way, you know Scorsese loves New York City, as many many many filmmakers do.

00:14:32

Killer Kyle

And so there was a little bit of, oh, you are, as I'm watching this, I'm thinking you're enamored with and maybe intrigued by the world of gangsters and wise guys and that type of, and this is even a little bit more adjacent to that at times, but like you're enamored with that. You love New York city and you love music and you decided to just put those all together and you kind of thought the elements that are inherently contained in those three things could only produce a good movie.

00:15:07

Killer Kyle

And I see what people are saying with the Goodfellas light stuff and you see how this can can lead there. I personally am a Goodfellas hater.

00:15:19

Dustin Zick

Hmm.

00:15:19

Killer Kyle

I i i The amount of times, this is one of those things with me and Scorsese, man, the amount of times that I've watched a Scorsese movie and it is known to be one of the better movies of all time as, as you know, would rate it and all these things.

00:15:32

Dustin Zick

And you're just like, wrong, wrong.

00:15:34

Killer Kyle

and i and And maybe I shouldn't know that going, I'm just like, what is what are we doing here? I just, like, I'm just, i there was, I don't know how long it was in the mean streets.

00:15:47

Killer Kyle

Maybe it was like 25, 30 minutes. And I was like, oh, no character is going to change.

00:15:55

Dustin Zick

who a

00:15:57

Killer Kyle

And that that to me, I think i don't think, I don't think you can lay that criticism on a lot of Scorsese movies, but to me, that's what I felt, is that I was just like, it felt like a like I was, I'm just watching a fishbowl, as opposed to me watching something take place that will,

00:16:17

Killer Kyle

either have an impact outside of the characters or have an impact for one of the characters or... Yeah, yeah I don't know.

00:16:28

Killer Kyle

i ah ah kind of like get know like I don't even know why Robert De Niro blew up that mailbox in the beginning. It just seemed like it was wanton destruction and that to me

00:16:37

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:16:41

Killer Kyle

almost feels like a metaphor for the whole movie of like, oh, well, blowing up a mailbox is inherently interesting, so we're just gonna we're gonna watch that. And like, I am arguably, I would watch someone blowing up a mailbox at any point.

00:16:49

Dustin Zick

Well, you did, you did.

00:16:56

Killer Kyle

I certainly did. But you know like it was it was it was another one of those movies where I'm like, okay, I get it. like Technically, I'm with it. And I can sort of understand its place in in film, especially with who Scorsese became.

00:17:17

Killer Kyle

But I am shocked that this is a movie that people would tell other people to see outside of a context of like a podcast.

00:17:25

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:17:26

Killer Kyle

You know what I mean? like i can't imagine you know and then i was like I recently had a friend watch The Godfather and he was like, yeah, it just wasn't that great. and like I can see why someone might say that, but I would really argue against it for a lot of reasons.

00:17:41

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:17:42

Killer Kyle

It's not like my top 10 or anything in movies, The Godfather, but like I would argue about that. I'd say, nah, there's there's here's the things going on that I appreciate. And now here's what I will say. This is something I will say about every single one of the movies we watched.

00:17:55

Killer Kyle

On top of the the the technical the technical abilities on display, especially at a for a young director, the acting is wonderful, right? Like I have the ability to be like, I don't care about any of these characters after watching them. That said, like the De Niro, Johnny Boy, the Harvey Keitel, these are you know like the actors themselves and the the the the lines delivered and the the the moments and like, that was all very good. So it's very bizarre to me to watch a movie that has really good music to heighten scenes, to heighten moments,

00:18:36

Killer Kyle

really good acting by people who then went on to do way more of that. You know, well shot, well, well cut, you know, I even liked the pacing. so You know, such as the events of the of the film were right. But like, there was never a I agree with you Justin that I i was i was struggling to get engaged. ah ah It was more of this news fest as it were not quite on the level of you know, the Phantom. But but you know, like I I just was like, why do I care about what's happening on screen despite the fact that it's being given to me in a very nice polished way?

00:19:04

Dustin Zick

It just, yeah.

00:19:11

Dustin Zick

Yeah, it's like it's I mean, ultimately, it's like the story just isn't interesting. It's not compelling kind of a thing. Like I think and I i echo, you know, that note of like, I can't see why.

00:19:25

Dustin Zick

and And to be fair, I don't feel like anybody, not that I know a lot of like film stops or anything, but I don't I don't feel like this movie pops up on like lists of, you know, like Best like gangster movies or whatever anything like that necessarily.

00:19:39

Dustin Zick

I think if you go a layer deeper it shows up I mean, I think it's I don't think anybody in their right mind would look at scrocese's Filmography and be like this is his best gangster movie like like you've got good fellows.

00:19:51

Killer Kyle

Again.

00:19:52

Dustin Zick

You've got departed you've got casino like there's there's all these other things that I think people would point to I think that This movie is I'm looking at the Wikipedia and it was inducted into the Library of Congress and the National Film Registry. That was in 97. So that was after Goodfellas and that was after Casino. And I think this movie, like if you're like, oh, yeah, you know, I had a Scorsese weekend and I watched Departed and I watched The Irishman and and I watched Casino and I watched fucking Goodfellas and they're so great. Then it's like, yeah, you should go back and watch this, too, because you can see

00:20:30

Dustin Zick

lips of some of that other stuff coming through and it's it's you know the story is the least compelling maybe of all of these movies but it's like you you can see where it kind of stems from and whatnot but yeah i mean i think for me like if i'm not into a story in a movie if i don't find the the narrative beats compelling uh all those other pieces are kind of worthless like you can appreciate them. you can't come out of the movie saying like, yeah, like, I would tell someone else to go watch this movie for me and in that in that scenario in this scenario. This was a hard movie to walk out of and think like,

00:21:09

Dustin Zick

Like, am I glad I saw it? Like, to do I mean, on on the surface, I don't feel like I waste my time watching it because we're doing it for the podcast and whatnot. But had I just like, had had I not been having it on for the podcast, I probably wouldn't have finished it.

00:21:25

Dustin Zick

I probably would have punched out halfway through and put on Goodfellas or something like that, honestly, because that's kind of what I felt like as someone who really likes Goodfellas, like watching this. I was like, I'd rather be watching Goodfellas or departed instead of this.

00:21:44

Alex

What's really funny about that is I i think I texted you guys that comment, you know, Mean Streets walks so good pillows could run when I was only a little bit into the movie.

Defending Mean Streets: A Character-driven Narrative

00:21:55

Dustin Zick

Okay.

00:21:55

Alex

And I have since, I'm excited to crack my knuckles, roll up my sleeves and give my, what I would say is

00:22:05

Dustin Zick

I just want to move on to the next but no, I'm kidding. Totally kidding.

00:22:10

Alex

Amazing, is a pretty enthusiastic defense of this movie, which which was my favorite of the three that that we watched.

00:22:15

Dustin Zick

Oh boy.

00:22:19

Dustin Zick

Wow.

00:22:20

Killer Kyle

What?

00:22:21

Killer Kyle

What are you saying?

00:22:22

Alex

with

00:22:22

Dustin Zick

I mean, to be to be fair, I didn't love any of these that much.

00:22:22

Killer Kyle

Continue speaking.

00:22:27

Dustin Zick

So I'm curious where your spectrum goes for the other two because it's all relative kind of a thing.

00:22:28

Alex

yeah and this

00:22:34

Alex

Sure, no. And I, you know, we'll get into our rankings in a bit. And I i did enjoy all three of these to varying degrees. Raging Bull, I found the most difficult sit, the most difficult experience to to get through. But, you know, to offer some counter perspectives to some of the critiques that both of you raised. You know, Dustin, you're talking about kind of the the lack of visual uh, interest kind of in this. And I just think about scenes like when they're in Tony's bar and it's got that like deep, deep, you know, red crimson that's just popping off the screen. and let me, let me even take a step back and start with, uh, I think this movie has a knockout of an opening sequence where you've got, Harvey Keitel kind of waking up from this nightmare.

00:23:31

Alex

with the Scorsese voiceover where he's talking about, you know, you don't make up for your sins in church, you make up for it in the street, you're panning through Charlie's apartment, you're seeing the central character conflict that's going to drive this movie, which is Charlie's conflict of faith.

00:23:52

Alex

And I agree that the narrative stakes here are very low. They're very in the background. But to me, the character stakes and the drama of is Charlie going to be brought down by his weird need to be a martyr for Johnny Boy's ticking time bomb of a character was really compelling. but back to the opening scene.

00:24:19

Alex

And then you've got the music, which I agree does...

00:24:23

Dustin Zick

i do I did love the soundtrack for this.

00:24:25

Alex

It does a lot of heavy lifting, but I think the way it's edited and the way it's paced with the rhythm of each scene is just so perfectly done that I was giddy watching it.

00:24:26

Dustin Zick

like i i

00:24:41

Alex

i I loved the, you know, you've got the Ronettes doing Be My Baby, set to that opening title montage, and it's the Super 8 footage of Charlie in Little Italy, like having these big life moments where there's there's a birthday party, there's a baptism, and there's just so much warmth and affection and camaraderie for these characters that Scorsese conveys with that kind of grainy Super 8 footage where It feels like you're watching home movies. And I think this movie is really strong as it's a hangout movie. It reminded me of something like American Graffiti where, you know, you're just hanging with these guys. You're seeing their their slice of life. And i I enjoyed all that. I loved the scenes at at Tony's bar where you're seeing Johnny Boy and Charlie

00:25:37

Alex

kind of riffing and shooting the shit and going back and forth about why Johnny Boy doesn't have the money to pay Michael. And there's an organicness to that scene and the way it unfolds where you're just watching these two great young actors kind of riff and kind of improv with each other. And I found that electric and really, really compelling to watch.

00:26:01

Alex

And I did struggle a little bit in the first third with those that lack of narrative stakes and that lack of, you know, what is the momentum really driving this forward? And I think it started to get more stakes and more urgency when we meet Charlie's Uncle Giovanni at the restaurant. And it's revealed that Charlie wants to be you know, in his mind, a big shot and open up this restaurant that's going to be frequented by all the gangsters in his relationship with Teresa, who's the the woman he's in love with, seeing who is revealed as epileptic. And I think there's compelling drama there with Uncle Giovanni considering her a social pariah for having epilepsy and, you know,

00:26:52

Alex

kind of saying that Charlie should have nothing to do with her. And I find that taking time bomb of Johnny's character was compelling to me.

00:27:02

Alex

I think De Niro's fantastic as that character. He's got this crazy-eyed charisma. Talking about the music and the scenes, I've gone back in YouTube and watched the entrance where Johnny Boy walks into the bar with the Rolling Stones' Jumpin' Jack Flash, like five or six times, because I think it's just a perfectly edited and paced scene.

00:27:09

Killer Kyle

Thank you.

00:27:26

Alex

I feel similarly about Dropkick Murphy's in The Departed, where I freaking love that intro because of how well the music syncs up with the action.

00:27:31

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

00:27:36

Alex

And with this scene, I just love the way the music syncs up with with the stones, with the slow motion, with the character dynamics, where Charlie's monologue even says like you know something like, gee, I ask for like salvation, and then he walks into my bar or something.

00:27:57

Alex

So you've got Tony's bar basically being this version of hell for Charlie's character with the the glowing red and representing like the temptation of this life of crime that's pulling away from his relationship with God. And I did find some of that stuff a little, a little Navy service level, a little cliche, like the mobster with a crisis of face faith, but I thought there was so much, they just felt genuine and real about Charlie as a character that I, you know, I bought it even if I had seen those, those beats before in other movies. I love the way it portrayed Little Italy where I just enjoyed hanging out in those spaces. I loved hanging out in that pool hall where the brawl happens.

00:28:46

Alex

there's this great shot where the camera kind of pulls back and you see all the lights of little Italy and you see it's just this narrow strip in, you know, the islands of Manhattan and New York. and I appreciate what that characterized, what that characterization does for, this movie and these characters where it's like they are so steeped in their little bubble that going to Brooklyn at the end when they're trying to flee,

00:29:13

Alex

you know, feels like they're going off the edge of the earth. So I just loved the way that this is a hangout movie where a character and action, you know, are a little little looser. They're not driving with that, you know, crazy thumping beat that a movie like The Departed has. But yeah, I just loved relishing in the crafts that Scorsese employs here. and You know, even though these guys are kind of low-time hoods and kind of losers with a grandi's self-importance, I enjoyed hanging out with him and I enjoyed hanging out with this movie.

00:29:54

Killer Kyle

It's interesting that you, I think something that, like when you when you when you mentioned The Departed or whatever, like there is a sense of, and obviously it's a much different movie with much different film, narrative, all that stuff, but like there's this sense of,

00:30:11

Killer Kyle

I can't think of the exact word i'm trying I'm trying to think, I mean, I'm trying to think of, but it's it's just, I am always on edge in The Departed. but like I'm on edge in this way where I'm like, what is gonna happen next?

00:30:25

Dustin Zick

Hmm.

00:30:25

Killer Kyle

And I think that if this movie had that, I would i would have just ah have really liked it a lot more because it it kind of felt like, I think this is something of them that actually,

00:30:42

Killer Kyle

kind of kind of think all three of these movies for me kind of lacked a little bit. It's just that level of tension that keeps me really locked in.

00:30:54

Killer Kyle

and yeah i mean there was always There was always that we could get into a fight, someone could do something crazy, and then everyone's going to be fighting again. They destroyed 17 bars in this movie.

00:31:05

Killer Kyle

But yeah, i just i didn't like the tension there, even with a character like a Johnny Boy, who's supposed to be you know kind of this big wild card in a lot of ways, I just didn't have that tension when it came to a lot of when it came to a lot of it. So I mean, I see what you're saying about like the hangout and the the kid like just kind of watching them do their thing. It was it was enjoyable. I mean, you know, that's that's the internal character struggle there with with Harvey Keitel and stuff. But yeah, just like without that tension, like I couldn't go from scene to scene and really just really invest. So i get i get I get what you're saying about about those things. And there are some some nice moments.

00:31:49

Killer Kyle

when especially when it comes to the music. There's definitely some nice moments when it comes to the music. But yeah, for me, this is like, I'm happy I watched it because I think it is, I mean, just like, I don't know, I'm i'm happy I watched it like I'm happy I've listened to some Beethoven and some Mozart, you know what I mean? like you gotta ah ah You gotta engage with the art, you know what I mean?

00:32:09

Killer Kyle

And and i and I think it's Scorsese is someone that can make incredible movies. And so there's really anyone who's done that consistently a couple of times. I think it's merited to see almost anything they do.

00:32:22

Killer Kyle

But yeah.

00:32:25

Killer Kyle

Yeah. and

00:32:30

Killer Kyle

YouTube TV?

00:32:32

Dustin Zick

Alex?

00:32:33

Alex

Yeah, i think I think Amazon Prime, I think I rented it for a couple of bucks and watched it that way.

00:32:37

Dustin Zick

Okay. So I pulled it.

00:32:38

Alex

What about you?

00:32:39

Dustin Zick

used Hoopla, the the streaming program, like your library probably has access to. I know Alex yours does because we have the same library. Well, the county library system.

00:32:50

Dustin Zick

I'm kind of wondering, I'm not that it would have dramatically changed my experience, but i'm I mean, like the version, like ah looking it up, it sounds like there's like a four like criterion did a 4K restoration.

00:33:04

Dustin Zick

It's probably not what was streaming or no 4K. yes 4k did a start criterion did a 4k restoration and blu-ray almost a year ago to the date i'm just wondering if uh the version that I streamed was like a lower like just HD versus like uh you know like a lower resolution version because it was it was pretty beat up yeah it does sound like a lot of releases of this just use the original mono track which isn't necessarily a bad thing

00:33:30

Alex

show just in terms of clarity.

00:33:41

Dustin Zick

Uh, but I'm just wondering if like the version I had was pretty rough. so I wonder if that maybe contributed a little bit to my visual dissatisfaction with it.

00:33:51

Dustin Zick

Just the way like style, not stylistically, like the way it literally looked on screen just was not great. I wonder if that factored in a little bit, but yeah.

00:34:00

Alex

Sure. That's interesting. Yeah, because I wonder if your version was slightly maybe muddier or less crisp than the you know the the other versions that could be out there.

00:34:08

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

00:34:12

Alex

That's really interesting.

00:34:12

Killer Kyle

I could, yeah. That could be, that could have had a bigger effect because it's a very dark movie, visually like it's, yeah.

00:34:14

Alex

and

00:34:17

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah.

00:34:19

Alex

Totally. One thing I'm curious about for both of you guys is how you thought about some of those scenes that feel a little bit more removed from the rest of the plot. Because I totally agree with your your point, Kyle, about this lacking that kind of, you know, sense of tension you do get from something like The Depart There, they're even good fellas.

00:34:41

Alex

but for me that was another thing that was a feature rather than a bug of these scenes that were kind of these little vignettes of 1970s life in little Italy where for example we get that scene where they go to their buddy acquaintance who's a Vietnam vet and he kind of freaks out and attacks that that waitress or other patron I'm not sure what her deal is but you know I thought that was very kind of

00:35:11

Alex

poignant and surprising and almost like a little mini story happening in itself. I also really cracked up at the scene where Michael scams those two kids who are trying to buy fireworks and you know basically just pockets their 20, which should have been 40, but they take the 20 and they're like, oh, let's go see a movie. You could have removed any of those scenes from the film and it wouldn't have impacted the the overall plot, but I enjoyed the texture they added, and I'm just curious if, you know, what you guys made of those scenes that almost felt a little bit more isolated from the rest of the plot, such that there was a plot. It's a pretty plotless movie.

00:35:56

Dustin Zick

I barely remember those scenes. So I think that speaks to just how like checked out I was from this. yeah, I think I, I mean, the, the fireworks one I remember, which I think I can see why that would be if if in your case, Alex, where you enjoyed this movie, I can see why that is like part of the broader picture because you're kind of viewing it as more of a I think wait it sounds like what you enjoyed about this is this.

00:36:26

Dustin Zick

more like slice-of-life perspective. and like i mean that's kind of really i think what is ultimately you know what Kyle, what you were saying about like that lack of tension i think comes from the fact that like when I think of good fellows when I think of Departed at to at the you know to just overly compare to like other gangster movies that Scorsese has done. Even The Irishman, which i I think The Irishman fails in this regard to, like this one does, where like there is no... you know Departed for me is like...

00:37:03

Dustin Zick

the the central tension is these two rats on both sides of the ah ah law enforcement criminal thing and and that happening. Goodfellas is him, you know you know how it's going to end and so like everything that leads to that and and what happened, you know it just ratchets all the way up. But the Irishman and this are just kind of like the Irishman is like a long winded version of this in terms of like the the chronology it covers.

00:37:29

Dustin Zick

And this is just like yeah, like this is just like their existence. There's not any like anything It feels like the kind of thing where you could have like rewound or fast-forwarded like five years in their lives and assuming one of them didn't get killed from some errant thing happening or another that what happened here could have happened five years later or five years before and but I mean, I know like Johnny Boise yeah excusing those logistics kind of a thing that it just was like, yeah, this is just, you know, this window of time. And for me, like there are movies that show that that are actually really galvanizing and fascinating and enjoyable, but this just felt like.

00:38:12

Dustin Zick

I don't care kind of a thing. And so like those moments that are outside of the central story arc they're trying to tell, however thin that is, feel even less relevant and less poignant. It's more like, why why are you wasting my time? like Give me these couple minutes back and like get back to the the larger story that you're trying to tell.

00:38:35

Alex

Yeah, that's a fair read. Kyle, where you are you at?

00:38:39

Killer Kyle

Yeah, I mean, it is and like I said, add it to the list of the Dustin Kyle Agreement. you know it's it's it's very i If i'm trying to be I'm trying to really put myself in your viewing shoes, Alex, I see why those scenes provide that kind of color and that kind of extra fabric to the weave of this.

00:39:13

Alex

There's also a lightness to them and a levity that you don't always get in other Scorsese movies that I enjoyed.

00:39:20

Killer Kyle

It's true, it is true. But yeah, they just they didn't land for me because I wasn't really into the characters. And so

00:39:31

Killer Kyle

that's That to me is that to me is is really what it is. like for those For those scenes, for me to land, to have them be like removed from the the narrative of the plot or the kind of the flow of the movie, I guess maybe is a better way to put it. I really have to i want to see what the like I want to be interested in the character enough to see how they react in this totally different area yeah of the world.

00:40:05

Killer Kyle

and Yeah, it it just doesn't it doesn't land for me because I have not seen anything in the characters so far in the movie when a lot of those scenes happen where I am intrigued or think of them, you know, I think they try to accomplish it with Harvey Keitel's character, you know, sort of the multi-dimensionality. But I mean, ultimately, I don't think it works. And so

00:40:39

Killer Kyle

It's more, those scenes are more like, this is just what this fish looks like. And like, no matter what barrel they put them in, the fish stays the same. and And so, yeah, they just kind of lacked the punch because for me, they didn't They didn't tease anything out of the characters that I didn't already know. And in a lot of ways, like this movie is just about like New York and this world. And so it's weird to have those, it's a little weird to have those scenes when I don't feel like, I don't know, they they they they actually felt out of place

00:41:24

Killer Kyle

Even though I did appreciate like the, I mean, just in terms of the levity and the breaking up of of some stuff. Like you said, I did appreciate that taking the kids' money and going to the movies type of thing.

00:41:35

Killer Kyle

But there's a bizarre sense of nihilism in this in this movie that I think makes the opening scene feel a little hollow to me, or just not fully realized, I guess. I don't know. that Like you said, that that character drama that that Charlie's character is having, it didn't have enough body to it for me to be interested in some of those offshoots as much as as you were.

00:42:03

Killer Kyle

yeah

00:42:05

Alex

No, totally. I think that's that's fair.

Raging Bull: Technical Brilliance vs. Character Challenges

00:42:08

Alex

And this might be a good pivot to talk about engaging with characters and get into Raging Bull because, yeah, this was such an interesting watch for me. I think because I've heard for so long about the heavyweight, you know, critical uh reception this movie has received in like the towering place it holds in cinema where one of the best movies of the 80s uh one of Scorsese's all-time masterpieces and I really struggled uh with with uh Jay Plamata as a protagonist and I struggled to spend two hours with him even with the

00:42:56

Alex

technical mastery that Scorsese brings as a director and that Dronera brings as a performer. And I think this might be one of those things where this is a reflection of where I'm at as just a member of the film-going audience where I don't know if I need another masterpiece about toxic masculinity and about, like, you know, this kind of, you know, a jealous, abusive asshole. Like, there's, there's so much pathos and depth being wrung out of this character. And, you know, not this character, this real human being, because this is based on Jake Lamotta's autobiography. And it's just so

00:43:43

Alex

beautifully wrought but i just fucking hated spending so much time with this with this guy and you know he creates this prison for himself and we can kind of analyze it as a character study we can analyze its technical achievements which are are many you know i loved the look of this i love the sound design those fights were brutal and beautifully edited and i kind of

00:44:06

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

00:44:09

Alex

I loved watching them and I love the idea that each fight is more of a reflection of Jake's psychological state in that moment than they are like, you know, a sports drama where you're invested in the outcome. It's really, what does the fight reveal about Jake's character? I really appreciated and liked that. But yeah, I i wrestled with this one and would love to hear what you guys think before we get into kind of the nitty gritty.

00:44:39

Killer Kyle

Yeah, I mean, this is this is my this was my experience when I watched it the first time as well. you know I was like, I turned it on and it started. And pretty quickly I was like, oh yeah, this is just a movie where he kicks the shit out of everyone around him, including, geez, look at this guy, including and like just all the women and all like and and and and all the men. I mean, it it just like, it was there was never,

00:45:09

Killer Kyle

Like I understand the fighting scenes and I think there's something, you know, and this is, this is just going to be one of those moments where I'm just at this disconnect with Scorsese, where he finds these pockets inherently interesting to himself. And sometimes when we're aligned, it's incredible, right? Like it's amazing. And then, and the one in this movie is, is fighters. And I think,

00:45:36

Killer Kyle

I think similar to New York, Los Angeles, movies about movies, there's these things that like movie people tend to gravitate to as something that because of, and I think about like the wrestler and I think about like a million dollar baby and I think about all the warrior. There's something about a fighter character that a lot of people find inherently interesting because they can't, they they just can't imagine that someone would want to do that.

00:46:04

Killer Kyle

for their life. and For me, I have that with climbers. I don't climb because I find that i don't for the sake for the same reason I don't bungee jump. I don't i don't i don't climb.

00:46:18

Killer Kyle

leaving out the athletic abilities required for that activity. I don't do it. and But that said, I will watch every climbing documentary I can get my hands on.

00:46:30

Killer Kyle

I will watch movies about climbers. I will i will watch i will watch movies about people climbing Everest.

00:46:36

Alex

Mm-hm.

00:46:37

Killer Kyle

I've literally watched 15 documentaries on people climbing Everest because I'm like, what is the deal with these people, man? And I think that's something about about fighters that I think Scorsese was interested in with Lamada. You know like he you read this book, and I've never i've never read the book. i'd be I'd actually be curious to read it, because I don't think it would, it probably wouldn't take that long, or and and i maybe get some more insight into this character. But like it just the character lacked depth. It was much more of just like a lightning bolt through through the narrative of you know this is what's going to happen, and he's going to destroy all the people around him. And because of that, there wasn't really any surprises.

00:47:13

Killer Kyle

didn't think they they did enough with the throwing of the fight scene. you know I know that when he throws it, like he's throwing the fight in the in the ring. like the way that that looks is obviously like The way that that looks is not how you would want a fight where someone is throwing it to look. It doesn't look good. Things don't you know things don't go well on the back end type of thing. But like that's the moment.

00:47:35

Killer Kyle

that I really wanted more from to kind of, and I mean, what are you, you're working with an autobiography. So it's not like you're making up a character that you can necessarily move in the way that you find most interesting, but I just thought it was, I thought it was wild how,

00:47:49

Killer Kyle

how much time you spend with the character in all these moments. And there's this big moment where he's being asked to throw a fight. And he does. And it just, I don't know, that should have been a much bigger part of that character's kind of downfall or what, interesting I don't know. But the amount of time, yeah, the toxic ma masculinity stuff, I think, I don't even know if it would have been profound then, you know what I mean? like there was just A lot of that stuff going on and in in ah in a way that's just difficult to watch. I think about like when I go back to like The Hustler and how how much I love The Hustler, but how that's also a movie from that time where a man is just kicking the shit out of a woman constantly. and it's it's just it's It's difficult to watch. It's also difficult to watch kind of knowing that it's coming.

00:48:39

Killer Kyle

You know what I mean? Like when he starts to go down one of those holes of like, oh, what's she with? Who's she been with? What are you saying? Why did you say that thing? Why did you say it this way? Yada, yada, yada. Again, like De Niro's acting is incredible. Pesci is great. Every character is is executing their there there their acting job phenomenally.

00:49:00

Killer Kyle

But it's just another one where I don't care, and I almost want it to end when he goes to jail, but then he comes back out and more terrible stuff is done by the guy, and he's just sad. like It's just very, very, very sad without really any moment of redemption. That's what it is. There's not a moment of redemption at all, like not even a hint of one. And so I think it is it is a difficult ask.

00:49:26

Killer Kyle

to watch someone destroy themselves over the course of 30, 40 years and two over two hours. No matter how beautifully some scenes are shot, no matter how great the acting is, I think it's it's a tough watch. And I don't understand. I think there's something to those fight scenes that we don't have an ability to understand viscerally. We can understand it intellectually as to why they were such a technical achievement.

00:49:55

Killer Kyle

but because of what we have available but have what have had available to us for most of our lives in terms of like. Graphics and and and and i don't know just the way action scenes are shot i just think there's something that we can access because it wasn't new to us when we saw it you know me so.

00:50:12

Dustin Zick

i I kind of disagree with that last night.

00:50:13

Killer Kyle

yeah

00:50:15

Dustin Zick

I feel like I can't think of another, I mean, not that I have a, I haven't seen any of the Rocky movies. I've seen scenes, clips from the Rocky movies, but I haven't seen any Rocky movies start to finish.

00:50:28

Dustin Zick

But I feel like the way these fight scenes were shot, like, This if I mean it I I can't think of anything else like it like it it's it's You know like because I was like, oh, you know Like my first blush on that piece of it was like ah ah like why does this feel so different in such a cool way? And my first thought was like, oh, well, they're not doing you know Like the jump cuts and stuff that they do but there's plenty of jump cuts in there like it's jumping around quite a bit it's just presented in a way that feels

00:51:00

Dustin Zick

very isolating. like i feel I feel like the way that it's it's filmed is like you feel like you're very present in the ring with De Niro and whoever he's boxing in a way that is like you're not you're not present as a as an audience member who's dropped down with a camera, like you might be in Will Smith's Solly movie or something like that. like It literally feels like you're standing in the ring like the ref would be or whatever, like seeing these hits happen and things like that.

00:51:34

Alex

I thought that was really effective too, the the claustrophobia you feel during those scenes.

00:51:38

Dustin Zick

Yeah, because you can you know like the this the background's all kind of covered in smoke and whatnot. And it kind of takes you in. like Even the sound is like the the audience cheers are like muted when they're when they're showing that action in the ring. And in and a couple of scenes when they like cut to stuff happening ringside, and like it's louder and whatnot.

00:52:02

Dustin Zick

that That's my dovetail to say. like I agree with everything you just said, Kyle, as far as like the story goes. like i found i i I liked this the most out of the three because I found the boxing sequences to be absolutely beautiful and just like so fantastic to watch. like I wish the whole movie was that.

00:52:26

Dustin Zick

found The character to be abhorrent and uninteresting and and to your point there's There's no redemption arc or anything I mean i'm thinking back to to five easy pieces and like I think you know, I can't remember I think kyle you didn't care for that but alex and I did if I recall correctly and I think for me

00:52:45

Killer Kyle

No.

00:52:48

Alex

Yep.

00:52:50

Dustin Zick

You know what I liked about what what I liked to hate about that was that nicolson's character in that He never he never gets redemption. He's not deserving of it But there's multiple points where it feels like he's about to do something even even Minutly redeeming and then he like goes the opposite direction And there was none of that here at all with lamada like he was just a piece of shit through and through like and and and the fact that like you know, the story is not told entirely chronal chronologically. So we get this clips of him, you know, 10, 15 years down the road when he's the nightclub owner and stuff like that. And you can still like he's he's still a piece of shit, but he's like just out of shape and like full of himself pieces. You know what I mean? Like the fact that we see that fast forward inter spliced in periodically just tells you that like, yeah, he's not going to get any better. He's not going to like learn his lesson. And then we, we see that

00:53:52

Dustin Zick

come through multiple times when he's beating up on his wife and then he goes to apologize and she like acquiesces and whatnot either well not so much his original life but the the young one and that's I mean cliche and sadly true to life I feel like for many people but like that's false redemption, right? We know we know when we see that that's bullshit and that he's lying, but there's not even any other experiential kind of thing where you see like, oh, is he gonna, you know, is he gonna redeem himself or is he gonna get, you know, a true, is he redeeming himself just by seeing the error of his ways or is he gonna be knocked down

00:54:36

Dustin Zick

Literally or figuratively so hard that he like understands he needs to come up with a different approach and even when he like goes to jail and shit like that you still There's it's not hard enough of a fall for him to like Feel the need to change his path. And so I yeah, I found Yeah, of these three, like this, like like I had said at the beginning, like this was probably the one that I was like most interested to watch because I felt like I was missing something.

00:55:05

Dustin Zick

And and visually speaking, I'm glad I did because I can't think of any other movie that feels this way and in the black. Like I love the choice to have it all in black and white, except for some of those colorized sequences when they're, you know, living their lives or whatever, which I thought was kind of fun and and took me out of it for a second.

00:55:26

Dustin Zick

Yeah, yeah. um Like I think the black and white was such a brilliant choice for this because it it paints it as a period piece in a different way. And it looks just gorgeous, but yeah.

00:55:40

Alex

Yeah, talking about like visual texture, it's it's off the chain in this movie, the way that you can like see the the blood and the sweat and all the way that all that looks in that monochrome black and white is just so freaking cool.

00:55:53

Dustin Zick

Yeah. and And I mean, as a theme with Mean Streets, as you put it, Kyle, like the everybody's, you know, firing on all cylinders performance wise, like just phenomenal. Like no, no notes. I thought Pesci was fucking brilliant. Like everything, like just amazing.

00:56:11

Alex

Yeah, nominated for Best Supporting Actor for this movie.

00:56:11

Dustin Zick

be

00:56:14

Alex

Didn't get it, but deserved the nod.

00:56:16

Dustin Zick

Yeah, speaking of performances, though I want to give myself credit. I spotted a young John Turturro. This was his f first film role. He had a non-speaking part earlier on in the movie when they're at a party.

00:56:32

Dustin Zick

And, uh, Lamada goes to sit at a table and sees his soon to be wife, uh, Vicki across the room or whatever. John Turturro was sitting at the table and I was like, is that that fucking John Turturro? And sure enough, so I mean, he was on screen for 20 seconds, didn't say a word or anything. And I was like, I saw him, I noted it. And I found it on Wikipedia and I was like, yeah, hell yeah. Like I knew I recognized him. Uh, but yeah, like it's, it's.

00:57:03

Dustin Zick

It's more frustrating for me when you watch a movie where you're like, yeah, everybody is doing not just their best work.

00:57:07

Alex

Thank you.

00:57:11

Dustin Zick

They're truly doing phenomenal work. And then visually it looks phenomenal. But there's just like, no, there's nobody to root for here. There's nobody to like care about in this story.

00:57:21

Dustin Zick

And, and. And if you're going to have a a story that is absent of a protagonist to root for, then you have to have an antagonist that is at least surprising in some ways. And I feel like that's kind of what Jack Nicholson was in Five Easy Pieces for me, is that like I thought, like I said, i I thought multiple times, oh, he's going to like show that he has a little bit of a heart or a soft side. But there is none of that here. And you know,

00:57:54

Dustin Zick

Jake Lamotta being the focus of it. It's like it's anybody else that could have had a more positive arc is, you know, kind of outshined by that. I'm I don't have any interest in reading a book, but like I'm really curious, like how accurate this is to the book, because it's a pretty damning portrait of oneself. And so if he felt uh comfortable putting pen to paper to tell this story of himself that's interesting to me to know if he you know how he perceived himself when he wrote this of like yeah like i was a fuck up and i did this shit

00:58:39

Dustin Zick

and like let me just speak truth to it or is he like this is just how I like this is the role I had to be like live with it or whatnot kind of a thing. I don't know but that's kind of interesting to me to think about the fact that he wrote the book this is based on.

00:58:58

Killer Kyle

that's that's where

00:58:58

Alex

Yeah.

00:58:59

Killer Kyle

That's why yes i reading it is is like an like something I'm interested in. is because like oh Maybe the redemption is there. Maybe the self-reflection is there.

00:59:03

Dustin Zick

yeah

00:59:05

Killer Kyle

Maybe the maybe the the moments of clarity or understanding are there. and I kind of think because he spent his life getting the shit kicked out of him that it's unlikely. that the book was chosen as a way to continue to capitalize on the fame he had because he was broke.

00:59:16

Dustin Zick

Uh-huh.

00:59:21

Killer Kyle

This is my this is all a hunch. But that's that's kind of, you know, like it doesn't... Yeah, I don't know. And I think that, you know, those those scenes where he's talking to himself before he's going to go on stage really hit home the like lack of self-awareness that this guy has.

00:59:42

Killer Kyle

And the only time we even get anywhere close to that is when he's punching the wall in the jail and crying.

00:59:43

Alex

Yeah.

00:59:48

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

00:59:49

Killer Kyle

So yeah.

00:59:50

Alex

I mean, that's that's when you get that self-hatred and that self-flagellation that you see him acting out in the ring throughout the rest of the movie. And I've been trying to kind of see this movie through the way that some other other critics, other commenters have appreciated it.

01:00:11

Alex

and The things I keep seeing people comments on are the ways that the boxing scene, kind of like how I mentioned earlier, the ways that the boxing scenes reflects where Jake is at emotionally. And to me, that still felt a little thin and insubstantial. We're talking about, you know, how do you like a How do you engage with a movie protagonist? And I don't think I need my protagonist to be likable or it needs to be someone who has a redemption or even has like a moral arc in the sense of learning a lesson. But you guys have both made some really good points. There needs to be gestures at movement and momentum.

01:01:04

Alex

You know, there needs to be surprise and intrigue, like you were saying, Dustin, with Jack Nicholson and Five Easy Pieces. For me, it's important to have there be some kind of peeling back of the onion, where I feel like different scenes are showing me different facets of that character and where I'm getting a greater understanding of their their depth.

01:01:27

Alex

and I think the ways that this movie tries to accomplish that are with scenes like you have De Niro in the kitchen with Pesci and with his second wife and Vicky is saying how his opponent is such, you know, he's a pretty boy and that ignites his jealousy and you know from that moment where it's going to end up And the dramatic tension is released when he beats the shit out of that guy in the in the ring and bloodies his face.

01:02:05

Alex

And you've got the mobster saying to the other mobster, you know, he's not so pretty anymore. And, you know, that's kind of a way where you see that dramatic beat played out in the ring, but it still felt, yeah, just thin and a little bit one note in terms of like, okay,

01:02:10

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:02:26

Alex

this guy is really jealous and he doesn't know how to process his emotions. The only way he can process his feelings is by beating the shit out of other, other people, whether that's opponents in the ring or, you know, his, his loved ones, his, uh, his spouse, his, his brother. and I appreciate the, the craftsmanship and the intent, but, to me, it just lacks that.

01:02:52

Alex

that depth, that that turning the gem or peeling back the onion where you get a different facet of this character, it's like, nope, you know, he' he's acting out his jealousy and it's being portrayed in this really nuanced, poignant way, but the emotions that it's analyzing are still one note.

01:03:13

Killer Kyle

Yeah, and and Scorsese seems to really like self destructive characters, like in general, you know what I mean? There's there's a there's a lot there's a lot of that. But I think the more he does, the more interesting those characters become, generally speaking, you know, on his on his filmography. And luckily, he was working with great people to begin with, and he continued to work with great people his whole career, he still does. So yeah,

01:03:40

Killer Kyle

Yeah, just and again, I think it is interesting. like I'd love to see this movie without anyone telling me that it's one of the greatest movies ever made. You know what I mean? I'm never going to get it. But it's one of the reasons I don't really watch previews. You know what I mean? I don't want edit just want as little information as possible when I start a movie.

01:03:56

Killer Kyle

and and Yeah.

01:04:01

Alex

Yeah, I will say I definitely want to rewatch this at some point.

01:04:01

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:04:05

Alex

I'm probably going to wait a minute, but and there are just times when you're not on a movie's wavelength. And I think there's enough, like visual brilliance, acting technical achievement to warrant to revisit this and maybe I'll come away.

01:04:20

Alex

even more frustrated and kind of repulsed by what I see on screen. Maybe it'll click more, but I think it's definitely one that I'm excited to revisit in a minute because it is it is a rough sit. But i'm glad I'm glad we got into it.

King of Comedy: A Unique Scorsese Experience

01:04:38

Alex

Should we pivot to our third and final De Niro Scorsese collaboration with King of Comedy?

01:04:46

Killer Kyle

yes do it

01:04:47

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:04:48

Alex

Yeah. And I, um, I like this a lot. This was another, uh, uncomfortable set. But for me, it was kind of delightfully uncomfortable. It was cringe, cringe cinema of the highest caliber, where, I just, I really, I felt that tension, that was lacking in some of those other movies for me, or at least in in Mean Streets. And I'll, you know, I'll collect more of my my thoughts on what I enjoyed about this, but just broad surface level gut reaction reading, Dustin and Kyle, whether you think a king's a comedy, king of comedy.

01:05:34

Dustin Zick

I This is one that I feel like I want to rewatch at some point because I didn't love it. I didn't hate it I found it I'm not a big Jerry Lewis fan. So like that kind of draws on me though I feel I mean to hit to be fair to him He is like not Jerry Lewis in this movie like he's very like not the Jerry Lewis that always annoyed me seeing like the original Nutty Professor and stuff like that.

01:06:06

Dustin Zick

I actually I shouldn't even say that that because I thought he did a really good job in this. Yeah, I find it i like i I thought the idea was really good, like in I think De Niro turned in a great performance.

01:06:22

Dustin Zick

But I'll leave it at that for now. Kyle, what did what was your first your top level of thoughts?

01:06:27

Killer Kyle

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, man. I i like this movie, certainly it turned in the most of the three. it was one that I thought I had seen, but I had not.

01:06:39

Killer Kyle

Uh, and I honestly, I think I thought I had seen it because of the bizarre, uh, standup comedy stuff that Jake LaMotta does. I think I had kind of conflated those, some of those aspects in my head, the past, but I, had yeah, so I had not seen this at all.

01:06:50

Dustin Zick

Uh-huh.

01:06:54

Killer Kyle

So this is a total blind spot really. I mean, I appreciated it. i i i liked and so I thought the story was interesting. And I did feel that tension I didn't really feel in the other two movies that kind of kept me there wondering what would happen next. I thought it, you know, like there was I almost wish the character was a little bit better at being sneaky about trying to get in with Jerry Lewis. Do you know what I mean? I guess I just wish that there was a little bit more...

01:07:31

Killer Kyle

savviness to that character in that scene where you know they conspired to have someone get into the car and he's talking to all the receptionists and he's having the conversations with the the programming people and I wanted a little bit more from there because I guess it never Yeah, I liked this movie. i I liked watching it. I thought it was interesting. I thought i really didn't know. very I mean, i don't um don't even know if I've seen any Jerry Lewis movies or any Jerry Lewis, like i very little familiarity there. i do I do agree. I think the acting was very good. I think he was very good. I think De Niro was good in this. You know, I will say though, like, that's my, those are my, those are my stuff of thoughts. and Then we'll hear more from Alex and I'll go more into De Niro.

01:08:21

Alex

Yeah, you know, I am. I have also no real relationship with with Jerry Lewis and but I kind of got the character that Jerry Langford, you know, his his analog in this film world is supposed to be. It's you know, it's a Johnny Carson. It's it's a Jay Leno. Like, you know, I liked how kind of oily he was. He's kind of like, you know, just a little bit greasy, just a little bit slimy, like, you know, interpersonally as a talk show host, I feel like that was effective. I think he did a great job at showing how kind of miserable the view is from the top.

01:09:04

Alex

and how he has all these things that Rupert Pumpkin is pursuing so single-mindedly.

01:09:05

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:09:11

Alex

And he's clearly not a happy guy. And, you know, clearly has a lot of like, you know, I just thought he communicated that well as an actor, his kind of disdain for his fans, his, you know, contempt at having to deal with all of these people and be up at the top.

01:09:33

Alex

And I think, I think De Niro's great here, and I think he's great at weaponizing his charisma to kind of create this like anti-charisma for this character. And he's just likable enough where he kind of fools, he fools all the people he interacts with initially for a couple of minutes, or he comes across like uh facsimile of a functioning human being where he's you know he's a little charismatic like yeah he's kind of needy and nervous and like a little off-putting but like he's okay he's likable and then those other characters see like the the depths of his delusion and the depths of his narcissism and they start becoming more and more revolted by him and that's kind of a trick that the movie

01:10:17

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:10:25

Alex

employed several with the the secretary in Jerry Langford's office, who he tries to kind of worm his way into and you know get a meeting with. I just thought that was very effective, that like slow reveal that the other characters have to like, wow, this guy is you know is not all there. And I think that was effective because of De Niro's how finely calibrated this performance was. And I think you really see that in, there's an early scene where we're cross-cutting between Rupert Pupkin's delusion of, you know, his fantasy of what it would be like to be best buddies with with Jerry Langford and go out to dinner with him and Jerry's confiding in him and Jerry's like, you know, like, you know, only you can like know my material and

01:11:19

Alex

When he's with Jerry in the fantasy scenes, he's a genero that we all know and love. He's like confident. He's charismatic. He's smiling. He's laughing. And when you cut back to Rupert Pumpkin in his mother's basement with the cardboard cutouts, his laugh is way too big. His like eyes are kind of wild and nervous. um I just thought that was a great way of like contrasting, within one performance, how he perceives himself and how he actually comes across.

01:11:52

Alex

And I did think that those scenes where he's trying to infiltrate Langford's office were a little bit fatiguing in the way that we've talked about Scorsese-Cambi fatiguing when he's going all in on excess and like you know really trying to immerse you in

01:12:05

Dustin Zick

Mmm.

01:12:10

Alex

you know, how unlikable a character might be or and just, yeah, that there was a fatigue there that warned me a little bit. But I think once he kidnaps Jerry Langford, things pick up steam again. And I thought the tension of, is this guy a funny comedian or isn't he a funny comedian? You know, what is this set actually like? I thought that was really intriguing. And I thought it was kind of a very darkly funny reveal that his comedy, you know, he what the secretary terry told him was true. He's got decent chops. He's got good timing because he memorizes all this shit. But the content of his comedy is just, you know, boilerplate, abusive childhood. And he's kind of painfully average.

01:13:03

Alex

and I thought, again, that was another really darkly funny satirical joke that for all of his narcissism, all of his delusions, you know, this guy is not, you know, clearly a once in a generation talent.

01:13:18

Alex

And he doesn't want to work his way up from the bottom. He thinks he should just be able to leapfrog over everything. And that kind of makes him terrifying. You know, he's cut he's he's a he's a psychopath. He's a very scary character, but it's kind of hidden behind this hapless, nervous, you know, goofy guy. And I thought that was all really effective and darkly darkly funny.

01:13:43

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I feel like what what I find most compelling about De Niro's performance here, you kind of nailed it, is that like he clearly is delusional and we see that manifest in many ways. But like the way he presents and engages with people is like. So earnest and like that. Like it's it's almost like he I mean,

01:14:13

Dustin Zick

you wonder if he even realizes he's delusional. I mean, that, that seems like a weird question to ask, but like, does he even, he's, he but believes it all so much and like, and plays it through to the end, right? Like it's like, there's no, there's no break in his sanity. in terms of what's going on, even when he kidnaps Jerry Langford, like he, he,

01:14:40

Dustin Zick

maybe he understands like that things have transitioned or whatever, but we never really get like a clear view of that. and so yeah like his it's it's It's a different level of like like psychopathy that he's not outwardly malicious and even veiled by pretending to be a normal human or something.

01:15:06

Dustin Zick

I'm really stumbling on my words here, but I just, yeah, I think it was just like really compelling to see how he portrayed this character. I wouldn't call him likable. He's not necessarily likable. He's more annoying than anything, but he's not inherently unlikable, at least at first blush.

01:15:18

Alex

Right.

01:15:23

Dustin Zick

And he feels like He's affable enough that to your point alex that everybody he interacts with feels like oh if I just like Give him the time of day That's going to be enough to satiate him and obviously that is like the opposite of what you should be doing with him because giving him the time of day he thinks that you're telling him that you want to be bffs and and like cohabitate together and live together and all you know the the

01:15:49

Alex

Right. Right. that's That's Langford's mistake in the beginning that sets this whole thing off is that he does think, oh, by just engaging with him just a little bit, it'll satisfy him enough to go scurry off.

01:16:02

Dustin Zick

Yep.

01:16:02

Alex

And exactly the opposite happens.

01:16:03

Dustin Zick

Yeah. Yeah. I do think but something that was... a little jarring to like it took me like one or two times to like catch on to when the delusions were happening and he thought he was having the conversations with Langford because like they had him and like they're like the scene in Langford's office that was he was imagining where they're talking about him bringing his girlfriend or whatever to Langford's you know weekend house or whatever it is.

01:16:39

Dustin Zick

The fact that it was just presented as though it were another scene in the movie like there was no no cinematic flourishes to indicate that it was a Hallucination or a fantasy or whatever? took me like one or two times to realize oh, okay this like This isn't happening. They're obviously not engaging at this regard and I kind of quickly realized, like oh, like this this actually makes you know the whole thing feel even more unhinged because you're you're viewing these delusions in the same way that Pipkin or Pupkin is viewing these delusions as though they are wholly real and at equal authority and caliber of of genuineness to the rest of what's happening in the movie. And I thought that was kind of a ah brilliant way to do it, to just like

01:17:33

Dustin Zick

drop, you know, it's not just him talking to the cardboard cutout of of Jerry Lewis's character. It's like, no, like they're straight up moments where he thinks he's engaging.

01:17:44

Dustin Zick

And like that first one, when they're having the dinner, like I thought the break of that was really great. You know, you're cutting back and forth between Jerry Lewis and DeNiro talking, and then all of a sudden it's just DeNiro talking and just DeNiro talking.

01:17:58

Dustin Zick

And I thought that was really kind of a cool way to do that.

01:17:59

Alex

Right.

01:18:04

Alex

Yeah, I agree. And I think visually, I thought this movie was really strong. And I think it's an interesting counterpoint to both Mean Streets and Raging Bull, where the camera is always moving. It's always roving. It's always on the prowl in Mean Streets and to a lesser extent, Raging Bull. But here it's pretty static and fixed, and you like like it would be on a talk show. And so the the sets have to do a lot of the heavy lifting. And I thought the sets here were fantastic and just vibrant and colorful and whether you've got pumpkin in his basement or they're having the the dinner with the tied up Jerry Langford at Sandra Bernhardt's character, Masha, her house with all the candles, or the studio itself with those those crazy multicolored curtains. I just think really effective set design and

01:19:01

Alex

you know, intentional camera work that was different stylistically enough from those other two movies to, yeah, just make this feel fresh and different even if it was maybe less kinetic in its camera movements.

01:19:16

Killer Kyle

Yeah, for me, for me, these i like I this movie had the tension, like I mentioned, but I really didn't get I kind of had to piece together more than feel the danger of De Niro's character. And even after the kidnapping, I wasn't, I didn't think you the danger was there. So the tension wasn't really The tension for me wasn't really the danger of De Niro's character. It was more interested to see how all of the various pushes and pulls in play, especially after the kidnapping, when it's like, is the network going to air this? Are they going to acquiesce? Are they going to put it on?

01:20:05

Killer Kyle

And those scenes were very interesting to me because i like i and said the most about just, I don't know, corporatism and fame and that type of stuff in America.

Performances and Celebrity Culture Critique

01:20:16

Killer Kyle

And I almost got like almost a little bit of a network, almost a little bit of like Dr. Strangelove vibe from those executives.

01:20:25

Killer Kyle

of just this weird like, are we really talking about this? You know what I mean? Like, is this really being considered? And like, it was being considered very earnestly. So I really liked those scenes a lot with all the all the network people trying to figure out how to handle this and going through like,

01:20:42

Killer Kyle

the going through the logistics of what it would mean. Well, if we do this, and he holds him for this amount of time, we actually do have to air this thing. We can't actually not. And so I really appreciated that I did still like even even Even though I'm saying I didn't feel the fear from De Niro, it's not even really an indictment of anything that character does in the movie because as much as it can kind of be maybe easy either after the movie or during the movie to think of those scenes where he's fantasizing about, you know, he's got cardboard cutouts and he's going through the motions with them and he has

01:21:25

Killer Kyle

the the obvious conversations he's having in his head with those characters that are given visually. I i do like that point, Dusty Make, like that was cool to kind of have to literally have those scenes where there's cardboard cutouts and then fully realized scenes without any like, oh, Stardust, this is actually a dream. That was that was a nice trick of of movie making that I that i that i enjoyed kind of being ah ah being a part of. and But the the danger,

01:21:54

Killer Kyle

I guess all that is to say like when he's yelling at his mom at home and he's got all these things set up. It really was a little bit more of that sadness that I had for for De Niro. His character more than more than feeling an edge about what might happen violence wise. I did get that from Sandra Bernard's character. and i And I kind of wanted a little bit more of that world of this world of the people that just stand outside of of this building and just you know and she's rich, so obviously it's a completely different game than what De Niro's kind of doing.

01:22:29

Killer Kyle

I like the scene where he's he refuses to leave the payphone, both for it's an acoritistic feel and also just the utter desperation of being unwilling to get away from a payphone in New York City.

01:22:41

Dustin Zick

both

01:22:42

Killer Kyle

is like, whoa, why? that's That's a level of dedication. That's that's amazing. And that it was that level of dedication that you can obviously see leading into the actions and choices that are made that that have them kidnap Jerry Lewis. Jerry Lewis, Jerry Langford. But yeah, and now after that, I still didn't kind of, like, I think Jerry Langford's response to those two is pretty appropriate. it's It's really one of, I mean, something about like comedians being able to pull off certain roles that you just wouldn't necessarily think they could. And I can't really speak to that for Jerry Lewis. I don't really have, again, too much information with him, but there's a lot of comedians that have done this in a lot of film.

01:23:29

Killer Kyle

where you can tell he's kind of like, I have to do this because I'm here. I am kidnapped. But I know that these two people are buffoons who are obsessed with me.

01:23:42

Killer Kyle

and fame and this plan of getting on, i kind of I liked how when he called, he had to call a couple of times to be like, I'm not bullshitting, this is actually real. But then the danger was really for me, all Sandra Bernard, when she was left alone, that's when it started to get real interesting.

01:23:59

Alex

Right.

01:24:02

Killer Kyle

And when they do the jump cut, it's not really a jump cut, but when they cut from him being sort of taped up to him being fully body taped all the way to his mouth, that, yeah, and that that's when it started to get, it's, yeah, it's pretty it's pretty effective, it's pretty chilling in this way where, yeah, there isn't this level of of sinister that's at play, but there is the level of obsession that you you don't really know what's going to happen when you engage with it.

01:24:15

Alex

It's pretty chilling right? It's pretty pretty effective.

01:24:35

Dustin Zick

Oh no.

01:24:36

Killer Kyle

So yeah, and but there wasn't but there was also a few moments where where I just didn't believe really that, like we said, he's likable, but also then very quickly annoying.

01:24:48

Killer Kyle

It kind of shocked me that he got into this summer house with all these butlers and all these maids and all these things, and in that scene ended up that way. that was kind of the one moment in the movie where I didn't really, I wasn't really with it,

01:25:00

Dustin Zick

I think of it I think it's almost like I almost think it's maybe it's like not likable is not the right word. He's like, it's not that he's likable.

01:25:11

Dustin Zick

He's like, he seems harmless in a way.

01:25:16

Alex

He seems harmless. Yeah, which does.

01:25:17

Dustin Zick

And that's that's how I think he got into the house with the butlers and the maids is that not that he's bumbling, not that he's ah ah you know like an idiot or anything, but he he's like it's like this mix of like harmlessness and confidence and and just like enough career like a ah ah pinch of charisma.

01:25:41

Dustin Zick

that he just kind of overwhelms your senses in a way that like just kind of like puts your not puts your guard down but like just pushes past your guard right like where you're like kind of trying to figure out like who's this guy like what is he and by the time you're like wait a minute I don't think he should be in here he's up using the bathroom and like putting a record on and you're like how do I undo this kind of a thing yeah

01:26:05

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:26:05

Alex

Yeah.

01:26:06

Killer Kyle

And he's wearing a suit. He's wearing a suit. And I think it speaks to how much how much a suit can do.

01:26:10

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:26:10

Killer Kyle

i have i have a couple I have a couple of friends who wear suits professionally, so they have to wear almost every day. And both of them, many times, have been like, you could do almost whatever you want in a suit.

01:26:21

Killer Kyle

you know i'd like walk I walk into a building with most security guards.

01:26:21

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:26:23

Alex

Yeah.

01:26:25

Killer Kyle

And I'm like, I just got to go to the bathroom. And they look at you like, yeah you're wearing a suit. and You're fine. and And yeah.

01:26:30

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:26:31

Alex

He gets into the office building way more times than he should have before he's finally, you know, several times violently escorted out, but I think the suit and the, like you guys were both saying, the sincerity and the earnestness go a long way into making him as effective of a stalker as as he is.

01:26:40

Killer Kyle

who

01:26:53

Killer Kyle

Yeah. So no, I mean, i I like this movie. This is a movie that I would i recommend to people. And i I really do, like you said, Alex, I really do like that they just give us the full set.

01:27:07

Alex

Yeah.

01:27:07

Killer Kyle

You know, we've been hearing all of this.

01:27:08

Dustin Zick

You know.

01:27:09

Killer Kyle

We've been like, that is a very, that's a very good and effective choice to essentially bring us into the movie and the narrative in a way that's hard to to do, I think, in film, where it's like, oh, no, now this is live and you're going to watch it and that like, you're going to watch the whole thing. And yeah, it is it is like good enough, but not, you know, there's there's really nothing there and he doesn't have the relatability to other people to

01:27:42

Killer Kyle

to really get into that kind of observational comedy. So it is all, like you said, like stock, you know, childhood sucks type stuff. Yeah, it was is weird. like i just i wanted a little bit more there's There's things I wanted a little bit more of from from De Niro's character, not his performance. But yeah, it was it was an enjoyable watch. It moved it moved well. I didn't think I knew what was going to happen in every turn. I was i was like surprised by certain lines and certain movements. and i liked I liked all the receptionist stuff. i liked you know like Like you said, the sets were were' werere very were very good.

01:28:21

Killer Kyle

and And Jerry Lewis was was great. I think that's kind of one of the, it's something that really should be highlighted is how good that interplay was between the two of them in all the scenes and all of those trappings of of of Jerry Langford's life that just seemed miserable.

01:28:31

Dustin Zick

Mm hmm.

01:28:41

Killer Kyle

And then you have this person, idolized all that was wonderful. But I guess that that was very surprising to me. you know when you When you watch a De Niro and Scorsese movie, I think you're kind of thinking that De Niro will certainly be the star of the show, and I'm not saying he wasn't, but I was consistently surprised at the level of subtlety and nuance and depth that that Jerry Lewis's performance of this Johnny Carson type had.

01:29:07

Killer Kyle

That was really the biggest surprise for me in this movie that I could not...

01:29:07

Alex

Yeah.

01:29:12

Killer Kyle

you know you I see Jerry Lewis's name and I'm kind of like, oh That's an interesting choice. You know what I mean? I know kind of what this movie is about, but shocking. And then the movie unfolds and it's, you know, oh, wonderful. Fantastic. Why haven't I seen more of Jerry Lewis in movies? I guess is my question after watching this.

01:29:30

Dustin Zick

Because I think this is like his only dramatic role that he's ever done.

01:29:34

Killer Kyle

Yeah. but I don't think he needed the money.

01:29:35

Dustin Zick

and short Short of the the day the clown cried, which you probably will never be able to see. That's the one where he was like a clown during the Holocaust and he he wrote and directed it in the 70s and then it never got released because he was so embarrassed by it. And then he, I was reading up on it the other night and he gave a copy of it to the library of Congress in like 2015. And he said, you can't, uh, it was an unfinished copy and he said, you can't release this to the public until 2024.

01:30:07

Dustin Zick

and it screens somewhere this year, but I don't think it's ever going to get a proper release.

01:30:13

Dustin Zick

So.

01:30:13

Killer Kyle

now i'm very intrigued by that

01:30:14

Alex

wild.

01:30:15

Dustin Zick

a

01:30:15

Alex

Yeah, you know. Yeah, Jerry Lewis was great in this, Kyle, and I i totally agree about those kidnapping scenes being moments where you really were able to see his his dramatic chops shine in just terms of you could see the wheels turning, you could see him, you know, calculating his response and trying to be measured and, you know, hide all of his emotions while

01:30:37

Killer Kyle

Now I'm very intrigued by that.

01:30:43

Alex

while being in this ridiculous situation. And I do love the way that his, you know, kind of smug condescension and, you know, gives way to pity in those scenes where it's him and and Rupert in in the car or later when they're at the country house. But yeah, he's great in this. And I know we've talked about her performance, but I also think Sandra Bernhardt helps elevate this too.

01:31:12

Alex

I love her in that first scene where she's trapped in Jerry's car. It reminded me of like a zombie scene from 28 Days Later or something where the way she's just banging at the glass like absolutely terrifying and I think she does a great job of making that character scary but also really funny in a way that works nicely for for a dark comedy.

01:31:22

Killer Kyle

Please.

01:31:36

Alex

I think it's the last thought I wanted to share on on King of Comedy is just how how prescient this movie felt watching it in 2024 where we've had another 40 years of celebrity warship and fan culture and just cultural idolization of criminals and that whole, you know, kind of what I consider an extended gag sequence at the end where it's revealed that Rupert gets everything he's ever wanted.

01:32:07

Alex

He becomes a celebrity. He he goes to prison and he comes out and he is on the cover of every entertainment magazine and

01:32:10

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:32:17

Alex

you know, it ends with him, you know, at the start of another set. And I just think that is all very, you know, insightful critique of just the weird way that we relate to media figures in America. And I would also recommend this, you know, not just because I think it's a really well done movie, but I think, you know, it's extremely relevant in 2024, which is,

01:32:45

Alex

an achievement for a movie made in 82.

01:32:48

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I feel like this is the only one of the three that I would like, if someone described a movie they were looking for that this fit into, that I would actually recommend watching. I mean, unless you were looking very specifically for like gorgeous boxing cinematography, I can't really in good conscience recommend Raging Bull to someone.

Ranking Scorsese Films and Future Episodes

01:33:13

Killer Kyle

Yeah.

01:33:14

Alex

let's get Let's get into our rankings then. That's a perfect segue. Dustin, then Kyle, then I'll go. Give us your three, two, ones.

01:33:21

Dustin Zick

Okay. Uh, yeah, for three, I think it's an easy mean streets. I don't know. I feel like I'm, I would have. Come into this recording saying that two would have been king of comedy and one would have been raging bull And that would have been purely for the visuals and raging bull Uh, but I feel like talking about king of comedy more with you guys has like made me like it more and appreciate it more and like the nuance of it more and and yeah, like I can't believe I said that like i'm not a big fan of jared loose, which i'm not

01:33:56

Dustin Zick

But that had no bearing on the film, and in fact, he was like a very strong part of the film. So I would say two for me would be Raging Bull, and then one would be King of Comedy. Kyle, how about you?

01:34:09

Killer Kyle

Yeah, it's the same. Mean Streets 3, King of Comedy, 1, and Radio Bolt 2. Which is not how normally people would give that information, but that's how I do it.

01:34:16

Dustin Zick

Yeah, I was just going to say, it's the same, and then you list them in a different order.

01:34:23

Killer Kyle

You know, I'm a contrarian, what can I say?

01:34:25

Alex

Yeah, I I think I'm on the edge of my seat just listening to your three two one Yeah, number three is it's got to be a raging bull for me Sorry for what is considered to be a masterpiece it's just

01:34:27

Killer Kyle

I want people to feel that tension. I want you to feel that tension when you're listening to me.

01:34:28

Dustin Zick

there you go There you go. There you go.

01:34:43

Killer Kyle

I love it.

01:34:44

Dustin Zick

Well, here, like, are are I'm glad I watched Raging Bull. Are you guys both?

01:34:47

Alex

I absolutely.

01:34:48

Dustin Zick

I know, Kyle, you had already seen it, but like, Alex, are you glad you like checked it off a list? You feel like I'm glad i I've add this to my filmography viewing.

01:34:54

Alex

I'm.

01:34:57

Alex

I'm really glad I watched it, and I think after I give it a couple of years, I'm genuinely excited to see it again and see if I have a different emotional reaction.

01:35:03

Dustin Zick

Yeah.

01:35:05

Alex

So I think that speaks a lot to just how much is going on in that movie. Number two i is going to be King of Comedy. And number one, I'm coming after for Mean Streets, baby.

01:35:19

Dustin Zick

Okay, Okay,

01:35:34

Alex

both.

01:35:36

Dustin Zick

Okay. Well, before we sign off here, do you want to do you want to tell the the listening audience what the next three, it won't be the next episode, but a sooner episode, tell them what the next three Scorsese films are going to be.

01:35:45

Killer Kyle

Tell them. Tell them.

01:35:49

Alex

Yeah, in a couple episodes, you can hear us talk about silence. Very excited to watch that. Age of Innocence, Scorsese taking a crack at the period chamber drama with Daniel Day Lewis, someone known the writer.

01:36:05

Alex

And for number three, I am undecided, but it's going to either be Cape Fear, continuing the De Niro collaboration trends, or Bringing Out the Dead.

01:36:12

Dustin Zick

yeah okay okay well that sounds good uh well thank you all for listening and we'll catch you next time bye

01:36:16

Alex

with Nick Cage. And ah I might solicit your input offline, Dustin and Kyle, to help narrow down that third slot. But those are those are the potential three.

01:36:27

Killer Kyle

Okay.

01:36:30

Killer Kyle

See ya.

01:36:32

Alex

Later, y'all.