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Competing or Collaborating – a conversation with Jon Goehring
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Which approach delivers the most sustainable business success?
Jon Goehring is a radio personality, university professor and founder of Trust Media an audio media production company, based in Rochester New York.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds Jon and host Michael Millward explore the development of Jon’s business and how moving from a competitive strategy to a more collaborative approach resulted in the business succeeding.
Their discussion covers
- The importance of knowing and understanding your strengths
- How to apply the ‘ice-cream’ model to identify your unique selling point and what other unique selling points will compliment yours.
- What a successful collaboration successful
- Why collaborations fail
- The difference between collaborations and commercial relationships.
- The future of collaboration
More information about Jon Goehring and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
Audience Offers – listings include links that may create a small commission for The Independent Minds – Please help us to keep The Independent Minds free to listen to.
Buy books mentioned by Jon Goehring in this episode from Amazon
- Mindset by Carol S Dweck
- The Go Giver and other books by Bob Burg
- Audio Books narrated by Jon Goehring
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencaster Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I am your host.
Competition vs Collaboration with John Goering
00:00:28
Speaker
In this episode of The Independent Minds, I am talking to John Goering about the difference between competing and collaborating.
00:00:37
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr. Because Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy.
00:00:55
Speaker
Regardless of whether you are an experienced podcaster or just starting out, I recommend that you use the link in the description to visit zencaster.com and take advantage of the built-in discount.
00:01:07
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to, and probably good enough to share with friends, family, and work colleagues.
00:01:24
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Meet John Goering: Radio to Business
00:01:32
Speaker
to- Today's Independent Mind is John Goering.
00:01:36
Speaker
John is a radio personality, business owner and college professor. Today we are discussing how collaborating with perceived competitors can be more advantageous for a business than competing with them.
00:01:50
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John is based in Rochester in New York State in the United States of America. I have not visited Rochester, but when I get the opportunity to go, I will use my membership of the Ultimate Travel Club to access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:10
Speaker
In the spirit of sharing, I have added a link with a built-in discount to the description so that you can become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club as well and travel at trade prices.
00:02:22
Speaker
Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds. Hello John. Hi, Michael. I love love the intro. Thank you for that. And I'm excited for our conversation today.
00:02:34
Speaker
I am excited as well because I am someone who is sitting here in Yorkshire, which is the English equivalent of New York State, quite close to Old York. So we both live in York. New versus old. Yeah, I totally get that. and It's funny. It's experience, you know, experience. That's what counts. Yeah.
Collaboration Over Competition: A New Perspective
00:02:56
Speaker
ah Please, could we start with a little bit of a history of of how you are the radio personality and a college professor and a business owner? Yeah. Well, my gosh, that's a lot. How do you fit it all in? I started as just in radio. And that was my passion early on because um it's really important for me.
00:03:13
Speaker
What I believe is that stories, the right stories build trust and telling stories is so powerful. That's what we do. like you do here on this podcast. It's what we do anytime that we share some sort of audio with the world. And that's why podcasting is so effective. And that's why I wanted to get into radio, because I wanted to tell stories through means of audio. And so I started that way. Coming out of college, I interned and worked at a radio station full time. And when the pandemic hit, that really It hurt the industry even more. The radio industry is taking a trajectory that's not going in the right direction. So I ended up pivoting, always had an entrepreneurial mindset and a spirit of of working for myself. And that's exactly what I get to do now as now I produce podcasts.
00:04:00
Speaker
help coaches and nonprofits tell their stories through my brand, StoryTrust Media, because I believe that the right story builds trust. And on top of that, I do still work as an on-air personality in radio on a contract basis. And then um i I am very passionate about teaching the next generation some of the skills that I've learned throughout my career. So that's why i also give back as a college professor as well. So So you're right. I do a lot, but it's also fulfilling. Yes. If you are enjoying yourself, it's not being busy. It's just having fun. That's right. Exactly. If you what is that phrase? But I i believe it's so true. Even if they consider it cliche, if you love what you do, you don't work ah a day in your life. And I feel like I haven't worked in a long time.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, we're both having fun. Yeah. But we're here to discuss something which is quite quite serious, really. Yeah. Because the difference between competition and collaboration can be the difference between surviving as a business and failing as a business, can't it?
00:04:58
Speaker
Yes. If I didn't figure it out, mine would have failed and I wouldn't be talking with you today and I would be probably working in corporate bank or something. But instead, I've been able to overcome one of my early barriers. I feel like that is one of the biggest mistakes that we make first off in business is we have what ah Carol Dweck, who's a brilliant professor who wrote a book called Mindset, what she refers to as the scarcity mindset. And that is this concept that everything that we have that we're battling for, there's only a fixed amount of work to go around and we need to compete with others to make sure that we get our piece of the pie, which involves pushing others away, putting others down, trying to hurt others intentionally or compete with others in order to make sure that we win or can get a step ahead. And I think that's a default mindset for a lot of people. It was a default mindset for me. i don't consider myself that nasty of a person, but early on in business, it was like, how can I do this better than everybody else? And that competitive mindset might not be a bad thing in and of itself, but when it becomes the way that you see your business, it really is bad because it ends up isolating you and puts you in a position where you're fighting all by yourself and you're not really making any friends along the way.
00:06:21
Speaker
It sounds as if you're describing an episode of Dallas or Dynasty. Sorry, Dynasty. Ah, yes. Yes. It's almost dystopian in a way. Yeah. that We feel like, oh, we we got to survive in business. How do we do it? Well, we beat everybody else. But I just don't believe that's true. That's true. It's almost like the fight or flight type scenario. yeah The only way in which we can succeed is by beating the other people. Whereas your stance is that actually, if you hadn't have moved from competition to collaboration, you would have been working in some corporate role rather than doing something that, as we've described, you're having a great deal
Mentorship and Shifting Mindsets
00:06:58
Speaker
of fun. Was there one moment where you of thought, I have got to take a different approach? Was there a trigger point that happened for you?
00:07:06
Speaker
It was my mentor who created the perfect analogy for me that I needed to hear at the time. I was getting into the voiceover industry. I still do some work in audio books and voicing. And I know, Michael, we've talked about this. You do some great work, too. And what I was doing was trying to audition for every single possible role, auditioning for roles that I wasn't qualified for. But if I just threw enough spaghetti at the wall, some of it would stick.
00:07:31
Speaker
ah just I'd beat enough people to get enough work. It was a fear-based scarcity mindset. And then what my mentor told me that changed everything was, John, we're all an ice cream flavor.
00:07:43
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You got to think of yourself as a different flavor, not better or worse than somebody else. You got to think of yourself as as somebody who brings something unique to the table. And the power of that is not only that you get more clarity about who you are and what value you offer as a business owner, but the value of that is that you also get to open yourself up to collaboration opportunities with people who are different flavors.
00:08:08
Speaker
Because strawberry isn't competing with vanilla. Strawberry and vanilla can work together to increase the visibility of strawberry to the people who like strawberry and increase the visibility of vanilla to people who like vanilla.
00:08:21
Speaker
You're banging your head against the wall if you're promoting yourself to every single different type of person, to every single different person who wants a different flavor, right? you got to realize that you as a business are a particular type of flavor. If you can clarify that, live in that and embrace that, then that opens up different opportunities for you to collaborate with other um flavors who really aren't your competitors, even though you think they might be.
00:08:49
Speaker
And then rising tides lift all ships. So that was the the moment, the mindset. Mentorship is so important. And I'm so grateful for my mentor for pointing that out to me. And it's transformed the way I do business. Yes, I can see how that would all work. And just are there two ice cream flavors that would not go well together? That's a great question. I'm finding it very difficult to think of two ice cream flavors that would not go together in some way well.
00:09:15
Speaker
How do you identify the ice cream flavors that work with your ice cream flavor? Well, yet you have to go back to your strengths. And this is why I really recommend some of these strengths assessment tests.
00:09:29
Speaker
And when we're talking about an ice cream flavor, it it depends on the industry, right? You don't know how exactly to describe yourself, but depending on which industry you're in. For me, in the audio production industry, in the voiceover industry, it's the characteristics of my voice.
00:09:46
Speaker
What's strong about my voice? Am I approachable? Am I calm? Am I good at firing people up? That might lend me to different types of projects and different types of
Identifying Unique Value in Collaboration
00:09:55
Speaker
clients. So that's important. In podcasting, what I do now...
00:09:59
Speaker
It's what's your target audience? Can you determine in one word what solution your audience needs? What problem they have? Maybe it's mindset, which is kind of what we're talking about here. Maybe it's the inability to find their next solution.
00:10:17
Speaker
business deal or or project, maybe it's productivity, all these different things. But doing this all starts by taking a strengths assessment, which I think is very valuable. There's so many different types that you can find online. I would just search, take a free strengths test, help me identify my strengths. And when you know what your strengths are as an individual and a business, you can better serve people, better meet people where their needs are, and better solve their problems.
00:10:42
Speaker
So you've identified someone who has an ice cream flavor, which will complement your ice cream flavor. Yes. What sort of things do you need to consider to make sure that you make a good combination, a good team?
00:10:54
Speaker
Well, it's got to all be founded on the principle of mutual value. You wanna make sure that both parties understand that you're there to provide value to each other. You're not there to take, you're there to give.
00:11:07
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There's a great book by Bob Berg called The Go-Giver, and it talks about an individual who learned that success in business actually came from giving versus taking. So often we're so consumed with who can help me get to my goals faster?
00:11:22
Speaker
Who can i take advantage of, for lack of better term, Get connected with the right people and sell to. Get in front of the right eyes so that I can sell my my idea and make money. What you're talking about there is people will forget how much you charge them. People will forget whether you delivered something that was good or whether it was bad. People will forget all of that. But they will remember how you made them feel.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yes. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. That starts with giving first, having the mindset of what can I give you? What value can I provide? So in a when you both have businesses, say you and I are both voice actors, which in a way, it's kind of true, right? ah To a certain extent, you have ah a different voice than me. It sounds different.
00:12:07
Speaker
You would say that I have the accent. I would say that you have the accent. But either way, we both sound different, right? So our voice is gonna lend itself differently to different projects. So instead of competing with each other, why not collaborate? And from the voiceover perspective, this is what I did is I now have a partnered talent page on my website where I'm probably not the right fit for 90% of clients out there who want their audio book done or their commercial read in a certain way. I'm just not the right fit. I'm not the right ice cream flavor again. So what should I do? Should I say, sorry, I'm not the right fit. Good luck. Or should I say, I'm not the right fit, but I have some people who might be.
00:12:49
Speaker
That's value all around. it helps the client. They only have to go to one place. It helps me because I'm building trust with both the client and somebody else like yourself who might you know benefit from that. And it helps somebody like yourself who gets the opportunity to now do a project through a referral partner. So that's what I mean by rising tides, raise all ships. When you collaborate with people, you give first and that and then whether or not there is reciprocity there, who knows if they give back down the road. But giving first is the
Dealing with Takers in Business Relationships
00:13:20
Speaker
important mindset. And you'll find that whether you want to call it karma or whether you want whatever you want to call it, it does end up coming back around and helping you two in the long run.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yes. Of course, we're talking about all the positives now, but what sort of, well, let's not call them problems. Let's call them challenges. Have you encountered as you're trying to collaborate with people? Well, you do have takers, people who you're opening collaboration opportunities to, and they're there not to give, but to take anything they can from you.
00:13:49
Speaker
That can present a challenge, especially if you willingly give so much. But that's why building trust is so important. You have to earn somebody's trust and you have to make sure that they understand that they have to earn yours as well. That definitely can be a challenge. is Not everybody has the mindset of give first and you will get.
00:14:06
Speaker
Some people have the mindset of just take. You know, that was me too. So I'm not even trying to judge those people. different mindset and it's a scarcity mindset that doesn't serve anyone well so you do have that challenge come up now certainly collaborating can be more work too because you're building and maintaining relationships that's another challenge i do believe though that it's the risks and the work that you have to put in are worth it in the long run based on all the benefits that you can but get through these shared relationships and the value that you've provided to these people up front yes
00:14:39
Speaker
I agree with you. But when you've been presented with someone who came into your life as a potential collaborator, but turned out to be a taker rather than a giver, how have you dealt with those those types of people? Yeah, quite honestly,
00:14:56
Speaker
I've backed away from them slowly. It's almost like encountering a bear, right? Like, what are you supposed to do You're not supposed to turn away and run. that's That doesn't end well with a bear. And you're also not supposed to approach the bear and attack. When it comes to collaborators who aren't very collaboratively minded, so to speak, I think I made up a word there, but... what you do with them is you understand that there's not a lot of value coming back at you.
00:15:24
Speaker
That doesn't mean that you wasted time or effort, providing value to them up front or referring projects to them. But you also do take a mental note. And that's why I kind of have like a CRM system of, of referral partners, affiliate partners, where i I take a mental note of, hey, this individual um may not provide great work or may not want to reciprocate or may not be interested in anything besides what they can get from this relationship. And then I do one of two things. If they're super talented, I may keep them on
00:15:57
Speaker
that roster. And I may keep referring work to them, but tell them upfront, Hey, I now um charge a slight commission on the work that I give you. So, you know, 10% of the income that you get that comes from me, i I ask for that in return. And that way that's kind of some built in value for me. So I'm protecting myself in that way. Or I may just kind of phase them out and, you know, not in a rude way, not in a confrontational way, but like with the bear back away slowly and just of kind of ease out of referring them to any potential project. What I suppose you're saying is you can have a collaborative relationship. If the collaborative relationship isn't working, you can turn it to a commercial relationship. And if that isn't working, then you can turn it to a non-relationship as well.
00:16:41
Speaker
That's right. yeah Yeah, there's no rules for this stuff, and you don't have to be rude about it. You don't have to say, hey, you're a jerk. Yeah. Get out of my life. I mean, this isn't a formal breakup. It's just ah you can stop referring them work. Yes. It's about being realistic about your expectations, their expectations, and finding a piece of ground that works for both people, I suppose.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Okay. We've dealt with the downsides. Let's talk about some of the successes that you've achieved.
Success Stories: Collaboration in Action
00:17:10
Speaker
What's the the project that, until you found me, was your proudest moment?
00:17:15
Speaker
wow Until I found you. Yeah, no, this part, I think being an independent mind, being considered that is a very proud moment. But no, I've done several audiobook projects lately that just really, really excited to have done. And all of this was through the power of collaborating. All of these came from referrals. um One was a a book called Hey, Managers in the Middle, Improve Your Thinking, Please, all about um leadership and middle management. Another one was a book called Potential to Prosper that I was able to narrate. And then another book that I recently ah did was a faith-based book called Called to Climb Mountains. so um So all these books came from opportunities that I wouldn't have had if I didn't provide value first and build relationships with these people who have the same mindset of, hey, this this isn't the right fit for me, but it may be the right fit for John and passed along my information to their potential clients. So giving first usually leads to good things, whatever that is, even if it's just you feeling better and sleeping better at night. Yes. Those are a couple of big successes. and i've I've really built my entire career on this philosophy.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yes. So it's the collaboration and the projects that you've enjoyed have been projects that have come from people you've collaborated with or want to collaborate with. And they've almost collaborated with you first by saying, there is this piece of work. Are you interested? Yes, exactly. You can analyze it, but you can also overanalyze it. The key ingredient seems to be that yeah if you position yourself as a collaborator, then you will find things and people will find you and they will collaborate with you. But you have to, first of all, be putting yourself out there as a collaborator, be known for collaborating rather than for commercializing everything. That's ah a brilliant summary. And I would say, yes, if you're a business owner right now and you you feel like you all you're trying to do is take, take, take. I've been there. I'm not here to shame you. I'm not saying you're a bad person or your business is going to fail. I'm just saying, if you really want to take things to the next level and have more long term success, consider who you can give to, who you can collaborate with first.
00:19:33
Speaker
passing them work and you will get that in return sometimes times 10 the times 10 is a good return on investment i'll say yeah yeah if there's a lot of of sound business case for collaborating rather than competing and i'm bearing in mind that there will be some people some organizations who don't want to collaborate and others where you just have to accept that they are the competition yeah yeah If collaboration will deliver such a big return on the investment, and it's more of an investment in time than it is of money, why aren't more people collaborating? I think because it's a long-term game. I think in the short term, it can feel like for me early on, you have that mindset that there's only so much work to go around, and I couldn't possibly... want to give it to somebody else because that's dollar signs that I'm seeing going out the window, right?
00:20:30
Speaker
And so it's a long-term mindset that you have to adapt as a business owner that over time, this is going to work for me. Even if I'm potentially surrendering some income up front,
00:20:42
Speaker
I'm building something that's even more valuable than income down the
The Future of Collaboration and Business Sustainability
00:20:46
Speaker
road. And that is a network and an affiliate partnership with dozens of people. Like in my case, I've been able to to grow this to dozens of people who I work with.
00:20:55
Speaker
And that's going to keep my business sustainable in the future. And it's going to make it so that if ever I run through a dry spell, I also have trusted people that I can count on and shoulders that I can cry on and all of those different things that we need as independent business owners.
00:21:11
Speaker
So in some ways, your collaboration is an opportunity to develop a passive income as well. Yeah, and certainly ah i think it's a great thing to consider if you do develop these kinds of collaborations.
00:21:25
Speaker
If you want to pay affiliate commissions too, or ask your affiliates to pay commissions to you ah for providing them work, and that could be a great ah win-win opportunity where if you get 10% of every project for just referring it out to them, Yeah, that passive income, you certainly can't beat that.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yes. Although there's very rarely anything that is really passive income. There is always something that is involved in terms of managing relationships and sure that everything fits together nicely and runs smoothly. I can see all of the potential for it. I can see how it all could work. It's just not many people seem to have the skills that they need in order to make it work. and Yeah, skills, patience, all the different things. And ultimately, it's all about building relationships. Like you said, Michael, making friends. It's okay to consider these people your friends. yeah They are more professional friends, sure, but they can be friends. There's nothing wrong with that. Just building those relationships, which take time and effort. I recommend using some sort of tool to remind yourself to reach out to these people and just check in every once in a while because that's so important to have those touch points so it's not like, oh, I haven't talked to you in a year, but how about this? um I think that's just so important.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yes. Hopefully we'll speak more often than once every year, because I think there's an awful lot of what you're saying, which is worthy of more exploration. But agree what do you think is the future of collaboration when you think about how the way in which businesses are going, and work is going, there's all of the technological advances, which is my way of saying, you know there's all of this AI and then there's all sorts of other technology which will come in along and make change work completely. But there's an explosion in all sorts of different types of media and the way in which people use it for education, for marketing. So all sorts of various different things are happening, especially in the voice market.
00:23:28
Speaker
What you see as the future for collaboration with all of those different things happening?
The Role of Relationships in Technological Advancement
00:23:32
Speaker
I think it is the future, honestly. Not to be too cliche, but when you build these relationships, it transcends everything.
00:23:41
Speaker
New technologies, artificial intelligence. I think with AI, as valuable as it is, one thing that it's going to continue to do is underscore the need for real human relationships. And going back even before AI, just to technology that connects us better than ever, here we are talking with an ocean in between us, ah literally, with a four-hour time zone difference. ah It's one of those things where relationships are easier than ever to start, but they're harder than ever to maintain.
00:24:12
Speaker
And that's where collaboration is all about maintaining those relationships, keeping people in your network, continually providing them value, staying top of mind. And those are recipes for success as a business owner. So if you haven't yet dove into some of the ways that you can leverage collaboration to help your business, I highly recommend if you're listening to this, just think of something that you can do. Just one thing to start off. Maybe it's reaching out to somebody that you consider a competitor and see if there are any ways that you can work together to actually help each other out, even if it's just sharing valuable resources or information about your industry. Those little collaborative seeds that you plant can show that you are actually connected as a human being, not just as another name or avatar out there, but as a human being and somebody who is really looking to provide value all around.
00:25:04
Speaker
You have reminded me of an incident some time ago in my career where I was working in the ah HR ah department of a technology company, one of the managers, and there was a problem across the industry of not enough people coming through from colleges, universities to actually enter the industry.
00:25:25
Speaker
So I made a phone call to my counterpart at several different organizations in the same industry who were essentially our competitors and said, we can compete for the small number of people that are in the marketplace and entering the labor force in our industry. or we can work together to explain to the universities, the colleges, the schools, that there are this number of jobs and they need to offer the courses which will make people suitable for these jobs because you know we will snap them up.
00:26:00
Speaker
All of us will snap them up. But unless we work together, unless we collaborate together, The colleges, the universities won't actually get the industry-wide message that this is what we need. And you don't need to collaborate on everything. You need to find the thing that will add value to everyone within that collaboration.
00:26:21
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's brilliantly stated, because especially if you can add jobs to an industry where, like I said before, rising tides lift all ships. yeah So if you can help others, even if you're not passing work to each other, if you can champion the industry collectively, that's only going to help both of you. So think of ways you can do that.
Maintaining Relationships for Collaboration Success
00:26:41
Speaker
Yes.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, that all makes an awful lot of sense. You mentioned earlier that once you've made a connection, that you have to work at maintaining that connection and building that relationship. So we've talked today, but I hope that we get to talk sometime in the future. And maybe we could share the story of our collaboration with the Independent Minds audience know and as well.
00:27:03
Speaker
Oh, I'd love that. That'd be fun. I look forward for a ways, Michael, to continue to collaborate with you and whether it's creating content like this or i working on projects together. i know we have some overlap with the work that we do. So I'm excited to continue to get to know you, man. And thanks so much for for talking with me here today. It's been a great pleasure and very interesting. Thank you. I really do appreciate your time. Thank you, Michael.
00:27:27
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent but collaborative mind, John Goering, who is an advocate for collaboration over competition.
Conclusion and Resources
00:27:40
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us by using the links in the description. One area of collaboration that is often neglected is managing our health and working with our healthcare providers.
00:27:51
Speaker
Proactive health management is an essential for maintaining good health and an important part of maintaining good health is knowing the risks early. That is why we recommend the health test provided by York Test, especially the annual health test.
00:28:06
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:28:34
Speaker
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00:28:50
Speaker
I'm sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as John and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:29:02
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. And remember to share the link with your friends, your family and your work colleagues as well. Also, remember that the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.