Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Protecting Your Brand – a conversation with Anita Mar from Trademark Angel
10 Plays2 days ago
How to protect the commercial value of your brand.
Anita Mar is a trademark agent and the founder of Trademark Angel, a company that helps entrepreneurs and businesses around the world to protect their intellectual property including their brand names.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds Anita explains to host Michael Millward what a brand is, the commercial advantages of having a recognisable brand and the process of registering a brand name or trade mark. She also explains some of the limits on trademark protection.
Anita describes the Abeceder brand name as brilliant and invites Michael to share how he created it.
More information about Anita Mar and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
Audience Offers – listings include links that may create a small commission for The Independent Minds – Please help us to keep The Independent Minds free to listen to.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing.
Travel – With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and many more travel related purchases.
Fit For Work We recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test; a 39-health marker Annual Health Test conducted by an experienced phlebotomist with hospital standard tests carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A secure Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and lifestyle guidance
Visit York Test and use this discount code MIND25.
Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
We recommend the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where great guests and great hosts are matched and great podcasts are hatched. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencaster Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abysseedah.
Focus on Trademarks with Anita Marr
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, I'm going to be finding out about all things trademarks from Anita Marr, who is a trademark agent at trademarkangel.com.
00:00:40
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution so easy.
00:00:58
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr visit Zencaster, forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida. All the details are in the description.
00:01:12
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:24
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Anita Marr's Journey to Trademark Angel
00:01:32
Speaker
Today, my guest, Independent Mind, is Anita Marr, a Trademark Agent at TrademarkAngel.com.
00:01:40
Speaker
Trademark Angel has offices in Toronto, Canada, Glasgow in the United Kingdom. But today, Anita is joining me from Thailand, where she's on a workcation. I've visited all three places. When I travel, I make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and so many other travel-related purchases.
00:02:05
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There's a link and a discount code in the description. Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds and say, hello, Anita.
00:02:20
Speaker
Oh, hello, Michael. So nice to be here and have this opportunity to talk to you and about trademarks. Thank you very much. Could we start with a bit of an introduction about to you and how you ended up as a trademark agent and setting up Trademarkangel.com.
00:02:36
Speaker
Because it goes back to 99. So yeah, many years ago, I actually lived in Israel. I was studying there. I was looking for a job and I saw an ad in a newspaper that an American attorney is looking for a trademark paralegal.
00:02:49
Speaker
So I didn't know what trademark or paralegal meant. I did apply and I was accepted. so Congratulations. And then i immigrated to Canada and I found a job in a big law firm. And then I became a trademark agent. So I passed an exam and actually I got the highest mark in Canada ah in 2008.
00:03:07
Speaker
And then when my third son was born and I was on maternity leave, I decided that maybe it was time for me to set up my own firm. And that was in 2017.
00:03:18
Speaker
isn it So I said to myself, I can try it. If it doesn't work, I can always go back. If it works, I don't have to go back. And it did work. So I never went back. And you're international, so you've got offices in the UK and in Canada. Yeah, we register in many countries. We work with about 20 attorneys like on a regular basis, and we have about 15 people like working full-time. We mostly work with English-speaking clients, but our staff is also um
Understanding Trademarks
00:03:47
Speaker
multilingual. You built a business out of something which I think there is still quite a lot of misunderstandings.
00:03:53
Speaker
It's all intellectual property and and I think it's going to become increasingly important as the world becomes more technical. And what do the words actually mean? Yes, there is a lot of confusion around this world and words and people mix them up. They come to us and they say they want to copyright a patent or they want to patent a trademark. And it just and trademarks are really an essential part of your business.
00:04:16
Speaker
In the business world, we call them brands. So what can be a trademark? It can be like a word, symbol, logo, tagline, or a combination of any of those.
00:04:27
Speaker
A trademark can even be a shape or smell, texture, sound, or color. Most of the trademarks are word marks, so just text, or logos. This is how most of the trademarks are filed.
00:04:41
Speaker
Trademarks protect brand names. What they represent is your goodwill, reputation, and quality of your products. And what they do is really simple. They help to differentiate the products and services that a client offers from the products and services of other people. So it and it prevents another personal company from offering a confusingly similar product or service. So like a trademark really protects your brand. And what I like to, like how I like to explain is like trademarks are a shortcut to get customers or consumers to where they want to go. So it's like a lighthouse acting as a guide to consumers of a product or service.
00:05:23
Speaker
Because you don't need to remember a company name. All you need to remember is a brand name or a trademark name in order to find a product that you like or that you bought before and liked. It's the guarantee that you're getting the product that you bought before. Yeah, yeah. And that's what they're supposed to be.
00:05:38
Speaker
you're getting it again from the same store. Yeah, you come to a store, you see a product, you look at the logo, obviously, like where else would you look? And i see oh, I bought this before. I like this product. Let me buy it again because I like this. I like this brand. So I like the company behind this brand. So I'm going to buy this product. So it's all about like brand recognition, goodwill, reputation.
00:05:59
Speaker
ah So it doesn't really matter like what the company name is. So as long as you know what the trademark is or the brand name is, ah that's the goal of having like a good trademark or successful trademark. And going to your question about differences between like patents and copyright and trademarks, that they're all intellectual property, but they protect different aspects of intellectual property. So trademarks, we talked about them. It's the name of product, name of a service. ah Copyright protects...
00:06:30
Speaker
original artistic works or literary works like songs, music, plays, books, and they protect the content. And patents protect an invention or nowadays, most of patents are improvements to an existing invention.
00:06:47
Speaker
And that's how most patents are filed. Another important difference is that both copyright and patents eventually expire. But trademarks do not expire, so they can last forever as long as they're renewed and as long as they're in use. So in this case, trademarks are superior because they never expire.
00:07:07
Speaker
Think about Coca-Cola. I mean, it's a pretty old trademark. It doesn't expire because it's been renewed yeah and because it's still in use. Yes. And it hasn't become generic. Yeah. So there are some conditions, obviously, for a trademark to stay valid. I mean, it shouldn't become generic. Some trademarks have become generic over time.
00:07:23
Speaker
It should be in use and it should be renewed. i mean, if those three conditions are met, like a trademark can stay valid forever and it will become just stronger and stronger as time goes by. But when you say a trademark that has become generic, you're talking about things like Hoover.
00:07:38
Speaker
Any vacuum cleaner is has the verb, you're Hoovering. Yeah. When you're using a vacuum cleaner, regardless of who who's made it, the the brand Hoover has become generic to the activity.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yes, yes, exactly. Like trademarks like Escalator, Elevator, I think Cellophon. I mean, those are all um like examples of generic but trademarks when people have actually started calling ah like a specific product by a trademark name. I think ah Google is also going there despite the efforts. So when you say you want to look something up on internet, you just say, i will Google this. and That's not a proper way to say you should say, i will look up on the internet by using Google or I will check it on internet. But you shouldn't say, I will Google this.
00:08:23
Speaker
What is a good trademark? How would you go about finding a good trademark? A good trademark should be distinctive. It should be unique. It should be memorable.
00:08:34
Speaker
And it shouldn't be registered by somebody else. So it should be available for registration. It shouldn't describe a product name. And a bad trademark is like a name of a product. It's descriptive. It's boring. And it's similar to
Crafting Unique Trademarks
00:08:48
Speaker
other trademarks. So actually, it's quite difficult to find a good trademark nowadays because...
00:08:54
Speaker
most trademarks are taken. So that's the sad reality. So what I recommend is think outside of the box. Just don't be afraid to be different. Ask me how I came up with the brand name Abusida. Yeah, actually, I was going to say that your your trademark name is is really unique.
00:09:11
Speaker
And it's definitely like thinking outside the box. Like, how did you come up with with a name like that? How did I come up with a name like Abusida? Yeah. It was one of those things where I had read about um people who use their own names as the trademarks for their businesses. When they sold their business, they also sold their name.
00:09:33
Speaker
Jo Malone is is one of those that comes to mind. Elizabeth Emanuelle is another one. When they sold their their name, they were forever associated with their name, regardless of even though they weren't associated with the business anymore.
00:09:48
Speaker
So I decided when I set up the company that it wouldn't be called by my name so that I could be separate from the business as well. huh And then it became Okay, I can spend hours trying to think of something or I'll just use that old tool, the the dictionary.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I'll start at page number one and I will work my way through until I find a word that sums up what it is that I want to do. I was committing myself to, I thought, a whole evening of going through the English dictionary.
00:10:22
Speaker
But on page four, there was a word which was spelt, well, there was a word that was abysidah, ending A-R. And it's a Latin word. Some people say it's Greek.
00:10:34
Speaker
but it means to put into logical order. And I thought, what do I want to do with my brand name is I want to explain that too many people deal with HR from an emotional perspective and that's where the problems come in.
00:10:46
Speaker
Let's deal with it logically, systematically, and so many issues will just disappear. So that sums up what I want to do. I want to approach HR from a logical perspective. That's a brilliant word. Yeah, yeah. And then if I change the spelling so that it's a made up word and it will also spell out ABCD, which again sort of explains what it is that I do. So nothing more logical than an alphabet.
00:11:13
Speaker
So that's what I did. I changed the spelling, created a word that now people say to me, does that spell out A, B, C, D? And I say, well, it it does, but it doesn't because the way to work out how to pronounce it, and I do get some very interesting ways to pronounce it and also to spell it.
00:11:31
Speaker
but The way to i pronounce it is as if I was a five-year-old yeah learning how to read. so it's Abbasida. And um it's it works really well. I love it. i would I just love the name. And I'm really proud of it. And everything that the team at Abbasida does, it sums up what we do.
00:11:50
Speaker
And that's that's the story of the of the trademark, how we how we came to it. And that's actually like a brilliant story and what I tell my clients they should do.
00:12:01
Speaker
Your trademark should have a story behind it because if it's really boring or similar to other trademarks, I mean, it will not be memorable. There will be no story. And, you know, clients will not remember your trademark. If it's memorable and it has a story, it's just so much easier to grow and to differentiate yourself from others. And yes, your your your trademark name is actually very...
00:12:22
Speaker
it's It's brilliant and it has so so many different aspects to talk about. That's an example of a great trademark, really. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. um That's It made my day. We also trademarked the the logo that we use, but very soon we will have a new logo, which will also be more closely linked to the things that we do. So Abbasida has three parts.
00:12:44
Speaker
and We deal with information, the production of content and guides and how-to guides, all sorts of various different HR-related things. So podcasts, webinars, training courses, all sorts of things. So that's one arm. Another arm is our workplace centers where we sell ah products, training courses, learning resources, business tools. And then our third arm is the services. So that's our HR software and the ah HR consultancy. And our logo will meet more closely related to that. So a logo which has three different parts to it. Yeah, you're being proactive here. We will add the logo into the description. It's great that you think the trade name is brilliant. I'll carry that with me. Thank you very much. But for other people, what sort of advice have you got about finding their own trademark, their own trade name? Ideally, it should consist of one word and it should be arbitrary like yours or it can be a dictionary word. But as long as that dictionary word doesn't describe actual products like Apple, for example, it's good trademark. If one word is not possible or taken,
00:13:52
Speaker
like a two-word trademark is also good. And in this case, one word can describe the industry and the second word should be unique, distinctive or ah arbitrary, or it should be, it can be suggestive of the industry, but it shouldn't be descriptive. Like for example, trademark angel.
00:14:09
Speaker
So trademark is pretty descriptive of the industry. So you know that, okay, it's something to do with trademarks, but angel, well, you know, we're not real angels, but it's so it's something suggestive of the qualities that we have, or hopefully that we are like somebody good, right? But it's not really describing. If the name was a trademark expert, it would be descriptive and not registrable because there are so many other trademark experts. You cannot monopolize that, but you can Make it like um angel or like, I don't know, some other word that's not descriptive. yeah So a two word trademark is good. And what I like to tell our clients, well, first of all, is like as soon as you come up with a name you like, check social media handles, make sure they're available, get them.
00:14:57
Speaker
Buy a domain name immediately because it's it's cheap and it will you know prevent future disappointment. And then you can check the trademarks office database to see if there is anything out there. And only after that, oh, and check internet.
00:15:12
Speaker
And just by putting the desired trademark name and going through like the first five to 10 pages to see, maybe there are some companies that use that name already. In this case, it may not be a good trademark. So if the social media handles are available, domain is available,
00:15:29
Speaker
no one uses it and the trademarks office database is clear, then it's a good name and it can be filed. The company name doesn't doesn't mean doesn't need to be the same. It can be something quite different.
00:15:41
Speaker
This is one of the things when you when you talk about trademarks and trade names, When I go to the supermarket and I walk down the aisles, I see all sorts of different brands of food in the same aisle. The cereal aisle, for example.
00:15:55
Speaker
There are lots and lots of different types of cereals. But on the bottom of the box, there's usually the brand of the company that made it. And what you were talking about as brands being a ah symbol or or a signal of the quality that you can expect, that is what they are doing, isn't it? Like this is a, whatever the name of the cereal is, but actually what's important is that we've got this big food manufacturer's name at the bottom, which then tells you this is a good product. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:30
Speaker
But usually people don't look at the company behind, they just look at the name and they recognize it and they buy that product because they know, okay, that's a familiar brand, that's a familiar logo, so I should get this. I mean, most people don't have any idea who's behind like a particular product. Only curious minds actually go as far as like checking, okay, who's behind this brand and like read the bottom of the box.
00:16:51
Speaker
That must be me then. Yeah, it must be you because most people don't do this. Yeah, they just look at the name, they recognize it in the byproduct because it looks familiar. Yeah. Suppose though, when a new product is launched and a new brand is on the box, having the the originator of the brand, the company that manufactured that brand is an indication that there's less risk in trying something new because it comes from a company that we know about. Oh, yeah. In this case, ah like ah like a company name can also be trademarked and it can be like, for example, trademark name by then the familiar company name is like below and then, you know, OK, it comes from this company. But the the company name is also trademarked, and also registered as a trademark because one company can have multiple brands. And yes, when a new product is launched, if that particular company wants customers to know that they behind this brand, they will put that on
Trademark Registration Essentials
00:17:45
Speaker
the box as well. They will put their...
00:17:47
Speaker
company name as well. So when you're sitting down, starting thinking about a new product or a new business, and you come up with a name, the thing to do is then to make sure that that name hasn't been taken by someone else. So in the UK, you'd look at company's house, can I register that name? And then start searching the internet to try and find out if anybody else is doing anything in the same sort of category, the same industry with the same name.
00:18:13
Speaker
And then think about the social medias and protect things. What you're saying is protect things as quickly as possible so that you may not actually use a social media account, but it's useful to have the social media account registered so that no one else can use your brand name. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:33
Speaker
And say things perhaps which you wouldn't want associated with your brand name. Yeah, absolutely. But one correction, small correction, ah in addition to the company's house. So a company name is registered like at the company's house, but a trademark is registered with the Trademarks Office. you Like in the UK, it's a UK Intellectual Property Office. So you should check if your desired trademark is available for registration, like in the trademarks office database. So, which is different from the company's house database yes because and an identical company name may exist, but that particular company may not use company name as a trademark. Maybe they have a different trademark, but the company name is completely separate. In this case, it's not a problem because it's not used as a trademark. It's not used as a source indicator. It's not used on any products or for any services. But you should definitely check the trademarks office database of the country where you want to file.
00:19:31
Speaker
That's also important. And just because you've got a trademark in the United Kingdom, for example, does not mean that you've all got a trademark anywhere outside the United Kingdom.
00:19:41
Speaker
Yes, that's true because trademarks are jurisdictional, unfortunately or fortunately. So you should consider trademarking in every country where you will do business, where you where you sell your products or offer your services. When you register a trademark, they're in sections, I think it's called classes, aren't they? You register your trademark for a number of classes where they are the most appropriate for the work that you do. But that actually means that someone in a totally unrelated industry could actually use the same name yeah and be perfectly legal because they've registered the name in a different type of class.
00:20:19
Speaker
yeah Yeah, actually in most class in most countries, well in the UK as well, you register a trademark not just for classes but for the specific products or services which fall in a particular class. For example, if you offer educational or entertainment services, that will be class 41, but you will still file for a specific service description within that class. So you don't get the whole class.
00:20:41
Speaker
you get a trademark for specific descriptions within the class. And your trademark may be filed in multiple classes, but it will still be for specific descriptions. And yes, you're totally right. A trademark doesn't protect you for everything. It only protects you for your specific products or services. So for example, if if youre you're a besader, Trademark, I don't know if I pronounced it right, is for like educational services, class 41 or entertainment services. Somebody else may decide to register the same trademark for muffins, for selling muffins. And you won't be able to do anything about that unless you plan to sell muffins yourself. It's quite a complex thing, isn't it? Trademarks. Yeah, yeah. And protecting them is is quite complex as well.
00:21:26
Speaker
Because if someone does do something that is looks like your trade name, sounds like your trade name, it is important to protect it, isn't it? as You have to take action against the people that are doing something that could damage your trademark. Yes, yes. But registering a trademark is the cheapest form of protecting your brand yeah because there is no other way to enforce your rights so easily. When your trademark is registered, you have so so many more options and it's easier to stop others from using a similar trademark or like a similar name.
00:21:58
Speaker
ah If your trademark is not registered, you you have to rely on common law rights. You have to prove that you actually have rights in a particular name. So yeah, trademark registration is the cheapest way of protecting your brand, protecting your business, especially for businesses that are like service in the service industry that offer services because it's all about the name because it's all about the goodwill. Yes. What would be your advice to someone who finds out that someone has set up a social media account using their trade name, but they're not associated with your trade name. So what's the best sort of way to take action in that sort of circumstance? Well, if it's just a social media account and let's say if it's ah Instagram and the name is the same as your trademark, but the actual services that they offer are completely unrelated. In this case, that person or that company is not really using your trademark because they don't sell any products under this particular name. But you can send them a warning letter just telling them that, okay, be aware that this is my trademark and that's like that's my registration number. just And you just put them on notice that they shouldn't start selling like products similar to yours. But if it's just, let's say, if it's just like a YouTube channel name and it's like a personal account, there may be no trademark use that That's why I say get social media handles like as as soon as possible to make sure they belong to you because then you don't have this you know problem. But if somebody takes a similar name, but they don't offer like similar services to yours, there isn't much you can do. But if they do offer services that are similar to yours and put a similar trademark, then yes, you you can send a cease and desist letter, obviously. right
00:23:39
Speaker
If your trademark is registered and there theirs is not. Good advice. Good advice. Thank you very much. Yeah. And it's always a good idea to check if you, before you do anything, just it's best to consult with an expert to make sure you you do things right.
00:23:52
Speaker
Because sometimes you think that you have rights, but you actually don't. So it's always good to, you know, to consult with an expert to make sure you yeah you approach this correctly. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes you can have rights and sometimes you just have to rely upon people doing the right thing because, but it's your trademark, but you're quite right. Before you start getting involved in these things, it's a good idea to um to check out with an expert before you waste a lot of time on something that... Yeah, I just have a quick story about this. We had a client who...
00:24:26
Speaker
filed a trademark. Well, they didn't register. They filed a trademark and then they found somebody in social media with the same name and they got extremely upset
Importance of Expert Consultation
00:24:33
Speaker
and emotional. And what they did, they sent, they immediately sent like a message saying, well, Hey, that's my trademark. Just, you have to rebrand immediately. They didn't consult with us. They got back as like a letter saying that they have prior rights because they've been using the name for a longer time.
00:24:51
Speaker
So, well, the client showed himself in the foot relay because they they couldn't really enforce their rights because the actual person had earlier rights and the client didn't know. So they just went all emotional and contacted them without consulting with us first. And we had a, like they had a problem later.
00:25:11
Speaker
Well, that's the whole abeceder approach really, isn't it? It's like, don't get emotional, get logical, go through a process and you end up coming out of it. Exactly. An awful lot better than if you simply just react emotionally. We get our brand name in again. No, you're right. You're right. You're an angel. You're a trademark angel to give me so many opportunities to discuss my brand and my trade name. Thank you very much. yeah It's been really, very interesting, Anita. Really do appreciate your time. Thank you.
00:25:39
Speaker
yeah You're welcome. Nice talking to you. Thank you. Likewise. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Anita Marr, a trademark agent from TrademarkAngel.com.
00:25:55
Speaker
You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Anita.
00:26:08
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Anita, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
Episode Conclusion and Call to Action
00:26:20
Speaker
At the Independent Minds, our aim is proactive positive aging. Knowing the risks early is an important part of maintaining good health. That is why we recommend the annual health test from York Test.
00:26:31
Speaker
York Test provide an assessment of 39 different health markers, including cholesterol, diabetes, vitamin D, vitamin B12, liver function, iron deficiency, inflammation, and a full blood count.
00:26:45
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a yeah UKAS s accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:27:00
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure personal wellness hub account.
00:27:11
Speaker
There is a link and a discount code in the description. The Zencastr system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and experience technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:27:29
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:27:44
Speaker
That means the description is well worth reading. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Anita and I have enjoyed making it.
00:27:55
Speaker
Please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:28:13
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.