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Entering The BBC Dragons’ Den – a conversation with social entrepreneur John McClarey
2 Playsin 1 day
You may have seen the BBC1 TV show Dragons’ Den, but what is it like to enter the Den and pitch for investment? Social entrepreneur John McClarey recalls his experience.
John McClarey is the founder and Managing Director of Business Fives which provides sports activities as corporate events and in the process raises money for charity.
One of the first episodes of The Independent Minds featured John explaining how on the five-a-side pitch your job title doesn’t matter, it’s all about the team.
Ahead of tonight's edition of the long-running BBC programme The Dragons’ Den in this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds John recounts to host Michael Millward what it is like to prepare for what happens when the elevator doors open and you step into The Dragons’ Den.
John discusses,
- Receiving the telephone call from the producers
- The detailed vetting process
- How he prepared to do his pitch
- The waiting involved
John pitched for £50,000 in exchange for five percent of his business. To find out if he was successful watch Dragons' Den on the BBC iPlayer.
Discover more about John and Michael at Abeceder.co.uk
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Being a Guest
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Transcript
Introduction to Zencastr and Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution processes so easy.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:32
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward. the Managing Director of Abbasida.
John McClary and Business Fives
00:00:37
Speaker
In this episode of The Independent Minds, I'm going to be finding out what it is like to enter the Dragon's Den.
00:00:45
Speaker
From John McClary, who is the Founder and Managing Director of Business Fives. Michael, brilliant to chat there again. It is. We came about a year ago, i think it was, and told me all about Business Fives and what is actually involved and what it's like to be on a five-a-side football pitch playing alongside your boss and how that changes.
00:01:09
Speaker
work experience because you've been playing football with boss it was actually two years ago and i know that because it was the day after her eighth birthday as a business and we're a couple of months away now from turning 10. uh time flies i suppose just as a refresher uh we run a corporate charity sports events football and mixed touch rugby golf and esports events so nema city in the uk we've probably got an event there now between Now in the end of March, we've got a really busy schedule coming up again. So loads of companies coming along to take part in the Business 5s events this series is. And then we switch into Business 4s. We've got some Business 7s events and hopefully some Business Paddle events coming up this year as well. So yeah, lots on the go. You are the workplace sporting director.
00:01:59
Speaker
activity centre really aren't you? Yeah definitely a kind of go-to for anybody interested in taking part in sporting events with their work coming in and and getting their team kit on. Yeah really proud of that. The other milestone just to update you that we did pass I know we were like 90% of the way there but we've now raised a million pound for charity together with our clients for the events as well. So that's something that my son, we were hugely proud of and we're kind of marching on towards the two million pound mark now as well. So yeah, all good
Entering Dragon's Den - Excitement and Skepticism
00:02:30
Speaker
stuff.
00:02:30
Speaker
Great. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Well deserved. Now, today is the 19th of February, 2026. And we're talking about you being on the Dragon's Den, the BBC One television program, which is tonight at eight o'clock. Yes, hugely exciting.
00:02:49
Speaker
It is exciting because there's a lot of spse suspense involved as well. But I can remember when the program was launched and I met the first person who ever entered the Dragon's Den.
00:03:02
Speaker
And I had a conversation with him about how nerve wracking it was. And that really came across. And then he was invited back again year or two later. But I have to ask the question, why on earth would you want to put yourself through that?
00:03:16
Speaker
It's a really good question because whenever the opportunity first comes up, you don't realize what's ahead of you. You you don't really, you kind of see that the prize at the end of it all, and you do have to maintain laser focus on that as well.
00:03:31
Speaker
But it's a really, really chunky piece of work. It's a pretty consuming thing to do but you're exposing yourself, you're exposing your business, you're exposing your business financials, you're left in a really vulnerable position, and you have to, like, it's just a really intense thing to do.
00:03:48
Speaker
But with all that knowledge that I have now and what's kind of gone on in the past year, I would do it again heartbeat, I can tell you that much for sure. The only question I can ask after you've said that is why?
00:04:00
Speaker
Well, I'm a business owner and I've kind of had the, yeah, the ambition to go on the show, certainly, but I'd never really given it any serious thought, if I'm being honest, Michael. It was a really regular Tuesday afternoon and I got a phone call completely out of the blue.
00:04:17
Speaker
And it was, hi, it's ah somebody from the BBC studios here. We're doing a bit of research and research for the upcoming Dragons Den series. We've came across your business and just wondering if you've ever thought about applying. My first instinct was I was just like, are you taking the piss? Are you taking the hand out of me here?
00:04:38
Speaker
No, it it's it was genuine and it checked out. So I kind of just said, look, you're going to have send me an email. to have to see if it comes from a BBC domain kind of verify this. But yeah, I didn't really believe that at that point.
00:04:51
Speaker
Then it just snowballed and gathered momentum really, really quickly.
Application Process and Due Diligence
00:04:55
Speaker
you have to contain your excitement completely because it's something that that feels so fragile at those opening stages. You have a whole application process to go through.
00:05:07
Speaker
they They tell you up front there is zero guarantee whether they approach you or you approach them. There's still no guarantee that you've got on the show. So yeah, so I thought thought that that was a really good good case in point for answering those random numbers that pop up on your phone. Yeah, remember so you never know who's going to be on the other end.
00:05:25
Speaker
You're saying that there is a a like a rigorous selection process before you get into that elevator to go into the Dragon's Den. And I'm sure that the BBC would like to keep as much of that secret as possible.
00:05:39
Speaker
But what sort of things came out of the selection process for you as a business person? Because I'm thinking about, OK, you got onto the program, but there must be lessons that you learn about your business from the process, regardless of whether you get into the program or not. Absolutely, for sure. When we're we're so busy as we are within business, you don't really take a lot of time to step back and reflect and kind of look and scrutinize the business. And when you're going through an application process like this, you have to collate so much information because you want to sell yourself and you want to sell your business and make yourself sound in as as interesting as possible.
00:06:17
Speaker
because it's it's TV at the end the day, they they want to know if it's going to be big an interesting story, if it's going to be a kind of unique business, if it's what what is the kind of angle they could use.
00:06:28
Speaker
and The whole thing is, it's a really good stress test for your business. It really tests how well you've collated your data, how well you know your figures, like everything that you've you've put together, can you back it up with facts? Because when it came to the the due diligence process,
00:06:45
Speaker
That was a really, really chunky, cumbersome bit of work. Put all the information together. Everything you say in there or everything that you potentially might say in there, you need to be prepared for that. And the BBC you need to verify that as as factual information that you're putting across.
00:07:01
Speaker
So i'm I'm talking everything, everything that you've done personally, like you're Taking pictures of like your undergraduate certificate to to verify that you've got a degree. had prove that I was chairman of my local amateur football club and things like that. They're quite hard to to collate all this information. And then you've got like we're quite boastful of the fact that, that you know, together with our clients, we've raised a million pounds.
00:07:28
Speaker
for charities and just gathering all the evidence that supports that. For me, it was really, really good because it's such a rigorous stress test to go through and a rigorous process and it has to be evidence-based and factual.
00:07:41
Speaker
So to come out the other side, sort of be like, oh, well, we've done things the right way. We've had good processes. We've recorded the right things. Yeah, that that kind of felt quite good, but there was just so much to the the entire like it sort of air quotes selection process. it was It was more like a ah kind of constant interview. You felt like every phone call that you had, every Zoom meeting, every Teams meeting, every application you submitted, it just felt like mini milestones that got you a little bit closer towards those elevator doors.
00:08:13
Speaker
So yeah, it was a pretty consuming process. You make it sound a little bit like the business plan interview episode of The Apprentice, the the rigor that people like Claude go through with the candidates really pulling everything that's been submitted apart. Yeah.
00:08:30
Speaker
It feels like that that. Well, obviously they are doing the screening. like they They need to be as thorough as
Mental Preparation for the Dragons
00:08:36
Speaker
they are. It's the BBC at the end of the day. They've got their reputation to uphold. So anything that we say in there, it can't be you know based on spurious claims. and It needs to be factually backed up. So we understand that. And also...
00:08:51
Speaker
they want to prepare you for what's going to happen in the den because you're in there, you're on your own. You're going to be tested by some of the best business minds in the country and you're going to get the opportunity to discuss your business with them. And that was something I was so excited about. Like they're going to spot opportunities. They're going to spot gaps. They're going to, you know, be able to kind of put the business through the wash, chew everything out, chew me out, and then, you know, come out with some good ideas and and hopefully help you know cast their critical and uh and just a really valued opinion on everything so yeah you want to be as prepared for that as possible so it's understandable how rigorous the process is it it makes sense to me how many rehearsals did you do with you with your own team and your family of them so ask me an awkward question honestly uh that that's one of the things that's uh kind of
00:09:43
Speaker
quite uh insular about the process like you've mentioned kind of my my my team and colleagues here and you mentioned my family and and that's it that's your kind of trust circle that you're allowed to discuss it with so you've got a limited number of confidence that you can kind of speak to you about this and it's a lot to kind of process as well so you're constantly not not so much the pitch the pitch you kind of I knew I could do that. We did pitches on Zoom. We did, we're in the business of pitches. So we recorded a pitch on a pitch and that took a few takes, much to the enjoyment of my colleagues who were filming. We had a real good laugh along the way. um But then whenever you actually find out, right, you've been through the process, you've kind of passed due diligence, they deem you of of sound mind, like you've had chats with psychologists, you've had chats with welfare officers.
00:10:38
Speaker
they They're pretty comfortable that you're equipped to to deal with being in in the den. There's a lot of silence in between. There's a lot of waiting. and There's a lot of right now we're going to do this in two months. This is three months time. Whenever it comes to filming, you'll get two weeks notice.
00:10:54
Speaker
I was on a family holiday. i was literally on the beach in Sardinia. This lovely remote island was just us and this other family from the northeast. And I got a phone call and it was one of the team from BBC.
Preparing for TV Filming
00:11:08
Speaker
And they're like, you're going to be in the den in two weeks time.
00:11:11
Speaker
I still had another week of of the family holiday to go, so you don't get a huge amount of time to prepare and rehearse the pitch. You have to do the pitch first. Yeah, had some kind of trusted people around me that were really good sounding boards for that. It's interesting that you had your phone with you on the beach in Sardinia. Well, I'm a photo merchant. Any opportunity, I'm snapping away. Cool. Yeah, you're still kind of wired into things as well, as much as you try and switch off. Yeah, I probably was...
00:11:39
Speaker
When you run your own business, you're never really on holiday completely, are you really? you might let the inbox build up a little bit, but you're still checking. I am in a really fortunate position that we've got such an accomplished and brilliant team here that I can go on holiday stress-free and the business still still ticks along. and the but the They do a brilliant job.
00:11:59
Speaker
One of the things that you mentioned there was the meetings you had with people like psychologists, making sure that you were a suitable person for their the actual process of being on TV.
00:12:11
Speaker
Lots of people probably think, oh, you hear all sorts of stories about these programs and people going on, and I'm not actually being ready for it and finding it difficult to adapt to the the sudden fame. And i suppose people, the day after you're on, people, when you go and buy newspaper or building you can't with petrol people looking down there, is that him? Is that him? What sort of things do you do to so make sure that you are ready for that certain fame that comes with being on TV? I was really impressed at the fact that they have such a regard for the applicant's mental health that they go through, go to these lengths and set up these calls.
00:12:51
Speaker
with psychologists with welfare officers who are kind of regularly not all the time checking in with you but they're in in contact and they're always on the other end of the phone and they make that really clear that they're always there to support you like i've watched the show you've watched the show between two and four million people are going to watch this so it feels like a big deal in my head and i suppose they're just wanting to make sure that you're ready to to deal with that You have to do a a background check as well. So yeah, so they're they're really thorough in how they prepare you for it. Asking questions like, is there anything in your past that might come out?
00:13:26
Speaker
And if your past is as checkered as mine, the list is endless of what might come out after the back of this. Yeah, so they want to prepare you as as best as they can. So yeah, I think it's really thorough and and'm really kind of reassuring that they take mental health as seriously as they do. So you've got all sorts of preparation to do as an individual's psychological help to make sure that you are prepared to go into the den and face the dragons.
00:13:52
Speaker
You've got through with all sorts of assessments that have been done by the producers, the BBC, and you've also gone through all of the questions that you might be asked and you're trying to memorize all of the different answers because one of the things is you can't take in any notes, can you? No, no notes. No notes at all. So it's all exactly what is in your head. And I've seen episodes where people say, you really should know this.
00:14:18
Speaker
But I suppose it's a bit like when you're sitting watching a quiz program on the TV and you've got all of the answers. And then you can think, well, actually, when you're under the lights with the cameras and all you can see is Clive Mowry, for example.
00:14:30
Speaker
your mind just goes blank. Yeah. but what What did you do to prepare for the the actual experience? Did you get any support with that or were you able to do anything to... Is there a rehearsal or is it just you go in one shot If it works, it works. If it doesn't, you're out.
00:14:47
Speaker
You get one one chance to do your pitch whenever the the cameras start rolling and that is it. So there's no second in takes, there's no second chances at that. And you do a a ah pitch to all the producers and all the the kind of floor staff the morning before you go into the den.
00:15:08
Speaker
and that that you're kind of nervous for and that prepares you but really there's so much focus on the pitch and that kind of two minutes of opening that that is the I mean again I'm using air quotes but that's the easy part because it's the the questions on the back of it you you have no control and you it's really hard to control the direction of travel that those questions might take most of the rehearsals that you're doing it's conversations in your head All of a sudden I've got a board of directors essentially in my head of, you know, Stephen Bartlett, Deborah Meadon, Tucker Shilliman and Peter Jones. And I'm constantly having conversations with them as the as the lead up to the the pitch. You've got a group of imaginary friends that that then that you're having conversations with.
00:15:55
Speaker
Yeah. Did you tell the psychologist that you've got a group of and imaginary friends based upon the dragons? and That was one thing that I probably was was wise to keep from them. Yeah.
00:16:06
Speaker
ah That might have been escalated as a a real red flag. But yeah, no, you just you just can't help yourself. And the night before going in, your mind's racing and these conversations were just going on overdrive. I just, I didn't sleep a wink. I couldn't sleep a wink. And then the last time we were on the show, I think you were going for a 5K up the hills. I had already done my 5K, but I like to start my day every other day with that with a run. And ping five o'clock, I was up. I got myself out from a run and yeah trying to reset so that I pretty much forgot that I hadn't slept and I was running on empty wee bit.
00:16:45
Speaker
You mentioned like it's an overnight stay. You don't just like appear at the studio, walk in. There's like the rehearsals, overnight stay, and then the following day you do the whole pitch and face the dragons.
00:16:57
Speaker
Are you in the same hotel as the dragons or are they down there in the five star and you're down in the in the budget place? We had a lovely hotel. Potentially they were there as well, but certainly and you don't have any ah you don't meet them before before going in there's no yeah That that would would lose the whole reveal.
Wardrobe and Confidentiality for TV
00:17:17
Speaker
A lot of the magic of the TV is is that business reveal at the start of it and and they guess you know what what you might be.
00:17:25
Speaker
I wouldn't be able to help myself if you know Peter Jones was down at breakfast. I'd be trying to chat to him. So, yeah, thankfully they they probably are wise used to to keep you separate.
00:17:36
Speaker
Okay, so you're going to be on TV and I hear lots of things about people on being on TV and making sure you've got the right clothes and your hair is done and the makeup and the tv is all on Do you get that sort of star treatment from the producers or is it just you hear go on? Yeah, that's like the kind of TV studios, anybody that's been there and in front of cameras will kind of be well versed on that. But yeah, you get hair and makeup in the morning. and If you look like me, you're not really used to having that as part of your daily routine. routine And um like some of the clothes that you wear don't pass the screening tests. and So it has to be, you're you're told in a advance, it has to be really plain. and So nobody really goes in there wearing anything fancy because sometimes the cameras don't like it and it comes across like pixelated or fuzzy. So there's a kind of a a criteria that you have to follow of and you have to bring a couple of different outfits because if your first choice outfit doesn't pass the screening test, then you have to wear something else. And funny, these are the details that I haven't given a second thought to um until you've asked those questions. But yeah, there's there's a really there's a lot of prep and the morning of.
00:18:50
Speaker
There's prep the day before because you have stage set to build. You have to kind of promote your your business, but the BBC can't, it's not an advert. Dragon's Den isn't an advert for your business, so they can't allow excess branding. So I had a bag that we would kind of bring along to events full of branded pop-up banners and you know branded merch and everything else. Yeah, you just you can't have overkill, you can have kind of really minimalist displays that get across what your business do, but it doesn't it's not an average, doesn't appear as that.
00:19:22
Speaker
You've gone through the full start treatment, you've got the right clothes on, your hair and makeup is being done. When do you meet Evan Davis, the host? So you do all your you kind of pre-interviews that morning and you do your exit interview obviously as soon as you come out.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of the, lot of the magic that happens and I'm i'm maybe over discussing some of it. I do, do remember one thing that did happen to me as it was the the kind of morning and you're, you're there and you're, you're in the lobby and you're waiting for the elevator doors to open.
00:19:52
Speaker
And, uh, it was actually the, the second time that I'd stood in front of those elevator doors. There was a ah mini technical glitch that that pushed my particular pitch back an hour.
00:20:03
Speaker
And that was heart wrenching because you've primed yourself, you've had like your coffee, your herbal tea, everything to kind of get yourself ready for for that moment. And then you had to ramp yourself up a again. and and that that was something i did find challenging but you have to be versatile there's absolutely no guarantees um in kind of any walk of life but certainly in in in events and um tv largely the same you you have to be really adaptable you have to be flexible to what's what's coming at you there and then you have to deal with that the kind of
00:20:39
Speaker
cards you were dealt so yeah you go back in an hour later and it just didn't feel the same same buzz and i was like oh no i'm not really in the same space and then those doors open and it's like an adrenaline shot to your heart and you're back exactly prime where you wanted to be so that was a feeling of acceleration that um there i'll that'll live with me for the rest i'll never forget that And then, yeah, the whole experience of being in there is something that wouldn't change for the world. It was it was fantastic.
00:21:09
Speaker
Great stuff. So I'm tempted to ask you that. There's the studio. There's the elevator doors. I'm wondering when your nerves hit you, how close the toilets are to the studio? You've got to think about these practicalities.
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah. um you You need to be prepared for everything. So you need to prepare your own body for that moment as well. So thankfully, I'm sure they will be accommodating if you needed a toilet break, but thankfully we didn't we didn't need that when I was filming anyway. so So the adrenaline is pumping as the doors open and you walk in and that's the first time that you've seen the dragons.
00:21:48
Speaker
I really want to know what happens, but you're going to sort it say all sort of confidentiality clauses exist and I've got to wait until 8 o'clock tonight to actually find out, aren't you? Correct.
00:22:01
Speaker
You get all very serious when you said that then, didn't you? Thank you for for not putting me in that position. um But yeah, um obviously, obviously you're kind of, ah everything's treated with the strictest confidentiality. We're out of our embargo period now and that kicked in on the 12th of February. So yeah, you've you're you're keeping the secrets from the world that is like,
00:22:30
Speaker
For somebody like me, we've never had TV exposure like this before, so I've never done anything as kind of monumental as as this, I don't think, in my life, apart from getting married, having a childhood, skydive.
Reflecting on Dragon's Den Experience
00:22:43
Speaker
They're in my kind of key milestones up until this point. And I think I'll have pre-den and post-den kind of life milestones. But yeah, it's it's an amazing thing to have done.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, really I agree with you. It's completely. But I'm wondering, when you look back on it, and it was a great experience, are there things that you would have done differently? What's the advice, for example, if somebody's listening to this and thinking like, I could do what John's done,
00:23:10
Speaker
I'll go on the Dragon's Den as well. What sort of advice would you give to someone who is thinking about doing it and so that they get a positive outcome? Not even whether they're investable or they're invested in or not.
00:23:24
Speaker
the positive outcome for them and their business? What's the sort of advice that you would give someone? Definitely go for it. There's no such thing as over-preparing, I don't think. And prepare as as much as you can. And i like a full credit to the the full team at Dragons' Den and the BBC. You feel prepared when you go in there because the the process is so thorough that you've collated all the information, you know your stuff. and Like I have 10 years experience delivering Business 5, so I know the business inside and out and any entrepreneur that's in that position, they they should also know their business inside and out. Trust yourself, you you really have to have a lot of trust in your own in your own ability.
00:24:05
Speaker
and But it's it's a's hugely worthwhile experience and maybe i'll I'll think differently tomorrow, but I really, really loved it it. was one of the best things I've done in business. And like I've been to like entrepreneurial programs before and i I've pitched my business and that just, that that was ah ah something to be nervous for and I prepared for those. And you kind of go through the wash and you have kind of similar question and um from a panel.
00:24:35
Speaker
of people that you're really trying to impress for for investment. And any of these things that you do, it's just brilliant because you you walk away with ideas. You walk away with different eyeballs in your business who look at things differently than you do. yeah And it's really dangerous position to be in as a business that you do things because you've always done things.
00:24:55
Speaker
But a new set of eyes might say, look, have you thought about this angle? Or why don't you do things this way? Or why do you do things this way? And you don't really ask those questions to yourself on a day to day. So, yeah, like you have to be you have to be really receptive to taking on advice. And that's the attitude that I went into with it. I really wanted to to learn from them.
00:25:18
Speaker
yeah Yeah, brilliant. I'm just wondering, did you get investment? Come on there, Michael. and that That is literally the the big thing, of course, that I can't reveal at any point. i was I just thought I might lull you into a sense of security and you might just so like slip it out. But um you are well trained. Thank you for trying. But yeah, definitely tune in and and I'm sure you'll find out. I will be. I'm looking forward to watching it. So yeah, I'll i'll i'll find out the same same answer.
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, I will be. I will be there pointing at the screen and going, that him, that one there, he's been on the independent minds. He's been on the independent minds twice. And it's been a pleasure both times. It has as well for me.
00:26:07
Speaker
Thank you. what One of the things here that I would say as well is those conversations that you were having in your head in the buildup, they don't really stop afterwards. you kind asked about that regret, you're you' obviously, your're you're going to scrutinize your performance on the back of things. So yeah, those conversations continue, but you can't regret anything because that's how that's how you perform and you can only give it your best on the day. So that's, that trust in yourself, I think that's a really crucial bit bit of advice to give anybody that's that's thinking about it.
00:26:40
Speaker
Yes, I agree with you. And thank you very much for giving your best to this podcast as well, even though I haven't been able to find out anything and I've got to stay up late to watch you the BBC television programme, Dragon's Den, at 8 o'clock to tonight. But thank you very much, John. i've really enjoyed our conversation.
00:26:58
Speaker
Really appreciate it, Michael. Brilliant. Brilliant to chat again. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abasida. And in this episode of The Independent Minds, I have been talking to John McClary, Founder and Managing Director of Business Fives,
00:27:14
Speaker
and an entrepreneur on the Dragon's Den. You can find out more about both of us, including a link to the Dragon's Den using the links in the description.
00:27:25
Speaker
The Zencaster system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you're listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and have experienced technical issues, you need to think about transferring to 3, the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3 means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:27:45
Speaker
There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:27:56
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. i am sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as John and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:10
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. You'll probably also want to share the link with your family, friends and work colleagues as well. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:28:26
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.