Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Making Money Mean Something – a conversation with Bessie Graham
0 Playsin 9 hours
Doing good business does not have to involve creating a negative impact on employees, customers, suppliers, society, or environment.
Bessie Graham is a co-founder of Benefit Capital, and a strategic advisor to C-suite leaders in midsize businesses and large non-profits across the globe. She is a former advisor to the Australian Federal Government and the Obama Foundation’s Emerging Leaders Program.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds Bessie and host Michael Millward discuss how changes in the way people work demands that employers of all kinds adopt a more purposeful approach to making and using money.
Their conversation covers how
- History impacts our perception of the present and future.
- Employee attitudes toward work are changing
- Treating people, customers, suppliers well results in win-win relationships
- Business plans should include a section on how the business will do business
Originally published in February 2025, twelve months on this conversation is increasingly relevant in 2026 to how businesses need to change.
Discover more about Bessie Graham and Michael at Abeceder.co.uk
Audience Offers – listings include links that may create a small commission for The Independent Minds
Further reading
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
Travel – With discounted membership of the Ultimate Travel Club, you can travel anywhere at trade prices.
Fit For Work We recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test; a 39-health marker Annual Health Test conducted by an experienced phlebotomist with hospital standard tests carried out in a UKAS-accredited and CQC-compliant laboratory.
A secure Personal Wellness Hub provides easy-to-understand results and lifestyle guidance. Use our discount code MIND25.
Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
We recommend the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where great guests and great hosts are matched and great podcasts are hatched. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. The all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms Zencastr really does make making content so easy.
00:00:19
Speaker
All the details are in the description.
Introduction to 'The Independent Minds'
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:38
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida.
Bessie Graham on Impactful Business Practices
00:00:43
Speaker
Today i will be learning about how to merge making money with creating meaning from Bessie Graham.
00:00:50
Speaker
Because the world has changed and is continuing to change and the businesses that survive and thrive in this ever-changing market will do business differently. Bessie Graham is the co-founder of Benefit Capital and the creator of the Jasper Blueprint.
00:01:07
Speaker
Bessie has over 20 years experience ranging from the grassroots of sitting in the dirt working with business owners across the Pacific Islands through to the United Nations in Geneva.
00:01:19
Speaker
Bessie is based in Melbourne, Australia. I have been to Australia, but not to Melbourne. So visiting Melbourne will be on my list. When I do visit, I will make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I can gain access to trade prices on flights, hotels, trains and package holidays, as well as other travel related purchases.
00:01:41
Speaker
There is a link to the Ultimate Travel Club in the description. Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Travel Plans and Global Connectivity
00:01:56
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Bessie. Hello. Great to be with you, Michael. We do appreciate it.
00:02:08
Speaker
I used to live in a place called Chepstow and Chepstow is on the River Wye. And down by the bridge, there is a plaque on the wall. which says that this little sleepy river, which is nice little bridge, you know, it's not a big port at all. But back in the day, Chepstow was a place where people would be transported to Australia from that harbour because they had joined a trade union. in the united kingdom and as an ah hr ah professional that's why i stand there and sort of think like that's quite something that this little sleepy town great place to live but it has this this sign up that says this is one of the places where people were transported to australia so a bit of a bit of history just shows how across the world we are so connected and i think that's part of one of the things that it's like drives your work isn't it the the connections between people
00:03:02
Speaker
Yes. And those broader aspects of all of our decisions, the way we run businesses, the way we interact in the world, things are far more connected than we make out. And and there's always a flow on impact, isn't there?
Leadership and Sustainable Business Practices
00:03:16
Speaker
There is. Could you explain a little bit about your history and how you got involved in this type of work, please? Yeah, absolutely. My academic background, both undergraduate and postgraduate, were in politics, international relations. My master's focused in on counter-terrorism of all things. But the two common themes from when I was younger and through the different businesses that I've built have always kind of centered around my love and passion for leadership and for the role that business can play in the world. And my sense is that
00:03:53
Speaker
They both play important roles and most of the time, in my experience and the hundreds of leaders I've worked with, there isn't the support structures in place to um get behind and support leaders. We're kind of, everyone's looking to us for the answer and expecting things from us, but there isn't the the level of um support given to leaders that I think is actually needed in terms of their role that they play.
00:04:19
Speaker
And then on the business side, it's about this aspect of how do we actually run our businesses in a way that has that positive impact that a bit like you mentioned that's aware of those connections and and the flow on results that come from those decisions being made and so for me the different iterations if you like of my work have always sat in that place of trying to awaken the possibility for leaders that you don't need to see business as this zero-sum game where for you to win, someone else has to lose or that it's um your only option to kind of get ahead is at someone else's expense or through either manipulation or, you know, someone else having to to pay that price.
00:05:09
Speaker
My work is about demonstrating to people how to think, make decisions and and build and run a business in ah in a different way to what has been the standard at least since the 70s when Friedman convinced everyone that the purpose of business was in on that profit maximisation for shareholders. So it's it's been an interesting journey and one that for me it's exciting to see more and more people coming into the category of realising that what was seen as business as usual is actually really not even an option anymore in the current market, whether that's related to regulation or environmental factors or customers'
Evolving Business Paradigms
00:05:51
Speaker
demands. All of those things have changed so dramatically in the last few decades that I would say this is the moment for really thinking differently about business.
00:06:00
Speaker
Very interesting. I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment. Oh, please do.
00:06:08
Speaker
Okay, I will do. i agree with you that the Freeman in the 1970s put forward this this proposition that business was all about making money and maximizing return for shareholders.
00:06:20
Speaker
As you were saying that, I was thinking... How quickly was that taken up by businesses of all different types of shapes and sizes in all sorts of locations? That feels like it was almost an overnight type of adoption of that particular perspective.
00:06:37
Speaker
Then I am mindful that we are recording this conversation in February 2025. There seems to be there seems to be a bit of a clash, if that's the right word to use, between what you've said about how business is changing because the world is changing.
00:06:56
Speaker
And I can look back over the last couple of decades of the 21st century and say, yes, I agree with you. But this is February 2025. When you said, for me to win, someone else has to lose, there does seem to be a resurgence of that type of approach to so many different things in the in the world.
00:07:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I i think that there absolutely are certain loud voices in that category who, as you said, if we if we date date the episode, then um the stamp is quite clear that there are some big shifts and I would say – steps backwards being taken at the moment in regard to that. But many of the conversations I've been having with people as this current kind of climate is playing out are around the fact that when I look at, say, some of the big companies or the leaders in the spotlight who are stepping back from issues like environmental issues or diversity and inclusion and and different types of topics like that,
00:08:09
Speaker
In my assessment of that situation, I don't think that those people have had a change of heart or have suddenly got new data that's made them think those things aren't important. I think they're actually just showing us their true colours. They never believed those things anyway. um Companies that pretended to value some of these things and have now realised they have um a particular political climate and some very specific leaders in charge who are going to allow them to verbalise some of those opinions.
00:08:45
Speaker
are simply now saying what they always believed. So there are some of those shifts that, as you said, even if we went back um you know nine months, you wouldn't have thought some of the the attitudes that are now being publicly displayed would be appropriate in this day and age.
00:09:03
Speaker
But those things are not based on actual shifts or data that demonstrates um that they're coming from an informed place. If you actually look at the massive increases in risks to businesses, costs around insurance, compliance, that don't come down to whether you believe in certain environmental um changes. They don't come down to whether you think it's helpful to have a diverse workforce.
00:09:32
Speaker
They're just a ah reality based on what people used to see as an externality and something they wouldn't take into account. So I hear your devil's advocate piece. And to me, I actually think when you see some of these pieces publicly coming out of different leaders' mouths or companies, then i always say to people, remember the beautiful quote from Maya Angelou where she said, when someone... Shows you who they are. Believe them the first time. So when you hear that, then, um you know, take that as a signal and and based on your particular values or what you think, you can choose whether you want to engage with them or not.
00:10:12
Speaker
It sounds as if there might actually be a bit of a last hurrah of... particular types of attitudes because the next generation that is coming through the gen Z's, the generation alpha, are probably more in line with the sort of ideas that have been increasing in prevalence in the 21st century than those that we're seeing in some areas now in 2025. Yeah, ah and that's an interesting one even to look at that because if you think about the fact that those generations that you've mentioned, they are going to be seeing the consequences of all of the damage that was done during the period from the 70s where there was no consideration given to the constraints of the ah planet that we live on, where there was not yet a consideration for the the genuine real cost of of how we were producing and the levels of consumption that were in the mix. And so it makes sense that generations who are going to have to live through the consequences of that are thinking about it differently. It also makes sense that people who have...
00:11:25
Speaker
quite, ah with with a very big gap between the rest of the the yeah world, have benefited from ignoring the true cost and and treating business um as if those elements were externalities. when When they have benefited from that, they're not going to
Generational Shift to Sustainability
00:11:42
Speaker
give that up easily. So you're right, I think there will be... a bit of a violent last hurrah of not wanting to hand over the reins. But I've been in this space and looking at this for long enough now, having, you know, I i was lucky enough to work with the first ethical investment advisors in Australia back in 2000. So we're 25 years into seeing multiple cycles of this and, um,
00:12:07
Speaker
ah I have zero doubt in my mind of where things are headed and the sooner that business leaders are able to think differently about what the role of their business can be, what I have seen over those two and a half decades,
00:12:23
Speaker
is that regardless of the market and the uncertainty in it, you can build a more robust and stable business. If you consider far more factors than short-term profit maximisation, you will see risk and opportunity in a completely different way when you operate like that.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yes, it's a bit like, I suppose, I can make money today and now' have a quick hit. Or if I make less money today, i might actually make more money in the long term by taking a more holistic type of approach. Yeah.
00:12:59
Speaker
listening to you i was thinking about this is you've got your circle and the the decisions that you make have to be able to maintain the circle that you've got so if you make food you've got to think well if someone one eats my food they'll stop being hungry but will the food actually have an impact on their health that they would not necessarily want if they ate a lot of my food it's the knock-on effects understanding the product and the service that you sell and the impact that that product or service will have, not just on your customers, but on the wider population and the world as a whole.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah. And it's a much more satisfying way to do business if you're always looking for those opportunities to say, okay, when we model something out or when we are exploring a new product or a new service, if we try to factor into our thinking,
00:13:51
Speaker
What is it about this idea that we're exploring where if we shifted it slightly, we could become more conscious of ensuring that it's creating that win-win, that someone who is purchasing from us or someone who is in our supply chain, that they too benefit when we benefit. So it's not just coming back to that zero-sum piece that we we talked about at the beginning. you're not just saying, um I'm willing to exploit others or you know tread on other people's faces for me to succeed. And it's instead saying, I'm going to take responsibility for all of those flow on impacts and really think about how I do business.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. There are some big conglomerates who have supply chains that they rely on. So the big car manufacturers, for example. yeah i remember having conversation with an HR ah professional that worked in one of those ones and they were explaining that Their whole model is based around their suppliers enjoying a good living, not an excessive living, but making a decent profit so that they are in a position to expand, to develop new products, to do all the things that an organization needs to do and to do it in the long term, rather than the car manufacturer feeling as if they've been overpaying for something.
00:15:07
Speaker
The organization that is their supplier making lots of money. and then all of a sudden being bought by someone else because they're making lots of money. And the security of the supply chain is is at risk because the continuity of the relationship isn't there, the continuity of the business development of the product development, service development isn't there because it's all just about making the money. It seems like what you're saying, it's the supply chain, the customer chain as well.
00:15:34
Speaker
So who you buy from and who you sell to Yeah, well, it comes back to realising how interconnected the whole system is, which to me comes back to if you think about risk differently, rather than just doing that piece of, okay, how do we in this quarter maximise our profits and slash our prices? If you're instead looking risk,
00:15:59
Speaker
the the whole um chain or the whole process and saying, where are their risks? Where are their opportunities? Where are their things that um if I'm just short term in my thinking, not only will it not help me in the long long run,
00:16:16
Speaker
But actually it could be quite a significant risk to the business. So some of those pieces you just spoke about. I've seen companies who do this well, who I've worked with, where the relationships that they've built with their suppliers have meant that when there are really difficult um situations and people in their supply chain are under a lot of pressure – and can no longer service everyone as fast as they would like. So say, for example, in COVID, this happened a lot.
Ethical Practices and Crisis Management
00:16:46
Speaker
What will happen is the companies who have treated them well, they get priority. So you're the one who is going to be first off their list. You're the one who they're going to make sure you're sorted. And other companies who have always just tried to um you know, rip them off or or get the lowest price price possible will go to the bottom of their list.
00:17:08
Speaker
So these are the the elements where I always say to people, we're not trying to justify just doing things because it's a nice thing to do. You are trying to run a business, but the creation of this genuine win-win is and should be the goal that you create because it's how you differentiate yourself, whether it's with those suppliers you rely on um to actually produce what it is you do or whether it's related to your customers and not having a transactional relationship but instead building that customer loyalty, building that sense of them saying, oh, I actively choose your brand over someone else's. Yes, it gets down to the what using your brand, your product, your service says about me because I've decided to spend money with you. And that can be be and based not just on the value that I get from the product or service, but the brand image, the reputation.
00:18:04
Speaker
yeah You're reminding me about... term the Quaker type communities or the Quaker entrepreneurs in the UK that we had in the late 19th, early 20th century, that most of them were around. I'm big fans of them, I must admit, the the big chocolate companies.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, very famous stories there. Yeah, the organisations, originally my family is from the Midlands and there was be the big Cabris factory, but there was a town called Bourneville, which was built around the factory so that the people who worked in the factory weren't living in slum conditions in in the center of Birmingham. They had houses with gardens so they could grow their own vegetables. There was social clubs. There were public places that people could gather and enjoy themselves. There were socialized. There were sporting activities, all sorts of different things.
00:18:53
Speaker
that were provided initially by the employer and healthcare services before the National Health Service were put in place. And people say, oh, it's very community-minded, but actually... it makes business sense. If you look after your employees, they're not going to go somewhere else. If you've got if you look after your employees' health,
00:19:13
Speaker
they're not going to be ill. And if they're ill, they can't be at work. So it can be seen as very altruistic, philanthropic to provide seropédists or dentists or or whatever for a GP for your employees. But at the same time,
00:19:28
Speaker
You're reducing their their illness, which means they can be at work more. And then you've got all the psychological aspects that go with it as well. But you end up with an organization that has a a terrific reputation, which then gets transferred onto the products and the services as well. And these are those pieces of just zooming out and thinking differently about the decisions you have control over, where you're already spending money, what those flow-on impacts will be inside the business and then outside. So I think so often we're not actually examining the root causes of a whole bunch of the costs in our business. So we just say, oh, well, it's a given that we're going to have expensive recruitment and training. It's a given that there'll always be high turnover, for example. I often hear people in different industries saying, oh, well, there's naturally high turnover in this industry. That's just the way it is. And you think, well...
00:20:21
Speaker
Does it have to be that way or if it is in your industry that people don't stay very long? Actually, I would argue you've you've got an even bigger opportunity there because you can differentiate by being a company that actually builds all of those elements you just spoke about into the way you do business and not in a – Ticking a box or trying to look good externally, but in a really genuine way, embed those ah ways of operating into the business itself. And when you do that, what is interesting is suddenly you start to see, oh, there's far more levers within my control in this business. than just trying to raise prices and slash costs. I always say to people, I'm never impressed when, you know, a new CEO comes in and they're like, oh, look at, you know, he's the one who comes in and, you know, shakes it all up. and It's like very rarely are those people actually strategic or long-term thinkers. They're usually very intellectually lazy and it's just about cost cutting.
00:21:23
Speaker
And I'm not impressed by that. And I don't think that even if you look at it from a stakeholder, a shareholder perspective, they're not the kinds of CEOs I want to see in a company I'm invested in because those things end up biting.
00:21:38
Speaker
And when you come in and just do across the board cost cutting measures, you don't understand the context or interconnected nature of how something works. And so I think all of these ideas, it's us starting to get more comfortable with doing good and making money or the ideas of merging money and meaning. These don't have to be mutually exclusive. You don't have to pick one. It can be both.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yes, I agree with you. I'm thinking back over my career and remembering working with CEOs and who would come in and want to cut costs or bring their own people in who would be cheaper than the people who already working there. But they worked, they understood their mindset and it becomes...
00:22:20
Speaker
very much just simply about the quarterly figures, the monthly figures, the weekly figures, whichever figures, and you lose the, or once you've focused on that, you lose the people that you've got working for you. They know that they're not important. And they know that it's very easy for them to be let go because of a number on a spreadsheet rather than the value that they offer or the role that the role that companies play in communities.
00:22:48
Speaker
where the the managing director of ah of an employer would be ah a person of significance within a community. When that person doesn't live in the community, but comes in Monday to Friday and then disappears, you end up with just a just a factory rather than a community. There are so many different things around this. yeah What would you say has been your favorite organization to work with, the one that's fulfilled the model, the JASPER blueprint and most effectively?
Scalable Solutions in Papua New Guinea
00:23:22
Speaker
It's really interesting because often one of the examples that I come back to and that was definitely interesting one of the most satisfying to work on was actually a project in Papua New Guinea. um Not sure how familiar you are with with Papua New Guinea, but... It's north of Australia and they've got a pretty good rugby team.
00:23:43
Speaker
It is. yeah Yes, above, ah right at the top there. um It was a really fascinating project where I was working with a doctor in a clinic. He was the only doctor in the clinic.
00:23:56
Speaker
And on most days, there would be 800 people a day coming through that clinic. It was outrageous, his workload. massive issues um Papua New Guinea is very um complicated market how he had headspace and time to do this I don't know but he had partnered with another amazing guy who was a tech person and one of the big challenges that they were facing in Papua New Guinea was around tuberculosis I've worked with them for a long time I was up in Papua New Guinea um at least a week a month for at least for about 18 months and I would sit in the clinic with them and and we would be mapping out we were trying to understand all of the components of what made people come into the clinic when when did the process of supporting them work well when was it um making it difficult for people because of the wait times obviously when there's 800 people a day and one doctor that's a pretty difficult situation So we were doing all of this work around building out a scalable model that could then be taken elsewhere. And it was just this beautiful combination of not an external person coming in trying to fix a problem they didn't understand. I'm always a um fan of, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Pamela Hartigan. She's actually from the UK. She's passed away now, but she had this great experience saying that's actually one of our core values at Benefit Capital and has influenced me since I first heard it, which is she talks about apprenticing with the problem.
00:25:26
Speaker
My favourite entrepreneurs and business people like Patrick and David, these two guys I'm talking about in Papua New Guinea, have apprenticed with the problem. So they live and breathe what it is they're doing.
00:25:39
Speaker
And this combination of ah a doctor who was in the trenches every day around ah working with tuberculosis patients. And then another Papua New Guinean who had the tech background. It was just um so satisfying to be in that, you know, when you did the intro at the beginning and talked about sitting in the dirt, that was one of those situations. I sat in the dirt a lot during that time. um But to work on a project that has scale, has potential to then be taken into other countries, which is what I hope ends up happening, was just so satisfying.
00:26:15
Speaker
It's that piece that comes right back to what I said at the beginning of my my passion is that – Supporting of incredible individual leaders, but then allowing them to build a ah business that brings together the issues they care about and can contribute to and does it through an actually sustainable business model. And it's that work for me is the most satisfying process.
00:26:39
Speaker
Sounds very interesting. We will have to find out more about it another time. But for the moment, Bessie, it has been really very interesting having this conversation with you. I do thank you for your time.
00:26:52
Speaker
Thank you very much. ah Pleasure. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abusida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Bessie
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:27:03
Speaker
Graham.
00:27:03
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abusida.co.uk. There is a link in the description, along with links to Bessie's various websites. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Bessie Graham.
00:27:18
Speaker
If you're a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Bessie, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:27:30
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. The Zencastr system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and experience technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:27:51
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:28:06
Speaker
The description also includes links to all of the websites that have been mentioned in this episode of The Independent Minds, which means that the description is well worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:23
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:28:35
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.