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Episode 65: When Doubt Meets Grace: The Road to Faith (Part 2 of 2)
31 Plays1 month ago
Amy asks Janessa the tough questions! Do you believe in the devil? Do you believe in hell? How do you feel about the gays? Do you now believe that sex belongs only in marriage? How are you reconciling science like the Big Bang and what it says in the bible?
Resources:
Oxford Academic
C.S Lewis' book Mere Christianity
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Wounded Healers Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Wounded Healers podcast.
00:00:10
Speaker
I'm Janessa. And I'm Amy. We were brought together by our shared wound of an autoimmune condition in our early 20s. This is a place where we explore our wounds with our listeners and guests who recognize the challenges of being human in hopes of helping all of us let the light in.
Janessa's Journey to Faith
00:00:28
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome back to the Wounded Healers podcast. We're back for part two of Janessa's journey to faith, which I am so excited about because this is ah where I'm going to get to ask her all the hard questions that you, we all immediately think of as people who aren't Christian and then our friend becomes a Christian and you're like, bro, are you doing? What do you think about this now?
00:00:54
Speaker
How are you reconciling that core belief with what it says in the Bible or whatever? um so I'm absolutely buzzing. I'll let Janessa say something now. just realized. Oh, no. First half an hour half a second. I'm over here smiling. I was like, yeah.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah. Because I just remember having all those questions too, like so early on with friends, like. how can you believe this? Like what's happening? You know, and just also like not fully knowing what's happening in the Bible, but also feeling like I did was one big thing for me. So I was like, don't know how you could do that girl, but here I am on the other side of it. And just wanted to also just say a reminder that Amy already said it, but this is a part two. And if you haven't listened to part one, I would highly suggest you pause here.
00:01:38
Speaker
and pick up episode one, you'll have a better full encompassed understanding of what we're going to talk about today. um yes And more of a background, but a disclaimer like we did with episode one.
Personal Faith and Spiritual Exploration
00:01:50
Speaker
Again, i am not here to evangelize you. i am not here to make you a Christian. I'm not here to make you feel bad about your life.
00:01:57
Speaker
So welcome and thank you for being here. I'm only here to share my journey. And if anything resonates with you, then I hope you'll look into that in whatever way feels right to you at this time.
00:02:09
Speaker
So that's my little disclaimer again. But again, please listen to episode one before this. It will be tremendously helpful. Yeah. Yeah, no hate please. But I have an update on the Bible because I'm listening to, I'm reading slash listening to the Bible because Janessa's piqued my interest and sent me a Bible as our Christian friends do. No, I'm kidding.
00:02:31
Speaker
But um I found a um an audio book on Spotify that ah it just has the best British man. I don't know who he is. He's obviously like a famous actor, but his voice is insane. So I'm listening to it on that.
00:02:45
Speaker
i i like I'm on like Exodus, I don't know, 26. Wow. And and la I was just listening to it last night and it's literally like, the tabernacle should have hessian sacks of purple and blue.
00:03:00
Speaker
And it was just going around like the courtyard of the tabernacle should have 10 poles and 10 golden loops, like equidistant. I was like, what? Isn't that...
00:03:11
Speaker
timing It goes into some niche stuff. It's crazy. It's crazy because like, oh
Historical Religious Practices and Personal Spirituality
00:03:15
Speaker
gosh, I'm going to off. But real quick, that a tabernacle. So we see this a lot in a Jewish tradition. ah But before God came to us, what Christians believe is before God came to us through God.
00:03:28
Speaker
Jesus on earth to try and understand us and give us our last kind of shot at redemption he came to us only in the most sacred and holy of places and the only most sacred and holy of places were in tabernacles so you had to keep it up to code God wasn't just going to come into a sinful area um you had to seek out in that and you couldn't you maybe weren't able to even seek him out, you'd have to elect a leader who is cleanly enough morally and physically to be able to go into the tabernacle and speak for your people.
00:04:03
Speaker
So it's kind of wild the like that God starts in these like sacred places and like begs us to come and create these spaces first. So... That's kind of wild. And yeah, I remember reading that and being like, okay, okay, sure.
00:04:20
Speaker
Taffernacle what? That is exactly my thoughts. I was like, okay. The relevance. But I feel like you just need everything explained to you, like for a lot of it make sense. But I will say could not be a good Jew in the BC times because there's a lot of killing goats and i I wouldn't be able to fuck with that so I'd be a sinner that's for sure I'm good I'll be right over here I'm like I guess I don't need God um anyway let's we um yeah we're trying to get into the questions today because um anyway Janessa's got somewhere to be but I keep chatting
00:05:00
Speaker
yeah But to close that out, Amy, real quick, the kind of coolest thing about the tabernacle is eventually you become the tabernacle. Jesus says it won't matter where you practice at one point. It'll just matter that you practice even alone.
00:05:13
Speaker
So the sacred temple is us now, which is kind of wild. Yeah, no, and that's that's nice and much more accessible. Yeah, just wait till New Testament. In the modern age.
00:05:25
Speaker
So thank you, Jesus. um Okay, let's get let's get into the the fun, difficult questions. Okay, so...
The Concept of Evil as Energy
00:05:33
Speaker
One thing that strikes me as an agnostic person, I'm definitely not an atheist, but I would consider myself agnostic, is the way people talk about the devil or like talk about the enemy, like, you know, just a poor innocent person just minding their own business and someone's like, the enemy is working in them.
00:05:55
Speaker
ah yeah It doesn't, I don't, i don't, I obviously don't believe in the devil. Do you now believe in the devil? ah Yes and no. So I know that listener is going to be like, what the heck? So let me just let me explain that a little. um So, OK, so the popular images we've all seen of the devil or like a red figure um with a pitch for corns.
00:06:18
Speaker
tale, but those are actually not biblical at all. And those are coming from later Christian art, trying to depict and understand what the devil could be. um It also comes from literature and folklore way past the time of the Bible being written, including the New Testament.
00:06:34
Speaker
So no, I don't believe the devil we see depicted at modern day is legit. um But evil genuinely cannot exist without good. um So God is good, even even though it can feel like, are you good? Because the good we think of on Earth is very secular. Like we just see it through our lens only.
00:06:57
Speaker
We can't have a higher level of cognition to see how good can also not feel good. um at certain times. So evil to me, it's not an equal opposite to good.
00:07:09
Speaker
So that's the other thing in the Bible is that the devil doesn't hold equal weight to God and that's important to know. But Satan, Lucifer, which is the devil, um All this actually means, and I think it's really beautiful and interesting, is morning star or bearer of light. So morning star is derived from the latin um the Latin word and bearer of light. I can't remember where that's from. I'm so sorry. i did not bake that one into my brain, but you can look it up. And it's really interesting because Satan was actually beautiful, was a beautiful angel and served God very well for a long time.
00:07:44
Speaker
before his fall. So um it's interesting because he's described in the Bible as a few different, um taking a few different forms. And so in Genesis, you kind of see him taking the form of like a serpent.
00:07:57
Speaker
However, later in the New Testament, And throughout, um not the Old Testament, but mostly the New Testament, you also get this new perspective that he is an angel of light.
00:08:08
Speaker
um And what's really interesting is he disguises himself as deceptively beautiful or good. And that you can find that 2 Corinthians 11, 14, where Paul's reminding us of this. So I personally have witnessed, personally,
00:08:23
Speaker
ah i have witnessed people disguising evil intentions, with good meaning gestures in my life. um And I'm really grateful, but I have not witnessed something purely evil and vile. And I know people who have, but I'm grateful for that, that that is not my storyline.
00:08:44
Speaker
But it is my own personal understanding that people I encounter day to day mean well from time, but from time to time they like trigger me or they do something that hurts my feelings. And I wouldn't actually call that the enemy or the devil.
00:08:58
Speaker
um However, I'd venture to say that in my own life that the enemy creeps in through overthinking. So when we talk about the enemy, we're talking about what would pull you out of alignment with God. So what would pull you out of feeling that you're wonderfully and fearfully made? a Again, fearful meant respect um biblically back in the day, and that's one of those times it is that.
00:09:23
Speaker
So if I was made out of respect and I was made wonderfully, then um a lot of the things I overthink about myself are not true because I was made in God's image, right?
00:09:38
Speaker
He makes all of us in his own image. And when we think of image, we think of like what we physically look like. And it's not just that. It's a lot to do with the heart. um So when I'm so worried about being displeasing to others that I speak and act and react as if to not hurt their feelings, I place my value in how that person perceives me.
00:09:57
Speaker
And if I make that a habit, I will, in my mind, overanalyze every interaction I have with them. And I heard it once said that the enemy, the devil, puts question marks where God puts periods.
00:10:08
Speaker
So when I start creating stories and thoughts in my own mind about what I think someone meant or felt, it actually tethers me to a false reality and then to like negative emotions, which are the opposite of healing thoughts with good boundaries. And that is what God really wants for us. He wants us to be steadfast.
00:10:28
Speaker
to have good boundaries and to have thoughts that are cleansing to us and and that radiate out to others. so um And therefore, that puts me when I'm overthinking and I've created a story, like we've talked about that in other episodes, but like,
00:10:43
Speaker
if let's pretend this is not the case, but let's pretend I texted Amy and Amy hasn't texted me back in three days. And I'm like, is she mad at me? Oh my gosh. And I'm going to look back on my other texts and I'm going to think of the last episode we recorded. and i'm like, did I say anything offensive today?
00:10:59
Speaker
You know, and those, to a certain extent, that's normal human consideration and thought, but to the ex extent where it becomes obsessive and you start to make up a storyline that Amy's mad at me, I personally believe that that the devil is not a physical being, but it's disguised by by goodness and by beautiful things.
00:11:22
Speaker
So it's like, man, I thought we had a beautiful conversation. Like how, you know, how is she mad at me? and And there, that is my mind. So I personally believe for me that the enemy is not, it's not equal to God.
00:11:39
Speaker
So he's not like, He's not out here, you know, like taking on God. However, it would be really conducive to any energy that doesn't necessarily ah want the agenda of God to succeed. And that's the other thing, the devil, it's not personal, which is weird.
00:12:01
Speaker
It can become personal, but it's like, it it aims, that energy aims to divide, conquer, and dismantle people from people, and then people from God. So it sows division.
00:12:14
Speaker
um so when you look at that, I think you can maybe consider like, certain things in your life that you're like, I just don't know why I do this. Like, why do I just keep coming back to this? And that is, that's an energy.
00:12:28
Speaker
done Yes, I was just going to say that. So what you're kind of explaining is the devil is more of an energy. Yeah, it's more of an energy, but also um like we're warned about, like it can also come in the form that energy can be received in the form of something beautiful and something good.
00:12:51
Speaker
ah But that beautiful and good is always going to be earthly. It's never going to be supernatural. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Like lip filler. I mean, if that's your vice, you know, that's that's the thing is it's all um that's what kind of makes it really interesting and crafty. And and what makes me feel responsible for never just saying, oh, that's the enemy, ah because one, it's used as a scapegoat a lot.
Divine Guidance in Everyday Life
00:13:21
Speaker
ah for people's actions that they regret. But like two, i don't know how the enemy works in you. um And the only way I would know is through truthful and honest connection that you're struggling, you know, then I then we can help each other. Then we throw each other the rope, you know? Yeah.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So, and I guess that kind of, sorry, this is that this is a question I haven't prepared you for, but it's got thinking. So if the devil is a fallen angel, does that mean that other angels also kind of work by energy?
00:14:02
Speaker
That's a really good question. i don't have the answer to that, like theologically, but I would venture out to say, yeah. um And actually, hold up.
00:14:13
Speaker
Wait, brain. So um the files have laid files. I have downloaded. I'm just kidding. No, no. um But last episode, we talked about Jacob.
00:14:25
Speaker
And him encountering a man in the forest who he just can't shake. Like, it's really weird. This guy's here and something's a little off about him, but he can't place it. And later on, it's revealed that that man was sent on behalf of God as an angel. And I want to also just let you all know that, like, angel is so different than the way we um the way we have depicted it in the Western world.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah. Angels are what that literally means. The root is messenger. So what this really is, is this is an angelic messenger sent from God to deliver a circumstance or to deliver news to a person, a region, person.
00:15:12
Speaker
or a group of people and that expands even more so that's what it means and and in the bible angels are terrifying there's yes i've seen this on tiktok they are horrifying and they are de described biblically yeah as um Like people want to die when they see them.
00:15:32
Speaker
Like they are that afraid. So I always crack up at the Western depiction of like a human with wings because it's not humanly. It can take human form, but it's not humanly. So that's an energy, you know.
00:15:44
Speaker
So. It's interesting. So I think, you know, biblically we know that God sits in another realm alongside the angels, archangels, and seraphims that support him. and And not like a king like we would think, an earthly king, but they're here because they want to deliver good and they want to deliver justice but oftentimes that's on a heart and feeling level to people so yeah so I don't know I think they can work with that energy and I think it's a very rare and I would be very weary of someone who told me otherwise but every now and then I think that God can use anyone as a messenger
00:16:31
Speaker
It doesn't mean you are an angel, but God can work through people in the most mysterious ways if they surrender and allow him to move them in a direction that might feel silly. And and one thing I want to say to like a personal experience recently is I went to a worship night.
00:16:49
Speaker
And there was like an old woman, um three rows up for me. And it just was placed on my heart. Again, I don't hear a voice of God. I don't have any kind of static experience, nor do I think I would want that in my relationship because that kind of, you know, it's like, oh, there it is. Okay. Okay. Bye. You know, um yeah but I want an ongoing relationship with God. And and I kind of felt on my heart, like,
00:17:12
Speaker
think that woman needs a hug and then I had to discern I sat there for a few songs a few um like preaching moments and was like why do I think that person needs a hug and then it just dawned on me I can't actually logically make sense of this at all and but I walked up to her and I just said hey I'm sorry, this sounds really weird.
00:17:35
Speaker
I think i I'm supposed to give you a hug. And it was so crazy because she was like, I'm having the worst day I've ever had, and I would love a hug. I would love a hug. And i was just like, wow, that's not me.
00:17:48
Speaker
I don't know this woman. Regular old Janessa, regular, that's so funny. Old Janessa would never have done that, would said, oh, that's weird. I'm not going to hug a stranger. was going to that. So I wasn't in submission to...
00:18:01
Speaker
what God put on my heart but it's weird because God needed me to act in that moment it doesn't give me the glory it actually gives him the glory so I don't understand what she was going through I don't talk to her anymore, but I've thought, whoa, that's wild, you know?
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, cute. Cute story. um Okay, back to the list. No more
Understanding Hell and Spiritual Peace
00:18:25
Speaker
surprises. no worries. so this, again, is something that, well, i don't know I guess I have a very set belief.
00:18:35
Speaker
I've done a lot of, like, things research kind of research into what happens after people die. So I am like very set um on reincarnation. Like I am nearly 100% set on that.
00:18:52
Speaker
And I think I have evidence, but so that being my like core belief, I really struggle with the concept of hell, like eternal damnation like punnch consciousness hanging around after we die and being tortured or whatever or paying for sins in this life do you now believe in that or is my uh interpretation of hell wrong um that's also
00:19:26
Speaker
Yes and no, again. again, I'll go into it a little more. But so ah I literally put in my notes, yes, no, ha ha.
00:19:38
Speaker
So the Bible, it doesn't actually give a single consistent blueprint for hell. And I just want to point that out because we've seen it. ah theatrically depicted quite a bit in an art.
00:19:49
Speaker
um But rather the Bible actually paints more of like a composite picture through imagery and warnings. um So what i just said about how I used to subscribe to false realities of my thoughts,
00:20:01
Speaker
Um, like the example of thinking, Oh, is Amy mad at me and just running with that for days and just thinking, Oh my gosh, she's mad. I did something. So, um, overanalyzing things so much that I spiral to me, that is my own health.
00:20:18
Speaker
And I think again, like the devil isn't necessarily like out to get Amy you know it's not usually like that you know we're out to get Janessa you know it's not usually like that but it it can creep in as a as an energy when we forget who we are you know and who we are is really really supernatural if you think about it it's kind of wild.
00:20:44
Speaker
I'll talk about that later. But um when I place my value in earthly things like vanity, money, and my job, what people think of me, I've untethered my soul um from a creator.
00:20:57
Speaker
And what that means is my life can look really good on the outside because I can visually maintain it, but I can feel so lost, so helpless and so lonely on the inside.
00:21:08
Speaker
um And now that I recognize this, for me, this is the feeling of hell. For me, the feeling of hell is when I know that if that that if I were to lose my job, if I were to lose the way I looked, if I were to lose all my friends, that I don't know if I'd want to be here anymore.
00:21:29
Speaker
That's hell. That's hell. You know, and that's a personal hell for me. um you're kind of living how it could look different. and And some people don't have it.
00:21:42
Speaker
And that's kind of cool and wild. But um the opposite of that for me is when I know if I were to get in a car accident or were and look way different than I look now, let's say I'm unrecognizable, but still here,
00:21:58
Speaker
And if I were to go bankrupt, if I lost my job or if I lost my ability to work, and if every single friend turned their back on me saying, oh gosh, Janessa is a Christian. We can't be friends with her anymore.
00:22:10
Speaker
I know now that I would still be loved by God because he doesn't actually see us um the way we see people. God isn't looking at your external. The image that you're made of is in your heart.
00:22:22
Speaker
So he actually is examining your heart and intentions. And he sees into you. So if all else fails, which as we grow older, these pillars are going to crumble. You will not look the way you look. You will not move the way you move. You someday will not have the job you have.
00:22:38
Speaker
And the friends you have will die. And they will leave. And some of them will remain close. you know But that's the truth. That is real truth. And we don't want to talk about it. um But if all that goes,
00:22:50
Speaker
I will be sad, I will be devastated, but I will also know that I am attached to something bigger than me and so are those people, whether or not they recognize it um And, you know, thank God for that because someday i won't physically exist and that attachment is all there will be.
00:23:12
Speaker
ah What you're saying, though, Amy, I personally struggle with concepts of hell. And again, that there's no blueprint for it in the Bible. But I think hell is when your soul is not at peace.
00:23:25
Speaker
And so whether your hell is right here right now or if you don't say what you mean and you don't move in your life with integrity, then I've heard it a lot from people that some people in their deathbed have all these regrets of what they didn't do.
00:23:45
Speaker
hope We hear it a lot like, oh, I should have just done that trip. I should have just said that thing I felt. I should have just left that marriage sooner. you know I should have, all this kind of stuff. I would really, really be sad to be on my deathbed thinking I didn't do this authentically. And to me, when I'm going out, that is not the way I want to go out. And to me, that is another version of hell.
00:24:10
Speaker
Other thing I want to explain there real quick is I think people create these experiences that feel like hell. And they're not. Because what the body goes through is that's like torture in some things, you know.
00:24:25
Speaker
And that's pretty... abuse, like abuse is very real, but when it comes down to a spiritual level, like you are just disturbed or you can't figure out why you have everything you ever wanted and you feel empty, welcome.
00:24:45
Speaker
It sucks there, you know, and that's the truth. And so whether or not we continue to go into a realm where our soul needs to
Grace and Acceptance in Christianity
00:24:56
Speaker
repent. I i don't.
00:24:58
Speaker
I don't personally believe that. And mostly because the more you read the Bible, the more you're going to learn the nature of God more. and yeah God wants very badly to love you.
00:25:10
Speaker
And later on sends his son, and which is another form of himself, to earth. And what he does is He writes those sins. So in the Old Testament where we hear kind of more of like a internal condemnation, eternal condemnation, later what we get is grace.
00:25:31
Speaker
And it's like, oh, I don't want this for you. Like, I want. you to be able to come to me even if you've done the most awful worldly things. And as long as you look me in the eyes and you look my whole court of angels and all the other ethereal things that God has, you look them in the eye and you say, i am so sorry.
00:25:52
Speaker
But remember, God doesn't see the outside. He doesn't hear words. He examines your heart. So if you are not truly sorry, then I can't tell you what God does with that. But I believe he works wonders and miracles with people. So no, I don't ah don't really believe that people sit in this hell.
00:26:10
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Good. Good. okay Okay. The money question. how do you feel about the gays now? Okay, so I loved this question when Amy sent it to me.
00:26:25
Speaker
Because she was like, how do you feel about the gays? And the way that was worded, I was like, I feel pretty good about them. I feel pretty good about the gays. But i love good I love this question.
00:26:37
Speaker
And um I feel pretty good about people, to be honest, no matter their sexual preference and what that is. So da to give you biblical context,
00:26:49
Speaker
And again, in the first episode, like I said, if you didn't listen to that, what are you doing here? Pause. Go back. I mentioned there it's important to research and it is our duty, our due diligence to understand our faith and the roots of it and who it was written for at its time and the context it was written in.
00:27:11
Speaker
And this is one of the biggest reasons why I preach that. you can't You can just read the Bible and be like, oh, what? And then just never learn more about it. You could do that, but what a disservice to yourself to do that.
00:27:26
Speaker
So, and to others. So to give you biblical context, it's important to research, like I said, and to get to know God's nature through scripture. So the word, I want to give us just a little history and theology here. So the word homosexuality was actually coined by Carl Maria Kent Benny on May 6, 1868.
00:27:46
Speaker
in an attempt to categorize varying sexualities at that time in 1868. So the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, was written in a time spanning from the 8th century BCE to the 1st century CE, and the New Testament was written between 45 AD and 95 AD, which means the word and the categorization of homosexuality did not exist back then.
00:28:09
Speaker
because it was far from being created. Far. Light years. the original text of the Bible, which is in Hebrew and Greek, does address some forms of same-sex activities, but it uses terms that are directlyqui that are not directly equivalent to homosexuality, and as we know and understand it today.
00:28:30
Speaker
So today, it's ah it's very different than even when it started and so when it was coined by Carl it was coined because in a letter he couldn't think of a word of how to explain his friend meeting men who were into men he he didn't know so he was like oh so he tried to put root words together so I think that's really interesting So um how the term homosexual came into the Bible was when the Revised Standard Version, which is RSV, was published, and that was published in 1946. So these words that were often replaced, which we see in Corinthians, which is quoted a lot for people who
00:29:15
Speaker
use faith as a scapegoat to press their own beliefs on what is good and what is not good on people use this passage a lot. um But the words that were replaced with homosexual homosexuality were the words effinate and all abusers of themselves with mankind.
00:29:37
Speaker
um So also in Leviticus, which is used a lot, and and that's 18, ah Chapter 18, verse 22, it states, you shall not lie with a male as with a woman.
00:29:48
Speaker
And scholars, to this day, they still argue that the original meaning may be more narrowing narrow and condemning to specific male-on-male sexual violence.
00:30:00
Speaker
So unconsenting, basically rape. So Yeah, so it why, you know, like it's so, ah it's so important. It's so important to research. It's so important to understand.
00:30:12
Speaker
But now that I've given you some history and theology, let me just tell you what I truly think. I truly believe like God loves us all in ways that are above my own understanding. His ways are above my ways. I cannot comprehend them fully.
00:30:28
Speaker
And personally, I've come to realize that a person's sexual preferences are literally the least interesting part about them is the least interesting part about you to me um the thing i love about you and the things I find most interesting about everyone are things that have nothing to do with who you'd prefer to have sex with and who you're attracted to because that's all worldly and that's okay there's a place in time for that but like I'm more moved and interested in what brings you joy, what actually makes you laugh, what you truly find funny.
00:31:06
Speaker
I'm more interested in what drives you to want to help others or what drives you away from wanting to help others. And because these are these glimpses of like joy, what truly, truly brings you joy, what truly, truly brings you a good laugh.
00:31:23
Speaker
What makes you feel at home amongst strangers in a place you've not been before? What makes you feel comfortable there, if anything? and And I'm more interested in these because my perspective has shifted that truly these are glimpses of heaven to me.
00:31:40
Speaker
And I can see heaven in all people who are willing to be open. And so, yeah, again, i i would venture to say that And I mean this for every single form of sexuality out there.
00:31:57
Speaker
If your sexuality is your only identity, If everything you do is because you're straight, if everything you do is because you're queer or you're gay or you're in the LGBTQ and a community or everything you do is because you're monogamous or everything you do is because you're polyamorous, then you have placed your value in something that is still changing and you've placed attraction.
00:32:25
Speaker
attraction and and what you want to get out of other people, whether that be just to watch them, whether that means to interact with them. And I would venture to say, if you get lost your identity so deeply in anything you're attracted to, I'm talking to anyone. I'm not just talking how I feel about the gays, how the straights, anybody, then babe, I really hope you pull yourself out of it because there will come a time where we get really old and sexual activities will become difficult. And I will hope by then you will have chosen a partner or partners that see heaven in you because all there will be left someday is the joy you brought each other.
00:33:02
Speaker
And so, yeah, I would just venture to say don't get lost in these earthly identities. Yeah. and Okay. I thought i assumed that there must be,
00:33:15
Speaker
some workaround to the the whole homosexuality is a sin thing because um I watched an episode of Queer Eye where the person on it was a reverend at a church yeah and was gay. yeah So i was like, there's no way they'd let him do that if you really couldn't be gay and live
Historical Context of Homosexuality in the Bible
00:33:37
Speaker
biblically. good.
00:33:38
Speaker
And craziest part is just so that we historically kind of cleared that up, So in 1946, when the RSV version came out of the Bible, I want to also say that, like, LGBTQ community hadn't quite formed the way it has, the way we know it now. Doesn't mean it didn't exist.
00:34:01
Speaker
It just hadn't. Yeah. It hadn't found its foothold and its understanding of... of who was in this space um publicly. And so when this word was used, it wasn't necessarily used the way we think it is.
00:34:16
Speaker
and And so it was an attempt to make the Bible more understandable, which is already very difficult sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes it is.
00:34:27
Speaker
And it was by human error that someone who actually didn't have an ill intention uh, for this to blow up and be used like that to try and simplify something that people had found difficult to understand.
00:34:40
Speaker
But unfortunately, um, it has had really sad repercussions. and And even that person tried to get it removed out of the Bible, but at that time it had been, it had kind of toppled enough. It snowballed enough into other versions and remained published.
00:34:55
Speaker
So, um, Yeah, so that, I mean, no youre know your theology because god God loves everyone and everyone's made in his image. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Okay, next one is something I'm personally quite interested in.
Sexual Intimacy and Evolving Beliefs
00:35:15
Speaker
Do you, well, yeah, so I think my understanding is that the Bible really explicitly says that, yeah, sex is for within the confines of marriage or like um you know a marriage bed should be pure like that sort of thing i've read i've to my knowledge that's quite explicitly stated in the bible um so would you say that you now believe that sex belongs only in marriage Um, this one's really interesting. And when I was doing my research on this and really considering how I feel, i have to tell you, I don't, I don't know.
00:35:54
Speaker
i don't know. This is what I'm going to evolve with. This safe space. This a safe space. You can tell us how you really here's how I feel right now. it's yeah So one, I'm going to start again, theologically that in the Bible, there is no exact phrase that says no sex before marriage.
00:36:10
Speaker
So it's not used. However, this notion is often seen as like supported by verses about sexual immorality and also seen throughout scripture of sexual intimacy being reserved for marriage.
00:36:21
Speaker
um And I would go on. Um, i I could go on about the covenant of marriage, but I'm not going to do that. That could be a whole other episode. but But marriage, we just think it's a word now, a lot of us, um because it's been integrated into society in such ways.
00:36:37
Speaker
But it's actually a biblically sacred covenant that God created for two people and himself. um So you're in agreement with that person and God, meaning you you what you do to that person or directly in your marriage, you do unto God and you want to be respectful.
00:36:55
Speaker
So um my personal take is i wish I had encountered men who wanted to actually know my soul before getting to know my body. And I think sex is a really vital aspect of our lives, but we're, we also know sex is a part of our health and wellbeing as we've discussed in other episodes.
00:37:15
Speaker
And so I would say, consider for other people who are encountering this, consider sex with another person in terms of how it can impact your own physical, mental, and emotional and spiritual wellbeing.
00:37:29
Speaker
Um, if it poses a potential threat, to any of those categories, that should be a red flag to you. um And i it's hard it's hard. It's like, it's, you know, I didn't practice.
00:37:45
Speaker
I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't practice that, but in some strange way, i I wonder what it would be like to not have the sexual trauma that I do have.
00:37:57
Speaker
And what I mean by that is little t trauma. I don't have necessarily big t trauma. But like my first experience with sex was with like a man who is much older than me and in a authoritative position.
00:38:13
Speaker
And I was 17. And I thought it was really cool. i was like, oh my gosh, this grown man likes me, you know? ah But what I didn't know is by interacting sexually with this person, it would go on to shape the way I thought of men for years ah because he was not faithful and he wasn't a man of his word or didn't walk in any admirable actions when I was with him.
00:38:44
Speaker
um Because of that, it led me to question and to accuse other men who I was intimate with. And that wasn't fair to a lot of those other men ah because I do have people who I've been intimate with and in relationships with who actually were really good men.
00:39:05
Speaker
and And are still upstanding men. It didn't work out. It didn't work out. But truthfully, I, in those relationships, I was so insecure. And I was insecure because I had given my my myself spiritually to another person through sex.
00:39:23
Speaker
um yeah yeah so i don't i'm not here to tell you what you're doing is wrong i'm just here to say like whether or not you can see it now or you can consider it now just know that like when you have sex with people you are ah remember how we said the body becomes the tabernacle Like it becomes a sacred place for God. ah Be careful who you let into a sacred place because some people just want to get in there and wreck your temple and leave.
00:39:56
Speaker
And if you're up for that, you're up for that. But I got tell you, I don't, and dont I I've, I've repented. I meaning I've felt a shift in my heart and mind of how I think of people.
00:40:07
Speaker
And I would rather know them on a soul level before a sexual level. Yeah. And now i'm married, so baby, I got soul and and that. So yeah this is never an issue for her. No, no, we're good. the marriage The marriage came before the Christianity for Janessa Sue. did, yeah.
00:40:27
Speaker
Yeah, I've, I, Sue, I understand what you're saying. Like, I think ah it kind of like goes without saying or it feels very obvious to say like,
00:40:40
Speaker
za You're a better off and sex is healthier when you're doing it with someone who cares about you and has morals. Like, um yes.
00:40:55
Speaker
but ah that Basically, I just want to take a sec to acknowledge that that's like... not that Not that we were ever on here being like, go out and fuck everyone. But I don't think we ever said anything like that. But we obviously had episodes that were giving a a message that like isn't completely aligned to what you just said. 100%. Yeah. And then that's what I mean by the repentance. In my heart and in my mind...
00:41:23
Speaker
I cannot unsee what I've now seen of people, which is that people are just so much more exceptional and interesting than their physical. And um I couldn't quite see that previously.
00:41:41
Speaker
And ah in the way I do now, in the light I do now, and I mean, I'm not here to judge anyone because I've done a lot, you know, but um but truly now what I would say, you know, thinking back to those episodes is like, one, I love...
00:42:00
Speaker
the experts we've had on and I think they're valid and I think they have really good information and I think that pleasure is an important part of life ah but if you're seeking pleasure over knowledge of somebody and who they really are um yeah that's where the issue is and then again if you're seeking pleasure over your own safety and health and well-being that's where the issue is Yeah, 100%.
00:42:25
Speaker
hundred percent Yeah. and okay final question for today, which is so interesting.
Reconciling Science and Faith
00:42:34
Speaker
How are you reconciling? I feel like my voice was so sarcastic then and it sounded like i do it was not genuine.
00:42:41
Speaker
Sometimes I check myself and I'm like, that comes across as sounding so not genuine. But guys, I'm genuinely excited, yeah okay? it's just my It's just my dry British voice. um how How are you reconciling science like the Big Bang, which is supposedly proven, and like dinosaurs, which is supposed supposedly proven,
00:43:01
Speaker
And I have the best time winding up Edouard. Like my partner is like studied geology, like loves dinosaurs. And i'm i like I just love teasing him and being like supposedly when people talk about dinosaurs because, you know, if we haven't seen it with our own eyes, it's all science is just a theory till it's proven. So.
00:43:21
Speaker
um But anyway, so we finished the question. How are you reconciling science, like the Big Bang and what it says in the Bible? Yeah. So, okay. So first of all, I just want to say you know, Big Bang and what it, and, oh, I'm sorry, my brain got twisted.
00:43:37
Speaker
What we know about the Big Bang um and what we know about creationism, we just have to really take a moment in this podcast just to, you just to laugh at the fact that those are our two primary theories.
00:43:50
Speaker
Like, both of those are so whack. Like, both are whack. Like, literally. Like, and no disrespect, because I think creationism is beautiful, but to think that we have deduced to these as our two primary theories,
00:44:03
Speaker
um thoughts is really spectacular to me so um one thing I'd want to say is like okay so I know that this is kind of an exaggeration but I think the big bang is really interesting because it's almost like a version birth of a planet where nothing comes out of nothing and we don't know how but it just does so a planet is birthed from nothing So that's a virgin birth.
00:44:32
Speaker
And um it's really interesting because if you think of it that way, by some miracle that just ah we just happen to exist.
00:44:45
Speaker
And by some miracle that we need everything we needed. to survive was originally provided on our planet in terms of nourishment. And by some miracle, there's these animals who can live symbiotically and care for the planet.
00:45:06
Speaker
That is a lot of miracles. That's a lot. That's a lot of miracles there, babe. like Whoa. Yeah. And no, I have to say, as ah someone who is agnostic, as I've said, nature is one of the biggest arguments for me for there actually being a creator that had intention. Mm-hmm. It for exactly the reasons I'm sure Janessa is going to explain. But it is. this is one of the This is one of the big things for me that makes me actually believe that there was a creator. And so it's interesting because, like, then also, like, being created, like, creationism, um would mean being uniquely crafted, which we do hear in the Bible, that you are uniquely crafted in the image of God. And we all have different fingerprints, which I just want to point out that I think that's wild.
00:45:57
Speaker
And when I say uniquely crafted, like, no... two people have the same fingerprints. Like that blows my mind. Like how can we have that many variations? um Yet we share general features with one another by some miracle.
00:46:10
Speaker
There's some semblance of, oh, you're also human. And as much as I love and respect and appreciate science, science doesn't, have a process to prove or disprove the existence of God because science studies and attempts to explain only the natural world, while God in most religions is supernatural above this world. yeah um So I love Einstein. I always found him intriguing, fascinating.
00:46:36
Speaker
And Einstein has an essay called Science and Religion that was published in 1954. I haven't finished this, so I can't give you my full synopsis on it, but it is very, very heady and interesting. ah But in it, he says, and I would agree with this, that science without religion is lame and that religion without science is blind.
00:46:54
Speaker
But at the end of the day, if you aren't in awe of the miracle of just simply existing and existing in a planet with beauty, some weird animal kingdom order, power, and true wonder, spectacularness, then I just pray that you can remember that you are literally a living miracle.
00:47:16
Speaker
Like you there is no reason other than a miracle that you're here. whether that be the Big Bang, whether that be creationism. So if, like, just to kind of candidly speak on that, like, I think the more I look at science and I look at the world, the more i encounter God consistently.
00:47:38
Speaker
Because science reaches this brink where we can't comprehend anymore and where it continues to just be theory. um and And the other thing too I want to say is it's like that's the whole another thing about faith is that faith means that just because you can't you see it does not mean it does not exist.
00:48:04
Speaker
and And I feel that way on a very small level about an autoimmune disease because people can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's all it's all happening. I'm tired. I'm puffy.
00:48:16
Speaker
I feel it. You don't see it. But that is my reality, you know, and that's a really silly example, but it's true to me. And um I guess to say, you know, how I'm reconciling is I'm reconciling that science is amazing, that I could never be against science.
00:48:34
Speaker
science completely and that I think that it's really awesome that dinosaurs were here and just because the Bible is like yeah just because the Bible didn't account for dinosaurs specifically doesn't mean it didn't account for that.
00:48:51
Speaker
Like, if you think God created the environment, he created all flying creatures, all the creatures that creep and crawl, it says. um He created just all these creatures, right?
00:49:03
Speaker
But the Bible is written to mankind. It's not written to dinosaurs. It's not written to whales. So also geographically, where where they're at, I don't really know much about that area prior to the Old Testament, but it may have just been not applicable to that Jewish culture or time then, you know?
00:49:28
Speaker
And so, like I said, science is a beautiful, wonderful thing, but science requires faith too. Mm-hmm.
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah. Nice. But yeah, but just be in awe for a second that you exist. Like that is cray cray. cray. frank craig yeah It cray cray.
00:49:50
Speaker
Us existing and just the whole workings of the world is crazy the fact iss like animals that eat the other animals and like the fact that there's creatures that exactly match the environment that they live in I'm sure there's like someone that knows about science that's like oh that's kind of easily be explained this process but to me it can't be explained okay um ah case ah go oh it's I was gonna say it's interesting though because when I was in school um my school only taught
00:50:24
Speaker
the big bang theory there was no mention of creationism so actually i went 29 years believing that we got here from the big bang and even though the theory is in the title i was like no we know this it's fact um we still don't actually know we still don't know so it was just funny that my teachers never gave us alternative thoughts around this and they only taught and pushed Big Bang Theory.
00:50:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that the that's just, like, they're they just have to teach what they're told to teach, kind of. Yeah.
00:51:07
Speaker
I bet there were some teachers there, like, their insides were screaming. Yeah. This might not be true. Yeah. Yeah. But also, you know, the other thought, I was talking to my husband. um We drove home really late last night for my brother's graduation, but we were just talking about this clothes, like,
00:51:26
Speaker
you know, can we just open this up again? He was like, yeah. And we were just saying how it almost feels more believable at times for us to believe the Big Bang Theory because it's so beyond us and because we can't comprehend space and time outside of our you our world, um that it seems more plausible that because I don't fully grasp or understand this, that it's got to be that.
00:51:51
Speaker
Because... something like a creationism or like the virgin birth of Jesus that feels almost too close sometimes. I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't know, you know, but the more we kind of went down the rabbit hole together, the more we were like, gosh, it's so interesting that like we could concede to just believe that by many, many miracles we got here instead of the handful of miracles.
00:52:21
Speaker
you know yeah So it's just interesting. It's it's food for thought. And and i like I said, science is amazing. Faith is amazing. And they they both meet uniquely when neither can explain something, but only you could feel something.
00:52:42
Speaker
It's pretty amazing. Yeah, it's kind of like science and faith are same, same, but different, right? Kind of. It's all just someone coming up with something and then enough people believing in it. Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's exactly what Christianity is. It's exactly what science is. um Okay, cool.
Exploring Christianity with Curiosity
00:53:01
Speaker
Well, I'm going to spend some time... with chat gpt now i think um asking asking chat gpt questions about christianity and all these things because it's really fun i highly recommend like if you want to explore a topic like this ask chat gpt and it it brings back like evidence and it's really fun um so i've been doing that a lot so i'm gonna do that now yeah
00:53:32
Speaker
Thank you, Janessa. You're so welcome. And again, just like like, I guess I feel moved to say it is like, these questions are amazing. And our first episode was amazing. But I promise you, there's so much that I cannot articulate or comprehend that is shifting and changing in my life.
00:53:50
Speaker
as we speak that um no words would do it justice and just like all for me the glory just goes to God and how things are moving in my life and um it doesn't your faith journey doesn't have to make sense to other people for it to make sense to you or for it to be valid for you because no one can tell you how you feel and yeah Yeah. So I would just whatever.
00:54:19
Speaker
Again, you know, we focus on Christianity, but like we talked about the Old Testament and um I have so much respect for Jewish culture and Jewish tradition because ah for in Christianity, I worship a Jewish man.
00:54:35
Speaker
but Jesus grew up a Jewish man and went through all the sacred ceremonies as well. And so that's something I've been taking time to learn about and respect. um So I have a lot of appreciation for Jewish culture um and Jewish tradition and religion.
00:54:52
Speaker
And it even if I don't fully agree when it comes to the New Testament or how Jesus is seen i can fully respect um other people's beliefs on that because all I'm called to do is is really love my neighbors whether or not they believe in the same thing as me so no yeah no superiority there it's not a I'm right you're wrong for me it's just a I'm a human and this is where I found God yeah oh nice yeah okay let's wrap it up and i will also say just for anyone that is not a christian it's this isn't to say that every episode of the wounded healers now is going to be about christianity we're just having a fun time ah exploring this and it's piquing my interest um
00:55:43
Speaker
And we wanted to do today's episode because we thought there's bound to be some of you that were wondering the same questions I asked, having known Janessa or felt like you knew Janessa for the years that we've been doing this. And to see that change in her, I can imagine there were some of you that were like, oh, my God.
00:56:02
Speaker
do you think Janessa believes in the devil now? None of you thought that. ah yeah But yeah, we just thought this would be a fun thing to dive into. But that's not to say that our agenda is always going to be yeah Christianity. Yeah.
00:56:17
Speaker
We'll do some normal stuff too. And then one more thing, I'm so sorry, I have to get it off my head and chest is um something I wanted to say that I just genuinely ah feel of my heart is that I really wish people to seek our relationship with God.
00:56:33
Speaker
But seek your relationship with God over seeking religion. So first start with your relationship. And if you feel called to walk in faith in a certain religion, research, be mindful, um try it out.
00:56:48
Speaker
That's allowed. you're not committed to anything um and so try that out and if that brings you closer to the god you have formed a personal relationship via scripture or other methods then you can discern whether or not that's right for you but first seek seek god first seek it on your own terms and then get to know get to know him through scripture And how have you researched
Resources for Theological Research
00:57:15
Speaker
the most? Like what tools and resources have you used for your research? Yeah, so honestly, the without the Bible, there wouldn't be any research here for me. So yeah you you have to if you're wanting to.
00:57:28
Speaker
um understand Judaism, you need to be in parts of the Old Testament, which is in their Torah. And you also, if you're seeking to understand Mormonism, you need to be in the Bible as well, because they're also pulling from that. If you seek to understand Muslims, you need to also get to know the Bible.
00:57:50
Speaker
um They have different variations to their beliefs. So there are some pretty big variations, but all are pulling from and a basically like original text there are of course some differences but if you read the bible it will leave you thinking what did I just read and when you feel that way just let yourself read it and come back to it and then pick it apart but don't try and pick everything apart at once um read it just to know yeah read it like you're reading a story and I know it sounds silly because it's more than a story to me
00:58:26
Speaker
But if that's what it takes, read it like you're reading a story, build curiosity and build questions that come back throughout with more of an academic or a personalized lens and um do your research. And when I say do your research, there are tons of theologists out there and theo luf theologians, pardon of me, not theologists.
00:58:46
Speaker
theologians out there and their whole lives are committed to studying sacred texts from all cultures and it is a vast sea of information and okay yeah what we reached was just like a dew drop of that so um there's so much out there and allow yourself to be curious and open Yeah.
00:59:07
Speaker
So if someone's reading the Bible and they're just like, what does that mean? You think they just Google that verse? You can. That's a good start. But yeah um i really like, um let me just make sure I'm saying her name right.
00:59:21
Speaker
So I found this girl on Instagram who I really love. And I'm not saying run to Instagram. She has a newsletter and I would subscribe to that because she has theologists on her podcast frequently.
00:59:33
Speaker
And the that is called Biblically Heard, which is her podcast. And her name's Cassian Bellino. And she is a Christian, but her her thoughts were, oh, I've followed the Bible my whole life and I haven't investigated it enough. So let me bring in world scholars. Like they're truly renowned scholars on her podcast who are shedding light on many different perspectives.
00:59:57
Speaker
And she doesn't just stick to the Christian faith. She has a rabbi come in. um and talk about things in the Old Testament. So you kind of get a nice rounded aspect to this.
01:00:10
Speaker
um However, i also personally really like Wesley Huff and he studies language and um specifically studies. oh gosh, I'm not going to remember this word. He studies how to interpret text that has become separated through erosion.
01:00:28
Speaker
So by putting it together and accounting for the spaces and the margins and then trying to figure out through scientific methods what those missing words are. And if they can't, then they're honest that they can't figure that out.
01:00:41
Speaker
and he's very fascinating. I would check him out. I would also say there's the Jerusalem, um there's like a scholarly article I read from called like the Jerusalem Post, and that's more of like academic papers, and then also there's the Oxford, um it's Oxford Journal, and if you were feeling touched or convicted, meaning you feel like like personally you're being pulled to look this up you're being called to I would say with LGBTQ stuff and um people who are not in heterosexual relationships and how that plays into the Bible Oxford Academics has a really good research paper on this and um they also have a book that they suggest that I'm going to read called Reforming Sodom and it's by Heather R. White and so that just investigates how the Bible came to speak about homosexuality in the first place in 1946
01:01:37
Speaker
um Those are some places you can start. um Cool. Get curious, though. Get curious. Stay open. What was the first one, Biblically Heard? Biblically Heard, like you're hearing something.
01:01:50
Speaker
And that's by Cassian Bellino. And um I personally appreciate that. And um there's also... There's other people I follow out there, but they have, a they really do have a bias. So I follow this woman named Monty and she's really cool, but she has been just completely shattered by the people within her church she grew up with.
01:02:15
Speaker
And so her, she's seeking to kind of. highlight aspects of the Bible that are just like taken out of place now, but she's not interested in religion anymore. So, but well, I should say she's interested in religion, but not the way that a believer would be.
01:02:30
Speaker
So my thing is I like to know those perspectives because I think they're very important and well-rounded as
Conclusion and Gratitude
01:02:37
Speaker
well. Like in order for me to be in my faith walk, one, I needed to protect my peace and my space while getting to have a relationship with God.
01:02:47
Speaker
Now that I have an active relationship with God that's still strengthening, I feel confident and comfortable enough to hear other opinions or theories about why that didn't work for someone. And and I think I owe it to people who have um church hurt or people really church hurt comes down to people hurt, it comes down to people taking a good thing and using it wrongly isn't that what we just heard about satan anyway sorry um so you know i think i owe it out of respect to people to investigate those experiences because i can't say that this didn't happen for someone i can't tell them they didn't feel that so um i just have listen openly um and use that as kind of a little bit of like guardrails on how i see faith and how i see other people in faith
01:03:37
Speaker
yeah cool okay thank you for answering all my questions and being open of course anyway just thank you all for being here again it's such a pleasure to be here and uh amy already said it but don't worry and not every episode will be me coming in here like jesus said ah God said the Bible well you know don't worry but it's important that you do know about this because a part of my authentic walk now is not um it's not kind of holding myself back and and I've I've had a huge change of heart and a change of mind and it's gonna show in the way that I respond to future episodes so while I might not respond biblically I you might wonder wait
01:04:22
Speaker
why has Janessa changed her tune on this a little bit? Or why isn't she as excited in this topic as she used to be? um You know, nothing, nothing wrong with those topics, but just wanted to say, I'll be moving differently in my life. And um that's why.
01:04:39
Speaker
Love it. We respect it. We love and respect it. Thanks, guys. I love and respect you. and Anyway, well, I guess we'll see you back here in two weeks, you guys. It feels like a lifetime, even though it's not really a lifetime.
01:04:52
Speaker
ah But until then, remember to let the light in. Bye. Bye.