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Episode 61: Presence & Potentail
44 Plays4 months ago
In this episode Amy & Janessa dive into a thoughtful discussion inspired by Presence and Potential by Martha Creek. Join us while we explore practical ways to navigate disagreements-approaches that allow us to stand firmly in our own beliefs while honoring the humanity and perspective of others. It's about creating space for understanding without feeling the need to take on someone else's views.
Book link: Presence and Potential by Martha Creek.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CL4XQ36R/?bestFormat=true&k=presence%20and%20potential%20martha%20creek&ref_=nb_sb_ss_w_scx-ent-pd-bk-d_de_k0_1_16&crid=8SMYKXCIT87H&sprefix=presence%20and%20pot
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Wounded Healers podcast.
00:00:10
Speaker
I'm Janessa. And I'm Amy. We were brought together by our shared wound of an autoimmune condition in our early 20s. This is a place where we explore our wounds with our listeners and guests who recognize the challenges of being human in hopes of helping all of us let the light in.
00:00:28
Speaker
hi everybody, welcome back to the Wounded Healers podcast. My name's Amy and I'm here with Janessa. Hey everyone, happy to be back here. And do you know what I realized the other day when I was editing? I was like, we actually introduce ourselves in our the intro.
00:00:47
Speaker
You know, like the pre-recorded intro. I kind of like listened to it again for the first time, like since we recorded it. And I was like, yeah, we literally introduce ourselves. And then we charge introduce ourselves every episode as well. Just so there can be no confusion.
00:01:01
Speaker
Just, yeah. Just in case you were really curious. Again, we might... Might have to stop introducing ourselves and just get into it.
Cultural Differences and Product Critiques
00:01:10
Speaker
That's true. That's true. it'll It'll be a big feat when we get there.
00:01:14
Speaker
I'll try and remember next time but hi everybody we hope you're doing good things are good with us we're saying god I was gonna default to the weather but allow it okay I'm British you have to let me it's sunny for the first time since last year feel this weekend um we're recording on what is it like the 9th or the 10th of March um um and yeah it's gonna be 18 degrees tomorrow we're all very excited in england someone at my office was talking about doing a barbecue i was like okay i think hold your horses on that let me um find out for janessa what 18c is in yeah so she can understand how insane is to have a barbecue 64 degrees fahrenheit
00:02:03
Speaker
oh would you be wrong would you be eat cooking and eating outside 64 degrees uh probably not um but if it was like the fourth of july or something yeah but um no probably not no not on a random not on a random sunday But we let the people do what they want.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yeah. i Make their own choices. oh This the topic of today's episode. It is. is. Not barbecues. Nope. Making your own choices. Do what you want. Let the people do it.
00:02:38
Speaker
But before we get into ah very in-depth episode today, we are going to take you on a into the shallower shallower end of the pool with a hot or not that I am bringing to the table. Okay.
00:02:51
Speaker
And you guys, if you are in California, then you may have noticed that ah we have these new Starbucks cups. And you guys, when I say like what we're about to talk about next like trumps everything that I'm saying about a stupid paper cup.
00:03:05
Speaker
But these cups. are compostable, which is great for the earth. Don't get me wrong. I love the earth. I love all the creatures. But for some reason, it looks like I am drinking out of freaking soup cup. And I hate it. i absolutely hate these new cups. They're very ugly. And they leak. They leak. So, Amy, do you guys have this in the UK? If so, is it is it hot or not? Like, I could see how someone could make this trendy. But I'm struggling. and Yeah.
00:03:34
Speaker
So I'm pretty confident I'm looking at Janessa's Starbucks cup right now. So i know the exact point of reference. I don't think we have these in the UK yet with that like the flat top.
00:03:50
Speaker
But I am pretty confident that we have invented compostable material that gets formed like plastic. So our cups, they are, for all intents purposes, the same plastic formed thing with like the little beaker.
00:04:09
Speaker
But they're just compostable, you know, they're like a little bit like, they're not pure white like plastic is, they're a bit like... pulpy and stuff like that and a bit thinner, but they're still compostable.
00:04:20
Speaker
So we don't have the same, i think the issue is the fact that it's flat, right? Yeah, it's like, it literally looks like I got a to-go thing of soup at like a soup deli and they just like cut a little mouth hole for me and punched a little hole for like, I don't know, condensation.
00:04:36
Speaker
And yeah, no, it is totally flat. And I know the material you're talking about because we do that with straws here. Like they remade straws like that. So yeah, this leads me even more to not like this new Starbucks cup.
00:04:48
Speaker
I feel like they did us dirty. But this is, is it paper? It is. Yeah. It's like literally paper. Yeah. It's like the same as the coffee. Yeah. Yeah. It's paper and it's got some like wax on the inside, which doesn't seem to work well. yeah, it's just the same as the cup.
00:05:03
Speaker
um Yeah. That's not hot. That's not hot. It's cheap. yeah It's cheap and lazy. It's not hot. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm going to go with
Productivity and Meditation Practices
00:05:14
Speaker
it. It's definitely not hot either. so And you're going have like bits of the paper coming off into your mouth from the mouth hole.
00:05:22
Speaker
Probably if I don't drink this quick enough, yeah. Which you never do, which you famously have a coffee for eight hours. It's so true.
00:05:33
Speaker
The disintegration you're going to get on that lid is going to be... I'm just drinking paper. Maybe just don't have, maybe just while you're in your home, get rid of the lid, maybe.
00:05:45
Speaker
i think that's the way to go. Not now, because obviously it's keeping the heat in your coffee while we record, but yes later on. Also, did you go out this morning to Starbucks before we recorded? So actually this morning, guys, I woke up at seven.
00:06:00
Speaker
i didn't have an alarm for it. I just did. and then I walked the dog. I meditated. And I went and got myself a Starbucks and I was so happy. I was like, dang, look what I can do. Also, I gave up Instagram for 40 days and it has just produced more of a want to do things for me.
00:06:22
Speaker
Like truly, like I just was like, oh, I have time that I'd usually sit and look at Instagram in the morning. And I was like going to walk the dog, going meditate, going to get some coffee and then I came back and I still had like 20 minutes until we recorded and I felt just like, wow, I just did a day's work in an hour. She freaking sent me the invite half an hour early. I was like, who is this and what's happened to Janessa? I was like, who's kidnapped Janessa and is pretending to be her? like twice if you need help wow that's amazing um that giving up social media you're getting so much more out of your day um and i also want to ask what are you using to meditate these days oh god sorry my ring just yeah so using to meditate oh all good um okay so what i'm using to meditate right now so
00:07:14
Speaker
Amy, you told me about this app, but there's Glorify and they do a daily walk with God, but I treat that as a meditation. And I personally, um again, mine is going to be more kind of Christ-centered right now with where I'm at in my life, but I use the Halo app.
00:07:28
Speaker
And they have a ton of meditations on there. oh Yeah, it's so good. um However, if you're looking for something like non-denominational or just in spirit and, you know, whatever, just getting your morning going, there's something called Resonate Breath that I use.
00:07:45
Speaker
And it's a timer that you breathe in and you breathe out and it times it for like... I don't know, you can do five to 10 minutes and it helps you reset your nervous system. And it's just um the picture is just an outline of a human being with lungs that fill up and out as you breathe in. And that one's really nice. You don't have to have any religious views to be able to breathe.
00:08:07
Speaker
So, yeah, it's good. Yeah. Cool. There's three nice selections there. Isn't the Hallow app like very like Hail Mary, like say three Hail Marys, like the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost?
Spirituality and Book Introduction
00:08:23
Speaker
It just depends. Yes, it is more of a Catholic vibe, but it's open everyone. um Yesterday, my meditation was led by Mark Wahlberg and Chris Pratt. And I was like, I did not know these are men of faith.
00:08:36
Speaker
um at all. um So yeah, I found that interesting. And yeah, yeah there are, I think the Halo app, what I found is you can choose kind of the degree of, um strictness you want with it so if you're looking for something that's very strict you can find it there um like hail mary's you know the rosary if you're looking to do that kind of catholicism but if you're looking for just open questions christianity in general and just a place to come to try and understand you know all that is there um it's also helpful for that but yeah you're right it has both so it can be a little jarring if you open up a hail mary when you're like i just wanted to meditate
00:09:16
Speaker
um and did you see as well sorry for anyone who isn't into their meditation apps um ah glorify at least in the uk they're gonna take daily walk with god out of the free subscription no yeah so watch out for that you might okay yeah my they might be doing it in the uk only because obviously you know much fewer christians over here whereas they might not he they might be getting such good engagement from the americans that they're they don't need to do that um but yeah okay that was maybe a sidetrack yeah well that's good to know i'll be prepared if it happens then i won't be heartbroken yeah well okay do you want tell us about today's episode yeah okay you guys so i'm pretty excited ah
00:10:06
Speaker
So along the route of spirituality in general and just open, not any religious bias, but I do go to a spiritual center on Sundays and it's called Unity Palo Alto. So shout out to them.
00:10:18
Speaker
um And it's open. It's non-denominational and you can... believe in God, universe, spirit, um and omnipotent energy, whatever calls to you is totally accepted and welcomed.
00:10:32
Speaker
So I love it for that. And one of the books that the Reverend there, John Riley is his name. So I have to give a shout out. Honor where honor is due.
00:10:42
Speaker
He has this book that he created a book group with by Martha Creek. That's the author. And it's called Presence and Potential. And in the little footnote, it says experience your higher self and live in wholeness.
00:10:56
Speaker
Um, it's a really beautifully done book. Uh, and I am not completed with it, but I am in their like study group. So I decided to drag Amy into this cause I was like, Amy, let me send you these pages.
00:11:11
Speaker
So we're going to be discussing chapters four and five from this book. And the chapters are really digestible. They're pretty short. um But specifically the topics are going to be on how do we hold our own beliefs and not give up how we feel about something while hearing about someone who maybe disagrees with us or shares different beliefs.
00:11:34
Speaker
And how do we hold our own and still respect them in that experience? And also how do we
Exploring Self-Awareness and Beliefs
00:11:40
Speaker
notice when we're trying to change someone by changing their views and opinions?
00:11:46
Speaker
So... Seems really relevant these days. So i was going to say, I know I need this. So I'm excited to kind of elaborate more on it with you all.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah, now more than ever. I was really intrigued as to how you came across this book because I looked it up, obviously, when you sent me the pages. i looked it up and it's just like by this sweet older woman who like she has a you she has a YouTube video, a YouTube channel with where she reads a chapter of her book just like sat on her sofa. as She's very cute.
00:12:20
Speaker
So I was intrigued as to how you found it because I was like, it's not like a big book that's been like published. You know, i well I'm sure it has been published, but you know, you didn't I know you didn't find it like the New York bestseller. Yeah, yeah yeah no, definitely. So, yeah, I found this ah kind of like a spiritual center. um and yeah I kind of I kind of like that she's not well known yet it just feels more authentic you know because yeah it's like oh she wrote this she got this published I don't even know she might have self-published I'm not sure so yeah and it's her like genuine message like I can I think you can tell sometimes when spiritual thought leaders are like
00:13:02
Speaker
just on their churn, right? And they're like on their like fifth book and they're like, what other topic can I like come up with? Because I need to publish another book and it's like very going over the same themes or like dragging themes into it that like aren't as relevant or whatever. So I can imagine that this book is really like good quality, heartfelt, insightful because it's not, you know, done by a huge thought leader.
00:13:30
Speaker
Definitely. That's what I gather too. And um yeah, so hopefully you guys can feel that through what we read to you all. What we're going to do is we're going to structure this by reading you the chapter. And I know that sounds really daunting if you're listening, but I promise you the chapter is only like three pages long. So it's very doable.
00:13:48
Speaker
um Again, bear with me because you know me and spelling and pronouncing things. so sure, there'll be a few mishaps along the way. But I am going to start with the chapter um We'll read, we'll discuss, we'll kind of break it down together. And then Amy will start with the next chapter and we'll read, discuss and break it down. So here we go.
00:14:07
Speaker
So chapter four is called profess my own values and beliefs without attacking or judging. And it says the key to mastering this skill is learning how to profess your own values and our own beliefs without expecting others to join us.
00:14:21
Speaker
without attacking others for their beliefs, without even judging others for their beliefs. Sounds impossible? It nearly is. It's a monumental accomplishment to actually profess your own beliefs in what work and what we are convinced of and not expect others to join us.
00:14:37
Speaker
To not expect you to do it my way, which is, quote, the right way. Your way is the wrong way and my way is the right way, right? So what's the problem? The problem is the pain that we create for ourselves when we're in a judging, attacking, coaching, counseling, mentoring state of mind.
00:14:56
Speaker
It's a painful when we try to do the impossible. It hurts when we try to get someone to change their beliefs, their own convictions. I can't even change my own personal beliefs versus them waking up to change in their own way.
00:15:10
Speaker
Let's look at this tool from a self-differentiation model. There was, folks. A measure of emotional and spiritual maturity or effective leadership model.
00:15:21
Speaker
How can we profess our own beliefs and values and not judge another for theirs? How can we not drop and displace our expectations onto another or to hold the expectations in right and wrong frame?
00:15:35
Speaker
I see it rightly before you're wrong. My way a good way. Therefore, yours is bad or wrong. As long as I'm framing situations in that way, there's always going to be something that matters that, oh, something that matter with me.
00:15:53
Speaker
There's always going to be the temptation to keep trying to do the impossible, to keep trying to change another person or to change another person's beliefs, attitudes, judgments, dispositions, and patterns.
00:16:05
Speaker
This could be no different from trying to teach a cat to bark or trying to turn a human being into a giraffe and then being frustrated as to why they're not changing. You know what's not frustrating?
00:16:17
Speaker
Looking inside at the empowerment and the possibility of me being the one who actually changes. I have a friend in certain groups. I have friends in certain groups an arenas and and causes that are very vegetarian.
00:16:34
Speaker
So, okay, sorry guys, I just read that, but her friend is very vegetarian and even veganism. They support the right of animals and are against the abusing of animals and exp exploitation exploitation of them or consuming of animal products in any way.
00:16:48
Speaker
over the years I've been challenged for eating meat. I absolutely can appreciate and understand their desire and their cause. I support causes that lean toward vegetarianism and veganism um and I support animal rescue sanctuaries and things like that and I still consume meat.
00:17:06
Speaker
While it is not my value or my decision um not to consume animal products, I absolutely can love and appreciate and understand it's somebody else's value and belief.
00:17:18
Speaker
and there's room for both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Another example of that is shaming. In my family, the elders shame the children. Shame on you. Shame on you.
00:17:29
Speaker
I'm aware of how deep that shame is, not only in my own psyche, but in the psyche of human beings as a species. This is deep, deep, deep, a deep well of shame, and it exists in us.
00:17:43
Speaker
Because of the meaning given to too shaming, it makes my skin kind of crawl to hear anybody shaming another. Although it's not my way, I can absolutely understand the belief that shaming is a way to teach, a way to break habits, and a way to break patterns.
00:18:00
Speaker
While it's not my belief, my value, or my way, it is certainly a way of some. My opposing others or judging or attacking them for their way only perpetuates more violence in this world.
00:18:15
Speaker
In essence, If we see another as wrong, then we're shaming them for shaming, blaming them for blaming, judging them for judging, or criticizing them for criticizing.
00:18:29
Speaker
When we fight against another person's beliefs, trying to eliminate these behaviors or minimize them in the world to create a world where there's action where these actions don't exist, we wind up perpetuating the very thing we claim we want to end or minimize in the world.
Self-Differentiation and Emotional Independence
00:18:47
Speaker
Oh my gosh, thanks for hanging in there, guys. ah got through. unscathed i feel every time i read out loud on the podcast i'm always facing like a really deep fear of when i was little in class and like they're like janessa your turn and i'd be like ah so thanks you good you do good see so yeah that was a lot in just three pages ah Or like, yeah.
00:19:14
Speaker
So yeah yeah, there is a lot of things that stood out to me, even just starting in the first page. And thankfully, Amy did some research into some of the terms here because, and I'm so grateful because sometimes, you know, I'm in like a study group going through this and I forget that I didn't know this too coming to it.
00:19:34
Speaker
So I'm so happy Amy looked that up for us. And before we hop into that, I wanted to say, I think it was really interesting on the first page, if you have the book, if not, just know when we said um in the book without expecting others to join us, without attacking others for their belief.
00:19:51
Speaker
This is such a difficult thing that I was thinking about because i was like, wow, when i gear up to talk to someone who triggers me or someone who I don't agree with what they're doing, a lot of the time I am not talking to them to understand I'm talking to them to make them understand me.
00:20:13
Speaker
And in doing that, I'm cutting off the whole point of connection. i just thought that was really interesting. No, that's so true because i I pulled that as a note for later.
00:20:27
Speaker
we need to practice active listening, like listen to understand what the person is saying, not listen to beat them or win.
00:20:38
Speaker
I think we miss out on a lot of like potential learning experiences, potential to be humbled and taught because we're so tunnel vision on getting our own viewpoint across and Yeah, was a really, really dangerous thing to be in, to to be listening to when not listening to understand.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, I am so guilty of that. Like, I just want to say, like, I am still working through that because I feel like from my experiences, I think it deeply roots from.
00:21:15
Speaker
not wanting to miss the moment like in school like if there was a question they're like who knows this like while the teacher is talking I'm like do I know like I'm not even fully listening I'm just like okay can I come up with this fact do I know it can I participate um But yeah, that kind of mentality, it's almost strange because for me, it goes hand in hand with this like anxiousness to be able to put my word in right after the next person, um which is so silly because it's okay to pause, you know, and it's ah the pause for me is scary because I'm afraid that the other person's going to kind of power up and start coming at me with all these words. And I'll be like, yeah.
00:22:00
Speaker
So, yeah. When pausing is actually like o oftentimes or like silence oftentimes is more powerful than words. Like I've done in, for my work before I've done professional like negotiation training. And one of the things they teach you in negotiation training is called the professional pause. And it's like, anytime if you're in a negotiation, anytime someone suggests something,
00:22:29
Speaker
you literally just like look them dead in the eye and keep like look them in the eye like they're stupid and just like keep silent because it rattles their faith in their argument, rattles like what they're suggesting. Like it's actually much more powerful than and even countering is silence. wow So maybe, i mean, you can reframe it that way. Like your mind tricking, Jedi mind tricking them with your silence. You're not like, you're not freaking out and like looking weak. it's You can actually look really strong in your silence.
00:22:59
Speaker
I love that. I love that so much. Yes. And i'm one of the words, oh, go on. No, no, no, you go I'm excited to hear. So one of the the words that like stood out to me or something that stands out to me a lot from this is the word attacking and And judging.
00:23:23
Speaker
But I feel like a lot of the time when someone else is expressing a belief, it actually comes from a loving place and it's from a place of love.
00:23:34
Speaker
So it's not like a... you're wrong in like a vicious, like ahs attacking way. I think it's a, you're wrong in a passionate way.
00:23:46
Speaker
And I desperately want you to believe the same as me because you'll be better off morally or you'll be better off like intellectually, whatever it is. um Yeah, I wonder, maybe she talks about it like differently in the book, but That's something I always think about when people are making a point. It comes from a place of wanting the opposing side or person to be better for it.
00:24:11
Speaker
Because you you think your belief is better than this. Yeah, I think that I wish that was my reality here. I know I really do because what you're saying sounds so human.
00:24:26
Speaker
Like i yeah it's kind it's kind of jarring. I don't know if that's some kind of cultural difference in the U S to the UK right now, but like truly it just feels like from my experience where I, where I am right now, it's really hard to have conversations where there's a disagreement or a different view and morality and, or Anything, anything big, even like religion, shoes, you know, ah just most shoes are not that big, but, but like any, any topic I feel like has become so divisive in the culture I live in.
Love, Acceptance, and Relationship Management
00:25:02
Speaker
And, um,
00:25:04
Speaker
Something I wanted to bring up here is I think, at least from what I see, is the attacking and the judging doesn't always happen verbally.
00:25:16
Speaker
um i think the attacking can happen like. I think of social media. Like I see a lot of stitched videos of people with different opinions of something and they'll show the clip of someone, you know, who might be like a woman on a homestead, like holding a kid, making butter.
00:25:34
Speaker
And they'll be like, this is a trad wife and she's disempowered, you know? And, and, and truly like, it's really interesting. It's like the attacking, the judging is happening behind the keyboards of life lately.
00:25:45
Speaker
Um, yeah. Which weirdly is like worse. I know. Yeah, I do agree it's worse. But they are still... like let they Let's take the Ballerina Farm example, which I know that's what you're talking about, even though i feel like she has the most iconic life. I don't know why anyone's trying to tear her down. I'm like, girl is living. and But those people...
00:26:07
Speaker
In a way, in a way, they are attacking her from a place of love. Like they want her to have the freedom that they think she doesn't have.
00:26:20
Speaker
Like they think she's like, trapped on her acres of land with her beautiful children. yes And they they like don't get there because again, it's not what they want.
00:26:32
Speaker
They don't see that as freedom, right? They see her as being trapped there. They think they're doing her a favor by being like, wake up, babe. You can come and have a depressing corporate job and live in a square box apartment in this horrible, disgusting city like me.
00:26:50
Speaker
You know? they they They also love her. Yeah. Okay. except way I hear what you're saying. I think Amy, what you're, what you're saying is we see things as we are, and not as they are.
00:27:03
Speaker
That's what you're saying. so like, if I come in and all I know is, is women who I've met, who I feel have been disadvantaged by a system that keeps them as mothers, that keeps them at home, then all I have to view the situation with, or that person with is like,
00:27:23
Speaker
how could you stay or like or if you could stay let me help you get out because you might not be able to get out on your own so that it's so interesting because to me i think i think sometimes that that is that is where love becomes morphed and um misshapen because it's no longer it's no longer love when you're trying to change somebody. budd
00:27:56
Speaker
um the The difference there, I do think, is, like, if it were a situation of someone who was being, like, harmed in the home, it's very different. um And that's, like, yeah, that's a whole different thing that we don't even need to get into right now. But but I hear you're saying, Amy, like, totally, we see things as we are, not as they are. um Yeah. And I think things, you're right, can begin with love.
00:28:17
Speaker
But then when you can't decipher when to stop or like when to know that they are not going to budge or they are not going to change is when you lose your capacity for that love and it becomes yeah judgmental or you feel attacked in return too yeah yeah yeah and when you're when you're actually doing someone harm by your committal to change their opinion or change their life like if you're actually harming them then that's that can't be that can't be loving it's so true and then it's interesting too because like then it kind of awakens the question like again it goes to the act of listening you were talking about so are we
00:29:10
Speaker
ah Are we imposing our love on people to change them? Or are we using our love to actively listen to them, to try and love them as they are in the now?
00:29:22
Speaker
even though we might not agree with it. Like, i I just wonder how radically different things could be, like, if we did give people the space to say why they feel the way they feel and also to be okay with if people don't know why they feel the way they feel and that's just what they're doing.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. im I want to dive into the self-differentiation model because I think that's, I didn't, I had never heard of that. I had no concept of that, but I think it's really helpful to, as context for anyone that also hasn't heard of it while we like have these discussions.
00:30:05
Speaker
um So yeah, the self differentiation model refers to a framework that explains how individuals maintain their sense of self while managing relationships and external influences.
00:30:18
Speaker
um So it's the ability to balance two key forces, emotional independence, so maintaining a strong sense of self without being overly reactive to others' emotions or opinions, and also emotional connection, so staying engaged and connected with others while still thinking and acting independently, which is really key. So a well-differentiated person can navigate relationships without losing their identity or becoming overly dependent on others approval.
00:30:53
Speaker
um And that comes, that makes a lot of sense when you put it into family systems theory. um so I already said, highly differentiated individuals can manage their emotions and make decisions based off of their own values and maintain relationships without being controlled by anxiety and external pressures.
00:31:13
Speaker
but poorly differentiated individuals are more emotionally reactive, struggle to separate their own feelings from others, and may seek approval or validation excessively.
00:31:24
Speaker
um So I can already tell you straight off the bat that I'm a poorly differentiated individual. oh That's just who I am. um but like I 100% definitely needs to know that I'm making other people happy like other people agree with me and my presence I really struggle to disagree with someone um especially like in a place of work um or where I like feel like there isn't a fair balance, like where me and the other person like don't have equal power within the relationship. um So I guess everything I say from this book will be coming at it from that being my viewpoint, I guess as well, is an interesting thing to think about. But yeah, you also think you're poorly differentiated, Janessa?
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah, I do. Unfortunately, I i felt like I can feel the like kind of the brighter side of it where I am more regulated in understanding my own emotions, my own triggers about the situation versus the reality of what's really happening.
00:32:36
Speaker
um I'm becoming more aware of that. But in practice, I still fall to a very emotional state of being when something triggers me or there's something I don't agree with. So I, this is definitely something like I am working on. And one thing I wanted to say too, so like my, my therapist is amazing.
00:32:57
Speaker
ah I love her so much. So anyway, shout out to Megan. Sorry. She doesn't listen to this, but shout her out. um But she has been helping me to understand something that reminds me of kind of moving and transitioning into like this more self differentiated state of being is,
00:33:14
Speaker
She said, you know, notice when you are running a script in your life, meaning like start to look at life almost from like a scientist's point of view. So like right now, Amy and I are are recording on GarageBand and we're talking to each other about this book.
00:33:32
Speaker
But if I come to this and I had a horrible morning, then I might be inserting a script of of things that are not actually happening.
Shame, Change, and Apologies
00:33:42
Speaker
So an example would be like, okay, if that were the the case, then maybe I came here.
00:33:49
Speaker
I rushed to get my coffee. I'm exhausted. I'm tired. and And Amy and I are talking, but now I feel like, oh my gosh, like my my point's not making sense. And like, Maybe Amy is thinking like I'm falling and I'm not holding up my part of the podcast. Like, so you see how quick the script can run though. But like, but that's what we do in our lives.
00:34:09
Speaker
And that's not the reality. The reality is that, you know, I did have two hours that great. But the reality is that we're here talking about this book. So, so anything other than that, that we bring is still a part of us, but we have to recognize that it's not the reality. What you think and what you feel isn't always actually what,
00:34:29
Speaker
is outwardly happening yeah i mean for me i feel like rarely what i think and feel is rarely what's actually happening um yeah it's always always worse in my head right oh yeah many many many people listening will relate to that he definitely yeah i'm great at making catastrophes of nothing in my brain like literally nothing and my husband will be like what are you talking about i'm like didn't you see the the way the lady said hello but it wasn't nice and it was just like hello and he's like what so yeah i make up things all the time in my brain um i really liked that she says that um
00:35:14
Speaker
there's room for both basically. And it doesn't have to be one or the other. And she says this in terms of someone's values and beliefs. And she compared this to her friends who are vegan or vegetarian and knowing that the work that they're doing in the way they see this is extraordinarily valuable and extraordinarily valid, but she still would like to eat meat. That's her choice.
00:35:39
Speaker
Um, I really enjoy this because I think this is a really small example of like a very big issue in our world where, yeah, that I think it is beautiful that there's vegetarians out there too and vegans. But and And I think I saw the podcast, i was like, I'm going more vegetarian. And I did for a bit. And then I ate some meat.
00:36:02
Speaker
So I'm um back at it. And, um, yeah, I just had to own that. Back at it. Big same. Yeah. And, but there's, there's room for both. Like you can, you can also like, you don't have to like, you don't have to just sign your life away to one way of being. That's not, um, that's not healthy. There's always room for growth.
00:36:24
Speaker
Um, Yeah, so I liked that example. And Amy, what did you think about the shaming? I kind of struggled with what she said um about, like, shaming.
00:36:37
Speaker
It's not her belief or value or way, but it certainly is a way of some. um How did you interpret that? I struggled with that. it No, it is. okay so is...
00:36:51
Speaker
shaming is Kind of sometimes, maybe, one of the only ways to get people... Okay, where where my head goes when it comes to shaming is, like, getting someone to stop smoking.
00:37:07
Speaker
Like, stop smoking cigarettes, which is, like... awful for them and i there is no doubt in my mind that convincing someone to stop smoking cigarettes is the right thing to do and like you are doing them a service if you are trying to do that for them and basically i think shaming is a really powerful way of getting someone to stop smoking um You know, like coming when they come back from having a cigarette, you're you smell disgusting. Or like, I hate that you snore. Or I hate that you snore all night because you're smoking. Or like, you know, your skin looks disgusting. you know You need to stop smoking. i You know? um yeah
00:37:48
Speaker
i think it's one of the only ways to get someone to stop smoking. um So yeah I think shame is a really powerful tool. Mm-hmm. I guess it depends, right? It really depends on what you're trying to convince someone of. like Because on the flip side it's like if someone...
00:38:09
Speaker
has a gay child and they don't believe with someone being gay, they will shame that gay person um for who they are. And that's obviously awful because there's no there's no need for someone to stop being gay. Like there's no need to shame someone for being gay.
00:38:28
Speaker
um But then I'm like, maybe that's just my belief. And some maybe someone would say the same about smoking. Maybe someone would say you shouldn't you shouldn't try and shame someone out of smoking because it's their right to smoke. So, again, I've just put my own bias on that.
00:38:43
Speaker
um Yeah. I don't know. What did you what did you struggle with about the shaming? Oh, my gosh. OK, I love the way you broke it down. first of all, before I tell you about what I thought, one thing came to mind in the UK. Did you guys have like like don't do these drug commercials yeah not drugs drugs were never ah I mean in my lifetime drugs like were never advertised but we did have stop smoking adverts like okay like we kids you know like kids oh go on oh I'm sorry no no no tell me what they were like I'm so curious no we had like like kids dying from their parents secondhand smoke
00:39:21
Speaker
on this type being like this is why you shouldn't smoke yeah so like that was we yeah just with the smoking but um i know drugs were much more a thing in america weren't they on the oh yeah i mean you just you freaking advertise everything in america so yeah but i'm not surprised they advertise not doing drugs as well Yes. So there is a commercial I got to send you after a recording because it's this girl and she's sitting on a couch and she's like, it's like documentary style. And this came out when I was in middle school. this is like early mid 2000s, I should say.
00:39:57
Speaker
Um, and it was just horrific. She's like, tell me why your sister can't answer our questions. She's like, cause she got high and it pans out. And on another couch, there's a deflated woman, like literally deflated, but completely deflated. And she can only move her face a little. And she's like, hi and like, then it said, don't do drugs.
00:40:20
Speaker
And that was, like, so fucking whack. That was the wackest shit I've ever seen, like, still to this day. Yeah. um Like, what the actual fuck was that?
00:40:31
Speaker
So, yeah, I will send you it. It was really weird, but it was a way of shaming to make kids think of, like, not smoking pot. Yeah. yeah I'm sure it worked for some, but for me, I was just like, damn, weed deflate you?
00:40:48
Speaker
there's also hilarious that they were like adverts about not getting high and now like you can like buy cannabis and now they're like house like come get high in the space of like 20 years advertising like get high now it inflates you yes yes ah So, yeah, that's kind of what I think of shame. But then to take it back to what I felt of it initially is like initially I felt this knee jerk to the word shame. And I was like, I would never. yeah like I'm not OK with shaming. And then I think about it. I really, really deeply think about it.
00:41:22
Speaker
And I was like, ooh. I have shamed actually like quite a lot in my life and even recently where I haven't understood some political views and I've been like, I don't know how you could believe that.
00:41:34
Speaker
Even me saying that, that is literally shaming another human being. And I was like, wow, shame is a part of me, even though I keep thinking I'd never do that. And then I then i look at it and I'm like, I haven't done that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a, it's an, unintentional result of it can be an unintentional result of disagreeing with someone like it doesn't mean you weren't you weren't intending to make them feel shamed when you disagreed with them but that's it can happen is that something and do you think like okay if we know at the end that we were shaming like it started with love it kind of disintegrated into this situation
00:42:20
Speaker
Like, ah are we supposed to apologize to them? Like, what do you think about that? Like, I yeah and don't know I feel about it. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, if there's if they are a person that you love and value in your life, like not if you started arguing with someone in the queue at like the supermarket, like you don't have to go and apologize to them. But yeah, if it's if it's someone in your life, then yeah, because...
00:42:50
Speaker
apologizing won't won't just like maybe potentially set them free from their shame that they felt but it's gonna set you free as well from the shame you feel in making them feel ashamed yeah yeah no it's really i think he very ah very apologizing is actually a very freeing experience on all accounts whenever you do it about And that speaks to the very last part of this chapter too, Amy, when she says when we fight against another person's belief, trying to eliminate these behaviors or minimize them in the world to create a world where these actions don't exist, we wind up perpetuating the very thing we claim we want to end or minimize in the world.
00:43:40
Speaker
Man, ah and that is just such a... It's too real. Like that kind of hurts because I'm like, damn, there's been times where I've been so convicted and what I feel around like for me, politics are just really strong in the
Political Extremes and Group Cohesion
00:43:55
Speaker
US right now. So that's kind of what I'm grasping at. But yeah I have been so convicted by politics to the point where um I in the past, past Janessa, not easy to admit, have told like literally family members who voted for a different party than me that like that party is racist. That party is wrong.
00:44:14
Speaker
that party supports, you know, the 1%. And it's funny because in return, i didn't want to listen to their argument, but their arguments were almost the exact same.
00:44:24
Speaker
Like, that party is extreme. That party is only about themselves. That party is inflating issues that aren't, you know, applicable to the majority of U.S. citizens. And it's really interesting because it's like any extreme we take on something,
00:44:42
Speaker
and especially when we partake in extremes together, we almost become one in the same. It's just like, I just can't see it Yeah. And you're always forgetting in that situation, you're always forgetting that they can only come at it from their own experience. And this is something you always need to keep at the front of your mind your own lack of experience like you need to humble yourself all the time with your lack of experience because you know nothing like anyone in the world knows nothing about the scale of the world about the scale of what hangs over humanity like all of us
00:45:29
Speaker
only get 80 years here of our own influences, like most likely, unless you are a truly exceptional person, like you're only gonna be really influenced by like 100 people max in that whole time.
00:45:44
Speaker
i'm more than likely they're gonna be very similar to you. Like we know nothing. um And it's really easy for us to be so confident in our convictions when we always have no idea what we're talking about that's what i'm trying remember all the time is just i never have any idea what i'm talking about
00:46:07
Speaker
And I keep getting embarrassed by that. But I keep still trying to I i still I still keep trying to chat like I know shit du when I don't know anything. and that's what I'm always trying to remember. No, you're not alone. It's actually the most like humble, like thought, I think, because truly like like you said, no, but there is no manual to life.
00:46:27
Speaker
Like we have for me, like with where I'm at spiritually, I have a book that helps me decipher right now and choose what is applicable to me in the way I want to live. But that is not what's right for everyone.
00:46:41
Speaker
And it's not what I would expect of everyone. So there's literally is no and it's also not a manual. So there's just no manual to this lifetime in which you're so right. Like. what I think is right and true could be so wrong and, and so different to somebody from their experiences. So man, it just is a, that is just so humbling. Like, it's like that saying, like in someone's story, I am the villain, you know, like, isn't that crazy? Cause part me is like, there's no way I could ever be the villain in someone's story. And it's like, no girl, I'm sure you are. yeah Like you just don't know. Like, yeah, I love that. I love that you're bringing, that's such like, um,
00:47:20
Speaker
Oh, how do I say that's such mindfulness that you're thinking that Amy. That's so good. yeah Oh, beautiful. Well, I think we. hammered out chapter four pretty well with you all and um yeah yeah i think we can move along to the next yeah we damn time has really flown it time yeah i just did i was like okay chapter five do not demand or expect that others think feel and act like you whenever i demand or expect that others should think feel and act like i do i find myself thinking things like
00:47:55
Speaker
I would never have done it like that. What is she doing? I've done that for a hundred years and I would never have done it the way she did. That is not a good way to do that. Has she been trained? was so funny.
00:48:09
Speaker
um How do we allow ourselves to have our way of doing things and not think, feel, demand or expect that others are going to do it our way? We're as unique as anything has been.
00:48:23
Speaker
Look at your little finger and your little fingerprint. That's unique to you. With all the billions of us there are, each fingerprint is unique. And that's also how many unique ways we have of doing what we do.
00:48:38
Speaker
When I believe any other person in the universe is going to do something the way I do it, the pain is on me, the misery is on me, the suffering is on me.
00:48:50
Speaker
The suffering I have as a result of demanding, expecting, wanting or even shoulding that they should do it my way. They should have considered me. They should follow my lead is the source of my hell my suffering my misery my tension my stress It's the source of the anxiety I'm experiencing Here's the good news if I want less stress less anxiety less tension I can drop expecting Demanding or believing that any other person is going to do something the way I do it or the way I think it ought to be done
00:49:27
Speaker
This is how we take back the power we have. When we demand, expect and displace power onto somebody else, we give away all our power in the situation.
00:49:38
Speaker
We take back that power when we say, I do it the way I do it, that makes sense to me. They do it the way they do it, because that makes sense to them. It reflects the consciousness that they're in.
00:49:50
Speaker
It reflects the belief and the thought they're having at the time. This isn't mysterious. Just like you and me, each person has his or her way of doing things. When we dismantle the right and wrong frame and the good and bad frame, we have less emotional reactivity to whatever others do and even how they do it.
00:50:12
Speaker
Taking back your power leaves you more responsive and less reactive. It gives you more thoughtful, It leaves you more thoughtful and puts you in the mindset of being a student.
00:50:24
Speaker
You begin to ask yourself, can I learn from them as well? It requires an open mind to be willing to learn anything, a willingness to accept differences between people.
00:50:37
Speaker
as we'll see in the next chapter, but except the listeners won't see in the next chapter because we're not gonna read them the next chapter. And that it's hard because then there comes a part of responsibility.
00:50:49
Speaker
Like, oh man, I am responsible for this amount of suffering or this amount of you know discomfort I put myself in willingly, even if I'm not fully you aware.
00:51:02
Speaker
um So yeah, I just, I think that's so profound to me. It's just like, wow, i I'm extraordinary at at creating that space. So I'm working on ah not being so good at it.
00:51:14
Speaker
Yeah, and this really piqued my interest actually. Like I think her language was so strong there. that I was like, why are we so like emotionally driven to have people agree with us? And like, why does it put our backs up so much when people don't agree with us?
00:51:34
Speaker
um And it turns out it's from like basically evolution. So we have a survival mechanism because when humans were evolving,
00:51:46
Speaker
we really relied on group cohesion for our literal survival. So in early human history, being accepted by the group meant access to food, protection, and all the resources, and disagreement or rejection could lead to social isolation, which is obviously dangerous because you couldn't be one human on your own in like the African plains.
00:52:12
Speaker
and Yeah, so that's why we have such a strong drive for people to believe, agree with us, sorry, or believe as we believe as it comes from our like historic roots.
00:52:25
Speaker
Isn't that interesting? Yeah, oh my gosh. That is so, yeah because I can't imagine like, I'm picturing cavemen. Yeah, exactly.
00:52:36
Speaker
And I'm picturing like, like me just like, ugo shaka uguakka like trying to join a caveman group. And they're just like, hu and like, and then they just like send me off. And like, on my way out, there's a bear. And I'm just like, no one's about to help me against this bear.
00:52:50
Speaker
That's horrifying. So, you know, I wonder too, maybe that's why it's so hard to have these conversations because it's like deeply ingrained in us that fight or flight experience of like,
00:53:03
Speaker
Even though this person's not a bear or a tiger, i feel i must fight. I must fend. I must run from this or I must freeze in this situation. Like that is such a such strong emotions to elicit at any time. And it it makes sense with what you just said to how our brain just doesn't know the difference, you know.
Final Thoughts and Book Recommendation
00:53:24
Speaker
ah just It's still thinking and group mentality. And it also um ah validates our belief and our own identity, obviously. So it reinforces our self-worth and we all need that self-worth. Like someone agreeing with you can feel like their approval of you, which obviously boosts your self-esteem.
00:53:49
Speaker
and we're all chasing that, right? We're all chasing that kind of validation.
00:53:56
Speaker
Even if it's nothing to do with you. just came up with the...
00:54:01
Speaker
Oh, totally. I just came up with the craziest mental image of of two caveman tribes. And like one has like, they both have the same things back at their camps. Like they both have like water, access to water, access to foliage and fire.
00:54:18
Speaker
And they're both meeting, but there's no common language. They don't fully understand each other. So one group is like, I'm trying to save you. Come with us. We have what you need. And the other group's like, nah, no.
00:54:29
Speaker
I'm trying to save you. Come with us. We have what you need. And it just ends in this total disagreement with and disgruntlement, which both sides go back to where they came from. They never fully understood that both sides have the same thing to offer.
00:54:43
Speaker
I think that's just such a little metaphor for a lot of our things and obviously does like in does. If you even look at like all the political division that is happening in your country right now, those people on both sides, like all they want is security for their family.
00:55:02
Speaker
That's literally all anyone wants, like security for themselves and their family. and the two parties are promising to deliver that ah at the end of the day. but Like, the practices are different.
00:55:15
Speaker
But at the end of the day, that's all the parties want either. um Yeah, you're all, like, literally arguing over the same end goal.
00:55:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's so true. We're arguing on the of how what journey to take, what roads to take to get there. Just very interesting. ah Well, i Yeah, I think I was going to add this in. Let me just see there's, if it's even applicable. Um, this is my real estate textbook, by the way. I'm in real estate school, you guys.
00:55:48
Speaker
And, and they said something the other day that I was like, how is this textbook giving me something I've been needing? Um, Let's see. Okay, let me see if it is.
00:56:00
Speaker
Okay, i so they're talking about ah in this textbook showing respect um so that we don't offend any clients and that we understand that we don't know a client's background. So you can't, it's not okay. It's not just to make any judgments about what they can and cannot.
00:56:15
Speaker
afford or buy-in um So listen to this, you guys. This is totally on par with what we're talking about. It says we can always do better. We need to challenge our preconceived notions, our opinions in order to grow.
00:56:27
Speaker
If we're not careful, we project our ways of thinking onto others. We expect them to see a situation the same way we do. to draw the same conclusions that we do and behave in all sorts of circumstances as we do.
00:56:39
Speaker
When we treat others with respect, we stop assuming that others share our beliefs and perspectives and values and motivations. In other words, we stop ah using self-centric thinking.
00:56:52
Speaker
Mm-hmm. damn real estate yeah yeah but I mean much of yeah I know you're kind of joking like like how is this relevant but half of real estate is understanding other people and getting them to do what you want for the price you want right like yeah no totally it's it's such a people um You have to be good people to go into residential real estate for sure. um Or you need to be open at least to understanding people because that's, yeah, that's just a small microcosm of what we're talking about is, you know, when someone shows up to buy home, you don't know what they've been through. It could be that they just got through a terrible divorce and lost everything. Yeah.
00:57:33
Speaker
you're kind of the first lifeline they're seeing to a new hope, a new future. Or could be someone who just is buying a bungalow and they don't really give a shit about it. So it's like, you really don't know what people are bringing to the table. Like look at Justin Bieber, like look at what he wears now. You'd never know. He was like a multimillionaire. He literally looks like, we shouldn't joke about drugs because i feel like he might be on drugs. but you know what mean? Like he looks a mess. Like if he turned up somewhere, you'd be like, please leave.
00:57:59
Speaker
But yeah, he's got, he's got it all. Wow. Well, you guys, I think we did ah pretty good in breaking it down. And there's so much more to this book. So I just encourage you all, like, again, her name is Martha Creek. Again, the name is Presence and Potential. We'll put that in the show notes.
00:58:19
Speaker
um Small author, writes from the heart, has really beautiful ways of seeing things. And um this material is, it's not easy. It's not meant to be easy to grasp. She even says, like, it It's almost impossible to do what she's writing about. So it takes genuine effort.
00:58:37
Speaker
um But it starts with small actions like Amy saying, you know, i I don't know it. I'm not sure. I don't have the answers to this. um It starts with those little actions. That's all it is. That's all self-awareness is. And you don't have to beat yourself up.
00:58:52
Speaker
If you still are feeling triggered, you just have to come back down to yourself and remember, you know, who you are how you feel um is valid. And just a reminder that what they are and what they feel is valid. And I want to like, as just as my final thought to leave it on, I want to like just talk about how powerful different perspectives actually are.
00:59:14
Speaker
and you like you need to engage with different viewpoints really intentionally. like When you're talking to someone that has a different viewpoint, then you take it as an opportunity to learn and find value in disagreement.
00:59:34
Speaker
like Some of the greatest ideas come from people having open discussions and disagreeing and finding a solution. um and just always ask yourself if you're wrong because builds humility one of in my opinion like one of the best traits a person can have is humility and you always have the potential to be wrong and there's lots of people with lots of beautiful viewpoints that are valuable and all of our hearts can be softened from understanding that point of view that's my final thought
01:00:12
Speaker
that's beautiful wow ah okay well you guys I'm excited to see you back here in two weeks and say yeah until then remember to let the light in oh my god what is wrong with my voice oh my god I've ruin it ruined I've ruined the remember to let the light in no no you no I got you I'll do it again was cracking they let they let's no let's just that's usually my role Amy no let's just leave it it's funny it'll be a funny ending
01:00:43
Speaker
Okay. Sounds good. Bye.
01:00:46
Speaker
Bye.