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Thunderbolts*
31 Plays8 months ago
Daryl & Nick talk about the latest Marvel movie, Thunderbolts*. What's that asterisk mean? Who are these characters, anyway? And who would have expected an emotional exploration of mental health out of an MCU action movie?
- 00:00 Non-spoiler discussion
- 41:11 Spoiler discussion
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Transcript
Introduction to Casual Nerdity
00:00:10
Speaker
Casual Nerdity is a podcast celebrating and discussing pop culture that we love. Movies, TVs, comics, books, games, you name it. Ari missed to talk about the good, what worked, and yeah, sometimes what didn't.
00:00:21
Speaker
All with an eye towards building up, not tearing down. Thanks for joining us.
Thunderbolts Review: Non-Spoiler & Spoiler
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome back to Casual Nerdity. We're taking a quick break from our current Clone Wars, or excuse me, Clone Watch series to take a look at the latest Marvel movie that just opened this past weekend as we recorded this, Thunderbolts.
00:00:47
Speaker
And I'm Nick.
Spoilers as Marketing in Marvel
00:00:49
Speaker
I'm Daryl, and we're going to divide our conversation up into non-spoiler and spoiler sections. We'll have a timestamp for the spoiler discussion in the notes, and we'll warn everybody before we go full spoiler.
00:01:05
Speaker
um That said, one thing that was firmly in the spoiler category... Marvel themselves have now turned into part of the movie's marketing campaign as of today, the Monday after release.
00:01:19
Speaker
And that's the meaning of the asterisk. So we're going to get in the spirit of the... Let's keep in the spirit of the marketing, just for those that haven't been maybe paying attention or don't follow the social media.
00:01:33
Speaker
Sure, I was about to say, you do we want to keep that behind the spoiler wall or is it fair game since Marvel's not keeping it a secret anymore? But sounds like we're going to keep it behind the spoiler
Analyzing Thunderbolts Trailer
00:01:44
Speaker
wall.
00:01:44
Speaker
And so before we start, let's take a listen to the first major trailer for the movie.
00:01:54
Speaker
Let's talk facts. The Avengers are not coming.
00:02:00
Speaker
Who will keep the American people safe?
00:02:08
Speaker
There's some big threat out there. And you are going help me stop it. Wait, us? Yeah, you. What, you got someplace to be? and love that guy.
00:02:20
Speaker
So none of us comply? So what, do we all just punch and shoot? I can't think of a worse group of people trying to work together. Stop! Come on, it's me!
00:02:30
Speaker
John, stop! Where were you? Where were you? Everyone here has done bad things. You can't escape the past. Hey, it's like your mind is somewhere else.
00:02:43
Speaker
So you can do something about it now or live with it forever. Oh!
00:02:51
Speaker
could get messy. No shit. You thought you were gonna be some great saviors? You can't even save yourself.
00:03:04
Speaker
We can't do this. No one here is a hero. Lena, when I look at you, I don't see your mistakes. That's why we need each other.
00:03:18
Speaker
Okay, that was really good. We are the Thunderbolts! Can't call ourselves that. God, thank you. has makings of team that can reigns to glory.
00:03:38
Speaker
Bring light from the darkness.
00:03:47
Speaker
This team can be the heroes on the weighties box.
00:03:54
Speaker
With a little gave the giddy boy.
00:04:05
Speaker
Alexei, have you slept? I'll sleep when I'm dead. I'd like not to die today, so maybe somebody else should be driving.
00:04:14
Speaker
so Great trailer. great Great trailer.
MCU Evolution Post-Endgame
00:04:18
Speaker
So let's talk some Thunderbolts. Mm-hmm. Again, now we're doing spoilers. We're non-spoiler first.
00:04:28
Speaker
Yep, non-spoiler first. um First of all, just a small aside... Between this trailer and the song is used in the movie and Daredevil Born Again, did Marvel get some major discount on licensing that Starship album?
00:04:47
Speaker
Possibly. Because we have, nothing's going to stop us now, and we built this city in Daredevil. Honestly, feel that their use of nothing's going to stop us was probably, maybe that's controversial, but I like the way they use it in this.
00:05:06
Speaker
in the total Oh, absolutely. I'm not saying otherwise. and would what we to do Especially when you consider that that entire album is largely considered to be not great.
00:05:22
Speaker
Those are the other standouts. but Well, I mean... We Built This City is considered the worst rock song ever recorded, but I i can't help it.
00:05:33
Speaker
you know We're not going to be discussing Daredevil at length, but I can see it as you know something that Kingpin used as his campaign song.
00:05:44
Speaker
ah that Fitting, fitting, very fitting. ah which Which is why I think it was used to such great effect in that one episode, where yeah you the kid's choir sings it, and then he goes to another function, and a choir there sings it, and he has this look like, what have I done?
00:06:03
Speaker
that This is I am in hell. but yeah ah But that's Daredevil. We're here to talk about Thunderbolts. and get ah get get Get used to that sound effect, everyone. and I mean, there's an asterisk.
00:06:17
Speaker
And in all of the marketing, that's what they used when the asterisk pops up. yeah If anyone asks what an asterisk means anymore, Marvel owns that basically right now.
00:06:28
Speaker
I mean, they turned it into the entire marketing campaign. Yeah. Which, you know, kudos to them. that That worked very well for them.
00:06:39
Speaker
um your Your first overall thoughts of the movie, Nick? I'll give my disclaimer of like, There's been a lot of whole lot of like how Marvel hasn't been like performing properly, or it's been a little bit down.
00:06:54
Speaker
I've always been a bit of more Marvel hopeful. So you're you're saying that there's been a lot of MCU is dead discourse? Yes. and Some of it I can agree with. There's been lows.
00:07:08
Speaker
But not as low as people have been talking about. But there has a bit also not have been as huge highs as there were since the previous three three phases.
00:07:21
Speaker
if If I may, i think part of that is because there there was pretty much through the first three phases, there was, for want of a better term, continuous rise.
00:07:35
Speaker
In tension and stakes and everything leading up to Endgame. And and i think it was new. There's no denying the fact that the MCU is a unique phase of not just comic book films, but film as a whole.
00:07:55
Speaker
Right. that no one has There have been shared universes before. let' Let's be honest. That's nothing new. There have been shared universes in TV and movies before.
00:08:06
Speaker
But Marvel hit upon a formula that worked very well because they took what works for the comics and successfully retranslated it and adapted it into the media of movies and TV.
00:08:28
Speaker
Something that hadn't been done before. I mean, for how many decades did we hear people saying, oh man, I want to see Superman and Batman team up in a movie.
00:08:40
Speaker
And studios were, were of the impression that that works in comics, but there's no way to make it work in movies or tv yeah it just won't work gu and but it's like they took a gamble and it worked with solid plotting solid characters like you could you could spend an entire like like there's probably a video as essay out there that explains it better oh i'm sure that there is and but the main factor is that there are people that are like
00:09:19
Speaker
post-Endgame have felt that there's a decline. There's a lot to explain about that as well. And that that's the point that I was starting to get to with my interjection there, in that after that almost continuous rise to Endgame,
00:09:37
Speaker
there's a not insignificant portion of the audience out there that expected everything to continue to rise after Endgame.
00:09:48
Speaker
They either can't or won't accept that there needs to be falling action so that you can then build again.
Phase Four: A New Beginning
00:10:01
Speaker
Plus... it is um It's kind of the fault of the fact that but that's how we expect, like, we check Marvel Chains, the story structure. It's like, okay, everything is a rising action.
00:10:13
Speaker
We didn't get a falling action. Well, we did. We got falling action because No Way Home was kind of an epilogue to those first three phases. They weren't ready for that.
00:10:24
Speaker
They weren't, they were expecting. Yeah. You're, you're, you're breaking up, Nick. Yeah. that was the ah The general audience wasn't ready for a falling action. No, they and it's kind of the same thing going off on another little small tangent.
00:10:40
Speaker
It's kind of the same effect that the last part of the last couple of seasons of Game of Thrones faced, in that they refused to accept that for all of the seasons leading up to it, they were telling us exactly who Daenerys was.
00:11:02
Speaker
But we were seeing her story largely separated from the rest, so it was filtered through her point of view where she was the hero of her own story. And once everything, once her story converged with the other storylines when she got to Westeros, the audience either couldn't or wouldn't accept her being portrayed as the conquering invader that we had been told from day one that she was.
00:11:30
Speaker
Or even if you were accepting that, it's like you could see how easy like she could turn into one. Right. Like, like even even some my friends that were like the hard Daenerys core before that final season was like, they're like, she's on that ah turning point. And it's like, they're like, they even called it like, it's when she crosses over into Westeros, that's crossing the Rubicon.
00:11:56
Speaker
Who is he going to be? Yeah. And so, Marvel, was is ah they're also faced with a reality that doesn't exist in the comics, which is...
00:12:10
Speaker
You're dealing with flesh and blood actors. You're dealing with flesh and blood actors who may want to move on to other projects or who simply age out of being able to play a superhero effectively.
00:12:24
Speaker
And so you do have to do what they started to do in phases four and five, which is put new pieces on the board. The way I have described it is phase four was less ah phase four than it was a new phase one.
00:12:43
Speaker
I sort of called it phase epilogue. It's an epilogue too. And again, it's dealing with a lot of the like the the effects of the blip, the new status quo, and building... and it's sort of a I'd also say that you're right in calling it a new phase one.
00:13:02
Speaker
Building new heroes. Yeah, and new status quo is a phrase that I have used when I've had this discussion many times.
Yelena's Central Role in Thunderbolts
00:13:10
Speaker
So they established a new status quo.
00:13:12
Speaker
And so the there has been, has everything been banger since Endgame? No. Newsflash, before Endgame, not everything was a banger.
00:13:26
Speaker
grew up, was part that sort of like, i grew up i was part of that sort of like Early, I may not have grown up with it, but I was in that comic book phase and helped my friends who weren't comic book fans get into the Marvel stuff.
00:13:42
Speaker
So that's, they consider, they look back at with like rosy eyed glasses, but I had to tell them all the comic book lore to make it all make sense. Yeah, and there's there's a lot of 2020 hindsight looking at the ones that weren't bangers in phases one, two, and three.
00:14:04
Speaker
Thor 2. Thor 2. And I think that once we get through Doomsday and Secret Wars, that similar will be done on phases 4, 5, and 6. But I will feel that there is a there's a somewhat reasonable, especially in like the film community, being like,
00:14:28
Speaker
Well, Marvel has to continue creating bangers to create to perpetuate the franchise. And there's there's another aspect of this, too, that I read recently that even Kevin Feige has said that ah he's aware of the fact that there's There's a sense that each new Marvel movie, it starts to seem like going back to see what you need to see to understand what's going on is too much like homework.
00:15:06
Speaker
And there has been a call for quite some time. Give us some more standalone Marvel movies like you did at the beginning. At the beginning, you didn't rely on everything that came before.
00:15:20
Speaker
You gave us Iron Man. You gave us Thor. You gave us Hulk. You gave us Captain America. But there's also the ironic fact that like that built, too, one of the most impressive pieces of storytelling in cinema. Right. andma Well, and what I'm thinking is that's exactly what they've been doing.
00:15:39
Speaker
They've been giving us, in addition to the next chapters of the characters we know, they've been giving us standalones with new characters, both on TV and on the big screen.
00:15:51
Speaker
Now, is that a bit too much for the general audience? That's a whole different question. But I think everything, getting back to what we're here to talk about, a lot of that world building that they've been doing in phases four and five years yeah is has i started come in it started to come together in Thunderbolts.
00:16:16
Speaker
And again, I feel that that's why that discussion needs to be not only for the greater discussion of Marvel films, but ah specifically this one. Right.
00:16:27
Speaker
Now, let's take a big picture look here. um For starters, for my money, MVP of this movie, Florence Pugh. Oh, and Florence Pugh.
00:16:40
Speaker
She killed it. She every killed he did it She killed it harder. She's Black Widow and she kills everything. you know Yeah, she is. As much as this is an ensemble of the characters, she's A great ensemble.
00:16:57
Speaker
Both Florence as an actor and Yelena as a character are at the center and carry the movie.
John Walker's Character Growth
00:17:08
Speaker
And as ah as someone that's like, if you don't know the comics character of Yelena, she's pretty red bear. Yeah, she's pretty much a cipher. and You know, she's, oh, look, it's it's a black widow that is not Natasha Romanoff.
00:17:24
Speaker
evil Black Widow, a blonde. And so... I called it when I first saw it. was like, and Yelena in the MCU is not that character.
00:17:37
Speaker
She has and every scene that she has been in, in anything. Black Widow, Hawkeye, and now this.
00:17:48
Speaker
Oh, she was one of my favorite parts of Hawkeye. Oh, yeah. I mean, Yelena and Kate Bishop bouncing off of one another. Hilarious. yeah Honestly, that I was already big into the show because I'm one of those few, I'm one of the dozens of Hawkeye fans.
00:18:08
Speaker
And was like, but I was like, no, no, when I saw her and Kate Bishop interact, it's like, no, no, I want this for like two seasons. yeah that's I want this for two seasons and 20 movies.
00:18:21
Speaker
Just inject it directly into my veins. In fact, The way that they interacted and the way that their characters clicked and bonded so well, that's probably my only complaint about this movie, is that with everything that Yelena was going through and her lack of purpose and direction, why where was Kate?
00:18:46
Speaker
She's hanging out with Marvel and they're making making making the Junior Avengers. the The Young Avengers, or as they're probably going to call it, the Champions. the it Everything seems to indicate that they're going to go with that different team name that Marvel owns.
00:19:03
Speaker
um But yeah, I cannot say enough about Florence Pugh. in this movie. um But I have to call it my second and main character, John Walker.
00:19:19
Speaker
What I really liked about Walker in this... Now, again, Wyatt Russell... Amazing actor. Wyatt Russell is his having his salad days, and it is well-deserved.
00:19:35
Speaker
ah Between... between he was in Black Mirror. He's in Monarch... Yeah, and the job that he did in Monarch, where both he and his dad, Kurt, both found a middle ground to come up with a way of being the same character, recognizably the same character in two periods of time, decades apart, both of them brought their A-games to that show. And there's also...
00:20:10
Speaker
I first saw him in Black Mirror where it's just like a one-off, but he just sort of killed it as like a guy that's like running from his past.
00:20:22
Speaker
I really saw that in this movie. One thing that I really liked about Walker's arc in this, and this isn't in this isn't spoiler territory or anything, but the fact that We get a full character arc for him.
00:20:42
Speaker
We get development from point A to point B. Because he's our perspective. Because in in the previous iteration of him, in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, he's cast as side character and antagonist.
00:20:58
Speaker
We don't get to see him personally. its And in this, you know we get that full character arc for him. But at the same time, when the movie ends, he's still the asshole that he is at the beginning.
00:21:16
Speaker
And he is still the, you know, i was the official captain. I, I am the real superhero on this team because I was captain America.
00:21:28
Speaker
Like he grows and he's a better person at the end of the, to a degree, but there's still like truth to the fact that he isn't the guy. He's not the guy, and he needs to come to terms with the fact that he's not the guy, no matter how much but
Thunderbolts Ensemble Cast Dynamics
00:21:46
Speaker
he... But he's closer than he was at the beginning.
00:21:49
Speaker
And speaking of him being the guy, if that pipe dream of a Marvel Cinematic Universe, DC Cinematic Universe, that James Gunn occasionally teases ever comes to pass...
00:22:05
Speaker
I must have a scene between Wyatt Russell's John Walker, US agent and Nathan Fillion's Guy Gardner, Green Lantern, especially with where we can't spoil that, but especially with his new headway.
00:22:22
Speaker
Right. um So great. Another, another beautiful performance, another fantastic performance. um Sebastian Stan, no notes.
00:22:35
Speaker
it it It's Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes. He is... He's gross. He is... And honestly, I... I recently watched Nando v... The Nando Cut, it's his secondary channel, talk about... Yeah, i i I was thinking of that same thing. I watched that earlier today myself.
00:22:56
Speaker
And it's like, kids he's the old timer of the... He's the... is it He's like the Tony Stark in the early... the MCU and Steve in the Steve Rogers Captain America and the later MCU.
00:23:12
Speaker
He's the one that you like. He's like the veteran, the guy that keeps things together. It's like he doesn't really have a whole lot of story going on. There's a little bit of it, but it's mostly the fact that like he says he's the he's like the heart.
00:23:30
Speaker
Right. And then we we get Hannah John Kamen as Ghost, carrying over from Ant-Man and the Wasp.
00:23:41
Speaker
i have I have no problem with her performance. In fact, i really liked it. It's just I wish there was a little bit more story-wise for her. I wish they had given...
00:23:53
Speaker
given her more as a character to do. Her performance was great. And I loved that. And accent-wise, though, amazing.
00:24:04
Speaker
Very much so. Her build, like, yeah I'd say, like, for as much as, like, I would like to know more and care more about the character, they managed to do that classic trick of, like, oh, she's really cool.
00:24:18
Speaker
yeah if that i correct If any character in the movie got short shrift, it was Ghost. But Steve Till had some of the best, some of the coolest parts of the action scenes.
00:24:31
Speaker
And she had some great moments because she was very clearly positioned as the character who was like, oh my god, get me out of here, but oh my god, i can't leave because i'm I'm tied to this group for right now.
00:24:50
Speaker
And again, that kind of fits, especially with her power set, and she wants to ghost, but she can't leave very far, and she needs other people to do other things that she can't do.
00:25:03
Speaker
and Then we get to David Harbour Alexei. The Red Guardian! Guardian. and And he just, half of his performance is yelling, and that's the best part.
00:25:16
Speaker
and he He chewed the scenery and enjoyed every bite. Oh yeah, like like, I was starting to expect the scenery to be made of vibranium, or adamantium, of how much he was just chewing it.
00:25:32
Speaker
But... What was great about not just his performance, but the character is he's very cartoonish through most of it. And at the appropriate moments, the character and performance turn on a dime.
00:25:51
Speaker
And when Yelena needs it the most, he goes from being buffoonish clownish wannabe superhero loving dad.
00:26:07
Speaker
like And again, he can turn it on. And earlier today, I saw a post on social media that compared two scenes from two different Marvel movies.
00:26:19
Speaker
One was Natasha in Infinity War during the Battle of Wakanda. where she confidently says about Wanda, she's not alone.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah. And it was contrasted with Yelena bawling her eyes out saying, I'm so alone, daddy. And again, like that's from that's from one of the trailers.
00:26:46
Speaker
it's like it But also it's like, those characters are, honestly, I still feel like one of the biggest mistakes of the MCU was And I know the benefit of hindsight, especially now, we should have had the Black Widow move before Endgame.
00:27:05
Speaker
we We should have, but if we'd had it when it drops into the timeline, i don't think we would have had Florence Pugh.
00:27:16
Speaker
And again, like again like that's the benefit of hindsight is like, We should have deserved those movies, but I don't know if we would have the actors, actresses, and these effects.
00:27:27
Speaker
But it's like, damn. Well, and the other thing, too, is you have to consider that Black Widow, as it exists, wasn't created in a vacuum.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah. Black Widow, as it exists, was written with that 20-20 hindsight of knowing where Natasha's story leads. Whereas if it had come out after Civil War, where it falls in the timeline, yeah would that same story be what we got?
00:27:57
Speaker
Would those same characters be what we got? Well, I guess that's 2020 multiverse site. Yeah, so somewhere somewhere there is a timeline where the movie happened where it did.
00:28:14
Speaker
where we know Where it falls in the timeline. And you know we could let's get Let's get on
Exploration of Mental Health Themes
00:28:20
Speaker
that. What if season four?
00:28:24
Speaker
What if Black Widow was made where it falls in the MCU timeline? um And then they rounding everything out, we have Julia Louis-Dreyfus as... The funniest woman in comedy.
00:28:38
Speaker
And see, so here's the thing. One of my least favorite TV shows in history is Seinfeld. I know that. I cannot stand that show. And for many, many years. I i personally love it.
00:28:53
Speaker
For many, many years, my reaction to that show affected my ability to enjoy and accept the work of the cast on it.
00:29:05
Speaker
Like even Veep? I have never watched a single moment of Veep. Oh, if if you like her Val, Val is just evil her on Veep, which is not too far from her character on Veep.
00:29:18
Speaker
But in the years since, I've come around on Jason Alexander and I've started to come around on Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I came around on Jason Alexander years ago.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, I say that that your hardest one is going to have to be. Your hardest sell is going to to be Jerry. Jerry. Yeah, i'm I'm never going to be sold on Jerry. I've never liked his stand-up. I never liked the TV show.
00:29:43
Speaker
Nothing. He's the main character, so that's going to be... So yeah, you're never going watch Ivo. Now, my my thing with Val, I loved her performance. I loved watching Val in this movie.
00:29:57
Speaker
I have loved watching her build up to this moment in her previous appearances. But what i what I have a hard time, here's here's comic nerd in me having trouble wrapping my brain around it.
00:30:11
Speaker
That's not what Comics Val is. That's true, but also... Comics Val is not Marvel Amanda Waller. Yeah. And that's very much what MCU Val is.
00:30:22
Speaker
But you know what? I'm fine with it. yeah Again, like great casting. She does it well. I will agree with you. It is very much ah MCU Amanda Waller with with with with the with the the filing tags off.
00:30:41
Speaker
Right. But, you I'm not concerned about that. i'm i'm I'm totally good with it. And there's enough difference. There's enough charm. There's enough her as an actor. Val is much more charming than Amanda Waller is. Waller is much scarier than Val is.
00:31:00
Speaker
She's the wall. She's the wall. and And then that finally brings us to Lewis Pullman as Bob. Bob.
00:31:12
Speaker
Bob. Again, This is my first time seeing him. I'm actually going to watch have it on my list to watch stuff with him. Because apparently he's had some stuff in there. But this is my first time watching him.
00:31:24
Speaker
Mine too. i That I'm aware of anyway. I love the performance. Yes, which we were we were kind of discussing this yesterday at our game session.
00:31:37
Speaker
That on the one hand... I kind of want to see, speaking of alternate movie making timelines, I want to see the timeline where Steven Yeun was able to play this part.
00:31:53
Speaker
But on the other hand... yeah It sounds fascinating, like but it would be, I can only imagine, it'd be like very different from what we got here. It would be very different, and Steven Yeun is a great actor.
00:32:09
Speaker
I don't think it would have worked for the story as well as the performance that we got was honestly i thought about that afterwards because i forgot about the steven noon casting you reminded me of that yesterday it's like now this i prefer this cast this is yeah if this was the story that they were going for the whole time this is the guy Yeah, and and part of that, I think, maybe too, that, like we were just saying, this was our introduction to this actor.
00:32:46
Speaker
We haven't seen him in anything else that we can recall. And And I've heard from other people in my circles that he's done some stuff that's really interesting and good. It's like, okay, I'll check that But it's like this, like in terms of like this role is my first introduction,
00:33:03
Speaker
and and he's great. Well, and and I think what i was where I was going with that is i think that my lack of familiarity with the actor was a benefit I'm saying here, like, i I didn't have anything going into it. It's like, I was like, what's sitting I didn't sit there in the audience. And when Bob walks in, go, hey, it's Glenn.
00:33:34
Speaker
Exactly. It's like, I was like, he came in and and honestly, because I knew the other players in that scene, like, okay, yeah You're contributing a new element your new your new element into this established chemistry. Let's see how you ah you work.
00:33:53
Speaker
Or if we if we want to refer to it hey as a term that at some point we'll be in the relatively new future near future will be joining the MCU, it was an X factor.
00:34:11
Speaker
Yes. But either way, like, I, instantly was like, I like him. I like what he's doing. And then he kept on growing as the movie grew. Like, and he came into the character that, and a character that, again, we're keeping that to the next half.
00:34:32
Speaker
But like one that normally I'm not a huge fan of. a you You are also not a huge fan of. Yeah. Yeah. But he became, like, I really like what he did, what they did with him, and how he portrayed them.
00:34:47
Speaker
And what worked with his performance is, as the movie was going on, you could see and understand why the character, the other characters, particularly Yelena, were...
00:35:04
Speaker
were drawn to him, that why they liked him. you know And it it was a it's a very, very fine line to walk that he did with his performance in giving us a character that as the movie goes along, we like and then we really like this character.
00:35:23
Speaker
i really like this character. Ooh, now I'm scared of this character, but I really, really like him and I hope everything turns out okay. But there is subtlety, like, even of all of them, even with Walker being, like, pseudo-antagonistic, but then pseudo-friendly with him as well.
00:35:43
Speaker
Well, and ah maybe wise for the maybe save this for the spoiler part, but there is a definitive moment where Walker has to decide what he thinks about Bub.
00:36:00
Speaker
Bub. But yeah, like, um, great action set pieces. Amazing set pieces. Like there's some, there's some solid heroics, which I, I know that's weird, but we're in a weird world where it's like, oh yeah, the superheroes are saving people.
00:36:20
Speaker
The superheroes are saving people and, um, they're, they're doing, good things, and they're not dropping people off of skyscrapers. and that there that's it with the super the superheroes are are superheing The superheroes are not actively plotting another superhero's cold-blooded murder through the entire course of the movie.
00:36:44
Speaker
i I'm sorry, did I fire shots? I'm not sure. it If the Snyder Bros could read, they'd be very upset. Yeah, they don't have to read where they can listen to us talking.
00:37:00
Speaker
um but That's very bold of you as soon as they even listen to things. This is true. um But... i I liked the way all of the characters played off of one another.
00:37:12
Speaker
i like and that was really evident in that first action set piece where they all come together. I mean, no we is no putting this not a spoiler because it was in one of one of the trailers for it that they're all brought together by Val not to work together, but each to take out another the group.
00:37:36
Speaker
the group Like, you Yelena is there to take out Ghost, who is there to take out Taskmaster, who is there to take out Walker, who is there to take out Yelena.
00:37:47
Speaker
And honestly, ah it in terms of like, as the fun game of any superhero fandom, that's a pretty salt solid matchup.
00:38:00
Speaker
It was. and you got the see some And you got to see a pretty cool like, I guess like Like, fight scene. It's like... Of, like, and powers power differences and power sets.
00:38:15
Speaker
Now, and this is kind of a subtle thing. I don't know if if this clicked for you or not, Nick. In that scene, when they all come face-to-face and actually take a moment to breathe and interact with one another before trying to kill each other again, Ghost, Yelena, and Taskmaster, who were all in other MCU movies...
00:38:37
Speaker
where there's There's no exposition, no real exposition about who they are. Although, you Walker points out who Yelena is. Oh, Red Room Assassin, da-da-da-da-da. They did that in then in the and the post... in the post ah but We get those spoilers.
00:38:56
Speaker
But what they did do is... and And this is just the nature of multimedia. More people see the movies than watch the TV shows.
00:39:07
Speaker
Walker's the one character making the move from TV to movie. And it's called out the most by the movie characters.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yes. He gets the most... expert Here is who this character is. But he does then turn it back on them, explaining to anyone who... Say if they came from TV shows...
00:39:36
Speaker
To explain the rest of them. Yeah. So beautiful writing. And it was it was exposition, but it was natural exposition that worked for the scene that ah but it all happened in.
00:39:50
Speaker
For both audiences. Like, if you came here for Walker, Walker will explain who these guys are. If you came here for everyone else, they're explaining who Walker is. Yeah.
00:40:01
Speaker
ah just It just, it worked beautifully. It worked beautifully. it it didn't It didn't feel... Because, again, they're all snarky assholes. Yeah. hey Well, and I mean, you know that that's kind of become the MCU brand.
00:40:17
Speaker
Well, especially these characters. They took the snarky asshole beyond like the Stark or... the strains and, and quails like these guys are bad guys and they have no qualms like calling each other out and like just being, ah being happy with each other.
00:40:38
Speaker
Nick, i I think we keep dancing around specific elements that we want to talk about that could verge on spoiler. We've given our top view. We've been talking for like 45 minutes and dancing around these points.
00:40:52
Speaker
So let's go ahead and head into spoiler territory. and We can give people plenty of time to stop if they haven't seen it yet. And what we're going to do is we're going to play the final trailer.
00:41:04
Speaker
And so, After this trailer is done, everyone, spoilers abound. You have been warned. Belenna. Being the hero, there is no higher calling.
00:41:18
Speaker
Your sister understood something about that. I should come back for you.
00:41:25
Speaker
No. That's just a fairy tale.
00:41:33
Speaker
I was in high school when the Avengers came. Kind of strange that it's all over now. No one's coming to save the day. i think we are. We can be the ones that are coming.
00:41:46
Speaker
But you have the wrong people. We have all done bad things. Look, I've been where you are. The past doesn't go away. So you can either live with it forever.
00:42:01
Speaker
Or you can do something about it.
00:42:06
Speaker
I am a void.
00:42:11
Speaker
Look what you unleashed. We can't outrun the emptiness. We can't do this.
00:42:23
Speaker
No one here is a hero. We all have things that we regret. But I have so many. This is...
00:42:35
Speaker
Lena, when I look at you, I don't see your mistakes.
00:42:43
Speaker
That's why we need each other.
00:42:48
Speaker
We can't stop them alone.
00:42:53
Speaker
No one can, but we can find a way. Together.
00:43:00
Speaker
Marvel Studios Thunderbolts. pressure So, spoiler lock is off now. And on 3, we're going to actually... Want to tell what the asterisk is on 3? We can get there.
00:43:18
Speaker
we'll We'll get there when they get there. Okay. We'll get there when they get there. But for starters, and maybe this didn't need to be beside behind the spoiler wall, but I did not walk into this movie expecting...
Family & Trauma in Thunderbolts
00:43:35
Speaker
to be given such a heartfelt examination of mental health and trauma. And again, I'll even say, like personally, i am someone that deals with the present often.
00:43:51
Speaker
I felt seen, understood. And so the way... The the way they portrayed the and how to deal with it and how sometimes it's easy to like push it down and make it metaphorical.
00:44:10
Speaker
Push it down. That's exactly what Yelena tells Bob. that you do with that stuff. You you push it down. ah yeah i was and that's ah and you know that i gonna say like i know that that's from me, but I know there's other people out there that I felt seen for that moment. It's like, yeah. yeah and A lot of people tell you to push down there those dark feelings into like a pit, a void.
00:44:40
Speaker
And what I really appreciated is that both the story and the performances presented all of this in such a layered fashion. Like we mentioned Walker's character arc, but I didn't want to go into the into details like this until we were over the spoiler wall.
00:44:58
Speaker
All of the character arcs are... where It's all of the pression. Walker is putting up this front. hi I am Captain America, even though he's not any anymore.
00:45:13
Speaker
I have this loving wife and son, and I am perfect. I was you know ah an all-star high school and college athlete, and I was a decorated soldier, and i was Captain America.
00:45:28
Speaker
we see him we we see that he is just while he's supposed to be watching his kid is doom scrolling stories about his own failure honestly the thing that hit me is like the minute that that scene ended he is standing at the top of that elevator shaft elevator yeah and he is one one inch one toe over it's like and you and like You don't have to say anything, but like you can interpret that that, but I can interpret it well yeah and and i mean I don't remember if it was Yelena or Ghost who's like, hey, Walker, what you doing in there?
00:46:09
Speaker
stamped them out of it but like he he was And I want to say it was Yelena, which makes so much more sense because... Especially because when we start the movie, C was standing on the second tallest building.
00:46:26
Speaker
And i for for a a moment of lightness, I'm sure you've seen the interviews with Florence Pugh talking about that.
00:46:37
Speaker
and And there's also behind the scenes said where she was like, I want to do this it's amazing. yeah and And she does that. Yeah. And that's just what... Have mentioned that love Florence Pugh? Yeah.
00:46:50
Speaker
have i mentioned that i love florence peugh but yeah Don't worry. yeah don't worry i'm sorry um sir I'm sure Stephanie would would'd give you a hall pass.
00:47:01
Speaker
Unless he gets to her first. No, I would have to share. um but um so but but yeah it cheap Her sequence.
00:47:14
Speaker
the The very opening of the movie is her taking that same kind of jump, but is and almost robotically going through another job for Val.
00:47:31
Speaker
But also somewhat, and again, we're trying to be, not not a deal with, like, stuff. but like It's, she's jumping off with, like,
00:47:43
Speaker
we don't know Z has a parachute. And is even talking about like, how I don't know who I am, what I'm doing. This movie deals with like some heavy topics without saying words.
00:47:56
Speaker
It it' ah you could see does it like masterfully. So you can say that like Z is jumping off and how Walker is looking at this empty elevator staff with one toe over over the edge like, it'd be easy.
00:48:13
Speaker
as i I mean, you if we if we want to try to be light about it and reference another MCU movie, you know yeah yeah have the Hawkeye. Nobody would know.
00:48:23
Speaker
Nobody. but there's a closer loop There's a closer we can get to that. But we it's just all done so well. you know again like it It feels like i like it's a heavy movie, but the characters are light to degree.
00:48:42
Speaker
And... you There were bits of it in both of the trailers that we have played, but the scene, you it's near the climax where Yelena and Alexei are on the street. They've just gotten their asses kicked by Mob.
00:49:01
Speaker
Or, you know, since we're beyond the spoiler wall now, we can say they've just gotten their asses kicked by Sentry. And we have that whole so we have the whole have to have whole like moment about but we will We will in a second.
00:49:14
Speaker
well We will in a second. And you part of what makes this so great and so full circle is her arc in Black Widow was all about how even though that family was fake for a spy mission, she was so young that it was real to her.
00:49:37
Speaker
And when she breaks down in Black Widow... through It still went through the Red Room, and but she was there with Natasha. Well, and what what makes her finally break in Black Widow is when Natasha is like, it wasn't real.
00:49:57
Speaker
And she she breaks down. And Alexei tries to connect with her. in in that. But, you know, we they they kind of get a familial connection, but you get the sense, you they make it clear that she hasn't talked to Alexi in, what, was it a year?
00:50:16
Speaker
ah year. And we get the connection from the fact that and Val took advantage of that, to have her go after the Hawkeye, to try and solidify her, hold on her.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she she flat out told Yelena that Hawkeye was responsible for Natasha's death. Which, if we if we cross Disney franchises and have corporate synergy, what she told her was true from a certain point of view.
00:50:46
Speaker
or view Yes, was like, and then she was like, well, that I don't have... It makes sense to see then this, like, I'm just gonna go pump into work if I can't kill my sister's killer. She's like, I don't have anyone, so I am just...
00:51:05
Speaker
I am what the Red Room made me. I'm work. I'm doing work. like I couldn't avenge my sister because my sister wasn't killed by Hawkeye.
00:51:15
Speaker
And... so we and And that's like tragic. but with that Even she recognizes it. see other says like I'm empty. I'm empty inside. But that moment on the streets of New York where she's like, you know all I am is my failures and the horrible things that I've done.
00:51:34
Speaker
And it was in the first trailer. It's actually in both of them where Alexei says, i look at you and I don't see that. I just see the good.
00:51:46
Speaker
And The second trailer that we listened to also kind of leans into, you know, being a hero is the noblest calling and that's what you're doing. That's what you want to do. That's what you've been trying to do this entire movie.
00:52:00
Speaker
That's what you stood to. You have, you've done all the wrong. Again, like the whole point of like Natasha Black Widow in her whole story arc was like, I have read in my letter. It's like, I'm trying to make up for it.
00:52:17
Speaker
By being a hero. So let's let's go ahead. And I i will not lie. I'm wiking wiping away a tear when Alexei turns around. And actually, even though he's not really her father, he becomes her father.
Yelena's Full Circle Journey
00:52:36
Speaker
He's her father.
00:52:37
Speaker
yeah Again, it's like, in my opinion, is like there's nothing there's no stronger family than found family. There is not. And that that's something that you I know that you and I both, because we our entire group ah has has made comments along those lines that you we we are a family.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yeah. and that there's There's no blood between any of us except you know me and Stephanie and our son. But we are a family. Yeah, thank And we all have each other's backs, no matter what.
00:53:16
Speaker
the And that's a scene. This is that's is part of that scene. And the quote-unquote Thunderbolts, ding, are a family.
00:53:30
Speaker
A family. And before we move on to the other big character here that we haven't talked much about, um The whole team name, too, comes from Yelena.
00:53:46
Speaker
yeahle if If we look at it, Yelena has always kind of been stuck in those three years that they spent on the mission in Ohio when she was a kid. Yeah. and alexi has Alexi has the team photo of her junior soccer team, the Thunderbolts.
00:54:06
Speaker
her junior soccer team the thunderbolt which is where the name that Alexei keeps giving the team in the movie comes from. Because wants, he's wanted a team. He's Avenger.
00:54:21
Speaker
And... Because he wants a purpose. That's his goal. is gone yes, through through most of the movie, Alexei is the comic relief character.
00:54:33
Speaker
But if you take a step back and look at it, he keeps applying this because they mentioned to him that she told the story about the soccer team.
00:54:45
Speaker
And from that point on, he keeps calling the team the Thunderbolts. And it it's if you look if you take a look at it from a higher level,
00:54:58
Speaker
He's doing that for her get her as a proud dad and to get her buy-in to the team to be the hero that he sees her as, but she doesn't see herself as. It's like, I want to be the one that they rely as the goalie. She's the goalie.
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah. And so... There is so much here. yeah i've seen I've seen the comments that this movie may as well have been called Black Widow 2 because that's um of the heavy focus on Yelena.
00:55:40
Speaker
And that's fair like that's fair. That's That's not wrong. it it It's not accurate, but it's not wrong. Yeah. So... but he definitely You have to watch Black Widow to get here.
00:55:56
Speaker
Now... There's the big character that we haven't gone into much detail yet.
Bob's Transformation into Sentry
00:56:01
Speaker
Bob. Bob. Do you want to start with Bob? I'm not sure. that a lot There's a lot to talk about Bob.
00:56:09
Speaker
There's a lot to talk about Bob without even going into the whole convoluted comics history of Bob. But it's like... It's just like... And even with just the movie, there's a...
00:56:25
Speaker
there's there's That's what I'm saying. With just the movie, there's a lot there. Well, I mean... well i mean we're We're already in spoiler territory, and there is some potentially sensitive but material and content that is part of Bob's backstory. Yeah. where Bob is clearly a survival of child abuse.
00:56:57
Speaker
um Both physical from his father and mental from his mother, because we we see flashback. Drug abuse into the future.
00:57:07
Speaker
Yeah, drug abuse. we see But we see a flashback to when he was a kid and his father was... oh one of the best scenes for John Walker when he when he punched him.
00:57:21
Speaker
Yeah, ah but we we see a flashback where Bob, as a kid, is interjecting himself between his father and his mother because his father is about to beat his mother.
00:57:36
Speaker
And it cuts away, and we hear her voice tell him, you just make it worse. Years earlier in the film...
00:57:49
Speaker
where he's sort of not feeling his... at when When they were doing the ah climb up the elevator, he's just like, you're just making things worse? Yeah, you're just making... It's a heartbreaking character.
00:58:05
Speaker
And we we know early on that something's up with him. Simply because, a you know he was contained in some kind of container in Val's death lab.
00:58:20
Speaker
and her her like got her big Her, for lack of better term, shredder room but that became like an incinerator room. And when he makes physical contact with both Yelena and Walker, they both get flashes of...
00:58:39
Speaker
of defining dark moments in their in their lives. We see Yelena as her first Red Room test was assigned to lure one of the other girls from the Red Room out into a forest in the middle of nowhere where the other girl was executed. Yeah, and for Walker, him doom-scrolling...
00:59:06
Speaker
Doomscrolling to the point that he's ignoring his crying child in a playpen next to him. And even angrily dismissing his wife and leaving the room.
00:59:19
Speaker
so i eighty And saying, if you think you can do better, do it. and While still claiming, he's like, got a wife and child at ah kind of wife child home but while still claiming to have this Norman Rockwell life at home.
00:59:35
Speaker
And we we learned that Bob was a test subject in a project that Yelena was conducting to try to come up with a superhero that she could basically control to take the place of the Avengers. perfect superhero.
00:59:54
Speaker
The perfect superhero. I would say, like, I do like the fact that we see, like, the ah sort of, like, yeah group focus, the focus test.
01:00:05
Speaker
Right. Making, like, what's the hairstyle? but The hairstyle, the hair color, the costume. logo, the, like, golden hero of the new age.
01:00:19
Speaker
like and it's it's it's both It's both like so corporate, but also so horrifying. it's like that they They're trying to make that.
01:00:31
Speaker
And it all comes together in the former Avengers Tower, where we discover at long last... the mystery that's been dangling since Spider-Man homecoming as to who bought Avengers tower.
01:00:48
Speaker
And it was Val's company that bought Avengers tower. And it, it was done very strategically and very symbolically.
01:01:00
Speaker
It's meant to be the debut of this golden hero, a controlled hero. it It is very intentionally symbolic on Val's part that this new hero operates out of avenger the former Avengers Tower.
01:01:21
Speaker
This hero is replacing the Avengers. It goes back to the the first trailer. It's like, the Avengers aren't coming. My Avenger...
01:01:33
Speaker
is coming. and But we learn that he's been experimented on but that he may be with all of the trauma and mental health issues and addiction issues that he's had he might not be the best person for this to have succeeded on.
01:01:58
Speaker
Especially, and like, i talked I've heard some people say, well, how could they create this? like don't they just put all the things in the bottle and then they pumped it into someone?
01:02:10
Speaker
It's like and they made a monster. and And there's a little foreshadowing of that. and There is precedent in the MCU because their origin of the Hulk tied into trying to recreate the super soldier serum from Captain America.
01:02:29
Speaker
They've been recreating the Suge for Soldier. Hydra tried to recreate it and experimented on Bucky, which is how we get the Winter Soldier.
01:02:40
Speaker
The Soviet Union did did it to Red Guardian. then... and He and Bucky even have a conversation about it. What kind of super soldier serum did you get?
01:02:52
Speaker
The whole of Captain America Winter Soldier was about like a derivative of that. Yes, this other company, yes, they made a really, really strong super soldier derivative.
01:03:07
Speaker
It killed everyone else. And part of me also wonders if Secret Invasion had been a little better received. Might some of the research that Val's company did have been tied into Fury's collection of Avengers DNA samples?
01:03:28
Speaker
It wouldn't surprise me to like this. because again But we're we're all trying to pretend Secret Invasion didn't happen. Yeah, but i do I am surprised at the fact how they made... What do we got to talk about?
01:03:39
Speaker
Sentry. Yeah. I mean, we already said the name. Yeah, but it's like... I did not expect Sentry to be as quote-unquote accurate.
01:03:52
Speaker
I mean, what this this is one of the cases in the MCU u where a character looked and, for the most part, acted exactly as if they'd stepped out of a comic page.
01:04:07
Speaker
And... but But they use it for a and for is it correctly, and we we'll get to that. For my money, they have, in this two hours, far exceeded every printed appearance of Sentry that there has ever been. I've never been a fan of Sentry.
01:04:29
Speaker
I cannot stand Sentry in the comics. But this... The MCU's entry? That's exactly what I think they should have been going for from the beginning.
01:04:41
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. Let's get it get into one of the... It's it's not my favorite action scene, but the scene where Val brings the Thunderbolts.
01:04:53
Speaker
Ding! Up into the top of Avengers Tower. She wants to make it into the Watchtower. And can I just say that I did enjoy the moment where they're fighting all of the guards downstairs and she just comes over the speakers like, you idiots, the door is open for you. I want you here.
01:05:16
Speaker
Oh yeah, that that that's that's great. That was peak comedy. It's like, you idiots, especially because like i like John Walker just like punches out one more guy.
01:05:28
Speaker
But so we we bring them up and we find out that yeah All through the movie, she's been trying to eliminate them because they are loose threads, because she is under congressional impeachment investigation as the CIA director for all of her various black ops that she's been doing.
01:05:48
Speaker
And she's decided, oh, wait, I can use these losers. they have they have like need These big anti-heroes. These big rogue anti-heroes are attacking this building ah and just for purposes and have been defeated by the sentry.
01:06:15
Speaker
And I do love that like when they get up there, they see her at a bar. They see her at a bar. replicating her own version of the Tony Stark scene in Avengers.
01:06:29
Speaker
Oh, no, actually, it is the actual Tony Stark bar, but it was originally on the right side yeah oh the building. It's now on the left side, a little bit of, like, on left is usually considered the sinister side of things.
01:06:47
Speaker
And it's just, it's a wonderful, and they proceed to get their asses handed to them. Um... that That's a polite way of saying that they get fucking lost.
01:06:58
Speaker
And they leave. like like They leave, and they're like, their their initial reaction is, we can't do this. that That fight scene is it's not a fight scene.
Confronting the Void
01:07:10
Speaker
The Cedric bullied them. Yeah. And it's... and cross Cross and turned to turned Walker's shield into to a taco. Yeah.
01:07:21
Speaker
threw someone out of the window and then brought him back in. Yeah, it's... It's a it's a great... see it It establishes his power levels.
01:07:34
Speaker
it's ah It's honestly scary. It's not even played like, oh, this guy's cool. It's like, no, no, If he wanted to, could kill all of them.
01:07:45
Speaker
And so they... They leave. They run away. And... And the fact yeah that, again, that's itself a fascinating thing. is like He could have killed them all. It's like, he'll let them leave because like he's still like determining wow power.
01:08:05
Speaker
And that's when he turns on Val. Because he's now realizing like the fact, like, oh, that's my opposition? Now, Val had a kill switch implanted in him.
01:08:17
Speaker
that she doesn't get a chance to trigger, but her assistant Mel... She tried to? He's that fast. Yeah. But her her assistant Mel does trigger it. Now, but let's take a quick moment to talk about Mel.
01:08:34
Speaker
Who here thought Mel was going to be Songbird? Me. I thought Mel was going to be Songbird. say i thought I thought the final act, she was going to suit up as Songbird.
01:08:46
Speaker
Same here. Because all of the groundwork was laid throughout the movie. yeah when Because in the comics, Songbird was a former villain who, as part of the original Thunderbolts, who were a team of villains disguised as heroes, she was one of the ones who came to enjoy being a hero and truly became a hero.
01:09:08
Speaker
And she's doing all this dirty work for Val and then decides to start informing to Bucky. And we we heard nicholas the the necklace that is day the necklace that has a bird on it. And Songbird's real name was Melissa Gold.
01:09:27
Speaker
And so, i mean, everything was set up. Even Bucky, you know, when she says, you know, I was a kid when the Avengers came, but now the Avengers are gone. So who's going to come now?
01:09:38
Speaker
And Bucky says, we can be the ones who come now. And she's actively acting against Val. She even gets caught, but not necessarily punished.
01:09:50
Speaker
And so, that I thought that she was going to be Songbird. I'm kind of disappointed that she wasn't. But to to quote to quote the original Colonel James Rhodes in Iron Man, next time, baby.
01:10:04
Speaker
There's no reason to assume that she won't be. because like Like I said, next time, baby. Next time, we'll get into that.
01:10:15
Speaker
We have to get into that anchorage scene. We have to get to the movie. I think it it took a ah little bit thinking about it because yeah when when next we see Bob rather than Sentry, he's Sentry's dark half, the void. The void.
01:10:35
Speaker
And I think it is not coincidental that it is after basically an explosive is set off in his head and kills Bob that the void takes over.
01:10:50
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's a kind of explicit. That kills like the the thing that's keeping him back. And... we We see the Void causing destruction.
01:11:03
Speaker
His shadow powers. Oh, and the design... Can we talk about the design of the Void? That's exactly what I was about to talk about, but dive in.
01:11:15
Speaker
i love the design of the Void. Just the complete shadow. With just the pinpricks of light for eyes. It's Again, it's the same director that did like Lights Out, if you haven't seen that. Great horror movie.
01:11:34
Speaker
But then also the the visual design of the effects of his powers. Oh, those are Those are so horrific.
01:11:46
Speaker
The effects designer has said that he studied the blast shadows in Hiroshima. And it's clear. and for For inspiration. and But the but the the animation style, they toned it down by like like several degrees. were like So it's like immediately. Because if they had a little bit too long ex exposure, it wouldn't look look natural.
01:12:15
Speaker
Yeah. like But and like the what they created. Oh, so everything I saw that they got hit me like a fucking gunshot. And before we get to to a moment of that that I want to talk about, it's important to note that we then start to get scenes of the individual members of the Thunderbolts coming together, or not coming together, but acting to save the people be in the streets of New heroes.
01:12:46
Speaker
Being heroes. And and you know in in one last moment, you see a piece of building that's falling on this little girl. Alexi jumps in and shields her.
01:12:57
Speaker
And it's is's a big, the score even in gives you like that big, like swell. It's a big hero moment. And then and i know he even says like, you're safe, little one. You're safe now, little one.
01:13:14
Speaker
And then, boom, she's shadowed. And it's like, oh, fuck. they They went there. Again, like, it's... And so he coming up next that I want to mention, though, is where all of the layers and ways that they have been handling the the mental health aspects of the story yeah all and all come together beautifully In that the the team is looking at what's going on and there they're coming to the... We we don't know.
01:13:56
Speaker
we can't fight this. it He's already trashed us. And that's when he was holding back. This version of him isn't going to hold back.
01:14:07
Speaker
what What are we supposed to do? The darkness. And he's also the darkness that's inside all of them. And then Yelena just steps forward into the field of darkness. yeah like And...
01:14:22
Speaker
And this plays on so many levels with everything that we've seen. but Her jumping off of the building at the beginning. Walker standing at the edge of the elevator shaft.
01:14:34
Speaker
And her also belief that she did not fight against Sentry. it in the tower.
01:14:46
Speaker
She didn't want to. She knew that he was better than this. this he's That he's being corrupted. But she went in there because she believed, like, I have that darkness.
01:15:01
Speaker
Well, so they and likeking there's multiple there's multiple ways that you can look at it, too, though. Because we have no indication that that can be a portal in anywhere.
01:15:14
Speaker
This is just, yes, she's had that, that wonderful moment with Alexi, but you what hope is left? Yeah.
01:15:25
Speaker
So she just steps into the darkness. A, a, a grand risk. And like, Alexi was like, is like disturbed, but they're like, she went in there and they all go in there and,
01:15:41
Speaker
and That's the truth. And inside, but they didn't say didnt know we see a never-ending series of rooms of the individual's trauma, of Yelena's, of Bob's. Which to have been occurring to every single person in New York in my... God, I can't imagine a worse hell.
01:16:06
Speaker
Yes. Like, oh... God, that must have been terrible.
Resolution & Friendship
01:16:13
Speaker
And ultimately, you know they they make their way through, they find Bob, they find each other. ah again Again, I do... A part of me... I know that for a time, and it would have kind of been... would have derailed the movie to have them all have like their individual like like moments.
01:16:35
Speaker
But I do hope that like if there's an argument of the movie. Like I do want to see like what the ideas were for everyone's, I mean, or given that given that we saw Yelena go through multiple different traumatic events of her past, how much you want to bet that one of the things that Walker sees is him repeatedly killing the guy in the streets from Falcon the Winter Soldier. Yeah.
01:17:01
Speaker
Like I do want to, I want to see that, but I do feel like they made the right choice by picking our main character. And again, I always say, like, the main character is Yelena, but it's like, I do kind of want to at least, like, see, like, at least the, uh, the concept art. Like, there has be, like, a concept art version of this, so.
01:17:25
Speaker
They all make their way through with Bob. they They come to the conclusion that we have to make our way through here. too We need to get to the worst one. Bob has told us that there are worse rooms in here.
01:17:37
Speaker
We need to get to the worst one. And best moment is, and again, like I'm a John Walker fan. like Him punching out. Bob's dad.
01:17:49
Speaker
is like But they they make their way to the lab that Yelena blows up in the opening minutes of the movie. I do love that like you can see the see like the ah like the shadows on the wall in there. But he ignores it because he's so yeah dead inside.
01:18:11
Speaker
And Bob faces off against the void. And Bob starts beating on the void, which then has him starting to turn into the void.
01:18:24
Speaker
Because he's digging into that darkness. He's he's giving into that. Which... that. yeah i I think everyone who has dealt with, like, depression and, like, ah hard feelings is like, you can't give into that.
01:18:41
Speaker
No. and they it just feeds into it. First Yelena and then the rest of them all go and basically hold Bob back. and They drag him out of it. Drag him out. And as corny as it sounds, it it's a group hug that...
01:19:03
Speaker
That saves the day. yeah It's not corny. It's Friendship is Magic, man. what what i What I mean is that saying it as a group hug saves the day sounds corny.
01:19:15
Speaker
The way it is presented in the movie is far from corny. Oh, say what it actually is. Friendship is Magic. Save the day.
01:19:25
Speaker
And... Then we dragged him out of his, they, they dragged him out. He's dragged him out. Yeah. His friends brought him out of the darkness and he's back.
01:19:38
Speaker
He's Bob again. He's not the sentry. He is definitely not. Well, cause he's like, Oh, haven't. He doesn't remember.
01:19:48
Speaker
And, and this is something that they've established earlier in the movie that he has gaps in his memory. Which fits with like, uh, With, like, drug abuse and tons of different... Like, he definitely... And that also fits in with the sentry in the comics.
01:20:09
Speaker
Like, he's a bit off. And so that the they see Val calling for... They are already, like... And they're like, we can't...
01:20:21
Speaker
We can't kill her. And they chase her through... They're like, we can't kill her, but like can we can we break her bones? Yeah. i want And but unfortunately... Unfortunately, she has prepared for this.
01:20:37
Speaker
Because val is Val. Val played... play the Uno reverse card. And they they come through, that they follow her through this curtain, more or less, and find themselves... have card And find themselves faced with a wall of of reporters and cameras where she proceeds to say, oh, a horrible event happened here today, and the the day was saved by...
01:21:13
Speaker
a group of heroes who stepped forward, and these heroes are... the New Avengers. so it i I had that feeling that's go of what they're going to do.
01:21:25
Speaker
Me too. But I didn't expect them how they would do it, but like it, but also I'm damn, Val, that that's smart, that's smart, that's smart.
01:21:36
Speaker
Now, their credit... Both in character and how they want to do it. And to... To their credit, Yelena then, you know leans up and whispers in Val's ear, we own you now.
01:21:52
Speaker
Because they could ruin this whole thing if they open their mouths. yeah does They have all the evidence. They have all the things. They are her dirty little secret.
01:22:05
Speaker
And am Bob. And we then go into the credits, which show us a bunch of of news headlines you... I'd love, honestly, if I had to pick, like, my favorite part of the whole movie, the end credits.
01:22:20
Speaker
Those were brilliant in that they are, like, so our culture right now. Yes, very much so. It's like the huh around the world, the B-Vengers.
01:22:35
Speaker
Yep, it was very, very timely. Honestly, I feel that the the only problem I have is I feel that, like, Marvel and Disney are like, oh, they'll understand this is satire.
01:22:48
Speaker
No, probably not. you You greatly misunderstand how... like ah You misunderstand the guys who sit in front of walls of Funko Pops.
01:22:59
Speaker
They're going to see this like, oh, we're right. like no It's like, no. But yeah. And so we we we get we get a comedic mid-credits scene.
01:23:12
Speaker
That oh they are indeed on the Wheaties box and Red Guardian is in a grocery store trying to hit on a woman who is oblivious to the fact that he's on the Wheaties box.
01:23:23
Speaker
I think he's just trying trying to get hat to buy a Wheaties box. I'm trying to hit it. No, because he was like, that that that's me. As she's walking away, he's like, that's me on the box. and But then we get the longest...
01:23:41
Speaker
The longest post-credits scene that Marvel has done so far. hey there's that One more. ah that there It's like 14 months later. 14 months later.
01:23:55
Speaker
And they are the Avengers. And they're coming back from a mission. But apparently there is some beef with Sam Wilson, Captain America, who has his own team of Avengers and is trying to copyright the name.
01:24:10
Speaker
and is not happy with them assuming the name. and and and ah his discuss that with that that in And it did not go well.
01:24:21
Speaker
And you know we we get we get some Alexi wackiness about, okay, well, if he's trying to to copyright the name, we'll will be the new Avengers with a Z. oh I mean, I assumed that it would We'd go with like a Z, but that'd be more Russian, that's probably not a good idea.
01:24:46
Speaker
But... But still Z. And, you know, they we we have some the type of banter that we expect from Marvel, and then we we get a dimensional incursion alert. that's so Some sort of something that's going from another dimension, and...
01:25:08
Speaker
Which is weird because they're like, we're not being told about the weird space thing. Yeah, why are we being told about the space thing? And then they cut to a satellite view and we see the rocket that we saw in the Fantastic Four trailer before the movie.
Post-Credits & Future MCU Stories
01:25:26
Speaker
Fantastic Four! Which, yeah to to be perfectly honest... if I hadn't kind of thought that the post-credits scene would tie into Fantastic Four, it got kind of spoiled for me at the end of the credits as they were listing the music tracks and they credited the Fantastic Four theme.
01:25:51
Speaker
i saw that and was like, wait, wait. I didn't listen to that. Where was that? But all in all, this was... all in all this was This movie was better than... I was expecting to walk in and enjoy it.
01:26:10
Speaker
I was expecting standard Marvel action-adventure fare, which is not a bad thing or an insult. I was not expecting, but was very pleased to get the dramatic and character meat that was on the bones of this movie.
01:26:30
Speaker
I'm going to say by aye When this was like, I was like excited for like a fun pseudo, like maybe Guardians of the Galaxy style movie.
01:26:44
Speaker
Right. I left and felt like what I think the movie is what it's doing. It's like, this is a launch pad. This is the stepping stone for future Marvel movies.
01:26:57
Speaker
Yeah, this... You have to watch this movie. These characters are going to be important. The fact that it's Fantastic Four is part of it as well.
01:27:11
Speaker
it was this It was a fantastic... No pun intended. It was a fantastic movie. I very much want to see it again. but The last few Marvel movies, I'm not going to jump on the Marvel is dead train. But the last few, I've been like, okay, I wouldn't mind seeing that again, but I haven't been in a hurry.
01:27:32
Speaker
if right If I had to go to my friends who were like, ah yeah where do I need to jump into Marvel? Right here. Yeah, it would. This is strong.
01:27:44
Speaker
Not just because it's good, but there's like strong characters, strong ideas, and getting into the next yeah the next next part of it, which explicitly is the Fantastic Four.
01:28:01
Speaker
We are, this is like, this is definitive, like, if my friend's like, ah what where's the next like definitive like piece of the MCU?
01:28:12
Speaker
Right here. but involved i I honestly, if we go back to, to the structure of the first three phases of the MCU, I would love to have another, ah you know, I would love to have another new Avengers movie before doomsday.
01:28:34
Speaker
you know, I would, I would like to have an age of Ultron for this group of characters. To see them just interact again. To see these actors as these characters.
01:28:47
Speaker
ah like yeah I would like a young Avengers and these new Avengers, but not have like a proper Avengers. Well, I mean, I, I want,
01:28:58
Speaker
I want to see these characters together again. i want to see them interacting, especially if if the story brings the same kind of heft to it that this one did.
01:29:09
Speaker
Because in doomsday in Doomsday, yeah, they're going to be there. We know they're going to be there because their names were on the director's chairs in the five-hour cast reveal.
01:29:20
Speaker
They're going to be buried together. they're goingnna be barr And they won't have as much opportunity to... What I love about Thunderbolt's thing is fact that their stories aren't done.
01:29:38
Speaker
Their characters are so complex, so interesting. i mean and Unfortunately, most of them are, especially Florence Pugh,
01:29:50
Speaker
are so in demand that they there's no way they could do this. But if in between now and Doomsday, they could squeeze in a Disney Plus series with these characters.
01:30:02
Speaker
Yeah. like sure For each of them. They're all the together. but like Oh, no. No. I know i know what they...
01:30:14
Speaker
what they do with the Disney Plus series with these characters. They do New Avengers Spotlight. Oh!
01:30:25
Speaker
Where each episode focuses on a different one of them and then they come together for you know two-part finale. I can see that. It's not going to happen.
01:30:38
Speaker
It's not going to happen. Oh God, I'm already seeing it in my head. Yep. The last episode is Sentry. And it still ends on that final scene. It's like, yeah, I'm not going to do that again.
01:30:51
Speaker
Yeah. It was like, But you should be, I'm not going to be the century. I'm not going to do it. But yeah, I definitely want to see it again. there There's one or two other movies that I haven't seen yet that I kind of want to see first.
01:31:09
Speaker
Looking at you, sinners. But i would love to see this again. I would love to see this again on the big screen. Oh yeah, it was definitely like, I appreciate seeing it on a big screen.
01:31:23
Speaker
It was like... So, any final thoughts from you on Thunderbolts? Um, ah I think I gave my results and my feelings on it.
01:31:35
Speaker
If I had anything to say about like, see it. ah so I'd say, like, see it in theaters. Yes. There were some films that like, yeah, you can watch it at home.
01:31:49
Speaker
And I'm usually a user guy that likes to stay at home. This one is like, it spectacle it's You want to see it in a widescreen.
01:32:01
Speaker
Very much so. Very much so. And i think I've covered pretty much everything that I wanted to, too. so So... I'll say, like, wait a little bit.
01:32:16
Speaker
Wait till it's like in small screens are a little bit like cheaper. See it. See it on ah and a big screen. that go Go see it now.
01:32:27
Speaker
Anybody listening, go see it now. but If you can, depends on budget. But...
01:32:34
Speaker
yeah handson bug but um hopefully everyone has enjoyed this kind of departure from our clone watch series. Uh, I think it is probably safe to say that we will probably plan on doing something similar for Superman and fantastic four when they come out in July. oh And, uh,
01:33:01
Speaker
And we'll we'll do the same then. We might to have a few other voices on with us when we get to that one. And, oh, my God, just the two of us, we've talked for, you know an hour and 45-ish minutes.
01:33:15
Speaker
We get more of us in there. You know, we're we're going to give movie defenders a run for their money. Love you, Scott, Donald, and Brev. Yep. Or are may maybe, since you and Stephanie and I are patrons...
01:33:30
Speaker
All patrons of Movie Defenders, we should see about a crossover episode for one of those. Well, that's pretty expensive. It doesn't cost anything to more people recording.
01:33:41
Speaker
Oh, cool. Doesn't cost anything. to have more people in ah podcast recording oh so doesn't cost anything you know, I mean, doesn't cost anything extra, but I might reach out to them in the next couple of days. so Neato.
01:34:03
Speaker
But yeah, hopefully everyone has enjoyed it. and Next time we will be back to our Clone Watch series as we explore the next few episodes of Clone Wars in Lauren's first watching of it.
01:34:20
Speaker
And then actually look at the calendar. It won't be too many more episodes after that before we hit July and Superman and Fantastic Four. us but very so ah yeah But yeah,
01:34:35
Speaker
this is a special episode. There's nothing that prevents us from releasing extra episodes during a given month other than just everyone's schedules.
01:34:48
Speaker
but So if we can align everything. Let's ah call today's episode. Let's call it a day and let's sign off and hopefully everyone will join us next time. And thanks a lot.
01:35:03
Speaker
See you then. by Bye.
01:35:08
Speaker
This has been casual nerdity. We hope you've enjoyed your time with us and look forward to having you back.