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Secret #47: Living a Meaningful Life with Jenna LeJeune
165 Plays2 months ago
Unveil the secret to crafting a fulfilling life even amid turmoil. In this episode, Dr. Jenna LeJeune, a distinguished psychologist, engages in a profound conversation about what truly constitutes a meaningful life. She emphasizes the power of choice, challenging the notion that there is an inherent purpose to discover, and instead advocates for consciously deciding what principles and values we want our lives to embody.
The episode also tackles the uncomfortable reality that living authentically aligned with one's values often accompanies discomfort and pain. LeJeune sheds light on how our deepest values can bring honor to our suffering, challenging the cultural fixation on feeling good. Rather than fixating on avoiding negative emotions, LeJeune suggests focusing on how we can embody our values in any situation, making values the great equalizer—accessible regardless of external circumstances.
Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own lives, the autopiloted values shaped by history, and the importance of stepping outside oneself to recognize and honor the person enduring hardship. This episode is a compelling guide for anyone striving to live with integrity and intention, offering practical wisdom to navigate the complexities of human experience.
Highlights:
- Creating a Meaningful Life
- Discovering Your Values
- What are Values?
- Suffering and Values
- Values Dilemma in Daily Life
- Challenges with Values
- Approach to Values in Therapy
Recommended
Transcript
The Illusion of Infallibility
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Creating a Safe Emotional Space
00:00:26
Speaker
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is life's dirty little secrets.
Introduction of Dr. Jenna Lejeune
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello, I'm Emma Waddington, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. And I'm Chris McCurry, and today we are very pleased to have Dr. Jenna Lejeune here with us. Jenna is a psychologist. She is the president and co-founder of the Portland Psychotherapy that's in Portland, Oregon.
Jenna's Therapeutic Approach
00:01:03
Speaker
And she specializes in using acceptance and commitment therapy to help those she serves connect with what is most meaningful so that they are able to live lives of purpose and integrity, even in the midst of suffering. Jenna also has specialized training in psychedelic-assisted therapy, and she's doing research in clinical trial trials involving psychedelics. She's the co-author of the book Values in Therapy, a clinician's guide to helping clients develop psychological flexibility and live a more meaningful life
00:01:38
Speaker
as well as numerous book chapters, journal articles, and other publications largely focused on issues related to values, meaning, self-compassion, and shame. And more information about that book will be in the show notes.
Defining a Meaningful Life
00:01:52
Speaker
So welcome, Jenna. Oh, thanks so much. I'm really honored to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I love talking about this topic, so I'm looking forward to it.
00:02:03
Speaker
So let's let's jump in. So creating a meaningful life. What is a meaningful life? All these different ways we can ask this question. Why do you begin to think about what makes a life meaningful? Yeah, when I think about what makes a life meaningful,
00:02:21
Speaker
kind of core to that is the idea of choice. So I am not of the opinion that there is some sort of objective or inherent meaning in life that we are supposed to discover somehow.
00:02:40
Speaker
but rather my work and in my own life, what makes for a meaningful life is is is essentially choosing, saying, hey, you know, if I had, if I got to choose any way of being in this world, these are the things I would like my life to stand for.
Aligning Actions with Values
00:02:59
Speaker
And then organizing my life and my behaviors oh so that it kind of moves me in that direction. That, for me, is a meaningful life. it's When I talk with folks, it's sort of like, imagine getting to the end of your life and like in that split second before whatever happens, everything goes black or white or whatever happens, you have a moment to look back and you say, that that was well-lived. like That's what I'm hoping for when I'm
00:03:32
Speaker
either in my life thinking about values work or with my clients or talking with others about it. Well, hopefully we don't have to live to that quite in order to experience this. That's right. Yes. Probably that's where some psychedelics can come in. Yes. That ability to kind of connect with something greater than yourself. But yes. So finding it signing it in our daily lives. well how do we How do we do that? Because it's it's hard, particularly right now. Yeah. People are yeah struggling.
00:04:02
Speaker
I think there are kind of two ways to look at that question. One is to look at where are the places where you might already be engaging in values consistent behavior or you may already be in contact with your values. And so one of the ways that I encourage people to think about that is I go through your day and when you get to the end of your day, think about what is one moment during that day that you just lived where I felt alive. And notice that alive doesn't necessarily mean happy. Like I feel really alive when I'm, you know, standing up for something that's really meaningful for me, even if I'm not happy. But there's like a sense of life to it. And then
00:04:55
Speaker
when you When you have that little moment in, it may be very subtle. you know For me, when I'm out walking my dog really early in the morning is a moment when I'm in contact with my values, but it's kind of a boring moment, right? But I feel very alive. And so when you look at those moments and then maybe ask yourself,
00:05:17
Speaker
What is a word, an adjective, an adverb that would describe me in this moment, that would describe how I'm behaving in this moment? Like, am I being patient? Am I being warm? Am I loving? And that might give you a clue that you're, that that might be a value for you. So that's one area is to kind of first look, where might you already be valuing or where might values already be?
00:05:46
Speaker
And the second way is just start trying things. like Start out with a bunch of different ideas about values, and we'll talk probably about what values are and aren't, but start out with a bunch of values and then say, okay, I'm going to try on this value today. I'm going to see what happens when I intentionally interact with my kids or go to work or interact with my partner in a way that embodies this value.
00:06:15
Speaker
And then see what the consequences are. Do you like it? Do you not like it? So those are kind of two ways that I encourage people to start exploring their values.
Experimenting with Values
00:06:28
Speaker
Dear listeners, Chris and I are excited to tell you about our work that is currently available for pre-order on Amazon. Justin Case sits with Anxiety is for 8-12 year olds struggling with anxious thoughts and feelings and the tools and ideas in the book are based on acceptance and commitment therapy. In the book, Justin has his first babysitting job and together We help him learn to have his anxious thoughts and feelings and still stay focused on what he needs to do in order to get Joel done well. The book was published with Jessica Kingsley Publishers and is an excellent resource for parents and those working with kids in anxiety. Have a look online and pre-order your copy now.
00:07:09
Speaker
That's kind of a bottom up process rather than saying I'm going to live a certain way. It's it's you're experimenting, you're trying things out, you're it's creating variation and then selecting what works and then like do more of that.
00:07:25
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's part of that choice thing because what for me would feel life-giving and meaningful may not be the same as what it would be for you.
Divergent Values and Partnerships
00:07:42
Speaker
For example, my partner, like being playful and funny for him, those are values for him that just like really bring him alive and he loves that.
00:07:51
Speaker
For me, when I try on those values, it's nice, but they're not my thing. So then I say, okay, I'm going to choose something else. Finding partners who compliment us in that way is good. Yeah. and Exactly. Yeah. So let's talk about, what do we mean by values anyway? Because I know you have some ideas about that. that it's It's kind of a tricky concept, particularly when you try to start labeling things.
00:08:21
Speaker
Well, I do think it i think it's tricky, but I also think it's really important to acknowledge a my perspective on this isn't right. It's not the answer. It's not like the right way to look at values. And even I would say an ACT perspective in general, acceptance and commitment therapy, that perspective on values isn't the right way. like There have been millennia of people and traditions that have been talking about values, so this is not new. What I would say is like what I will describe here is is one way of speaking about values that's consistent with the act
Values vs. Goals
00:09:06
Speaker
or contextual behavioral science approach.
00:09:09
Speaker
It is my way of talking about it, but you can try it on and see if this is helpful for you. When I think about values, I'm thinking about qualities of action. So these are ways of living that kind of result in a sense of meaning or life or purpose or just, I mean, just frankly, they're just sort of like, oh, I like me when I'm behaving that way.
00:09:37
Speaker
I like the person I am. And so one distinct, I'll make two distinctions that often, you know, values is used in a lot of different ways. So from my perspective, I make a distinction between values and goals. So goals are things that can be achieved and ideally goals are in the service of a value, but they're things that can be achieved. Values can't ever be achieved.
00:10:06
Speaker
You know, if I have a value around lovingly caring for my partner, let's say, he will never wake up and say, you done, you completed that, way to go. Like there's always a next step for me to engage more lovingly in the world. But I might say something like many people hopefully choose to have children That's a goal. It's something you can do or not do. Choose to have children as a way to move towards a value of being loving in the world. That would be a but really ideal reason why people might choose to have children. you know like That kind of a relationship could help them engage more lovingly. like So the goal would be to have kids. The value potentially is engaging, loving.
00:11:01
Speaker
and then Finally, kind of relatedly, I make a distinction between values and like value domains or arenas. And so if we take the kids example, family would be a value domain. It's an area of life that people find to be important or not, but it's where you live out your values. But saying like I value family doesn't tell me how I actually want to be with my family.
00:11:31
Speaker
my values tell me how I want to be with my family. So that's in a nutshell how I understand values. I was just listening and thinking that how does suffering, because as we're talking about values, it all sounds really lovely and warm and ah this is the way I like to live my life and this is the when I'm acting in accordance with what truly matters to me, I feel alive.
Pain and Meaning
00:12:00
Speaker
but The truth is that often acting in accordance with my values can actually be quite painful. Absolutely. like And it's like Steve Hayes often was Steve Hayes or Kelly Wilson who said, you know, meaning you'll find meaning where it hurts. And I wonder if it's important for us to touch on that too, for our listeners that no, one of the reasons why we think about values in the work that we do is because often people come to us with a lot of suffering yeah and trying to reduce that suffering, be it you know anxiety, be it low mood, be it struggling in relationships, feels incredibly painful and
00:12:49
Speaker
What we know is that, you know, there's some things that can help feel better in the short term, but really is our work is thinking about what will bring them, meaning what truly is important to them in their relationships, in those areas in which they're experiencing suffering and pain. So I wonder if you could talk to that a little bit because yeah, I think that's,
00:13:16
Speaker
That's where values work can bring, I was going to say real meaning, ah but not to repeat the word at any time, but real solace. Yeah. Yeah, that's a nice word for it. Yeah. so Kind of the way I think about it is that values can bring honor to pain, or values can bring honor in the midst of pain as well.
00:13:43
Speaker
And just to be clear, sometimes I think this gets a little misunderstood in the world. I'm not against reducing suffering. Like if there is a way to reduce suffering, your own suffering that doesn't interfere with your values, i I'm really all about that. And very often people will find that when their eye is focused on living a life that's in line with their values, also sometimes like pain decreases at times. But the point is that we keep our eye on what is ultimately important. And what is ultimately important for most people, we know, is that the absence of pain is not the same as the presence of meaning.
00:14:35
Speaker
And when people think about what a good life is, in general, it is not simply the absence of pain, but there's something else. And so we keep our eye on what is the something else, the values, what makes meaning here.
00:14:54
Speaker
And the piece around bringing honor to pain, sometimes there's no, you know, honor and pain. It's just like, this is a really hard thing I struggle with and it's just going to be there. right But sometimes an example I will, I will ask people often is, you know, they'll talk about, I don't know, let's give an example of a relationship ending either because somebody died or because there's been a breakup or a rupture in some way. And You know, people are in tremendous pain and they want to get rid of the pain. Of course they want to get rid of the pain. And one of the things I will ask them is what what kind of a person would you need to be in order for this not to hurt so much? And would you want to be that person?
00:15:47
Speaker
You know, imagine a dear loved one has died and you're in tremendous pain. Well, the way that that doesn't hurt so much is you're less loving or you're less attached to that person or caring. And then people are able to say, well, I wouldn't want that.
00:16:04
Speaker
And so that can help people sort of see actually your pain tells you what matters to you. And it isn't even just then like, okay, I'll accept the pain, but sort of like, oh, I treasure this because it says something important about me. Brilliant.
00:16:23
Speaker
It started it's so powerful. I love that. And I was just thinking, I was talking in supervision yesterday and your classic pain of a parent is guilt. Oh, yeah. We've talked about it so much and in our podcast that you can't get away from feeling guilt. You just can't. Even those of us who, you know, haven't got a Catholic roots, because I always thought that, you know, Catholics particularly carry pain.
00:16:51
Speaker
It's just a special brand of guilt. It's a special brand, exactly. yeah yes Right. like and you Carrying the cross, I remember. It was an aggression in growing up, but that we carry so much guilt as parents. and and I was talking about a case with a supervisee and we were saying to Sat, what kind of parent would you need to be?
Parenting and Guilt
00:17:18
Speaker
in order not to feel good. Exactly. And i I would respectfully disagree with you. I think you can get rid of guilt. And the way that you get rid of guilt is either you're not a parent at all, and you don't, and i and when I'm saying parent here, i am I don't have children, but when I say parent, I'm talking about kind of in the broader definition of that word, caring for young ones, right?
00:17:44
Speaker
So either you don't care at all but that's kind of your choice you're not a parent or and you don't care about young ones at all you're probably not then gonna feel guilty. That's your choice if you are going to be a parent a caring parent.
00:17:58
Speaker
That comes with guilt. It's just gonna come. And one of the things in in the that example I would say is, and when we're focused on not feeling guilty, or when we're focused on trying to solve the quote unquote problem of guilt, is that helping you move towards being, I'm just using loving as an example value here.
00:18:22
Speaker
Is that helping you move towards being loving, or is that about something else? Is that about just kind of decreasing your own discomfort? And we can help people sort of see like, oh, I actually want to put my efforts towards being the parent I really want to be, not how do I not feel like a bad parent.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, there's so much wisdom and that isn't there in in being able to understand where we want to really put our effort. We had Diana Hill oh and on a conversation about wise effort and I love that term, but really feeling, you know, understanding the wisdom of where do we put our effort? And it's so effortful.
00:19:03
Speaker
to reduce suffering. Like it's so effortful to think about, you know, how do I feel less guilt or how do I worry less about whatever it might be that I'm worrying about? How do I, you know, feel less inadequate? Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
about whatever it is. no I could attach all of that to parenting. But you know there's many other contexts that bring those feelings up. and and Yeah, it's really effortful, and tiring, and mostly ineffective. Well, and and this is the thing. I also think it's both ineffective, but understandable. All of us all of us have sort of been taught this message that the way to live a good life is to try and feel good. and Another way of saying that is to reduce pain or suffering. And so it makes a lot of sense. We all probably, I choose to believe, we all want to live a quote unquote good life.
Redefining a Good Life
00:20:04
Speaker
And if we keep getting these messages that a good life is a life where you feel good, of course we're gonna focus on trying to reduce that pain.
00:20:12
Speaker
But this approach is more like, what if trying to feel good is actually taking our eye off what's important? and If we could keep our eye on what actually would it mean to live well, even when I don't feel good, that I think i think it kind of flips the typical message on its head. I think the message has been you know feeling good is sort of like the report card.
00:20:41
Speaker
you know, it's the indicator of how well life is going. And for parents, if my child is doing well, that's a report card on my parenting. And so if my child is anxious or sad or angry, then I get to feel guilty because I'm doing something wrong as a parent and there we are again, as opposed to, you know,
00:21:03
Speaker
I mean, one of my, and I've heard this a million times in any of our listeners, you know, have heard me say this too, that my favorite definition of resilience is struggling well. Oh, yeah. So, you know, like we're in we're so we're struggling, but we're struggling well. Exactly. Oh, I love that. Isn't that nice? but now I don't know where I got that, so I apologize to whoever came up with that term if I'm not citing you correctly. It wasn't me.
00:21:31
Speaker
but But yeah, I mean, yeah and when our kids are suffering or when our spouse is suffering, our students are suffering for teachers, you know? Emma and I both supervise people, and when our supervisees are struggling, you know, we you know we we feel the compassion that, I gotta help, I gotta reduce this suffering. And we do our best to to, you know, get them to move on from that. But it's it's usually by focusing outward as opposed to focusing inward on. yeah and continue to get stuck and ruminating about that thing that I said to my child 10 years ago that I'm still unhappy about, and he's probably long forgotten. He's holding on to something different, Chris. It's something like completely random that you did that you had no idea was the thing he's going to hold on to. and Yeah, I'm sure that's true, but hopefully he'll never tell me what that is.
00:22:30
Speaker
it's It's just so baked into our society that we need to be feeling a certain way. like I like the the your analogy, Chris, of the report card, be it about our kids, be it about ourselves. you know I had a moment a few nights ago where I was feeling a bit blah about life.
00:22:49
Speaker
like i'm not not feeling it and I didn't really know why. and Immediately, my sort of attention went to figuring out why I'm feeling blah. How do I get rid of this feeling that I don't like? yeah What is it that I need more of to get rid of the feeling? yeah What's to but's to blame? ah What's to blame? Who's to blame? you know Which is my favorite, usually direction. but So it's a default. It's a default.
00:23:20
Speaker
Well, we're problem solvers. Problem solving. Yeah. and like How am I going to get rid of this problem and our community success? Yeah. and and We can use values in the same way. like Very often people will say, okay, well, if I just you know focus on um my values, then I will feel good. It will always feel good.
00:23:46
Speaker
And, you know, MIU asked about like the issue of pain and values. I actually think sometimes the more difficult thing is not those like really strong feelings of pain, but just kind of the everyday, just like, meh, feeling that we think, but I'll give you an example. So when I'm engaged with my values, oftentimes if I can pause and notice what I'm doing,
00:24:15
Speaker
I have a pleasant feeling, but that is absolutely not always the case. And I'm going to trust that my very dear, dear niece won't listen to this. But I will say when she was a teenager, I have a i am a really strong relationship with her and a very strong sense of my values with her that I really want to be present and open and so when she was a teenager or tween and she would talk to me endlessly about whatever the little you know relationship drama was at the moment
00:24:54
Speaker
Was that fun for me? Probably not. You know, I mean, I love you, Josephine, but, you know, it's boring. And I, hate you know, I noticed having feelings of irritation or annoyance or I was just like, ah even though I was engaged with my values. And so what we need to do, what I choose to do in that moment, then this is where self-compassion comes in is I can kind of step outside of myself in my best moments, not most of the time, but and in my best moments, I can sort of step outside of myself and I can see, oh, there's this Auntie Jenna there. Who?
00:25:33
Speaker
Really doesn't want to be having this hour and a half conversation with little Josephine. She's doing it and she's doing it in a way that is open and as open hearted as she possibly can be right now. And then I from the outside can have this sense of warmth and compassion for the Jenna that's there like.
00:25:53
Speaker
Oh man, that's hard to do and you're doing it. Nice job. So sometimes that's what you know values feels like. it's It doesn't always feel pleasant. Josephine, now I always want to listen to everything you have to say. and She was a great teacher for you then. and She certainly was and is, yes. and I used to do something with the kids that I'd work with. I saw video of Steve Hayes doing therapy with somebody and he was talking about two sides of the same coin. And he's saying on the one side of the coin is, you know, the thing you value, it could be a goal, it could be a value. And the other side is that stuff, you know, the challenging stuff. And so I created some coins out of silvery paper and I would have the kids write on one side of the coin, like to be a good teammate or to be a student
00:26:47
Speaker
And then, okay, what's on the other side? Because if you, if the challenging stuff, you know, and, you know, listening to your, your niece prattle on about some like, you know, middle school drama that you've heard like before, you know, run but if you, yeah, boredom, judgmentalness, yeah, and impatience, you know, but if you, if you toss that out, you're tossing out that too. exactly and But it's remarkable how many kids have never heard of the idiom two sides of the same coin. And it's also incredibly difficult to explain. It's like, well, they're two sides. So anyway, nevermind. Here, fill this out. But then they take the coin home and they can put it someplace where they can remind themselves that this is why I'm trying to be a good big brother. And every parent has a bunch of coins.
00:27:39
Speaker
You know, yeah although the the you know the the fourth time you've played Candyland, you know, in that hour and your left eye is starting to twitch, you know. Right, its right. yeah So, yeah, I mean, it's it's we have to we have to continuously remind ourselves, you know, that this is this is a package deal.
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. i don't do that I don't choose these values because they make me feel good. I choose them because this is the life if I had if I got to choose, this is the life I would choose to live. I would choose to be a present an open-hearted ante and all of my other values just just because just because that's what would be a good life for
Values and Time Management
00:28:29
Speaker
me. A lot of times it feels good, but certainly not at 5 AM m when I'm walking my dog in the rain, does it feel good.
00:28:36
Speaker
yeah As we're talking about parents, I guess one of the things that sometimes I wonder is this values dilemma or this values conflict or even not as a parent, like just generally. So I was thinking of these examples like playing. So I have lots of moments with my three children.
00:28:58
Speaker
where I have to make a decision on who I hang out with or you know do I finish my emails or do I just sit down and watch a program and have them complain about my neglect or you know whatever it might be that is happening and those moments where all of that might feel important or maybe you know they do want me to hang out and play a board game, but I'm feeling really tired and a bit over Candyland or whatever it might be. I'm actually not great at board games. That is one of my weak spots. But you know how do we make a decision in those moments on what to lean into? yeah yeah Because it's not feelings, feelings that are going to guide us necessarily. but
00:29:48
Speaker
How do we make a decision? It's a really wonderful point. And what I would say is that... So without getting into too much of the kind of philosophical stuff in ACT, the type of therapy that we're talking about here, my orientation.
00:30:05
Speaker
What is true is what works. And so when I say it's true or not true, I'm simply meaning because it's useful or not useful. Right. And so I would say the, am I going to hang out and play a board game with my kids or am I going to spend that time, you know, preparing for a session for a client that is suffering both, you know, honorable, potentially activities. I would say that is not a values conflict.
00:30:35
Speaker
I would say that is a time conflict. you You can't be doing both of those things at the same time. But you could be engaging in your values while you are playing Candyland or while you are doing the kind of prep for your client. That values are always immediately available to you in any context.
00:31:04
Speaker
So what I would say is an example, like when I'm working with clients and i who, let's say they're feeling guilty about whatever, spending more time at work than they would choose to, and they're doing that for a variety of reasons. What would, if you knew that you were going to be at work, how could you be at work and do that in a way that helped you be more of a loving parent?
00:31:33
Speaker
Could that be you practiced being loving with your colleagues? Could that be you practice being patient with yourself even though you're frustrated that you're still at work and feeling guilty? Would those be qualities that you would want to bring into your parenting life that you could actually be intentionally practicing while you're at work so that you're not making these things in competition with one another?
00:32:00
Speaker
right And of course, yes, there are lots of things to do about you know navigating time commitments and all of that stuff, but i I don't think it's useful to frame them as values conflicts. Yeah, because the bottom line is it all it they both matter for different reasons.
00:32:18
Speaker
or they also matter. This is actually when you think about like why I got into values work and what i what is my favorite part about it, is I see values as the great equalizer. It
Universal Access to Meaning
00:32:33
Speaker
truly does not matter what your history is, what has been done to you. It doesn't matter where you are in this particular moment. I could be in solitary confinement in a prison.
00:32:48
Speaker
And there is an opportunity there for me to take a step towards my values. So you could be at work. You could make that choice to stay at work, or maybe you don't see it as a choice to stay at work, or you can do Candy Land. And you could do that in a way that embodies your values. And that's why I love values. It feels like there's so much inequity in this world, but this is like the one place where Everybody's on an equal playing field. Everybody gets to live a life that is in the service of what would matter to them.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of freedom there, isn't there? Yeah. In that place. Yeah. You can flip burgers at McDonald's in a way that is in line with your values, or you could be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and do that in a way that embodies your values.
00:33:46
Speaker
It doesn't really matter.
00:33:52
Speaker
And the flip side of that is you could do either of those and not be living. Yeah, absolutely. And we see plenty of examples of that, yes. Yeah, we really do.
00:34:07
Speaker
Well, let me raise the issue of, you know, cause I can imagine some listeners are thinking, well, what about people that have really like rotten values, like sociopaths and people would say, you know, my value is to make other people really miserable and to feel powerful. In fact, you know, we seem to see that in the news every day that they're, they're,
00:34:35
Speaker
just people out there who are very narcissistic and greedy and this they seem to be living those values to the detriment of ah of other human beings.
The Impact of Insecurity
00:34:46
Speaker
How do we fit that into all this? Your turn of phrase there was helpful, Chris, you said living their values and maybe one thing to kind of highlight here is people are valuing you are valuing something. I am valuing something all of the time. Right now, by choosing to be here, I'm valuing something. It may or may not be what I would choose to value if I were free to choose.
00:35:19
Speaker
So when I see examples of people who are valuing things that seem, at least to me, very problematic, one way I could look at that is, okay, well, maybe they're evil or they're sociopaths or whatever it is. Maybe that is the case. I don't know what to do with evil. And so that's kind of not a helpful way for me to look at it.
00:35:45
Speaker
Instead, the way that I would frame it that gives me more workability is saying, I wonder if they are choosing, if they are valuing something that if they were really free to choose, they wouldn't actually value that thing. So many people, let's take power for an example.
00:36:06
Speaker
many people kind of organize their life around valuing being powerful. When I work with those folks or the people I know in my life that are kind of valuing that, when you can really dig and when they can get vulnerable, it's sort of like, well, I'm valuing that, i'm i'm I'm focusing on that, they wouldn't say valuing. like I really want to be powerful because then I won't get hurt.
00:36:33
Speaker
or then I won't be so scared or whatever it is or something like that, or then I'll feel good about myself. And so often we get back to what we were talking about before, it's trying to like feel a certain way, right? Or more importantly, not feel a particular way.
00:36:53
Speaker
And so when I'm talking with those folks and I say, okay, let's say you did feel secure or you did feel really good about yourself and you were going to stay that way the rest of your life, would you still, would like having power still be the thing that you really want to spend your life focusing on being powerful or would there be some other way of living that would feel like you might choose?
00:37:21
Speaker
Almost invariably people will say well. Yeah i mean if i already felt totally secure and i knew i would never get rid of that then i would choose to be generous. So that is a useful way for me to frame it especially when i think about the like clients that i serve or people that are in my life when i think about.
00:37:42
Speaker
You know, I'm a human being, so when I watch the news, I too have judgments about what people are choosing to value and not value. But with my clients, I can get to the place of like, oh, oh, darling, I don't think that's why you would choose to value. let's see Let's see if we can give you a bit of a sense of choice and then see what emerges.
00:38:04
Speaker
Where you're not so sort of under aversive control where you're not so. Operating from a place of scarcity or fear but you could operate from a place of abundance. You got to live from this place of abundance what would you choose and that's what i'm trying to help with my clients.
00:38:20
Speaker
do Well, I mean, if we think about it in those terms that, you know, some some of the folks that we see on the news every day are operating from a place of insecurity and fear and a history that's shaped them that way. Of course. it It does allow us to be a little more compassionate even while we're in fear of what they're going to do. But yeah, it's yeah so anyway, we're not going to solve those problems with this podcast.
00:38:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm probably not going to solve them at least. so No, but it's it's good to think about you know the the choices that we can make and you know that that even though it won't necessarily feel good all the time, we're we're living a valued life, we're living a meaningful life and that there's there's something very positive about that, and and and at least in my experience.
00:39:15
Speaker
Well you also said something I think important there Chris in that you know we're shaped up our behaviors are shaped up by our history and I do think that that's a pretty important thing for people to attend to is that if we are always valuing something by our behavior then if we're not intentional We're going to be valuing whatever our history has shaped us to value too important, right? We're going to be important in whatever our history has taught us to important. And one example I'll often give, like if I give trainings on this topic is I have a history.
00:39:53
Speaker
that taught me to value looking smart, that this was really important in the context that I grew up in. And so it's just sort of in there and ah certainly nothing wrong with looking smart. I enjoy it when I look smart. But you know, if I get to the end of everything and again, my niece Josephine's talking at my eulogy like, oh, auntie looks so smart all the time. That's just not really the thing I care about her saying, right?
00:40:18
Speaker
But what I notice happen is, ah especially if I'm in a context where I'm you know training with professionals or with clients, if I'm not really intentional, start my behavior starts being about, oh, how can I look smart? How can I? And so I do think it's important for us to notice, hey, what am I valuing right now so that we can disengage that autopilot piece? Like maybe somebody's history You know, shaped them to value being powerful. Okay. So how do you start noticing, oh, there, I'm doing it again. I'm valuing that thing. I'm important in that thing. Okay. I'm going to just shift. So I stopped valuing that. Well, it's, it's like our programming and you can't delete.
00:41:07
Speaker
programming. i think you know It's not, you know, you still kids, you know, our brains are very much like computers because they both have programs in them, but you can't delete our programs and our brains. All you can do is override them with new programming. And you can notice when I'm doing old programming and say, oops, and then exactly try to initiate the new programming that hopefully will work better. But yeah, it's it's there. It's not going anywhere.
00:41:34
Speaker
so Nope, I will probably always be pulled to that when I'm not intentional and that's fine. I've learned some skills about then how to be more intentional and catch those moments so I can course correct. right i like I like what you said about importanting. Importanting, yeah. Importanting, yeah. So a lot of this stuff is, you know these are verbs, not not nouns in our lives. Yeah.
00:42:02
Speaker
Definitely. Valuing, you know, important thing. It's a little awkward, but I think the awkwardness actually makes us slow down and pay attention a little bit. And the same thing with meaning, too. Like, my my take on it is not that meaning is this thing that is out there, but meaning is something that we we create. We choose, we say, this would be what is a meaningful life for me, and then we create that meaning.
Self-Created Meaning
00:42:32
Speaker
for ourselves by living in line with our values. So yeah, it's very much, these are verbs, not not not nouns. Yeah, I've always liked the aphorism paths are made by walking.
00:42:48
Speaker
Yes, I love that. That's very nice. and As I was thinking about the programming, I love that idea that obviously our history shapes us and we can't get rid of that much to our horror. This programming, there's nothing that we can do short of a lobotomy and even then I'm not that would help, but but to get rid of those parts of us. I was thinking of the programming that you described, you know trying to be sound clever. okay as it and It's It could keep you up, but it's not a disaster. But I can hear some programming of, you know I'm a bad person or I'm in trouble. That's a big one for me.
00:43:32
Speaker
and how when we have those that programming, it really narrows our attention, doesn't it? To really try and find you know if the programming is something about ah and of us you know self descriptions about ourselves, then we sort of narrow our attention to look for, is it true? right Am I sounding like Am I a bad person? Am I going to get in trouble here? And it kind of cuts out a lot of the experience of what's happening in that moment. Threat estimate has been activated. Right, right. And so, of course, our attention gets narrowed because that's adaptive to narrow its focus on the threat. Yep. Sorry, I interrupted you Emma.
00:44:17
Speaker
But it's so you know you're absolutely right and i think in those moments clients will go well why would i want to look stupid or why would i want to be a bad person or why would i write and that's the suffering that we're trying to get rid of and nobody wants you to be about.
00:44:33
Speaker
to sound stupid or to get in trouble but in those moments is that's the invitation to think about you know what do i want this moment to really be about yeah is the is the ultimate kind of again if if you could really freely choose from anything are you really gonna say like i wasn't a bad person that's kind of the life that you wanna live or No, probably not. Probably you want something else in your life. and That story about you being bad or broken or harmful or something like that, that the more that you are like focused on, I have to fix that story. I have to become unbroken in some way. like you just sort of You're getting trapped by that old programming that you have. and Maybe you could just
00:45:29
Speaker
sort of let it be there that's why i like my smart example is because it's not it's not a big thing and so it can just sort of be there is just like. Okay i'm supposed to look smarter and not looking smarter whatever it is and maybe i'm broken could also be a story that just sort of sits there like okay i'm broken sits there.
00:45:50
Speaker
and As it sits there, we can be whatever we want to be in that moment. So for example, well you know you're having the I do like your I'm smart example because most people could be okay with that.
00:46:04
Speaker
Well, not everybody, but you know most people wouldn't feel massively tripped up yeah by that story. But that I'm a bad parent, or I'm a bad person, or I'm a burden to massively trip us up. But often what it tells us to do moves us away from life worth, life that brings meaning. It makes us hide or makes us scramble to try and be a good person and do everything right. You have a very tight place and very big place versus if we'd be there and we could freely choose, like you said, in that moment, what kind of person do I want to be in this moment?
00:46:49
Speaker
I love that in this in this moment, Emma, right because in that moment, what's happening in that moment, you are coming into contact with a person that feels like that believes that they're a terrible parent.
00:47:05
Speaker
And how would you wanna be towards that person who's suffering in that way? That's where values can come in. is This is where you know we talk about, in act we talk about this as flexible perspective taking or selfless context. The idea is can you step outside of yourself in that pain in the moment and look at, or said there's a you there, there's a person there that's in pain. And what do your values tell you about how you'd wanna be to somebody who's in pain there?
00:47:34
Speaker
And that's that self compassion. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't probably say, Oh God, you're totally right. Let's really work on making you not a bad parent. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, we have to do hard things and these you know feelings show up. Be it, you know, you have to let someone go at work or you have to say no to your child or you've got to you know Sit down and do a really difficult piece of work when your head is telling you you're useless at this. you know Life brings us these opportunities to really practice.
00:48:14
Speaker
living a rich and meaningful life, which includes doing those things that feel really difficult and bring up a lot of our programming. yeah um And often often, I think, our programming shows up the most, like, you know, Chris was saying, when we are up against what matters the most. Oh, of course. Yeah.
00:48:34
Speaker
sir It sucks sometimes. I've felt, I have felt guilty about making parenting decisions that I knew were the right decision to make, but I felt guilty about it because it didn't make my son feel very good. But right it was in the moment, you know, I think the right decision to make, even though he wasn't happy with it. And I felt terrible and I still feel terrible. It's been 20 years, but um and that's only just one example. But, you know, yeah, the feelings that you're having doesn't necessarily validate or have any significance to to whether or not what you did was the right thing to do. I'm not saying that well, but... no yeah
00:49:22
Speaker
in the same way that you know the boredom and the tedium and the frustration you feel listening to and know your niece or standing on the side of a soccer field in the rain watching your kid's team lose again. you know I mean, that didn't feel very good, but damn, I was being a good dad. Yeah. and If your eye is focused on how do I not feel like a bad parent, then what you would do in that moment, Chris, is you would actually have not done the quote, right thing. You wouldn't have done the thing that you sort of knew was the the parenting thing that was in line with your value. Cause you didn't want to feel guilty. You didn't want to have like the, the oh gosh, there I'm a bad parent cause my kid feels bad. So this is where trying to not feel bad can very often take us off course from our values. Right. Yeah. Aborting that. Yeah.
00:50:21
Speaker
It's a playing not to lose. Yeah. Yeah. They say in sports. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything we've missed? Any little thing that you do on a daily basis? A little nuggets of go forth and do. no Yeah. I guess maybe this would be a thing for me, especially kind of in the last many years. I have I've really found that my values work both with clients, but also in my own life. It's really important for me to be able to step outside of myself when I do that. And so oftentimes that means connecting with me as part of something greater than simply myself or my own little bubble.
00:51:12
Speaker
And then sometimes that means kind of like I was describing to you, Emma, stepping outside of my own immediate kind of story about, oh, I'm terrible, or oh, I stink at this, or whatever it is. And then look at the person that's there. And as soon as I can like look at there's a person that's suffering, or in my world I care a lot about non-human animals, so I just say, look at that critter who's suffering.
00:51:38
Speaker
You know whether it's a bipedal or quadruped like how do i want to be in the face of suffering what are my values tell me. How do I want to show up in the face of suffering? And then sometimes that means how I treat myself or how I treat others, but I try and have consistency there among all critters. And sometimes the hardest person to live out your values with is yourself, because woo it's easy to get real frustrated and real judgy of yourself. So I guess that would be maybe a last thing that I would.
00:52:11
Speaker
I would hope that people would also be able to have live out their values and their relationship with themselves. Because it turns out like the relationship you spend the most time in is the relationship with yourself. So hopefully you are practicing living out your values in that relationship. I love that. Really important and often very much neglected. Absolutely. and as In the way that we carry ourselves, it will influence the way we support others.
00:52:40
Speaker
Yeah. If you just think about it as like, if values were a practice or a muscle, if I'm spending most of my time sort of practicing being a jerk to myself, that's the like values muscle I'm practicing is probably not going to help me be openhearted in those times when I'm feeling kind of annoyed at whoever it is that's annoying to me. So I got to practice that with myself. Oh, I really appreciate getting to talk with you both. That's been a real pleasure.
00:53:09
Speaker
and we'll have information about your books and your practice in the show notes. That sounds great. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Jenna. Absolutely.
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00:53:22
Speaker
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Speaker
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