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Secret #45: ADHD in Women with Michaela Thomas
192 Plays3 months ago
Unlocking the complexities of ADHD and perfectionism can be a game-changer for many seeking self-understanding and balance. In this episode, Michaela Thomas, a senior clinical psychologist, delves into how self-identification and formal diagnosis can transform lives in therapeutic and group coaching settings. She sheds light on the nuanced relationship between ADHD and perfectionism, explaining how perfectionism often suppresses joy and hinders self-expression.
Thomas passionately explores the heightened sensitivity to rejection that individuals with ADHD experience, tying it to past ostracization and the resulting hypervigilance in social situations. This conversation is packed with insights on managing multiple responsibilities and the challenges of binary thinking common in ADHD.
From discussing the ADHD brain’s unique motivations—including urgency, interest, challenge, and novelty—to addressing emotional variability and hormonal influences, Michaela Thomas offers a comprehensive view of ADHD. She recommends Jennifer Kemp's "The Neurodivergence Workbook" and invites listeners to her podcast "Pause Purpose Play," promising a continuation of this vital discussion.
Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry add depth by focusing on compassion, self-awareness, and practical strategies to manage ADHD symptoms. Whether it's understanding coping mechanisms or debunking misconceptions about ADHD in women, this episode is a treasure trove of information for anyone navigating the ADHD journey.
Listen in to discover empowering insights and practical tips for harnessing the strengths of ADHD while mitigating its challenges. This episode is essential for those seeking to better understand their own minds or support loved ones with ADHD, all through a lens of compassion and self-compassion.
Highlights:
- ADHD and Perfectionism Connection
- Emotional Sensitivity in ADHD
- ADHD Diagnosis as a Starting Point
- ADHD Coping Strategies for Women
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Transcript
Society's Acceptance of Fallibility
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. All the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out. Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is life's dirty little secrets.
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to Life's Sturdy Little Secrets.
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:44
Speaker
I'm Emma Waddington. And I'm Chris McCurry. And today our guest is Michaela Thomas. We're delighted to have her. She's a senior clinical psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of the Psychology Practice, The Thomas Connection. She's also the author of The Lasting Connection, Developing Love and Compassion for Yourself and Your Partner.
ADHD in Women: Specialization and Misconceptions
00:01:08
Speaker
She has an award-winning podcast Oz Purpose Play. And Michaela specializes in the intersection between perfectionism and and ADHD with ties to stress, anxiety, depression, procrastination, burnout, productivity, and overall well-being. We will have information about her and all the wonderful things that she's doing in our show notes for this episode. So welcome, Michaela. Thank you so much for being here.
00:01:36
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. I just already feel that this is going to be a very authentic slash chaotic conversation. authentic because I think we we all have a bit of what we're going to be talking about today. ADHD specifically as it relates to women and I'm guessing professional women. So start us off with just kind of a bit of a broader, higher level view of this whole issue of ADHD.
ADHD Presentation Across Life Stages
00:02:05
Speaker
I know working with kids for all these years, I've seen a lot of
00:02:09
Speaker
what people call ADHD and it always mystifies me how different it can present in different people and in some of the misconceptions about it. So what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think it's really nice to remind yourself of the phrase of once you've met one ADHD or you've met one ADHD or you can replace that with one neurodivergent person because the presentations are so wildly different. And that is something that can stop people self-identifying or recognizing the traits in themselves because they might see ADHD as being synonymous with this
00:02:45
Speaker
you know little boy with ants in his pants, who absolutely there can be a presentation that looks like that, the hyperactive little boy who can't sit still. But it's not always like that. And something that we've seen a lot through now being and able to fund more research around ADHD and women specifically, because most of the previous research was done on boys and men, we can see that the different hormonal impacts also means that agency presents it differently across the lifespan of a woman as well, with particular challenges around, say, adolescence, pregnancy, postpartum, and also my current stage, perimenopause, where everything just goes to shit.
00:03:25
Speaker
So but that's something I think is really fascinating of understanding why so many many women are late diagnosed, partly because we then been operating for the last three, four decades on the decades on this notion that ADHD means hyperactivity. You can't sit still, and if you can sit still, you cannot be ADHD. That's just simply not true.
Diagnosis Challenges for Women with ADHD
00:03:47
Speaker
Secondly is that those women who've grown up with that notion that ADHD is just hyperactivity,
00:03:54
Speaker
They have not necessarily struggled as much as they currently do because their challenges in life have been increasing incrementally, exponentially. So just from my personal experience, but for definitely the women I meet in my clinic, when they get pregnant, if they become mothers, that's where it gets even more challenges. This is the hormonal aspects that women uniquely have where we're looking at estrogen and progesterone and how that fluctuates across the lifespan.
00:04:23
Speaker
Then you look at say when they come into perimenopause where estrogen is fluctuating even more. And they then have maybe a couple or even like three kids in your case, Emma. That adds to the chaos, right? And maybe some of those children are neurodivergent. So that adds further to the load on their capacities, their executive functioning, their ability to do things like planning, structuring their day, remembering things, all the admin that having kids involves, that's really difficult, really taxing. So if you look at the average age of diagnosis for women today with ADHD, it's about 36, 37 in the UK.
00:05:02
Speaker
That kind of makes sense for where a woman is when she's 36, 37, coming into midlife, maybe in the most senior role she'd been in ever at work with more senior responsibility, having children, having fluctuating hormones, and wham, you suddenly can't cope anymore.
00:05:19
Speaker
Because up until then, how were women coping? If we're thinking specifically about women who do have ADHD, why is it that it's almost like the perfect storm, everything comes together, the whole kind of influence on our cognitive functioning, the sort of increasing demands? Is it that we just get to a point where we no longer have the ability to cope with the load? if Is it quite literally a load on our cognitive ability. Is that what it is or is there something else? Yeah, partly that.
Coping Mechanisms: Masking and Perfectionism
00:05:53
Speaker
And partly, I guess it's that some of the ways that we traditionally try to cope with this, for instance, masking, which means that we suppress our need to move or suppress our urge to speak or suppress any impulses we might have.
00:06:11
Speaker
and trying to fit in, trying to be like those other people, trying to be normative, trying to be typical. So masking is a term that has been around for a little while, but it might not be very well known. And that can help women who often have been socialized differently from an earlier age. We're doing more role playing to socialize. They may be learning a little bit more of the rules of the game so they can try to fit in.
00:06:37
Speaker
But that's hugely taxing. It's very exhausting to try to constantly mask and say the thing that you think is expected of you rather than saying the thing that you actually want to say. So masking is one thing and kind of almost seeing it as camouflaging yourself to fit in. That's very difficult. But another thing that I specialized in for 15 years before I realized that half my caseload were also meeting criteria for ADHD is perfectionism.
00:07:04
Speaker
So perfectionism, people pleasing, overworking, repeated burnout cycles, all of those things where the things were my bread and butter in my clinic, the things I was seeing. And when I then got my own ADHD diagnosis, it sort of clicked that, ah, okay, these are the things we do to cope. These are the things we do to try to suppress the urges, try to fit in and try to do things to hide the chaos we have underneath. well That's quite incredible.
00:07:32
Speaker
I think you came to that conclusion because I see and a lot of women with perfectionism more than men. We see a lot more women who are perfectionistic, have these kind of unrelenting standards across their lives as parents, as working women, as everything really. and And they also tend to be very self-critical with that perfectionism. and And until recently, I'd never connected it to ADHD.
00:07:59
Speaker
I just thought it was you know very rigid beliefs about themselves and how things should be done. I didn't think it was compensating. for a difficulty, an underlying difficulty. i I think that has been really, that has shifted my view of a lot of the clients that I work with and even myself thinking you about how really perfectionism is a compensation as opposed to a way of coping, as opposed to a series of beliefs about how things should be done.
00:08:31
Speaker
Well, it can be both. Obviously it's multi-dimensional that, and I think you mentioned self-criticism, and I want to just touch upon that as well, that what we know from the research around growing up with ADHD, and especially if we don't know about it, and I'm sure Chris could weigh in on that as well as a child psychologist, that we get told a lot of negative comments.
00:08:52
Speaker
you're too late again or don't be clumsy, you're lazy. All the things that are little remarks on the behavior and the conduct on children with ADHD gets internalized to self-criticism over time.
ADHD Cycles: Procrastination and Burnout
00:09:05
Speaker
And there's some harrowing research that says that you've had 12,000 negative comments by the age of 12 or something like that.
00:09:12
Speaker
that is then becoming internalized as your own inner dialogue that, oh, I'm just so lazy. Why can't I get myself started today? Why can't I remember this appointment? Or why did I forget to do this thing again? And then you lay on the shame and the self blame and the guilt. And there we have kind of the recipe for coming into depressive cycles as well. You can end up with, you know, the, and again, this may fall under gender lines. I don't have the research, but You get a lot of boys that hit, you know, in the States, it's called fourth grade. So, you know, 10, 11 years old, and they just give up academically. Because again, it's kind of like what you were describing before, where the demands increase. So the shift between third grade and fourth grade is huge in terms of the type of material that kids have to learn. you'
00:10:04
Speaker
reading to learn as opposed to learning to read and you have multiplication and division which are very holistic as opposed to the linear stuff of adding and subtracting. And so if some boys you know they hit that and all of a sudden things are hard and they they quit and then the girls again you know over generalization are gonna work harder.
00:10:25
Speaker
So, you know, there's coping and then there's compensation and then there's perfectionism. It's kind of on a continuum. And so perfectionism is when it gets the poxic. Yeah, absolutely. And we get praised for that. That's the thing about the narrative of being a good girl. You know, in the classroom, we know that girls get different attention to boys. um Even if a teacher is trying to be as conscious as possible, there are, you know, gender norms and stereotypes about how how a boy and a girl behaves and boys can be excused. More of that may be distracted or hyperactive behavior and girls can be
00:11:00
Speaker
told off for those things. And so there's a lot of overcompensating to that of trying to be a good girl, do what's expected of you. And this is where I often see when women come into midlife, when they've come to the point where they realize, actually, I don't want to just do what's expected of me anymore. I want to live a life that I enjoy, that I feel is fulfilling. And that's where it can have real sort of midlife clarity and realize I've been doing everything else for everyone else, including maybe being a carer.
00:11:27
Speaker
my whole life. And when is it my turn? And that can be linked with sort of that sense of strong sense of empathy and compassion that a lot of ADHD women also experience. They can feel very deeply, very intuitively for others. And that can mean that they're more prone to vulnerable to burnout because they overstretch themselves and overdeliver for others and don't meet their own needs.
00:11:50
Speaker
That's such an important piece. So the burnout piece is is fascinating for me because I hadn't realized to what degree women with ADHD can burn out.
00:12:01
Speaker
I've had clients that will tell me that, you know, they work incredibly hard, perfectionistic, relentless. And it's kind of that hyper-focus and burnout or hyper-focus, perfectionism and burnout seem to follow a sequence. Maybe you could, like a roller coaster, if you may. Yeah. Could you talk a bit about that? Cause I find that fascinating because it kind of doesn't follow. Well, it is a burnout, but it feels almost more physical.
00:12:29
Speaker
than the burnout perhaps from this sort of relentless amount of stress. Like some of the women that I work with, when they get their ADHD burnout, they are out. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very, I mean, that's why chronic fatigue is overrepresented in ADHD women as well. And it's all linked. It's really all linked. Autoimmune disorders are overrepresented, chronic pain, migraines. A lot of the things, they're just your body saying, you know, enough, you've done more than you can cope with. You've gone over your capacity. And that's where I think the the patterns are so cyclical where they might then have a period of
00:13:05
Speaker
being a bit procrastinated or maybe struggling with their task initiation and getting going. Then they beat themselves up a bit for that because everyone else is so motivated. Why can't I do my stuff? They finally drop into hyper focus. Okay. Okay. I can get going now. I'm going to do these things.
00:13:21
Speaker
get interested in it usually motivated by a sense of urgency because the deadline is looming and usually because cortisol has kicked in, the stress hormones have kicked in, adrenaline, ah okay I'm going to go and that's where they do a 2am kind of late deadline staying up really late.
00:13:39
Speaker
and working through all the cylinders basically burning the candle at both ends and then after that eventually they crash because hyper focus cannot last in you know in definite amounts of time so i call that the hyper focus hangover where you feel awful right so they go into the. Procrastination coming into the okay must do something now is last minute com need to get going.
00:14:05
Speaker
hyper focus over work then often feel a bit dissatisfied with what they've also put together because they started too late and didn't have the time to really give it it the attention it needed that was seen in perfectionism as well and then beat themselves up a little bit more for being in this pattern again.
00:14:24
Speaker
being in the crash where they can literally be out for the count and needing to be signed off sick from work or just lie in bed. It can be very kind of completely depleting. And then it starts over again because that crash has then fueled another episode of procrastination and slump. So around it goes.
ADHD Mindset: Meerkat and Sloth
00:14:43
Speaker
I think of it as the meerkat and the sloth, right? This actually came from my own sister's account of who I am for my ADHD assessment. And she said, Michaela has two modes, the meerkat and the sloth. The meerkat is when I'm constantly like attentive and like looking around and, well, what's going on? What's going on? I mean, you know, sidetracked by squirrels. That's where you're really focused. And then suddenly you can't do that anymore. You're an out of the meerkat steam and you become a sloth.
00:15:10
Speaker
and just very stationary and like, oh, I can't be bothered. So that's why I think sort of using these sort of metaphors can help us understand that it's not your fault, but you do need to recognize which state you're currently in, how you got into that state, what's going to help rather than be harmful for you to come out of that state. And now you can gently guide yourself through that.
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah. That's that self compassion piece that you were talking about at the beginning because clients of mine, when they get, you know, they're very hard on themselves because they procrastinate and they don't and understand. It doesn't make any sense. Why can't I just get going? And then they do exactly like you said, or they'll work really hard and do you know tremendous amounts of work, neglect everything else. And I think that's really important to mention because Most people recognize this, you know, we all procrastinate on, we all leave things for last minute and we all have a tendency to sort of focus on something if we're really interested in it. But I think the difference is that hyper focus is to the detriment of everything else, every other cue in our body.
00:16:19
Speaker
even sleep or eat, which is why it ends up in the burnout. Like we're in that, what you said, sloth. It's a really good metaphor. And getting out of that cycle is really difficult.
00:16:32
Speaker
you have any So the self-compassion piece is really important to recognize that there is something sort of you know cognitively the way we approach things, the things that
Managing ADHD Focus and Energy
00:16:41
Speaker
motivate us. I love one of the metaphors that they use in the Neurodivergent Woman podcast, where they talk about ADHD being, sort of I'm going to butcher their version. But there's like that we have our our office, but our office is very under-resourced.
00:16:58
Speaker
and it only has two admin and the admin have a dilemma. They either attempt everything, which means you know nothing gets done very well and it's very chaotic and disorganized, or they only go for one thing, but that means that everything else is neglected. it and I think that's a very compassionate realization. I think a lot of people recognize that simply true.
00:17:23
Speaker
that they can't do everything the same way they'd like to. And they have to make these choices and having that for more compassionate lens perhaps helps them to yeah to hold it more lightly, as we say in our ACT community model that we use. less arguing against yourself, less fighting against the fact that this is likely to happen, that you are likely to have a slow start. I think of it similar to how I learned about managing my asthma when I was a child. I was told that it's really helpful for my lung capacity for me to be able to do exercise by doing it a slightly longer warm-up.
00:17:58
Speaker
right? We're not just going to go off you go and run because then my usually I would sort of make my lungs would feel a bit too challenged by that. So I think if it's sometimes we just have a slightly longer warm up before we can train. And then when we're off, we're pretty sprinty.
00:18:14
Speaker
And to the point where sometimes you have to slow us down because otherwise we'll miss things along the way. We'll make careless mistakes, as the diagnostic term says, which I think is horrible. Because we'll miss things because we're so focused on whatever we've got in front of us. So I think if it's been helpful of reminding yourself of the four different things that motivate the ADHD brain. So the urgencies with something we touched upon already. So when we have a deadline, do things we procrastinate until the deadline. So the urgency that drives us into action.
00:18:42
Speaker
But interest is usually when we drop into a hyper focus. I'm interested in a topic, so then I want to read about it. Challenge when you can make it playful and fun. ah You know, challenge yourself to get this amount of work done in 10 minutes or wash up all your dishes in 17 minutes. And the last one is novelty, which is crucial to understanding why sometimes ADHDers get into trouble.
00:19:05
Speaker
The novelty isn't just about seeing the beauty in the world and enjoying traveling to fantastic scenery and taking away sort of the just a life enjoyment, but it can also be the thing that gets us into deep trouble, like leaving relationships before we should, quitting a job that we could have persisted at, leaving countries, or just impulsively burning your business down because it didn't go so well one week. like That bit of craving things to be different is also something I see cause a lot of problems for the women I support because they don't stay consistently persisting with something. They kind of go, oh, that didn't go well next. And that wanting to do the next thing because that gives more novelty, that gives more stimulation. That can also mean that you then crave that stimulation, that dopamine in unhealthy things.
00:19:55
Speaker
like overeating. We know that ADHD is highly correlated with binge eating disorder and bulimia. and So overeating, because you feel then a sense of stimulation, a sense of feeling alive, gambling, addictions overall, you know, alcohol, drug abuse, so sex. So there can be, you know, as a couples therapist as well, there can be issues with wanting to have an extramarital affair. There are lots of things like that because there's just There's no tolerance for boredom. We just crave stimulation and novelty. So when you know those things, you can work with yourself as the person you are with the tools you've got rather than and shaming yourself. You can then bring in healthy, helpful novelty and stimulation so that you don't go seeking dopamine in the unhealthy places.
00:20:43
Speaker
I like that. Can you give some examples? Because I think that's really helpful. So let's think of a really concrete one. I'm sure that anyone listening and maybe yourselves included would occasionally doom scroll. You scroll on your phone, don't really know where you've done, what you've been doing for the last half an hour and suddenly time has just passed.
00:21:00
Speaker
That's usually because our brain is craving some sort of stimulation and we can be too tired to initiate something else. And then you come out of that, you don't usually feel very good. So instead of doing that, so working with yourself, knowing what kind of things can lift your energy. So it's managing your energy. For me, music works really well. A lot of my clients have particular playlists that I go to for more dopamine, even if you went on to Spotify or Apple podcasts or anything.
00:21:26
Speaker
Apple music, there will be things where you can search for ADHD, upbeat music, et cetera. Certain types of rhythms and beats that can be really stimulating for our brains. Movement, always go to movement. So even if you're not hyperactive type of ADHD, you might have an internal restlessness instead that still you can't really think your way out. You mood need to move your way out of that.
00:21:49
Speaker
So when you're stuck in analysis paralysis, looking at all the accounts on Instagram or the people doing better than you, you can't sit there and like question those thoughts. You just need to move to make the thoughts subside, if that makes sense.
00:22:05
Speaker
That's so interesting because I just want to touch on that internal agitation, right? So so the different women not being sort of fidgety announcing our pants is that we might have a lot of catastrophizing. That's quite typical too, isn't it? this This doom and gloom and worst case scenarios. Our minds can go wild with the stories and ideas and So you would, you think you would see it in a similar way, but that we're looking for stimulation, that our mind is interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And that for women, kind of common telltale sign that comes along with that catastrophizing and over, folk like overthinking and being too stuck in your own mind is anxiety.
ADHD and Emotional Regulation
00:22:48
Speaker
So a physical manifestation of anxiety in your body perhaps or even panic attacks or sleeping problems or migraines, because your body is saying just stop for a moment but we can't. It's like the Ferrari metaphor that your you know your mind is racing really fast or your body is racing really fast or both. So again, very different presentations from person to person.
00:23:11
Speaker
Yes, and that's where some of the self criticism can just, you know, take off as well in that space. So it is really important to start to recognize those patterns. And I guess, so when we think about ADHD, I mean, there's been so much in the social media and so many people sort of saying, oh, it's just a fan and everybody's getting diagnosed now. And I think this idea that women have been incredibly good at masking and the I think, but it is important to recognize that, you know, we all are quite critical. We all can be sort of catastrophizers. We all can feel hyper-focused at times, but ADHD is, will really and impact our functioning.
00:23:53
Speaker
It will do, and I think one thing that's not very commonly talked about is rejection sensitivity. Thinking about rejection, sensitivity dysphoria, or RSD, which is very universal. So even though you might differ from your fellow radiation urine, how your brain is operating A lot of us experience that which means that we take it personally as someone says something neutral we will look for the negativity in it almost because we have a activity bias in our mind almost like the glass is kind of half empty and it's not your fault that your brain is wired that way so it's a bit more of an uphill struggle to come out of a meeting in a positive way.
00:24:32
Speaker
So that classic thing of you send your friend a message on WhatsApp or something, and you can see that they have read it. So you see the blue ticks, but there's no reply. They must hate me. Right. It's, I think it's one of the things that is really hard to be ignored for us though. So even if it's benign, like, even if you'd be like, ah everyone does that these days, nobody replies to text messages. The ADHD mind would be like,
00:24:55
Speaker
But if they loved me or if they liked me, they would. So we would find a reason to go, oh, but that's because they don't like me. because we have i mean june i mean This is general terms, but overall, people have so many experiences of being rejected, of being teased or bullied or seen as an outsider so that we have a super-scanner that looks for that in a very hyper-vigilant way. We're going to be on the lookout for anyone saying something negative because we've heard it all before.
00:25:23
Speaker
And even if we haven't had it all before, we say it to ourselves constantly. So even in, you know, in relationships where an ADHD is with a partner, they would often be reading their body language, their facial expressions, their tone of voice, very consciously to be aware of any slight or any perceivept perceived kind of rejection. They will be on the lookout for it. So that's why.
00:25:47
Speaker
women with ADHD can also be really good at reading facial expressions. Now it gets more complicated if you also have a autistic profile, which we know there's a huge overlap between the two. So again, there's that misconception that neurodivergent people or neurodivergent women can't ever read a facial expression.
00:26:06
Speaker
Sometimes they're very good at it because they've trained themselves their whole mind and whole lives to pick up any signs of threat or rejection in the mannerisms of another person. But they don't always get it right. They might jump to conclusion, catastrophize, like you said, or there must be that I'm horrible. So it's not a nice place to be. If you get stuck in those thoughts, you can kind of make sense why depression and anxiety is more likely in neurodivergent people.
00:26:35
Speaker
It seems like a lot of, a lot of what we've been talking about is sort of a very binary black and white kind of approach to the world. You know, you're either working like a demon or you know, you're sloughing, you know, as, as a way of even self care at that point. But you know, I'm either completely loved or I'm completely rejected. I'm in people who are stressed out.
00:27:01
Speaker
tend to think in very black and white binary terms, as we all can under the right circumstances. And you were describing earlier the 37-year-old woman who is like trying to juggle all these things, all these spinning plates. So just trying to de-stress a little bit could probably help open things up to see the possibilities somewhere at in between, this is really great and this is really awful.
00:27:28
Speaker
really difficult with us nuances though, because all and nothing think thinking is very common in perfectionism and also in ADHD, that kind of polarized thinking. And that can be very difficult to say, maybe I need to de-stress a bit because the prospect of slowing down, the prospect of taking a break might mean that I won't get started again. So not wanting to take a break from overworking isn't just about well i'm now being productive finally. It's also the fear that if i stop i won't get going again and then i'll have to start all over again with that long warm up like i said so. If you are someone who can just stop and start and get going and don't get sidetracked or distracted then you wouldn't mind having a five minute break to just stretch your legs or your colleague asking you question was in the middle of something.
00:28:12
Speaker
But when youre when you have ADHD, having that kind of interruption to your focus can be can sidetrack you for the rest of the day if you are not able to kind of find tools to come back into it again. Because you might have worked so hard to even get you into the place of focus that you can very easily come out of it again, and then the self-criticism cycle starts
ADHD in the Workplace
00:28:32
Speaker
again. so All of these things give massive implications for how people are treated in the workplace.
00:28:38
Speaker
sitting in open plan offices or being a senior but senior professional in a corporate workplace where you have 40 people constantly coming to knock on your door to interrupt you, you will never be productive. So understanding that of how our productivity differs.
00:28:54
Speaker
from neurodivergent to neurotypical people is crucial for having a workplace where we don't have people seriously going into burnout because then they take the work home with them. I didn't finish the stuff I was going to do today, so now I'm going to stay up till 2 AM, get it all done, then have a sleep deficit, and we know that sleep deprivation makes ADHD symptoms way worse.
00:29:14
Speaker
And then the next day they start and being even less able to focus on concentrate because executive functioning is impacted really negatively when you don't sleep. And I guess as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about the idea that ADHD, you know, that kind of how we need to rebrand ADHD, that it really isn't an attention deficit, but you know, in your conversation. It's an attention allocation deficit. Attention regulation problem is a lovely one that I like.
00:29:42
Speaker
or sometimes I tell parents it's an intention deficit disorder. Your child is not intending to do his homework. Yeah, he's not motivated. It's not interesting. listen's you know He's not going to get any satisfaction out of this.
00:29:58
Speaker
That's really sad because that means we had so many children growing up, like you mentioned those coming to 10, 11 or et cetera, who cannot utilize their potential. you know Very bright minds growing up who could know solve the energy crisis for us, who are just not able to do that because they're not harnessing their energy, harnessing that potential. My son being a great example of that, he is incredibly bright and he hates school.
00:30:23
Speaker
Because it's too boring. It's too slow. I have to sit all day long and I'm not motivated and I don't get to do all the extra work I want to do. I don't get to move into more advanced things. I have to do the basics. So he's not motivated. And that I see that so much. Challenges are threats.
00:30:41
Speaker
because they're going to expose me as really not that smart but that everybody's been telling me I am. But if it's difficult, it must mean I'm not smart. This is Carol Dweck's research into stories. Yeah.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah. ah I find that really fascinating when we think about ADHD as well, that how you think of your own identity, what you've been told. And I work with ah exceptionally bright people as well who've often hinged sort of their identity on being smart because that's the only thing they can kind of ride on to get through school. So they might've been you know achieving academically What are the cost of their own energy or not seeing friends as much because they were focusing on constantly studying so we know that's also compensatory strategy high levels of intelligence can also mask and hide the symptoms because you find out different ways to try to.
00:31:36
Speaker
Is it for yourself i sign has figured out that if you go stop to ask have a drink of water farmer often any action needs he gets to move. Is giving himself jobs in the classroom to give him the most movement in the day like handing out all the books everyone so.
00:31:52
Speaker
And that he was doing that before yeah anyone even noticed that we were doing this. So smart children and their smart adults can go undetected because they find all the compensatory strategies to still try to mask and fit in and hide the fact that they struggle so much underneath. and But then the the risk of that is that you have this but you develop this very critical narrative. If you get diagnosed and you build a story about yourself that is It makes everything worse. And I guess for for me in my mind, what's been really helpful in this conversation is starting to sort of disentangle anxiety from ADHD because there's so much about ADHD that looks like anxiety and the anxiety can kind of mask the ADHD in a way. And it's, I think it's important to be able to disentangle the two pieces that anxiety is inevitable if you have ADHD. Yeah.
00:32:46
Speaker
Well, they're both about attention. You know, they're both about attention allocation. If I'm anxious about, you know, if I'm a child and I'm sitting in the classroom worried about whether or not somebody's going to play with me at recess, I'm not allocating my attention toward the teacher. So, you know, they both come from the same parts of the brain.
00:33:07
Speaker
Absolutely. And allocating our attention to past failures or past mistakes or times when someone did have a go at us for something that's, that, you know, not being in the present moment is going to have a huge impact on that. Cause you're thinking about all the past failures, you're worrying about failing again in the future. And that recent piece of verse research saying that we're, you know, only in the present moment, 47% of the time, or wherever it was that Harvard university study.
00:33:34
Speaker
I'm sorry, can you say that again? I was not in the present moment. Were you distracted, Chris? Yeah. Just kidding. Yeah, I mean, it's 50-50 if you would have heard me, right? Exactly. so kind I wonder how high that would be for ADHD as though.
00:33:49
Speaker
Is it 47% of the time or is it 80% of the time that you're not in the present moment because you're somewhere else entirely? It's interesting, it's fascinating with our attention and it's not, like I said, not a deficit because we also know from the research around ADHD as being insane in the emergency services that we're really good at handling crisis and emergency in the moment.
00:34:11
Speaker
So when it matters, again, urgency, interest, challenge, novelty, new things happen, the lateral problem solving and thinking that ADHDers can have can bring huge asset to emergencies where everyone else is running running the other way, the ADHDer is running towards it.
00:34:30
Speaker
because they can think of it. It's almost like, I think of that as we can handle the complexity, but we can't handle the simplicity. I don't know what to you know make sure I've booked a dentist appointment for my son or et cetera, but I can write a whole book about couples' relationships.
ADHD Motivation and Movement
00:34:46
Speaker
That is fascinating, isn't it? but It's so true. I mean, the conversations I've had with clients is that, and that until you start to think about ADHD, it makes no sense.
00:34:58
Speaker
in your head. now who say so Why is it that you know in a crisis during sort of COVID, for example, they there was lots of things that you know individuals with ADHD could get done and work with an intense force, but then could organize the childcare or the children's party unless it was going to be the best party in the world.
00:35:20
Speaker
yes a single sort of entertainer, you know, confetti, whatever it was, then they could get it going. But if it's just your average party, then I just, I can't find myself. And yet I can do all these other incredible things. It doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't follow that anxious, you know, if it was just the fear of what are others are going to think about me, then I'd get more motivated. That's always the dilemma.
00:35:43
Speaker
with procrastination. I should be motivated because I'm going to get into trouble if I don't get this job done. And that's why you can differentiate it from anxiety because there isn't that. There is, of course, a fear, but the fear isn't motivating them to move until the end.
00:35:59
Speaker
It can be even more paralyzing, and this is what I mean about sort of using things that do help you raise your energy. Again, if you've been in stationary, sat at the computer and then your mind is going, I can't focus, then you always have to move.
00:36:15
Speaker
It's just, you cannot sit there for another hour and think that your focus is going to come. It it won't. So it's, yeah, the answer is always movement to pretty much any affliction. And ah that's, I've noticed a difference for myself personally, how much better I feel on the days when I've exercised, I do sort of heavy weightlifting, not like, you know, bodybuilding, but as in I lift, lift weights in exercise, do cardio. I do yoga because that's,
00:36:41
Speaker
Yoga is easier if way into meditation for me because there's still body movement. I can sort of be in a flow with it, but I'm still moving and it's finding like finding peace with that. I'm making peace with what works for you rather than thinking I should sit down and do 10 minutes.
00:36:57
Speaker
seated meditation every day because that's supposed to be good for me. There are many ways into mindfulness meditation that still works for the more hyperactive, restless mind that doesn't have to be you sitting there with eyes closed for 10 minutes. I personally love it, that too, but then I often have to layer it up with another, like almost like another layer of stimulation, like listening to a soundscape or having something like a scent around me, like having a few things that makes my mind go, whoa, this is really exciting.
00:37:26
Speaker
like a weighted blanket can feel sensory nice and anchoring me in the present moment. So there's lots of things we can do that just it doesn't have to look exactly the same as whatever one else does, but you can still practice things like meditation and mindfulness.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yes. Can I backtrack? I was thinking about this emotional overwhelm that individuals who present with ADHD can get really upset and really angry and really overwhelmed. you know Obviously, that rejection sensitivity is a part of it, so it can be around people, but it can be around things not going the right way, but it will be this very, you know, like a tsunami of emotion that they can't stop. It can be very raw and especially for children who have more immature frontal lobes as well. They're still growing and developing so they won't have the same stop button anyway. But the emotion regulation part of ADHD is, it's a funny one because it's been in the diagnostic criteria then taken out of the diagnostic criteria. And now people are lobbying for that needing definitely to be a crucial part.
00:38:31
Speaker
of understanding ADHD. So if you are someone who is a big feeler or you're highly sensitive or you just feel like you have your heart on your sleeve, that is quite common. And not ever again, we've said sort of the presentations vary so much, but some children are very explosive. I think Ross Green's work around the highly explosive child Kind of signals that I'm one of them. I'm sort of the, my, my emotional range is like Ariana Grande vocal range. It's, it's a lot of everything I can hit the highs and the lows. And some people are a bit more steady in the middle. And I have to think that as much as I find it hard with the emotional lows.
00:39:12
Speaker
or the frustration tolerance not being what it could be. It also means I hit the emotional highs, like the joy we can feel, that the fact that I literally and metaphorically can skip when I'm happy about something. And my husband, who is a little bit more steady, he wouldn't skip. So I feel like i you get the one with the other.
00:39:33
Speaker
Unfortunately, you get the peaks with the troughs, so knowing that about yourself, it doesn't mean you're better or worse. There are plenty of fantastic singers out there who have a limited vocal range and you still enjoy their music. So it's just self-awareness, understanding that I'm likely to be emotional here. So I give myself Little permission pieces around that so if something happens i know i'm gonna react strongly. You know if something triggers my rsd or if i get an email from someone that is ever since likely. Rude or critical which doesn't happen a lot thankfully but if i face a troll on on the internet know these things happen when you're slightly public profile.
00:40:15
Speaker
If that happens i just step away because i know that it will bring big feelings and then twelve hours twenty four hours later the big feelings will have subsided and i can come to clarity about what i want to do so the wisdom comes after that so.
00:40:30
Speaker
I love the wise mind from dbt dialectical behavior therapy, where you have an overlap of your sense and your sensibility, your kind of your logical side as well as your emotional side, they can meet in the middle and that can be hard for ADHD is.
Rejection Sensitivity and Emotional Management
00:40:45
Speaker
If we don't first regulate our emotions and allow them to be there first. So yeah, I'll hit some high notes and then I'll move on basically.
00:40:54
Speaker
That's wonderful. And I guess when you were saying about you know that rejection sensitivity being so strong, then that one has to be really sensitive to that too.
00:41:07
Speaker
that, you know, if you are going to be working in environments that are social, you know, if you are going to be connecting and having a busy social life or you want to have great friendships and that is, you know, a vulnerability that you have to just be born for love and treat yourself very kindly and and know what's happening. I think awareness is so powerful if like Dan Siegel says, you know, name it to tame it.
00:41:35
Speaker
Give it a name. And even that rejection sensitivity, I hadn't thought of it before like that. It's really useful to know that's what's happening. I'm particularly sensitive to the possibility of rejection. And so I'll look for it and I'll find it. and And in acceptance and commitment therapy, we would talk about how, you know, these things are directly linked to our values. I mean, I'm sensitive to rejection because I value connection. yeah so like care We care where we are. Right. yeah Exactly.
00:42:05
Speaker
so that there's It's a clue that ah something that matters deeply to me, but it also makes us have a more of a nuanced kind of stepping away one layer from it in terms of the act terms of noticing. You know, I'm noticing that I'm having some RSD triggered by this text and then I can start a conversation with my husband then. He'd say, Oh, what's up? Oh, actually, I think it's just a bit of RSD being triggered. And I can notice that that's very different to, or you wouldn't believe what this person said in the text message.
00:42:34
Speaker
I'm already having a bit of distance between me and the thoughts and the feelings by noticing them and saying, this is what I think is happening. It's not my fault. I'm not going to shame myself for it. I'm just going to give myself a bit of space then. And then knowing that you need to go easy on yourself. It becomes one of those. Oh yeah, one of those. And even just yeah abbreviating to RSD as a way of kind of getting a little distance from that, a little decentering.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's just one of those things that, or one of those days that we can obviously see in women who have more or less ADHD symptoms, depending on where they are in their cycle. So in the monthly cycle. So knowing that as well, as always the PMT week, that's where more demons come in.
Hormonal Influence on ADHD Symptoms
00:43:16
Speaker
Yes. Cause one of the questions that people have asked me is around perimenopause and menopause and how that also makes some of the ADHD symptoms worse.
00:43:25
Speaker
And to be aware of that, I guess, is that hormonal influence on our cognitive functioning and our emotional regulation as a result. How could it not? How could it not? It makes sense. How could it not? And I think that's sort of ending our chat with a lovely sort of compassionate thing of how can I be helpful rather than harmful to myself? If I am a pair of men opposed to women with senior role, a couple of kids, and they're driving me up the wall, how can I be helpful rather than harmful to myself? And that might give you some ideas of setting up some better systems, asking for some more support and developing some self-compassion for yourself.
00:44:02
Speaker
Absolutely. You don't have to be everything for everybody, which is what we've often had to be as women. Yeah. It's a nice way to get the patriarchy in there again. And let me just, on behalf of the patriarchy, let me offer my sincere apologies. Accepted. It's okay. We need male allies, so we need men to enter the conversations with us and help us understand the the lack of equity and then we can continue to work towards equity.
00:44:31
Speaker
That's right. Yes. This has been wonderful. My goodness. I must admit, I have got more questions, but I'm going to hold them. I'm going to restrain them. Well, you can always come over to my website and have a chat with me. And this is what I talk about on my own podcast constantly. So I would love to have a conversation with the other side of having you two over on my podcast one day. That'd be fabulous. We'd love to join you there. We'd be honored.
00:44:58
Speaker
Absolutely. it It's just so important and I think it's so empowering. I'm so excited when I'm so excited when I heard, and I think of that description of yours, happiness with a skip. I totally know what that means. I get very excited about that. And when I want extra, everything is a little bit extra. You're absolutely right. A little bit plus as they would say here. um And this ADHD with perfectionism is just is such a powerful insight for me. yeah And it's helped me support my clients much better and really give them a, that compassionate lens that they really needed to hear. And it's like magic. It really is. So I, we haven't touched on, you know, diagnosing, et cetera, but I think reading about ADHD, seeing if you recognize some of these symptoms can be incredibly empowering.
Therapeutic Insights on ADHD
00:45:52
Speaker
It can be. And self-identification is also really valid. Sometimes people choose to come into my world and work with me therapeutically or join my group coaching program. And then further down the line, go through the formal diagnosis. Some people choose to do the diagnosis first because the way I do the assessment is therapeutic in itself as well. It's not just here's an hour where you tick through a few questions and tick boxes. It's in itself an exploratory journey where you come to terms with yourself and make space for that grief and relief that comes post-diagnosis. Oh, it's not my fault. And oh my goodness, what could life have been like had I known about this 40 years ago?
00:46:30
Speaker
So it's a lot, it cracks your world wide open. But this is where I'm just thought about when you said it, Emma, the combination between ADHD and perfectionism and the the happiness with the skip, that perfectionism can really rob you from the joy that you could hit more with your ADHD, that some of the extras that you don't allow yourself because that's a bit weird or that you don't fit in and people what what are people going to think? So the self-regulatory aspects of perfectionism can really poo on your pee on your parade, if you may.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah. It's a very good point, actually. I hadn't thought about it either. And you're absolutely right. Like it just constrains you. And I know Jennifer Kemp, who's on our podcast, talked about you know how liberated she felt when, you know, the more and more authentic she's been able to become.
00:47:16
Speaker
I love her and I love her work and I saw her at a conference recently. So she's, there's a reason, she's like the Australian Michaela. She does what she does in on the other side of the world and occasionally we meet up. So she's lovely. For anyone who wants to do more work around this, I haven't yet written a book on ADHD, so I would encourage anyone to go and check out Jennifer's because it's great.
00:47:36
Speaker
Her work, her workbook. Yeah. It's really interesting. Then you're a divergence workbook for but developing self-compassion. So it's a great resource, but if you want to just listen more and not everyone can pick up a book, then come along to the Pause Purpose Play Podcast.
Engaging with the Podcast Community
00:47:50
Speaker
And hopefully Emma and Chris will join me in the future. Hey, how exciting. Well that's giving me a little skip internally. Wonderful. road Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. And I know listeners are going to be fine. We'll find it very helpful and informative. and Thank you. Thank you. That's the whole point. This is why I do these things is just to get more people to realize it's not your fault. You're doing the best you can with what you've got. And there are also things you can
00:48:19
Speaker
shape and mould and improve is not the end of your life. If you get a diagnosis, it's just the beginning of it. That's when you can really start to live life a little bit more extra. So thank you so much for inviting me.
00:48:32
Speaker
Thank you. thanks so much for tuning into the life's dirty little secrets podcast if you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes you can email us at life'surdy little secrets podcast at gmail dot com be sure to follow us on instagram at life's dirty little secrets or on facebook at life's dirty little secrets podcast We invite you to follow, rate and review us on wherever you listen to this podcast. It is the best way to get our podcast out in front of new listeners. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with more. See you then.