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Secret #52: Toxic Striving with Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond
74 Plays3 days ago
Are you caught in the never-ending race for perfection, feeling burned out by hustle culture and the constant pressure to optimize every corner of your life? In this eye-opening episode, we reveal the truth about toxic striving, uncovering why it’s so hard to break free from relentless self-improvement, comparison traps on social media, and the modern epidemic of never feeling “good enough.”
Clinical psychologist and intuitive eating counselor Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond joins hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry to unpack the roots of toxic striving, from childhood messaging to societal expectations—and why “striving” can silently morph into anxiety, perfectionism, and even disconnection from what really matters. Discover how to spot the warning signs when high standards turn toxic, and learn science-backed strategies to move from rigid self-criticism to a more compassionate, values-driven life.
Whether you’re a high achiever, a parent worried about doing everything “right,” or just exhausted from trying to keep up, this episode offers practical tips and much-needed validation. Tune in for real-world stories, mindset shifts, and actionable advice on living well—without letting the pursuit of success run your life.
Highlights:
- Toxic striving and perfectionist culture
- Social media and hustle culture pressures
- Rule-based versus values-based living
- Impact of societal expectations on self-worth
- Embracing imperfection and psychological flexibility
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Transcript
The Illusion of Perfection
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
00:00:26
Speaker
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly. In the service of being deeply human.
Introduction to Life's Dirty Little Secrets
00:00:36
Speaker
This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington. And I'm Chris McCurry.
Guest Spotlight: Dr. Paula Friedman-Diamond
00:00:48
Speaker
And today we are privileged to have with us as our guest, Dr. Paula Friedman-Diamond.
00:00:55
Speaker
She's a licensed clinical psychologist, certified intuitive eating counselor, and the owner and clinical director of Humankind Psychological Services. Great name.
00:01:06
Speaker
ah where she specializes in treating anxiety, perfectionism, and eating
The Burden of Hustle Culture
00:01:10
Speaker
disorders. And she is the author of the recently published Toxic Striving, Why Hustle and Wellness Culture Are Leaving Us Anxious, Stressed, and Burned Out, and How to Break Free.
00:01:21
Speaker
And that's from New Harbinger Publications, and we'll have a link to that and other resources in our show notes. So welcome, Paula. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me.
00:01:32
Speaker
So, Oxfix Striving, can you help design that a little bit? And how does that present itself? Yeah, I guess I had the experience first at a personal level, then at a professional level, then started a book about it, and then kind of came up with the language so to explain the the ah experience. But basically what I noticed is that there's this, I guess, personality style that...
00:02:01
Speaker
It's quite common where someone maybe gravitates toward high achieving, wants very much to like do a good job at everything they do. Maybe this sort of like tendency towards perfectionism. And it can show up in in any number of ways, but often it kind of crosses the line from...
00:02:23
Speaker
i'm I'm striving towards goals that are important to me. I'm striving towards things because I'm proud of myself when I accomplish them or it enhances my life when I accomplish them into if I'm not striving for something, if I'm not achieving all the time, if I'm not maximizing my productivity in every single moment that I'm alive, I am failure.
Toxic Striving and Its Consequences
00:02:43
Speaker
I'm not worthy of of love or belonging or any of the rewarding things in life.
00:02:48
Speaker
And I work primarily with anxiety, perfectionism, and eating disorders. And on the surface, you might think of those as kind of, I guess, separate buckets of diagnostic. I mean, they are separate diagnostic criteria and symptoms and presentations. But what I've found is that that personality is often kind of a through line, regardless of how someone's tendency towards this constant chasing of the next accolade or chasing of the next goal and reward, regardless of how it manifests, whether it's through i have to have this perfectly curated home that's decorated in a way that looks great on Instagram or dress myself a certain way or have a certain body and aesthetic have a certain job title or certain salary or be a certain type of parent, regardless of how it shows up, it
00:03:42
Speaker
often the the the process behind it is often the same and it it can be toxic. It can cause a lot of suffering. So it's that sounds like trying to fill some sort of void or you know escape from boredom. I mean, I guess there could be many different manifestations of it.
00:03:58
Speaker
Right. And fill a void is a good way of putting it because it it and it it never is quite satisfied. yeah There's sort of this like internal pressure and external pressure that come together so make you feel like no matter what you do, you're never really worthy or you never really deserve more than a moment's rest or a moment's recognition or validation of what it is you worked so hard for before it's like, all right, well, what's next?
00:04:23
Speaker
Or that like discredits you after you've already done it. So as soon as you achieve something, there's maybe that voice that in your head that's like, well, it wasn't really that hard. People do that all the time. You're not really that special. So, you know, now what are you going to do?
00:04:38
Speaker
That sounds like stuff maybe we hear when we're young. yeah Exactly. Like, I think that's true a lot of the time that it can be kind of an internalized ah messaging from maybe ah critical parent or or teacher or coach or even maybe if it wasn't directed at you, but you saw someone else get treated that way. That can often be where it comes from.
The Role of Social Media in Striving
00:05:01
Speaker
So you you mentioned Instagram. I mean, there's certainly been a lot of debate of late about social media and to what extent it's nurturing, you know, unhappiness.
00:05:13
Speaker
I'm sure that's exacerbated this whole issue of toxic striving, but has toxic striving always been around? I mean, is this something that Emma and I were talking before we started about, you know, my mother...
00:05:25
Speaker
In the 50s and 60s, schoolteacher raising six kids, I wonder if she even paused to think about her striving. and That's an interesting question. i i i think maybe in some regard it's always been around that that we've wanted to...
00:05:43
Speaker
be accepted socially and that there have been standards set forth by whatever the dominant culture is. But i I feel like to bring back to social media, there there's a lot more, I guess, it's a lot more common now to to work like self-development as a thing. Right. And and that you have to always be bettering yourself in some way. And I think of it. I mean, I im think my mind goes to parenting now because I'm I'm the mother of a newborn baby. So I'm going through that for the first time myself. And there's a lot of pressure in that.
00:06:17
Speaker
world to use a certain parenting philosophy. and And if you're not really careful, you're going to repeat the mistakes of the previous generations and then you're going to screw up your kid and it'll be all your fault that they weren't talking to you. And, you know, well there's a lot of that kind of thing out there, too.
00:06:32
Speaker
ah It's all it's all true.
Tools for Managing Anxiety in Children
00:06:34
Speaker
It's all true. Well, especially psychologists, you know, our kids kids are are usually the ones with all the issues. But no, I i mean, in i in any aspect of life, I feel like we've become maybe more, i don't know if it's like more navel-gazy, but there is a lot more, and I think social media plays a role in this, of having to maybe like show the world how you're doing in every aspect of your life and not just live your life for yourself and the privacy of of your home or your community, but it's like on display for everyone to either see what a great example you are or pick you apart.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, everything everything's got to be up on Pinterest for people to admire. So yeah that's hard to escape,
00:07:19
Speaker
Hello listeners, I'm Emma. And I'm Chris. And we are so excited to share with you our latest workbook, Just In Case Sits With Anxiety, which was published by Jessica Kingsley.
00:07:32
Speaker
The workbook takes us on a journey with Justin, who's about to have his very first babysitting job. He's excited, but quickly gets hit with a wave of what ifs. What if something goes wrong?
00:07:43
Speaker
Or what if he's not good enough? In the workbook, Justin overcomes the inevitable challenges of babysitting two toddlers whilst learning ideas and tools to help him understand his feelings and face those fears whilst learning to do what's most important to him, being a kind and resourceful kid.
00:08:02
Speaker
Based on acceptance and commitment therapy, it's packed with activities for kids plus helpful tips for parents. Order now on Amazon to find out how Justin learns to tackle his worries and move forward with courage.
00:08:19
Speaker
It is. It's hard to escape.
Societal Pressures and Multitasking
00:08:21
Speaker
It's this messaging that's always coming in I do think that this did that that hustle culture and wellness culture, the two the two facets of our are our dominant culture that i explored in my book, are...
00:08:35
Speaker
They're not newer necessarily. I mean, i there's always, not always, but for for many decades, there's been different iterations in our society of what's considered healthy and what practices you should be engaging in in order to be an acceptable human.
00:08:52
Speaker
But they've they've they've they've morphed and they've transformed over time and there are different trends and I think maybe part of like women entering the workforce more and and people being both doing kind of everything, wearing every hat, being professionals and having a family and having a social circle and having all of these different areas of life.
00:09:13
Speaker
There's also like ah this just happened the other day. I was out with my husband up yeah in this kind of trendy part of town here in Chicago and Everyone there, my husband turns to me and says, everyone in this room looks like at some point they've made a ah video on social media about their five to nine before their nine to five.
00:09:33
Speaker
Like everyone here is like dressed in this perfectly fashionable way and and just kind of looks like they wake up at 5 a.m. m and they drink their apple cider vinegar and they do all that the the wellness things they're supposed to do before they go crush it at their job or they never leave an email unread. And I think that that crusher is maybe.
00:09:54
Speaker
Somewhat newer and and maybe kind of a generally rational phenomenon that that affects, I mean, maybe everyone, but I see it a lot in my practice with millennials and people who maybe grew up at the turn of.
00:10:08
Speaker
the the recession in 2008 and where they were like kind of faced with no matter what I do, I'm going to have to hustle extra hard and get a side gig in order to make ends meet.
00:10:19
Speaker
So, yeah, I don't know. I haven't. This is an interesting conversation to kind of speculate on where and how some of these cultural expectations developed. We had ah a great conversation with a guest called Ross White, and he has a book called The Tree That Bends.
00:10:37
Speaker
And he talked about, so he talks about working with high achievers as well and the striving. He calls it the relentless, and he talks about how we need to relent more.
00:10:49
Speaker
And sort of looking at your book and conversations that you've been having, it really feels like Anything we touch at the moment, we seem to put under this umbrella of striving.
00:11:01
Speaker
i e it And we've had a conversation with Debbie Sorensen on parenting, you know, the parent burnout. Like everything we touch becomes outcome driven and performance related. And I've had many conversations with my parents where I've asked them if they ever questioned their parenting.
00:11:18
Speaker
And they'll look at me like I have two heads. Like that wasn't the thing that anybody did. there were no books. There was nothing. It just wasn't part of the narrative.
Achievement vs. Personal Qualities
00:11:28
Speaker
Whilst I think nowadays...
00:11:32
Speaker
Everything we do is under scrutiny, be it like you were talking about work and health, but also parenting, how we look after our parents, not just how we parent, but how we look after our parents, how we how we do anything seems to be under this gaze of, is it good enough?
00:11:49
Speaker
And it's almost like this this machine has been plugged in and it just applies to everything. And how do stop that?
00:12:00
Speaker
Stop prospering. White talks about how do we start to relent more because it really does feel quite systemic and and I even hear it with my kids. School is much more demanding than it was when I was a kid.
00:12:14
Speaker
The tuition, i think it's the same there. think it's the same everywhere now that you're not meant to just hang out and play. What are you using your time for? Because you're on this Yeah, mission, right?
00:12:28
Speaker
And I don't know if it's because there are so many of us and life has become more competitive than it was when um my parents were parents. But there's definitely been a shift in terms of the way we value ourselves much more on what we do than who we are.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's so true. And I and and i also noticed this idea that there's a there are ways to optimize every aspect of your functioning. Like you said, everything we touch can turn into this, like...
00:13:03
Speaker
this thing we have to, this something we have to crack the code on how to do perfectly. You can't just do it for the sake of doing it or kind of give it your best shot and say, all right, that's what I got. you have to look for the formula. And there's usually someone out there who can sell you a formula, who who's happy to tell you that they have the answers to these things. And then I think we fall into the trap of looking to the outside world for all of this guidance on how How do I make sure that I get eight hours of sleep? And i'm yeah even that is so people optimizing their sleep, optimizing.
00:13:38
Speaker
ah Even rest has to have some sort of intentional approach to making it perfect, which the i mean, the irony. yeah I mean, there are 66,000 parenting books out there.
00:13:51
Speaker
Wow. many of Many of them contradicting each other. i My mother had Benjamin Spock, and that was it. And she said the most useful thing she got out of that book was when it said, your child can reach farther than you think they can.
00:14:08
Speaker
i like that.
Navigating Parenting and Control Issues
00:14:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that speaks to how there was a time where where people trusted themselves a little bit more or or trusted that their children and their loved ones could handle life's hardships. And we didn't have to go do every tiny little thing that like that not every tiny little thing we did was going to have this like lasting.
00:14:33
Speaker
monumental, horrible impact on our future. And I don't know. I mean, I think we've we've progressed in some ways, too. I think it's useful to to self-reflect and to ask yourself, are there things I could be maybe doing better, more effectively? Is the way that I'm approaching XYZ working for me? Or can I learn something from someone who's done it well or read a book or It's not to say like, you not to seek any sort of self-improvement, but yeah, I think we do cross the line quite easily into, i know nothing. I need to like find the perfect hack to make sure that I can do this right at every turn.
00:15:14
Speaker
Yeah. as As if, as if we know. Right. As if that's possible. Yeah. Well, and yeah but there are there are too many variables. I mean, we we think our parenting is the the only thing that's going to bend the arc of our child's development when so many other things will, particularly as they get older.
00:15:35
Speaker
Well, and I think some of it is that when it comes to the toxic striving, at least, ah a combination of nature and nurture. i i think a lot about how did I get this way?
00:15:46
Speaker
but Like, how how did I become ah so hard on myself as a child about everything I did? every And I can... I have some working hypotheses about some of the people pleasing tendencies I developed and why it was hard for me to ever tolerate someone being upset with me and that sort of thing.
00:16:06
Speaker
But in terms of achievement, getting straight A's or getting certain grades and all of that, kind of put that on myself. Like my my parents really were not...
00:16:18
Speaker
They were they were proud of me if I got a ah good grade in school, but but they never like it wasn't this expectation that was explicitly stated or anything like that. And I think that I maybe am someone who likes control more than the average person. I think everyone likes control in some regard, but.
00:16:36
Speaker
And you think some of us have a harder time loosening up around it. and And that is where you see people who struggle with anxiety and perfectionism and maybe eating disorders or body image struggles or things that involve seeking control over our internal experiences and seeking control over things that maybe we don't have that much control over.
00:16:59
Speaker
that's That's a hard thing to let go of Oh, yeah. Really? I've been working on it for a long time.
Finding Balance in Striving
00:17:06
Speaker
I was just wondering, is it useful then to think about when, because you also talk about this in the book, that striving in and of itself isn't the problem.
00:17:16
Speaker
Like we can all want to do a good job. and we can all And when I've worked with people who have very high standards, the thought of lowering standards is absolutely non-acceptable. So when we think about how do we find that place?
00:17:33
Speaker
ah You talked about rules. I love the piece on rules. I really think that that's really useful to touch on for our listeners. But how do we know when striving gets out of hand? Because wanting to do a good job as a parent is a good thing.
00:17:47
Speaker
Or wanting to be healthy is a good thing. Or do well at work. Of course. I think there's a a variety of ways you can look at it. I i think like Ross White talking about just not approaching in the most rigid, like loosening up and not being quite so relentless, I think is is a useful starting point, figuring out.
00:18:09
Speaker
What is important to you about reaching these standards and and what meaning have you attached to it? What have you decided it means about you? It reached this standard at all times.
00:18:20
Speaker
Or if you don't, what what does that mean about you? And i find unpacking values is a really useful way of like kind of loosening someone up around it is like, what do you truly care about deep down as a person?
00:18:36
Speaker
What do you want to be remembered for at the end of your life? That sort of thing can help bring you back to earth a little bit, because a lot of times we're chasing things either either we're chasing things in a way that doesn't align with our values or we're chasing things that and that aren't.
00:18:55
Speaker
important to us in the first place. Like the the goal itself is maybe something that we think we're supposed to go after, like perhaps a certain aesthetic or body size or a certain way of of eating or a certain job title or something like that. It might not really resonate with you as a thing that's going to enhance your life in any meaningful way, but yet you're spending a lot of energy and resources on it.
00:19:24
Speaker
So sometimes even make it like just questioning what it is that you're striving for can can clue you in a little bit more. And is this even a worthwhile pursuit for me?
00:19:38
Speaker
And i think sometimes getting too attached to anything, even it is something that's a worthwhile pursuit for you, right, can be really dangerous. Because again, what if what if it goes away or what if you don't get there ever?
00:19:50
Speaker
Will you still have lived a life worth living? So sometimes you have to expand your your sense of identity to to go beyond that one thing, if that makes sense.
00:20:03
Speaker
Sure. And you've talked about how rules and and the shoulds in one's life, that one of one of the warning signs is if if your self is if your self-worth is suffering.
00:20:15
Speaker
Can you tell me, say more about that? how Yeah, I think, I guess to go back to how you how do you pursue something in a way that isn't toxic? Yeah. I think that's a big piece of it Recognizing the way that you're approaching it. Is it based on rules, based on rigidity, or is it rooted in compassion?
00:20:35
Speaker
Because you can encourage yourself to move towards maybe a behavior change or move towards something that matters to you without having to then, yeah, like like without beating yourself up if it doesn't go as planned or if you miss a day ah on your new habit or whatever it is.
00:20:52
Speaker
So i i like to encourage people to look at the language that therere their inner voice using with them. Is it command language? I should, i have to, I need to, ah can't.
00:21:06
Speaker
That's usually a red flag that you're dealing with. one of those rules and how can you, i guess, kind of edit the way that you speak to yourself or at least recognize that that's just one voice and that's that inner critic voice rather than the the be all end all.
00:21:23
Speaker
Truth with a capital T that's guiding you. And yeah, and notice how do you feel about yourself when you listen to those types of ah phrases versus when you maybe encourage yourself in a different way or speak to yourself in a different way or look at the situation with a little bit more...
00:21:42
Speaker
flexibility and openness to being a human being who is not perfect and who does have days where your energy just naturally ebbs and flows. I think that's something we find hard to accept maybe because of like ah advent of technology and everything seems like it can be hacked and and programmed. I almost think we've started to view ourselves as computers or or robots that if I just program myself correctly, at every moment of the day, I'll be i'll be up optimized and able to focus on my emails and, you know,
00:22:15
Speaker
make sure that every workout I do is the best workout I've ever had. And like there the if if I'm waking up during the night, it must be because i I didn't go to bed at the perfect time or drink the right amount of water.
00:22:28
Speaker
Like there's just so much counting and tracking and measuring that we're kind of, I guess, often led to believe if if we just find the right way to track it all and and to program ourselves that we are going to have those natural ebbs and flows that come with being
Accepting Imperfections and Change
00:22:43
Speaker
alive. But if if we can remind ourselves We're human and attention goes through natural ups and downs throughout the day or throughout different times in your life. And energy goes through different ups and downs throughout the day and the week and your life. And that that your priorities are going to shift at different phases of your life. If we can remember that, I think it can go a long way in introducing that flexibility to let ourselves not be these like perfectly optimized robots, I guess.
00:23:14
Speaker
What do you think? So you're talking about when that stuff shows up in your head to sort of hold it lightly. Exactly. Yeah. So like some cognitive diffusion can be really useful.
00:23:25
Speaker
They're recognizing this is just a thought. This is just words in my brain. it doesn't have to be this mandate that I follow. and And what am I afraid of happening if I don't follow it?
00:23:37
Speaker
I think that could be a useful question, too. right in In ACT, we have a as you know, we have a great metaphor about passengers on the bus. yeah And we're driving our bus, but a lot of the passengers have some some things to say about our driving. And some of that might be good information and some of that might not be.
00:23:58
Speaker
And so being able to hold that lightly is important. Right. To take it with curiosity. Is there something useful in this message? And maybe there is. And it could be framed in a different way that's kinder.
00:24:10
Speaker
Or maybe there really isn't. And it's just kind of nonsense that I've been fed from society that that I've internalized and that I've come to cling to as this ticket to belongingness that really just isn't true.
00:24:27
Speaker
yeah or or Or there's a connection between that thought and some value that we have. yeah Although that thought is coming to us and in a way that's perhaps a bit harsh or rigid, but it's linked to something that we we genuinely care about.
00:24:43
Speaker
I think that's a good point too, that that sometimes the messenger or the the delivery style is cruel, but but the underlying message, the intention of it is maybe values driven. And so then can you kind of, how do you like decode it a little bit more?
00:25:01
Speaker
Reframe it. Absolutely. And I guess the the difference between it being values driven versus role based, right? If I have a role, i have to get healthy no matter what.
00:25:14
Speaker
Because I want to be a strong grandmother. And that starts now with what I eat, how I move my body, how I sleep. That being a healthy grandmother could be part of my value around caring for those I love.
00:25:31
Speaker
I guess where it changes, so it can look like it's values driven because it looks like it's moving us in that direction. But the difference with the rule is the inflexibility and the rigidity around it.
00:25:43
Speaker
Like I have to do this no matter what.
Subjectivity of Health and Values
00:25:46
Speaker
Like I have to do my whatever it is, take my green juice or my, you know, eight hours sleep. And then the consequence when we don't follow that rule is this sort of distress and disappointment.
00:26:00
Speaker
And the beauty of having it more values guided is that we can be more flexible. Maybe we didn't get the juice in and because we s swept in or whatever it might be.
00:26:11
Speaker
and we worked on our well-being by sleeping in, less is getting up early and having our juice, that there's a little more softness in how we treat ourselves. I think that's, for me, is useful.
00:26:23
Speaker
i I think that's a beautiful way of of of looking at it too, is softness and and maybe like zooming out to recognize that values themselves are subjective. So what does health mean to you? It's got a multifaceted, there's so many layers to health and to your definition of health that can also be different at different moments in time. So yeah.
00:26:48
Speaker
There's not one universally correct way to honor your health or to pursue health. So if you're doing it in this rigid way and it's creating some suffering or it's it's creating some, youre you're really like stuck in this like kind of critical loop where it's never good enough.
00:27:07
Speaker
How can you zoom out and and look at the thing that you're pursuing in a different light and and think about if maybe Is it even healthy to pursue health in a way that's causing you stress? Because that affects your health, too.
00:27:21
Speaker
So, yeah, the irony. Yeah. And the idea that you have full full control over these things, too. Because you can do things to maybe pursue pursue health or or that that align with your definition of health. And you still might have outcomes that you don't want.
00:27:41
Speaker
You still might get sick. You still might age. You will all age. So there's no controlling that. Yeah.
Embracing Life's Unpredictability
00:27:49
Speaker
I'm doing my best. um but Oh, yeah, I know. I've lost a couple of friends to illnesses that that they never saw coming. Healthy individuals doing everything right.
00:28:00
Speaker
and But, you know, I think that that kind of gets us into what you've said, Paula, about making room for context. the Because some days you're just not going to get the eight hours of sleep for a variety of reasons.
00:28:14
Speaker
Some days as a parent, we all just got back from a vacation. Our flight was two hours late arriving. We're just not going to bother with like brushing our teeth tonight. And we're all just all going to go to bed on our clothes and not worry about like pajamas and the whole thing. I'll be each of a story, but it's going to be one story and we're all going to bed and sleep.
00:28:33
Speaker
Because we're all tired or we're all set or whatever it may be. so being able to adjust to that, can you can you say a little bit more about that in terms of your work with some of these nice driving people?
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think it it goes back to this idea that if I'm doing things right, if I've found the right hack or or formula or programming, I suppose, I will never have a day where I have to deviate from those things.
00:29:00
Speaker
And to your point, it's all... our context is always changing and there are times where you're not going to be able to, or where, where it might cause more harm than good to pursue the thing that you deemed important in that, in that time in your life, maybe accept that. I mean, I just, again, what I know I'm coming back to having a baby, cause again, it's like the center of my life right now, but It did be.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose that's true. who I'm like, right I don't need to go with it. Disclaimer there. But i I got really caught up in like the this the sleep thing, like trying to make sure, how do I make sure...
00:29:43
Speaker
that I'm not too sleep deprived and that my baby starts sleeping more and trying to control what she's doing and when she's napping. And I mean, she was too little for any of that. Like, and, ah and and getting really, i mean, I was, i was getting very anxious when night would approach of like, how much sleep am I going to get tonight?
00:30:03
Speaker
And to, to just shift to this mindset of this is a chapter in my life where I'm just going to be tired. And I'm just probably not going to get the best quality sleep and the number of hours that I typically need to to so feel rested. And I'm just not going to be rested for this chapter. And it's a chapter of my life.
00:30:23
Speaker
The world will still turn. and and like being able to take that extra layer off of it makes a huge difference, I think, even if the experience itself is still unpleasant.
00:30:36
Speaker
being able to not add this pressure of like, how do I fix it? If it's not going the way I want it to, it must be because I'm doing something wrong or I haven't found the right solution. i think that practice, I mean, that comes back to like practicing acceptance really goes a long way in some of these things. So when I'm working with someone who is really hard on themselves over whatever it might be, maybe I'm just not as coherent as I want to be at work today. Maybe I just not every time I get up to do a presentation is a time that I sound super eloquent and find all of the right words effortlessly and, and that's okay. Like I can, I don't have to like that. I can, I can find that that's kind of an icky feeling inside when I, when I don't get up there and feel like I totally crushed it, but I can survive that feeling. So also building a lot of distress tolerance and being able to cope with the discomfort that comes with,
00:31:34
Speaker
Being imperfect, basically. Yeah. yeah And feeling imperfect, right? Feeling some of those feelings like tiredness or whatever it might be physically happening, pain, discomfort.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. it is It is hard. I think we, another conversation we had with Jill Studdart, and she said, it really is a muscle getting comfortable being uncomfortable.
00:31:58
Speaker
And it's a muscle we need to keep working at. And some of us have this really small muscle. and And she said, Yeah. And it kind of sounds like that's what you're you're talking to that we need to keep. And she talks about asking her clients to regularly put themselves in situations where they just feel uncomfortable because it's something that takes practice.
00:32:22
Speaker
and And because life is unpredictable and things happen which you can't control, we get better at surfing those waves and making room for the tiredness and making room for the thoughts that they don't like me or they think that I'm an idiot, whatever it might be that is showing up for you. I do think it takes practice.
00:32:42
Speaker
I think so too. And I think it can get a little bit, maybe not easier, but more accessible with with practice too, that that tolerance. And and it comes back to like what you resist persists, which I know in the act world, we're all really well versed in this idea that like the more you don't want to have that experience, the more that experience kind of controls you and takes over your life. So the more afraid I am that,
00:33:08
Speaker
making a mistake or stumbling on my words or not being the perfect parent or not eating the way I think I'm supposed to eat or whatever it might be, the more that consumes you, the more that takes up your your inner resources and the bigger of a deal it feels if you have those natural ebbs and flows.
00:33:26
Speaker
But if you can kind of build the tolerance and the acceptance of that experience that you don't enjoy necessarily, but but that is part of being alive, it makes it a little bit easier to manage because it's inevitable that you're going to.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a tricky balance. It's not that we don't have standards and we don't have things that were. striving toward or outcomes that that we'd like to see, but it's it's it's holding it lightly and and also paying attention to the feedback that the world was giving us.
00:33:59
Speaker
Noticing did my engaging, and when I think of tolerance, I think of An engineering definition of the optimal distance between two moving parts. And and in that so I think of tolerance. When do we lean in and when do we hang back?
00:34:13
Speaker
Particularly in parenting, when do I lean in and with my child? When do I lean back? And a lot of my most egregious parenting mistakes have been when I leaned in, when I should have leaned back, and leaned back when I should have leaned in.
00:34:25
Speaker
So, but but being getting a sense of that is, how did that work? Okay, i can I can remember that next time this situation comes up. So it's not just a free-for-all, but it's paying attention to the contingencies.
00:34:39
Speaker
And I think what you're mentioning is taking a curious approach to it versus a critical approach.
The Importance of Authentic Connections
00:34:45
Speaker
Exactly. Oh, my God, I screwed up. I'm the worst. I'm terrible. And I'm going to beat myself up over it versus, oh, OK, that didn't go how I hoped. What what was going on? How can I maybe learn from this and do it differently in the future?
00:34:59
Speaker
it's a lot more effective, I think, than than the beating up approach. that You can't really shame yourself into growth. At least in my experience, though. I've tried. Yeah, I think we've all tried.
00:35:13
Speaker
And also, I liked what you were saying, too, about about like feedback from the outside world, because a lot of times with my clients, particularly who have these these high standards for themselves, that the things that...
00:35:26
Speaker
they're beating themselves up over over are not really things that like if if someone that they love didn't, you know, do an amazing job on their work presentation or whatever, like you'd still love them. Like the the things that make us feel connected to those around us are often not the things that we're putting pressure on ourselves to strive for.
00:35:48
Speaker
And if you are, then might maybe it's a chance to either set some boundaries in that relationship or reevaluate your closeness with someone. If if the only reason that they white you in their life is because you look a certain way or because you're like working out every day or whatever it is that you're pressuring yourself to do then is that a true, meaningful, authentic connection? so i mean, thinking about that piece of it, too, like how how did these people I care about How do they perceive me? What do they love about me?
00:36:21
Speaker
And what makes them want me around? Is it this arbitrary stuff I'm chasing? And I say arbitrary because a lot of times it is. Or is it just that I show up and that I'm like my values are the things that they appreciate about me?
00:36:36
Speaker
It just reminded me of the Harvard Adult Development Study where they did the, well, it's an ongoing study that's been running for 75 years. And what they have found is that it's not your career. It's not how much money you have. It's not how much you've raised and your status. It really is the quality of your connections. It's not even the quantity, it's the quality of connections.
00:36:59
Speaker
And we hear that so often that what it is, it's our relationships and our friendships and how we show up to people and how people show up for us that ultimately will matter at the end of the day.
00:37:12
Speaker
But we can't help it. Humans have carried this machinery on their shoulders. Yeah. That creates these rules. And as soon as language gets hold of something, it kind of ruins it if we're not careful. Like, it's almost like we know this.
00:37:28
Speaker
We know that hanging out with my friend is more important than whether she'll see the cleanest house. We still fall into the trap of looking in the corner and going, oh, no, i didn't move that tissue box. or that the The clothes are sort of out the window. And we feel our body tightening and the shame showing up. and So we know it in our bones, I think.
00:37:49
Speaker
It's just so hard when we... often get stuck in the thinking that we inevitably all have and life gets really tight and I think it's a regular that's why I quite like the idea of it being a regular practice that but it's it's it's very validating to me to have lots of company in the world of others who have but the same pesky critical thoughts and the same relentlessness and to be reminded that We're all in the same suit. That's why I love the ACT community. It's like this is just what humans do.
00:38:26
Speaker
Humans take something and make a rule about it and then get really stuck in running the show on the rule. And that's what we do because it's functioned in many ways to keep us alive and safe. It just doesn't function so well when we're trying to control the uncontrollables, such as how we feel, how we look.
00:38:46
Speaker
How people sort of perceive us. That's what we get stuck. I think it's so it's so true. And we know on that, on like you said, that kind of innate level that yeah we can't truly connect and have any depth in our mind.
00:39:03
Speaker
relationships if we're so focused on performance and how we're being perceived and kind of in our own heads about these things. Is my house, oh, it's a mess or they're judging me or all of those those kind of insecurities make it so that we can't really just like relate and be present with the person we're with.
00:39:23
Speaker
And yet that's all we want is to feel connected and belonging and We kind of get it. yeah look Yeah, we get in our own way. These strategies can backfire, these control efforts.
00:39:35
Speaker
So in the interest of time, and any final thoughts? As I was getting ready for this conversation, and this is one of my first weeks being back to work, and my brain does not feel like it's functioning the way that I was used to it before having a baby. And I found myself going down the same rabbit holes that we're talking about, this sort of like...
00:40:01
Speaker
Well, I'm not going to be able to get on there and and speak in the way that I want to speak in order to sound intelligent and in order to be perceived as someone who deserves to have written a book on this topic and blah, blah, blah. blah blah And then i was I had to kind of...
00:40:16
Speaker
stop myself and be like, all right, yeah, you're not you're not really feeling your most, your sharpest. And that's just part of being alive. And that's where you are today.
00:40:27
Speaker
and if people don't like it, like that's okay. And that's, they might not. And I guess a final thought would be that that that that this really is such a pitfall of being a human and that there's no cure necessarily, but that like i in tactics driving, I I blended intuitive eating, which I didn't really talk too much about today, but I blended that framework with ACT because they're both so much about taking what what we've sort of given to the outside world and making it more of an inside job again. So so taking this instead of focusing all of the time on like, what's going to earn me approval? What's the right thing to do according to these set of standards to to come inward and and use the wisdom of
00:41:14
Speaker
your own body and your values to guide you and how you want to behave. And authenticity is a value of mine. So when I come back, when I'm so afraid of stumbling on my words, and I mean, I feel that I did today, you know, and, ah but, but to be able to say like, I showed up as me and this is the state I'm in right now.
00:41:32
Speaker
And that matters too. yeah So I think, yeah, I think to, to encourage people to remember that this being alive thing is not really compatible with like hacking, hacking,
00:41:44
Speaker
your life into like hacking your day into this like optimized like this thing that you can kind of set and forget and if you just follow the formula you're you're never gonna have to feel any discomfort or stumble in any way because we're all just gonna do it forever one two wonderful song so thank you so much this has been marvelous and uh really appreciate your time thanks for having me it's Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast.
Engaging with the Audience
00:42:15
Speaker
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00:42:31
Speaker
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00:42:42
Speaker
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