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Secret #33: Parents Matter - But Do We Make a Difference with Dr. Emily Edlynn
205 Plays8 months ago
In this episode of 'Life's Dirty Little Secrets,' hosts Chris McCurry and Emma Waddington talk with Dr. Emily Edlin, a clinical psychologist specializing in children and families.
They explore the question of whether parents truly make a significant difference in their children's lives. The conversation delves into parenting pressures, the influence of genetics versus parental involvement, and the impact of different parenting styles. Emily shares insights from her new book on autonomy-supportive parenting, offering practical advice on managing parental anxiety and fostering healthy development in children.
The episode highlights the importance of maintaining a balanced perspective on the real influence of parenting and encourages listeners to focus on building nurturing relationships with their children.
Highlights:
- The impact of intensive parenting
- The influence of genetics vs. parenting
- Parental responsibility and anxiety
- The evolution of the parent-child relationship
Timestamps:
[01:54] The Impact of Parenting
[08:27] Genetics vs. Parenting
[11:38] Parental Responsibility and Anxiety
[22:28] Pseudoscience and Parenting
[29:01] Parental Expectations and Child Development
[30:31] The Importance of Parent-Child Relationship
[32:20] Technology and Modern Parenting Challenges
[34:44] Pressure in Youth Sports
[35:52] Dealing with Children's Disappointment
[40:27] Parental Influence and Letting Go
[44:52] Balancing Guidance and Freedom
About Dr. Emily Edlynn:
Check our Dr. Edlynn’s website
Follow @DrEmilyEdlynn on Instagram:
Emily Edlynn is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in pediatric health psychology who works in private practice with children, teens, and adults. She has a BA in English from Smith College, a PhD in clinical psychology from Loyola University Chicago, and completed postgraduate training at Stanford and Children’s Hospital Orange County. Emily spent almost ten years working in children’s hospitals before pivoting to private practice, which allowed her to start a writing career. Emily has written her blog, The Art and Science of Mom, since 2017 and a parenting advice column for Parents.com since 2019. Emily’s writing has also appeared in the Washington Post, Scary Mommy, Good Housekeeping, Motherly, and more. She recently joined the Psychologists Off the Clock podcast as a co-host and is the author of a new book, Autonomy-Supportive Parenting: Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent Confident Children. Emily lives with her husband, three children, and two rescue dogs in Oak Park, IL where she can see Chicago’s skyline from her attic window.
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Transcript
The Burden of Infallibility and Emotional Expression
00:00:02
Speaker
We're all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. All the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear and we must then live in fear that we will be found out. Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is life's dirty little secrets.
Introducing Emily Edlin and Her New Book
00:00:41
Speaker
Today we have the fabulous
00:00:43
Speaker
Emily Edlin, who's come back to talk to us today. And Emily, as you know, is a clinical psychologist specializing in children and families and is passionate about translating parenting research for the rest of us. And she's also the fabulous co-host of Psychologists Off The Clock, which is one of my favorite podcasts. And she's written a wonderful book, Autonomy, Support of Parenting, Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise competent Confident Children. And just recently has published a new book. Like when did it get published? I just got my copy and it's not out until August. So this is hot off the presses. That is fantastic. In your field, a journal to explore your emotion and it looks
00:01:33
Speaker
really useful. Actually, we were just saying how it looks useful to adults, to be honest. So the idea is that the journal that children will adolescent for use to sort of learn about their feeling. It's written for eight to 12 and it is really kind of a tutorial on the science of emotions, like why we have all the different emotions we have, even ones that are hard to feel. And so each chapter is a different emotion. And then within those chapters are activities to both understand the emotion and practice healthy coping.
00:02:08
Speaker
Oh, that's that sounds really helpful. In fact, it was really fun. Yeah. Yes. Really. I'll try and get hold of a copy. They usually come a bit later to Singapore, but yes. Congratulations. but me Thank you. Thank you. And thanks for the repeat invite. I feel so happy. I know. Yes. It's so fun. So today we have a particularly interesting they ah close to
Do Parents Really Influence Children's Development?
00:02:32
Speaker
everybody's heart. So the topic is parents matter, but do they make a difference? That's a bit controversial, I would say, but a really important topic to be discussing, to think about what is the real impact that parents can have in our children's development and our children's lives. So yeah, perhaps we can kick off with why this is an important conversation. Why do you think we should be having this conversation? and
00:02:58
Speaker
Well, from my standpoint, where I talk and write a lot about the risks and downsides of intensive parenting, which has become the really dominant parenting style of being heavily involved in every aspect of our children's lives, I think bringing up this question is a positive in the sense of getting some perspective on how much does all that involvement really change a child's trajectory and how much is it actually making a difference because it's it takes a ton of energy
00:03:37
Speaker
and attention. And again, I see a lot of the downsides, including parents kind of losing their core sense of self and identity because they're doing so much parenting and they're so, I call it hyper parenting. So I think it's a good question to really look at what do we know from the science and how can we examine the influence of parents on child development? Absolutely. and Yes. And hopefully have some answers so that we can regulate our parenting behaviors a little bit. Cause I do think, you know, there's been, I don't know how many books last time I looked written on parenting in the last couple of decades, to be honest, there's been a real shift, perhaps in response to the parenting in the sixties that has moved us into this very intensive and very intentional
00:04:36
Speaker
world of parenting. So yes, I'm really glad we are thinking about this and seeing what really is worth. We just had a ah conversation with Diana Hill, who used to be on psychologist at the clock, about wise effort. And it feels really important to be thinking about, you know, what really is going to make a difference when it comes to our parenting efforts and where is our energy well spent?
Genetics vs Parenting: What's More Influential?
00:05:03
Speaker
So yeah, let's have, let's start having this conversation. Do you want to kick us off, Emily, just thinking about, so what do we know about the impact of parenting?
00:05:13
Speaker
That is a really big question.
00:05:19
Speaker
And I would say this isn't, you know, I'm an academic by training, so I'm always really aware of what I don't know, right? yeah I mean, I'm so i i high integrity around what I'm representing. So I'll say that, you know, in my current work, I'm very much in the parenting universe of parent writing and parent guidance. But I'm not in the right now. I'm not like reading all the journal articles at this point. That was good enough in grad school. But I think, you know, there's there has been this back and forth even between scientists around how much do parents matter. And I have seen the headlines in media, popular media that's so click worthy of parents don't matter. You know, I think that gets everyone's attention.
00:06:10
Speaker
And despite the back and forth and this huge debate, as usual, I think the answer likely falls in the middle. I mean, these are both extreme sides. Parents don't matter or they are they are the primary influence. And it depends. It's going to depend on a lot of factors. And of course, I wrote a book. I think what gets confusing as a psychologist, too, is when you're reading all this, all these articles over decades about child outcomes, I wrote a whole book after reading dozens of articles about how parenting strategies specifically affect child outcomes. It's really hard to say parenting doesn't matter.
00:06:55
Speaker
It's a hard reconciling to make between and how to all how's all these early studies showing that this kind of parenting then leads to these outcomes. So I think that's where I get stuck. I'm curious where you fall in that. I but think it's an overly simplest question. I mean, it's it's kind of like when people ask the question, does psychotherapy work? It's like, well, what kind of psychotherapy delivered by whom to whom under what circumstances? And I know you've, Emily, talked about, you know, the cultural differences, you know, in Japan, you know, lots of co-sleeping, you know, the whole question of authoritative versus authoritarian parenting that's been going on for years and years.
00:07:48
Speaker
you know, that depends on, you know, your socioeconomic status and your, you know, your cultural history. So I think when we try to reduce these things to simplest questions, it it does generate more heat than life. It is really, I i was sort of when we were thinking about this topic, I think it might be worth thinking about the sort of two camps and why we've had this debate more recently in response to What is the real impact of parenting? And of course it is, I agree, it can be over-simplicated, but it's also worth thinking a little bit about what we know are individual differences and what we know are influenced by, its obviously, the nurture nature argument that makes things look really simple and it's much more complicated. But what is yeah know what is the genetic piece?
00:08:47
Speaker
What can we not influence through parenting? So what do we know? None of us are researchers. Let's just put that out there. And I don't know the research very deeply at all, but I am curious. So one of the debates, obviously side of the debates is that really it's genetics that drives outcomes more than parenting. And it's quite a strong argument. You know, genetics does account for probably 50, if not more, 70%, you know, how we do in life, how successful we are at school, our behavioral, some of our mental health issues. And so, you know, can parents really influence those parts of us? Well, I mean, a couple of things.
00:09:29
Speaker
measures of self-control, you know, going back to the marshmallow study, um measures of self-control are twice as predictive of academic success than our acute scores. And so whatever parents or the environment at large can do to help Children develop self-control skills are obviously going to affect academic success. The thing that I just would just throw out here is the whole idea of epigenetics, which I really you know can't say i understand, but
00:10:02
Speaker
We're beginning to understand that the environment can affect gene expression. So you could have all kinds of genes for this or that, and the environment, including the parent parental part of that, will turn on turn off some of those genes and get the final common pathway, you know, whatever that might be. So again, you know, to say is the genes or is it, you know, the environment that's blended in ways that we didn't appreciate even like 10 years ago. You know, another finding I ran across that was really interesting to me was this idea that children act like their parents when they're home with their parents.
00:10:45
Speaker
But then outside in the community and in their non-home environments, they are behaving in different ways. And that was one of the arguments that what we're seeing in terms of like parents seeing their children as similar to them is kind of an artifact of, or a bias of, well, they're behaving more like you around you. And I hadn't really thought of it that way, but it's kind of interesting because that brings in, a again, the impact of a child's other environments besides the home and family and how they're being shaped by their school environment, their community environment, their peer environment.
00:11:27
Speaker
Well, along those lines, I mean, children tend to be better behaved outside the home than in the home. meet And how children behave outside the home is more predictive of their future than how they behave in the home, which is comforting news that I've often conveyed to parents. You know, probably in large part because Kids are more regressed around their parents and are less likely to act in mature ways or try things out that they wouldn't dare try out. You know, their teacher or their friends, parents in terms of trying to get their needs met. These things are complicated.
Modern Parenting Pressures and Emotional Toll
00:12:08
Speaker
I guess it gets me thinking so, you know, as we only think about this when we become parents until we're parents, we don't really care too much about the influence parents can have on children, but it feels like a huge responsibility to become a parent and that we carry this tremendous weight. on how our kids will turn out. Like if our kids are rude, we feel responsible. If our kids don't do well in school, we feel responsible. If our kids aren't potty trained by 18 months, we feel responsible. You know, it's all on us. So at least recently, it feels like it's all on us. I can't say that previous generations felt that sense.
00:12:50
Speaker
responsibility. And you can see the kind of evolution of the literature that has moved us to that, to this place we are in today, I think, where parenting feels heavy and anxiety provoking and stressful. It's a lot of pressure. I think it's a high pressure culture right now around parenting. Yeah, because, I mean, not just because we're worried about the safety of our children, a lot of that, but it's because we think we can have such, make such a difference. And so thinking about how much the different choices that we make as parents can actually influence our kids, I think hopefully can help relieve some of that pressure. That's my hope out of our conversation today.
00:13:43
Speaker
Like we're going to sort out all these anxious parents out there. ah shit ah It's the anxious parents who are listening to their podcast. Sadly, there are parents out there who are not anxious, who do not feel responsible. And hopefully they're, they're listening, but i I would venture to guess that our demographic is the neurotic parent. yeah And you're absolutely right. And I say that, you know, with all kindness and and respect. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, that's what we're probably alluding to is that, you know, parenting matters mostly when parenting is done really badly. Like when there's neglect of parenting.
00:14:33
Speaker
Well, I'll share that my the beginning of my career, like even before graduate school, I worked in the child protection system and I worked in homes. So I was a home-based counselor. So 20 hours a week, I was sitting in family's homes who were under investigation for abuse or neglect. And I was part of the services for the family. And so, you you know, that was, I was really young. I was early 20s, so well before I became a parent myself. But it really gave me huge perspective on what new parents were worrying about with their kids. And I'm thinking,
00:15:17
Speaker
You are not harming your child by taking a shower while the baby is fussing. They're fine. You know, I just had this bigger like, you aren't you are actually feeding your child when your child's hungry. you know And there's just these basics that absolutely have to be in place. And most parents who are listening to these podcasts and reading the parenting books are doing those things and aren't at risk for child abuse or nu neglect.
00:15:50
Speaker
And you're right, the people who attend the the parenting courses, the people who read the books, who do the audio books and lectures, are all the ones that are doing a good enough job. yeah And are all the ones that are stressing about whether they are doing a good enough job. Yeah, they're the ones that do need the message f that we may matter less than we think we do, and that could help relieve the pressure. Years ago, Stanley Turecki, who wrote The Difficult Child, he came to Seattle and gave a lecture at the University of Washington. I was at Children's Hospital at the time, and for some reason I got picked to introduce him. So, introduced him to this 2,000 people in this lecture hall at the university on a rainy Tuesday night. And he got up and he said,
00:16:37
Speaker
You all are the best educated, most well-informed generation of parents in human history, Andrew, the most neurotic. He said, relax. He said, by virtue of you all being here on a rainy Tuesday night, you know, you're good King parents and you get to feel the energy in the room. la But it's true. I mean, we just make ourselves crazy with these questions. And am I doing it right? And there are 60,000 parenting books out there the last time Emily, you and I like looked it up and they're probably quite a few more since that's only been about 18 months. so so And so it's, yeah, it's I think the people who, people who
00:17:26
Speaker
are carrying the most, probably need to relax, and the people who aren't carrying probably need to step it up. and so And how do we reach those people? you know Obviously, Emily, you were doing that you know when you were doing that early work, and hopefully other people are doing that now. I'm sure they are, but probably not enough. Well, and what I learned from that work was the heavy impact of generational trauma and poverty. And it was so, it was just such a different world. And you're right, it's important that we figure out culturally, collectively how to better you meet the needs of those families who have long suffered and don't have
00:18:13
Speaker
the resources both like internally and concretely to raise children in healthier ways. But I think it's, again, it brings up the matter of perspective. you know when we say When we even say, do we matter? Do parents matter? For what? What does it mean like what are we what does it mean ah to raise a what kind of child?
What Defines Successful Parenting?
00:18:41
Speaker
like what are we even How are we even defining that? That's a great question. I was thinking about that um before we came on because i think I think our expectations are not, I guess the bottom line is a happy child.
00:18:54
Speaker
a child that's living as full a life as they can with all the opportunities that they want out of life. And that's, yeah. And that's a big socioeconomic piece. And I would also even question what is happy. I think it's, yeah, you're right. um the Happiness is nice, but it's fleeting. It is. It's fleeting. Yeah. And I think what we need to think about as parents is what do we really want for our children? And when we think about the impact of parenting, absolutely, what are we thinking that we're going to be able to impact? And I'll just share too that I have friends and families I've worked with.
00:19:39
Speaker
where the parents are very loving and attentive and maybe even not that neurotic. And they have children who struggle with various illnesses or disorders, or and they're not to blame. And I think that the cultural message is that somehow if our child has those struggles that we did something wrong. so There was a recent, i I won't name names, but there's a recent bestselling book that proposes, and it's all theory because there's no science in my mind to back this up, that ADHD is due to child trauma or infant trauma.
00:20:23
Speaker
And I'm thinking that is just laying on unnecessary guilt for all these parents who have children with ADHD, who are very loving, nurturing parents. And now there's this message that somehow there was a trauma that caused the ADHD. Almost hot right now. Yeah. It's it's the answer for everything. trauma. I agreed. And I think it'll pass. It'll be something else. Hopefully it'll be something else. Sorry for all the traumatized people like there that are just offended, but you know, come on.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah. I think, and just thinking about what you said, Emily, the piece that, you know, there has been so much responsibility laid at the feet of parents, a lot of mothers, mostly. Like if we think of some of the psychoanalytic theories, we talked about one just before we came on, which I have mentioned, because it's just too good. that Freud apparently said that asthma developed in children as a result of having overheard the parents having sex and the counting being as a result of the kid mimicking the sound that they heard. And that's just obviously a ridiculous statement. But, you know, there's been more harmful theories like the refrigerator mother by Leo Kanner regarding why
00:21:56
Speaker
children develop autism or schizophrenia. So very much at the feet of mothers, mostly mothers and their behaviors. So there's been a very damaging um ah history to for parents really and their responsibility for the outcomes. And like you said, with these family, I've worked with incredible families who have had children that were really suffering. and suffered, of course, tremendously as a result, but it having not been their fault as such. They didn't do anything wrong. And I think parents need to be liberated from some of this narrative that they've done. They make mistakes and mistakes, whatever they might be, from not showing up at someone's football match.
00:22:49
Speaker
to you know forgetting the lunchbox or something as being such a grave signs of neglect. I think things have gotten out of hand. I also want to just have this thought about the impact of pseudoscience in and how you know influencers have this huge platform now with social media to impart pseudoscience that's really dangerous, including we can't ignore the anti-vaccine movement.
00:23:21
Speaker
And that, again, is a parenting choice whether to get your child vaccinated. And there's huge fear mongering out there about that is not based on science about the risks of vaccinating your children. So I think I just want to put that out there as part of the culture we're parenting in. that we're just surrounded by these messages. It's really hard to tease apart what's true and what's not. And it's again, putting a lot of responsibility on parents. I think it's so interesting, isn't it? Cause I was just thinking how, you know, taking responsibility off parents in terms of outcomes, you know, these radical outcomes like children having, cause I do think
00:24:10
Speaker
You know, we can influence our children's outcomes if, you know, we're neglectful, we're abusive, where we do a really harmful job. Yes, of course. Or we bring up, you know, our children in incredible deprivation, not for any fault of our own. and That will have an impact. Or, you know, we know that the impact of postnatal depression and whether that's a genetic piece or not. So we know that there are pieces of our behavior that will influence the outcomes of our kids, but we just need to potentially also, so I think it feels liberating to think that we don't have as much control over the outcomes, but I wonder if
00:25:00
Speaker
That creates anxiety, too. Like, if we can't influence, then what? If we can't make a difference, then what? Yes, I think that's why this question keeps coming up. ah Some people like one answer and some people like another answer. But I think i' not I'll just throw out there. Yes, child abuse and neglect harms children. There's just no question. I mean, it actually changes their brain wiring, so we know it's harmful. I wonder also, however, if this anxious parenting
00:25:39
Speaker
becomes harmful in the way that it interferes with a child's development. So it's like we we get in the way of what our children need to do their own growth and development because we're trying to protect them so much.
Fostering Autonomy in Children
00:25:54
Speaker
So that's something that I sort of just see happening. And in my work in autonomy, supportive parenting, that's one of the big fundamental theories is that If we're not getting our child more autonomy, they're not gaining mastery and their own sense of autonomy to live a healthier, happier life. So I think that's something
00:26:19
Speaker
Just to think about for those neurotic, anxious parents, and I am included in that and that group of do we ever have to watch us how we might get in the way? And for example, my my oldest, you know I'm very school-oriented, high achievement. School is very important to me, always excelled in school. And it kind of shocked me, and my kids weren't wanting to do the exact same thing I did. But my oldest is now about to graduate eighth grade. And in sixth grade, she could care less about school. And we had to sort of, you know, encourage her to at least do her work. And we were we didn't focus on grades, but do your work and you just show up.
00:27:02
Speaker
This year, she just, and not that it's about the grades, but this is what it represents, she just earned her first 4.0 and she's incredibly proud of herself. And I watched her start to enjoy learning more. you know like It became a more internally motivated process for her. And I shared this story recently on a podcast and I kind of made the joke that, but yeah I probably had nothing to do with it. And the podcast host said, yeah, you probably didn't. And I said, well, but I think I could have, if I kept up high pressure on you need to get all A's, you're grounded if you don't get all A's. And you know if I would have kept up the external pressure, I don't know she would have found that internal motivation.
00:27:48
Speaker
and And I mean, we could argue that you do have a lot to do with it genetically. True. Right. but Like maybe she's predisposed if I just let her find her way with that. Yeah. Like also in the focusing on the grades, by the time the grades come out, it's too late. ah But by focusing on showing up, doing the work, the day-to-day process processes that are involved, then the grace take care of themselves. And at a certain point, you know, maybe not a person recognizes that, hey, this is kind of interesting. And they have the motivation to begin on their own.
00:28:30
Speaker
But yeah, I think if you had emphasized grades, it wouldn't have worked as well. So you had that influence by choosing what you were going to emphasize. And I guess that sort of reminds me that we know that parenting interventions help with anxiety. You know, anxious kids can be really well supported by parental intervention in terms of actually backing off and giving children opportunities to take risk and
00:29:05
Speaker
So we know we can help children when they're struggling, and with ADHD and behavioral issues, we know that parenting interventions really do help. So we can have influence, but perhaps the emphasis being mostly on when kids are struggling. You know, the question, is there a problem? Yeah. they Because what I see parents is they're just in this like constant go and worry, you worry. and I ask, but where's the problem? i Yeah, he's getting an A-minus. Okay. Yeah. you know I had a pretty high-end clientele here in Seattle and I've watched saddle change over the last 10 years in terms of high-tech and you know a lot of people coming in and a lot more pressure on kids.
00:30:01
Speaker
and Yeah, the problems that parents were bringing to me were, o I mean, beyond first world problems, there are like C-suite issues and the child's like eight. Yeah. What, you know, is there a problem? and maybe That's and a good question because parents can create a problem, but the problem might be that the kid isn't the way the parents want them to be. Exactly. yeah And that isn't really a problem with the kid. It's more a problem parent and their expectations.
00:30:43
Speaker
As I was thinking through these questions in preparation for today, one place I landed was focusing more on what kind of relationship do I want to nurture with my child rather than being so focused on this is the kind of child I should be raising or need to raise. And I just wonder about the shift around how am I relating to my child? Like how do we feel in our connection together rather than what kind of child am I going to end up raising and having that pressure? Because I think the relationship focus does allow for more of the freedom of your child to develop into
00:31:32
Speaker
who their real self is without these expectations that can be a mismatch. And I know in my work, and I know you've seen it, Chris, when there's that mismatch between parental expectations and a child's sense of identity, there's a lot of suffering for that child. Oh, yeah. And a lot of conflict and And if the relationship isn't good, then if the child does start to get into some trouble, you know, they don't have a home base to go back to and reconnect and maybe, you know, reset. So for me, it's the relationship is everything and I've counseled many parents not dying on the altar of homework or killing the relationship on the altar of homework. it's not a It's not a sacrifice you want to be making.
00:32:26
Speaker
Or these days cell phones, I mean media, that like technology is becoming the hill that the relationships are dying on from what I've seen. Yeah, and that's then tricky because you've got all kinds of stuff. I mean, the child's life through the phone or the computer that parents should be monitoring and, you know, maybe, you know, censoring and the better up against the the child's culture and in the whole TikTok thing. It's, you know, it's my wife and I often think, you know,
00:33:00
Speaker
We're very grateful that we had our child when we did says he's 30 now and he missed out on a lot of this stuff that's around the last 10, 15 years, which I'm not sure I would have known how to handle very well. And so in a way, parenting shouldn't be a means to an end. I mean, parenting really should be a relationship, not a verb. Right. And I think that's when it gets hard, when we're trying to change them. There was that book. Yeah. Wasn't it? The Carpenta versus is the gardener. And it has a lot about genetics and kind of velocity. But
00:33:37
Speaker
I like that idea that, you know, what kind of parent do we want to be? Are we going to be allowing that sort of genetic flow as the geneticists like to say, you know, allowing the but child to be who they are? what they're going to be and sort of make sure that they have the needs met to be able to you know become whatever the garden that they will be versus the carpenter that's kind of forcing them into being something that perhaps they're not. going to be, or they're not meant to be, or that we can't influence. Yeah. And I guess the sort of backdrop is the sense of responsibility for their outcomes means that we are very invested in them because of what it can potentially say about us. Which then adds so much pressure to the child. Yeah, true. That's, isn't it? It adds pressure to the child.
00:34:35
Speaker
yeah And I, I mean, I'll just bring up youth sports as another example. There's so much pressure these days compared to even I think 10, 15 years ago of athleticism, you know, and being a star athlete to be considered worthy and successful. And there's a lot, I mean, I've seen young kids do these crazy like flying to Europe to do a training clinic, you know, at eight years old. It's really a different world, too, that I think we need to really be paying attention to the pressure that it communicates to children and that we're becoming part of, even with good intentions.
Parental Expectations and Child Suffering
00:35:19
Speaker
Carl Jung said, the greatest influence on the life of a child is the life his parent never led. Wow. ah I've heard that's a good one. and See, you always come up with the quotes, Chris.
00:35:33
Speaker
yeah like It's so true. It's so true. I was just thinking recently that one of the hardest emotions that I struggle with is witnessing disappointment. My children's disappointment, like it. I really find that very hard. I find it hard to see them disappointed.
00:35:58
Speaker
And I'm thinking about why do I find it hard to see them disappointed? I can't, you know, rationally, I think disappointment is so important. But I think because I feel responsible that they're not, you know, getting whatever it is that they think. And I'm thinking of it particularly with my I have a son who's very invested in his football and would go to a clinic in Europe each day. Oh, mine would too, if he were invited. So I'm not shaming it. I'm just like, but it's out there, you know? And oh and it creates, yeah, I think I find it very difficult to navigate and I feel he gets
00:36:44
Speaker
huge disappointment if he doesn't play as well as he wanted, or he doesn't get picked for the starting lineup or, you know, he's sick and therefore he doesn't get picked to play the majority. You know, that, just that weight, it just, yeah. And and ah as a parent, I think, oh no, I find it really hard to see him disappointed. Like I should have been able to avoid it somehow. I don't know how, but somehow I should make it better.
00:37:15
Speaker
my husband's much better than me at sitting with disappointment. I find I was urged to rescue him somehow comes out. So I think it is hard as parents to sit with their difficult feelings because we do take responsibility for it. Even though their feelings probably, you know, have multiple reasons, sometimes nothing to do with us, even when they tell us it's got something to do with us, it probably doesn't have anything to do with us were just the first person they saw whilst they were feeling angry. And suddenly it's power. And we're the safest. And that's a good sign, right? it That we are that safe space to let it all out when they need to let it all out. Within limits, they can't just, you know, obsess out. There's an end to being the safe space. Sometimes it's a lot of work. And there is data that shows that, you know, mothers get
00:38:12
Speaker
the hard end of the stick, right? And mothers, I remember, you know, when I used to do a lot more assessments, you know, mothers always rate children as worse behaved, but you know, stronger tantrums. And everyone's going, oh, yeah, well, that's the mother's rating. Let's look at everybody else. We know mothers. And I'm thinking, no, we know mothers are really feeling this. I know they are. They're rating their experience because it is. bigger. egg one They're getting it. They're getting it. I know. and But I remember the feeling of, oh, it's mom reading this pre-kits. Of course, we know mom's voice sort of embellish and make it all bigger. But until I became a parent and I recognized no embellishing, this is really is. It's hard. Yeah. What do we do?
00:38:59
Speaker
the parent to do, given that our influence is probably late ah given the people who are listening, anybody that's listening. to Right. Right. This audience. Yes. This demographic is likely over her interpreting their level of influence. And I think it would be an interesting exercise for parents to if something happens with their child and they feel that site surge of anxiety or discomfort or needing to do something about it, to check in with, why am I feeling that impulse? You know, we worry about our children's wellbeing, but in a way that overreaches. And so I think building the awareness
00:39:47
Speaker
You know, I have some of my kids, I have three, so I won't name names, but have very big emotions and it's very intense. And I want to stop it sometimes because it's so big and hard to manage and be with. But I've learned how what gets my discomfort, like you were talking about about, is that I worry they're just not going to be okay. That is the underlying worry, is what if they don't come out of this? What if they're really not going to be okay and that gets my anxiety really ramped up? But then even having that awareness helps me take a step back and remember and put context
00:40:32
Speaker
This is life has challenges. This is them learning how to respond to a challenge and I need to let them learn. And so I think it's increasing that awareness in the moment and doing some checks throughout those uncomfortable parenting moments of why am I anxious? Is there an actual problem? And what am I worried about? What's my fear here? And okay, when? What does that even mean? Yeah. Well, I would hate to have my life, you know, signed by my twenties. It was not pretty. You know, I flunked out of the university.
00:41:12
Speaker
I was a janitor for a while, ah sleeping on my soon-to-be-brother-in-law's couch. you know I mean, it was not pretty, and I'm sure I put my parents through all kinds of you know worries. But you know life yeah got me you know going at a certain point. But yeah, I mean, I was not certainly not fully formed by the time I left my parents' house and had all lots of experiences to go before I became a reasonably responsible adult. And you know thank thankfully, my wife, you know, sure is the parts of me that aren't. But yeah, I mean, when it's a lifelong journey for most people, and parents are only there for a certain portion of it and in terms of day-to-day
00:41:57
Speaker
I wonder if there are any sort of mantras or affirmations that would help, right?
Letting Go of Control in Parenting
00:42:04
Speaker
like Like being able to say, this isn't about me, or like this is my child's path, or you know along those lines of separating, somehow separating from that investment that this is but I have all of this control or influence. Do you have ideas? I'm curious. It's a merit's a marathon, not a sprint. you know I'm just one of many influences on the life of my child. And and ah parenting is a process of starting to relinquish those influences and allowing other influences to stand, whether it's the kindergarten teacher on through their first boss at the fast food restaurant that they're working at.
00:42:55
Speaker
And I guess that's like, that's the scary part. oh yeah you We have to relinquish control. And maintain the relationship. We don't relinquish the relationship. Right. Yeah. And I want to, you know, I think where it can be a little fuzzy is you know, the whole permissive parenting too, which is that approach of like very few limits. Like there's a lot of warmth, but there's like very few limits and rules and structure. And some of this, you know, if we're like, oh, well, we don't have influence, so it doesn't matter what we do. That's not quite it either, right?
00:43:37
Speaker
and We're not going to get neglect just because, you know, we know that if you are doing well as a family, socioeconomically, academically, then your kid is going to be okay. But that doesn't mean we stop sending them to school. Exactly. Right. And it's going to depend. It's, you know, you each have three children, you know, they're probably all quite different. I know, you know, I've heard Emma talk about how, you know, different her children are. So it kind of depends. What does this child need, you know, as opposed to this child? And then they like change on you. You know, they go from being a toddler to, you know, a school-aged kid to an adolescent to be an adult and you have to adjust accordingly.
00:44:26
Speaker
and And so we're talking about the relationship goes through changes as well. And I think we need to normalize that. And I happen to have my 12 year old is my middle child. And so I've done this once with her older sister and I'm realizing for these two, this 11 to 13 age is a huge transformation of how they're connecting with me or not, you know, where they need differentiate from me a lot. So there's a lot more pushing me away. But that doesn't happen. So I think the relationship is going to change too. And we need to be open to that and understanding and kind of go with the flow of that as the best we can.
Evolving Parent-Child Relationships
00:45:07
Speaker
Yeah, because I guess when I'm thinking about relationship, we can get a bit confused as parents.
00:45:12
Speaker
What does a parenting relationship look like? And it's not about being our kid's friend. And it's not about them always being happy. It's actually having a relationship where you set boundaries. You say, no, you say, I didn't like this. You say, I did like this. And I think you're fabulous. It's the whole of it. And that being a really important piece to their development, I think, maybe not in terms of Yeah, I think in terms of outcomes because, you know, they've learned about relationships with us. I think it's establishing guardrails where it's guidance as opposed to, you know, micromanaging. Yeah, we're not the cruise director. Right. You know, it's providing feedback. I used to tell my son, I am representing society at this moment.
00:46:07
Speaker
if If what you're doing is annoying me, it's probably going to annoy other people. and You know, he'd roll his eyes. I'm just like, oh God, parents for psychologists, I'm doomed. you know but But it's true. you know like I'm representing society here, and I don't think I'm unusual in how I'm responding to your behavior at the moment. Yeah. And I've had the whole, my body, my choice for everything, my, my life, my choice, you know, there's that. And I've say, well, I have the fully developed adult reign. So, and I am in your role as parents. So yeah, I need to help help find some limits here to your life, your choice. It's not all your choice for your own wellbeing. Right. Add your own goods. It's.
00:46:55
Speaker
Yes, it's really wonderful to be talking about parenting in this way. I found the conversation really quite liberating and I felt quite validated because I can trip over myself with a parent and start worrying if I forgot to pick up my child. They will then have to bring it up in therapy in 20 years time. Well, maybe they have to have something to bring up, right? Maybe it's something else to even know had happened, which is more likely and accept that, you know, things are influencing my kids that are beyond my control. They will develop into their little
00:47:33
Speaker
not so little beings. And I will do the best I can to have a relationship where I can love them for who they are, even when I don't like them. Because there are times when we don't and they don't like us. And that's okay. That's okay. It's part of growing up. It really is. So thank you. Any final, anything else? I think our final answer to this question is it depends.
00:48:09
Speaker
but oh no Which is not the best-selling answer, unfortunately, because it does not provide certainty. But I'm hopeful that list people listening to this can come away with perspective and more context and kind of let themselves off the hook for, you know, not just don't sweat the small stuff is kind of my take home too. Don't sweat the small stuff and just focus on the rear picture.
The Fleeting Nature of Parenting Models
00:48:38
Speaker
Yes. And I think also all these different models of parenting, like attachment parenting, detachment parenting, reattachment, I don't know, all of these different models.
00:48:52
Speaker
that there are so many and they're so short-lived because the reality is that they probably don't make that big a difference. thats That's why we seem to sort of come up with more. And, you know, I would like to sort of liberate parents and into, you know, trying to enjoy the ride a bit more and not get so entangled with their worries about outcomes and are they doing a good enough job and I think I wouldn't want to say it, but I think by definition, if they're worrying about it, they're probably doing a good enough job.
00:49:25
Speaker
Right. and And the emphasis is on good enough. Which includes our kids not liking us and our kids getting angry with us and our kids telling us we're not doing a good enough job. All of that still makes it a good enough job. It's hard as it is. Wonderful. Well, thank you, Emily. This was a delight. Thank you so much. Thanks for making this happen. I appreciate you very much. Congratulations on the new book. Oh, I know. I'm sitting here thinking, and I wrote a parenting book too. I'm a part of the problem. yeah
00:50:06
Speaker
Yes, we are. But I will say but are going to make a difference yeah this conversation will help everyone. But and really though, in my book, I am and make an effort. to have it be very flexible, more of an approach and mindset than an actual do this, don't do that. So I'm hoping I'm straddling the line a little bit where there's more of an expansiveness to it than a prescription. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, Emily. Thank you.
00:50:38
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets Podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at life's dirty little secrets podcast at gmail dot.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at life's dirty little secrets or on Facebook at life's dirty little secrets podcast. We invite you to follow, rate and review us on wherever you listen to this podcast. It is the best way to get our podcast out in front of new listeners. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with more. See you then.