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Secret #48: The Tree That Bends with Ross White
202 Plays2 months ago
Uncovering the tree that bends and thrives may just redefine how you approach mental well-being amidst life's storms. In this episode, Dr. Ross White, an acclaimed clinical psychologist, takes us on a journey through the metaphor of a tree that bends during turbulent times, drawing from his extensive work with high-performing individuals and culturally diverse populations. He shares how the Tanzanian proverb, "the wind does not break the tree that bends," serves as an empowering metaphor in his book, emphasizing resilience and flexibility.
Dr. White discusses the zero-sum game fallacy, conveying that success and well-being need not mutually exclude each other. Highlighting the importance of thriving over mere surviving, he passionately debunks the endurance culture's myths, urging listeners to embrace traits like flexibility and self-compassion. The discourse around burnout post-pandemic, and the societal pressures magnified by social media, sets a backdrop for his practical wisdom on thriving.
He introduces the powerful method of reflection through the get, threat, and reset modes of motivation. By blending insights from nature with psychological frameworks, Dr. White offers actionable strategies for nurturing a flexible and self-fulfilling mindset. Anchored in acceptance and commitment therapy principles, this conversation is a masterclass in aligning one's purpose with their daily actions.
Whether you’re seeking profound psychological insights or practical advice for fostering a balanced life, this episode with Dr. Ross White offers an inspiring exploration of sustaining success without losing oneself. A must-listen for anyone aiming to thrive amidst life's challenges, anchored in resilience and compassion.
Highlights:
- The Tanzanian Proverb: The Tree That Bends
- Concept of Thriving and Well-being
- Cultural Expectations and Mental Health
- Balancing Success and Emotional Health
- Emotional Awareness and Regulation
- Purpose and Intention in Life
- Challenges of High Performance
- Role of Self-Compassion and Willingness
- Forming Purpose and Achieving Balance
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Transcript
Acceptable Fallibility and Self-Disappearance
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Podcast's Aim and Human Experience
00:00:26
Speaker
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Introduction of Guest Dr. Ross White
00:00:42
Speaker
Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington. And I'm Chris McCurry. Today, we are very privileged to have as our guest, Dr.
Dr. White's Achievements and Contributions
00:00:51
Speaker
Ross White. ah Dr. White is based in Northern Ireland, but where he is an award-winning clinical psychologist, researcher, and author who specializes in supporting the mental health and well-being of adults working in high-performance environments, including elite-level athletes in football,
00:01:09
Speaker
rugby, track and field, and tennis. He has collaborated with the World Health Organization and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees on projects to reduce distress experienced by populations in the aftermath of humanitarian crises.
00:01:25
Speaker
Dr. White is a professor professor of clinical psychology at Queen's University, Belfast. I'm the founder of Strive to Thrive, a clinical psychology consultancy firm providing interventions and training to help individuals and organizations thrive.
00:01:42
Speaker
Not only that, he is the lead author of the recently published Acceptance and Commitment Approaches to Athletes' Well-Being and Performance of the Flexible Mind. And he is the author of The Tree That Bends, How a Flexible Mind Can Help You Thrive, from the Tanzanian proverb, the wind does not break the tree that bends.
00:02:02
Speaker
And we'll have links for both of these books and other resources in the show notes for this episode. And but no last but not least, in 2020, Dr. White was recognized as one of the 10 people in the UK who are changing the face of health.
00:02:18
Speaker
Welcome,
Significance of Tanzanian Proverb and Book Insights
00:02:19
Speaker
Dr. White. Pleasure to be here. Thank you The tree that bends this Tanzanian proverb, tell us more about the origins of that idea.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, I'm blessed to have had the opportunity to work internationally around mental health. And you mentioned the collaborations with the World Health Organization and the UNHCR.
00:02:42
Speaker
And that work has been around the development of a self-help intervention, guided self-help intervention. which is based on therapy that I use extensively that you guys will be familiar off, but maybe less familiar to some listeners, ah acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT.
00:03:01
Speaker
And yeah, part of the work that I've done in sub-Saharan Africa has also been to understand idioms of distress and idioms of well-being. which are culturally specific linguistic ways of expressing what it means to experience distress, but also to experience resilience and well-being.
Thriving Without Sacrificing Well-being
00:03:24
Speaker
So yes, I came across this Tanzanian proverb, the tree that bends does not break or the wind does not break the tree that bends. It can be expressed different ways during the course of that work. And it was a and very powerful image that stuck with me.
00:03:41
Speaker
And as i sat down to write this book that was so important for me to write and to share the knowledge and insights that I've acquired over decades of work, that metaphor really was there and I wanted to incorporate that in.
Societal Pressures and Children's Book on Anxiety
00:03:59
Speaker
And ultimately, the book is about helping people to break through without breaking you it's about recognizing perhaps one of life's dirty little secrets that success and well-being don't need to be a zero-sum game right we don't have to sacrifice ourselves at the altar what is supposedly success that we can actually excel and feel well so that was really the guiding ambition for the writing of the tree that bends and i thought that as a title worked really well
00:04:36
Speaker
This idea of the zero-sum game, in order for me to be successful in one area, I've got to diminish myself or sacrifice in some other area. Can you give some examples of how people might get caught in that trap?
00:04:51
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Yeah, and absolutely.
00:04:56
Speaker
Dear listeners, Chris and I are excited to tell you about our book that is currently available for pre-order on Amazon. Justin Case Sits With Anxiety is for 8 to 12-year-olds struggling with anxious thoughts and feelings, and the tools and ideas in the book are based on acceptance and commitment therapy.
00:05:12
Speaker
In the book, Justin has his first babysitting job, and together... We help him learn to have his anxious thoughts and feelings and still stay focused on what he needs to do in order to get job done well.
00:05:24
Speaker
The book was published with Jessica Kingsley Publishers and is an excellent resource for parents and those working with kids and anxiety.
Burnout, Genuine Thriving vs. Influencer Culture
00:05:31
Speaker
Have a look online and pre-order your copy now.
00:05:37
Speaker
we had hoped that the COVID pandemic for all of the distress and trauma and grief that it caused would ultimately signal a new beginning, that it would help us to re-examine the commitments that we have in life and our work-life balance, or perhaps people refer to it as work-life blend.
00:06:00
Speaker
And that um this was the dawning of a new age when we would have that ability to both do well, but also to feel well. But the indications are that actually rates of burnout are increasing.
00:06:14
Speaker
And since the pandemic, surveys have indicated that we're actually working longer hours than we were before. So I was concerned deeply by that.
00:06:26
Speaker
And yeah, if we think about burnout as being an end state that we obviously want to try to avoid, this concept of thriving it's very important.
00:06:37
Speaker
And that's in the title of the book, you know, how a flexible mind can help us thrive. And thriving is a concept that we use it, obviously, in everyday language quite a lot. But in psychological terms, it's a concept that people like Daniel Brown at the University of Portsmouth, who's a sports psychologist, has been doing a lot of research on. And it is about this ability to both do well, but also to feel well.
00:07:04
Speaker
So, yeah, i was very motivated to try too see what we could do to spread these messages around thriving and the importance of thriving, but also practical tools and strategies and techniques we can use to help people thrive.
00:07:18
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And I wanted that to offset some of the messaging in popular culture and social media. Gosh, you know, the ordinary is a immune from going viral.
00:07:33
Speaker
It's the extraordinary that goes viral. And we enter into this process of social comparison about these people doing incredible things and think, wow, how can I compete with that?
00:07:45
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And then we get really compelling messaging from influencers who seem to be doing incredible things and advocate incredible measures to try to achieve those incredible things.
00:08:00
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So there are folk out there like David Goggins, and there's a lot to admire about David Goggins, ex-military, ultra athlete, but he finishes all of his videos with the notion, stay hard.
Flexibility and Self-Compassion in Success
00:08:14
Speaker
right? And I kind of watch that and listen to that and I kind of think, oh yeah, maybe I need to stay hard. Maybe I need to just suck it up, do more, be more.
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, relentlessness, that's good, that's good. And it is a compelling sell. We all want to be extraordinary in that sense. But for me, thriving and being able to sustain our success in the longer term is about embracing and celebrating other traits,
00:08:44
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dare I say, potentially less sexy traits that don't lend themselves maybe as well to buzzwords or nice catchphrases. So stay hydrated.
00:08:57
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Maybe it doesn't work quite as well as stay hard or indeed stay flexible. Yeah, okay, maybe a bit better, but maybe just not quite as compelling as the stay hard line.
00:09:09
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But I would argue these issues around, well, being flexible, being self-compassionate, being forgiving of oneself, relenting more.
Impact of Viral Content on Self-Perception
00:09:18
Speaker
not just being relentless, are so important for us being able to take care of ourselves so we can continue to take care of business.
00:09:25
Speaker
So that was really a central thrust the writing of this book. Well, isn't you just can't sustain these kinds of, whether it's the pace or the output or whatever it may be. i mean, at certain point physiologically, you're just going to have, you know, parasympathetic rebound. Right. And things are going to things are going to crash.
00:09:47
Speaker
yeah And we don't know what these influences are doing or what they look like when they're off camera. But yeah, there is a lot of pressure. i I love this idea of the ordinary is immune from going viral. Yeah, it it just doesn't sell. you know i wouldn't yeah Not that I ever get on Facebook.
00:10:05
Speaker
i Actually, I did yesterday because a friend posted something and I i was 45 minutes later. was like, oh my God, I just wasted 45 minutes. but you know it's never... You know, I took a nap with the cat this afternoon. yeah It's got to be some extraordinary achievement that I'm, you know, bragging about.
00:10:25
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yeah Well, ah let let me ask you a question. Do you know Jim Whittaker?
Cultural Messages and Role of Fear in Mental Health
00:10:30
Speaker
and ah Either of you heard of Jim Whittaker? The mountain climber, yes. He's well from Washington State, where I live. There you go.
00:10:37
Speaker
So 1963, the first American to conquer Everest. Right. Jim Whitaker also launched a t-shirt. You're young enough maybe to remember no fear t-shirts.
00:10:51
Speaker
I don't know if they, yeah, but you had this kind of branding and these slogans, which were all about that kind of get mentality, you know, and Jim Whitaker, he famously said, if you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
00:11:08
Speaker
Right. I think that was a no fear T-shirt. I swear I remember seeing that. That's where I maybe first saw it. So, yeah, inadvertently, Jim Whitaker contributed to this messaging around, you know, you needing to be on the edge.
00:11:26
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But I would say, well, if you're not living life on the edge, you're going to be healthier and more productive.
Emotions as Messengers in Life
00:11:32
Speaker
Well, not quite as good a T-shirt, right? Yeah, no, it's yeah.
00:11:36
Speaker
I mean, we could try marketing that, but no, I mean, it's, you know, it's odd that a mountain climber would be promoting no fear because I've also heard that the day that you're not afraid is the day you should stop climbing because it puts you in a very dangerous place, right? And more climbers, 80% of climbing accidents occur on the descent, in part because people are tired, but also they're more careless.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, so you've got gravity, you know, helping them. your fault. But yeah, people get complacent and they lose that edge. And certainly in an act, we would never tell people, you know, don't have fear.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yep. We'd say have it and. Yep. what you need to do. But yeah, the culture sends a lot of these messages that if you're feeling something, it's a problem. Yeah.
00:12:26
Speaker
And Chris, just on that point, you know, I'm a great believer in encouraging people to reflect on the function that emotions serve. And that was an important point you were alluding to there, right?
00:12:38
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ah About the function that fear can serve in terms of trying to preserve our integrity, our well-being, our safety. So, yeah, I use that acronym, TEAM, T-E-A-M, Treat Emotions as Messengers.
00:12:54
Speaker
and So often I think we get into that process of seeing emotions as an inconvenience or something to be got rid of, something that's potentially getting in our way.
00:13:06
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So I think we also need to recognize the potential functions that these can serve and to allow space to show up, to get in contact with some of those emotions so that they can really communicate to us what it is that does matter, what is important in our lives.
Social Media's Role in Toxic Overachievement Culture
00:13:23
Speaker
And I think emotions can be a really helpful window of opportunity to understand what matters in life. Right. Directly connected to what we value. Yeah. i was just wondering as in this idea of being this natural propensity that we have to compare as humans that we're comparing ourselves with, you know, one thing that we talk about a lot in this um podcast is that we compare humans our insides with other people's outsides and this propensity that we have to want to be like everybody else. And that was, of course, with social media, it means that we compare ourselves not just to our neighbors and our small community, but to millions of people. And, you know, this idea that we're not good enough if we're not striving as much as the person on social media or the person at work is that the message is that we're not good enough.
00:14:18
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um And so thinking about that sort of toxic overachievement culture that we're immersed in, you also talk about the importance of...
00:14:31
Speaker
understanding what is your purpose, what is important to you. And you had a great acronym, which off the top of my head, I can't remember, but I will just find it in a minute, which was strong intention, light attachment. I love that.
00:14:50
Speaker
And so, i you know, recognizing that we live in in in, most of us live in cultures that are quite demanding of us. being at work, being yeah you know as a parent, be it everything that we do, we've got to give it 100%. And that's the messaging that we have.
00:15:08
Speaker
But under there is something that is also important to us. And there are things that we do that are important. you know Parenting is important. you know I don't have to sacrifice myself at the altar of being a parent, but parenting is important. And how do we understand, how do we find that balance where,
00:15:29
Speaker
we recognize
Tree Metaphor for Balancing Life's Striving and Resetting
00:15:30
Speaker
that we want to do well. You know, perhaps we're writing a book, like, you know, you've done such a great job with yours and you want to work hard and do a great job. But how do you find that place?
00:15:42
Speaker
Is it, where do we, how do we know when to slow down? Like, when do we need to do, like you mentioned, relent more or as you mentioned in the book, reset?
00:15:54
Speaker
How do we know when to do that? great question and i'll go back to that metaphor the central metaphor for the book the tree and as helpful as mobile phones digital technologies apps can be for helping us to understand our thoughts and our emotions and potentially to regulate those thoughts and emotions and I think we need to look to nature as a teacher.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I think if we are talking about the concept of thriving and the importance of this notion of thriving, doing well and feeling well, nature can teach us a lot about that.
00:16:37
Speaker
So if we think about a tree in the spring and the summer, ah tree will have its get mode. It needs to produce the fuel that needs to grow and it will capture the sun's energy through this process of photosynthesis to generate that fuel.
00:16:55
Speaker
So it's important for trees to go after that energy. So that's why branches and leaves grow towards the sun. So it can capture the energy. so trees have to strive.
00:17:08
Speaker
They have their get mode and I will be the first to concede and to celebrate the important role that striving will have in our lives. It's important to set goals. It's important to have a sense of and fulfilling those goals.
00:17:25
Speaker
And we also need to recognize that as we do that, we're going to experience challenge. There will be challenges along the way. and often we think that maybe challenges block our progress towards our goals.
00:17:39
Speaker
No, our progress towards our goals generates those challenges. It's an inevitable part of what it means to commit to something that is important to you.
00:17:51
Speaker
So often we sort of see the worry, the fear, concern, the threat as a hindrance in our progression. But actually it's an inevitable consequence of moving towards what matters to you. If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't worry about it.
00:18:10
Speaker
So as we do that, we're going to experience a sense of threat. And trees also have their threat mode. Trees have to weather storms, okay?
00:18:21
Speaker
Storms that will test their um integrity. Trees also have to be responsive to potential infestation from bugs or fungi that can kill trees.
00:18:34
Speaker
So a tree needs to invest energy in protecting itself. So trees have their threat mode and we too have our threat mode. It's important for us to respond to potential risk, to danger and to look after ourselves.
00:18:51
Speaker
So we have our threat mode. Finally, if you think about trees in the winter and autumn, trees drop their leaves. The trees do that because the sun's energy isn't as strong.
00:19:04
Speaker
So it's not photosynthesizing to the same extent. It's not as efficient to process. But trees also drop their leaves so that snow doesn't gather on their branches and break the branches.
00:19:16
Speaker
So trees have their reset mode during autumn and winter, it's a time for taking stock, revitalizing to go again and the spring and summer.
00:19:28
Speaker
So just like trees have their get, threat, and reset mode, we have our get, threat, and reset modes. I would argue in modern life, and and I think you'll recognize this, and you too, Chris, w right, that the get mode and the threat mode can be really highly activated.
00:19:45
Speaker
And that means that the reset mode is potentially downgraded or it certainly becomes the poor relative and perhaps gets underserved. So I think we need to be purposeful in making time and opportunity for those resets so that we can continue to to sustain our efforts in the longer term.
00:20:05
Speaker
So nothing wrong with striving. nothing wrong with surviving, but we also need to revive. Reviving is an important part of this picture. And we can do that in proactive way. We can plan resets.
Importance of Reset Moments to Avoid Burnout
00:20:22
Speaker
So if we recognize that we've got a period of busyness where we're working to a deadline, go for it. Yeah, and take care of yourself as you're doing it, but then try to build in opportunities for reset beyond that.
00:20:35
Speaker
So you can do that proactively. But there are also what I call ah momentary moves for reset that you can do in a more reactive way. If you notice that your threat system is really highly activated,
00:20:47
Speaker
and you've had a very stressful day, there are these momentary moves for reset that I talk about in the book that can be really helpful for bringing us back to center and allowing us to feel a bit more grounded in the storms of life that we might be experiencing.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, that could be as simple as three mindful breaths in order to reset yourself. and But working with parents all those decades, you know, I would say you have to schedule your time.
00:21:15
Speaker
It can't be just... you know, fleeing from the kids because you're completely overwhelmed, but it has to be these two hours on Thursday evening are mine.
00:21:27
Speaker
yeah And that's just set in stone, you know, within reasonable limits, but you're just anticipating that I'm going to get my break. You know, I'm going to get, be able to go to the gym or, you know, my book club or you know, what, you know, whatever it may be, but it's there.
00:21:46
Speaker
on the horizon and not just something that's done out of desperation. I think that's so important. And yeah I was reflecting for this podcast about life's dirty little secrets and a shared one earlier.
00:21:59
Speaker
Right. But another one I think that's really important for the listeners is that being selfish is not the opposite of being selfless. And often we view that as a a binary dichotomous thing.
00:22:14
Speaker
Do you know if I'm not being selfless, if I'm not there giving for my kids, if I'm not there giving for my partner, if I'm not there giving for my employer, then I must be selfish.
00:22:26
Speaker
But actually, there's this concept, and I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it, and I love it. It's this idea of being self-ful, about recognizing that we all have these basic psychological needs for autonomy, so having a sense of agency in our lives.
00:22:45
Speaker
relatedness. So having a sense of connection with others and having a sense of mastery. So it feeling that we're developing skills, that we're becoming more competent at doing things. So we have those basic psychological needs and it's important for us to have the opportunity to meet those needs.
00:23:03
Speaker
And that's about us being self-full so that we can contribute to play a very active role in helping to support others too. And I guess just coming back to this idea, I love forget, threat, reset.
00:23:19
Speaker
And so we know, i guess that's where emotions, right? You know, treat emotions as messengers, that we know perhaps that our threat system has been overly activated for too long.
00:23:32
Speaker
Understanding just like with the tree that we will have an activated threat system every single day.
Mindfulness of Motivational Modes for Well-being
00:23:40
Speaker
But when it's activated for too long, then our emotions will start to tell us, you know, we start to feel depleted or some of those burnout signs like cynical, negative about, that's the message from your nervous system to reset.
00:23:58
Speaker
that's why emotions are really important as opposed to just push through, suck it up. yeah Actually we do, that's when we stop striving. So using those emotions to tell you when you need that reset, i guess.
00:24:13
Speaker
Well, asking yourself that that's beautiful and that's absolutely right. Treating the emotions as the messenger and align that feed into some of that thinking about, well, what motivational mode am I in?
00:24:24
Speaker
And that for me is a really important element of this as well. The noticing. And I literally ask myself on a number of times through the day, well, what motivational mode am I in at the moment? Am I in get mode?
00:24:41
Speaker
Am I in threat mode? Am I in reset mode? And I would encourage listeners to ask themselves that question as well. And if you're noticing a recurring theme in how you're answering that question, well, that should be communicating something to you ah about the need for redress or rebalance around, well, okay, maybe I need to be a little more purposeful in trying to make time for the reset.
Tree's Anatomy Inspiring Flexibility
00:25:10
Speaker
But if you think about, you know, what listeners will be then asking, okay, well, I've noticed what mode I'm in and what can I then do? If you think about how trees navigate their way through get, threat and reset, the tree uses its anatomy, its roots, its trunk, its crown, right? Branches and leaves.
00:25:33
Speaker
And I think that again is a very powerful metaphor for how we can have the flexibility to move between those different motivational modes. So let's think about the roots of a tree that anchor the tree in its environment.
00:25:48
Speaker
Well, we can be anchored in the here and now, the time and place where our life is unfolding. Too often we mentally time travel to the past or to the future in a very unconscious way right our mind wanders and that can sometimes deplete our ability to make the most of the here and now so being anchored is about recognizing we can be where our feet are not where our head is drifting off to so come back to the here and now be anchored
00:26:22
Speaker
Then it's about being willing, just like the trunk of a tree has to be willing to bend and flex in the wind. We need to be willing to recognize that our minds are story generating machines.
00:26:35
Speaker
You know, they write these scripts about who we are, what we're capable of, what other people think about us. Just like that. So we need to be willing to recognize that our minds generate these stories and willing to show up, make space for the emotions that come along with those stories.
00:26:53
Speaker
So we need to be willing. And then finally, we need to be i empowered. Just like the tree is empowered by the sun's energy. We need to be im empowered by our sense of purpose and our personal values and the line of purpose and personal values to really inform the choices that we're making.
Intrinsic Motivation Over Extrinsic Pressures
00:27:11
Speaker
So just like a tree uses its anatomy, ability to flexibly move between those different modes of get, threat, and reset can be helped by our ability to be anchored, willing, and empowered, which are the three elements of what I call a flexible mind, which is ultimately what the book is helping the reader to develop.
00:27:31
Speaker
So how does disentangle get from threat? Because I could see ah number of situations where I could say to myself, I'm in Getman, but what's really underlying that is some sort of threat, like, you know, I'm not achieving enough, or if I don't, you know, do this, then I'm not going to get the promotion that I need, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:27:55
Speaker
So is there some overlap or some infiltration of threat into get that we might be mindful of yeah i think that's a great observation and it's a fine line that we tread in terms of the get and the threat mode the get can be highly activating motivating gives us that sense of direction and momentum And then we can experience challenge along the way that can quickly tip us into that threat that I'm not good enough or this isn't going to work out or other people are are thinking that I'm crazy for doing this, right? You know, the threat mode can be activated very quickly in that context.
00:28:38
Speaker
I think an important question is question our goals. You know, why is it? that we are seeking to achieve a particular goal.
00:28:49
Speaker
And I think that speaks to your your' ah suggestion that, well, they're underneath the get, we might be motivated by a sense of threat. So our push to achieve a promotion or try um try to live in a bigger house is motivated by us not feeling that we're enough as we are.
00:29:14
Speaker
So I think, yeah, let's sort of delve in and reflect a little on why it is we are seeking to achieve a particular goal. Is this something that is intrinsically motivated?
00:29:28
Speaker
Right. Which speaks to sense of purpose as opposed to extrinsic reward. And that's the kind of external reinforcers, the the very tangible kind of forms of reward like money, status.
Acceptance in Therapy as Willingness and Courage
00:29:45
Speaker
etc. And there's nothing wrong with being motivated by extrinsic rewards. We need to take care of ourselves financially and those we care about. But at least we can be explicit in knowing that is the source of motivation for us.
00:29:59
Speaker
And if we are too motivated by extrinsic forms of reward, that can be problematic in the longer term because the research evidence suggests that intrinsic motivators, that sense of purpose and fulfillment, living a good life as the Greek philosophers would have referred to it, can be more sustaining for our well-being in the longer term.
00:30:23
Speaker
So nothing wrong with being motivated by those extrinsic rewards, but we need to recognize that the intrinsic stuff is important. And we find that out by asking ourselves that question. well Well, why am i so motivated to achieve this particular ambition, this goal, this objective?
00:30:42
Speaker
And can I then also recognize that there are other factors that are going to be um important, enriching, motivating for me that might fit a bit more with my sense of purpose?
00:30:53
Speaker
Excellent. At some point, I know you've said that being flexible doesn't mean bending to the will of others. That's right. And I know one of the things that often confuses people about acceptance and commitment therapy is the whole idea of acceptance.
00:31:10
Speaker
And, you know, does that mean I just have to accept all this terrible stuff? And it's like, you know, it's not thinking that this is great or this is correct or fair.
00:31:22
Speaker
It's recognizing this is the way things are. And what do I do at this point? So can you talk a little bit more about how flexibility doesn't mean you're going to be a doormat for other people or not stand up for yourself or take care of yourself. Yeah, brilliant. And it's such an
Supporting Young People with Acceptance Therapy
00:31:41
Speaker
important point. And and you're right, it it can be a point of confusion for many people, the notion of acceptance and commitment therapy.
00:31:50
Speaker
And the idea that acceptance is in some way weak, passive, submissive, surrendering, giving in. So early in my career as a clinical psychologist, I worked with young people experiencing quite complex mental health problems, broadly understood as psychosis.
00:32:10
Speaker
Psychosis is an umbrella term that can be used to capture a range of psychiatric diagnoses such as schizophrenia or bipolar affective disorder, schizoaffective disorder.
00:32:23
Speaker
And those types of challenges are characterized by people experiencing very distressing symptoms. Sometimes it could be auditory hallucinations, hearing voices that other people don't hear that can be quite critical, harsh, commanding, bullying.
00:32:39
Speaker
or having unusual beliefs that other people around them don't share. So for example, thoughts of paranoia. So people being out to harm you in some way.
00:32:52
Speaker
So for me to sit down with this young person who's experiencing this very distressing collection of symptoms to say to them, hey, why why don't you just accept the auditory hallucination that you're experiencing?
00:33:06
Speaker
Or, yeah, why why don't you just accept the fact that you believe that other people are out to harm you? You know, that is just not going to wash. It wouldn't be appropriate. It wouldn't be helpful.
00:33:18
Speaker
It would be invalidating. It would be dismissive. It'd be undermining. You can imagine, you know, if someone was to say that to me, if I were experiencing what they were experiencing, yeah, I'm not sure how I would react.
00:33:32
Speaker
So, yeah, I had to be very clear on, yes, this understanding of the notion of acceptance and act whenever I was using act. It's a good effect with these young people.
00:33:45
Speaker
So, yeah, other words perhaps can make more sense to listeners. The idea ah about would you be willing? Would you be willing to have those very distressing questions?
00:33:59
Speaker
difficult voices in spite of our best efforts, medication doesn't seem to be addressing them. Would you be willing to have those voices and still commit to doing the stuff that matters to you? You know, like spending time with your family or and going out to see your favorite football team that, you know, you're very passionate about supporting or getting along to a concert.
00:34:21
Speaker
Yeah, the young people were often into music and wanted to go along to gigs, et cetera. So would you be willing to have the difficult experience and still do the stuff that matters to you?
00:34:33
Speaker
And that was a very different conversation, right? And it's a willing, I think, is probably ah better word in many contexts for helping people to understand what we're talking about here with a flexible mind, it's the ability to have difficult thoughts and feelings and still do the stuff that matters to you.
00:34:52
Speaker
It's this active, courageous willingness to allow those experiences to be there and to still do what matters. And in many cases, Chris, this idea of willingness may well be about being willing to be more selfful and to have conversations with others and let them know that you're no longer going to be treated like a doormat.
00:35:17
Speaker
Willingness
Self-Compassion and Balanced Living
00:35:18
Speaker
might well be about being willing to be more assertive in asserting your needs. That's psychological flexibility. That's the work. Right. And hopefully that helps listeners understand that it's not about being compliant.
00:35:34
Speaker
You know, it's not the key. In many instances, it's this courageous willingness to stand for what you truly believe in spite of the fact that other people are going to try to oppose it or resist it or make you feel small or make you feel bad for trying to exercise your sense of flexibility and the freedom to be more flexible.
00:35:59
Speaker
I like that you brought up courage because that is a ah big part of living that kind of life where you're taking care of yourself while you're serving others. And in spite of all the things that society and, you know, other people and and life in general is going to throw your way. that's very powerful to think of it that way, that setting boundaries takes courage.
00:36:28
Speaker
That snow takes courage. That living with anxiety takes courage. I think it was really beautifully put. And I was just reflecting it's similar to the idea of self-compassion that often people think of self-compassion and they think that they're going to let themselves off the hook. Yeah.
00:36:49
Speaker
they're not going to be working hard enough. and And think it's quite similar, isn't it? That actually the act of self-compassion could sometimes be, again, a very courageous act.
00:37:02
Speaker
Being able to take care of yourself, be kind to you and say no to others takes a lot of courage. Yeah, I think that's a really important point. And there's even the concept fear of compassion.
00:37:21
Speaker
Because you're really speaking to ah concern that many people will have. through their lives, they have perhaps had experiences where care has been used in manipulative ways, exploitive ways.
00:37:38
Speaker
And you we hear many stories of trauma and people's experience of difficult, challenging interpersonal relationships.
00:37:49
Speaker
So yeah people may have learned to be wary of allowing others to be too close and too intimate with them. And yeah, there can be fears around compassion relating to that.
00:38:04
Speaker
But there's also the fears that people have about being self-compassionate. That you were alluding to Emma, that idea of, well, gosh, look, I push myself hard and that has served me.
00:38:18
Speaker
That's allowed me to really achieve things. And it's been recognized. It's been reinforced. Gosh, I got a promotion whenever I worked around the clock.
00:38:28
Speaker
to get that project finished up. And, you know, so there's that kind of sense that, well, if I'm then self-compassionate, if I am being kind to myself, am I going to let myself off the hook? Are my standards going to slip?
00:38:45
Speaker
Right. And people's willingness, right. Speaking back about willingness, To lean to the fears and the concerns, the doubts, the uncertainties that they have about how this new relationship with themselves is going to unfold.
00:39:03
Speaker
That does take courage. That is the work, but it's potentially hugely rewarding work.
Intrinsic Values Redefining Productivity
00:39:10
Speaker
So I recognize the importance of self-compassion in my own life because I think I am ah reformed, recovering workaholic, if I'm very honest.
00:39:21
Speaker
I'm a recovering perfectionist. I know the My inner critic can run amok and I have to be very purposeful in trying to engage in practices, techniques, strategies that allow me to be more compassionate to myself. And I think my life is richer for that.
00:39:43
Speaker
No less productive for it. and But potentially productive in different ways. Do you know who is measuring the productivity around that? And I think that's a really important question for the listeners to to focus on and for me to unpack a little.
00:40:01
Speaker
Because there may be people looking at me thinking am not being ah as productive. yes Right. Because i have had revisit, reevaluate what is meaningful for me.
00:40:19
Speaker
What am i going to invest my time, energy and effort Right. And yeah, I've had a shift away from some of those more extrinsic indicators of success.
00:40:34
Speaker
And I have been on this journey to move much more towards some of those intrinsic indicators of success, being true to the values that I want to espouse, being and the person I wish to be in the world. And that involves spending more time with other people.
00:40:54
Speaker
And being there more for other people. Because I recognize that I have made huge sacrifices at times in my life to my detriment in my personal life that have allowed me to succeed in my professional life.
00:41:10
Speaker
So yeah, that idea about being more productive, arguably that could amount to being less productive in some forms and domains in our life so that we can be more productive in the domains of life that are intrinsically important to
Balancing Work and Personal Purpose
00:41:30
Speaker
us.
00:41:30
Speaker
So there can be a shift in the investment, time, energy, effort, and the sources of rewards that we're getting as a result of that. And I think we had a, it's just got me thinking about ah previous podcast we had on with two guests.
00:41:46
Speaker
That's the only time we've had two guests where we talk about is work worth it? And it was a philosopher and an organizational psychologist. And ah it was a great conversation. And the idea that sometimes You know, we work because we have to, not because it's purposeful in any way. It's just a means to an end.
00:42:08
Speaker
And sometimes we're working and it feels purposeful. And sometimes we feel more, you know, purposeful in other areas of our life. So I guess that's part of the flexibility that there isn't a recipe that will work for the rest of your life.
00:42:26
Speaker
You'll go through seasons where, know, perhaps your career needs more time and effort. And as long as that still feels purposeful and you can manage it, that's okay to do that. yes And then go through a different season where,
00:42:44
Speaker
You know, you're you've had a and enough of working and you want to spend more time with family and that work takes enough. I think there's that flexibility to sort of move with the times, with your stage in life, with where you're at physically and emotionally is really important too.
00:43:02
Speaker
And that speaks to that idea of strong intention, light attachment that you mentioned that I speak about in the book. Be strong in your intention to be true to your sense of purpose, which, by the way, can of evolve as we move through life.
00:43:16
Speaker
And be light in attaching to the idea that there is one single way of doing that. Right. So when it comes to our sense of purpose, there are multiple pathways.
00:43:30
Speaker
When it comes to our sense of purpose, no defeat is final. It's about dusting ourselves down and going again so that we can be true. And i think your point's a really nice one that sometimes our work and our purpose overlap, and that's often called our calling.
00:43:49
Speaker
You know, it's my calling. Right. And it it feels like very purposeful work. For other people, their work is a means to an end to sustain their ability to engage with their purpose in other domains of life.
00:44:03
Speaker
Elements of it are absolutely rewarding, important and enriching. But it's also about helping them to potentially finance their opportunities for travel.
00:44:14
Speaker
or getting out there and exploring or engaging in some adrenaline sport, whatever that might be.
Cultivating Purpose Through Interests and Activities
00:44:23
Speaker
Okay. So yeah, it's about perspective too and recognizing that purpose can find its way in different domains of our life.
00:44:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's important and it speaks to your, the importance of flexibility. And being nimble and adaptable to our life circumstances. Because I think this sense of purpose and work can get very rigid.
00:44:49
Speaker
Like, that you know, coming back to our topic of being high performers, you know, we can get very attached, you know, to what work, because we do it for so many hours. Like, it makes sense to get these stories about how important it should be.
00:45:06
Speaker
But that can trip us up. Another important point that I'd like to make is this idea about finding our purpose. And yeah that's out there. Simon Sinek in his book, you know, start with why, know, find your why. That's often used in the context of our purpose. And I think for many people that can just be ah frustrating and potentially unrewarding experience,
00:45:36
Speaker
that idea of oh i need to find my why need to find my purpose and for me purpose isn't found it's formed and the seeds of our purpose are there in our lives already, in those aspects of our lives that bring us a sense of vitality, a sense of buzz.
00:46:00
Speaker
And when we feel that, we have to listen to it and we have to find ways and we have to be pragmatic and flexible in finding ways to grow that sense of
Flexibility in Navigating Motivational Modes
00:46:12
Speaker
purpose.
00:46:12
Speaker
So that's what I mean by purpose is formed. And I hope that's a reassurance for people. Because you know we can all be left thinking, all right, I'll walk out the door here and I'll maybe trip over my purpose that's lying in the corridor.
00:46:29
Speaker
So, yeah, for me, I think the way I would put it is that purpose is more about cultivation than it is navigation. yeah Right? It's more Wendell Berry than Christopher Columbus.
00:46:41
Speaker
yeah well One of my favorite expressions is paths are made by walking. Yeah. Love for that. Some final thoughts. Yeah, I hope that the book it provides an opportunity for people to understand some of those motivational modes, right? The get, threat, and reset.
00:47:01
Speaker
And how flexibility, that ability to be anchored, willing, and empowered, helps us to navigate those different motivational modes.
Promoting Flexibility and Growth Techniques
00:47:11
Speaker
So us asking ourselves, well, what mode am I in?
00:47:15
Speaker
Is being in that mode conducive to me serving my sense of purpose? Is me remaining in this motivational mode going to be sustainable?
00:47:26
Speaker
Can I maintain this current pace? And if the answer to that is no, well then there's the potential for us to flexibly move into another motivational mode to use our flexibility skills for that purpose.
00:47:42
Speaker
And I hope that the book helps the reader to to see how they can do that. And there are evidence-based techniques throughout the book, little ways that people can build their flexibility. And I just wish the listeners well on their life journey and their ability to develop those flexibility skills so that they can be true to their sense of purpose too.
00:48:06
Speaker
Excellent. Well, the link to the book, both of your books, will be in the show notes for this episode on our website. But thank you so much, Ross. This has been very inspiring and very affirming, I must say. Yes, very.
Closing and Community Engagement
00:48:21
Speaker
And I just want to so of say again how wonderful your book is. And it is sort of packed with examples and you even share about your life story and that it's really moving and inspiring.
00:48:35
Speaker
So you take a look at it. Thanks both. It's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. to Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast.
00:48:47
Speaker
If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast at gmail.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Life's Dirty Little Secrets or on Facebook at Life's Dirty Little Secrets Podcast.
00:49:04
Speaker
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00:49:14
Speaker
See you then.