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Secret #36: The Secret Power of Disagreements with Dr. Yael Schonbrun
168 Plays8 months ago
In this episode of 'Life's Dirty Little Secrets,' hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry welcome back Dr. Yael Schonbrun, PhD, a clinical psychologist, writer, and faculty member at Brown University. Dr. Schonbrun discusses the surprising benefits of disagreements, emphasizing how differences can nourish relationships, foster growth, and help individuals thrive.
She explains the importance of mindset shifts, the role of conflict in couples and society, and shares strategies for turning disagreements into productive and positive experiences. The conversation also touches on personal anecdotes, the challenges of maintaining perspective, and the power of repair in relationships.
- Healthy conflict resolution strategies
- Adversarial collaboration in science
- Parental modeling of repairs
- Self compassion in mistakes
- Personal responsibility in conflicts - Importance of conflict repair
[02:12] The Secret Power of Disagreements
[04:06] Embracing Differences for Growth
[06:47] Healthy Conflict Resolution Strategies
[07:16] Adversarial Collaboration in Science
[11:17] The Elephant and the Blind Men Parable
[14:37] Perspective Taking vs. Perspective Giving
[27:06] The Joint Contributory System
[31:29] Understanding the Goggles Metaphor
[32:15] Personal Anecdote: Misinterpreting Intentions
[33:02] The Inescapable Nature of Our Perspectives
[33:35] Conflict in Relationships: A Humbling Experience
[36:28] The Importance of Sleep and Self-Care in Conflict Resolution
[42:33] The Power of Repair in Relationships
[44:35] Tips for Effective Repair
[49:59] The Importance of Conflict in Personal Growth
About Dr. Yael Schonbrun
Check out Dr. Schonbrun’s last visit on Life’s Dirty Little Secrets Podcast - Secret #7 Parental Guilt with Dr. Yael Schonbrun
Purchase Work Parent Drive by Dr. Yael Schonbrun on Amazon or at your local bookstore to gain valuable insights and strategies for navigating the tension between being a parent and working. https://www.amazon.com/Work-Parent-Thrive-Science-Backed-Strategies/dp/1611809657
Yael Schonbrun, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist, assistant professor at Brown University, co-host of Psychologists Off the Clock: A podcast about the science and practice of living well, and mother of three. Yael’s academic research explores the interaction between relationship problems and mental health conditions.
Follow Dr. Schonbrun on Linkedin
Tweet Dr. Schonbrun on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrYaelSchonbrun
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Transcript
Embracing Fallibility and Humanity
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out. Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human.
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:36
Speaker
This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets. Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington. And I'm Chris McCurry.
Guest Introduction: Yael Schonbrunn
00:00:48
Speaker
Today we are delighted to have yet again Yael Schonbrunn, PhD. She's a practicing clinical psychologist, writer, and faculty member at Brown University. She has written dozens of scientific articles and dozens of articles translating science for the popular press.
00:01:08
Speaker
Her writing has appeared in outlets, including The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Greater Good Science Center, Tricycle, Behavioral Scientists, Caveller, The Wise Brain Bulletin, Psychology Today, and Motherly. She also has a newsletter called Relational Riffs on Substack. There's a link to that on her website, and we will post a link to her website in the show notes.
00:01:37
Speaker
And we must mention her excellent book about how to thrive in working parenthood. It's called Work Parent Thrive. And it's fabulous and is available wherever books are sold. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. And I had such a fun time talking about my book with you guys on a past episodes. I hope people check that out because we had fun riffing on working parenthood together. We really did. We really did. Which we all are. Busy working parents.
Are Disagreements a Superpower?
00:02:06
Speaker
that's right generating as many as we can um so today our topic is the secret power of disagreements start us off with that interesting idea that this this idea that disagreements could be actually a superpower Yeah, I mean, I think that people often think about common ground being great. But when many people have a harder time appreciating is how valuable uncommon ground is. And I think it is because disagreement and differences between people can be uncomfortable. And yet at the same time, differences offer tremendous nourishment as individuals and relationally and societally. So I think
00:03:01
Speaker
For me, really appreciating that the discomfort can be the seat of growth and possibility really is a mindset shift that can be quite helpful for, for example, couples that are unhappy because it helps them to kind of shift how they feel. approach the differences that exist between them or the conflict that exists between them.
Strategic Approaches to Disagreements
00:03:21
Speaker
And I also think as a society, we need to sort of take zoom out and see that differences and tensions between people, between ideas, is actually far more powerful and positive than we often realize. And by shutting it down or approaching it in unhelpful ways, we actually kind of prevent ourselves from taking advantage of of what is unavoidable anyway. I mean, differences are going to exist. Tensions are going to exist. And so if we learn how to approach it strategically, then we can really take advantage of what is available as opposed to kind of getting knocked down by it. We need strategies for being effective in dealing with these disagreements so that they can actually turn into positives. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it does start with, I mean, the the sort of starting point is is the mindset
Yin-Yang in Relationships
00:04:10
Speaker
shift. That is a strategy of instead of being afraid of differences to see them as something that is natural. It's not positive or negative. It's just a part of any system. You can think about it.
00:04:20
Speaker
like the symbol of yin and yang, which I lean on a lot in my work Parent Thrive book, but it's just something I think about a lot in terms of any kind of relationship, whether it's the relationship between roles, relationship between individuals, relationship between groups, that those differences and the pressures that exist between different ideas, different people, different groups, contributes to a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts. And it is because we get you know different ideas kind of feeding each other. You can think about that like the two fish, right? They each have the color in the eye part of the other side and that's enriching. And they also hold each other in check and balance. And that's helpful when you have different ideas kind of pushing against each other from like, I'll give an example from the couples room. But if you have like a spender and a saver, right? A saver would only be thinking about the future and not be in the moment and have a lot of fun, but would be prepared for whatever calamities came down the road.
00:05:14
Speaker
A spender might really be spontaneous and joyful and have a lot of fun but not be able to think about the future but you get those differences together. And if they can take advantage of the pressure that they put on one another then they have some balance between enjoying today but also being prepared for tomorrow. And you can think about those kinds of differences in a lot of different realms but again whether it's between individuals or between groups of people or between ideas.
Mindset Shifts in Conflicts
00:05:41
Speaker
that the differences create, again, a hole that's greater than the sum of its parts. And so it's really a mindset shift to say differences and tensions aren't bad, they actually can be helpful, and they're just kind of a part of most systems. ah I was thinking as you were talking about you know how prevalent conflict is, that it is striking that despite it being so prevalent, we are relatively bad at it, or at least we struggle with it. We get really heated. And I guess that thinking about that shift in mindset, we almost also need to sort of start from the perspective that how we come into conflict.
00:06:20
Speaker
is important too, like how we're feeling, how we're experiencing that moment of disagreement. Yeah, because often we feel very defensive when somebody doesn't agree with us and that sets up the wrong mindset. Or we just avoid it altogether.
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, there's i I actually don't know who came up with this. It might have been John Gottman, it might have been somebody else, but some prominent marital researcher said at one point that couples either turn on one another, they turn away from one another, or they turn towards each other. So that's kind of what you're saying. is like Sometimes people are really bad at it because they like kind of start attacking each other. And then, Chris, you're saying sometimes we just shut it down and polarize and go to our separate corners and don't engage at all.
00:07:04
Speaker
And what healthy conflict looks like is you turn towards each other and you work through it together. You yeah you transform it from a me versus you to an us versus the problem.
Adversarial Collaboration and Understanding
00:07:16
Speaker
And actually in the newsletter that I released today, which was about adversarial collaboration, and this is a concept that was really expanded upon by Danny Kahneman, the recently deceased Nobel laureate who did a tremendous amount of work, but is less well known for this concept. But he he did a really phenomenal thing, I think, because the field of science can be very contentious. Scientists really lay into each other.
00:07:40
Speaker
And he really took issue with what he called angry science and said, you know, we need to take a different tact. And so we developed this concept of adversarial collaboration, which is really like taking the war between different theories and different hypothesis and saying, you know what, let's take two different lab labs who have different ideas, come together, develop a set of testable hypotheses, develop a shared methodology, and through that we can develop a better understanding of these larger complex truths. But what's interesting and and I think really important is that even when he would participate in, and now it's something that lots of scientific groups participate in,
00:08:20
Speaker
Even when people do it, they often don't come to
Challenges in Changing Perspectives
00:08:23
Speaker
consensus. They don't agree. But what they do do is they have deeper they end up with friendlier relationships. That's important. They end up with a sense of that the truths that they're seeking and you know trying to dig deep into are far more complicated than any one group can really articulate.
00:08:43
Speaker
and they end up with an opportunity to kind of open their own minds a little bit wider. right It doesn't mean that they their minds are totally changed, but they're open just a little bit wider, and that's important. But again, I think it's really interesting, and he says this, and you see this in in a lot of the studies that have done these adversarial collaborations, people don't change their minds. and I think that's part of Why, Emma, as you're saying, like people aren't very good at disagreements, because I think we expect, oh, if I disagree well or convince someone to think what I think, which actually is is rarely true because of this, it's very hard to change people's minds. So interesting, because I'm thinking backly that the reason why we struggle so much in conflict is because we come to it with the, I'm right, you're wrong.
00:09:29
Speaker
and that I will convince you and I'll do everything to convince you and I will not stop until that's happened. Instead of looking at that being or part of the problem, but also highly unlikely.
Ongoing Conflicts and Viewpoints
00:09:43
Speaker
Like we're not going to come out of this where you go, you're brilliant. I'm totally convinced by your idea. i lot And the more you push for your idea, the less the other person's listening and how to shift that mindset into, okay, we're coming from two different you know perspectives. Our intention here is to deepen our understanding of each other's perspective and see a way out where both are true, but that's quite
00:10:10
Speaker
Phenomenal and it's a huge shift if I think of it in the couples work that I do it's it's you know the Gottman's talk about 69% being sort of perpetual issues you know unresolved conflict that will never be resolved in a relationship but I think of it in every way right not just in the couple if at work siblings we were talking about siblings last night you know that every relationship, if you come to a disagreement from the place of wanting to convince or feeling superior or that you're better than, in some ways, you will lose that argument or lose the possibility that can come from that conversation.
The Elephant Parable in Conflict
00:10:53
Speaker
Right. Right. And even if you win, you kind of lose, right? Because it feels so bad for the other person to have been coerced into coming over to your side. So there is often resentment. And so, yeah, trying to convince people that you're right and they're wrong is... it rarely effective, but it's often the reflex that we have because we feel like our truth is really true. So I actually think about this a lot in terms of this parable of the elephant and the blind men. Do you guys know this Buddhist parable? Oh, no. No, I love it.
00:11:27
Speaker
so So the story is there's a bunch of blind men who live in a village and they've never encountered an elephant before. And they hear this creature called an elephant has come to town. So they want to go and sort of perceive what it is for themselves. So they come upon the elephant and the elephant is huge. So each blind man is sort of touching a different part of the elephant. The one touching the side says, oh, it's a wall. The one touching the ear says, oh, it's a fan. The one touching the test says, oh, it's a spear.
00:11:55
Speaker
And as each one hears the other perceive their truth, they get more and more frustrated. That's not what it is. It's not a spirit. It's a wall. That's not what it is. It's not a flag. It's a fan. It's a spear. And they start to feel really angry with one another because if somebody tells you that your truth is wrong, it feels really offensive, right, to be told that you're wrong about your own truth.
00:12:17
Speaker
And so the take-home message there is that we and you know Buddhism is brilliant, right? Long before there was modern science in the laboratory, they were coming upon these really the profound truths. and And this profound truth is that we all sort of live inside our own perceptual reality, but our perceptual reality feels so true to us that it almost seems unbelievable that someone could experience something so different.
00:12:43
Speaker
And it really feels threatening when somebody tells us that our truth is not true or is only part of the truth.
Emotions and Curiosity in Conflicts
00:12:50
Speaker
So we do get very defensive. And I think recognizing that our perceptual reality is quite limited helps us to kind of manually override that defensiveness, that sort of itch to say, no, like my truth is the true one. And to be more curious and willing to consider and and to be like intellectually humble,
00:13:13
Speaker
in our consideration of other people's experience, other people's truths. And as we open up to that, it creates so much more opportunity for us to share in that project of understanding as opposed to commit ourselves to trying to convince someone where we're never going to actually succeed.
00:13:30
Speaker
wow Yes, and yet it's so difficult. I'm just thinking that it's so hard. I mean, that's so powerful that the the idea that opposite reality is limited and it's so true, right? We only have one version and how defensive we get to protect that version of reality.
00:13:50
Speaker
and how unwilling we are sometimes to see a different way because being wrong feels so painful and hurtful. And just like you were saying, it's you know it's quite jarring to have our reality questioned.
00:14:07
Speaker
So why yes, why is it that that is it why is it that some people seem to be able to do this better than others? There are some people that can do disagreements in a less defensive, flooded way.
00:14:24
Speaker
I mean, I do think part of it is temperament. and And I think you're pointing to a huge part of why temperament is so important because emotions can really hijack our ability to perspective take. And I will say, I mean, there's interesting research on perspective taking. And I think this is an important point, too, that I'll just mention for a second, which is that we have this idea
Managing Conflict with Gentle Communication
00:14:47
Speaker
that I can step into your shoes. You should be able to step into mine. But the reality is, again,
00:14:51
Speaker
because our perceptual experience is so limited that you can't know what it's like to sit in my skin. And I actually can't know what it's like to sit in your skin. I can take a guess, but we're actually pretty bad at perspective taking because we're doing it from inside of our own experience.
00:15:06
Speaker
So what is better, what is much more effective is to do perspective giving. So you tell me what your perspective is and I have to be open to it. Okay, so that was a little bit of an aside, but what can really make that process harder is even when you're telling me your perspective is that my emotions can can get in the way. So for example, if you're telling me your perspective and you're part of a political party that I oppose, you know my tribal instincts to protect my my group might really,
00:15:35
Speaker
sort of aroused and I may feel either attacked or or sort of under threat in some way and that's going to really make it hard for whatever message you have to get across. And so I do think that, you know, part of it is to kind of notice when our emotions are clouding our ability to perceive in an open way. That's the responsibility of the receiver.
00:15:58
Speaker
and the responsibility of the speaker, of the of the one delivering the message, is to do it in a way that tries as much as as one can to like be tentative. Like, you know, here's here's what I think about this idea. I know not everybody agrees. Or here's you know what I think, how I interpret the science. but you know, science is always evolving and learning new things. So like to be tentative, because interestingly, when we're tentative and sort of a little bit lighter about sharing a view, it is a little bit easier for other people to receive it without defensiveness, without their emotions getting aroused and sort of clouding how they're interpreting incoming information.
Reframing Conflict for Growth
00:16:40
Speaker
So there's a number of strategies like that.
00:16:43
Speaker
that can help us not avoid conflict, but sort of move through conflict as opposed to getting stuck in it. And I think that's maybe the central point that we're talking about, because we're not talking about avoiding conflict. We're talking about entering into disagreement in a way that feels productive and healthy and not sticky and and you know gross.
00:17:03
Speaker
Absolutely. and i guess so so There's so much in that. the The first piece in terms of the mindset shift is seeing conflict as not about being right and wrong and not trying to convince the other person. It's almost like once we know that there's a disagreement or a difference in view, we need to change our mindset and realize that actually trying to fight my ground will result in you know, further disagreement and you know potentially a ah serious rift and pain and no resolution. So it's almost like before we even begin is thinking about how conflict, that the real power of disagreement comes with having a better understanding of the other perspective and what that can do to open up your world and the way you see things and potentially lead to, you know, if we're thinking in science, you know, further
00:17:59
Speaker
Discovery or an even greater idea and perspective and then so that feels like a really important first step like seeing the power of disagreement vs the need to convince.
00:18:15
Speaker
Right. That's exactly right. I mean, if you if you go back to the elephant example and you can think about this in politics and science, but also in your close relationships, like if you feel the wall and somebody else feels the tusk and you're like, no, it's a wall, then you're limited to just experiencing the wall. But if you're like, oh, you you're experiencing a tusk, what's that like and where do you have to stand to touch that?
00:18:39
Speaker
then you have an opportunity not only to learn about what the other person experienc is experiencing, but also to expand your sense of what is an elephant, right? To sort of understand these big complicated truths in a more nuanced and holistic way. Having that disagreement actually gives us that power.
Different Approaches in Parenting
00:18:56
Speaker
I mean, you could think about one other, I think, area that this comes up a lot in the couples therapy room with patients that I see is in parenting. So you have one parent who's really dedicated to like warmth and affirmation. And that's so great. That's so wonderful. And then the other parent is really dedicated to discipline and limit setting. And that's so great. Either on its own is is great. But like together, that's so much more complete. That's such the
00:19:21
Speaker
whole parenting package of what we want to give our kids, which is like a whole lot of love and a whole lot of limits. Like that is really good parenting. And so when we lean into those differences, those disagreements, that conflict, like we have an opportunity to get a lot more expansive and rich in our experience, and our knowledge in our in our access to these complex truths. So, you know, we do ourselves a favor and we do the world a favor when we do that mindset shift on conflict.
00:19:47
Speaker
is is
Mental Health and Opposing Views
00:19:48
Speaker
my staunch belief, and you know maybe it sounds naive, but I really do believe it. Well, there is the the added benefit of just not having to live with so much stress if you're constantly defending your position in a way that isn't helpful. And it becomes a vicious cycle where I feel defensive, so I become more stressed, and then I become even more rigid in my thinking. My thoughts become fact, not you know ideas and and then i and then I get into fight or flight mode and that's that's not a great way to live.
00:20:27
Speaker
ah hundred percent you're You're bringing up such an important point, and this came through in an interview that I did, and I i talked about it a little bit in the newsletter that I released today. So there's these two guys, a super conservative Mormon guy who was raised in Utah, and a super liberal guy who was a professor in you in a liberal university in upstate New York.
Personal Biases and Conflict Resolution
00:20:49
Speaker
got together to write this book and it's called, you're not as crazy as I thought, but you're still wrong. And they dive into all these political issues that they totally disagree about. And their goal was not to achieve agreement in this book. It's a great book. Their goal was to deepen their understanding of people who have entirely different worldviews.
00:21:10
Speaker
and One thing that I think was so interesting because I asked them, you know what you what would you say is the point? Because like you're preaching to the choir to me, I think it's great. But like what would you say to somebody who said, you know I don't really want to talk to somebody that I totally disagree with, that I would have conflict with on any given day. and They said, you know there's a lot of reasons, but one is like really a public health argument, which is that walking around,
00:21:33
Speaker
thinking that all of these, like half of America is despicable and half of America is, ah you know, out to destroy all that is good and half of America is is like a scary embodiment of the worst of humanity is like a terrible way to feel.
00:21:49
Speaker
It's scary, it's depressing, it feels very dark and bleak. And so beginning to see the goodness even in people who really view the world differently, and this is you know from a political viewpoint, but I think that similar truths apply in close relationships too, exactly as you're saying, Chris, which is like It just doesn't feel good to dehumanize others. you know On the one hand, it feels like protective if people really are psychopaths. We want to sort of protect ourselves from them, but most people are not. Most people have a lot of goodness and most people have a lot of nuance. So even if we staunchly disagree about one thing or a few things, we probably have a lot in common on in other areas, even even though we disagree.
From Extremism to Collaborative Conflict
00:22:33
Speaker
And it feels better to recognize that if it doesn't make the world feel as dark and bleak and hopeless. Yeah. And tribal. Totally. Everybody taking sides and becoming more and more defensive and reactive to each other. And yes, I love that. I love looking at the strengths in being able to take this new mindset. How beautiful in a way. I love that the parable of the yeah elephant is phenomenal because having that, putting yourself in that situation where, you know, you could be arguing about what you're feeling and this, the, the, your experience and really recognizing that somebody would have a completely, um how pointless that argument is and how you can get more and more heated. But really we're talking about two different worlds and it feels yeah, pretty pointless. Like we don't get out of this alive potentially right and very painful.
00:23:32
Speaker
right And I think you're pointing to this, Emma, and I think, Chris, this might have been a part of what you were saying, but like when we really allow ourselves to reflexively engage in conflict in a way that ah does lend us to being more defensive, we end up getting more extreme in our position. right that That's like a part of the
Taking Responsibility in Conflicts
00:23:49
Speaker
process. so by leaning in and seeing the value of conflict as opposed to digging in and sort of fighting the battle in an unhealthy sort of adversarial way. That mindset shift allows us to use differences to ward off extremism, to like come together to be collaborators as opposed to becoming more polarized. That that is something that that mindset shift allows us to do. So it allows us to become less extreme. It allows us to grow our own perspective.
00:24:17
Speaker
And it allows us to use our discomfort to learn about ourselves, about others, and about complex truths. So there's like a lot of learning opportunity. So there's so much benefit to approaching conflict in a way where we see it as valuable as opposed to try to solve it and try to tamp it down, try to avoid it, or try to you know fight for our right to be correct. Yeah, so true. So so much growth in that and yet so difficult.
Blame and Character in Conflicts
00:24:46
Speaker
I know, you know, we really do get stuck in that idea that, you know, the more somebody disagrees, the more polarized because the more we try and fight our corner. And I often talk to couples and they'll say that they felt cornered by their partner, literally cornered because the opinion felt so strong and so aggressive. But often we don't reflect on what we are doing that results in our partner or our sibling or our friend or our colleague at work.
00:25:16
Speaker
reacting like that. like you know the the The finger is always pointing away from us. And that's such a powerless position because often people can't change.
00:25:28
Speaker
or we can't make people change. People can change, but they may not choose to change. And we're much stronger in our sort of power when we focus on, you know, what's the my part? How am I having this conversation, which is influencing my partner or this other person to react in that way? What can I do differently? And that's where the real power lies.
Understanding Contributions in Conflicts
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah I think you're speaking to the fundamental attribution error, which is, you know, it's sort of like the way that we magnify how others bad behavior is due to their bad habits or their bad you know personality.
00:26:08
Speaker
Whereas our own bad behavior is like, you know, because we are tired or because we are too stressed out, you sort of minimize it and attribute it to to things that are not so enduring about us. Whereas we magnify and really make the behavior of others about their character traits that are, that are unchangeable. And then we feel really powerless.
00:26:29
Speaker
So I do think that just recognizing that we have a tendency to to minimize our own contributions, magnify other people's contributions, and can help us to re-empower ourselves. like It's sort of uncomfortable on the one hand to recognize like, oh, I contribute too.
00:26:45
Speaker
On the other hand, it's it's very empowering because that as you're saying, like we can do something about that, whereas we have less power to make somebody else change their behavior or reconsider their contribution. The other thing that I was thinking as you were talking, Emma, was about there's this terrific book called Difficult Conversations that's written by a team of Harvard researchers in the business school.
00:27:06
Speaker
And they have this thing called the joint contributory system where they recommend that people map their contributions. Everybody has a contribution, but to sort of do it from this like, okay, I can see what the other, it's very easy for me to see how the other person contributed, but to like get curious, okay, how did I feed into that? And to look at it from like this joint contributory system where like everybody's feeding into this dynamic,
00:27:28
Speaker
But if you sort of have that mentality, it this necessarily means like you're a part of that dynamic too. And so if you kind of map it out, again, it's very natural to see what other people are doing. But to get curious, okay, in what way am I feeding into this? And in fact, what they recommend is when you start a conversation with somebody that you're in a conflict with,
00:27:47
Speaker
to say, okay, well, I can recognize that I had in part in this, right? That you almost start there because it it reduces people's defenses because it there then doesn't feel like you're coming after them in an accusatory way. You're saying, we both had a role in this and I'm owning my part, which helps people to feel like it's us versus the problem as opposed to me attacking
Starting Conflict Discussions Gently
00:28:07
Speaker
you. And so if you do start with my contribution, it actually feels a lot more inviting for the other person to own their part as well. Not a guarantee, but more inviting.
00:28:17
Speaker
That's, that's so wonderful because it's true. And, and actually some of the Gottman work, they talk about this, the gentle startup, like starting a conversation gently, like going, not going to someone, but instead starting it from very much that first person about, you know, reflecting on how you're feeling, how you're seeing things versus is the more the default that often we have, which is saying how they see things and how they're wrong, really coming at a conversation in a much gentler way. The Gautman say, I think it reduces it by 70%. They love their numbers, but that's that's whether it's 70%. I don't know how they measure that, but it's very powerful. Like if you have somebody who feels like they're coming at you, you will immediately become defensive.
00:29:07
Speaker
and starting a conversation from a much gentler stance of, you know, this is how I see it. Like you said earlier, right? This is just one way. It's my way, but it's, you know, I would love to share how I see this. It's an invitation for there to be more than one version of reality.
00:29:26
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. i think And I think what you just said is is really so core, which is that when we're in conflict, we have two different versions of reality almost all the time. like i get an am i don't know ah Chris, I don't know if you see couples, but most of the time- just there as well.
Creating Shared Realities
00:29:46
Speaker
It gets dangerously close to couples therapy sometimes. yeah Yeah, for sure. But you'll get like two people that come into the office and they'll share something that happened in the past week. And it's almost as if like they were in different times and places entirely, even though it was like the exact same situation. It's very much the case that we each remember, experience here, feel like we said,
00:30:12
Speaker
things and our partner experienced something totally different. it's It's really bizarre and it will feel to them like the other person is lying, just like in the parable of the blind man and the elephant. It feels like the other person is making stuff up, but they're not. It's just that their reality is so different. Their perceptual reality is so different. And so the goal in in healthy conflicts is to sort of come in and say, you know, I have my reality. My guess is you have a different reality. I'd love it if we could create a shared reality that is encompasses and sort of is able to make space for the fact that I had a really different experience than you did. And to be curious enough to try to understand what your reality is come and and to have you to feel like you're making an effort to understand what my reality is and in that process come to a shared reality.
ACT Metaphor and Conflict Perception
00:31:04
Speaker
And I think that kind of an understanding conversation is not a quote unquote solution. Like you're not going to convince anyone, but to totally change their mind. That's actually highly unlikely. But what you can do is like come a little bit closer together and create this shared experience it and and a broader truth that encompasses what each of you is experiencing. In commitment therapy, we have a wonderful metaphor about wearing goggles.
00:31:33
Speaker
and looking at the world through lenses that are distorting things. And everybody's got goggles on. And even if we can't get them off, if we can recognize being like, oh, yeah, okay, maybe it's the goggles, that might slow us down a little bit, allow us to do more of that, you know, gentle start or approach things with a little more humility.
Personal Stories of Stress in Conflict
00:31:59
Speaker
that, you know, maybe maybe I'm seeing this in a way that's that's distorted by my own history or, you know, my how I feel it today, you know, my mood is influencing my reality.
00:32:14
Speaker
hundred percent Yeah, and i'll I'll just share like a personal anecdote, which is like, I've had a really stressful week this week. And my husband was coming home ah home to take care of the kids so that I could get on this call. And he said something probably innocuous, but I like heard it as an attack. And I said to him,
00:32:32
Speaker
That felt like an attack and he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And it was like this moment where I was like, okay, this is you know art come to life and I have an opportunity. So I said, I think maybe I'm just really anxious and stressed out and I misheard you, but it really felt like an attack and he was like, okay, that makes sense and it wasn't, right? So I do this for a living and I should be able to catch it. But I was so sure that he said a dig that was you know right to the heart and he was totally confused.
00:33:00
Speaker
And this is what I teach people all day. So there's no removing the glasses permanently. We all have them. They're wired into our brains. We cannot remove them, but we can do is grow our awareness of them and catch it and say, okay, like, you know, there's a fog on the glasses today that I can't remove, but I can notice that the fog is there and I can recognize that it's really impacting how information is coming into my brain and is getting processed.
00:33:28
Speaker
And that awareness really can help me engage in ways that are more value aligned.
Repair and Apology in Relationships
00:33:33
Speaker
It's so humbling, isn't it, to be a couple of therapists and to have these arguments. I am it's moments of can't believe it sitting there and thinking, but I am right.
00:33:45
Speaker
yeah so i do you right Exactly. Exactly. I know what I'm doing. I know what you're doing, but by the way. But yeah, I love.
00:33:55
Speaker
I love to hear that. Yeah. And, um, it is incredibly humbling how, you know, to recognize that we do have goggles and how hard it is to recognize that it is, you know, my perspective as opposed to my right or, you know, my the way the world really is, it is incredibly hard sometimes to notice that that's where we're stuck and to do whatever it takes, be it a walk around, you know, the, the park or, you know, a few breaths or yeah, sometimes people need a glass of wine. Not that that's what I would condone, but you know, um, whatever it takes to notice that actually I'm stuck, I'm stuck in this perspective.
00:34:41
Speaker
And it's really painful to feel like an an adversary to my partner, my work colleague. I mean, how many people come to see me because they're having issues at work and it's, it's conflict. It's conflict. It's incredibly painful to be in a conflict situation with another human.
00:34:59
Speaker
It's painful because of how we respond to it, the meaning we attribute to it, that it's a bad thing. You know, often people think of conflict being a bad sign in relationships, but it is very personal.
When to Engage in Conflict Discussions
00:35:12
Speaker
And so being able to have that perspective and help ourselves sort of soften in our version of the world and be open, that really that first, that mindset shift, that ability to do that is you know going to transform our relationships, but it is incredibly challenging at times. and Sometimes I think you you know this this whole idea that you shouldn't go to bed having argued, apparently it was Saint Paul who said it.
00:35:45
Speaker
I was listening to a podcast that said the same thing. Yeah. Apparently St. Paul said, don't go to bed wrathful. And I remember growing up, my grandmother used to say, you know, you can't go to bed without solving the argument. So obviously she was reading St. Paul, which doesn't surprise me. But, and, and there's this pressure that and you need to sort it out. That only adds to this sort of agitation, right? And instead maybe you need to go to bed, you know, just sort of.
00:36:15
Speaker
I don't know, shake hands if you have to. If you can't do anything better, go to bed, sleep on it, you know have a run in the morning, and then try again.
Childhood Experiences and Conflict Management
00:36:23
Speaker
like This stance is so important.
00:36:26
Speaker
I think that's 100% true. i mean and And one of the things that we know is that when we're sleep deprived, when we're hungry, when we're not feeling well, those are times that it's harder for us to interpret other people accurately and therefore we're at higher risk for conflict. So actually getting a good night's sleep reduces the risk for ongoing conflict. like Sometimes we need to first and foremost take care of our bodies so that we can bring our emotions down.
00:36:49
Speaker
And I mean, that that sort of lends itself to like a really important tip for conflict, which is just know your tells, right? Like am I in a place where I can have healthy productive conflict or am I physically feeling or emotionally feeling in a way that is not gonna allow me to be curious, allow me to have a gentle startup, allow me to make space for two different perspectives. And if you recognize that, then you know what do you need to do to sort of get your body and your mind into a place where you can be more in that place to have a productive and and difficult conversation, because as you're saying, it is really difficult.
00:37:27
Speaker
And you know one other thing that we say in acceptance and commitment therapy is we hurt where we care, right? So like conflicts really are painful because we care about relationships. We care about what other people think of us. We care about whatever the thing is that we're having a conflict. Like sometimes it's an idea, you know it's an ideology, we care about it. So it does feel like it brings up a lot of emotion and it's because we care, but it's also why we shouldn't just shut it down entirely.
00:37:55
Speaker
And it's also why we shouldn't just enter into it without thinking about like, you know, are we prepared to be productive and thoughtful about how we engage with another person? So it's don't turn away, don't turn on, turn towards, but, you know, when are you ready to turn towards? What are your signs that you're in a good place to do that? I would imagine that a lot of how we approach conflict was instilled in us growing up in our families.
Repair and Growth in Relationships
00:38:21
Speaker
For sure. And if, if,
00:38:24
Speaker
If parents could help their children, because as we were talking about before, sibling conflicts are ubiquitous. if Boy, we could we could create a ah generation of people who could do conflict well, do disagreements well.
00:38:42
Speaker
ah you know i was actually I'm not all the way through it, so take this recommendation with a grain of salt, but it's amazing so far. I'm reading this book called The Power of Discord. It's written by Ed Tronic and Claudia Golden. Ed Tronic is the researcher who developed the still-faced experiment. If you guys are familiar with this, it's the experiment where the mother comes in, she engages with her baby, and then she turns away, she turns back, and she's got a totally flat, disengaged face.
00:39:10
Speaker
This is very distressing for babies. They'll, you know, screech. They'll try to get the mother's attention. It's really, it's like painful to watch these videos. If you look it up, you, you'll, you you've like your heartstrings get pulled by seeing these babies so distressed that the mother just looks impassive and then the mother reengages and and they repair.
00:39:29
Speaker
So one of the take home messages of this research for a long time was that it's really bad for kids for the mother to be disengaged. But Edtronic says that's not actually the take home. The take home is that these misses, that these ruptures in the relationship happen constantly. Something like 70% of interactions with our baby are like ruptures. But in, quote unquote, good enough parenting,
00:39:52
Speaker
We rupture, we repair, we repeat that mothers and you know fathers and caretakers in general are constantly missing cues because there's just too many cues to to take in. And that's actually okay. the The power is in the repair and the growing together and teaching our babies to tolerate.
00:40:10
Speaker
the miss and then learn how to reengage. And actually, babies are are wired to learn that very quickly, how to reengage. And in fact, you know the baby trying to get their parents' attention is one of the great things that babies learn really early on. So it's not the miss that's the problem, it's the learning and growing that we need to instill in our kids. And I i think that is the mindset that we're we're advocating in this conversation, which is, you know so don't see the myths or the rupture as the problem. See it as a part of the process, the learning and growing and reconnecting and developing deeper bonds process. Because that is how we learn, that is how we grow as relational beings.
Conflict as Practice for Relational Skills
00:40:53
Speaker
It's an opportunity.
00:40:55
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. And a really powerful one, though not a comfortable one. ah well Definitely not comfortable. But you know, whether that's in a therapeutic relationship where there's a therapeutic rupture that can be a source of you know increased understanding and growth between therapist and client, or between parent and child, or between siblings, or spouses. or There's just tons of opportunities if we can see them that way. It's like yippee. Yeah. So at the end of this episode, everyone will be like, when can I have my next conflict? I sometimes will say to my couples that like like we'll talk about some recent conflict and we'll you know have a skill that we practice and a learning opportunity. and Then I assign them homework and I say, and if you have a conflict this week, this is you can now see it as like a great opportunity to practice something different. It doesn't have to be something scary. like It's a practice opportunity. But I actually think that we all can see it that way rather than as something to be afraid of to see it as like a way to grow. like How do we want to do this differently than the last time? What do we want to learn
Repair and Strengthening Bonds
00:42:02
Speaker
from it? How do we want to learn about
00:42:03
Speaker
are a relationship partner, how do we want to learn about ourselves? What does it tell us about what's important to us? What does it tell us about what we know or what we don't know? you know i I think that mindset shift is, is ah I know this sounds like idealistic, but like I really encourage listeners to try this out to say, okay, this conflict is uncomfortable. What can I learn here? How can I grow? How can i how can this relationship grow? yeah Well, we don't learn anything in our comfort zone.
00:42:30
Speaker
Exactly. exactly when when i When I learned about repair, I think I learned about it in my graduate studies. I and never really understood repair until I was studying psychology, which is indicative of a lot of things. so but and I was amazed that you can actually repair.
00:42:52
Speaker
like You can have a really bad conversation and then you can make it better. like You don't have to get it right the first time. like The power of repair was was, yeah, it was so liberating. like You don't have to get it
Hesitation in Seeking Forgiveness
00:43:07
Speaker
right all the time. You don't have to make sure you don't upset people. You don't have to walk on eggshells. You can actually have these difficult conversations and then do a redo. like Chris and I talk about redos.
00:43:19
Speaker
or yeah if necessary, you can repair. There's a new book coming out called The Laws of Connection by David Robson, who you should have on the podcast because he's wonderful. And the book is absolutely terrific, but it highlights this research that I actually hadn't been familiar with in the chapter on forgiveness, which is that one of the reasons that people don't ask for forgiveness is that they don't think that they will be forgiven.
00:43:43
Speaker
And that's a mistake because people do want to repair. And when we don't ask for forgiveness, we're not giving ourselves the opportunity, right? the There's certainly a chance that somebody won't want to repair. But most of the time, people do want to repair. And because we're so afraid of our bid for connection reconnection being rejected that we don't offer the apology and and that opportunity just goes away because we don't pursue it. And so i think this fear that we can't repair is really pervasive and it is one of the things that is an important myth to us that if we.
00:44:17
Speaker
apologize, there's a really good chance that we can repair. Because that that is a part of what humans are
Steps for Repairing Relationships
00:44:22
Speaker
wired to do. We're we're wired to like have relationships, have these hiccups, but be able to kind of come back together and and build back stronger. But I just thought, just before we wrap up, what are some tips? What should repair look like? Maybe we can start wrapping up and thinking about, what what do we when we think of it, I think that's so true, that we fear that we're not going to get the repair. We're not going to be forgiven or it will lead to further argument like, ah yeah, you're right, you were so awful. What are some of the sort of tips? How do we do repair? What does repair even look like? it doesn't Is it always a sorry?
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, some people really detest. I'm sorry. And some people really want it. So I don't. OK, so let me just start. I don't think that there's like exactly a recipe, but there are some really important ingredients to consider. So one is understanding what the hurt person's experience is like and letting them know what you understand and seeking deeper understanding because a part of what we want when we felt when we feel that we've been hurt is for somebody to understand what our experience is like. And that has a a couple of purposes. One is that being understood helps us to connect emotionally. And it also helps us to feel protected because if somebody really understood why their behavior or their action or or their words was so painful, if they deeply understand it,
00:45:44
Speaker
then the risk of it happening again is going to be lower, right? Because they they sort of can internalize, oh, that's what that that's what how I did made you feel. And then, okay, so it's it's deepening understanding and expressing that deepening understanding. And then it's making a commitment to not do it again and then committing to a set of behaviors. So for example, I do a lot of affairs work. So post betrayal, I will have people go through this letter writing protocol and the person who engaged in the affair will write an amends letter where they really document like, here's how I understand why I did what I did. Like I'm understanding what I like, what motivated me, and why I did the behavior that is really hard to forgive.
00:46:28
Speaker
I'm understanding, and and they articulate this in the letter, I'm understanding how it impacted you in this deep way and the trauma that it's left you with. And I am really sorry for the pain that I've caused, and you know especially given how much I understand it hurts me too to see the damage that I've caused. And I'm committing to never doing it again, and my commitment is going to be codified in a set of behaviors. i'm going to not travel for work or not communicate with attractive partners at all via phone and I will stop drinking or whatever the thing is. Sometimes it's related to the affair. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's like, I'm going to bring you a cup of tea every morning just to let you know that I'm thinking about what I did and recommitting to our relationship. So I mean, I think those are like three important components, like the deepening understanding
00:47:18
Speaker
the committing to not doing it again, and then really operationalizing that commitment in a way that the other person can see through behavior. So I think those are some of the things, but again, there's not like a recipe. So I do think at the end of the day, it's important to talk to your partner and say, you know, I i really can understand that you've been hurt. i I want to repair. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. Here are some ideas that I have, but also to invite them to say what would be meaningful to them. And I guess it's repair not just in relationships and sort of partnerships, but also with our children or with colleagues at work. And, you know, perhaps we don't have to, it won't be as deep, but it's still important.
00:47:59
Speaker
I actually think that it's really important for parents to repair with their kids. And I think we don't emphasize that enough, in part because we as parents do sometimes hurt our kids. like It's a close relationship, so of course. That's the other thing. It's like, you're going to hurt people that you're in close relationship with because guess what? You're human. So self-compassion, give yourself grace, but then like own it because that's how relationships get stronger.
Repairing Relationships with Children
00:48:23
Speaker
So you're not bad if you hurt someone.
00:48:26
Speaker
you're human, but also you can do something with it that is very powerful, which is you can strengthen the relationship by making an apology and by learning and growing and the learning and growing and the apology nicely go together. And when you do it with your kids, you're modeling for them what it's like to be in a close relationship where you make mistakes because you're human and you're modeling what it looks like to take responsibility and to learn and grow in a close relationship. Yeah, it's pretty magical. The The, one of the joys in inverted commas of repairing with a kid is they really help you to practice the non-defensive stance. As in, if I go and I apologize to my 13 year old, like, you know, I was a bit angry. I did get a bit loud. Yeah, mom, you did.
00:49:09
Speaker
moment of breath. It was loud. It was loud. It was really loud. Like you were really shouting my face. but sure like yeah That moment of, hmm, this is why I'm doing this repair. I don't want to get back into the argument. Do you know why I was shouting?
00:49:27
Speaker
that um you in your ze not sort of yeah So if you really don't like me doing that, then you shouldn't be doing what you were doing. hook Up you go. Yes, totally. Yeah, those moments are are great teachers. They're a good learning opportunity.
00:49:49
Speaker
lovely It is wonderful. Well, thank you.
Conflict for Growth and Humility
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah. My goodness. We could definitely continue this conversation. Yeah. I have so much more to ask you i think because it is such an important, I mean, we we've touched on it in a previous conversation we had with another couples.
00:50:07
Speaker
counselor where you know this this fear of conflict, that it's a sign of a you know of doom and gloom in a relationship. But like you mentioned, temperament is such a big factor. like If you're naturally quite a volatile person, you will have more conflict with everyone.
00:50:24
Speaker
Like it just will happen. Versus if you're more of an avoidant, then you'll have less conflict, but then you might have other issues. So it's also just recognizing that it might not be the other person. It might just be you. You're just a bit fiery. And so, you know, par for your journey. That's what's the common denominator. It's important to say exactly. like it's Yeah, let's be humble. but So yes, being able to have conversations about conflict and the importance of conflict, that feels like a real dirty little secret that often couples, parents you know ah come to to see people like ourselves because there is conflict and because they find it so painful. And often we don't think about the painful part as the way we're doing conflict, not conflict itself.
00:51:11
Speaker
like how we're conducting conflict and the fact that we don't have this mindset as to what can I get out of this conversation, that'll be really important to meaningful and deepen my relationship.
00:51:22
Speaker
i Yeah, I mean, I think if I was to say like, I think there's two dirty little secrets about conflict. One is that conflict is very positive and powerful and in learning and growing. And the second is that we can get better at it. And that the mindset shift of seeing the power and the the goodness embedded in conflict actually helps us to grow better at it, grow up more skillful in doing it. Yeah, so true. And maybe the third dirty little secret is that a conflict is very personal, as in we need to think about our part a lot. And that that really is a key piece to managing conflict. Doing conflict better is taking responsibility for our part in the conflict.
Episode Conclusion and Farewell
00:52:07
Speaker
And the sooner we do that, the better we get at it, actually. It's hard. I like being right. Let's be honest. ah So I put my hand up. That's probably why I went into couples therapy, because I needed a lot of learning in this area.
00:52:23
Speaker
But yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you, Yael. Thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's such a treat to talk to you guys again. Thank you so much for the invitation to be here. It's been wonderful. It's our pleasure. Thank you.