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Secret #44: Parental Burnout with Debbie Sorensen
150 Plays3 months ago
In this episode of Life's Dirty Little Secrets, hosts Chris McCurry and Emma Waddington welcome back clinical psychologist Debbie Sorensen to discuss the growing issue of parental burnout.
Sorensen, an expert on chronic stress and burnout, elaborates on the overwhelming pressures faced by modern parents and how societal expectations, economic pressures, and lack of support contribute to their exhaustion. The conversation also touches on perfectionism, micro stressors, and the importance of self-compassion and support networks. They provide practical advice, emphasizing the importance of asking for help, reducing expectations, and ensuring parental well-being.
Highlights:
- Parental Burnout
- Mental Health
- Support Systems For Parents
- Perfectionism And Its Impact On Parenting
- Optimal Frustration In Child Development
- Self-care For Parents
View extended shownotes here:
https://www.lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast.com/episodes/secret-44-parental-burnout-with-debbie-sorensen
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Transcript
Society's Infallibility Illusion
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even
The Fear of Blending In
00:00:19
Speaker
ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear and we must then live in fear that we will be found out. Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is life's dirty little secrets.
Introducing Debbie Sorensen
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello.
00:00:42
Speaker
This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris McCurry. And I'm Emma Waddington, and today I am so excited to have Debbie Sorensen back on the podcast with us. We had an earlier episode on burnout with her, and today we're going to talk about the very important topic of parental burnout.
00:01:02
Speaker
I will give you a little bit of information about Debbie, although she's already been, but she is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Denver, who has a PhD from Harvard University and works with adults with chronic stress and burnout. She's also co-host of the Fabulous Psychologists of the Club podcast and author of Act for Burnout, Recharge, Reconnect, and Transform Burnout with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And I'd really recommend You read that if you're experiencing burnout and if you, after having heard the conversation today, you think this could be useful because it really is a terrific book. And she's also a co-author of the book, Act Daily Journal, Get Unstuck, and Live Fully with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Welcome, Debbie. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me me back on your terrific show. I'm happy to be here.
00:01:53
Speaker
So, so excited. So yes, we're delighted to get to talk about parental burnout because it is such a big thing.
Parental Burnout as a Public Concern
00:02:01
Speaker
And recently, and I think it was August, the Surgeon General in the US talked about the importance of parental burnout and the epidemic that we're seeing in parental mental health.
00:02:14
Speaker
So it's finally out there, something that I think we've all known that we're all burning out. It's relentless and too difficult ah to parent in this day and age. So I thought perhaps we could start with talking about what is parental burnout and how did we get here? How are we in this very difficult place?
00:02:36
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. and I think I'll maybe start with the second part of that, which is about how did we get here?
Parenting Challenges Today
00:02:43
Speaker
Because I think, and we could go into what is it, you know, and how is it unique related to other forms of burnout? But I like to say that we're in this perfect storm of parental stress in recent years. I think parenting is hard work and it's demanding and it's relentless. You know, you never really get much time off from it. Maybe you can go on a vacation or maybe you share custody and you get some breaks. But it's just this ongoing job that takes a lot of work. And, you know, I think in recent years, parenting demands have been higher than they used to be in previous generations. As an example, my mom was one of six children and they lived on an Air Force base. And
00:03:28
Speaker
They talk about how the kids would just leave and be gone all day. They'd be either at school or off going to movies and playing with their friends and my grandma. Because I would always say, how did she raise six kids? That sounds so hard. And well, she was just not as hands on. And I think now most parents are pretty hands on and a lot of parents are working. We have a lot of pressure. There's a lot out there about how to be an engaged parent, how to parent the right way. I'm using air quotes here, right? Because There's this idea that you know you should be doing this parenting technique. You should be providing enriching activities. And I think we just live in a chronically stressful world in general. And a lot of parents are in this situation where they're not getting the kind of support.
00:04:10
Speaker
that they need, whether it's practical hands-on support in the form of childcare or, you know, neighbor involvement or, you know, that takes a village kind of approach to parenting. They're not getting that practical support, but often also not getting enough emotional support, and enough acknowledgement of how hard it is. You know, you're supposed to be doing all these things and it's supposed to be I don't know, easy, effortless. There's a lot of myths, I think, about what parenting is supposed to be like. So that's the that's my thought on how did we get here. i do I really do think there's just a number of factors contributing to make parenting a lot of work.
00:04:53
Speaker
I think the first piece is, if I think of the parenting, like you said, your grandmother and even my parents, like I asked them, you know, if they'd ever reflected on how they were as parents and they said, no. And it just felt so foreign because our generation is constantly reflecting. I think Chris and I did some research and there was like 60,000 parenting books.
00:05:16
Speaker
So there is this idea that has developed over the last couple of decades that we don't know how to parent really well. We don't have the confidence and the skills to do it for ourselves. We need to question our parenting. We need to think about what we're doing and why. Like there's a lot of emphasis on the quality of our parenting and the impact that it can have on our children. That creates a lot of anxiety for us. And you pair that with We're working longer hours. We're actually parenting much more than our parents have a parent in terms of hours as well. And there's just only so many hours in the days. Put that together and it's just an impossible situation where you have these really high expectations.
00:06:00
Speaker
fewer hours. And then the resources piece that you mentioned, I think it's true. We're much lonelier as parents than our parents were. We tend to parent in silos. We don't tend to reach out to our community because our community tends to not be family. We tend to move away from family. And I remember reading that actual loneliness is a big piece around parental burnout because we do feel incredibly lonely as parents because There's this message that we should be able to do it. And like my son said to me this morning, he said to me, you know, you signed up to this. Like, it's your problem. Don't talk to me about burnout. And I guess that's sort of, we internalize that. That, you know, it's true. We signed up to this. So should we should just make it work. What's wrong with us that we can't? Yeah.
00:06:52
Speaker
And I also think that we, yeah, we did sign up for it. Most of us care deeply about it, right? It's really important to us. And that doesn't mean it's going to be easy or effortless. And in fact, sometimes maybe there's more stress because we care and so we're more engaged. I also think we are living in this context where there's a lot of people have economic pressure and a lot of parents have a sense of uncertainty about their children's future. I think we Many of us feel like the world, is it it doesn't feel quite as stable. We're not as sure if our kid's future is going to be as secure as maybe, you know, it was decades ago. And I think that adds to this pressure as well. It's like, well, I have to make sure that my kids are going to be okay by parenting them away.
00:07:40
Speaker
that's going to ensure their well-being and that they're, you know, they're striving. And so I think that adds to the pressure as well. It's these kind of cultural factors.
Pressure to Ensure Children's Success
00:07:53
Speaker
So, yeah, perfect storm. very one Really is. And it is true, that piece around, I had this talk yesterday, I'm telling you about toxic overachievement in this idea idea that we're stuck in this place where we're so worried about our children getting the jobs that they need to get and getting ahead in life. Like this message is that it's so hard and so uncertain and that we just need to help them really succeed and that puts extra pressure on us. and
00:08:25
Speaker
It seems like the parents are spending a lot more time on academic and extracurricular pursuits as well than, you know, our parents ever it did. That's for sure. And that takes away from time to connect and relax and play and hang out, which actually reduces, I think, the quality and the experience of parenting. Like it becomes much more of a chore and a demand.
00:08:49
Speaker
and to use Chris's famous words that I always use and I love, that it becomes even more depleting the parenting because we have this additional pressure that it's on us to help our children get ahead in life. That if we don't do it, they may fail and then that's our fault.
00:09:08
Speaker
I can give a personal example of that because I think my family, if we're over scheduled, we all feel it and we're all miserable. And so we cut back, you know, we kind of swing too far that direction and we cut back. And I remember one time I was in a cutback phase where I had reduced the number of activities my kids were doing. This was years ago, they were younger.
00:09:29
Speaker
And I felt good about that in terms of my experience and my kids' well-being and my family's well-being. And then I heard about another kid going to, I don't know, some sort of astronaut camp or something like this. And I had this pang of, oh no, are my kids going to be behind because they're not doing that. And I quickly caught myself getting pulled into that pressure, that expectation. But my instinct was, oh no, my kids are going to be behind. I better sign them up for this. Whatever it was. I can't even remember exactly what activity it was. and And I think that there's constantly that feeling of, you know, if we don't run ourselves ragged putting them in all these activities or
00:10:10
Speaker
having all these hands on enriching experiences with them. They're going to get behind and just think about the stress that puts on both the kid and the parent. You know, it's not really very healthy for anyone. A hundred per percent. I think there's an erosion of trust in institutions, be it the schools or well mostly the schools, I think. But people, parents just don't feel like if they leave it up to coaches and teachers and other adults in the child's life that they're going to really get what they need, that they have to backfill it with all this other stuff. And that's sad. And it's true that schools are under a lot of stress and particularly during the pandemic, a lot of kids fell behind and didn didn't get what they needed
Filling Educational Gaps
00:10:57
Speaker
and are still struggling to get back. But there just seems to be this added pressure on the part of the family to
00:11:05
Speaker
have to do more because the rest of society is not stepping up as they think they should. That's right, it falls to the families to take up the extra slack and at least it feels that way. Right, so it's yeah getting the tutors and you know here in the Seattle area we have kids going to Saturday Chinese school so that they can you know get learn Chinese and get extra math and things because you know that's going to be their ticket to get into Stanford or you know some of the high-end institutions later on. I don't know. My wife and I decided that we weren't going to to do a lot of that and you know we put our son through
00:11:51
Speaker
several different musical instruments, none of which he particularly took to and suffered through his practicing. and But we weren't going to fight him over it either, you know, because my philosophy was always, you know, I would rather preserve my relationship than have him be really good at piano.
00:12:09
Speaker
ah hundred percent
Impact of Community Pressure
00:12:10
Speaker
And the pressure comes from all directions. Like we're hearing it as parents from our community. And like you said, Debbie, you see others doing things and that feels like, you know, you should be doing the same. Like there's this status thing that you don't want to drop. You don't want a child to drop in their status. If they don't, I was talking about, you know, we are a big football family, not me personally, but my sons and my husband. And we play, there's a lot of football.
00:12:39
Speaker
And it's very competitive and i noticed that you know if my son. Doesn't play in the position that he wants to if he's on the starting bench i feel it even though i know all the science i feel it and there's that ping of sort of quarter so that goes that's a drop in status.
00:12:59
Speaker
He's no longer you know up there with the w rest. And I have to remind myself that this is not that important. It may feel really important to him, but it's not that important. And I have to do the work to remind myself that the messaging you know doesn't just come from other parents and the community. It also comes from our children and their peers who are telling them, what are you doing? my son came up to me and said to me that he wants to start tuition. And I said, well, tuition is for those that are failing. Like I had to do tuition because I was struggling with maths. And why do you need to do tuition? You're doing fine. And he said, no, we have to do tuition. Everybody does tuition. That means that you stay above the rest.
00:13:47
Speaker
And he's giving me that message that you know he wants it to keep up that status piece to keep up on the status so it's coming to parents and from all angles really this the squeeze on our time and our resources and our emotional well.
00:14:05
Speaker
I think that, well, for one thing, this speaks to how, as parents, we care. And it's one of the hardest things in the world when we see our kids go through something tough. And even though we know they have to, it's part of learning. It's
Understanding Burnout Symptoms
00:14:18
Speaker
part of growing. and You know, sometimes they're going to be on the bench. They're not going to make the team. They're going to get a bad grade. It's hard. And we have to hold that as parents to be able to show up effectively. It's necessary.
00:14:30
Speaker
And it adds to that weight of parenting because burnout always happens in the context of chronic stress. And part of that is like the emotional part of it. You know, if you're just like, ah, who cares? You know, my kids has, you know, a bad grade in one of their classes and they're upset about it, but I don't care. You know, it's like no one really wants to be that kind of parent. But I think that's, you know, it's like we have to make room for that when our kid doesn't make the team.
00:14:59
Speaker
we feel that, or they make a mistake, or they're they're left out from their friends. And I think that's part of what I think about as a parent is like holding those feelings, that it's very normal to feel that way, and there's room for acceptance of that. And it's part of what makes parenting really hard. Sometimes I think, oh, I would take that experience on for them if I could, because I don't i want to spare them from that pain. But I know rationally, they need to have that. They need to learn that they can deal with that.
00:15:29
Speaker
So, yeah yeah. And I think one kind of something else that just popped to mind when we're you were talking about that, Emma, is that there's some different risk factors for parental burnout. We could talk ah more about some of those, but one of them is perfectionism. And when a parent feels like they have to be the best parent ever they have to handle every situation perfectly they have to you know the kid has to be. So well parented that their kids are not gonna have any problems that just adds fuel to the fire with burnout.
00:16:03
Speaker
And I think that those 60,000 parenting books you were talking about contributes to this because they make money by implying that you should parent in this way or that way. And there's all these different parenting approaches. And some of them go so far as to say, oh, you know, if you don't you know, if you don't attach properly to your kid by doing X, Y, Z, you know, your kid's going to have problems for life and it's not helpful. It makes you feel like you have to do it right. And that is that's perfectionism that contributes to burnout. And absent. Yeah. Certainly.
00:16:39
Speaker
Really is tremendous, isn't it? And as you're saying that, that perfectionism that contributes to burnout everywhere and not just in parenting. Like if we hold ourselves and our our expectations of ourselves too tightly, we will burn out. It's the unrealistic expectations. And sometimes I touching on that thinking about when we put expectations on our kids that go over and above their developmental ability. like When I hear parents ah sending their three-year-olds to football training three times a week and then get really frustrated because they're having a tantrum in the car or they won't follow the coach's instructions, I think, don't do that to yourself.
00:17:24
Speaker
Don't do it. It's too hard. he Don't do that to the child. And don't do that to the child. It's both. It's when that, I think that, and that's part of that perfectionist demand that we place on ourselves. But sometimes we need to be able to stop and reflect and say, this is just simply not working. It's just too hard because it's too hard.
00:17:48
Speaker
in In my clinical practice, I had more conversations than I can count with parents about letting the child take homework back to school that wasn't perfect because the parents would sit with the child and and basically do the homework with them until every math problem was right or every sentence was grammatical, every word spelled correctly.
00:18:16
Speaker
And I called it polishing the homework until you can see yourself in it. But you know, I used to say, you know, the teacher needs to know what the students aren't getting. And if all the homework comes back perfectly, the teacher is going to assume that all the kids, you know, understand that this particular concept or, you know, can do this.
00:18:38
Speaker
math formula and we'll like move on to the next thing and maybe they don't understand it. Maybe they need to, you know, go in with less than perfect homework. But oh man, I've had so many, ah you know, parents just couldn't do that. I mean, it was painful.
00:18:53
Speaker
But yeah, my colleague Emily Edlin, who I do the podcast with, and she has a terrific book out on autonomy, supportive parenting, and just this idea of how parents are really not doing their kids any favors when they take on everything for the child and the child doesn't you learn to be independent and have autonomy and do things themselves. And obviously, there's a degree of this, you know, a child who's three needs more help with certain tasks than a child who's 12 and so on. So, you know, it has to be developmentally appropriate. But that type of, you know, when the parent jumps in and does all the homework for the child, it doesn't help them.
00:19:35
Speaker
learn the skills. It doesn't teach them autonomy. And it really does them a disservice in the long term. Absolutely. And it stresses the parents out. And Emily will always say, you know, there's so much talk about the youth mental health crisis. And it's a serious thing, but people often don't acknowledge that parental mental health matters a lot for that. And when the parents are running themselves ragged and when the parents are exhausted and burned out and stressed and anxious, you know, that affects the kids.
00:20:04
Speaker
and the parents too, obviously, that matters, but the parents themselves, but it also does, it's hard to be a good parent when you yourself are depleted.
00:20:15
Speaker
so Should I say a little bit? I didn't really answer that other part of your question. Should I say a little bit about what is parental burnout since we we kind of skipped over that part? Yeah, I mean, so you know, how do we know if we're in the grips of it or sliding into it? You know, what are the telltale signs that the telltale signs? Yeah.
00:20:37
Speaker
So I think, again, it always happens in the con context of chronic stress. And burnout is always something that happens in a stressful role. And parental burnout is getting more recent attention because I think originally people were really looking at burnout in a job setting or professional setting.
00:20:54
Speaker
And what we're realizing, first of all, parenting is work, and it is can be a chronically stressful role, chronic being the key word there. And so with burnout in general, it's usually just that state of exhaustion and depletion and disconnection that happens over the course of time. And so at work, it just kind of feels like, oh, I don't care about this job anymore. I'm really struggling. I'm exhausted. i'm you know, disconnected, I don't feel as effective at it. And it's the same thing with parental burnout. It's when you just, you feel like you don't have the energy to keep doing it anymore. The chronic stress gets to the point where you're just depleted, you know, where you're feeling like you're not very good at it, you're disengaged. And I think
00:21:41
Speaker
Sometimes it's a little bit tricky because almost every parent at some point feels exhausted, you know, you're sleep deprived. I think it's pretty normal for parents to be exhausted, especially when their kids are little, but really throughout the parenting role. But I think with it when we're really talking about burnout, it's when it's gotten to an extreme, you just feel like you don't have anything, any energy to give to this role anymore.
00:22:04
Speaker
And it can sometimes get to the point where parents are can end up being irritable with their kids, short tempered with their kids, neglectful, you know, on their phone all day, just not rising to the occasion of doing the tasks involved. So when it's extreme,
00:22:22
Speaker
you know, at the extreme end, it can be quite serious, actually. But I think that a lot of people also experience a lower level of it. And again, it's pretty normal to have days where you're just, ugh, I have to get up with these kids again, you know, it just feels really hard. But I think that usually once we're talking about burnout, it's beyond that level. And certainly, you know, Chris, you mentioned the pandemic earlier, I think, to me, that was like, height of parental burnout was when parents and kids were home 24-7 with each other. There was no break for most parents, at least for you know for a period of time when kids were home doing virtual school and everybody was in lockdown mode together. And I think almost every parent I know was just absolutely exhausted. And that to me is kind of the reminder of how bad it can get.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, certainly during the pandemic, not only did you have to be a parent, but you also had to be a teacher and try to keep your child focused on what was going on. Plus your own work that you probably had to do remotely if you could, if you were fortunate enough to be able to do that.
Balancing to Avoid Burnout
00:23:33
Speaker
But as I'm hearing you talk, I'm i've just got this sort of nagging thing about I don't want our listeners to feel like This is yet another thing they have to like stress about, like, oh, I can't have parental burnout because that's bad. So it's going to... Yeah. It's like that that you know thing people have been talking about recently about the whole wellness self-care culture, you know and how people are getting stressed over you know my self-care and my wellness. And it's like, we're talking about good enough parenting.
00:24:06
Speaker
you know We're talking about being able to roll with things and maintain a good relationship as opposed to this is yet another thing that I have to be vigilant about.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a good point. And actually, my hope is that if you catch yourself feeling like you're slipping into parental burnout, that can actually be a really helpful thing because what you could do then is make some changes, right? You can get some support. You can maybe ease some of the pressure on yourself. You can ask yourself some hard questions around, you know, what am I What's going on here that I'm feeling this way and how can I get to a better place? I actually think that with burnout in general, sometimes a silver lining is that it gets people to change some things they probably should have in the first place, right? Get more support.
00:24:57
Speaker
try to ease the pressure on themselves, make some a sort of change to their life that's going to help them. And I think that can be true with parental burnout. It might be that you need more help, you need more support, you need more resources. you know And i I think if you look at it that way, it's definitely not something, I don't think we need to be scared of this, I think.
00:25:17
Speaker
you know, most of the time we can catch ourselves getting too stressed out earlier and think about what to do. So for instance, the example of having too many activities. For me, for my family, we find ourselves running ragged and that's, okay, we signed up for too much. We we have too much on our schedule. We need to ease up so we can have some time to just chill. And sometimes we have to sort of get to that point and then we ease up. And it's the easing up part that really can transform it.
00:25:48
Speaker
And I guess that piece that that is really important is to be listening to your body and your experience as opposed to the external messages. Like if it's feeling like it too much, it's probably too much. You don't have to check in with others. I think you can talk to others about how you're feeling, but I think as parents, because we have so much insecurity about whether we're doing a good enough job, we start talking to others. We get this mixed sort of messages. It could can create more anxiety. Just trust that.
00:26:22
Speaker
You're doing enough. And if you're getting too, feeling too overwhelmed and stretched, it's probably because you're doing too much and it's okay to take your foot off the accelerator pedal and, you know, take some, you know, time off. I remember one evening I was just, and I think I talked about it with Emily when Emily was on our podcast. One evening I remember coming home and I'm like, I've had enough. And I lay on the couch and I said to the kids, I'm just watching TV. You guys are going to put yourselves to bed.
00:26:52
Speaker
and shock horror, they're like, what are you talking about? I said, no, mommy is off duty tonight. And they said, okay, so off they went. And then they came down and said, are you serious? Are you not coming to read us a book or sing us a song or do anything? I'm like, nope, mommy's not doing anything. And it took, of course, a long time, but they did it eventually.
00:27:18
Speaker
And I had to hold on, like you were saying, those feelings. I felt so guilty. Then I got frustrated. I was like, why can't you just do it? Give me a break. I thought I told you I need a break. Anyway, I had to sit with all of that, but eventually they did it.
00:27:34
Speaker
It was really lovely. I just lay there and just relaxed and took a break. But to do that, obviously, I had to navigate feelings of guilt and what about parent and my daughter crying saying, but I can't sleep alone. I'm like, I believe in you. I think you've got this. You'll be okay. She did it. Then the next day, I remember she was proud. She knew I fell asleep alone.
00:27:58
Speaker
So that was brilliant, like going on the autonomy piece, but it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable initially, but for greater a good. and Yeah, I love that example. And actually, earlier, Chris mentioned the good enough parent. And I think the original idea of the good enough parent was from Winnicott way back in the day. And it wasn't so much like, oh, just do the minimum. That's not what it is. What it is that you as a parent have to occasionally disappoint your child and maybe
00:28:31
Speaker
by being the good enough parent. like You're not telling your kids, I'm out of here, I'm done parenting. you know You're just saying, I need a night off. They were originally a little bit disappointed by that. like What do you mean? You always tuck us in. You always do all these good night things for us. But you disappointed them a little bit, but it's actually necessary as part of their development to do that occasionally, to put them in the role of this part this attachment figure isn't gonna always be there 100% attending to my needs. And it teaches them to be autonomous. It teaches them they can do it. Your daughter learns she can go to bed and she'll be okay. And that's an actually really, important that's an important thing. And I think in this high pressure parenting world, sometimes we forget that, that's actually helpful and healthy. Yeah.
00:29:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, Winnicott also talked about providing your child with optimal frustration so that they can, they can learn that they're tougher than they think they are and more capable than they think they are. And yeah, it is painful initially.
00:29:34
Speaker
But one of the best things that I'd heard over the years and something that I recommended to parents often was to take time for yourself, but to make it scheduled so that you're not just fleeing from a high stress situation.
00:29:52
Speaker
but you're taking a couple hours a week as your time and it could be Thursday evening from seven to nine or it could be, you know, Monday afternoon or whatever, but that's a regular, expectable time. So this is mom's time or this is dad's time and everybody just gets used to it and it's not a big deal anymore. But if you're doing it more PRN or scatter shot,
00:30:21
Speaker
then it seems like you're always dealing with that but but you're supposed to do this now and you feel like you're wrenching yourself away from the family situation as opposed to nope seven o'clock thursday you know see you at nine.
00:30:35
Speaker
And this is where support is so necessary because I think one ah another risk factor for you know for parental burnout is when people don't have partner support or they don't have community support or other kinds of support like that if people feel like it's all on them and they don't have the resources because you know I think sometimes, especially when they're really little, we might feel guilty if we're not there for them. you know It just feels like you can't even possibly take that two hours on a Thursday night. But you know for your own well-being as a parent, that might be really important to have time when you're not it responsible for everyone's well-being.
00:31:16
Speaker
And yeah, so true and so important. And I think that parental guilt that keeps us hooked, we just need to get better at sitting with that discomfort of, you know, feeling like a bad parent because we're taking a break or feeling guilty she because our kids are not happy because kids don't usually wave you off with a smile.
00:31:40
Speaker
You know, they don't go, great mom, go and rest and have a great time. It's usually a protest, you know? And so we have to allow for them to not be happy and do it anyway. And that's the part that's really difficult, I think, or, you know, other things I was thinking, you know, one of the concepts from your book that I really loved Debbie is these micro stressors. Like it's not the big things, it's the little things.
00:32:07
Speaker
And as parents for example our kid forgot that lunchbox suddenly we have to go and do the lunchbox delivery or you know our kid is unhappy with something going on at school suddenly we need to go meet them the teacher right it's all these little micro stresses that create more and more demands on us as parents and that you know if we have to.
00:32:30
Speaker
Say no, we feel tremendous guilt. I should be you know
When to Let Children Handle Independence
00:32:35
Speaker
stepping up. How are they going to, you know, what are they going to have for lunch or whatever it might be that creates that anxiety and how we navigate the saying no, because a like, you know, Chris was just saying, it's actually quite good for them.
00:32:48
Speaker
Do you have these situations and learn that they can handle it and actually create stress for us as parents which is not good for us or them ultimately. And it's important to. yeah I was just gonna say yeah I think you know. It's a judgment call to say whether or not you're going to bring the child's lunch to them that day, you know, and as opposed to, you know, like, well, let them go hungry and maybe tomorrow they'll remember their lunch. I think you're probably, parent probably should meet with your house for it. But I think one of the issues in these micro stresses is they become like diving boards for going into
00:33:26
Speaker
worries about like my child forgot their lunch today he's never gonna get a good job if you can't remember his lunch you know my you know my teacher his teacher needs to talk to me he's he's bound for prison certainly you know and some parents and i know at least i do.
00:33:42
Speaker
I extrapolate on all these little things and turn them into big things. And then I'm tough time traveling into a horrible future, you know, where, you know, my son is like doing terribly and I'm, it's all my fault. You know, child of parent of child psychologist arrested for heinous crime, you know, but, but but I think if, if we can like notice that we're going into that place of catastrophizing and whatever and kind of gently bring ourselves back. That can be a really helpful thing to do in these situations and to recognize that, as I used to tell families, if having problems is a problem, you have a big problem because family life is full of problems.
00:34:28
Speaker
and you got to deal with them, you got to take care of them. If you can solve them, and sometimes it's not a problem, it's a condition, and you just have to cope with that. But, you know, yeah, these things happen in the life of a family. Yeah. There's a lot of perspective taking that is necessary, I think, over the course of time as a parent, because there all are all those little frustrations You know, it's hard to stay patient when you're trying to get out the door and no one can find their socks and you ran out of paper towels and all those little pebbles in the shoe that we're talking about the micro stressors, you know, and I think
00:35:07
Speaker
It used to really drive me crazy when I had young kids and people would kind of minimize that. People would be like, oh, you know, someday my kids are grown and someday you're going to miss that. I think it's really true. You know, the days are long and the years are short. But it's also the case that it's very normal to be frustrated by that and to be impatient in those moments and to be have those moments where you you lose it because you've told everyone to brush their teeth 50 times and no one has budged. And you know I think we need to also be accepting that there are moments when this is just really hard and frustrating yeah yeah and stressful. And to have an emotional reaction to that, you know all these micro stressors over the course of time, I think there's a lot of room here for self compassion. This is a hard job.
00:35:56
Speaker
you know And I mean, I feel like my patience has been, I'm not a ridiculously impatient person in general, but I think I realized as a parent was the first time I really had to work on my patience because things just don't happen in the timeline. I want them to, you know, and it's frustrating. Right. But in how we convey that frustration and that impatience and whatever, you know, how how we convey that matters and ah
00:36:27
Speaker
I think it's important for our our kids to know when they're pushing our buttons. And I used to tell my son, I'm representing society right now. And if what you're doing is making me annoyed, that and it's probably going to make other people annoyed when you do that very thing. So me, you might might might want to think about that.
00:36:45
Speaker
And he would roll his eyes and you know, it's like some child psychologists. But yeah, I mean, it's like, this is important feedback. And cause somebody else out there in the world may not be quite so so kind in how they deliver that. feedback We have feelings and we can talk about our feelings and That's powerful stuff. It's very powerful. It's very important to do. Was it Kelly Wilson who said, I pity the kids with perfect parents? Yes. Yeah. I keep thinking about that. I carry that with me as in my parenting journey, like if Kelly Wilson said it, it must be okay. Like I can be imperfect, perfectly imperfect as they say, but thank goodness for do-overs. He saved me.
00:37:36
Speaker
well You know, i I did developmental psychology originally for graduate school. My PhD was in developmental psychology and my advisor, Jerry Kagan was like a world renowned developmental psychologist. And he would always say the least happy adults are the ones who had these like perfect childhoods, you know, where they were so happy and well, you know, they, because then they're in the reality of adulthood seems pretty dreary compared to that. And so you're actually, I mean, I'm not sure if that's actually true, but I think that there's something to this where it's like, you know, we kind of have to
00:38:13
Speaker
do them the favor of a few challenges in childhood, you know? Yeah. I mean, kids grow up not knowing how to deal with conflict appropriately or how to have a, you know, a good argument i think we had and to or deal with disappointment.
00:38:27
Speaker
Was it Jonathan Shippey we had on growing up with couple with his parents who never argued? And then he had his first argument with his wife and he thought it was a disaster. It was the end of the world. Because he hadn't seen that you know arguments are okay and that we can figure it out and it can make us stronger and it can you know help us understand each other. And there's so much about temperament that comes into this too, of course, with our children. you know Some of us are more fiery.
00:38:56
Speaker
you know express things with more Augusto. Therefore, we need to learn to navigate different people, different conversations, different needs. and you know Our journey with parents or as parents is a great training ground. Yeah. Different kids, i mean I think this is a really important point around when you think about a lot of the messaging around parenting and do this and you'll have this kind of kid. And I think we all have more than one child, right? I just have the one. Oh, you have one. Okay. Yeah. So if you have more than one, you know that you can be real, you know, probably pretty much the same parent. I mean, probably maybe not exactly, but your kids are going to be very different from each other and you learn really quickly.
00:39:49
Speaker
you know, you have to sort of tailor your parenting to this individual child because it's not like a one size fits all model. And so, and I actually find that a little bit reassuring as a parent, the fact that my two children are each different, their personalities are different, what they need from me is different. They've these differences have changed over the course of development, but they've kind of persisted. And it's like, it's not that my The way I interact with them doesn't matter, but it takes a little bit of pressure off. Like if I parent this way, I'm going to end up with this kind of kid because that's just simply not true. There are temperamental factors and personality factors and these kinds of things. So, you know.
00:40:31
Speaker
we do our And there are outside influences, you know, what some people call the second family, you know, whether it's peers or other adults or coaches or teachers, their influence, you know, gets, you know, more and more as the kids get older and go out into the world.
External Influences on Children
00:40:49
Speaker
Not that we are ever not important, but, you know, it's not entirely up to us to mold our children into who they're going to be. That's right. Yeah.
00:40:59
Speaker
Yes. Thank goodness. Well, it's time for me to say in the interest of time, how shall we wrap up? Would it be helpful for me to say a few kind of final just like recommendations? and That would be great. Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, absolutely. it's my I love this ability to sort of our takeaways because we've took comfort a lot.
00:41:24
Speaker
Okay. yeah I would just really recommend any parent who is feeling that stress in an intense way, who has some indicators that the stress is starting to get to them, maybe starting to feel that fatigue and exhaustion of burnout starting to creep in, which is to, you know, we talked about just being aware of that and thinking, okay, where can I ease the pressure on myself? But I actually think the most important thing you can do is to reach out for support.
00:41:51
Speaker
and to talk to someone. I mean, talk to another parent. I think sometimes it looks like all the other parents have it figured out and we don't, but you need to share that load with somebody. It could be a professional, it could be another parent, just somebody in your life who's supportive. And again,
00:42:09
Speaker
Getting that practical support of not feeling like you have to do everything yourself is really important, but also more importantly, perhaps, is getting emotional support. Just remembering that you're not alone in this, that this is a hard job, and that's why I love the Surgeon General's recent statement about this is that it's so validating. It's like yeah parents who are stressed out knowing that they're not alone. And so remember you're not alone and try to be kind to yourself and compassionate toward yourself and get support. And in that, I guess it's ah just thinking about the support that you look for. Find other parents.
00:42:46
Speaker
that are open about their struggles because there are people that are not comfortable talking about it. So be careful who you talk to. I feel protective of my sort of yeah feeling. you know Don't talk to the parents who are going to tell you that you know you should be stressing about college applications. Talk to the parents that go, I get it. I'm there too.
00:43:09
Speaker
Not the ones that are going to be competitive or that are going to be unsupportive. You need the ones you can laugh with about how ridiculous this whole thing is. The ones who can admit that they aren't perfect either. They don't have this parenting thing figured out. The ones who really understand it. Those are your people. You need to find them. I totally agree. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So important. So important.
00:43:36
Speaker
And I guess also just the what we were talking about in terms of starting to trust yourself. like As parents, I think the message is that you know we need to be doing more and this good enough parenting has been lost. but Just trust yourself. If it's feeling hard, it probably is hard. It's too much. And you know talking to others will help you perhaps put things in perspective. but Yeah, start to gain that confidence in yourself that it's you know, it is hard. And giving yourself permission to put your own well being somewhere in there in your priorities, right? Like it doesn't have to always be the top priority. You know, sometimes we have to put our kids well being first or whatever. But I think sometimes parents is like so far down on the list because there's so much to do.
00:44:26
Speaker
There are so many tasks with raising kids and all the domestic work and the job you probably have and that kind of thing. It's like, but your well-being matters too. And giving yourself permission for that to be okay. Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of truth to secure your own oxygen mask first before offering assistance to others. But yeah, it's it's going to fluctuate depending on the circumstances, which again is why I think having something scheduled is is really helpful. But you know it's also the idea that just because something is hard doesn't mean it's wrong. Sometimes things are just hard. But again, if if you can avoid or notice and pull yourself back from the catastrophizing when things get hard, you know i I think that can be very helpful in terms of one's resilience and
00:45:20
Speaker
you know, everybody who listens to this podcast has heard me say that my favorite definition of resilience is struggling. Well, that yes, we're struggling and we're struggling. Well, you know, again, not perfectly, but you know, we have a little refrigerator magnet that says, of course I'm a good parent. They're all alive. Aren't they? So like I like that. Have a loose criteria. Lower the bar. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:48
Speaker
This has been brilliant. This has been marvelous. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for this opportunity. As a parent myself, I always find it incredibly validating to speak to others who recognize that parental burnout is a thing and that we can do something about it. And it doesn't mean we're a bad parent. It doesn't mean that we're doing it wrong. It is hard. And sometimes, like Chris says, it it just is hard. And sometimes it doesn't have to be this hard.
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah, both are true at once as well. Well, thank you so much Debbie for coming back. This has been fantastic. oh Well, thank you both again for having me on. It's nice to see you and talk to you. And I mean, this is, I think a really important thing for people to be talking about. So I'm happy to have the opportunity. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right. but Bye-bye.
00:46:40
Speaker
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00:47:01
Speaker
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