Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Secret #43: Who Am I? Navigating Identity in Young Men with Nike Oruh
186 Plays4 months ago
In this episode of Life's Dirty Little Secrets, hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry are joined by Nike Oruh, a therapeutic specialist and clinical lead counselor at Edinburgh Napier University.
The discussion delves into the struggles young men face today, focusing on their search for purpose, the influence of social media, gender role shifts, and the need for safe spaces to express emotions.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of emotional vocabulary, positive role models, and community support systems to help young men navigate the complexities of modern masculinity and emotional well-being.
Highlights:
- Understanding Young Men's Behavior
- Anger and Emotion
- Addressing Societal Issues
- Intersectionality and Resilience
- Emotional Support Framework
- Safe Spaces for Expressions
- Role Models and Empowerment
- Managing Struggles and Empowerment
Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
- Jackson Katz: https://search.app/EfiaBa6UdeuMJhKw9
About Nike Oruh:
Subscribe to Nike’s Substack - VII Breaths Substack: VII Breaths Journal
Nike is an experienced therapeutic specialist with a demonstrated history of working in the Health & Wellbeing industry. He has spent the past two decades involved in emotional and sexual health, which began with a non-profit organisation whose main aim was to help young people make informed choices. Nike has developed his communication skills, training and experience as a therapist across various settings and environments. Which led to his contribution to the seminal counselling book First Steps in Counselling (5th Edition) (PCCS Books).
His expertise in the areas of Men’s Health, Race & Equality and emotional wellbeing are in high demand from Higher Education (Edinburgh, Stirling and Strathclyde Universities) to the Third Sector (Penumbra, ARC Scotland).
Nike is the Clinical Lead Counsellor at Edinburgh Napier University with a Postgraduate Diploma (PgDip) focused in clinical, counselling and applied psychology from University of Stirling. A qualified Dietitian (PgDip) via Queen Margaret University and over 20 years in the music industry, as an award-winning performing artist, label owner and promoter.
He would describe himself as an ‘Elevator, Communicator & Motivator’, Nike’s passion is helping people to understand themselves and reach their true potential.
Recommended
Transcript
Society's Reward System and Fallibility
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out. Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is
Podcast Introduction: Emma and Chris
00:00:37
Speaker
Life's Dirty Little Secrets. Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington. And I'm Chris McCurry. And today we are privileged to have as our guest
00:00:49
Speaker
Nicky O'Rue. Nicky
Introduction to Nicky O'Rue
00:00:51
Speaker
is an experienced therapeutic specialist with a history of working in the health and wellbeing industry. He ah has expertise in the area of men's health, race and equality and emotional wellbeing. He's a clinical lead counselor at Edinburgh Napier University and focusing on clinical counseling and applied psychology. And he would describe himself as an elevator communicator and motivator.
00:01:19
Speaker
And he has a passion for helping people to understand themselves and reach their true potential. Welcome, Nikki. Lovely to be here. Thank you for that introduction. So you have many passions from, you know, counseling to diet and and health, physical health in general to music. You're an award-winning musician and and record promoter.
Young Men's Purpose and Ideological Vulnerability
00:01:43
Speaker
We may touch on that in the course of our time, but let's start by talking about Men's health in general, i mean both you know physical and mental, that seems to be a theme in our podcast lately, perhaps an unrecognized or area. But in your experience working in a counseling center at a university, what do you see going on with young men these days and what are they struggling with?
00:02:13
Speaker
It's such a huge area and as you said it's something that is very topical at the moment and I think it's an area that's rapidly evolving. Underneath it I think there's a search for purpose and unfortunately it appears to be in sort of like a landscape that offers more questions than answers.
00:02:31
Speaker
I think searching is a normal part of growing and it can sometimes sort of unfortunately lead, and in this case, we we're talking about young men into sort of darker paths or towards sort of extremes of the fringe ideologies and that will promise this clear solution of a sense of belonging and or an outlet for the frustrations. And I think that's kind of ensure what I'm observing a lot, particularly in my place of work. I work at Napier in Edinburgh, Scotland, and there is a sense of trying to search for that purpose. And where do I get that from? How do I get it?
00:03:09
Speaker
So yeah. And where are people getting their sense of purpose? there's that Again, there's a range of areas. I think we live in a technological age and of course the internet, social media is a huge influence on many, not just young people, but people in general. But if you even take a step back, our environment also plays a big part of that. We learn a lot in the home, you know, whether that's our family or friends, it's also institutions, structures, you have things like faith, religions, and a lot of these things are kind of, perhaps as we discussed earlier ah before we recorded, the fundamental aspects that lead us into certain directions. And if we don't have
00:03:54
Speaker
strong structures and we don't have leaders or guidance along that journey or that route we touch touched upon the hero journey, then we can go down different directions or directions that send us off the course.
00:04:07
Speaker
It's so good to be having this conversation. We have been having more conversations about men on the podcast. We had a wonderful conversation with Russell Colts on detoxifying masculinity. And I keep saying the same thing. Anybody who listens to this podcast will be getting bored of the fact that it's the first time in my career that I'm seeing more men than women. And
Masculinity, Contradictions and Modern Pressures
00:04:31
Speaker
it's a privilege, I think, for me, having getting to to really hear some of the struggles that young men and even older men are facing today, really with their
00:04:46
Speaker
ideas about what it is to be a man, because there are so many contradictions, and there's this sort of impossible masculinity that creates all this tension on the one hand. You know, men expect it to be stoic and strong, but then we have, you know, everything that's come with the Me Too movement that has sort of put men in a very in a position where they're predators and seen as you know violent and aggressive and often feel very blamed and ashamed. I'm not saying that you know there isn't reason for that too. Obviously, we we do have many victims of violence, but it is a very difficult position that some men find themselves in.
00:05:31
Speaker
definitely And it is a tension that there are lots of good men, obviously, like yourselves, and and especially young men that really need support and guidance because they are faced with this impossible masculinity and not a lot of direction. And you're right, they do end up finding direction in places that give them sort of concrete answers about what's right and wrong and may not be the best influences. And it is troubling, um you know, the statistics speak for themselves. that So many, I think young men die you know by suicide more than in any other way. So
Hope and Emotional Vocabulary in Men's Health
00:06:11
Speaker
we do have a crisis in young men and we need to understand it better.
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, I checked Russell's podcast for yourself. And one of the things that stuck out for me, which I really valued was his view on hope. And he said something along the lines of creating like a context and an environment for the sort of feelings and sort of for us to become feeling beings. I think is what he said something along those lines. And I think that's really important in terms of men and because very often we haven't necessarily been given the emotional vocabulary.
00:06:50
Speaker
So, you know, that's one of the things which I see a lot when I work with people in the space. It's so it's one of the first opportunities they've had to actually vocalize and verbalize those emotions and those feelings in a safe space. And a lot of what you were describing there really tapped into that idea of a search for identity.
00:07:11
Speaker
And you're speaking Chris about what's difficult. I think there's three key areas that was I've been thinking about, which is the shifting in sort of gender roles. That's something that's huge. The economic instability that certainly a lot of people are experiencing. And then there's the social expectations, which is kind of what you are leading to there, Emma. And I think a lot of the, if we were to start first with the sort of the gender roles, there's such additional sort of notions of what masculinity is supposed to be. you know
Impact of Gender Roles and Economic Instability
00:07:44
Speaker
and I think that can leave a lot of people, men, very unsure about what it even means to be a man. you know this it's kind of What does that even mean in 2024? Then when you look at the economic instability, rising costs of living, stagnant wages, there's fewer clear pathways to sort of create a future.
00:08:08
Speaker
that just adds to the uncertainty that seems to be around for a lot of people. And then we've got this growing emphasis on sort of emotional intelligence and vulnerability, which a lot of men who I work with struggle with that. you know How do you integrate that with your sort of self-concept due to the cultural conditionings?
00:08:30
Speaker
that we've been given. And yeah for me, I'm a passionate martial artist as well. And that's one of the key things for a lot of people who don't know much about martial arts, it stems a lot from vulnerability. And when we
Vulnerability and Martial Arts
00:08:43
Speaker
look at sort of martial arts and combat in general, a lot of people are looking to feel less vulnerable, you know? And you forget that a lot of the time that actually that's what's a big driver so that I won't be a victim, so that I won't feel vulnerable.
00:08:58
Speaker
So yeah, that's something which taps into a lot of my work is kind of how we do we have safe spaces to experience that vulnerability and the full plethora of emotions that we all experience.
00:09:10
Speaker
it's so yeah it's Thank you. Absolutely. And I think I've come to realize I'm a mom of two boys, and my boys have taught me so much about what it's like to be a boy today. And I realized that for me growing up,
00:09:28
Speaker
I was brought up by two feminists. I'm one of three sisters. and As far as I was concerned for a long time, girls had it harder. The boys had it easy. and Then I had sons. For me, the sort of man you know-male-boy issue was really quite invisible. I didn't think i didn't think much of it until I had boys.
00:09:53
Speaker
And they started to challenge me and to challenge my perception of how easy it was. yeah And they spoke to me from a very young age about the tension. And I realized that I was probably very naive as to what they were up against. So we talk a lot about feelings in this household, being the child of a psychologist. And one day my son, and I've said this in the podcast before, he came home and He's given me consent. And he was nine. And he said to me, he asked me, what do you think happens if a boy cries in math? And I said, well, what happens? I mean, people gather. And he said, no. What do you think happens when a girl cries in math? I suddenly realized that there is a difference.
00:10:44
Speaker
that when boys are emotional, they don't get the support. So there was a naivety from me that simply teaching boys and men emotional language isn't enough. We also need to give them context, communities, places where they can express it and have it met.
00:11:05
Speaker
with the support that they need. so Simply you know going out there and doing lots, and I think this should be happening in schools from a very young age, giving this language, but they we also need to recognize that the community isn't entirely ready for emotional men or boys or young people.
00:11:24
Speaker
and And we have to just be honest as it that' we still have work to do. And I speak to, as I said, many male clients and they'll say to me that they only share with me and they'll be married and they'll have sisters and you know they'll have communities around them, but they don't feel safe.
00:11:42
Speaker
and These are you know very intelligent, very successful men, but they're not comfortable. Yeah, and I totally agree with that. I think um one of the things which um I used to work in the third sector and we did a lot of work in high schools, I worked in high schools, and I think it was about 2011, you might have heard of the gentleman Jackson Katz.
00:12:03
Speaker
And he does a lot of work around domestic violence and violence towards women. And his program's called MVP, Mentals and Violence Prevention. And one of the the things that really struck with me is that often people think it's someone else's issue. You know, there's this kind of thought that and you kind of alluded to that with your sons, until you're open to seeing it, it's not really <unk> go be an issue. you know And I think it's everybody's issue to to work on the change that we want to see.
Understanding Anger and Emotional Expression
00:12:37
Speaker
And there's an opportunity there. And part of that is creating spaces to have open conversations, to explore different ideas, different processes, thoughts, structures. And I think a big part of that, as we touched on before, is the vulnerability, you know.
00:12:54
Speaker
because there are a lot of very vulnerable men out there and unfortunately often is expressed through anger which is an acceptable motion for men to express or other types of emotions like that and if we can provide other outlets and other opportunities to express what someone's feeling I think that's really what needs to be done.
00:13:17
Speaker
It is so true that the anger is the dominant and the the sort of more acceptable. And I remember, I think I might've mentioned it with Russell. I feel like I might be repeating myself. I'll try and get some original content soon.
00:13:30
Speaker
that We tend to label boys affect as anger. We mislabel it often as anger. And so they express a lot more anger. It's like anger is the acceptable emotion, but then they get older and we go too much anger. I don't want much anger. And that is very difficult because there isn't this sort of emotional vocabulary or permission to express different emotions.
00:13:58
Speaker
No, totally. but in In the counselling sphere, and one of the tools that... I'm a personal centre counsellor, but when I worked in the high schools, we used quite an integrative process and a bit quite a bit of CBT. And one of the things we used to use as a tool was the anger volcano or the the iceberg and so obviously you see the tip of the iceberg in the water which is often maybe the anger and then looking beneath the surface to see that okay beneath there is some sadness, there's some frustration, there's some um anxiety, some vulnerability and by addressing or meeting some of those emotions then often the whole of the iceberg can perhaps melt as opposed to just addressing what we see and and thinking that's all that's going on and
00:14:43
Speaker
that That was always a really powerful tool that I ah used and saw, particularly I would say actually young men go, actually, yeah, you know what? I do feel afraid or I am feeling worried about this and the way that I express it is this, I kick off or I do that and you know that's accepted. So yeah, there's definitely work work to be done there. Well, I've worked over the many years as a child psychologist with a lot of with a yeah lot of young men and boys.
00:15:13
Speaker
And I've gotten a lot out of teaching them emotional vocabulary. Like there's the difference between, as you said, and anger and frustration. Or I'll never forget teaching, it was actually a girl, the word indignant. She was getting eased at school and she was saying, I was so angry. And I said, you know, we have this great word, it's called indignant. And she said, yeah, indignant. And her whole posture changed.
00:15:41
Speaker
yeah Instead of being hunched over and, you know, I'm angry. graveve She threw her shoulders back and her head up and said, I'm indignant. And it just shifted things. Yeah. It's giving people the tools. I think that's what you're describing there. When we can give people the tools, then, you know, that old proverb of, you know, teach someone how to, you can give someone a fish or you can teach them how to catch the fish. You know, and often I did groups with young men, maybe around,
00:16:10
Speaker
you know i use back in in the days, it's like anger management. And actually, sometimes it's about giving someone the tools of how to be calm. you know and And I've got kids as well, I've got four kids. And one of the things, you know if you ask my children, you know in schools, I don't know if it's the same in Singapore, in America, it's like people talk to calm down, just calm down. But what does that even mean? When you say to somebody, calm down, what am I supposed to do?
00:16:36
Speaker
If you had asked my children, they'd say, okay, number one is breathing, right? So what does that do? It's going to allow you to regulate your heart rate because when you're anxious or stressed, your heart goes up, so you're slowing it down. The other thing that's happened is you're getting oxygen, right? You need oxygen to oxygenate your blood. So that's going to then help to go to the organs. So there's actually a tangible way to do the thing that that you're looking for. It's not just this word that's ah palmed about and giving people the tools and the understanding allows them to do for self and have a better understanding herself one of One of the things that I would coach parents on is to do that kind of validation or feedback and to use.
Teaching Emotional Vocabulary to Children
00:17:17
Speaker
more nuanced language, like, wow, you're really frustrated right now or whatever it may be. And I would encourage parents to not be too calm about it because people hate being told, just take some deep breaths. you know And it's like, you just want to punch the person. They don't get it. yeah So I would talk about what I call whole body validation.
00:17:45
Speaker
where the parent would reflect back, you know, I mean, not throw furniture too, but but to be able to go really frustrated right now. ah yeah And the those non-verbals are very powerful in terms of saying, I get it. and Because if people don't feel heard, they don't feel felt, yeah they're going to persist in that behavior until they do. A friend of mine, it was actually one of our guests recently, ah Steve Graybar used to say, all behavior is a message.
00:18:15
Speaker
And the behavior won't begin to change until the person knows the message has been received. i Those non-verbals are important to to be able to convey, you know, I get it. You know, this is, you know, this is frustrating. This is, this is really sad. Wow. And i so I think going back to what you were saying before,
00:18:35
Speaker
It starts with, you know, what can parents do it to raise good boys and and girls girls too, because the girls need to be able to understand their own internal states and express them in ways that are going to be effective. Yeah. What you touched up on there, Chris, as well, was that acknowledgement and acceptance of how somebody's feeling.
00:18:55
Speaker
So, and and you are also allude into that as well. i that if If I can't even see that you're struggling, I can't even acknowledge that, what I'm seeing doesn't look like a struggle. It's like, ah but what are you complaining about? But when we can have that empathy or that understanding of, okay, now I do see that it's hard for you right now. You're feeling disconnected. You don't feel you have a place, okay? What would a place look like for you? How can we include you more? How can we perhaps change the system to have you feel more part of it. How can we develop trust? And within my my work at Napier, we found that a lot of men were not engaging in therapy. And that's me and myself and my colleague, Amy, who was on the show as well. We did some focus groups.
00:19:39
Speaker
for men in particular to find out what is it that we're perhaps not doing? you know Ask the people who you are actually trying to engage with, what is it that we're missing here? Is it our approach? Is it the language we're using? Perhaps we're using a language that doesn't resonate with you or you don't feel but that's part of your belonging. and I think that's another big area that why young men in particular feel vulnerable is that need for belonging.
00:20:09
Speaker
and And if you look at the sort of extreme groups, there's a sense of, well, at least but I belong here. Even if it's this complete abhorrent thing in my eyes or someone else's eyes, I belong. I feel part of something. I feel included.
00:20:24
Speaker
And as humans, were we are so social creatures. you know And in the UK, whether it's sport or you look at things like gangs and things like that, a big part of that is a sense of I am part of something.
Belonging and Young Men's Identity
00:20:36
Speaker
And the other part of that, which we were speaking about Chris before, was the initiation. you know Part of societies and cultures, there's an initial initiation to become something. you know And I suppose for young men, you initiate to become a man. How does a young man become that?
00:20:53
Speaker
What are the steps and the stages? And there's a lack of that, it's a lack of opportunity to go through those phases to become. Oh yeah. I mean, historically in other cultures, it was quite clear, you know, at a certain age, you got taken it out into the the forest and that's right you know, circumcised with a dull rock. And, you know dear you know, you found out that those spooky characters were actually your uncles and masks, you know, all these years and are initiated. And then you came back to the village and now you sleep in the men's hut. And it was like one and done.
00:21:30
Speaker
But now it's kind of vague. And so people are looking for that validation, that initiation in some places that are not very healthy. That's correct. And positive role models as well. We would touch it upon that. where Where are the positive role models? And often they're quite binary or one dimensional. It's kind of like, it's either this or it's this, you know, as opposed to can multiple things actually coexist, you know? And ah in therapy, with a lot of clients we talk about, you know, I was speaking with a client just the other day that a good person can do bad things.
00:22:09
Speaker
or a bad person can have some good qualities. And this sort of nuanced outlook on perhaps what it can look like to be a man can be various things. It's it's not just this or this, you know, and so that will allow people to, particularly young men, to find a place for themselves to fit in, you know, and to kind of feel part of something. Well, when we talked to Stephen Batchelor quite some time ago, we we talked about this issue of good and evil, and how it comes split into you know us versus them, me and you, I'm this, you're that. And
Binary Views of Good vs. Evil
00:22:52
Speaker
when in fact, we both, we all harbor both yes and are capable of both. So we should be a little little more humble about this, but
00:23:02
Speaker
in my experience, when people get stressed, they go right to that binary view of the world. totally all this psychoanalyst call splittting yeah you know The So everything becomes black and white, all or none, us us versus them. And then that's something that people can embrace because it's simple and you know it gives them a path forward, not necessarily a healthy path though. It's just hitting me something that as I listen to you both, I'm thinking one of the issues we have with
00:23:40
Speaker
with men is because anger is the dominant emotion that often those young men who are angry faced with rejection and was being told that their anger is too much and nobody wants to listen to angry men. Angry men are scary and intimidating to women.
00:23:59
Speaker
And thinking about that metaphor of the iceberg, because the anger is just the tip. We need to give men time to talk about what's beneath the anger, but sometimes there's just no time for that because anger can be.
00:24:12
Speaker
such a powerful emotion. It's a difficult one to sit with. And maybe that's the privilege we have in therapy that usually people do get angry, but they don't tend to be aggressive, but in other contexts they could be. yes But we almost, this reimagining masculinity includes being okay with the anger that is felt. And giving that time so that we can see what else is there. And I've realized that as a woman, my you know my boys have talked about martial arts and boxing, and my first reaction was, no, you don't need that.
00:24:53
Speaker
Why do you need to be aggressive? Who are you going to use that against? My initial is push away. Thankfully, I have a very ah very patient boys and very patient husband who's educated me. That's okay. That it's okay to want to be strong. That it doesn't mean that I'm going to want to help people.
00:25:12
Speaker
that it's okay to like to get into fights, you know, not to hurt, but, you know, to see how my body can move and how I can, you know, feel strong. And that for me is a different version of the world as a woman. You know i know, there's lots of women that like fighting, but I don't, I see aggression as quite dangerous and quite scary and I get quite intimidated.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yes. But I think that the journey is about making space for these different, like you said, the different assets and not pushing it away and going, that's not okay. We can't have anger. We can't have wanting to do you know any aggressive behavior. That's not okay. It's kind of, and I can see why that would be very frustrating. It's very frustrating for my children. When I go, we can't speak like that. You can't talk like that. I don't like you listening to these people, like shutting everything down.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah. But to be open and curious and to invite isn't easy either. Very hard. It's a big journey, but listening to you both, I'm thinking the journey is really requires an opening up because we can't continue the way we are. We are losing
Reimagining Masculinity for the Future
00:26:26
Speaker
young men too much. You know, young men are not asking for help. Like you said in in your organization, that sounds fantastic that you've had a focus group and said, what are we missing? We need to be asking up these questions. Why are we losing men, you know, to
00:26:42
Speaker
feel fringe, why are they more inviting than being amongst us? You touched upon it beautifully there though with the acceptance that the all those varying feelings and emotions are are valid.
00:26:58
Speaker
As soon as you disconnect that and say, well, that's okay, but that's not okay. you know And it requires empathy. It requires awareness. It requires some actionable steps. And I often communicate that, you know, there's ah the duality that exists in nature, in the world. I mean, I believe in peace. I'm completely anti-violent. Yeah. I train martial arts. I love animals. I love cats and dogs. Yeah. I eat chickens.
00:27:28
Speaker
You know, we've got this duality and we like to, but that's different. This bit's okay because it sits within my narrative or what's okay with me. I'm being open to the conversation and to be able to question, okay, why do I think like that? Or why does that person think like that? You know, nobody just came along and had all those thoughts, beliefs, and ideas, a lot of its conditioning, a lot of its environment, a lot of its learned behavior.
00:27:54
Speaker
And that means, as you said, creating an open space to discuss that, the only way that we're going to have any change by just demanding that your beliefs are wrong or you cannot do that. Well, obviously it's not working at all and hasn't worked. So, you know, is it what as Einstein, you know, to keep repeating the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity. You know, so we have to change what we're doing if it's not working.
00:28:21
Speaker
yeah and I can see how hard it is. like Personally, I noticed the tension with me and my children. i'm not I don't see it in my clinic room. In my clinic room, I have lots of space for motion, and it's fine. But when my sons come up and I hear them, you know sometimes their banter just feels you know borderline aggressive or you know They talk to me about boxing and they watch boxing. and I just worry, what does that mean? is you know Are they going to get into fights? Are they going to want to be? But that's pushing them away instead of being curious. and and i'm i I'm working on it. I can't say it's really easy.
00:29:05
Speaker
I have good guidance from my husband, but having been brought up with girls and, you know, pacifist and all that, I think I just don't want that, but that's an oversimplistic version.
00:29:18
Speaker
yes yeah and I have to learn how to integrate it in my mind, but give them the room to explore and be curious for themselves and give them the space to yeah to to tell me about it. I think context is quite key as well. One of the main martial arts I trained was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's interesting we're talking about mental health because it's become very popular within a lot of the podcast world and the media world, from your Hubermans to your Lex Readmans and your Joe Rogans. But one of the things about that particular art is learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, the repeated space of vulnerability then gaining strength.
00:30:00
Speaker
you know
Martial Arts: Exploring Vulnerability and Aggression
00:30:01
Speaker
there various analogies and elements of that which allow you to experience the gamut of feelings and emotions in a contained environment. you know So you can safely explore your aggression you know and that's accepted. you know And then you stop or you tap and you can go again. right And you also are going to be pushing yourself to be in places that you're not familiar with or things that are difficult. And I think that
00:30:33
Speaker
happens in an athletic realm there, but I think similarly having these conversations within the family, within communities, is really important. I used to run a group in the community, it was called the Feel Good Group, and ah we made it single gender. She had all female groups, male groups, and within those spaces, for many of those young people, it was the first time that they would sit and have lunch together or talk about issues that they just didn't feel safe safe to have. And it was such a beautiful space to sort of, you know, you're having some lunch or eating some fruit and discussing what it's like and how does that feel for you in a safe, contained space, allows people to feel free, you know, and to perhaps explore things that they think are not acceptable. And I think that's severely lacking in many areas. I can't think of many places where particularly men in general have that freedom to do that. Maybe the barbershop, maybe.
00:31:29
Speaker
football, a few places where you can let down that mask, you know? But there's not the, there are these communities and they'll go and watch, you know, a match, but they don't speak often about the things that they want to speak about. And that's what I hear in, you know, in my clinic room is that they, there aren't that many opportunities for men to speak more vulnerable, or at least they don't feel like there is.
00:31:57
Speaker
How do we create more, especially for our young men? Like if I think of this idea of you know martial arts and I sometimes think of the gaming community yeah to play and test themselves and be challenged and see you know do some aggressive things because you know they're not They're not allowed to go out there and, you know, chase each other with sticks anymore. They find other ways of expressing those parts of themselves. But yeah, there aren't many opportunities for men to speak openly and vulnerably.
00:32:36
Speaker
I think what Chris said earlier about starting quite young is quite important when we're most malleable. So, you know, promoting healthy muscles masculinity early, you know, so updating that version of what it means to be a man, you know, promoting emotional intelligence, collaboration, self-awareness alongside the strength, alongside the resilience. It's not either or.
00:33:01
Speaker
you know It's not like you can't have that and you can't do that. And like fostering those communities as well. So I think that's maybe not just with men, but there's a lack of community. So it's like being alone in a crowd. you know Often people feel disconnected. And so whether that is, as we've mentioned, through sport, through arts, through group activities, that can foster that sense of belonging without the you know the cliche toxicity. It's like actually we're part of here you know and I'm accepted and like I have a voice. you know That's a big part of what's lacking is there isn't an opportunity to be heard as you are, like just as you are, not because of what you do or what you have, you're enough as you are. you know
Empowering Emotional Management
00:33:50
Speaker
think And I think part of that acceptance piece is a message explicitly or implicitly that I trust that you can have these emotions and you're going to make good decisions about it.
00:34:04
Speaker
Because in the therapy that Emma and I have been trained in, it's not anger management so much as it's managing your behavior when you're angry. Trying to like get rid of your feelings is is difficult or maladaptive and in a lot of cases. So it's like, okay, here you are being angry. I trust that you're going to be able to make a good decision, even though you're angry. And I think that's very empowering to get that message that you're not going to like go crazy or fall apart or yeah you know become an ax murderer just because you're feeling X, Y, or Z feeling. you know And let's talk about how you're going to manage the situation and giving kids the tools to be able to do that largely through expressing their feelings in appropriate ways you know and and adaptive ways through language or whatever it may be. But I think you know it kind of goes back to that idea about and martial arts and
00:35:03
Speaker
You know, Gandhi said that you can't be a pacifist unless you know how to fight. says Being a pacifist is a choice. And if you can't fight, there is no choice. That's exactly right. That's a beautiful quote. You know, years years ago, when I got my black belt and Karate, one of my colleagues said, so, you know, can you kill a person now if they attack you? And I said, and actually, now I don't have to kill them, you know, because anybody can kill somebody, pick up a chair in a bar and hit somebody and that's right. yeah But if you know how to use your body and, you know, through martial arts or whatever, you can handle situations or even not get involved at all because you're not going to be reacting out of fear. Yeah, that's beautiful.
00:35:49
Speaker
and that's It is such a paradox. like When I think of people taking martial arts, so I often think it's in defense and that you're more likely to get yourself into trouble. But but we had a conversation with a psychologist who works in a trauma center in London and and she talked about interpersonal violence and how your men are carrying knives to protect themselves.
00:36:12
Speaker
And if you carry a knife, you're more likely to use it. But often they're carrying knives because they're so scared that they're going to be attacked. And I guess it's a paradox that if you actually have the skills, you're less likely to use them.
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I totally agree with that. I think the other thing which I see with training and other endeavors as well is that these are just other vehicles for expression. So,
The Necessity of Anger and Acceptance
00:36:41
Speaker
you know, I did music and when I'm performing and when I've done music, it's an opportunity to express myself.
00:36:49
Speaker
you know, when you're doing the sports or you're, you know, doing other activities, it's an opportunity to express your whole self. And the other thing we've talked a lot about anger, it's necessary. It's a necessary emotion. So as soon as you say you shouldn't be that, it's like, well, part of me is not necessary, or it's not valid. And I think it's about creating an environment and a culture where that acceptance of of the whole as ah as opposed to cherry picking, well, this and this is acceptable and this is okay. As you know it's and she said, Chris, okay, I can see that. I can see that's what you experienced here. How are you going to manage that? Is that serving you? you know Is there an alternative? Is there a different way? and That's one of the first lessons you will learn in authentic martial arts is to avoid. That's actually the very first thing. you know If you can avoid it, that's the best.
00:37:45
Speaker
form. So you don't have to do anything. So I think there is often misconceptions as well that leave people to have a certain view of what the situation is or how something's being perceived. But yeah, I really do think we have got to create the space for these conversations like we're doing today. We're having the conversation, you know,
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess recognizing that there are a lot of young men who are not getting this opportunity to have these conversations and correct and understanding. I remember listening to a podcast many years ago ah about a very sad story of ah a young man who died interpersonal violence. He was, he was stabbed in London many years ago and he had started a boxing gym And he had so many young men at his gym. And unfortunately he was, I think he was a victim, but it wasn't, he wasn't a part of the fight. But he had this boxing gym and that was a community for these young men in Brixton. His mother went on to continue this boxing gym. But I think those are, that's what's missing is where
00:39:06
Speaker
young men can come together and get accepted and have opportunities to share and feel a part of something and where they can have the opportunity to talk about themselves. And I think that's part of it has been lost, but part of it's never been there. It's just
Challenges and Rising Expectations for Young Men
00:39:22
Speaker
the way we find ourselves, I think I haven't got data on this, but we find ourselves in a situation where the young men feel so disenfranchised because there's more competition now. There's young women who are working really hard and getting degrees and not getting into violence and
00:39:44
Speaker
are getting ahead, and I think that's that makes it much harder than young men 50 years ago where women were mostly at home. There's much more than expectation on men today than I think there was 50 years ago in terms of behavior academics, and it's hard.
00:40:02
Speaker
It is hard. I think one of the things I've taken from today is almost it's about recognising the challenge. Sometimes you don't even want to say that it's challenging or that's difficult. It's recognising it first. And this is like a call to action.
00:40:18
Speaker
It's a call to action. When you observe and you are aware of an issue, you say, I see it. What can we do, support? What can we do to resolve? Because it's not an unsolvable problem. I don't subscribe to It's Hopeless. I actually believe there are a lot of good men out there. There are a lot of good women out there. you know And it's about working together in the community, societies, families.
00:40:41
Speaker
and collectively addressing it. I don't think there's one simple answer, which is again, we often look for, I just want a quick fix. If we do this, will this happen? There's many, we talked about this Chris about the concept of like the flower, you know, in person to end the counseling, you know, you need the soil, you need the water, you need the sunlight for the plant to flourish and grow, you know, and for young men and for young women,
00:41:09
Speaker
We need those various components of purpose, family, health, nutrition, all these different things to help a person become their whole self. you know yeah and Like you so wisely said, you know it's easy like it was for me before I had boys to think it was somebody else's problem.
00:41:31
Speaker
ah the and It really is all of our problem. If we want a healthy society, we need to look after everybody in our communities. Definitely. I mean, I do a lot of race and equality work and there's a... there's lots of talk around intersectionality. It's Kimberly Crenshaw, and when she talks about inequality, she says, when you see it as a them problem or other problem, that's the problem. That is the problem. When it doesn't sort of relate to me, it's like it's over there, right? That's the problem because we're all connected.
00:42:06
Speaker
you know We'll all have somebody who is intrinsically linked. We will have a brother, a friend, a sister, a mother, a cousin, who that relates to. you know And only when we see that, then we go, oh, actually, that makes a little bit more sense. Or you have a child. You suddenly go, ah. right Or you work in an environment where you see that struggle. You see you know you go into a community where somebody can't get a job. They're they're not heard. Then you say, I'd be angry too.
00:42:36
Speaker
If I felt like I'm not seen, I'm not heard, you know and there's another gentleman called Ibram X. Kendi, and when he talks about racism, he talks about it being rained on. so like But not knowing you're wet. We're getting all these messages, and I suppose young men as well are getting these messages and not realizing that I'm wet with all this information, this misinformation, actually. And we've got an opportunity to go hang on a minute, you know, like you're soaking with this, these lies, this misinformation, this myths about how you need to be. And actually, we can change that, you know, you can be your full self without going down that avenue or behaving that way or treating ah somebody else and other like that, you know.
00:43:21
Speaker
I'm sure. Yeah, it could be a coworker. It could be one of your students. It could be anybody in your life who's struggling where you can have, you know, you can take those deep breaths yourself because very often we get activated when somebody else is struggling and we want to push it away. But to be able to be open to that experience and present to that person is, uh,
00:43:50
Speaker
you know transformative, maybe not in a huge way and not right away, but you know it's incrementally, we can create that holding environment for the people around us and give them the tools to be able to struggle well. i just That's my favorite definition of resilience is struggling well.
00:44:10
Speaker
I like that. I like that. It's triggering well. yeah And it's necessary as well. That's the thing. They're not in isolation. I was what speaking to a guy, he's a PT, and he's in in terms of bodybuilding and stuff. And he was sort talking about how you know you have to continue to lift heavier weights to get stronger.
00:44:35
Speaker
you know you have to have to embrace the struggle. We all want to get there, but no one wants to travel. You have to go through, as we said earlier, the initiation. you know If you look at mythology, right you go through the fire before the liquid gold.
00:44:53
Speaker
You know, it's kind of like, those are the, it's written in scriptures and mythology that, but we've kind of lost it to some degree of, we just end up there. But actually the process of, you know, empowering somebody's in person-centered counseling, they're actualizing tendency. So if you can empower that,
00:45:12
Speaker
then they can be become who they need to be, not who I think they should be, who who they need to be for themselves. We need to empower people more. We need more
The Need for Positive Role Models
00:45:22
Speaker
role models. I've been doing these series of talks on what about our boys.
00:45:27
Speaker
And one of the questions that a lot of people ask me is, where do I find better role models for my voice? Who could they listen to? Who could they look up to? So if you have any ideas, that'd be great. Because because the people that are being listened to are probably not the ones we want them to listen to. Those are the ones that make yeah a lot of noise. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the interesting things about that is even what we define as a role model. So a lot of what we define is what we're looking up to. The framework or the system is flawed in itself. So we kind of look at success as achieving. In other cultures, it's like you're wise when you get old. You're not for him to decide. So sometimes it's almost like if we can still waiting, you know know, sometimes we have to even look at is the system itself something that we need to be looking at?
00:46:27
Speaker
who do we put on a pedestal? Who do we say is worthy? And as much as and when we might say we don't, you say that and then you go, well but look, I can see over there, they're the person who's popular though. You say it doesn't matter to look like that or to have that, but that's not what I'm seeing. So there's a lot of fundamental work to be done in terms of changing that narrative, narrative changing how we, because I think we forget the power that we have as a collective, you know it kind of feels like, oh, I can't change anything. you know And so empower that empowering the sense of you matter and you do have a voice is where I believe a lot of that. So it doesn't necessarily have to be you know somebody out there. It could be, in fact, for me, certainly my role role models are my sister.
00:47:19
Speaker
you know, my mum or a teacher who encouraged you, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be anything grandeur. And sometimes when I think about, when I thought about that, it's often the people who listened to you, who believed in you.
00:47:37
Speaker
Those are the people we need to exalt more and say, actually, that's such a viable thing that, you know, you can be met and seen and encouraged, you know? Each of us has the potential to be that person for somebody.
00:47:55
Speaker
That's right. And we never know when we are. it ka It can be on that day when somebody just smiles and it's like, I'm seen, you know, or they listen or, you know, you go in the shop and someone lets you in or you know, rush. And it's like, man, I made, I needed that today, you know, and the the therapeutic space. We're privileged to see that a lot. You know, we get to see people that are parts of people that perhaps ah are not shown to the majority of the world.
00:48:23
Speaker
It could be small and perhaps unnoticed or something that people could collect on years later. That doesn't take far away. You're right. It's not always a high five moment, is it? No, it isn't. And sometimes it can be a painful moment.
00:48:41
Speaker
So let's say that really hard. And in hindsight, it was just important. And necessary and essential is part of the the struggle, the beautiful struggle. In fact, that actually part of becoming, it's going to be like that wave. It's this, it's, it's filled with the valley and the hilltop, you know, and sometimes we're just talking about all, you know, hilltop, hilltop, hilltop. It's like, Oh, as you said, Chris, how do you manage when you're in a valley? What have you got the tools?
00:49:10
Speaker
you know, to navigate that, to to manage that, because that's part of the existing and living, you know? Yeah, it's so true. So true. Chris has asked us to think about wrapping up. and Sorry, Chris. It's good. It's a bit of a habit of mine to ask another question when Chris says wrapping up.
00:49:34
Speaker
I'm trying not to be too rule-guarant here, but all good. It's all good. It's been a great conversation. yeah i as And I know it's very late for Emma. I'm having such a fun time. Forgotten about the time. You've given me so much to think about. Thank you. yeah ands yeah I think we can all go forward and try to be that affirming validating hope in person to the other people in our lives, even the you know the stranger on the bus or yeah our own children or whomever it may be, just be open to the possibilities that we could be somebody's hero for just a brief moment in a meaningful way. Thank you so much. I really do believe that you know young men and and anybody can find that purpose. It's not
00:50:24
Speaker
an external imposed identity. you know It's like our own authenticity, and that's always evolving as well. We're evolving beings, you know and these sort of conversations give me hope that it's not a foregone conclusion. you know right Thank you, Nikki. Thank you. If there are any resources that that you have that you think might be of interest to our listeners, you can get those to us and we'll put them in the show notes. I will do. I will do. oh yeah All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets Podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at Life's Dirty Little Secrets Podcast at gmail dot.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Life's Dirty Little Secrets or on Facebook at Life's Dirty Little Secrets Podcast.
00:51:16
Speaker
We invite you to follow, rate and review us on wherever you listen to this podcast. It is the best way to get our podcast out in front of new listeners. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with more. See you then.