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Problem #11: Tapping the Reservoir of Ideas
133 Plays3 days ago
Kristian and Tracy are joined by the creative director of Pinnacle Entertainment (Savage Worlds), Darrell Hayhurst, as we discuss the "precious" nature of ideas, and trying to break through the "logjam" in our minds that prevent us from coming up with more. We talk about ways to tap into a broader pool of solutions to problems, different concepts, and fresh perspectives as a creator. We also talk about how to identify the ideas we have that are worth pursuing, when to cut our losses, take breaks, and how sometimes pursuing something else entirely can bring passion and focus back to projects you thought were long dead.
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Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this crisis of confidence. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 11, tapping the reservoir of ideas.
00:00:43
Speaker
So this week we have a special guest, somebody that I have known since I was a little kid and um somebody I very deeply respect who's had a lot of fingers in the HON cluster and a lot to do with why I right for RPGs in the first place. Darryl Hayhurst is here. He's the creative director of Pinnacle Entertainment, writer of Ghost Mountain. He wrote Deslend's Lost Colony, Maw of the Oblivion, Necessary Evil 3. He was the former line developer of Toreg eternity and author of tons of stuff for that. He did his own space fighting game way back in the day called Hard Vacuum, which is still played today on occasion. um So welcome, Darryl, and thank you for being here.
00:01:29
Speaker
Hello, thank you very much. Yes, welcome. I like to think of you as Tracy's second spirit and brain. just like I am the devil on her shoulder. She still puts up with me after all this time. That's true. She's the kind one and I'm the absolute monster. No. I've heard all sorts of wonderful stories about your friendship. So well, the truth is I would not be where I am today without Darryl. It's just the truth. And so today and the reason I wanted Darryl to do this episode, we're going to talk about the reservoir of ideas. And what I mean by that is we all as creators have a ah reservoir.
00:02:19
Speaker
of ideas, where where our ideas come from. right And um managing that reservoir is a little bit tricky. And Darryl is one of the most, what I say is prolifically creative person people that I have ever met, meaning that he is he has unrestricted access to his reservoir. And he can pull out idea after idea after idea.
00:02:43
Speaker
The secret is to blow it up. But he doesn't he's not afraid of pulling out a million of them and carpet bombing you with them until one of them sticks. And that's a very, very valuable skill because a lot of times, especially new creators, can get really stuck.
00:03:04
Speaker
saying, this is my precious, beautiful idea. I'm holding it up. Like this is this is all I've got. This is it. Right. And the thing is, that's really not true. But when we're new creators, we really tend to think that way. And it might be true. And it's better to find that out earlier rather than later. Right. In my mind, like a lot of us do this because we have a need to.
00:03:31
Speaker
right We are not in this for the money. you know We are storytellers and we have this these ideas, these stories that we want to share and they bug us until we get them out there.
00:03:43
Speaker
And so you get them out there and you don't necessarily publish them. Right. Like yeah where I started was, you know, I made a role playing game and I like, literally I've got the pages all printed out. It's like 300 pages and I drew my own art and it is terrible.
00:04:03
Speaker
But it's super interesting to like look back at and be like, whew, I thought that was a good idea. If I'd published this, like I'd be laughed out of the the stratosphere, right? But doing that taught me the skills that I employ every day now on other games, including my own games. yeah So don't you don't have to publish it, but you do have to do it and finish it. and then be smart enough to be like, hmm, maybe not. yeah Well, it's it's like any other skill. Like, you know, you, you, you practice, yeah right? You don't start off being an expert. You start off, you're fumbling your way through, you know, maybe your, you know, your form and technique isn't perfect, but it will be, you know, exactly do it so and the irony is right. Like you've got that idea, like the one that's pushing you to do it and by necessity,
00:04:58
Speaker
It won't work, right? You will do it and it will be your first thing ever. And anything that you do, your first try is usually pretty terrible, right? It doesn't mean there's no value in it. It's awesome. Do it. Right. Yeah. But be advised, if that was your your favorite thing ever, like you're going to look back and go. who Okay, you know what's next? yeah and And the cool thing, even when you look back at it, is' it's like, it's a good way. I think we talked about this before about kind of seeing where, how you've grown, right? Like, Oh yeah, no, I would, I would do this totally different now. Or where you have regressed. Yeah. Cause like some of my art that I drew for that game, I'm looking back at and going like, man, that's really good. I can't do that anymore. yeah Like some of it's pretty terrible, but some of it's like,
00:05:50
Speaker
um That's not bad. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you did something really well and you're like, damn, okay, um I have some innate talent in this. That's great. I mean, let's not go so far as talent, but well, innate ability to some degree, and they so stick with it.
00:06:07
Speaker
Yes. Sure. So when you did create your your first role-playing game, Darrell, you you said you finished it? I did. in what way In what way did you feel like, okay, i need to finish i like how did you finish it? How far did you take it? So I had, like I say, 300 pages printed in Word doc, of course, but they were laid out. you know It actually looks like a game.
00:06:33
Speaker
a old cheesy game, right? sure But that's where we all start. And this is the funny thing about like pros, right? The only difference between pros and us is they were doing this stuff in 88 or earlier when nobody knew any better anyway.
00:06:48
Speaker
right And so it's like, okay, like if you go look back at all that old stuff, some of it's absolutely terrible. I mean, there's absolute brilliance in a lot of it, right? But compared to where we've gotten today, like, but that was what was, that was cutting edge technology yes back then. So like they have the in before the lock.
00:07:13
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you, you like 300 pages, it was like, you had, you had chapters, you had organization. Yeah. Oh yeah. Awesome. I made a table of contents and I printed it all on essentially, um,
00:07:28
Speaker
the kind of paper that you put on cover letters for- Like fancy resume paper kind of stuff? Resume paper, that's the one that I was looking for, right? In this hole punch, in a binder, the binder's got a clear cover and da da da da da. It's pretty awesome, but terrible. Right. But here's the thing though, and I think that's an important point, right? That finishing process um Sooner or later, for somebody who's going to share this stuff and like want to publish it stuff, you're going to have to finish it. yeah And when the only way to learn how to finish it is to finish something. That last 5% on any project is like 90% of the effort. yeah And unless you've got more money than you know what to do with, you're going to have to do it yourself.
00:08:18
Speaker
but you know, pay someone to finish it for you. Plus, it's your baby. They're not going to do it the way you want it anyway. yeah You might as well learn. And part of how I've been successful in the industry is anytime an opportunity comes along to learn how something works, like, oh, how do we do a table of contents the right way? How do we do an index? How do we do this? How do we do that? Every time that how do I link um page links, right? Yeah.
00:08:49
Speaker
you know, some people are like, ugh, gag me with a spoon, right? But it's like, if you want to complete a book, learn it, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the other distinguishing difference between then and now is we have the internet.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. Like we can look up YouTube videos or, you know, oh yeah like all sorts of tutorials or whatever. Yeah. Everybody back then was swinging for the fences, right? Yeah, right. Yeah. And I think that's an important thing because I did, I was the same way. Like not, I didn't write my I didn't write a role-playing game when I was, you know, Darryl Age writing a role-playing game. But I was writing stories, and as I've alluded to in the past, I finished them.
00:09:34
Speaker
I'm a big believer in finishing the thought before I put it out there. Get into the habit of getting into the habit. Yes. And because I do that, I knew how to finish things more complex later, right? I knew how to learn how to do a table of contents. I learned how to learn how to lay things out and put art into layout and all this other stuff that I would that I needed to figure out, right? yeah And if you don't commit yourself to to doing that part of it early on, even when it's when it's really not that good or when it's not as good as what you're gonna do later, this is ah it's an essential part of learning how to do this. You gotta start somewhere. You gotta start somewhere. So, um i I think back to the to the reservoir of ideas a little bit.
00:10:31
Speaker
um i i've I've had to learn this over many years. And I think, Daryl, I don't know. did you did were you Did you used to be super precious about your ideas or were you always able to just sort of improvise that? I mean, of course I was because you can't make a 300 page book of your own you know crappy stuff without loving it, right? You have to love it. And then at the end of it, you have to go, okay.
00:11:02
Speaker
like I did that. yeah It's totally worth doing and like say, I'll i'll find it one of these days and show it to you. you laugh But yeah, so yeah, I i i i think that's right. And i and and like we can look at the macro and the micro here because like you pick your idea and you say, maybe you've got five of them, right? Maybe you don't, maybe you only got one, but you do it, you pick one and you say, I'm going to commit some time and effort to this, right?
00:11:34
Speaker
And um if it's worth committing that time and effort to, you've got passion about it, all the boxes are ticked for you to devote yourself to this, then you work on it, right? And even if it is terrible, it's way easier to revise than it is to create. Oh, yes. Yes, it is. And what I find is once I've me, and not as as somebody who doesn't have ADHD and stuff like that, we can get into what how Christian deals with this kind of thing, is once I find an idea that I like, that that all the all those boxes are ticked and I say, okay, this I'm going to spend my time doing this for a while, ah to its logical conclusion, right? I can do that. But generally, my reservoir of big ideas then gets blocked.
00:12:22
Speaker
because if I allow it to unblock, I will lose focus on the current idea and I won't finish it. We have all had that experience just as a GM running a game and then like a new book comes out and you're like, oh, I'm going to pick up that book and like read through it and be like, oh, now I kind of want to run this. And your current game is now dead. as The biggest destroyer of any campaign are the publishers making the game. It's but ironic. Yeah. I mean, it happened to run all the time and and I don't let it happen to me. Like I will say, I'm not going to buy this thing until I'm, or like video games. I won't, I won't buy this new video game until I finish. Yeah. But you know, all these like crowdfunding things that they do where you have to get in on it, you know, during that window makes it really hard to do that. It is, it is. I buy them. I just refuse to like crack it open and get invested in it until I'm done with my current thing. But then again, I also prefer ending my current campaign. Yes. Like as Savage Worlds fans, like that's one of the things that Savage Worlds does is none of their settings are meant to go forever. Like you tell a big story, you see the oohs and ahs and you get out and you try the next thing.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah, right I'm a big fan of that. So Christian, give us your perspective on this. yeah Somebody with ADHD, somebody who's with your history and all this stuff. So I hope, I hope Jennifer gives me for sharing this in this context, but, uh, you know, yeah, we were, so we, we had been working on Explorer for a long while and, uh, a big reason for the, for the delay and and and the pause on it was because Jen had another idea.
00:14:10
Speaker
And it was campaign Cardomancy. And so that consumed her brain space for, I don't know, a year or more. And we're nearing the end of it where, you know, we're trying to get it in layout and everything. There's been some setbacks, but it's cool that that's coming out, that, you know, that we're going to be, you know, we're going to be plate testing and all that and making sure everything's good to go. But yeah, it felt weird like having to sit back and wait for Jen to finish that.
00:14:38
Speaker
You know, cause then like I, if I wasn't, if she wasn't into working on the setting, I wasn't necessarily into it at that, at that point either. Um, and then in the meantime, I'm starting to think of my own ideas of like, Oh, you know, I have this other idea for a setting that I've been wanting to think about, but I'm like, no, I gotta leave that alone. Cause you know, once Jen's ready to come back to this, you know, but sometimes you need to lean into inspiration.
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah. Inspiration happens for a reason. It's like, oh man, this is like a- Absolutely. Like a shot of lightning, kabam. Like, yep, I am going to do this. And I pumped everything, but be intentional about that. And be like, yep, okay. And that's what happened was it was a sudden, inspiring idea. We knew it wasn't going to take too long and relatively speaking.
00:15:25
Speaker
um to to complete it. And um yeah, and it was just it was just too inspiring to let it sit and and not do anything with it. That's tricky. I mean, and and that yeah that balance, right? and And I've found the balance, but it took me ah ah took me many years um because it I like to finish things. And like Darryl, I like to complete campaigns, so I make them shorter. yeah I just kill everyone if I get bored. Like, okay.
00:15:55
Speaker
I've done that. I've short cut it to the end. Yeah. Or I'll shortcut it. I did. I short cut it. Um, the ETU campaign, partly because I felt it was more natural to finish it at that point, but partly because like I didn't want to do another, yeah you know, three plot points and whatever savage jails and whatever. I just didn't want to do it. So I'm like, well, we'll finish it. It makes sense. I can finish it here. We can be done. We can have that big climax and then we can move on to the next thing, whatever that was. I think it was dead lands at that point.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. i'm I'm slogging through a campaign right now, which has each adventure contributes to what's going to happen in the end. and And the final adventure calls upon all the other adventures, like elements from them, whether the characters or items or whatever it might be. And so I'm having a hard time with being able to just skip ahead right because of the way that that that was designed. But I really want to just do that because I'm like, I'm kind of over this and I want to move on to something new. so I think that's a thing that happens with all media. It's not just games, right? Like how many TV shows have you watched? And it's like, all right, they kind of, you know, lope along for about 10 episodes. Yeah. And then like right at the end of the season, you're like, OK, now this is getting pretty good. But it's like, why couldn't you guys just start there? You know, like because.
00:17:15
Speaker
We can, we can, we there's a lot of things to consume out there, adventures, TV and whatever. Like if you don't own me fast. I'm not sticking around to see your cool twist. You gotta earn it. I'm all for like these days having the shorter seasons and having a much more concentrated story that's being told. Yeah, no filler episodes. This is the golden age of television at this point. yeah And it all comes from the BBC model where they just did six episodes in a series and called it good, right? yeah But those six episodes are phenomenal. yeah No wasted time.
00:17:53
Speaker
And now you can pull another idea from the reservoir and work on that. like And I think that's cool. It gives creators more I don't know, like Spark. And it gives consumers a better experience. And it kind of tying it back to RPGs as well as it creates space for more experiences. You know, if you have a shorter season, well, now you've given yourself opportunity to watch something else as well. You're not just invested in that one thing. So similar to a campaign, you know, you got that plot point campaign that's, you know, beginning, middle and end.
00:18:28
Speaker
And you know you can choose to skip all the savage tales and just just do the plot points and then move on to the next thing that you want to try out. And depending on the campaign, that's like six weeks and done. Right. And you're more likely to actually see the end, which is cool. I want to see the end, you know? And you are breathless the whole time, right? Like stuff's happening, like left and right. And you're like, what? Oh my God. but I got to start my character arc now so that I can get to the end and have that, have that experience. So not like just floundering.
00:19:01
Speaker
you know Okay. So ideas, right? we like Like you all were saying, we have like a thousand ideas that we probably pop into our heads of things we want to work on or, or so on, but there is sort of a separation of the wheat from the chaff, right? We got to figure out like, what are the things that we want to, we want to keep that we think there's something here. I want to, I want to explore this more. And then what are the things that like, you know what, that's not necessarily a bad idea.
00:19:27
Speaker
but I just want to, I'm just going to put it aside for now because I can only do so much. Right. And, you know, I think there's, there's, I guess two things that can happen. One is getting stuck on some of those things, like some of those decisions of what you want to keep and and what you want to let go, um, you know, or what you want to develop further. And then, you know, what you want to take away, like what are you like? No, I, this doesn't really belong here.
00:19:53
Speaker
Right. So where where have you all, or what are some situations that you've had where you've had to make those choices and and how did you catch yourself in those moments to say, you know? So one of the exercises that we do when we're stuck, right? And I think this comes from Pixar, but it might not like so many like crazy cro creative things come from Pixar. We do all like yeah it's worth it, right? But the exercise is 10 things.
00:20:20
Speaker
And when you're stuck, like wherever the point that you're stuck at, you then have to be like, okay, let's let's make 10 things that would solve this. And like the first one and the second one and the third one are usually pretty easy because they're the obvious thing. And then the fourth and fifth ones are absolutely brutally hard.
00:20:41
Speaker
And then suddenly it's like a dam breaks. And once you get past that fourth or fifth one, it's just like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, like the last five, because you've taken a step back and you're looking at it in a different way. And all these crazy things are coming from out of left field and they might all be terrible, right? But then you take that list of 10 things.
00:21:06
Speaker
and you start working on it, right? And this is where having people that you trust is awesome. Yeah. Cause you can like have that list and start talking out like, okay, what about this? Like, Oh, I don't know. That doesn't really work for me. Right. But there might be something there, you know? And one of the ways that Shane and I worked so well together is stupid ideas. Cause I will throw out dumb idea after dumb idea.
00:21:33
Speaker
And like I have that weird confidence to be able to do that and be like, yeah, this is stupid, but I'm going to say, right? Right. Right. Being able to do that as I, as a skill, right? Just say, you know what? I'm just going to come up with anything, but being able to recognize and being comfortable with saying, no, that's just dumb. Toss that. But then that dumb thing leads to something awesome. Yes. Someone else picks it up and runs with it and it's like, okay, that's my role is I will add dumb ideas to this and we get gold at the end. Yeah. It's true. I feel like it's almost like playing with clay in a way, right? Where the dumb ideas are you just kind of like,
00:22:13
Speaker
moving it around, you know, and and just sort of seeing what you can, you know, your imagination kind of comes up with. And then eventually something starts forming, you know, that may or may not look like what you were moving around earlier. Yeah. It's just exercising it kind of. I have discovered in a horrifying way that I am in like dead set on iterative process. Yeah. Like make it iterate it or whatever. yeah Yeah. And that is great for writing. It is terrible for building a deck.
00:22:42
Speaker
because you're cutting the wood. And I'm like, oh no, I can massage this. And it's like, oh no, I really can't. It's good for designing the deck you're going to build, but you need to get the design first. Yeah, iterative process has its place. And yeah, like that the Like Darrell said, the the the ideas, they may be they may they they may be stupid, they may be bad, but it starts you on the path and you have to start somewhere. If you if if if you it the opposite of that is sitting there and saying, I'm going to ruminate over this for however long and then reject any stupid idea that comes to my head.
00:23:30
Speaker
Because it has to be perfect, but it can't be perfect. It doesn't exist, right? Yeah. And it doesn't even, I mean, it really helps to have people to bounce these things off of, but you don't need it. it but But you have to be willing to explore the stupid yeah in order to get to the right thing.
00:23:50
Speaker
and have that trust and that safe space to be taught through it. Yes, yes. And sometimes it's just, it's to give yourself that space, is is it's just enough to say, well, this may be a stupid idea. Because then you're then you're releasing the tension right away. You're saying, well, this is my idea. It may be stupid, but I'm going to throw it out there. And then all of a sudden, that that expectations, those pressure, it's gone. And you can look at it from its merits or not.
00:24:18
Speaker
and straight up in finished books, right? Like we have gone off on a tangent, right? Like, did we screw this up? We need to, you know, branch this off and completely redo this section. And then we redo it and then we go, okay, you know what? It was better the way it was before. yep And then, but you're relieved. You're like, okay, no, no. We tried it the other way. Yeah, right. You tested that water, right? Yeah.
00:24:47
Speaker
You get that all the time, like a quarter bear, you know, armchair quarterback is going to be like, well, didn't you think about using exploding dice? And it's like, well, we did, but it's not that kind of game. Here's what happens when you explode dice in this system. Right. Yeah.
00:25:02
Speaker
Yes, we thought about it. Yeah. No, we decided not to, you know, but we tried. And yeah, we've, we've, I know that we've talked about that a little bit, that, that, that going down to that horror, the cave of horrors to discover that your original idea is actually the best idea, but now you know more.
00:25:20
Speaker
Now you understand why it's the best idea. And when people, the haters come out, you've got more confidence in what you do. Yeah, the confidence and the answer. I was like, yep, try that. Here's the problem that you will hit if you try to do it that way. You're absolutely allowed. Like it's your game. Once you bought it, you can do whatever you want, buddy. However. Right.
00:25:41
Speaker
And maybe you're smarter than me. Maybe you figured it out. Maybe for the tone you want, that works great. And I'm not going to discourage you. Go for it. And people do like different levels of complexity and this and that and the other thing. And it's like, yeah, I'm making a game for me. But Well, when you get into, you know, whether it's a um you know an IP or a genre or whatever it might be, um your ideas for that thing can be very different from somebody else's ideas for that thing.
00:26:15
Speaker
And so just because it shares the same name, same nomenclature, same you know jargon or whatever it might be, doesn't mean that the impression that you're trying to give is the impression that they wanted to have. And that's just the nature of the beast, really. It's just going to happen. But I think that's where for the customer, the consumer or whomever, um being okay with just changing the thing. you know If there's something that ah an author, you didn't like that, just change it. you know yeah It's okay. i mean that's good yeah it's good they're not Nobody's going to come and like knock the book out of your hand and slap you in the face. you know so right and yeah and so my like Back to that that idea of of preciousness, like that yeah the it's it's easy to get fixated on what you
00:27:04
Speaker
what you think is the only good idea that you have. This is right and it must be right. or It must be this way. right it has like We need magic to work this way because otherwise, and maybe you do, maybe you do, maybe it is that important. But really, it's okay to look at it and say, you know maybe it doesn't need to be that way. And when you when you at least open up that possibility,
00:27:34
Speaker
Suddenly that log jam that I was talking about that can block your reservoir of ideas can become unjammed. And you can really start to think of a different way where you thought this was the only way, but actually... Yeah, that's a solid point. It's so it's related to that 10 things, right? we Well, yeah. like well Well, a lot of times the problem we're encountering isn't really the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. Yeah. Yep.
00:27:59
Speaker
And so then you know maybe the problem is that thing that you're really invested in and the way you wanted it to work, but you might need to go back and take a look at that and say, you know what? This is creating a lot of ripples that are having negative impacts on these other things. Maybe I do need to just tweak that. If I want this outcome,
00:28:16
Speaker
This might need to move. This might need to budge, you know, something's got to give. so Or it may be something else. Yeah. And who knows? And and ah with HongCluster, I certainly had a couple of those things where i they were there for years and years. And I was like, yeah, this is going to be there. This is a thing. This is gi it's a given. it's it's It's set in stone. And then I realized in a late plot point campaign playtest where I'm like, yeah,
00:28:43
Speaker
This changes the entire dynamic of the end of the game. I've got to get rid of it. And it's it's one of those things I never thought I would get rid of. But I'm like, no, I got 100 million ideas just sitting there in the reservoir if I need them. I can use this idea later in some other form or or I can pick something else or iterate on something else. And and I can get rid of this and still feel able feel confident that yeah I've got a ah better one coming up later. Nothing is ever lost.
00:29:16
Speaker
Like I tend to use just notepad, text pad, you know, I call them slot pads, right? And it's like, if I come up with a weird idea, it's like, I'm just going to put it in the slot pad and forget all about it. And then like a year later, I'll be like, ooh, slot pad. And I'll look through and I'll be like, oh man, that's brilliant. Oh man, I forgot about that. I should have put that in ghost mountain. ah You know,
00:29:42
Speaker
Dang it. you know Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a fascinating thing. Once you, once you start to really develop that confidence in your ability to come up with different ways of doing things, yeah because early on it's really easy to, it's just to sit there. Well, I can't, I've already, this is already precious. I've already honed this and this is perfect and I can't get rid of it. This is a central piece. And really what happens is if you, if you hang onto it too tight,
00:30:11
Speaker
your whole thing can suffer. Right. And and it's scary. Cause like, you know, when you're, when you're looking at that thing that you hold precious and you're starting to kind of second guess it, right? You're like, uh, I don't know if this is the right way. I invested a lot of time and energy into this. Uh, you know, do I need to get rid of this and start over, you know, with this idea or, you know, it in it's, it's a scary thing because you really have to discern in that moment of like,
00:30:41
Speaker
you know, how much do I stay invested versus let me exercise another idea and see if that works. Yeah. And then, and like you said earlier, you might just come back to the original idea anyway, but you got to explore that. That's what the paste board is for. It's like, yeah, we tried that. that's right now Let's go back to the original. It turns out that's not lost.
00:31:02
Speaker
Yeah. Let's go back to version 27 of the file. Yeah. and And the benefit is you verified, right? Yes. Yeah. Darrell's talking about the InDesign file. yeah There's a place on the side of the pages where you'll you'll take out stuff from the text and stick it on the side in the margin where nobody can see it, right? right That it won't be in the book, but you you don't get rid of it.
00:31:26
Speaker
yeah until Until way later, if ever. yeah but But you're iterating, your're you're saving versions right as you go. yeah and And sometimes, most times, when you take that stuff out, and you it makes you feel better to keep it in the pace board for a while, just to make sure it's still there. But ultimately, you realize, yeah, I don't need that at all. I spent hours writing it.
00:31:48
Speaker
yeah But I don't need it. That was part of that was part of the process. It's okay. It's okay. I can write it again if I need to. you know Darwin's texts, right? Be strong or be discarded. So so let's let's talk a little bit about subtracting, right? Because it's it's also easy to have, you know not just one idea that you're invested in, but all these ideas that you're invested in. All the ones, this is your only chance. You're going to put everything in the kitchen. Get it all in there. Right. Exactly. And you know, like, I'll be honest, there's there's a part of me, and I'm still having this conversation with Jan about like, you know, is there too much in, in Explora? You know, are we, are we trying to do too many things that, of the things that we like? And so, you know, I gotta start thinking about like, do we need to subtract?
00:32:31
Speaker
And, um, and that's really scary too. Cause it's like, you don't know how much subtracting might take away from your vision, a but it also might help emphasize the more important parts of your vision, right? Like, you know, you, you give more focus to that really critical thing that makes the setting the one you you know, the unique thing, the different thing that, you know, that is different from everything else. And it gives you somewhere to go in a future product.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yes, right. Yeah, there's a lot of that with hunk cluster like I I'm putting a lot into it like ah it's not it's not kitchen sink ideas I've honed it pretty well, but I'm trying to make it a full and complete product when I crowdfund because it may be the only product there is. It may end up being the only thing I ever do for it. But I've got a whole raft of crazy ideas for different plot points, for development of the setting, where it goes in the future, all this other stuff that they're not developed yet, but they're ideas. And some of them I think are pretty cool ideas. I'll figure out whether they're good when I mess with them. But but that all came from
00:33:45
Speaker
The initial development, right? And some of these are just, yeah, no, I don't have time for that. I don't need it in this. I can stick it somewhere else for later. And neither do the players, right? Like, every player is going to actually engage with about a third of what you do, whether it's a rule or setting stuff or whatever.
00:34:04
Speaker
yeah So like you're already at 33%, the more you add to that, the lower that percentage becomes, because people just check out. Yeah, they might never ever scratch the surface of these other things. Yeah, you've got to draw them in first, and then over time, right System Mastery becomes a thing.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah. You also risk overwhelming. Like if it's all, let's say it's character options, right? And not story, but character options for your setting. Like that, that can be overwhelming. Like, do I want to have this kind of character or do I want to have that kind of character? or Like what am I actually going back to the, what am I supposed to do in this story thing? Right? Like, you know, that's, that can be problematic as well.
00:34:43
Speaker
We wrestled with that in Ghost Mountain a lot, right? Because like they actually have characters that were on the level that we wanted them to be, to be part of this big grand setting, this big adventure. They needed to be veteran. And there's a lot of moving parts on a ghost warden. They've got a couple of different things going on. And that's why we did the archetypes, where it's like, look, man,
00:35:12
Speaker
you know If you really love this, awesome. Make a veteran character and go play. However, most people ain't got time for that. So right here's a place to start. and And it's also a genre that not everybody knows. Is intimate with. Yeah. Yeah. So they don't know where to start.
00:35:33
Speaker
But if you do have system mastery, it becomes like like, okay, no, I can build a character. I can understand this. I can do it and in ah in you know not too much time. But if you don't, then that's what that's what the archetypes are for. It's interesting. like One time I asked Keith, it was it was about Eberron, obviously. And I was like, if you didn't have to write it for D and&D specifically,
00:35:57
Speaker
what would you have changed about it? And his response was, I would have just used humans. And I was like, yeah, I could see that. Like really the only reason why we have all these different, you know, ancestries is because they're part of D and&D and the purpose was to, had to be a D and&D game, you know? um And, you know, Eberron as a whole, it has so many different types of elements to accommodate so many different D and&D things that new players, when they were new GMs, when they come to it, it's overwhelming. And they're like, how do I do, like you'll see in the subreddit, how do I do,
00:36:33
Speaker
a campaign when there's all these things going on. And you know the the school of thought is don't think about all those things, focus on the type of story you wanna tell and focus on those elements only. But that's, you know you don't have that in the book you know necessarily like just screaming at you when you're reading it. You have to- Can you see all this? Ignore this. Right, they're not gonna say that, right? i mean they might They might say, you know focus on the thing you want, but it's like, you you know when you're reading it and you're going through all the different regions and people you know organizations and whatever else, it's a lot. And so I think i think that's where subtracting actually you know can can can help. For you guys, when what what are the signals to you for something to subtract? like what do you when When do you know, yeah, I should probably take that out. I think that might be too much.
00:37:25
Speaker
if Jess doesn't get it, pull it. I love her pieces and she is awesome. Like for exactly that, right? but And I would say my sister too, right? Cause my sister is has zero patience for that kind of thing. yeah And if if she's like,
00:37:46
Speaker
Next is like, okay, I need to, you know, I need to take another whack at this. So this is like, like lore in particular or like character options or any of the above. Yeah. Could be anything. Cause more like some people claim they love lore. And again, there's a system mastery thing, right? But nobody is buying your, you know, fifth edition supplement to read all about how dragons work in your setting.
00:38:16
Speaker
right No one's doing that. There might be a couple people who are, but for the most part, people are like, I don't know, what's the feat that I get to add? you know like yeah like Make this immediate and practical. And lore, likewise, it's like, okay, how does this tie into an adventure?
00:38:39
Speaker
yeah Exactly. If I cannot tie this into an adventure, bye. Yeah. Or if it's not an accessible hook for the GM to use, right? Or something. And ah yeah, I think it's the show don't tell thing, right? if If you have something in lore that's important, then if you can,
00:39:03
Speaker
work it into some kind of a savage tale somewhere so that you can show them, so they can play through what's important about this and experience it. And and so they understand why it's important. They're not reading about the fashion and foods of this nation. They're in the nation.
00:39:19
Speaker
Although, in this adventure, you need to wear the right fashions to not... Sure, right, exactly. yeah Now something is real and it's like, okay, now this matters. it's Now it's something I need to put in the gear list because we have to dress up for the tropics ball auction or whatever. yeah I've got fancy clothes in the gear list and some little extra goodies that make it fun for people to dress up, yeah right?
00:39:42
Speaker
And you don't want to wear fashion from that other nation that they hate. so Right. And this is yeah because they're immersed, because they're, it's part of a thing that they're doing, yeah then they care about it. And it's, it belongs there. If it, if if it's not, then. And now you know, Oh, these people hate these people because I'm wearing the wrong, you know, clothing, the wrong colors, right? Like, okay.
00:40:08
Speaker
Good to know. right There's a tangible effect. like Anytime you can tie it into something that matters on the tabletop, yeah keep it. Yes. yeah i mean I think that's a great rule of thumb because it's so easy to just get caught up.
00:40:23
Speaker
and it's
00:40:27
Speaker
like part of it is it's a give and take, right? It's like, well, I want to create these, these adventures or this campaign to do this. and And here's the trajectory of the campaign or whatever. But I also want this lore because it's important to sort of the, the, the feel of the setting. yeah So now that I have this lore and I want it to be in there, what adventure can I write to incorporate? incorporat So it's, it's both, it, it, it's a give and take, right? yeah I think it,
00:40:56
Speaker
One originates from the other and they and they do they both do that job. But I think if you just have a whole bunch of lore in there that has nothing to do with what the players are going to experience, get rid of it.
00:41:09
Speaker
or save it for later. Yeah, we have all had that con game where the poor GM, bless their heart, literally reads out for 20 minutes. Like the the, you know, here's the important stuff in the setting and it's just like, oh my God, man, no. Yeah. Can you show me? Yeah. Let's just roll some dice. Yeah. Right. Have have my character walk through a room or scene where that's all described. you Yeah. Or they interact with it in some way.
00:41:38
Speaker
you know So, question for you guys, and this is this is something I've had conversations, I think, with you, Tracy, and Keith, and some others, you know, who are designers. What if the idea is the setting itself, and you kind of like say, you know what, I'm not sure, either I'm not feeling it right now,
00:41:57
Speaker
or I'm not sure where this is going, maybe I should focus on something else, or I don't think this is gonna end, and or or I don't think this is gonna get finished, I'm just gonna leave it alone and move on with my life. Do 10 things. Yeah.
00:42:12
Speaker
like what's what What does it take to make this exciting? What are the 10 things? yeah That's good because then it it forces you to look at it from angles that you did not consider before. and But I think also, if if you're not feeling it if it's if it, if it's something you've worked on for a long time or whatever, and suddenly it's just you know like it's falling flat, you're not finding the passion for it anymore, it's okay to lay it aside.
00:42:41
Speaker
start working on something else for a while. Maybe never come back to that. Maybe never, but maybe you never know. Yeah, I was just going to say passion is absolutely crucial. It is crucial to what we do. Like you just cannot robotically, you know, pump out this stuff, right? Like you have to love it. And if you don't love it, like do something else. It's likely not going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good point. And, um, Yeah. Cause I think there's also value to the fact that you did work on some and those ideas aren't wasted. yeah They might, they might influence other work that you do. Right. So it's not, it's not wasted effort and wasted time or literally six months. You sort of bolt upright and go, ah,
00:43:28
Speaker
And then it's like right there and you just pick it up and keep going. It's like, what it didn't why didn't I think of this before? The answer was right in front of me. And and and and then suddenly the passion returns and you've got a great idea and and you're picking it up and you're finishing it. I think it's ah it's it's not only okay to do that, it's important to do it, to lay aside what is not working And then go to your passion place or take a break or whatever it is, go play video games for two months or whatever. yeah And then come back and then see where you are. It's okay. Like man, this is especially when you're not like on the clock.
00:44:06
Speaker
or under pressure to produce you know content for your setting that's already out there or whatever. Like thinking about the episode we covered with Brandon about you know licensing IPs and whatnot. yeah That's not really a scenario where you can really do that. that's yeah It's just much harder. yeah You do it in a different way. Yeah, and but happily with an IP, you came into it loving it.
00:44:28
Speaker
Like it's freaking Star Wars. I love Star Wars. Like, yeah okay, great. you know And if you don't love Star Wars, you're probably not the right person to write Star Wars. Yeah. I think, I think the scariest thing is I love Star Wars. I'm not loving this project, right? Like maybe this is harder than I thought it was going to be or, you know, like what, you know, we talked about this, what Star Wars means to different people is different things, you know? and What it means to you is what's important.
00:44:56
Speaker
yeah The author has a voice. Exactly. Right. People buy books written by an author and they start learning the names of the author to know, I'm going to make that work. That's terrible. I'm never going to hide. I don't ever want to read Christian's work again. Oh, yeah. As I said, I was going to use me like, oh my God, another terrible plot point. Forget it. Oh man. But but it matters, right? And people yeah will trust you Cause they know you've got a point of view and art needs to have a point of view. And this is art. yeah yeah Anything else, Christian? Well, I think, you know, with design in general, uh, I had a web designer friend, a coworker who, um,
00:45:40
Speaker
the line he told me that he taught me, I'll say, was, good design is taking away until you can't anymore. Meaning like you still have the essence of the thing you're designing. um And so sometimes I think about that when I'm thinking about whether it's web design, writing, or whatever. It's like,
00:45:58
Speaker
do I need all this stuff? I'll challenge that. like Can I take this out and will will does it affect the story if I do? and Sometimes you know it might not even be a thing of I don't like that thing, it's just like I don't need that thing and this will simplify things for me greatly. you know so I think there's some value to that. like Challenge your assumptions about what you're including and and whether or not it's it's really needed because I think the simpler your work is, the easier it is for others to, you know I guess, absorb it.
00:46:30
Speaker
I am a big fan of, you know, on poetry, Samuel Pepys, and he wrote a poem on how to criticize poetry. And the line from it that is indelibly carved into my brain is, true wit is nature to best advantage dressed, but oft was said, but never so well expressed.
00:46:53
Speaker
yeah And that's what we have to try for. We might not succeed, right? But true, it is worth chasing. Yes. Yeah. That's good. I like that. Well, on that note, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server.
00:47:19
Speaker
Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems, because you're bound to solve a few along the way.