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Problem #15: Creating Compelling NPCs
168 Plays1 month ago
Kristian and Tracy are joined by Dot Moore, writer and producer of the Bite Sized Tales podcast, as well as player and producer of the Resting Glitch Face actual play podcast. In this episode we talk about creating compelling NPCs from the perspective of the RPG designer. How do you write and express characters for your adventures in a way that helps the GM make them engaging, useful, and irresistible (both as friends and foes) to the players. We get into a deep discussion about various philosophies surrounding this surprisingly complex subject, along with multiple ways you can present your NPCs based on what's important to YOU. As usual, the bottom line is, "it depends..."
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Episode Focus
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm k Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this character spotlight. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 15, creating compelling NPCs.
Guest Introduction: Dot Moore Joins the Discussion
00:00:43
Speaker
So with us, we have another very special guest. so We do. like We've had several so far, but this one i'm I'm excited about as well. And we have the lovely Dot Moore with us. She's an author, member of the Bite Size Tales podcast, and producer and player for the actual play podcast. My favorite title of any podcast ever, Resting Glitch Face. Welcome, Dot. Oh, thank you. Is it really your favorite?
00:01:11
Speaker
It's such a cool like play on words. I love it. Oh man. So we had, we put out, a poll or like ah a, we were reaching out to our community um and we were like, Hey, give us name suggestions. Cause we needed just a runner group name. That's what we were looking for to start. And that's what we were going to name the show after. And I think someone said like glitch girls was one of the suggestions. And then from there we were like, Oh no, resting glitch face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Absolutely love it. Great play on words.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. We're excited to have you. Yeah. So you're our expert, because we're all experts here. And we're going to talk about making NPCs memorable for players. And not just from the GM perspective, because again, we're talking about design, right? Like game design. So, you know, how are we...
00:02:11
Speaker
How are we supposed to make these NPCs that we create for our world that some other GM is going to be running? Interesting, obviously interesting and compelling, not just for the GM, but for the players as well. Right. And so that they express the idea of that NPC in the game that we design.
How to Make NPCs Memorable
00:02:31
Speaker
So, Dot, what, what makes an NPC memorable?
00:02:36
Speaker
Well, I mean, as a professional player, um i I think ah sometimes honestly, ah sometimes honestly, it's as simple as an accent because it's just it is entertaining. So you're drawn in to that. um Other times, actions speak louder than words. So if you have ah those NPCs that like step into the line of fire or what have you or you they're written in such a way to take on those kinds of personality traits. I think that often will create that connection to players because
00:03:20
Speaker
there's something else for them to draw off of, right? So like if if it is an accent, for example, well, then you have not only just the player your characters that like if you're in that mindset, you're thinking, OK, well, like there has to be some level of outsider or history, or like where is this where is this NPC from that they would speak this way? But then from the actual human player perspective, it's, OK, I can I can actually let go a little bit. The GM is putting themselves out there enough to do this accent, to do this somewhat silly thing in a vulnerable context. I can i can express myself creatively that way too.
00:04:05
Speaker
yeah I feel like it doesn't necessarily even have to be an accent. It could just be the um presentation, yeah like you manner mannerism the mannerisms, the demeanor of the character. um i've i've as a gm I know we're trying to speak as designers, but as a GM, I've had NPCs where it's more about the energy of the character than even any kind of accent that I'm trying to put on. um And that you know leaves an impression on the players, like where they're like, I want to interact with that NPC again. yeah I know they're just some small bit NPC, but I want to interact
GM Comfort Levels in NPC Acting
00:04:41
Speaker
with them again. Yeah, right. And and so we but i think I think it's okay to to branch into the GMing part of this because
00:04:50
Speaker
um this is This is something that I've struggled with over over the course of creating HonCluster, especially, but also just all my adventures in the way I deal with NPCs as a designer. I, as a GM, am a theater person. I i have a theater degree. I have two theater degrees. you know i'm I'm a trained actor.
00:05:16
Speaker
So I like to act. Darryl, my one of my best friends, is the same way. We are both actors when we go to the table. And when we play NPCs, we act them. That is not the case for a lot of GMs. A lot of GMs don't feel that comfortable. And to me, that that was surprising to learn. It's like how many how many GMs are not comfortable doing that.
00:05:44
Speaker
Um, like, and how many players are not comfortable doing it? Like they they just don't, they just, it's not in them or, or they've never been taught how to do it or they just don't care to do it. Right. And it's, it's it's a weird thing. And I think this is worth talking about because at conventions, what I found, this is fascinating.
00:06:02
Speaker
when I played like Harry Potter or whatever, and I've run my game with Harry Potter and i've i've I've played these characters, these NPCs that you're supposed to interact with to get clues from to to solve this particular mystery. And I've just overacted it, right? I've just gone all the way in where the sky is just arrogant, he's got his robes on, he's all muscly, he's all like acting like he's God's gift.
00:06:28
Speaker
And I stand up and I act it out like Chris Hussey does when he goes to the table. And i've had I've had a player who's sort of either new to my game or or new to role-playing or whatever just look at me like does does this deer in the headlights look.
00:06:48
Speaker
and actually tell me, i I can't match that. I can't respond to that. There's no way that I can match what you just did. I'm like, no, no, no. There's no reason for you to match what I just did. That's not the expectation. That's not what I'm hoping for here. That's not the expectation for you as a player. You don't have to do that. I'm doing this because I love it. I'm doing this because I want to entertain you and I want to make this fun for you.
00:07:13
Speaker
right You can say, my character does this, and that's great. right But I think the reason I want to mention this is because as a designer, I have found that you have to make a decision one way or the other about how you're going to present these NPCs.
00:07:34
Speaker
Not all GMs can act this stuff out or want to. Some of them will want to paraphrase and just be very low key about how they present the NPCs. yeah Some people will want to act it out and and be bombastic and do the things that I do at the table. How do you write for that? and I've found And I may be wrong. I may just not have figured this out yet. I still am in the process of figuring this out. How to accommodate both types of GMs. It's really tough. And I've found that I i error on the side of performance and presentation, yeah for better or worse. I would like your guys' thoughts on that.
Balancing Detail and Creative Freedom in NPC Design
00:08:20
Speaker
well there you can If you give more, there's always an opportunity for that GM to say, okay, but I want less, right? If if you give more and they they read what you have in this adventure and they just determine ah I like this NPC. I want to include it in this game. I want to make sure that I do it justice, but this is a little over my line of comfortability as a GM. They have the option to reel it in to meet their needs as a GM. like that's their That's their creative license, right?
00:09:01
Speaker
but if you don't give enough as a writer, as a creator, as a designer, then you leave so much up for interpretation so that any GM that's running your game is gonna run that NPC differently. So let's say that it is a con of it. I mean, I would presume that any GM is gonna run any NPC differently regardless. But if you don't give enough,
00:09:27
Speaker
up front, let's say you end up at a con event for whatever reason, you are in this game as a like just to see how another GM is running your game just to experience, just to test and see, you know, how how did I do in writing this? What what is your interpretation of what I have created? Right.
00:09:51
Speaker
And it is a situation where you haven't given enough, and that GM completely takes your NPC away from you. like it It is no longer recognizable to you as the creator, as the designer, as the writer, what have you.
00:10:06
Speaker
Well, had you just given that more... See, I'm with you, Tracy. I'm i'm always going to err on the side of, I want more. I want you know decades' worth of background for an NPC. I don't want that. ah but I'll get into that later, but go ahead. yeah yeah i think that then gives you still have the creative license and the freedom to do what you want as the GM with that NPC, but within the guidelines of how the NPC was made to be played or made to be portrayed. There's not as much delineation from, but this is who this is to this story. What do you think, Christian?
00:10:55
Speaker
Well, I think... Are you an actor? I have acted. Yeah, I was in high school. i did I did acting. Do you do it at the table? I do it at the table. Well, you saw it at GameHoleCon. Yeah, when I did. My character ah did an impression of... um Oh, God, what's the...
00:11:14
Speaker
the equivalent of Superman in the setting that in the game. there Oh, Captain Crush. Captain Crush. Exactly. He did an impression of Captain Crush. Nice. I had a chameleon ability. and Anyway, but what i i it reminds me a little bit about something you and I spoke about some time back. and I don't remember if it was on an episode or just in a private conversation where we were talking about um the The experience that I had in playing your game and saying, oh, no, this is an awesome game. This is an awesome con cluster is awesome. I experienced it and so on. And your concern was, well, is that because of the game or is that because of how I'm presenting it as the GM and designer, right? Which is fair. and And I think, um, I think that is a, that is a scary thing, right? Cause like, okay.
00:12:01
Speaker
I know how to bring this character out because I designed the character. But does somebody else have enough info here to to be able to do the same? Whether they role play it or just describe it either way, right do they do they have enough information to do the same? So my takeaway is, and I'm planning to do this with NPCs in Explorer, where um the GM in in this GM section, when when we talk about the different NPCs and so on,
00:12:29
Speaker
It's not enough to just say, this is so-and-so, this is what they do, etc. this is so-and-so they have you know they're They're very like maybe a bombastic personality, they're very energetic, very welcoming, loving you know with the people they work with. Whatever it is that you want to emphasize, right you're you're coloring that.
00:12:49
Speaker
for the GM to then take in, you know, whether they and they interpret it in their own way or closely to what you're trying to present, they have something to know how is that character supposed to be played. In an adventure... I think there's ways to introduce characters where like say, for example, as the as the players are ah approaching the scene, you can have maybe there's something happening that that that that NPC is doing that they you know you can describe in words or whatever to demonstrate their personality. and So for example, how that NPC walks in the room, what they do first, how do they interact with the NPCs? that you know
00:13:30
Speaker
Do they come in very like stoic and presented or are they very warm and welcoming? you know those are Those are descriptors that we can give in the content to help the GM then express that character the way we designed it to be.
00:13:44
Speaker
yeah yeah i this is like What Dot was saying and what you were saying a little bit comes down to the show versus tell thing. Yes, exactly. I literally wrote that down. Thinking about this. You know, a lot of people out there, i've I've heard these arguments and I've heard, you know, like bullet points, use bullet points. Just tell me what I need to know. Give me the the high level things that I need to express about this character. I'm like, yeah, OK, I do that. So I did that with Captain Crush.
00:14:17
Speaker
I say, here's the three major things about Captain Crush that you kind of have to express to the players through your mannerisms and through the way you do talk. I also have some read-alouds for Captain Crush, so I actually you know have quotes so that I, as the GM, me, the actor, can act Captain Crush out with words that I have written so that I i can i can remember them. you know And to me, that's showing the character.
00:14:47
Speaker
And in Honcluster, I've definitely gone to the side of show versus tell, meaning I'm going to give you a read aloud of the quote of what this character says. Yeah. Because I, as the GM, want to act it out and and I express so much more in what they say and how they say it than I can in bullet points. That's a choice.
00:15:13
Speaker
It's a tough choice because there are a lot of people who are just like, oh, this is so much read aloud text. you know I don't want to just read to my players. Don't read to your players, act to your players. But I can't expect that of every GM. So what I think i i what i think they need to do is is what I encourage them to do in Honk Luster is sort of read through the read aloud.
00:15:35
Speaker
And then if you want to paraphrase it, paraphrase it. right but you have the impression If you want to use your own bullet points, use your own bullet points, but I'm going to give you this because this is showing versus telling. That's that's my choice. It may be the wrong choice, but it's the it's the way it is. it's I have to do it that way. But anyway, your thoughts on that, because that's that's I feel like there I have to do it either one way or the other, I think.
00:16:03
Speaker
um I mean, I think of NPCs as like the GM's voice and influence without becoming narrative, right? So you have... Yes, you have those bullet points. Yes, you have the, the you know, block text of whatever it is that you are wanting that character to embody in a quote, right? But when it comes to like in-game interaction,
00:16:32
Speaker
A lot of times NPCs are the vehicle for which the story progresses because it's the GM guiding using a ah character interacting with the players. yeahp right yeah right So, you know, sometimes I think kind of what we're talking about is two different experiences, one shots versus campaigns, right? And I know that we probably will get to that more in depth at some point, but so far, like,
00:17:01
Speaker
My perception of what is being discussed is like ah akin to a one-shot adventure. right though Those NPCs that are you know specifically pointed out and detailed to a degree, that is, this is what this NPC is specifically for, this is their end goal, this is what will happen. Whereas with a campaign,
00:17:25
Speaker
And NPC's motives and NPC's intentions can change throughout a campaign. They can start off by having the best of intentions to, you know, assist, aid the party. um And then by the end of the campaign, everyone hates them and they're trying to find a way to get them kicked out, I guess is the nicest way to put that. Okay, kicked out of what, Todd? Life. Life kicked out of
NPC Roles in Different Adventure Types
00:17:52
Speaker
life. Sure.
00:17:56
Speaker
kicked out of existence, okay, bye. But I mean, I i i think it's it's two sides of the same coin, right? Like either you develop your NPCs to such a degree that you are able to know every single choice or every action that that character is going to make during a game session or it is so loose and so moldable of a character that it is adaptive to exactly what the PCs need them to be. Right. Well, I think there's something to you know providing ah the GM and the written material enough substance about an NPC that, you know,
00:18:44
Speaker
really what, what their goals there. It's not enough to just be like, they're the bad guy. They're doing this. Like, why are they doing that? Right? What is their, what is their goal? Um, and then we've talked about this as like, what is their motivation and what are their resources right at their disposal? Because that gives the GM then flexibility like you're speaking to, to then know how to pivot, how to adjust, how to approach running that NPC.
00:19:09
Speaker
if they know those things. If they know intrinsically what's the ultimate goal or or the what's driving that NPC and what are they going to use at their disposal to achieve that goal, then that gives the GM plenty to to work with. um I think sometimes there's there's risk where if you don't have enough of just to even about their personality though, yeah, you see that information, but then you're like, but how do I play them?
00:19:40
Speaker
e you know how do I present them when the and when the PCs interact with that NPC? yeah that that And I think that's where the the demonstration, the show, Don't Tell comes into play. you know give Give some flavor behind that you know that character. are they Are they dark and brooding? Are they you know light and energetic? are they you know like what you know What's their persona, I guess?
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for me, my what I often do, and I'm looking at this from a perspective of, oh, this is what I've done in the past, um is the initial introduction to the character usually is accompanied by some kind of read aloud, if it's an important character. Like the Reverend Jebediah, what's his name, and Savior of Hollowoke, there's a long read aloud text there.
00:20:36
Speaker
I think it's awesome. I really, really do. But it' it's awesome because when it's acted out, it tells the PCs so much, not only about him, but about the adventure, about what the problem is, about all this stuff that's going on in an immersive way, rather than trying to just sort of over the top describe what he's saying. I prefer that.
00:21:06
Speaker
Right? i just I just do. And and it's it's it may be alienating to some players. And I and i and i worry about that. i I constantly have torn my hair out about how to handle this in HongCluster. And I'm still thinking about it. I'm still like, can i is there a hybrid? Can I put a little magnifying glass next to paragraphs and read aloud text that is like, this is critical stuff? Maybe.
00:21:33
Speaker
But if i the minute I put a magnifying glass next to one or two paragraphs in a four paragraph read aloud, it seems to everybody else that those other two paragraphs are just throw away, why do we have it here in the first? And that's just not the case. It's not the case. You tell them.
00:21:50
Speaker
I mean, it it's it's just not. It's all important. This is just more important. It's all yeah important. right But if you want, and and I've tried it, I've put it in the book. i've i'm I'm sort of the sitting with it right now and I'm having J.M. look at it and see, like, is this helpful or am I shooting myself in the foot? And and it's it's, I don't know. that's that's i Not to belabor the point, but it is one of those critical things as a designer that you have to face. It's like, do we just do bullet points and let the GM go crazy with the character the way they want to? Or do you buha put a ah quote so that so that they have a more defined sort of personality and presentation?
00:22:38
Speaker
somewhere in the middle. like I think that's a continuum that you have to choose, not necessarily a continuum that you should choose one or the other, I think. I don't know. I don't know. i'ming I'm belaboring the point, but it's one of those things that's really been on my mind and I think is an important discussion topic um for people who are designing adventures who want to incorporate NPCs is a major part. No, I think you're on point with with respect to um calling out those things. And I'm just trying to think of maybe maybe there's approaches that we haven't, that any designer hasn't thought of, or maybe they haven't, I just haven't seen it yet. In terms of saying, here are some of the most important things that you need to know about this NPC, right? In terms of presenting a call out that says, a sidebar that says,
00:23:29
Speaker
this is how this NPC should be presented. The closest thing I've seen, and I've seen this in some 5e adventures where you know at the bottom of like a description of ah of an NPC, they'll have their, I forgot what they call them, but it's like, I don't know, flaws or or or like personality traits or something to that effect. I wish I could remember what it's called. um But it's an interesting way to kind of like bring a little bit of extra life to those characters, yeah um to get a real understanding of what's driving them. you know and i And I think having that called out in just a small little spot really kind of goes a long way. And and I wonder if maybe as game designers that that needs to be employed more in some form or another.
00:24:18
Speaker
maybe not needs to be, but if that's just a good additive way to to, if there is an NPC that really needs to have that, you know, have the personality expressed, that might be a good way to do that.
00:24:30
Speaker
one of the, um, one of the projects that i I did have to step away from. And I do, I do have every intention to hopefully go back to it. Um, it's just right now is not the time. Um, but one of the projects was a splat book for, um, a, uh, indie cyberpunk game. Um, I'm not going to get into names because it's not released yet. So that's, you know, sure.
00:24:58
Speaker
That's theirs. But one of the ways that we were approaching this distantly um is by using fiction in between the actual game mechanics. So it was like alternating every couple of chapters, there would be an extensive chapter of fiction that essentially gave the reader, the GM, whoever is absorbing this material, more of a in-action understanding of how these characters were supposed to work. Now, a lot of that can apply to the player characters, but in the same sentence, like if you're building an NPC just like you would any other player character to involve in a campaign or in a one-shot, then
00:25:51
Speaker
You know, you've got all of those tools available to you, plus the added element of that fiction in order to kind of get an idea of, OK, this is the this is the setting that this would be taking it place in. This is the experiences that some of these other characters have gone through. How do I make my own NPC or my own characters that would fit in this kind of a world, but also be relevant to the people that I'm going to have at the table with me?
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah. So Cyberpunk Red actually does that. So they have ah sections of fiction, I think at the beginning of every chapter, certainly at the beginning of the book where they're where they're setting out like, oh, let's talk about ah ah you know the adventures of Johnny Silverhand you know and and sort of going through a a scenario
Using Fiction for Immersive NPC Roles
00:26:43
Speaker
of action and stuff and with dialogue that uses the language of cyberpunk, which is very specific and gets you an idea of how it feels. right so I don't know that I respond to that so much, but that's that said, like this is what we're talking about. like Some people don't respond to certain things and some people love certain things. so That was their choice. They made that choice and you know they're selling lots of games, so I can't complain about it. but
00:27:12
Speaker
um yeah But yeah, so that's that's definitely a way to go. And it definitely does a show versus tell and gets you immersed and gets you an idea of how to play a character in that setting. Right. Or or yeah, how to how to be a a character in general yeah in that setting. yeah Yeah. Like what does it feel like to be in that world, right? Yeah. And I think i think there are settings like Cyberpunk Red is is definitely a setting that warrants that.
00:27:36
Speaker
yeah it's Because sometimes you look at it and you're like, what is it like to be in this world? Like, how do I, yeah it it's it feels so foreign, you don't know how to approach it. Yeah. yeah And like like we've talked about and hinted at, it's not just what pc motivat or NPC motivations are or what their resources are, it's what they're trying to communicate to you. Like like Dot has said, the NPCs are the GM's conduit through which they express certain things in the story. like They could be quest givers. They could be giving you valuable information of some kind. They could be um ah people you're trying to help. you know it's it's It's any number of reasons and purposes that they serve. right And some of those, ah like we have written down because Dot made a great outline for us. Oh my gosh.
00:28:31
Speaker
um you know like quest givers. And we've talked about that before. And it's a very flippant, generic term, but it's it's it's a very valuable use for NPCs. And the more immersive you can make them, the more interesting you can make them, the more all that disappears. The more the more that mechanic part of this disappears for the players and they get immersed.
00:29:01
Speaker
If I can, I have a really interesting example of this. um So Eric, who also GMs for Rest English Face, um many years ago ran a Conan campaign for us. And i have i have I have spoken many a times of the adventures of my character, Creepo.
00:29:25
Speaker
as she is lovingly referred to as. um Very early on in the campaign, I fell for the Ooh Shiny Trap because I do it every time. You can place something on a pedestal you know very quaintly lit by moonlight and I'm gonna want it every time.
00:29:49
Speaker
I don't think that NPC stops at a sentient like humanoid figure because the dagger that my, the cursed dagger that my character had throughout the majority of that campaign There was interaction between the two of us. There was a symbiotic relationship that had formed there.
00:30:18
Speaker
and that was a lot more to do with my own character's development based off of what that dagger or how Eric was portraying the relationship that my character had to that dagger. And it, it, it spoke to me. It like, I interacted with the GM outside of just like, I've, it it does, you know, X amount of hit points, right? Like,
00:30:49
Speaker
there there was more to the development of that relationship. And then going on to the extent of labeling NPCs as quest givers, um the dagger was stolen. like It was stolen from me at one point, and my character's motivations turned entirely to, I want it back. And so an inanimate object that you know is cursed beyond all reasonable belief um then became my motivation for where we went next. It doesn't just have to end at, you know, the barmaid, right? Right. And like other purposes they serve is creating emotional stakes. When you do it well, you can do it cheaply, right? You can do the little girl in the tavern who's lost her parents, right? And, and do that in a very 2D kind of like,
00:31:44
Speaker
Obviously, you're going to care about the little girl kind of way, or you can create a personality for the girl to and the relationship she's had and all this other stuff. like and Again, show, don't tell, where suddenly you really actually do care about her, and all of a sudden it becomes an immersive thing.
00:32:02
Speaker
It's not just a, oh, this is obviously just the little girl and now she's going to take over all her questing because, you know, it's it's like, this is what we do because it's the child involved. And now my agency is taken away, but which I've heard people say, right? And I'm like, no, no, make it real. And part of that making it real to me is it at least giving you some good bullet points about what that personality is.
Read-Aloud Texts for NPC Development
00:32:32
Speaker
And in another way, do some read aloud and actor out, you know, like, you know, and, and like I say, my read alouds tend to be at the very beginning. I established a character and then the GM is on their own to sort of develop it or change it based on what happens in the, in the story or the campaign as it goes. There are a few very specific characters that all have, um, multiple read alouds for as the campaign goes on. Like Kaylee Preston has several.
00:33:03
Speaker
But she's a very stable character. She's not going to be too involved in what the PCs do on a day-to-day basis, but she is there and she's around. And she's important, right? But the most of them are just like, they're still around, but I've introduced them and now that I've introduced them, I kind of leave them alone and now the GM can go with where where they want. But then now they know how to talk.
00:33:26
Speaker
They know their accents. They know this guy is arrogant and presents like a teacher who's teaching you like you're an idiot, you know, like in that that personality carries through and GM can do something with that. But anyway, I'm rambling. But this is this is a passionate topic for me. And I think it's passionate for Dot, especially to which is why we had Ron. But yeah, so I don't know. It's I feel like I'm being defensive.
00:33:55
Speaker
about the way I do things, but at the same time, like I can't imagine doing it any other way. I think when it's important to the story and and who this person is and the role that they play in the world and and the story itself, I think it is important to to have that investment you know then for it to not just be, yeah, this is just the person that gave you the job.
00:34:17
Speaker
yeah Yeah. and And lots of people play that way. Lots of people don't don't don't have that emotional investment in the game or in the in the play in the characters in the game. Lots of people. And that's fine. That's that's that's not your problem to solve as a designer. like this That's up to them what experience they want. yeah But you want it what you're what we're trying to do is give the opportunity you know, that if they do want to go further with it, again, they have the tools available. Yeah, I do. so yeah So the, the other thing I'm kind of wondering about is how do we as designers know which and PCs are important to flush out like this?
00:35:01
Speaker
Cause sometimes you have, you know, you have like the main NPC, like Trinity's Mustang, you have Trinity, yeah right? That one you have to have, person she's personality. I do. And and the weird thing about Trinity's Mustang is she doesn't have any read aloud at all.
00:35:14
Speaker
Interesting no, read okay, so yeah, I'm gonna ask you more about that offline so What a great example, right? It's weird. It's just one of those things I just don't have it completely contradicts to everything Tracy said this entire time so just like re Reinventing the wheel every time and write you know it just so' no hard and fast rules You do what you want But Haley is a good example. haley is yeah she's She's telling you a whole something's stories about her history and stuff that is really meant to engage with her emotionally. it's right it's It's not meant to give you any kind of relevant information to what you're going to do in the campaign.
00:35:54
Speaker
It's all about getting to know her and getting to care about her. And important, at least for her. Sometimes, though, you have an NPC that's like, oh, you need to go to this shop and get this information from this person.
00:36:10
Speaker
right yeah Is that NPC, that's the only time that they're going to interact with them, is it important to flush out simply because it's it gives the GM kind of fuel to do something more with it? Or do you as a designer just kind of gloss over it, give some bullet points, move on because you got a more important story to tell? I think it can be either.
00:36:33
Speaker
i think i i think ah I think a designer could say, okay, and and in the style guide for Pinnacle, they say, you know, put puts ah put two bullet points about their personality. yeah That way the GM knows enough to make it a personality and then whatever information they've got to give, they give it, done, done, finished, let the GM worry about the rest, right? yeah But in some cases it could be, um they you'll only meet them once maybe,
00:37:00
Speaker
But it might be worth fleshing out a little bit to um give give them the information in a more interesting way. Yeah.
00:37:12
Speaker
you know, or or for whatever reason, it could be it could be lots of reasons to do more or less with a particular NPC. yeah Well, and you also have those instances where it doesn't matter how much the GM or the designer has fleshed out the NPC if the players at the table want that NPC to be their new bestie and informing them throughout the remainder of the campaign, that's what's gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, and then that's on the GM.
00:37:42
Speaker
yeah that that's all comes gm problem so then it it it It all comes full circle back to how much do you actually give, right? So yeah, if it is one of those one-off NPCs, do you put in there like,
00:37:57
Speaker
Do with this what you will. If your players latch onto this for some reason, have have the you know creative agency to just roll with it. But then for the bigger ones, bigger ones like for the more poignant NPCs, I guess that's a better way to phrase that, um develop it more. Give give more.
00:38:19
Speaker
yeah because Even if it's a situation where you're not using that more for that NPC, you still have that fuel to maybe associate to this other NPC, right? Yeah. yeah i just's it's that's Everybody does it differently and everybody plays it differently. It's just me. It's the way I would like to do it. right you know And I think that I guess the point we're making is that all this is valid, but NPCs are valuable, valuable tools.
NPCs as Essential Tools in RPGs
00:38:50
Speaker
in these things that we're trying to create. They can be. They don't have to be, they don't but but they can be. And and don't neglect them is, is I guess, what what I would say. And I think what all of us would say, if you if you can. Doesn't have to be big read-alouds like I do. It can be just a couple of bullet points like the style guide says. Give them something, just something. So the GM has something to grab on to so that when the players, like Dot says,
00:39:18
Speaker
grab onto them, whether whether you like it or not, you've got something to go on. You've got something to go on, yeah. And for the love of all that I ask, don't name your NPCs Jerry. For all of the resting glitch face listeners out there, you'll understand what that means. You know why, but just stay away from Jerry. We have enough of them. It's fine.
00:39:39
Speaker
Okay. Nice inside joke there. You're welcome. I know a lot of people that will listen to this that will get that joke and it brings me joy. Don't worry about isolating the rest of the audience. That's okay. No, this is a very pointed plug. This is, go listen to my podcast so that you know what the joke is. Then you'll be cool like the rest of us. Exactly. Now you're getting it. Anything else? I'm sure we're missing lots because we concentrated on this one thing. I can't believe I didn't get one single chance to bring up Chris Hesse, but you did it for me, Tracy, so that's fine. I did. He's very, very good at this. Yes. I like to think that I'm pretty good at it, too. I need to play in one of his games. I haven't done that. I would highly recommend it. You should. Yeah. I did take the time to make a note in my outline notes about Repoman, who was the creepy stash guy from this Frawl Runners game. I was going to bring him up for you, Tracy. Great.
00:40:37
Speaker
You're welcome. Darryl's also very good at this. My friend, kim Camden Wright is very good at this, is creating NPCs that are super compelling on at the table that makes you want to spend more time with them. yeah you know it's just like i just darry's Darryl's whatever, in Necessary Evil 3, he's got this this personality changing robot or whatever that that changes its personality. Head is and stuff. I think I can't remember off, but but watching Daryl play it is hysterical. Yeah, I just want to spend more time with that. I would pay money to see that. I think I remember seeing that from across the room at Game Hall. Was it last year or the year before? I can't remember, but I do think I remember seeing that in action at some point. Yeah, he's very good at it. It makes me happy. It brings me joy to watch him GM a game, because especially for other people who don't get to see him all the time, I just love to watch him interact with people who enjoy him. And I just love it. I love it. Well, Dot, thank you so, so much for doing this. Thank you. And we appreciate you being our expert for the show.
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you very much. I did my best. you Happy to be here. Sure. We'll probably have you back. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably is really heavy handed. that's something Every guest we've had, and we, we, we, yeah they've all been great and we've always, we, we have plans to bring him back for something. Yeah. No, I'd be happy to. I love this stuff. Cool. Very cool.
00:42:18
Speaker
Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server. Please come by, join the discussion and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems because you're bound to solve a few along the way.