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With Andy Kind
77 Plays5 years ago
Your hosts Andy Bannister and Kristi Mair are joined by Andy Kind for this episode of the Persuasive Evangelism Podcast, recorded live at CreationFest 2019.
Andy Kind is a preacher and stand-up comedian. As well as travelling the world telling jokes and talking about Jesus, he lives in Chesterfield and is on the staff of Redeemer King church. Find him @andykindcomedy or andykind.co.uk
Questions about the show? Contact Andy on Twitter @andygbannister
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Transcript
Introduction of Andy Kynes
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. My name is Kristy Mayer and I'm joined by my co-host Andy Bannister. We're here live at Creation Fest in the middle of Cornwall and we have a special guest today, Andy Kynes. It's great to have you with us, Andy. It's so nice to be with both of you. It is, isn't it? This is such a joy. We were just joking around earlier on, so it's amazing that we're actually able to record this now. Andy, we have many questions for you.
Journey to Comedy and Preaching
00:00:34
Speaker
many questions many questions now who are you are you an evangelist are you a comedian what how do we make sense of those two things yeah well i am i am many things um you can be many things simultaneously can't you um i am i started comedy 15 years ago so i became i became a christian at the age of 22 and felt led into comedy which is the simplest way of putting that and um
00:01:00
Speaker
So I've been doing comedy for 15 years and the aim was always to be on Live at the Apollo and Motley Week and things like that. And I did do a lot of gigs for churches and who can continue to do that.
00:01:13
Speaker
a lot of outreach events and alpha events and that's been great but the plan was never to expand that into preaching or evangelism. I love doing comedy and still do and then a few years ago now I felt as though God wanted me to start preaching and I didn't want to do that because for me that felt like
00:01:36
Speaker
At the time, it felt like a step down. Part of me felt like I was having to concede defeat that I wasn't going to be on Live at the Apollo and Mock the Week. And I almost was. I got quite close to those things, but didn't quite get there. And a miss is as good as a mile. So I didn't want to do it at first.
00:01:58
Speaker
But then, you know, these things weigh on you, don't they? You know, C.S. Lewis' conversion story of how he just felt this sort of presence bearing down on him. And so sort of paraphrase C.S. Lewis, I am the most reluctant preacher in all of England in some ways. But equally, I've been preaching for three years now and doing evangelism alongside it.
00:02:22
Speaker
And it's what I want to do for the rest of my life. So ironically, comedy has been my warm up act and my support act.
The 'Promedian' Role
00:02:30
Speaker
So the branding I use is Promedian, preacher and comedian. But I am both a preacher and a comedian. And as long as people don't use the phrase Christian comedian,
00:02:42
Speaker
Because I think the connotations associated with that, the connotations conjured up when you hear Christian comedian. I think they're a bit cheesy and that's not what I do. I'm massively aggressive on stage. So I think... There's blood all over the stage. It's like Game of Thrones whenever I'm on stage. But yeah, I think preacher and comedian, premedian, just a helpful compound now.
00:03:07
Speaker
The thing that intrigues me is, are there things that you learn in comedy that actually work out as a preacher? Because in a sense, preaching in comedy, one thing they have in common is communicating. You're trying to make people think, you're trying to challenge presumptions. Are there things that you learn from your time on the comedy circuit that you find yourself going, that's really interesting. Some of that applies in the pulpit when you're engaging folks. Yes, I think the skill set
00:03:32
Speaker
is the same but the character set is different so comedy is self-elevating it has to be all about me and it is all about me and I did this gig last night
00:03:45
Speaker
here at Creation Fest and the first thing I said was because there were 300 people in there and it wasn't rowdy but it felt a bit fractious when I came on stage because it was late. So before I did any jokes I told them I'm really good at this, I've done this for a long time and it's going to be really good. I told them, I promised them that because I needed to dominate, I needed to grab their attention, I needed to show them that I was in control, that I knew what I was doing because before
00:04:10
Speaker
Before people want to know that the comedian's funny, they really want to know that they can trust the comedian. And want to know that funny comes slight, very quickly after that, but it is sequential, it's second in the sequence. And so comedy's self-elevating, but preaching is self-denying. So, being a good preacher is a bit like being a good referee in a sense, in that you want the audience
00:04:36
Speaker
to not see that you're there. You want them to hear and receive what it is that God is saying through the preach, which is why the phrase celebrity preacher is a bit of a dangerous phrase, I think, because actually it has to be about the person we're preaching about. So when I'm doing comedy, it has to be about me. It is about me. It's okay for it to be about me. When I'm preaching, it's not okay for it to be about me. But then you also have to bring in the fact that, well,
00:05:02
Speaker
The reason you're on stage is because you know how to preach, of all the people in that room, that you're the person they've chosen to preach. And preaching, it should captivate, it should challenge. I think it is okay to use performance, it is okay to use comedy. When I'm preaching, it's still me and I'm using my skill set, but I just have a different end game, I have a different agenda. I want people to leave thinking, I've never heard the gospel described like that, rather than, yeah, he was funny. So there's a massively different end result.
00:05:29
Speaker
So how do you actually reconcile that tension within your own character from going from the self denying to the self elevating?
Balancing Comedy and Preaching
00:05:37
Speaker
That's a lovely question. I don't think I've mastered it yet. I think I can get it wrong on occasions. I think I can be a bit too posturing when I'm preaching, not all the time, but occasionally.
00:05:53
Speaker
I don't think this time I'm doing comedy where I can be too pastoral or de-aggrandizing. I think I'm always likely to be quite cocksure. The best quote that was ever given by a paper about me was that Yorkshire Times said,
00:06:10
Speaker
anti-kind is simultaneously self-deprecating and cocksure, simultaneously. I think that's, those are the two sides of the character. But I think, character wise, I think I just have to, it's difficult if I've got a Friday night gig and a Sunday morning preach, because you've still got the adrenaline from the night before. And then in the morning,
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, you do have to, it has to work its way, like caffeine, comedy has to work its way out of your system. But I think spending time in prayer and just, you know, repenting in the sense of changing your mind. You know, it's a Sunday morning, okay, different mindset. What is this about? Just blocking off the time, you know, psychologically.
00:07:01
Speaker
I think that's how I'm trying to do it. But again, I'm still quite early in my preaching journey. I've only been preaching for three years and it is probably in five years time I look back and think, oh gosh, there was a lot that a lot of creases hadn't been ironed out when I would back at Creation Fest being interviewed by Christy Mayer and that other guy.
00:07:19
Speaker
But you know, the great thing is when this goes out on the internet, we can see from the emails we'll get Andy, just how arrogant he sounds.
Christianity and Creative Arts
00:07:29
Speaker
I've intrigued something, a comment you threw in a few minutes ago, Andy, where you said you don't like discovering yourself as a Christian comedian, because I think there's some sort of connotations and things that come with that. I mean, that opens up a question I'd love to get your thoughts on for a few minutes, which is,
00:07:43
Speaker
For one of the better words, it sounds a bit sort of policy, but the whole sort of thing of Christianity arts writer going that I think the church sort of has this sort of strange tension, love, hate relationship with comedians or people who are actors, writers, musicians.
00:07:58
Speaker
You know, wanting in one sense the attraction that could bring, but not then knowing how to support them and use that. How have you sort of found that journey? Have you found other sort of Christians responding to the stuff you do? Or have you found it a platform, you know, for getting perhaps the gospel into places where perhaps other people wouldn't get? Because comedy opens doors, right? Yeah, I mean, Matt, I think there's several questions.
00:08:20
Speaker
I'd like to ask three or four questions. What I'd want to say there is to delineate between some of the questions. It's a very long word. First of all, Christianity in the Arts, yes, they don't seem to go together in 2019.
00:08:35
Speaker
Britain, do they? But the Sistine Chapel is Christianity in the arts. Handel's Messiah is Christianity in the arts. Handel's Messiah has led more people to the Lord than most evangelists. So, you know, historically, we're on fairly good ground. I think the problem is these days, the church sees the arts as an evangelistic luxury, by which I mean, something that doesn't, you see, art isn't worried about asking questions.
00:09:04
Speaker
and the evangelical world, which I'm in and happy to be in, when I say evangelical I simply mean the people passionate about hearing, giving the gospel, sharing the gospel, having people become Christians, getting saved in inverted commas. Artists are worried about asking questions and within the evangelical world we don't like questions as much as we like
00:09:26
Speaker
answers. You know, three of us are all engaged in persuasive evangelism. We think there are answers and good answers and persuasive answers. But also, you've got to ask questions for those answers to be provided. And art is a really good way of asking a question and leaving a question.
00:09:42
Speaker
And so I think there's that. I think we see the arts as an evangelistic luxury rather than an amazing pipeline back to our creator. We are made in the image of a creator. And one of the ways, one of the signposts to that is the fact that we are creative.
00:10:00
Speaker
We are creative because we're created by the creator. So when we're engaging in creativity, we actually are tapping into the source of all creation. And I think you feel most alive when you're operating in your biggest creative gifting. I know that I am when I'm on stage, whether it's preaching or doing comedy, I feel the most alive because that is what I was made for by the creator. I was created to be created by the creator. So
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's that. I think there's the evangelistic luxury. I think a lot of the time we say that we want creative pioneers within the church, but we don't really. We want people to guard the picket lines of acceptability, and I struggle with that, and I rail against that, but also I do understand it. And yet, the thing is, when you do see people being creative and being in the arts,
00:10:53
Speaker
It does really have an impact because people are engaging with themes. People like to engage with themes, don't they? In this post-truth society, people are still interested in the themes of humanity haven't changed. Like, why do I suffer? Why am I here? Why is there something rather than nothing? Where am I going? Destiny and purpose and origin, there's always the same themes, aren't they?
00:11:14
Speaker
So, and the arts is really good at tapping into that. And, you know, we say, don't we? Oh, it'd be great to have some, you know, more authentic Christian characters on East Enders and Coronation Street. Great. But authentic Christian characters, you have to have authentic Christian screenwriters. And where are they supposed to come from? If we're not discipling them within the church, where are they supposed to come from? So that would be my question. You can see, you can sense my hackles going up slightly as I even talk about that.
00:11:39
Speaker
So that's, that was an answer in part. I answer in part. I think what's interesting, that point about how the church produces artists and creatives is fascinating because Christie and I were talking about this creation process yesterday afternoon over one of our long brings, someone's over coffee, won't be here. But one of the organisations I'm involved with has done a great work in the last few years.
00:11:58
Speaker
producing, you know, sort of scholars and PhDs who are working around the area of Islam. I came through that program, but I've often looked at that and gone, what would it look like if the church equally found ways to, how do we start pipelining creatives? How do we pick up people who've got creative talent and help them, nurture them and support them? Because it's not easy when you start out. No, it's not. It's right. So my new show, Hidden in Plain Sight, that's an attempt for me to merge both the comedy and also
00:12:24
Speaker
The themes that we've talked about so in the show I tell five stories and I say these are all linked to different themes that we recognize from our own lives and Then at the end of the show I say look we've talked about unconditional love we've talked about you're wired for freedom and purpose We've talked about how death feels unnatural. We've talked about the power of forgiveness we've talked about Unconjected morality some things that are really wrong and
00:12:50
Speaker
What makes the most sense of those things? Of the big stories out there, the big narratives, the worldviews that are on offer, trying to have a claim on your identity. Which of those big stories makes sense of your little story? Because everyone in this room knows what those five things I've talked about mean. Like when I say purpose and hope and joy, you don't just understand the words, you understand the feelings and sensations attached to the words, but why?
00:13:14
Speaker
What is the best explanation? Not how is there a way that we can explain it other than Christianity, but what's the best explanation of those things? And that's a very, you know, it's a very kind of Christian apologetic way to look at things. But then to try and couch it in a two hour comedy show is exciting for me. And, you know, I've seen people become Christians through the show. I've also seen people be annoyed by the show.
00:13:42
Speaker
but I'm not trying to please everybody. That's wonderful. I can't wait to see that in action this evening. It sounds like there's a really strong apologetics, kind of apologetical thread that runs through your show, but also you're quite involved, aren't you, in evangelism in the local community? And what does that look like? What have you been up to recently?
Evangelism and Overcoming Fear
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah. And again, apologetics and evangelism, the words that lots of people don't understand, aren't they?
00:14:10
Speaker
for me, evangelism is the sharing of the gospel and the gospel is the power of God to transform people's lives for good. So evangelism for me is simply going out and telling people that there is a power, an ultimate power that can transform your life for good. So that's what I'm doing when I'm doing evangelism. But yeah, I work for a church in Chesterfield called Redeemer Keen Church and so we do a lot of street work
00:14:38
Speaker
By which I mean we go out on the streets and we will often pray for people. We'll try and get words of knowledge for people. So I'm a bit weird in the sense that I really like apologetics and I really like, you know, the philosophy side of things.
00:14:55
Speaker
But I also really like the charismatic side. I love praying for healing. We've seen some people dramatically healed, some rather than lots. But if you pray for 100 people and three get healed, well, that's three sermons, isn't it? Probably the same sermon for three years as well. But yeah, so we go out and we just try and give people some good news. And when people say, oh, I don't know how to do it, say, look, just tell them anything true
00:15:23
Speaker
about Jesus that supersedes and builds on what someone currently believes about themselves, their lives, or the world that they live in. That's sharing the gospel. That's good news. You don't have to give them a three-point gospel presentation. You're just trying to replace a lie with some of the truth. You can't give them all truth, but you can give them more truth. Can't you give them more truth?
00:15:48
Speaker
Someone should write a book without having to write it. No, I don't think so, no. But I think we just leave it. It's that. People believe lots of lies, because you can believe lots of things simultaneously, and there's lots of truth on offer. So let's do a little trade. I like that. One of the things I love about hanging out on your Facebook feed from time to time, apart from the inane jokes, which I'm naturally drawn to.
00:16:14
Speaker
You know, there's some great stories there that you share of the way that God's used you. But, yeah, for someone who's perhaps listening to this, who's sitting there thinking at home, going, it's all right for you, Andy, you're clearly emoting me. There's a fear, you're a comedian, you're a preacher, so you're someone who's confident with your words. They're sitting there thinking, that's just not me. These dramatic stories don't happen to me. Things don't happen when I've tried to share my faith. I've tried a couple of times. Hasn't worked out.
00:16:39
Speaker
Is it always been the case that you've been a kind of natural evangelist that things just happen or has it actually been a real process of learning together? A huge process and within the next couple of minutes I'll try and condense all of that. So just when I became a Christian in 2003, I was sitting with my mum and I wanted to hear a word from God. And my mum said, right, I think you're going to hear a word from God tonight. And I listened and I listened and I listened and I heard nothing. My mum had prophesied I would hear a word from God and I heard nothing.
00:17:09
Speaker
A decade later, I was in South Africa, and I prayed before this gig I was doing, about 300 people in there, and I'd written down some things I'd been praying. And I said at the end, if anyone's lost a child, I'd love to pray with you. And this lady came up, and she said,
00:17:25
Speaker
My name's Josephine and I've lost a child. I've got a son and I've lost him to drugs. We don't know where he is. And I said, can I just show you what I've written down in my pad when I was praying beforehand? And I'd written down, a black lady named Josephine has lost a child and God will give her back a son. That 10 years between hearing nothing and feeling so frustrated to giving
00:17:47
Speaker
to having a word of knowledge so dramatic, so explicit, so like precise. And in between that, there's been a time when I was on a train and this guy sat down next to me, a guy in the early twenties, I said, okay, God, what have you got for him? And I heard God say, and this is one of the things, when people say I heard God say, what do we mean? We don't mean there's a voice in the clouds. What I mean when I say I heard God say is simply a thought dropped into my head that corresponded with the feeling in my heart that I should say something.
00:18:15
Speaker
It's the same voice that says you've got to pick up your daughter from nursery four hours late say it's the same It's my voice but God's spirit, you know draw a line around the human spirit. You can't do it. So it's God's spirit merging with our spirit We don't know how those things work, but we just trusted it does. So this guy sits down And God said I heard God say I felt God's same
00:18:34
Speaker
His name's Martin, just telling him I love him. And I started laughing because he's not called Martin. He's in his early 20s. No one's called Martin. So I didn't say anything. And he got out his bank card later on, and he was called Martin. And that's the story of how awesome God is. But I said nothing. I didn't say anything. And by that point, I'd ruined it. You can't say, oh, excuse me, is your name Martin? How did you know that, Darren Brown? So I would say, first of all, that I am still naturally a coward.
00:19:01
Speaker
Like, I am always terrified before I share the gospel with anybody. Always terrified. And I've got words of knowledge wrong. Most people I pray for don't get healed. And yet, when Jesus sends out the 72 in Luke chapter 10, and they come up with great joy, and they say, Lord, even the demons,
00:19:19
Speaker
Obey us in your name and Jesus Jesus is something really interesting said like almost that's not the point He says don't rejoice that the spirits obey you rejoice that your names are written in heaven and that's the key to evangelism It's your identity
00:19:35
Speaker
you are secure in Christ. That is where your identity is. Before anybody else says anything about you, he spoke first, he'll have the last say, and he's the only one who speaks with true authority. And again, in Ezekiel 2, I'm sending you to the house of Israel, and whether they listen or refuse to listen, they'll know they've had a prophet amongst them. God doesn't say, I'm sending you, and they're definitely gonna listen, because everyone loves me. Whether they listen or refuse to listen, they'll know they've had a prophet amongst them. And so that's the key. That's the key.
00:20:04
Speaker
It's not about how people respond. It's not a performance game. Evangelism is not a skill. It's not a talent. People are more gifted than others, but it's not a skill. If you give God the availability, he'll give you the ability. And he's not bothered about your ability. He just wants your availability. You get rid of the fear. And everyone's terrified. Final thing I'll say. Everyone's terrified. Everyone's terrified of sharing the gospel. Everyone's terrified of sharing the gospel. So what?
00:20:34
Speaker
You've got to go through the pain. You've got to go through the fear. And the main thing I say, the first thing I say, the key to evangelism is this. You are not a coward, so don't act like it. Wonderful words.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:20:49
Speaker
Andy, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a great, great having you. And sorry, we apologize for the background noise. It's all happening. So yeah, and all the best for tonight. Thank you so much.