Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 209: The Minneapolis Comic Con Panel
198 Plays1 year ago
Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast! Today we have something a little different for y'all! It's a Gaming and Mental Health Panel using a similar structure as the Minneapolis Magic Con Panel. This one is Hobbes and some other Psychologist Friends! Dr. Allison Battles has a private practice (found here) that focuses on use of gaming in therapy and Dr. Patrick Cruitt has experience with incorporating TTRPGs into his work. The panel focuses on the recovery model and how gaming can be incorporated into Mental Health Care.
We also finally have a Linktree with all of our discounts/resources
____________________________________________
As promised, we keep Mental Health Links available every episode. But For general Mental Health the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) has great resources for people struggling with mental health concerns as well as their families. We also want to draw attention to this article on stigma from NAMI's site.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below.
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 988
- Veteran's can Press 1 at anytime to be taken to the Veteran's Line
- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
____________________________________________
Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle)
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast, and a part of their growing Vorthos content – as well as Magic content of all kinds. Check them out at hipstersofthecoast.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Gratitude
00:00:00
Speaker
Last talk of the kind, y'all are honestly like the true heroes for showing up. We thought we would just have an empty room, so don't lie to y'all right here.
Games for Mental Well-being
00:00:08
Speaker
So we are here to chat with you about how you can use your favorite games for empowered recovery. So how can we use games for our own mental well-being and overall kind of human growth?
00:00:21
Speaker
So I am Dr. Allison Battles. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and owner of Battle Robin Counseling, which is a local private practice that uses geek culture and games in individual and group therapy. Oh, I also use she-her pronouns.
Speaker Introductions
00:00:40
Speaker
Hi, I'm Patrick Crut. I am a licensed psychologist as well. And I have been mentored by these great folks in the practice, in the implementation of gaming in therapy. And I'm happy to be here as well. I use he, him pronouns.
00:00:57
Speaker
And I'm Thomas Quinlan. He, him, I co-host a Magic the Gathering podcast called the Goblin War podcast, which really looks at marriage of Magic the Gathering lore and the history of the game itself and communities and gathering spaces through the lens of then mental health. So a lot of our episodes are.
00:01:14
Speaker
topics like imposter syndrome through the eyes of one of the planeswalkers or talking about anger through Angrath and fatherhood through the same character which is kind of funny but anyway it's really made it kind of merging that life of Magic the Gathering lore with these social justice and mental health topics and then I also am a clinical psychologist so welcome thank you all for coming yeah
00:01:38
Speaker
So games and mental health is something that is very important and close to each of our hearts.
Games and Mental Health
00:01:45
Speaker
Also because we're human beings and we have used games in numerous ways to be able to overcome life struggles. So I think especially for today we're kind of hoping this to be a bit more of a conversation. We have slides because I'm
00:01:57
Speaker
I really like organization and I need structure and that kind of helps my brain to focus. So we have slides, but there's not really slides that we're using per se, but more wanting to make this a conversation. So if y'all have questions, shout out. If we accidentally use clinical language that y'all are unaware or don't know kind of what the word means, please raise a hand. We want to define that. Sometimes we just very much kind of slip into that jargon without thinking about it.
00:02:22
Speaker
We also want to give kind of a content warning. We're obviously going to be talking about mental health, which is the very high potential that stuff could come up with respect to trauma, to substance use disorders, to come with just mental health in general, suicidal ideation. These are some of the things that could come up while we're talking. We always kind of want to give that. And then, as we said, the comments on language, so being aware of our language and the words that we are using, if we're being imprecise or we're using things in a way that maybe you're confused about.
Impact of Geek Culture
00:02:48
Speaker
We are very open to anybody stepping up to the mic, raising their hand,
00:02:51
Speaker
We're totally fine with being interrupted at any time. Yeah. Sometimes the jargon has a life of its own outside of our work. And so if something doesn't sit quite right with you in terms of our language, please, again, feel free to ask, you know, hey, what do you actually mean by that? Is it what I'm thinking of based on the conversations I'm having with folks online, et cetera?
00:03:14
Speaker
So because this is something really close to us, I think we just wanted to share a little bit about kind of our own journeys to how we kind of have used geekery in our own mental health and also geekery within our own therapy practices. So, what do y'all want to volunteer as tribute?
00:03:30
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. So part of this has been this has been something that I've incorporated into my work for a long time. I started out working a lot with veterans and I especially being working in San Diego.
00:03:46
Speaker
learned very quickly how often service members at that point were coming into game stores. And it really kind of broke that stereotype of that they're going to be playing Call of Duty, they're playing only specific first-person shooters, when they're throwing down money on D&D, they're throwing down money on Magic the Gathering. Lo and behold though, I also then had to convince staff at VA hospitals that this was happening.
00:04:08
Speaker
And so for me, it's always been trying to see, well, I'm a big proponent of breaking down stigma, and the biggest part to me is talking about
Narrative Therapy in Gaming
00:04:16
Speaker
mental health. So my love of Magic the Gathering has been something I've been involved with those communities as a member, not just as a psychologist, but as a member for, you know, I've been on Twitter in the Magic Sphere for 13 years. These are conversations that I have been wanting to have for a very long time. And we're getting to a point where people are a lot more willing to have them.
00:04:37
Speaker
Within my own therapy approach, I do a lot of narrative-based stuff that can include talking about, like I said, that planeswalker journey or having somebody think of themselves as a character and looking at character sheets. How would they design themselves on a piece of paper? So I will oftentimes just do subtle things like around my office, I have my TARDIS lanyard that looks like Van Gogh. So people don't know, they just think I love Van Gogh.
00:05:01
Speaker
No, it's as hard as exploding people. It's way worse than Van Gogh. I have Star Wars stuff. I have magic stuff around. And the idea is just to make it an environment where people may feel comfortable bringing that stuff up. Because gaming, nerd topics, fandoms in general, make for such rich analogies when people are doing therapy.
00:05:21
Speaker
Any time that you can actually use analogies, I find that therapy works a lot better. So if somebody can bring in what's important to them from the fandom, I want to be able to respect it. I want to be able to bring it in and open that conversation. I guess I'm next in the order here. Has to go linear. It has to be linear. We're just passing back and forth. As I said, I need structure.
00:05:45
Speaker
So again, like I mentioned, I'm relatively new to this game. I've been being mentored by these fine folks here in
00:05:59
Speaker
roping in games and nerddom into my work more closely. But it's something that I've been thinking about and reflecting on for a long time.
Games as Empowerment Tools
00:06:08
Speaker
I grew up with tabletop role-playing games and in graduate school really came into a group that
00:06:17
Speaker
that really got me through it. And it really informed the way I thought about my practice, right? It was something that I was thinking about as I was working with patients. What role am I presenting? How am I presenting that? And then, like you said, how do we think about ourselves as characters in our own stories? One of the things that I really sought to kind of
00:06:44
Speaker
incorporate into my work was the idea that we have life stories, that we are narrating and we are creating as we develop and age.
00:06:58
Speaker
And then, yeah, I mean, general nerd-noms that I am in, I guess, that I will bring up throughout this, yeah, bring up about this presentation. I'm a big Star Wars fan. I play tabletop war games, primarily Star Wars themed, but I'm starting to branch out into others. And board games are a huge part of my relaxation and sort of how I find joy and gain energy. So, yeah.
00:07:29
Speaker
So for me, I have always been a fan of just fantasy. So growing up came from a military family, so games and silliness weren't per se something that was really like condoned. It was very much be normal. And I didn't really fit in with be normal.
00:07:45
Speaker
So I found myself, like, drawn to these shows, these characters, especially characters of powerful women. Like, oh my god, Xena Warrior Princess. That was life-changing for me. I was like, oh, I can be the hero of my own story. I can do this.
00:08:00
Speaker
And so I found myself really immersed in a lot of different stories. Definitely went down the Harry Potter train of just really aligning with that. You know, I'm one of those folks where I think I'm a Gryffindor. No, I have evolved into a Hufflepuff. I just want to be kind, stay weird, and eat things. That's it. And so I found in these stories, I was able to get
00:08:21
Speaker
a sense of empowerment, a sense of agency, a sense of self within them.
Therapeutic Use of D&D
00:08:26
Speaker
And so later on in life, I got introduced to playing games, RPGs are my favorite, Skyrim was a life changing experience for me. And being in those games was one of those where I just felt
00:08:41
Speaker
And I also kind of started to learn more about myself, those times in the game where I felt really icky because I don't like to be mean and I don't like to be the one that hurts people. And so that was an interesting kind of area of reflection. And I got like a whole other level of that when I finally got into D&D, which is for me probably my favorite fandom of them all.
00:09:03
Speaker
I love getting into character more than anything else of exploring like who is this person? What part of myself is coming up? And that I think is the big thing of why I think games can be so powerful. They tell us something really profound about ourselves. Those things that light you up tell you that I really value this. This is something meaningful to me.
00:09:25
Speaker
And so for me, I really, D&D saved my life in graduate school because it is probably hands down one of the worst experiences of my life to just feel that small and that crappy about everything you're doing. And so that game really was great to feel like I didn't always suck and I could do more than what I was being told at that moment. And so that is really where for me, it kind of evolves into wanting to bring this in more
00:09:52
Speaker
explicitly into therapy. So I got the wild idea on my internship of let's make a D&D group therapy. And thankfully my training director was like, you know what, go forth and prosper and see what happens. And so I got matched up with Thomas who supervised me during that group. And it was really great of kind of getting to see how D&D, the whole game environment can be used for therapy.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I think for me, one of the big places that I use it in my practice is how we come to understand different parts of ourselves. We are a collection of different patterns, reactions, thoughts, feelings, all crammed into one human being. You have an immensely rich world inside, but sometimes we get really, really fused, really stuck with a certain way of seeing ourselves that we lose sight of all those different parts, all of the characters within us that makes up
00:10:44
Speaker
our own story of us. And so that's really been a big place of where I try to bring that in, not only to individual therapy, but also in D&D group therapy and getting to bring that in.
00:10:57
Speaker
Yeah, say that the individual therapy part to me and we're gonna be diving deeper into this world But there's a huge piece of just I mean I know for me There are parts of my personality that I probably don't want to deal with or acknowledge and sometimes if I'm able to do it in a game I'm able to separate I'm able to have that level of emotional separation It's almost like telling a friend to do something except I'm actually doing it for myself and I think that
00:11:20
Speaker
when we're talking about where therapy can go, especially in that group, is you're playing a character. If you choose to make that character embody parts of you, that's sometimes a place to explore problem solving. It's a place to explore trying something out that you want to do in the real world, but aren't as willing to yet.
Gaming for Community Building
00:11:40
Speaker
I definitely have stories of people who played with things like gender within video games or within role playing long before they ever got to a point where maybe I actually want to
00:11:50
Speaker
explore this in the quote-unquote real world or outside of a game piece because a game piece was a place to see, well, what would it be like to embody this in an environment where I do have people still interacting with me?
00:12:04
Speaker
So another big thing that we're kind of also tapping into is like, why does this matter? I find that the whole kind of concept about like why mental health matters is becoming one that more and more folks are in agreement with of, yes, mental health matters. I think the pandemic in particular put a lot of things into perspective of how profoundly it can impact us to be that isolated, that without community.
00:12:27
Speaker
and also that without resource. And so we are finding that nowadays most of us will experience some degree of mental health struggle kind of within our lifetime, whether that is just a period of acute stress, acute depression, or things that we experience more chronically that compound over the course of time.
00:12:47
Speaker
So this is really where we're seeing kind of one in five adults is experiencing what we would classify as a mental health disorder. Now, disorder is something that with clinicians, we can end up going on a very easy tangent.
00:13:00
Speaker
soapbox about like, what does that mean versus how do you experience it in your life? But ultimately many of us are going to encounter struggles at points in time. And games can be a really profound way that we are able to bring in something fun, something enjoyable, something light that can help us to also have really profound change.
00:13:22
Speaker
And so a lot of times as I'm thinking about games, different types of games, how do we use those? Each different type of game that we encounter or kind of fandom or narrative or geekery can be used for various different things within our lives. A lot of times, you know, we're really thinking about kind of what is the
00:13:41
Speaker
kind of type of game, how does that break down? But at its core, what we're looking at is the power of play. Who here could use a bit more play in their life? It feels like a trash fire outside, oftentimes. It is just times where I don't understand, my value system feels so misaligned with things that are happening, and it can lead to feeling just so profoundly powerless.
00:14:07
Speaker
So I think that's why the more we connect with where we actually have agency and choice in what we do to bring in play, that can have such a profound impact on feeling like we have something of meaning, something to work towards, even whenever it feels like everything is burning down around us. And so that's why I think in a big way
00:14:28
Speaker
We're kind of thinking about how we are never more fully alive than when we play.
Therapy and Playfulness
00:14:34
Speaker
Like, I know for me, one of my very first D&D characters is such a cliche, my idealized self, the noble warrior who's, you know, came from a tormented family who was out to right justices and, you know, you know, you know, fix the wrongs of the system. And I adore her with every fiber of my being.
00:14:52
Speaker
She died sacrificing herself to an ancient black dragon, got resurrected later in another campaign. She is my favorite character to play because I feel powerful whenever I get to play her. And also I am deeply immersed in what does it mean to be her in that moment. And this is where
00:15:09
Speaker
I think games can be really impactful for us of how we can get so immersed within it. A lot of times we may find ourselves feeling really stuck in the tour, like the roller coaster of our own minds, where our thoughts want to spiral us down to, that we can lose so much time in doing that. But in an insane kind of similar vein of how we can kind of focus our attention in and what that focus of attention can do for us, games can also be a similar outlet.
00:15:38
Speaker
So this is where I think kind of as we think about games, different types of games, each of them can have their own different experiences. I know each of us have our own like perspective, like fandoms of like, you know, where we each align and how we think those different games can really be impactful on things. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a reason my show is called Goblin Lore. I am straight up a goblin. The chaos of being able to, you know, you know, we talk about this because this is something, you know, with aligning with Magic the Gathering lore,
00:16:06
Speaker
and looking at the lore of how goblins have been done. There's a lot that has been very done very poorly with goblins. Magic has really resurrected in some ways elements of those that are really great is there's chaos, there is murder, the goblins are sometimes I guess bad people but they're not like in magic they don't have to be and part of when they're not is they're communal.
00:16:25
Speaker
Goblins literally live for the Warrens. They live for the people that are around them that are part of their family. And so to me, like this communal nature, I mean, I fully identify with it. I'm a little chaotic. I have some trouble with the concentration focus. And at the same time, I am very willing to go to bat for the people that are within my Warrens. And that is, you know, it is something that is so ingrained in me at this point that it was just like finding that within a game was like, wait, oh, that's kind of cool. I can identify with something that is very fantastical.
00:16:56
Speaker
and gives me an outlet for that energy that I needed, that I can't necessarily do on my day-to-day at work. Well, they do frown upon a certain level of goblin behavior. Yeah, just a certain degree of it. I did. I literally just got him a pin that says emotional support goblin.
00:17:15
Speaker
One of the things that I was thinking about when both of you were talking was that idea that mental health matters because your goals and your values matter. What you want out of your life matters. And how to do that in community with others
00:17:38
Speaker
and how to do so flexibly and creatively within the constraints of the dumpster fire world sometimes that we live in is really important and play helps us find those possibilities, helps us play with those possibilities in a safe, hopefully, place.
00:17:55
Speaker
And that's what we're trying to do by incorporating that into a therapy context. Well, I think about just where we are today, right? We're at a convention to find people that enjoy some of the same things that we do. I did a similar panel to this at a specific Magic the Gathering convention here in Minneapolis. And community itself is an element of gaming that oftentimes, I mean,
00:18:21
Speaker
can get overlooked, especially if people don't have a history of it or don't understand what that piece is. I mean, it's a joke. Magic the Gathering is called Magic the Gathering. It's literally in the name. You mentioned the flexibility. I know so many people that that community was so important to them that when the world shut down, they were some of the first people I know to buy out webcams and figure out how to hook up Discord to be able to show a playmat to play with because all of a sudden their in-person community was gone.
00:18:51
Speaker
It was just taken away from them overnight. And ways to be able to incorporate this much more flexibly and incorporate gaming into more elements of our life is something that I think has just been so underutilized. Yeah. Therapy is not about imposing some sense of this is the way to be or some objective idea that this is what health looks like, right? Therapy is about increasing our freedom and our flexibility.
00:19:18
Speaker
At least that that is my opinion. That's my perspective.
Games and Positive Mental Health
00:19:23
Speaker
But you know that's that I think that's really important part of why play makes such a good good match for what we're trying to do.
00:19:33
Speaker
Because it is. There is this deep intention at the core of therapy of helping you to unlock those answers within yourself. And is that a difficult journey that takes a lot of work? Hell, yes, it is. But it is a journey that is worth going on because at the core, you matter. And you get to choose kind of that element of life direction for yourself.
00:19:55
Speaker
And so this is where as I think about like different types of games, there's definitely kind of the backlash from others in the community, larger, not the geek community, but kind of beyond that. Well, you know, you know, games make people angry, you know, games make people violent. And ultimately, the research is incredibly not in support of that. There are some that due to other extenuating circumstances and other factors like
00:20:17
Speaker
household violence, socioeconomic status, access to resources, all these other things that impact that. But what we really look at is how games can be helpful for us. Like just being able to play it, you know, what is one? I know for myself like right now I am just utterly lost in Baldur's Gate. Anybody else or is that just me?
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, there we go. I find for that game that the decision-making element is something that is really challenging because I will get so bogged down of just like the social implication of what is happening in each of these of like what is the like next thing that will happen that I will stall myself out so much and playing. So it's like an exercise and how can I just
00:20:58
Speaker
Make a choice. Take an action. Give it a try. Because I may feel uncomfortable. I may not feel like I fully know what I'm doing. But if it matters to me, I'm still going to take that action. And so that is, I think, a big way where games can be helpful in that and being able to learn to just be willing to take action.
00:21:14
Speaker
It's a concept of commitment, right? You're committing to the action. It doesn't tell you what's going to happen. I was almost going to cut you off right there and say, you use the word try, do or do not. There is no try. The literal point of that is it is committing to action. But it does tell us nothing about success. It tells us nothing about outcome. It just means that you are making that decision to act or not act. And games, I find, even given people
00:21:41
Speaker
an amount of options or choices, you're still at some point having to commit to action or the game's not going to progress. It's not going to move forward. And that ties into one of the few ways that we've identified where gaming may not be helpful, which is when we are not
00:21:58
Speaker
doing it in a way that is committed. Intentional. When we're just mindlessly just looking for that sense of reward, that dopamine hit of just one more game, I got to be a little bit better. One more quest and I'll take that line 30 minutes later. Exactly. Meant to go to bed. That can set us up for frustration. The lack of sleep is one area where it can be problematic.
00:22:26
Speaker
It can set us up for that frustration. And that's where some of that anger can come in of feeling unsatisfied by our engagement. So it's really important to be clear what we are looking for out of our games and the goals that we have for them so that we can engage with them.
00:22:42
Speaker
this way that promotes that sense of committed action and that you know learning and that creativity of you know what happens next what what what can happen if I didn't do that quite right this time but you know what can I learn from that
00:23:00
Speaker
And I think one of those big things of like, how do we know if we're gaming in a healthy way? I think one of the big places that I really look at is intentionality versus avoidance. Am I going into playing this game because it's something that I want to do that makes me feel good, that helps me to kind of like get through things in my life, then that is all right. But if I'm doing this to escape, if I'm doing this to
00:23:23
Speaker
not do the things that I don't want to do in my life, then that's where games can really start to disrupt me. Or not feel the things I don't want to feel. Or not feel the things I don't want to shut all of that down and just dive into a game. And so that is where I like the intentionality. Yeah, I'm not looking out at the audience at all right now. I know, I guess I'm just like, that's a little, you know. But that intentionality, I think, is one of the greatest places. Because as we kind of talk about what is recovery, one of the big things we're really tapping into is how do we become self-aware
00:23:53
Speaker
and self-regulating. So what I mean by that is how do I know my stuff and what goes on and what comes up and what I react to and how I respond to all of that, and how do I learn to soothe myself whenever I do hit that panic, whenever I do have that response that's just out of alignment with how I would most like to be right now, but that thing is automatic and activated and I have to work, I'm bringing it back in.
Recovery and Personal Growth
00:24:17
Speaker
So this kind of brings up this concept. We've added this slide up here. This is called our recovery wheel. So this is a model that's not like a specific thing, like a type of therapy or a school of thought, but it's just a model that came out of the work on especially substance use and schizophrenia spectrum disorders.
00:24:35
Speaker
Which is kind of your psychosis those pieces that are kind of considered at times serious mental health And it's that idea that a lot of people with those were basically told you can't recover, right? Like the old model for mental health was you stay in an asylum or you stay in Living basically in seclusion. You're not gonna work. You're not gonna do anything because that is what's gonna happen like your life is over and I've worked with a
00:24:58
Speaker
Definitely older people that were told this I mean flat out given a diagnosis and told you have no hope you need to take these pills That'll give you at least a chance of like that stigmatizing. You're not gonna hurt anybody. You'll be quiet You'll leave people alone instead of that idea of actually living and so mental health recovery is really that concept of
00:25:17
Speaker
It's not just the absence of symptoms It's not I'm gonna be less depressed and if somebody comes in and they tell me their goal is to be less depressed My very next question is great. If you were less depressed, what would you be doing? Right? This is really based on that concept of doing and that concept of actually a life worth living and that fits well into that narrative kind of purpose and meaning piece and This is just that idea that it's it's got a ton of different domains that are important to be keeping in mind It's not just the absence of symptoms. It's not just
00:25:47
Speaker
even something like getting treatment because for some people that's not even part of it. They don't need treatment. They don't want it. They don't need it for the recovery. But it is that concept that there is a process that you go through. Yeah. Therapy is not actually for everyone. It's very, very helpful. It's really important. It's a tool in our toolbox, but you know, it's one tool, right? There are a lot of ways to engage.
00:26:10
Speaker
You know, and with these things these difficulties these issues that we encounter in the course of living our life and I was just, you know, I was listening to you talk about the way we communicated this sense of hopelessness and was lack of recovery when we know that things like work and
00:26:28
Speaker
valued activity are really you know beneficial to people. People enjoy doing things and it's not that the like the negative emotions
00:26:45
Speaker
or these unpleasant emotions that we experience are bad in and of themselves. They are useful tools. Play can be a really interesting way of exploring those things. If you play a game that makes you sad or scared or anxious, interrogating that a little bit. It can give you an idea about what those emotions communicate about what you value.
00:27:13
Speaker
And I will say, too, that if you're thinking about any good person, and that's all of us, I would say, it kind of goes against my Hobbesian nature, but there is a fact that we all have strengths, and oftentimes what things focus on is our weaknesses. And a lot of times that's what people focus on when you get into therapy. They focus on things that are not going well or weakness. They don't focus on what strengths you actually have.
00:27:37
Speaker
I love character creation in games because you have to balance those facts out. You cannot, I mean, you can, right? Like you can always try to join one of those games where you just make the Ubermensch, the worst interpretation of Superman that you max out everything. The kid on the playground is like, oh, you missed.
00:27:54
Speaker
Oh, my invisible shield. Right, like everything was going to be that way, right? And the fact of the matter is that's just, to me, I enjoy characters when I'm reading that have to deal with the fact that they have their strengths and they have things they're good at, but they also have the things that they're going to have to work against or they're going to have to balance those out. And I think that that's where something like a D&D character creation is just, I think, fantastic to think about that within yourself.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's actually something that I find in my D&D group, so we do really specifically. We work on intentional character creation, where literally your character's strength is going to be something that you personally want more of in your life, and your character's struggle will be something you want less of in your life. So we're directly anchoring characters.
00:28:38
Speaker
to things we want to see different. And this is because we're using games to experiment. We can try on different ways of being, different ways of interacting, which can, with practice and effort, can translate into our personal lives. But just like in the game, we gotta be willing to just try and take action.
00:28:57
Speaker
And I think even echoing back to something that was mentioned earlier is this whole idea of like, what is recovery? And I think a big thing that I oftentimes tell folks is it's likely not going to be one where you never experience sadness, you never experience anxiety, you never experience
00:29:15
Speaker
those are likely going to be a part of life because those emotions show up whenever they get activated. And it would be really bad if they weren't. Yes, I think they are telling you something powerful about yourself. If you don't feel fear in the presence of a bear or an owlbear, that's a problem, right? Fight flight is needed at a time, though,
00:29:35
Speaker
Very much could flip, you know, the flippings get switched on for a while, but it's that way of how do we start to know ourselves more? How do we take these different parts of us, these different elements of our character, along for the journey of growth and recovery? And a lot of that is really where one of the big ideas in recovery is the many pathways. Therapy may be one avenue, medications may be another avenue,
00:30:01
Speaker
but also what you do with your own self, those people you connect to, the ways in which you do self reflection, whether that is journaling, just talking and learning to sit and be with yourself, or like we're talking here using games intentionally to help with that inner reflection and that kind of sitting with
00:30:21
Speaker
discomfort and learning to kind of regulate our stuff because who here has ever wanted to rage throw a controller or rage quit a game like oh you say want to or I'll raise my hand for both I just want to know what I'm committing
00:30:41
Speaker
But yeah, that is a profound moment because our ability to sit with that level of frustration and distress and to then come back down that is a skill and a muscle that we can learn to develop and that is something that we can take with us into our
Integrating Games into Therapy
00:30:56
Speaker
lives.
00:30:56
Speaker
I oftentimes, I am not an elder soul, you know, I'm a Dark Souls person. I do not have the frustration tolerance capabilities that I tout up here. So I recognize for myself that game is just not for me. But for my clients that it is, oh, we use that in therapy. I'm like, all right, I want you to kind of use this. We're going to do some, you know, kind of deep breathing afterward. You're going to journal what are the feelings that came up. All right, that's cool. Let's go into that dungeon and let's see what comes out of this.
00:31:22
Speaker
And that can be a really fun way with people to bring in games into the therapy room. I actually just heard from folks, so there was a lovely presentation yesterday put on by Care Counseling, and one of them shared about having a Switch in their office. It just sounds magical to be able to have actual gaming systems in my office one day. I know somebody that works with kids that has pre-built magic decks that they will sometimes use within the therapy session. Same thing with Switch, Pokemon, some of these things, especially with kids in particular.
00:31:52
Speaker
Because it's acceptable, that's the sad part, right? Kids, it's acceptable to do play during the middle of therapy. I have to convince people that I'm actually doing my job. But the fact of the matter is, we know that, right? Play should not just go away. I'm gonna caution myself for using should language. Play is something that it would be very helpful to be able to have. As adults, that often gets lost. I think of the fact that I am a Star Wars geek. That's one of the things. My Star Wars geekdom came from my mom, who's in her 60s now.
00:32:20
Speaker
For years, she never talked about it. Now that woman will put Star Wars on anything because it's much more acceptable. But the fact of the matter is that's always been part of her identity. It's always been something that she's done. However, if it's not acceptable for adults to talk about it and bring it in, then, you know, what are we doing here? Makes me think especially of like D&D, satanic panic, all of that. And now we're in the center of vogue, like where on earth have things come from to be in this space in this day and this time?
00:32:51
Speaker
The Last Magic Con, I dressed up as a goblin king and danced to Elijah Wood spinning a set on... He was the DJ for the night for the dance party at this magic event in Vegas.
00:33:03
Speaker
Right? Like, I cannot imagine going back 30 years in my life and trying to tell a teenage me that I would be doing this. Right? Lord of the Rings just coming out. Actually, gosh, for that I could even go back to childhood actor a lot of you wouldn't know. But I've been telling myself that I one day would be dressed up in a goblin ski mask with a like red robe and green suit on and dancing around. Like, proud of you. Yeah, thanks. Younger you would be proud of you. Younger you would be really proud. So cool. Very confused.
00:33:31
Speaker
But that's a big way in recovery. It is driven by you. The therapy room itself is one where you get to be the center of that, to find safety and trust and a voice and agency within that. And games are just the same. Those stories that you connect with are deeply unique to yourself.
00:33:50
Speaker
to your upbringings, to your heritages, your cultures, all of these different things that intersect to bring us to who we are and how we live in this world. And so that's a big reason why noticing what games you get drawn to can be really powerful. Like, what does that say about what I really like? What does that also say maybe even about what I struggle with by the games that I avoid, like for me first person shooters, that type of quick decision making?
00:34:15
Speaker
Oh, that just sets all of my anxiety way up there. So I know for myself that type of quick response is not something I really enjoy well, which is also where I recognize it as an area of development. I think that brings up a really interesting point too, which is that when those games involve other people are in contact with other people, it
00:34:37
Speaker
requires us to be very explicit about what these things are doing to us and what it is we're looking for. It's helpful to do this in relation to video games, because you get to choose what video game experiences I'm going to seek out or not. But when we talk about tabletop role-playing games or even competitive games, collaborative board games, these things do require some sort of negotiation
00:35:07
Speaker
And that is part of what therapy is too. It's a negotiation between the therapist and the client about what is this going to look like? How does our communication work? How does it impact us? What patterns is it bringing up for you?
00:35:27
Speaker
that you learned earlier in your life or through your experiences or through messages you received from society that certain things were acceptable or not, right? What patterns does it bring me up for you and can we make those explicit so that you have the freedom to choose? Do I want to continue exhibiting this pattern when it comes up for me? Or do I want to try out other ways of being? Do something different, different ways of being, not try.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, my Star Wars card is going to be revoked. I mean, I literally have that in my office. I literally have a do or do not. There's no try side. It's my office for this reason. The Jedi philosophy is so fantastic. It's a great example. Sometimes.
00:36:11
Speaker
But I mean, when we're talking about recovery, this idea, when I'm introducing this, it really is this idea that is a journey. We really talk about nonlinearity. It's not like you're coming in, you're going from point A to point B in a linear fashion.
00:36:24
Speaker
We're much more open world than that. But it works for me as a description when I'm talking about the types of stuff that I like to do, because it is a journey. So you can talk about that within a person's own story. We are each on our pathway. We are each on there. We're going to have things like side quests. We're going to have things that are going to pull us away, potentially, from where we're going to go. And we have to make decisions when we come to those choice points. I find gamers really identify with this idea of a choice point, where you have to be confronted by making a decision between two things.
00:36:55
Speaker
This is something that I oftentimes use within therapy because it's talking about moving towards values or away from values. And with games, a lot of times that's where the story is trying to drive us. We have to make a decision. We have an option. Well, we don't have to, right? I can theoretically play Breath of the Wild and just go cook for hours on end. I'm not saying I've done it, but my wife really likes that sound that it makes when it's cooking.
00:37:18
Speaker
But that's following games in a very different way. When I'm playing in that way, I am choosing to not follow a pathway. I'm choosing not to be seeking out a specific objective. That's fine for some things. But the fact of the matter is, when I get down to it and I am confronted with a situation, I have to make a decision on what I'm going to do.
00:37:41
Speaker
Imagine if you played a game any game I mean video game or you know a tabletop game or board game where you were just trying to either avoid losing Or just like yeah, basically avoid losing avoid, you know avoid the enemies avoid You know avoid any challenge avoid anything that was going to you know And that would be that would that would not be a very satisfying game. It would not be a very satisfying experience
00:38:04
Speaker
I'm pretty certain you would just stay right at the starting line. I'm just going to stay right here. I'm just going to stay in the tutorial zone where they can't kill me. You have to choose to engage in some risk taking to approach what it is you value. Even if you are going to go run off and go cooking, you're going to have to go gather the ingredients and face some risk and kind of approach that. So I think it's a very useful metaphor in that way.
00:38:33
Speaker
And I think that's definitely where we can use that framework of games, especially side quests. If there is an action that I want to take, for example, I find myself struggling with social anxiety. And so the thought of going to a party with people that I don't fully know, or even people sometimes that I do know.
00:38:49
Speaker
can be incredibly aggravating, so much so that I will avoid it, and then might tell myself, oh yeah, I feel better now, so that's a good reason to avoid. Well, that is just, I may feel better in the short term than in the long term, I am not living in alignment with who I want to be.
Gaming Metaphors for Personal Growth
00:39:04
Speaker
And so that's where we can take that idea of side quests and use it for ourselves. I'm like, okay, my character is heading out on a side quest. This will bring forth so much XP for me and I just have to go there and maybe just put up with 30 minutes and then I get to go home. And that is still a successful side quest, huzzah.
00:39:23
Speaker
It's not the, you know, it's not the full mission. It's not exactly what you want out of it, but it's getting that experience, right? Exactly, because we're really wanting to chip away at those large milestones, because folks are oftentimes like, yes, I want to be happy. What does that even mean to be happy? That is something that we oftentimes have to really break down for ourselves. Well, that's, ooh, do we have some ones? Yeah, someone wave their arms around.
00:39:53
Speaker
There we go. Yay. Oh, God. It's so bright now. Oh, OK. I liked a little of the mystique. No. The Renaissance, that is like one of my heavens. That's why I also love cons, because it's like I just love wearing costumes. Like the fact I didn't get to costume today because my brain was like, you need to be a professional. You know, maybe so.
00:40:22
Speaker
Talk about avoidance. I know, I know. Not acting with your values. I know, I know. That's why I'm not earrings on. You got your earrings. I got my sparkle of narrative on this. I didn't. I got my button. But we're really kind of taking this of like, all right, so this whole idea, I mean, the fact that y'all showed up, y'all are likely bought into this whole thought and this whole concept that, yeah, games can be really good for our mental health. Now let's talk about what we can actually really do with that.
00:40:50
Speaker
Because there's a lot of different ways, a lot of different games that we can work to bring into our lives. I put up an image of the hero's journey because I find that that is such a testament to so many things that we go through in our lives.
00:41:06
Speaker
so many narratives that we interact with, whether they are kind of the nerdy, geeky stories we interact with now, or the stories of old, the stories of our heritages, the stories of our traditions. We are deeply storytelling creatures. This is how we have passed down lineages and heritages and cultures, and that is why the hero's journey can be something really profound to even think about in your own life.
00:41:30
Speaker
Now, whenever I use the word kind of hero, that does not necessarily mean that you have to be the good guy. You can be a villain if you want to. That is totally your choice in making sure it's in line with your valued decisions. But if going that villain route is for you, live your villain life.
00:41:45
Speaker
But it is still going to be this journey of self-development. We have to either learn to adapt to our surroundings or creatively maladapt, right? And generatively maladapt to our setting, right? Martin Luther King Jr. gave a speech to the American Psychological Association where he used that term, creative maladjustment.
00:42:10
Speaker
Two realities that we don't want to adjust to Very very much so so that's where in terms of kind of as I think about the hero's journey that very first Call to action kind of like what Thomas was saying that choice point How do I start to get more aware of how do I actually want to act want to be in this world? I?
00:42:32
Speaker
What do I want to stand for? What do I want to stand against? That is where we start to really understand a bit more of what is the journey that we're setting out on and taking that first leap of faith into, well, I'm going to try because at the worst, I'm going to be probably exactly where I am right now.
00:42:53
Speaker
So that is kind of where we're able to start experimenting. And I think especially as we see with games where, as I mentioned, playing Baldur's Gate, the
00:43:04
Speaker
Plots upon plots upon plots that happen with this game is just mind bending at times. Bravo to the team in the storyboard. But it also is a really good example of what we have to do within our own lives. For a quest, you will have the large broad category of must do X, but then you're also going to have all of those actionable steps that you take to actually make that happen.
00:43:28
Speaker
That is something that we can really use in our own lives. We'll set these grand goals for ourselves. I want to be a psychologist. So what does that actually mean? Well, that means I need to apply for graduate school. That means I needed to take the GRE. That means I had to do all of these things to get to where I am. So that is where we can take these milestones and we can ship them down into
00:43:50
Speaker
the pebbles themselves, these tangible actions that form the literal path that we will walk to get to that end destination. And so that's where we can take that whole quest concept, breaking it down into those tangible actions as a direct behavior skill for us to start to act more in alignment with who we want to be.
00:44:11
Speaker
I mean, this is even used in learning now that companies use gamifying for things like language building. There's writing sites where if you write so many words a day or you write a prompt, you actually get XP. You use that to get skins within a game. People have been gamifying, like I said, instead of calling
00:44:28
Speaker
Homework for therapy that you know what your therapist may ask you do in the week between sessions Calling it a side quest calling it a mission calling it something else. We're trying to experiment We're experimenting with our brains to we're gamifying it. We're really are and for people who are more steeped in that culture I Find that it's so much better than trying to just follow some traditional route of you come in I'm gonna give you a homework assignment I want you to do it this week come in next week with it if it's something that's much more personal or it's gonna align with your
00:44:57
Speaker
Lifestyle and if that is something where you treat it as if it's a game or you treat it as if it is a quest That is something that I find to be incredibly powerful and a lot more likely that somebody's gonna actually take those steps Yeah, I think that that's what we as therapists are thinking of most of what we're talking about here is intentionality Yeah, we're talking about awareness We're talking about engaging with things that you already enjoy doing in a more intentional way. So if you play
00:45:20
Speaker
Baldur's Gate or you play a game like I'm trying to think like when I used to play the Spider-Man game for Sony, I'm just really upset because I haven't played the second one yet. But I mean, I would be intentional about what I was doing with it. Like why am I going to a location? What am I wanting to get out of my time playing? And I also have that's a big thing for me in my life is intentionality and bringing that from there into my own life.
00:45:48
Speaker
I think there's another idea also that I really like from games, and this is that whole idea of finite resources. So each and every one of us only has a certain amount of energy that we can use in any given days. Has anybody ever heard of the language of spoon theory? Yep, yep. And so we kind of take that same concept in spoon theory, which really highlights that you are only given a certain amount of energy, a certain amount of spoons,
00:46:13
Speaker
any given day and different activities will take those spoons away in different degrees. Some days you may not even wake up with a full set. I like to gamify that a bit more and to think about my spell slots. You know I only wake up and have a certain number of spell slots as a person in this world and certain things are going to drain away those spell slots more than others and so it's being really aware of where am I at in that spectrum for myself and
00:46:40
Speaker
And it also can be a really helpful way, especially if you have friends, community, a partner that also is really into games. Now y'all can have shared language to be able to check in with one another of like, Hey, where are your spell slots at right now? I just need a short rest and I'll be fine. Don't worry. Okay. I forgot you're a warlock. It'll be cool. I was thinking that idea of short rest, long rest, like to know what, what are my activities? Can I actually get back that slot by what do I need for it? So some things I'm not going to get back unless I get three nights of good sleep in a row. Well, that's not happening.
00:47:13
Speaker
But it is kind of understanding those resources. If that isn't happening, there are things we can do. There are changes we can make to your schedule. Well, I mean, depending on the external circumstances. That's true. Depending on the external circumstances. But I just wanted to do a plug for insomnia treatment because it's a thing. It works. It's helpful.
00:47:38
Speaker
But yeah, no, I like the spell slot example better than the spoons for one reason, which is the wizard can still do stuff after they spend their spell slots. They can't do the big stuff. They can't do the things that they're really good at, but they can still be effective in smaller ways, right? And I think that that's a really good example because it's not like you stop living when you run out of spoons or spell slots or you just, you know,
00:48:06
Speaker
fall into a coma, right?
Life Lessons from Gaming
00:48:08
Speaker
It is, you are functioning but at a lower level, right? And what is something that you can easily overcome when you are full up, when you feel like you have that energy, it's gonna be harder for you when you don't.
00:48:24
Speaker
And you can still face it, right? And figure out creative ways around that with that knowledge of what is my capacity and what can I expect to achieve in this moment, given my energy level, my skill level, like what is going on with me right now. Well, I already even like to talk about things we're really good at. This is a piece of gaming that I really like is most of the games that I play or that I most engage with have an element of randomness in it. And I like to talk about randomness in terms of therapy because
00:48:54
Speaker
It can help us. We have this a lot where we have situations where somebody is proficient in a skill, rolls and has a very crappy role, or somebody loses to the top card off of their opponent's deck in Magic the Gathering. That's also life, right? Like, we don't. Just because I am very good at some thing in my life, it doesn't mean I'm going to be successful at it. It doesn't tell me that I'm going to always do well with it. And I think the games having that built-in randomizer is actually a great thing for teaching, as you said,
00:49:22
Speaker
Frustration tolerance for understanding reasons why maybe I rolled a five on something Yeah, and I mean and going back to the social anxiety example because that's something I've also experienced You know one of the things that's tricky is you know
00:49:46
Speaker
Sometimes people will judge you. Sometimes these things do happen that we're afraid of happening when we experience anxiety. And recognizing that the likelihood, the probabilities behind that happening
00:50:04
Speaker
requires us to put ourselves in that situation and see what happens most frequently. So if we're avoiding those situations, we don't know what the dice rolls are because we haven't been rolling any dice. And so it's sort of like our modifiers are hidden to us or something.
00:50:21
Speaker
They are we don't spend time thinking about what our strengths are our modifiers are right out hidden from a lot of us right and so Recognizing that sometimes we're gonna go into situations and our feared outcomes are gonna happen by chance But that other times they're not and that we do have strengths we can rely on and even if we do roll badly once, right? There are other you know, the game doesn't stop, right? There are ways to respond to that that help us continue to achieve our goals, right?
00:50:51
Speaker
Because there's something interesting in celebrating the action, because I find, especially in D&D, whenever it's a failed role, that does not mean that it does not move the plot along. That means something else interesting can happen that may be entirely outside of what you expected. But lo and behold, now we have narrative gold that's moving a party along to another direction. I mean, how many stories from folks' experiences with these games come from? Oh, so much.
00:51:19
Speaker
come from that bad role, right? They come from a really spectacular, critical fail at the perfect moment. Our rogue who tries to shoplift out of a store and cuts his hand because he rolled a one. And then now the shopkeeping, everybody is very aware that he was trying to shoplift for no reason either, other than he was a chaotic rogue. I mean, that's great for story. And that is great for figuring out what do you do in that situation. You have to now explain what you were just doing. It is a great opportunity.
00:51:48
Speaker
Which is, you know, a little easier to say in a game than in real life, right? But that's why we play games, is to give ourselves that experience to know, hey, you know, maybe I could handle it if something like that were to happen. And that's why I find it's kind of that duality of one, the game, how are you engaging in it, what's going on in it, but then two, that additional self-work.
00:52:10
Speaker
What are you doing outside of the game space to also deepen your own self-awareness, self-soothing, and valued action within your life? Whether that is therapy or just your own personal self-reflection, self-growth, this can come up in so many different ways of sitting with yourself, journaling, painting, dancing, having a close friend to speak to, talking to your dog.
00:52:32
Speaker
been there. All of these can be different ways that we are translating what we do in game into our personal lives and that is one of the big things because we can do all of these grand things in game and that is all experiences that we have lived. Nobody can ever take that away from us. I have, I can't come up with the name of the actual final boss in Skyrim, that evil final dragon, the dragon lord.
00:53:02
Speaker
I know somebody else is like, I know, we're going to walk out of here, like three people are going to be like, oh, that was the name. But nothing can take away that you have had that experience of beating this final boss. Like that is something that is a part of you. Like I especially find from Tears of the Kingdom that final Ganon battle was intense. But it was the coolest thing at the end to just like, heck yeah, I did that. That's awesome.
00:53:27
Speaker
I almost was like, no spoilers! Wait, there's a Ganon battle at the end of Legend of Zelda game? How will I ever recover? So, but the ways that we're translating that, those experiences, those are a part of us, and we can now take those into experimenting with something new in our personal lives.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:53:48
Speaker
So recognizing of time. We can reintroduce ourselves. My name is Thomas Quinlan. I can be found on Twitter, I refuse to call it X, at HobSkew or the Goblin Lore podcast, which is the Magic the Gathering Pod that I've been doing for five years. You can also find me on Blue Sky. Basically, you can find me everywhere on the internet as HobSkew since 1998.
00:54:13
Speaker
I am old. I went into branding very early.
00:54:19
Speaker
So, but we definitely, we have time if folks have questions, you know, definitely happy to answer whether it's, you know, about mental health and gaming or whatever y'all got, you know, general thoughts on Baldur's Gate. I'm really into it right now. It's like my name. It's so good. I know I am that person. Have you heard the good news about Baldur? Yes.
00:54:46
Speaker
I've heard a lot about it.