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Juuust A Bit Outside: Major League vs. Bull Durham
210 Plays11 months ago
Rock & Rob had a lot of debate on one of their social media posts about which 80’s baseball classic was better so they thought the start of the 2024 MLB Playoffs would be a great time to put this conversation to rest and decide once and for all which movie wins the pennant: Major League (1989) or Bull Durham (1988). And, they knew if they were going back to the ballpark to battle baseball movies, they needed fan-favorite guest judge Austin Bentson to join them. Listen in as they put these movies through seven rounds of questions and discuss things such as the best fictional movie baseball players, sports announcers and TV editing of curse words. Just remember meat, don’t think, it can only hurt the ballclub.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Setup
00:00:00
Speaker
Ladies and gentlemen, can I please have your attention?
00:00:09
Speaker
Brothers don't shake hands. Brothers gotta hug. Your voice is like a combination of Fergie and Jesus. You sound like your friend London. I don't want your life. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. Okay, a simple wrong would have done
Host Introductions and Anecdotes
00:00:25
Speaker
just fine. Take me out to the ball game and welcome to the movie showdown with Rock N' Rob. My name is Rob Mansfield and with me, this guy threw at his own kid in a father-daughter softball game. It's Alex Rockline. Rob, let me just tell you real quick, my ERA in girls coach pitch softball right now is minuscule. I think you'd be very proud. I would expect nothing less.
Listener Engagement and Contest
00:00:45
Speaker
Well, before we get into the episode, we'd like to start things off with a five star review. This is from Justin Keys, 87, and he just says yes.
00:00:54
Speaker
This is as phenomenal as I fully expected it to be. I appreciate the confidence, Justin Keys. Thank you for the support. Listen, everyone, I hate asking this every episode, but please, please, please go on Spotify, Apple, whatever podcast site you use, give us a five star review. It's how we can continue to grow. And if everyone that downloads an episode would do it, that would mean the world. Look, I'll even do a contest. Go on, give us a five star review, leave us a comment, and leave your Instagram or TikTok handle in the comment, and Alex and I will pick our two favorites and we'll send you guys some swag. All right, enough begging, let's get back
Baseball Movie Showdown Announcement
00:01:28
Speaker
to the episode. The and MLB playoffs are just starting, so Rock and I thought it would be appropriate. to do another baseball movie showdown. And since our last one was one of our most popular episodes, check out Hot Ice, Rookie of the Year versus Little Big League, if you haven't yet. We knew just who to bring in to guest judge this one.
Guest Introduction and Personal News
00:01:44
Speaker
So welcome back to the show, Austin Benson. What's up, boys? Glad to be back. What's new with your life since the last time we spoke? My wife and I welcomed our second child into the world, baby girl, Hallie. She is beautiful, so just chasing around two little kids. That's ah that's the most of it.
Favorite Baseball Movies Discussion
00:02:01
Speaker
I thought I could see that young child keeping you up at night look on your face. The bags under the eyes. In the most handsome way ever.
00:02:09
Speaker
I appreciate it. I know this is an audio medium, but y'all would like what I'm looking at. Slattered. I do have a guest question of the week for you. What's your favorite baseball movie? For me, that's pretty easy. That would be The Sandlot. Nostalgic, funny, hits all the points for me. Sandlot it is. and Mine is also The Sandlot, but Feel the Dreams is a very, very tight second. Sandlot I love. I do really like Moneyball too.
Social Media Feedback on Sports Comedies
00:02:34
Speaker
Moneyball is also excellent. So we posted a clip to social media about our top five sports comedies. And we had a little baseball movie on that list at number two called Major League. And in the comments, we got a lot of pushback from people saying Bull Durham was a better baseball comedy. Now, while we both love Bull Durham, Major League stands out more as a traditional sports comedy to us, which is why it landed on the list. But those comments did get us thinking which movie would win in a showdown.
'Major League' vs. 'Bull Durham' Showdown
00:03:01
Speaker
And so this week we'll be battling Major League and Bull Durham. Before we get into it, though, we are aware that the Cleveland Indians are now known as the Cleveland Guardians. At the time that Major League was made, though, they were the Indians. So for the sake of continuity with that movie, we will refer to them as the Indians through this episode. We mean no disrespect. Apologize if this offends anybody. That's not our intent, but it just makes it easier when discussing quotes and lines and scenes from that movie. The name change is fitting, though, because the opening shot of Major League is of the Guardians, the statues that are standing on the Hope Memorial Bridge that the team is now named after. Even though they weren't the Guardians in the movie, the Guardians were in the movie. Good catch. All right, Alex, talk to us about what movie you are
'Major League': Plot and Cultural Impact
00:03:47
Speaker
representing. This week, I will be representing Major League. Summary, a new owner wants to move the team to a better location, so intentionally tries to get the worst players so they come in last place and attendance drops so low that they are allowed to do this.
00:03:59
Speaker
And no, we are not talking about the current situation with the Oakland Athletics. This is a fictional movie that was released on April 7th, 1989. And while we can't prove it, we're pretty sure that the owner of the A's saw this and was like, wait, we can do that? But in real life, the A's are moving regardless when the team in the movie overcame the odds to win the whole effing thing. Just to throw this out there, the movie was released on April 7th. A little movie called Feel the Dreams was released two weeks later. Isn't that crazy? That's a good stretch. Major League was written and directed by David S. Ward. He also wrote The Sting, which won an Academy Award, and Sleepless in Seattle, which was nominated for one. He also wrote and directed the program. That's a really fun college football movie.
00:04:39
Speaker
Ward is actually a lifelong Cleveland Indians, now Guardians fan. His inspiration for creating the movie was simply because he thought it would be the only way he would ever see the team actually win something. Major League had a budget of $11 million, dollars not a very big budget. Box Office brought in $75 million, dollars has an 83% on Rotten Tomatoes, and a Google Audience score of 87%. Okay, which means this week I will be representing Bull
'Bull Durham': Plot and Influence
00:05:04
Speaker
Durham. So we've got a veteran catcher is brought on board a minor league team to help mold and develop a young idiotic erratic pitcher. There's also a love story mixed in there. Actually, the love story takes center stage and the baseball is kind of just a conduit to deliver it. Baseball movie, love story, romantic comedy. I don't know, I guess we'll figure it out as we go through it.
00:05:22
Speaker
Released on June 15th, 1988, written and directed by Ron Shelton. So Shelton was a former minor league baseball infielder. He actually earned an Academy Award nomination for this script. He also wrote and directed a little movie called White Man Can't Jump and Tin Cup. And he wrote the basketball movie Blue Chips. Impressive resume. Bull Durham had a budget of $9 million dollars and a box office of $50.9 million. dollars Hear this out. Rotten tomato score of 97%.
00:05:52
Speaker
Wow. Easily the highest movie that we have covered on this show. That is so high. But hear this out, a Google audience score of only 70%. See, I think that's too low. Not to try to sway you this early, Austin, but let me run down a list of rankings and awards that Bull Durham has achieved. So in 2003, Sports Illustrated ranked it as the greatest sports movie of all time. It's number one on Rotten Tomatoes Best Sports Movies list. It's included among the 1001 movies you must see before you die. It's number 55 on Bravo's 100 Funniest Movies, number 97 on the American Film Institute's 100 Years, 100 Laughs list, and it's ranked number five on the American Film Institute's list of the 10 greatest films in the sports genre. Impressive resume. Okay, the top 1001 movies to see before you die. What movie isn't on that list?
00:06:43
Speaker
um So Bull Durham is credited for ushering in the golden age of sports movies. So when Shelton pitched the film, he had a hard time convincing a studio to take it as baseball movies were not considered viable. The film's success helped spark a boom of baseball and other sports movies in the years to come, which included Major League, Field of Dreams, A League of Their Own, plus many of the other movies that we've talked about from the early 90s on this show. We'll get to connections between these two movies in a little bit. One thing they do have in common is they have some iconic nicknames for the players. So I would like to do best friend challenge, fictional baseball movie
Favorite Fictional Baseball Nicknames
00:07:25
Speaker
nicknames. We will each give our top four favorite nicknames and whoever matches up the most in the same spot will be considered best friends. I'll lead us off. My number four, Crash Davis. I would like to know how he got the nickname Crash, but I do think it's pretty cool. Alex? My number four is All the Way Mae. That is Mae Mortabito. That's Madonna's character in A League of Their Own. Sexist. You mean because I'm including a movie about women playing baseball? No. We encourage female sexuality on this show, Alex. Look, I am opening the eyes of our listeners. Go see A League of Their Own. I thought All the Way meant Home Run.
00:08:05
Speaker
That's exactly what it means. It's a baseball term. I'm pretty sure she had that nickname before they started playing baseball. All right, Austin, what's your number four? I also had Crash Davis as number four. Let's go. And I like to think of since he's a catcher, Crash Davis coming from the clashes that happen at home plate. Yeah, that's good. All right. All right. All right. Number three for me, Ham Porter from The Sandlot. My number three is Rick Wilding Bond. Betty Spaghetti Horn, also from League of the Rock. Betty Spaghetti is kind of funny. What do you got to say about that, Rob? Spaghetti. Maybe she just likes spaghetti. All right.
00:08:41
Speaker
Jeez. My number two, Rick the Wild Thing Vaughn from Major League. My number two is Ebby Nuke Lalouche. My number two is also Wild Thing. Yes, let's go. Alex, who do I do this show with? Jeez.
00:08:58
Speaker
I get it. Number one, Benny the jet Rodriguez from the Sandlot. You just can't beat Benny the jet. I mean, imagine being a kid and people referring to you as the jet. Just unbelievable. It is a good one, but I am going to stick with the Sandlot, but I'm going to go with Hamilton Ham Porter just because it encapsulates the character so well.
00:09:18
Speaker
Man, I too had ham at number one. I mean, and you can turn it into the great ham, you know, that is yeah pretty phenomenal. He's just the best character. Well, okay. Since Austin and I matched up two in the same spot, I guess that means Austin and I are best friends this week. Good for us. Congrats. Although we did match up in the one spot. So that's something that is good. That's a little bonus points there. It just means a lot of love between the three of us. That's true. You ready to jump into these
'Major League' Cast and Character Analysis
00:09:44
Speaker
categories? Round one, best cast.
00:09:48
Speaker
leading off for us is Tom Berenger. He plays the veteran catcher, Jake Taylor. The intro for Jake is great. We see him in some sort of motel in Mexico, the phone over the sombrero. He hangs up on the GM thinking it's a joke. I love that line. He's like, ah. If you're going to mess with me, at least say you're the Yankees. Great line. Former Major League catcher Steve Yeager, who also plays Duke Temple in this film, served as a coach for the actors, also serving as a stunt double for Tom Berenger in many scenes when Jake Taylor would make a throw from home plate or be in a home plate collision. That's good because there's one scene where Tom Berenger doesn't have the mask on and he is trying to show off his arm strength, throwing the ball to second base. And my God, it was an awful throw. Watching actors in athletic movies is often a very funny thing. It's either really funny or like you're like, wow, that guy is good. Like it's it. There's no in between. Yep. Yep. Actually one of them right now. How about Charlie Sheen? He plays Ricky Wild Thing Vaughn. Charlie Sheen was actually a high school pitcher who was offered a baseball scholarship to the University of Kansas. Apparently he threw in the upper 80s, which back in those days, that was pretty hard. He did admit that he took steroids to prepare for this role, which got his fastball back up to around 85. Good for him. And I love how, I think it is, uh, Willie Mays Hayes who asked him what league you coming from. And he says the California penal. How'd you get there? Stole a car. He still got the cutoff. I don't know if you noticed he's wearing the cutoff, uh, like jumpsuit under his vest, which is great. Sheen's really funny in this movie. A lot of the little things he does, the faces he makes, the little expressions, it's really, really good. And he's great in that restaurant scene. Him, Willie Mays Hayes, which those two together are hilarious. And Jake Taylor, they're trying to like read the menu. They don't know what language it is. Then when Jake points out, Lynn is with another guy, Vaughn's just like, do you want me to follow him out? And when nobody responds, he just like kind of like shakes his head like, no, okay, got it. Yeah, he's very subtle. I don't know if you noticed that when they're in the restaurant too, he's got the menu and then he like flips it because he was holding it upside down. That was great. There's just like a lot of those little things that he does really well. And it is funny to see because he's obviously very funny, but he plays it so straight. Yes. Real life pitcher of Mitch Williams, he was actually inspired to model himself after Rick Fon. He began to wear the number 99 and he had Wild Thing played when he entered games shortly thereafter earning the nickname Wild Thing. Do you think Rick Vaughn set the tone for the modern day closer? Because you see it all the time now. The closers are they're very eccentric. Instead of walkout music, they have their intro music. It's just such a personality. personality now You almost have to be that kind of guy. No, I think this definitely inspired it. And obviously, baseball is moving in a trend more to using relief pitchers and closers. So it kind of timed up perfectly. But I mean, this was one of the biggest baseball movies ever made. So there's no way it didn't impact. If you're an athlete, you see something you think it's cool. Oh, it's cool that he's entering to a song. Yeah, you're going to do that.
00:12:33
Speaker
If NASCAR drivers are watching Ricky Bobby run across the line and doing that when they crash, then baseball players are watching wild thing and music and doing that. Excellent callback. All right, we also have Wesley Snipes. He plays Willie Mays Hayes. You may know him from Blade. White men can't jump. He also played a baseball player in the fan. We missed that when we did actors who played multiple same sport roles. He would have made my top five if I remembered that. Yeah.
00:12:58
Speaker
Well, too bad. So apparently Snipes was not a good baseball player, which is why you never see him throwing a ball. You really only see him on the base paths catching a ball basket catch and being told to never do that again. What he lacks in baseball ability, he makes up in likability. He's fantastic. When he introduces himself, he says he plays like Maize, but he runs like Hayes. So when he says he runs like Hayes, he's referring to Bullet Bob Hayes. Hayes won gold medal in the 100 meter dash in the 1964 Tokyo Olympics and was considered the world's fastest human. He then went on to a Hall of Fame NFL career and is still thought to be the fastest man to ever play pro football. never knew that i just figured hayes was a fast person dennis hayesbert plays pedro serrano this guy look familiar to you guys
00:13:42
Speaker
the all-state guy is the all-state guy the very deep voice was he in twenty four yep the president man what a great voice he has
00:13:59
Speaker
Never knew that, a fast person. I love when we meet him
Authenticity in 'Major League'
00:14:07
Speaker
in spring training and he walks over to Dorn and he takes the golf club warmer and he puts it on his bat He says he needs a hat for his bat. Is this a good business idea? I feel like we could make a lot of money selling bat hats on like the travel ball circuit I think it would work We just need to pay like one professional a good amount of money to endorse it and all the people would be wanting to buy it I mean, people are spending like four to $800 on aluminum bats. We just market something being like, hey, protect your investment, get a hat for your bat. Yeah. We could customize it. We could do team logos. It's a million dollar idea. You're giving away some trade seekers right now. Trademark rock and rob show with Austin Benson. Don't steal it.
00:14:44
Speaker
We have Margaret Whitten. She plays Rachel Phelps. So her character's plan to move the Indians was inspired by real life Minnesota Twins owner, Calvin Griffith. In and the 1970s, Griffith had negotiated an escape clause in the team's lease of the Metrodome, which he said that if the twins home attendance was under 1.4 million per season for three consecutive years, the team could be released from its contract and leave Minnesota. Like the Phelps character, Griffith let quality players depart via free agency and use cheap, inexperienced rookies and has-beens.
00:15:14
Speaker
The twins lost 102 games in their first year in the Metrodome in 1982 and then 92 games the next year with attendance under 900,000 for both seasons. The twins were on the verge of moving to Florida, but was avoided when Griffith then sold the twins. I don't think I knew that. James Gammon, he plays the manager, Lou Brown. I love Lou Brown, he's got that nice, deep, rich voice. Rene Russo, she plays Lynn Wells, love interest of Jake Taylor. Rob, we have a vanity license plate alert. Ooh, we love this. She works at a library, so naturally her license plate reads, read.
00:15:47
Speaker
r e a d nice bob buker plays play byplay man harry doyle so in real life bob buker was the milwaukee brewers radio broadcaster for twenty years won the two thousand and three ford frick award apparently david ward did not know this fact before hiring him which is pretty funny actually because easy's the actual seasoned play by play guy well he lucked into that Bob Yooker was actually a former Major League Baseball player who was known more for his personality than his play. He was a catcher and he spent six years in the majors, only appearing in 297 games. He was a career 200 hitter. He was not very good. He is best known for his self-deprecating humor and his wit. We typically associate Yogi Berra with the most memorable baseball quotes, but in real life, we're not talking Harry Doyle. We're talking Bob Yooker here. He has some gems. I'm just going to hit you with a few of them. I led the league and go get them next time. In 1962, I was named minor league player of the year. It was my second season in the Biggs. All right, I'm gonna give you one more. I had slumps that lasted into the winter. He did improvise some lines and you could tell that he's got experience with this. That's awesome. Chelsea Ross, he plays pitcher Eddie Harris. He was also in Rudy and Hoosiers. A lot of funny stuff with him when he's just doctoring the ball with all sorts of different types of Let's just say he wouldn't fit well in today's modern game. Yeah. You first see him in the locker room and his shirt's off and Vaughn's like, what is on you? And he's got all sorts of stuff. And he's like, well, this is, you know, Chris go. And yeah, it's like you put snot on the ball. Yeah. A little later, Harry Doyle he keeps on like, and Harris gets him out with the KY ball or the Vaseline ball.
00:17:20
Speaker
They all knew. to yeah That's a funny thing. They're all like, oh yeah, he's the guy that throws all the junk. We also have, we're going to call this a character, but we're going to say the Yankees. They're essential part, especially their big power hitter, Clue Heywood. So in this movie, the Yankees are the bad guys. They're described as the defending American league champions when in reality, the last time they had won the AL pennant at this time was in 1981. So they were actually in the midst of like their biggest drought in their franchise history, which is kind of funny to be like, yeah, they're the bad guys in this movie.
00:17:49
Speaker
It was kind of interesting. So in the final game, the Yankees had a shortstop who wore number two, which was very alarming for me to see as the self-proclaimed biggest Derek Jeter fan on the planet to see a Yankee shortstop wearing number two before Derek Jeter. It is weird, especially with the Yankees, you know, even Heywood, we're number six. That was before Joe Torrey's time, but still seeing those numbers in the Yankee uniform with someone else, you're like, that's not right. So we had three members of this cast who are actual MLB players. We mentioned Steve Yeager was a catcher. He was the 1981 World Series MVP for the Dodgers. Pete Vukovic played Clue Heywood. He was actually a pitcher though. He was the 1982 Cy Young winner for the Brewers. And then Willie Mueller, he was a pitcher for the Brewers and he played the Duke.
00:18:35
Speaker
the closer for the Yankees. Technically, four cast members were MLB players because Bob Euchre. Good catch. Well, that's all we got you, Austin. All right, Scrubs fans. Did you guys notice Neil Flynn in there? Janitor. He even got a couple of lines. He was one of like the recurring cuts to the Cleveland fans. The voice of Cleveland.
00:18:55
Speaker
He was also in Rookie of the Year. That's right. So Austin, Neil Flynn loves showing up in episodes where you guest judge. I love seeing him. Well, we've mentioned some of the real life players that appeared in this movie, but there's also a bunch that the characters are based on. So according to David Ward, Pedro Serrano is partially based on Orlando Cepeda and Wade Boggs, who would superstitiously eat chicken before every game.
00:19:17
Speaker
I also noticed there is a scene at his locker and you can see some baseball cards hanging up in his locker. And if my eyes do not deceive me, these are the baseball cards he has hung up. Eddie Murray, Roberto Clemente, Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Hank Aaron, and Jackie Robinson. He's got a solid stack of cards.
00:19:33
Speaker
Willie Mays Hayes is based on Ricky Henderson. Reinhold George Rine-Duran was the inspiration for Ricky Vaughn. Also before Vaughn's first pitch to Haywood, he slammed his hand and gloved together. This was inspired by former MLB closer Al Rabowski, who did that every time he entered a game. And I think Ryan Dern had like the big Coke bottle looking glasses. That's where they pulled that from. Love it. Eddie Harris appears to be inspired by Gaylord Perry, who is known for using outside substances to enhance his pitches. Jake Taylor may be inspired by Carlton Fisk. He kind of looks like him too, who was a catcher with a very long career with the Red Sox and the White Sox. Lou Brown mentions early on that Taylor was a former two time All-Star in Boston.
00:20:14
Speaker
They did a lot of movie magic to make the actors look better than they were. The pitching mound was actually moved in 10 feet to make Charlie Sheen look like he was throwing harder and was always showing Wesley Snipes running in slow motion. All
'Bull Durham' Cast and Character Dynamics
00:20:27
Speaker
right. Let me talk about the cast of Bull Durham.
00:20:29
Speaker
We have the sports movie goat Kevin Costner as Lawrence Crash Davis. Crash's introduction in this movie is phenomenal. He walks into the manager's office. They say, who are you? He says, I'm the player to be named later, which is a great baseball reference. It's a great line.
00:20:47
Speaker
He just looks like a superstar. When he walks in, just compare to, you know, everything else about this movie feels low budget until you see him. And maybe it's just because we know Kevin Costner at this point, but you see him and you're like, boom, bonafide movie star, like just has the look.
00:21:04
Speaker
And apparently Costner was able to actually hit the ball out a few times when the cameras were rolling. He was quite the athlete. That does not surprise me. I don't know if our listeners know this. Alex was actually a catcher in high school and college watching these movies, which semi both center around the catcher. How cool do you feel being a catcher when you see this? Oh, yeah, of course. Alex, you know who else was a catcher? Who? I was a catcher. I did not know that. Rob, I don't know if you remember we took some BP in college and I hit a few out. Oh, wow. I do remember taking BP. Yeah, you don't remember me. He remembers. But I don't doubt it. But I don't doubt it. Well, I remember you specifically being very impressed at the time. Didn't leave a lasting impression. I'm re impressed.
00:21:46
Speaker
So we said Ron Shelton, the director, played minor league baseball. But Kurt Russell, who we have talked about on this show before, also played minor league baseball and helped Shelton develop the script and was originally penciled in to play Crash. Nick Nolte turned down the role because he didn't like baseball and both Jeff Bridges and Don Johnson turned down the role as well. It ended up with the right person. Agreed.
00:22:06
Speaker
We have Susan Sarandon as Annie Savoy. So she was named Annie because apparently Annie is a term referring to baseball groupies. I didn't know that, but then I googled it and it's true. I feel like it must be an older thing because I have been around baseball for a while and I've never heard it. What do we think of Annie in this movie? I didn't know that baseball groupies, that was a question I had if that's really a thing, especially someone who is like in there. I don't know how old she's playing in the movie, 30s, 40s, falling around a minor league baseball team. yeah And making selections each season, it seems odd as a premise. So when Newt calls her cute, she like freaks out and she's like, I hate being called cute. I want to be exotic and mysterious. And I think That's what her whole goal is. She likes to be the person that knows everything. She wants to talk about all the weird quantum physics, universe type stuff, whatever. She imparts her knowledge in a new player every year and doesn't have to be too committed. And I think she's just finding fulfillment through this. That being said, I've never been drawn to her character. And it's funny because like that's who the movies told through like partially her perspective. I mean, you have the opening and the closing and there's a lot of voiceover with her, but I've never loved her character, despite the fact that I love this movie.
00:23:30
Speaker
And I think what they do a pretty good job of, there's like two love triangles in this movie too. You have Nuke, Crash, you have Annie, but there's also, this is almost a love story of those characters in baseball. Baseball is almost the other like romantic character in the movie. It's a hundred percent true.
00:23:47
Speaker
A lot of actors auditioned and or were offered the part of Annie before Sarandon landed it. So we've got Kim Basinger, Carrie Fisher, Debra Winger, Michelle Pfeiffer, Kelly McGillis, Glenn Close, Isabella Rossellini, and Mary Steenburgen. We have Tim Robbins as Eddie Calvin, Nuke Lalouche. Tim Robbins is great. His most famous role is Shawshank, right? Yeah, say so.
00:24:09
Speaker
So according to Shelton, he came up with the name Eddie Calvin Nuke Lelouch after being served by a waiter named Ebby Calvin Nuke and OOK LaRouche. He loved the name and just changed the spelling slightly. How do you get to know your server on that level? that is Phenomenal question. So in Nuke's first outing, he walks 18 batters. He strikes out 18 batters and he goes all nine innings. How many pitches do we think he threw overall that game? We'll say the walks and the strikeouts. He just throws four balls, three strikes for 18 each. So 72 for the walks was 54. So we're at at least 126. He didn't throw a no hitter. So people got hits. We don't know how many innings he pitched. Nine. He won complete game. I mean, that's 27 outs, so you're still missing nine outs. So if you add nine just for lowest possible pitches, man, we're already at 135. It was definitely over 200 pitches. It was easily over 200. I mean, it could have been pushing 300 because like there's no way that he went like one, two, three strikeout and then four balls. He was all over the place. Yeah.
00:25:12
Speaker
So Ron Shelton cast Tim Robbins over the strong objections of the studio. They wanted Anthony Michael Hall, but Shelton threatened to quit before they backed off. And that was a good choice. Charlie Sheen was also considered for this role, but he was committed to another baseball movie, Eight Men Out. So although Costner plays the older, more experienced player in real life, he's only three years older than Robbins. They were 33 and 30 respectively during the filming.
00:25:38
Speaker
While Susan Sarandon was actually 42, Sarandon and Robbins actually met during the filming and stayed in a relationship until 2009. They have two kids together. I didn't know that. And Costner, Sarandon and Robbins have all won Oscars in their careers following this movie. Not for this movie. Not for this movie.
00:25:55
Speaker
Okay, Alex, what do you got for Connections this week? This week, I'm going to connect both of these movies. We've touched on the cast, but let's hear just how similar these two movies are while at the same time being very
Connections Between the Movies
00:26:06
Speaker
different. Both teams have a veteran catcher that has to educate the young pitchers on the game. Both catchers are involved in a love triangle, but end up with a girl in the end. Both teams have a young flame throwing pitcher with no control who both hit 96 on the radar gun the first time they throw.
00:26:21
Speaker
Both teams have the religious guy. Both teams have a guy that practices voodoo and talk about sacrificing a chicken for help in the game. In both movies, the catcher goes with one sign with a runner on second, something that does not happen in almost any level of baseball starting in high school. In Major League, Clue Haywood was based on former Yankees catcher Thurman Munson, and in Bull Durham, Annie has a shrine of Thurman Munson at her house. Nice. A lot more connections between these two movies, which were only a year apart then I think you would think. All right, Austin, which movie wins for best cast?
00:26:52
Speaker
While three Academy Award winning actors in Bull Durham is impressive, when you just look at the lineup of characters and if I look at recognizable names that show up in the movies, I gotta go with Major League on this one. I can't completely argue with you while I do think that Crash Davis is an iconic character. There's just too many in Major League. No fight on me on that. Major League takes a one to nothing lead. Heading into round two, best moments.
Best Scenes and Moments from 'Major League'
00:27:22
Speaker
You mentioned before, but it it is worth mentioning again. The opening shot of Major League shows a Guardian, which is one of those statues on the bridge. That opening, it's so unique for a pretty traditional comedy, the tone of it. It's very down, but I I think it's setting up the feeling that Cleveland fans probably were feeling during that time and putting the audience in the seat. If it just came out with laughs, you know, you're feeling good. But it was like, no, you got to understand that as a Cleveland fan, this is how we feel all the time. Yeah, we're steadily holding at rock bottom. It's why they had those recurring flashes to the fans, like showing them from the beginning, being down and throughout the movie, how they're getting more and more excited about the team. You can definitely tell that a real Cleveland fan wrote and directed this film. That's a great point. It just shows like the blue collar nature. There's a hard workers. Just they show the nun feeding the birds with her Indians jacket. They care. They just want to be good. Yeah. Yeah. So the movie opens. We meet the new owner of the Indians. I love the part when she hands out the list.
00:28:25
Speaker
I never heard of half of these guys, and the ones I do know are way past the prime. Most of these guys never had a prime. I like to in that sequence when they're like, this guy's dead. Cross him off.
00:28:38
Speaker
Fantastic line. So as the players come into spring training, I love how they use this as a chance to give you the background on the players. We're going to be following in the movie because the way they develop these characters is excellent. One thing I like about that scene is everybody does a different hand gesture to like acknowledge the coach. Each one is fitting with their character. Yeah, they really paid attention to mannerisms and characters, like what they would do, what's realistic for them. I do have a question that did the guys really have to bunk together in spring training back then? I was wondering if that was partially the ownership already trying to make things bad. Just trying to skimp out and they're like, yeah, you live here now. That would be miserable for some of the guys. Hey, they were just happy to be there. But maybe not because Dorn doesn't complain about it. And he was the high price talent that had been really for a while. So maybe he's just like, oh, this is spring training as you just come and you live in a barracks. We start spring training. We get to see the players and what they're made of. It's our first look at Willie Mays Hayes and his speed. During the middle of the night, they've come to realize that he was actually not invited to spring training because he wasn't on the list. The security guys remove the top bunk, which he's sleeping on, put it outside. Spring training starts, guys are just kind of doing some wind sprints. And then you see Willie Mays Hayes wake up and he sees it. And then he just does not get changed, does not stretch, does not put any cleats on. You just kind of see him coming around the corner in slow motion and just burn the two guys who are already started running. So that's where we get our intro to the speed of Willie Mays Hayes.
00:30:01
Speaker
But he can't hit. He's in the batting cage, hitting everything off the top of the cage. That's when Lou Brown makes him does the push ups every time he hits the ball in the air. Lou Brown going with the anti launch angle coaching would not fit in modern. ah A modern MLB. We got Roger Dorn out there at third base. He does not want to get in front of that ball. Coach, none of that Olay BS. The amount of times I heard that quote from a coach or another player when someone did not get in front of the ball. Do you think that came from this movie? Everyone on my team would quote this movie, and they would always say that stuff. I mean, even in Little League, like, oh, don't obey it. It had to come from this movie, right? I bet it did. Pedro, we see him in the cage. He is just hitting the ball. What he likes to say is, Straight ball, I hit it very much. Close ball. That's our friend.
00:30:45
Speaker
I love that when they're like, wow, like what like why didn't this guy play? Then they're like, all right, throw him you know no more fastballs. Jobu is now introduced, so Jobu is who he keeps in his locker. The cigar, the rum, probably one of the more famous lines. Hey, Seuss, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.
00:31:03
Speaker
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curve ball? Still makes me laugh. I know it's coming. It makes me laugh every single time. I also like in one of the spring training games, they show Willie Mays Hayes hit a pop up and instead of running, he just drops to the ground and does push ups immediately. And then there's the scene. Willie Mays Hayes goes to steal second, dives, ends up very short. The player who has the ball is like waving them on like, come on. And then Willie Mays just gives him the finger. I think one of my biggest belly laughs is one of Willie Maysay's first games. He like actually gets a hit, but he takes the swing, and it's like kind of a swinging bunt, and as he's doing it, he just goes, oops. He says it so hilariously, like, oops. Team heads back to Cleveland. Great little foreshadowing scene. Jake arrives at the park. He's out there by himself, gets up to the plate. Calls a shot, miming, hitting a home run around the bases, and then the other guys come out, kind of give them a hard time. So after this, Taylor Hayes Vaughn, they go out to dinner at a nice fancy restaurant. And this is where we meet Lynn. And Lynn is, as Jake puts it, that's my wife. Who talks like that? Nobody says that's my wife about someone that they haven't been dating for years. Yeah.
00:32:12
Speaker
I do love how Hayes and Vaughn are like, does she know that? yeah So many good little lines like that. Season starting means that we get our first look at Harry Doyle, played by Playman of the Cleveland Indians. I don't know about you guys, but he's got to be my favorite character in this movie. Just the amount of classic lines he has and the way he delivers them. is so good. And when you think about baseball, you think about the play-by-play guy more than any other sport and being an integral part, it moves slow enough that a play-by-play guy can really, you know, paint a picture of what's happening and you can fall long in your head. But man, just the way he describes the games, the lines he uses, they're hilarious. va into the windup in his first offering
00:32:53
Speaker
ah a bit outside he tried the corner and miss yeah Ball four, ball eight. He's so sarcastic. One of the cool things, it's a little detail that they do. As the movie goes on, we learned from the beginning, Harry Doyle loves his whiskey. He's got a fifth of Jack Daniels right next to him and he's drinking it. But as the movie goes on and Cleveland starts winning, you can tell that he's drinking less and less of the Jack Daniels.
00:33:18
Speaker
right um Which is just a really nice touch. I love that. Hearing Bob Euchre as Harry Doyle brought on a thought to me of my favorite fictional announcers in sports movies. So I want to give you guys my top five fictional announcers in sports movies.
00:33:33
Speaker
Honorable mention, Vern Lundquist from Happy Gilmore. Now, Vern Lundquist is a real announcer, but this is a fake, non-realistic version of himself, so I'm going to count it here. He has some really funny lines. The one that always stands out to me is when he's like quite a large and economically diverse crowd here at the Michelobe Invitational.
00:33:50
Speaker
I would also accept John Madden and Pat Summerall from the replacements in this spot for a similar reason. Number five, Champ Kind from Anchorman. We never really see him announce anything, but his signature catchphrase, whammy, is ah very popular, which leads me to believe that he was great.
00:34:09
Speaker
Number four, Cliff Murdock. This is John Candy in Rookie of the Year. John Candy is excellent. Had so many good one liners. Number three, Jim Carr from Slap Shot. He played the straight man in hilarious situations and really added to the feel of the movie. He has a great line when introducing the Syracuse Bulldogs.
00:34:29
Speaker
Oh, this young man has had a very trying rookie season with the litigation, the notoriety, the subsequent deportation of Canada, and that country's refusal to accept him. Well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle. Oogie Oglethorpe, it fits into that movie perfectly. Number two, Cotton McKnight and Pepper Brooks from Dodgeball, played by Gary Cole and Jason Bateman.
00:34:50
Speaker
The most iconic announcers for ESPN 8 The Ocho. This is my favorite Jason Bateman part that he's ever done. That's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it pays off for him. And at number one, Bob Buecker as Harry Doyle in Major League 1 and 2. Was it even a question? The best ever, and it's not even close. Just a bit outside. Love it. That's a great list. I mean, if it wasn't for Harry Doyle, then I would agree that Cotton McKnight and Pepper Brooks would be number one. But I mean, Harry Doyle, he's just too good. He makes the most of his time in this movie, for sure. Yeah. So just getting back to that first game, we see the inability that the Indians have. The fielders are running into each other. It's a scene you you see at ballparks when they introduce bloopers all the time. You know, the three guys run into each other, the ball drops.
00:35:34
Speaker
Willie Mays Hayes gets on base. His line, these are my first steps towards the Hall of Fame. And then Heywood's like, you're not going to get far. With their shoe untied, looks down, gets picked off. Another great line. Harry Doyle says, I think we got hosed on that call. And it was like blatant that he was out. When Heywood gets up, he talks to Jake. He goes, I was your wife and my kids. That is something I had a friend. Anytime we'd play against him, he'd step up to the plate. That's the first thing you would say to me. It's hard to concentrate when you're laughing from that line in a game. Yeah. Also from the movie, home runs hit immediately. The guy's like, that's too high. It is a home run, like obviously a home run the whole way. And then what do you mean too high? What does that mean? Too high. There are some shorter scenes that are kind of sprinkled in. I'm just going to touch on a few of them. The scene where Jake sees land at one of the games, they tell him to take the bullpen cart. And I just love he's in full uniform, driving the little baseball bullpen cart to her place. Can you imagine seeing a bullpen car driving down the road?
00:36:28
Speaker
No, no, can't be street legal. ah The team goes on a road trip. Would you get on that plane? No, the Indian Express. That is the most terrifying plane I've ever seen. It's got no lights. The lightning is light. I mean, yeah, it's a death box. We're kind of nearing the climax here, but this is where we get Lou Brown. He learns about the plan to move the team, which inspires the cut out of her. Every time they win, they will reveal another part phenomenal. This scene inspires a sports montage. Perfect song. The best part for me, I don't know if you agree, but the double slide at home. It's the best. Two guys coming in, catcher trying to go one way. What do you guys think about the American Express commercial that the Indians get to do? My favorite part of that is when Rick Vaughn says, you can go to your favorite restaurant type places.
00:37:14
Speaker
You mean restaurants? Like, what are we talking about here? How do you think it compares to the Happy Gilmore Subway commercial? Oh, wow. I'm going to say that the Happy Gilmore Subway commercial is much better. That's better, but this is really good. It was a nice way for them to have some product placement in there. Before the montage kicks off and Lou Brown's trying to rally the troops and then Jake Taylor has that really famous line where he says, well fellas, I guess there's only one thing left to do. When the whole Great scene. If it doesn't pump you up, you better check your pulse. All right, so about the last 20 minutes or so is this final matchup against the Yankees. And it's to win the AL East. So the way the playoffs work back then was a little bit different. You won the AL East. You were automatically in the American League Championship Series. Whereas now, you have many rounds of playoffs to get through. Some memorable moments from this game. Pedro Serrano hits an absolute tank after he denounces Jobu. I go to you. I stick up for you. You know help me now.
00:38:10
Speaker
Jobu, I do it myself. Evu Jobu, I do it myself. Vaughn comes out of the bullpen. look I love that part of the crowd singing the song. They got the signs and just the, I hate this song by the owner. And then the groundskeepers are singing. I love how they keep bringing those back.
00:38:26
Speaker
Because like even when the Indians fans that they keep cutting to are like starting to feel more and more optimistic, the grounds crews keep just being like, nope, they're still shitty or whatever. yeah Finally, they cut to them and they're singing the song. They finally got into it. They're the best. A couple of other things I wanted to add here. Late in the game, I think it was the top of the ninth, Heywood comes up. They say, Heywood steps in. He's the American League triple crown winner. He hit 341, 48 homers, and he drove in 121 runs. That's a pretty good season. We meet the Duke, he's the closer, he's the guy that threw at his own kid at a father-son game. Before that, Vaughn comes into the game to face Heywood, and that's when we get Roger Dorn going up to him, and Dorn knows that he slept with his wife, even though Vaughn was tricked, he didn't know it was his wife. And you think a big confrontation's gonna happen, and Dorn just says, I only got one thing to say to you.
00:39:16
Speaker
Strike this mother out. I don't know if you remember from the TV version, which is probably the first handful of times I actually watched this movie. There's a lot of profanity. Obviously, yeah ah they have to do the either the replacement words or just like the cut it out. But this is probably one of the best slash worst examples of masking out profanity in the TV version. Dorn comes up and he goes, strike this guy out. They don't like stretch out because of the syllables didn't match. Strike this guy out.
00:39:42
Speaker
It's one of the best. So that is another thing that we would always say in baseball. Like you would hear someone call from the bench like strike this guy out again. Hard to concentrate when your whole team quotes Major League. And then Lou Brown, you forget about the curve. Give him the heater.
00:39:57
Speaker
So the murder in the bottom of the ninth, Willie Mays Hayes gets on, steals second, Jake Taylor comes up, kind of call back to that first scene, does the same thing, calls a shot, when in reality they put on kind of like a hit and run, lays down a very weird looking bunt. Willie Mays Hayes scores from second, Jake Taylor beats it out at first, and the Indians, they win. He slides! Here he is! Say, say! The it! win it! Oh my god, the Indians win it!
00:40:29
Speaker
All right, so the best moments from Bull
Best Scenes and Moments from 'Bull Durham'
00:40:31
Speaker
Durham. I love that first bar scene. We've just met Crash. We see Nuke and Annie. That's when Nuke challenges Crash to a fight. Crash says to him, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a boat. That's when he starts calling him meat. Love it. The water line is actually something Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda said in 1984, but I do think this movie popularized it. This is where Crash gives Nuke his first lesson. I'm Crash Davis. I'm your new catcher and you just got lesson number one. Don't think.
00:40:58
Speaker
It can only hurt the ball club. So then Annie takes Nuke and Crash back to her house. We get the what do you believe in speech from Crash. Some of the things that he believes in. The small of a woman's back. The hanging curve ball. High fiber. Good scotch. Constitutional amendment outlawing Astra Turf in the designated hitter. Opening your presents on Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve. It's a really good speech. It is a good speech. Then he just says to Annie, after 12 years in the minor leagues, I don't try out and leaves. He's cool. He's just a cool character. I don't blame him. I don't know why the both of them have first place. I mean, they thought they were going to get a little freaky. Check off something on the old sexual bingo box. I know why they went back. I don't know why both of them. with Team bonding, Austin.
00:41:42
Speaker
I think the most realistic thing in this movie is when Crash is walking back home that night, there's a cardboard tube hanging out of a trash can and he picks it up and he looks at his reflection in the window and he's doing a swing in slow motion. And if you're a baseball player, you have done that any time you're standing in a mirror or have something that looks like a bat. I think there are some little touches that add a lot of realism to this movie, making it known like, yeah, the director was a baseball player.
00:42:11
Speaker
I have a bat in my office behind me every so often grab it. I'll just take some swings up here. I love Costner talking to himself in his first at bat. He like calls time because he can't focus. The bat boy walks up to me. He's like, get a hit crash. And he just says, shut up. Shut up. But he gets away with it because it's Costner. Like anyone else could say that you'd be like, I hate this guy. Costner says it. And you're like, yeah, get it. Shut up, kid. That line makes me laugh.
00:42:33
Speaker
So throughout the movie, Annie will write something and send it down to the dugout to try to help the players with mechanical stuff. I would be so annoyed as a coach or player if someone was sending notes to the dugout trying to tell me what to do. Right. That person would not be welcome at the ballpark. The coach seems to appreciate it, though. Coaches were all about they're like us, Annie. Yeah. Oh, she chose Luke. Oh, he's going to have a great season. That means so weird.
00:42:57
Speaker
You know, if Annie was really a fan of the team, she would have gotten with the coach because of the coach had a good season. That would mean that everybody had a good season and the team would do well. Now you're thinking. So we got the batting cage scene. Crash gets out once and Annie sends him a note being like, meet me at the batting cages for batting practice. And it's like, who the F are you? Like I'm a 12 year professional baseball player on the brink of breaking the home run record. But sure, I'm gonna take some advice from you after one at bat. So they go to the batting cage. That seems whatever, but I do like the one point when they're standing face to face. One's in the righty batters box and the other's is in the lefty batters box. And the balls are just like zipping in right in the middle of them. Then Crash is standing on the plate. A ball comes. He hits it one handed. And then he's going and he's taking some swings. There's a kid in the background who's like picking up the balls like he works at the batting cage place. And every time Crash hits it, he's just staring at the ball in amazement like, how did you hit it that far? Gotta be kind of crazy to just be working at a batting cage facility and a professional baseball player comes in. I don't care if you're in the minors, if you're an A-ball, whatever level you're at, the ball still sounds different coming off your bat and you're still hitting tanks. That would be cool to see. you
00:44:02
Speaker
I also thought it was funny watching her swing and she's the one giving the batting tips. Kevin Costner actually has a pretty nice swing. He does. And Susan Sarandon does not know. She did not. I guess knowing how is different than being able to, but it's like when George Costanza gives Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams yeah getting advice. We won the world series and he's like, yeah, six games. yeah There's our Seinfeld connection. I love all of crashes mound meetings with Nuke. Everyone is classic in its own right. One of the first ones,
00:44:31
Speaker
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. More democratic. Then a little bit later, when he tells the guy what pitch is coming, after Nuke shakes him off, then he yells at the guy for showing him up. He's like, I give you a gift and you show him. I love that. I love that scene. Every single one of those where he tells the batter what's coming, every single one of those instances is very funny. I do like later on when Nuke's like, you told him it's coming, right? And he's like, yeah. And then he's just like, he accepts it. I love after that, though, whenever Nuke gets given the sign, he nods so exaggeratively. Like, yes, like full head nods. It's so good. I love his wind up, too. Like, it's so ridiculous with his head like, I mean, that's funny. I absolutely hate his wind up. I do from a baseball perspective, but I love it for how funny it is. They do a good job. He starts to build a lot of trust. in Crash and he's like this pliable young talent but it's really funny watching him like learn to listen and just accept Crash is gonna do these things to him. Well it's even like a little bit later they're on the bus and Nuke comes up to Crash and says, I love winning. You hear what I'm saying? It's like better than losing.
00:45:38
Speaker
Crash just looks at him like, this guy's an idiot. And then he's like, teach me something new. And that's when they do the cliche interview thing, which has a really good payoff at the end. Absolutely. I also like the lolly gag speech that the coach tells everyone to get in the shower, throws the bats and stuff. And he says,
00:45:55
Speaker
You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Then he just like points to Larry. Lollygaggers. I thought the two coaches played off each other well in those seats. The assistant coach is hilarious. He's really funny. He's a lot of like little side comments, but he takes everything so seriously. He doesn't believe anything he's saying is funny. So the head coach says at one point about crash, he's like, what's wrong with him? He's like, he's wearing garters and he's breathing out of his eyelids like a lava lizard, but he just delivers it so straight. He's not like, this is not a weird statement that I just said.
00:46:28
Speaker
So then ah Nuke is having a great pitching performance, and Crash tells him to throw the ball at the bull. And he's like, why? He's like, just do it. He does it. And then Crash says to the batter, I don't know. I wouldn't dig in if I were you. And I think he delivers the line really well. Like, I don't know where it's going to go. We talked about when he tells the second batter what pitch is coming. I love e that sequence, too, when he says to him, when you speak of me, speak well.
00:46:54
Speaker
They want to get a rain out, so they sneak onto the visiting team's field. They got the above-ground sprinklers, they just turn them on. Apparently, this scene was based on an actual event, so in the late 60s when Shelton was in the minors. The night before the last game, him and some teammates were out partying, decided to go to the stadium, turn on the sprinkler system, flooding the field to ensure a rain out. However, the other team's owner rented a helicopter to dry the field, and the game was played. Jeez. I actually had players. I didn't find this out until years later when they graduated, but I had players do this. We were supposed to have like an early double header and it wasn't supposed to rain at all. And I remember I show up to the field and the entire home plate was just like flooded. Like there was no way we could have played. And so we had to move the game. And then years later I found out that players had gone. They either filled it up in one of the dorms like buckets and brought it out to the field or they kept turning on the faucet that was like off to the side of the field and just like kept doing trips to flood the field. Oh my goodness. They did it and then they covered it back up with the tarp, the home plate. I still like didn't understand how it was flooded because it didn't rain. Players did it. And they definitely got it from this movie. That is hilarious. I do really like the last scene in the clubhouse between Crash and Nuke. I think it ties everything together really well from that storyline. have to add here the mound visit when all the players start going out to the mound. You know, as a fan of baseball and you see the mound visit, yeah I remember as a kid, you always said, what are they saying to kind of get in on that? And it's like all their personal problems or whatever else. It has nothing to do with the game. I thought that was a really great scene. Candlesticks make a good gift. I love how the umpires were just non-existent in this like 20 minute mound visit. No, they were like, whatever. All right, Austin, which movie had better moments?
00:48:36
Speaker
Well, I think Major League delivers a lot of like funny moments and one-liners and things like that. The moments that kind of stick with me, I think Bull Durham has bigger moments and I got to give the round to Bull Durham on this one. It's a very close round because both movies have things that really stick out. It's like one of those you flip a coin. There's a lot to pull from both movies and I feel like they're very different feelings from like the different moments that they bring up. I feel like Bull Durham delivers on like some big impactful moments. The baseball-isms definitely hold up today too in both. Like you hear so many of these lines today, which is cool. All right, we are one to one heading into round three, better title or soundtrack.
00:49:21
Speaker
Major League as a title, pretty straightforward. Couldn't really find anything about where that title came from. It's just kind of like, this is the Major League. Pretty vanilla. Doesn't really move the needles for me in either direction, right? Bull Durham, same thing. They're the Durham Bulls. So it's Bull Durham. I read that the nickname for Durham, North Carolina is Bull City. And so it's both that and I guess there was a big tobacco company that named their product Bull. And I believe it was named Bull City because of that. So again, doesn't really move the needle much for me. No, no. I've always wondered, yeah, I was always like, why did they flip it? Durham Bulls would be a weird title, but yeah. What do we got in music? Well, yeah, Wild Thing obviously is big in Major League. The group that sings the version at the end, the band name is X. Randy Newman has some music. He has a song called Burn On. Very Cleveland song. Yeah, the opening, right? Sets the tone. We talked about that. and Then we did talk about the music during the montage. In Bull Durham, very minor league baseball type songs. I think it sets the mood pretty well. You've got center field, rock around the clock. You do have that song from Inception. Nanje ne regretted reen. It's in a different language and that's definitely not how you pronounce it. But do you know what I'm talking about? The song that they play to wake up in Inception. And then the song that Nuke is singing the wrong words to on the bus.
00:50:42
Speaker
It's Try a Little Tenderness by Otis Redding, which is a really great song. Anyway, Austin, which movie had the better title and the soundtrack? I don't like this round, guys. They both leave something to be desired. At least Bull Durham has the name of the team in the title. in some order. And then, you know, in terms of the songs included has just as if not more noteworthy music tied to it. So I'm going to give this round to boderham Bull Durham. Bull Durham takes a two to one lead heading into round four. Plot holes, cringiness, random questions.
Plot Inconsistencies in 'Major League'
00:51:15
Speaker
Let's buckle up. Here are the plot holes for a Major League. When Coach Lou Brown is talking to Vaughn about his control problems, he points to a picture on the wall and says Ryan, meeting Nolan Ryan, had control problems at the start of his career. But the picture on the wall is of Sandy Kofax. Rachel Phelps attempts to break the team included an imposing improper locker training, conditioning room and traveling conditions.
00:51:39
Speaker
Such conditions would be a violation of the collective bargaining agreement between and MLB owners and the players union. So it just would never happen. So Willie Mays Hay stolen bases. He had 16 through the first 121 games. Then they show that winning montage, which was over 41 more games.
00:51:59
Speaker
And he had 78 stolen bases when that winning montage is done. So that's 62 stolen bases in 41 games, which comes out to be one and a half per game. I mean, it's possible, but that's insane. And then they said he only hit 291. Yeah, for someone who can't really hit. How did Dorn's wife know where to find Vaughn? I wondered this too a lot. He's not staying at a hotel. No, it's not like he was at a hotel bar and then went up to his room. No, it was just a random bar.
00:52:25
Speaker
Cleveland maybe is just not that big. So throughout the movie both Vaughn and Harris appear as starting and relief pitchers this typically doesn't happen throughout a MLB regular season. Maybe you get like someone with a spot start or like maybe one appearance in the bullpen to like reset the rotation but it wouldn't happen regularly for sure.
00:52:44
Speaker
So in the top of the ninth inning during the one game playoff against the Yankees, the stadium clock reads 10, 20 PM as Vaughn is coming in from the bullpen. And then in the bottom of the ninth, right as the Duke comes in from the bullpen, the stadium clock reads 10, 20 PM. So time stood still for that magical at bat between Rick Vaughn and Heywood. That pitch clock works, Rob. Oh wait.
00:53:06
Speaker
So one of the players on the Yankees is wearing number 37, which was last worn by manager Casey Stengel in 1960 and retired soon thereafter. This is a little thing, but like it would have been pretty easy to figure out which numbers were retired by the Yankees. Actually two players were wearing 37, the hitter and the runner on base. Not a plot hole, but so the game winning play when Taylor calls a shot and then buns, it's a little bunt and run. So Taylor calls the play relays the signs. Everybody's in agreement. And then the Duke throws him a brushback pitch. Here's the thing. Willie Mase Hayes would have been stealing on the pitch because Taylor already had one strike. There's no way that he would have relayed a sign and been like, on the second pitch, we're doing this. Because if you bunt a third strike foul, you're out. It was great drama. It was a great moment. But it bothered me so much. Cringiness. I got nothing. I do have a lot of random questions.
00:53:58
Speaker
I'm not sure front offices start work two weeks before the start of spring training. They like show up. They're like, all right, we've got two weeks of spring training. These are the players that we want. None of the players from last year all do players. You're trying to lose. That's what you do. Yeah, there you go. Are we all in agreement that Taylor was a real a hole in his previous relationship with Lynn? They made it seem like he cheated on her all the time and then he tried to justify it by saying, wouldn't you rather be with a man in demand? And then he says that this person bet him $50 that she had a better body than Lynn and he had to defend her honor. Not a great dude. No, it doesn't seem like it. When Jake shows up to that dinner party, the one couple doesn't know that Cleveland has a baseball team. That's ridiculous, right? Yeah, it totally is. It was funny. He's like, we got uniforms and everything. I love that line. Then they ask him what he makes and he says the league minimum, which at the time was $68,000 a year, which was well, well above the average family income. In 1988, like that's still decent. That's not bad. I don't think you're scoffing at a professional athlete for the Indians who's had a pretty good career. Two time ulcer. On a scale of one to 10, how dangerous is it to have a boat motor in a whirlpool tub where your feet are just like... 20? ...dangling by the propellers.
00:55:09
Speaker
Jake Taylor would have lost his feet. That was a funny scene though. It was a funny scene. Jake Taylor just gets in and out of apartments, like there's no locks or security. this is get Yeah, there's no doorman on that really nice place. What's happening here? Cleveland. This movie was followed up by the sequel, Major League 2. And then one year after the sequel's release, the real life Cleveland Indians would actually win their first American League pennant since 1954. Did this movie inspire the actual Indians franchise? Of course it did. For sure. All right. So that's all I got. What do you have
Plot Inconsistencies in 'Bull Durham'
00:55:38
Speaker
for Bull Durham? Crash Davis hits his 247th home run to set a minor league record at the time of the movie. So that's 1988. The minor league record was actually 433. Yeah. Seems like something they could have researched. ah Near the end of the film, Nuke gets called up to the Major straight from single A ball. It can happen. It's not out of the realm of possibility he would have gotten called up. He would have had to have had a really good last like five weeks. Really, really good. Also roster expansion happens once the minor league season is over.
00:56:08
Speaker
At the end of the movie, Nuke gives an interview at Arlington Stadium, which was the then home of the American League team, the Texas Rangers. At the time, the Durham Bowls were the single A affiliate of the Atlanta Braves, a National League team. The only way Nuke would have been at the Rangers Stadium would have been if the Braves were playing the Rangers in the World Series. And since this was an end of the season call up, it wasn't postseason play. Interleague play in the majors only started in 1997, which was nine years after the movie release.
00:56:35
Speaker
So it was just like, like, is it a convenience thing? Like they film there or like just some research guys. They put so much baseball authenticity in it. Just do a little research in this stuff. pringji um We have a gay reference because of wearing the garter. Are we saying this word on this podcast?
00:56:50
Speaker
You go the SNL, SNL version, Cork Soaker. Cork Soaker, we're gonna yeah do some replacement words here. That's good, Austin. That is the word that is what crosses the line with like real arguments. That is basically like the unwritten rule of saying like, throw me out if you say that to an umpire.
00:57:05
Speaker
It's a really good depiction of an umpire argument. I don't know if it's cringy, but in line with the other homosexual references. Agreed. The cork soaker thing stood out. All right. Just some random questions to hit you up with. Do you think Nuke would be banging someone right before his first start? No, no. There's a wild time in Durham. Did he go out ah with no warm up pitches? Yeah. He was like, I'm warm. Went out through 200 pitches, no warm up. He was was saving his bullets. Or was he? Near the end of the movie, they cut Crash with about two weeks left in the season. They say they're bringing up a catcher from Bluefield. The time of filming the Durham Bulls were a high A ah affiliate of the Atlanta Braves, while Bluefield was the affiliate of the Baltimore Orioles. Once again, just research. All right, Austin, which movie had more plot holes? You know, I have to go based on the presentation that was given to me here as the judge. I believe that there was more presented here to give the win to Rob on this one.
00:58:01
Speaker
Bull Durham takes a three to one lead heading into round five, our miscellaneous question of the week. I picked out five things to compare between the two movies and I want quick
Comparing Realism and Character Traits
00:58:14
Speaker
answers. Which movie had better, more realistic baseball action? Bull Durham. Oh, interesting. Okay. Nuke versus Wild Thing. I like Wild Thing. Crash versus Jake Taylor. Well, Jake Taylor's in the majors, so Jake Taylor. Religious guy versus religious guy aka Jimmy who got engaged five hours after you're giving Millie his testimony versus Eddie Harris who stole Jobu's liquor. Eddie Harris. And then fake Cleveland Stadium that was really in Milwaukee or the Durham Bull Stadium with the bull? Probably with the bull. Well, Major League wins that three to two. Rob, I sense a little hesitation on my judgment of the baseball action. I'd love to hear a little more. For me, it comes down to I think everything is pretty much on par, except for I think nukes like Tim Robbins pitching is so outlandish. Yeah, that's true. His head, his eyes. Do we go?
00:59:07
Speaker
That's funny. Nobody would ever teach anybody the pitch that way. As a baseball guy, it just takes me out of it. But I do think everything else is close, so I don't fault you on that. I mean, Costner's really good and believable. Definitely. I want to interject here, though. We were kind of going player for player. I want to give you guys my list of my top five fictional baseball players in movies for their level. So apologies to Pablo Sanchez. We cannot count him in this list. Poor Pablo.
00:59:34
Speaker
Honorable mention, I'm going to give you Roy Hobbs. So he struck out the whammer on three pitches, knocks the cover off of baseball 16 years later and smashes the right field lights to win the pennant. He would have been number one if he didn't get shot. I'll also throw Steve Nebraska in honorable mention, because we have no idea how his career went. But my man threw 81 pitches for 81 strikes, striking out 27 batters. And he hit two solo home runs in game one of the World Series, which is really impressive. Yeah, forget the immaculate inning. That is the immaculate game. Number five, Kelly Leake from the Bad News Bears. Kelly Leake was the best athlete in the area and perhaps the best Little League player ever who had to balance his playing with being a part time loan shark and led the worst Little League team ever to the championship game. Number four, I'm going with Billy Chapel played by Kevin Koster. They can say what they want about his 8 and 11 record in his last season, but he had a 3.55 ERA and spoiler alert, if you've never seen the movie through a perfect game in his last appearance ever. It's also mentioned that he won every award there is to win, which I interpret as Rookie of the Year, Cy Young and MVP, which is really impressive. And I know a lot of people are going to say Crash Davis should be on this list. And while he did break a fictional minor league home run record, which was actually 200 home runs short of the real record at the time.
01:00:51
Speaker
He was playing an A-ball after 12 years in the minors and got cut for a player they thought was better at his position. So if we're doing a list of coolest baseball movie characters, absolutely he'd be on it, but that's not this list. Number three, Willie Mays Hayes. He had a 291 average with an anti-launch angle coach. He was great defensively and he had a dominating presence on the base pass.
01:01:11
Speaker
Number two, Mr. 3000. We learned he had three batting titles, 2021 career run score, 2,218 walks, 1,808 RBIs, 504 stolen bases, and was a career 314 hitter. And the Harvard Sports Analysis Collective calculated he had a 466 career on base percentage and a 105.4 war, which would be the sixth highest in MLB history. Very impressive. And at number one, Benny the Jet Rodriguez. He was an elite base steal on the pros, an elite fungo hitter that changed small's life forever, and he outran the
Trivia Round on Baseball
01:01:46
Speaker
beast. Enough said. Legends never die. There we go. Willie Mays Hayes wasn't even invited to spring training. It was impressive raw talent. True underdog story. That leads us into round six, better trivia.
01:01:58
Speaker
During the 2016 baseball season, real-life then Cleveland Indians players Jason Kipnis and Mike Napoli acquired two Jobu statues and set them up in a shrine in the team's locker room. They initially placed an offering of vodka in it but then switched it to rum, resulting in a 6-0 victory over the Tampa Bay Rays. In July, they even sacrificed a supermarket chicken to help end teammate Jan Gomes' slump So the bull billboard offering a free steak if it gets hit by a home run was created for the film, but the real life team kept it even after moving to a newer bigger stadium. So even today, if a player hits the bull on the fly with a home run, he wins a free steak. And if the player hits the grass that the bull stands on, he wins a free salad.
01:02:39
Speaker
Did major league predict what would happen to the 1995 Seattle Mariners? All right, listen to this. Absentee ownership was more concerned with the bottom line than championships and always trying to relocate with Miami being the usual option. However, the 95 Mariners went on to an unprecedented run tying the angels on the last day of the season and forcing a one game playoff.
01:02:59
Speaker
After winning that game in the fifth and deciding game of the playoffs versus a burgeoning Yankees dynasty, Seattle's ace, Randy Johnson, AKA the big unit came out of the bullpen, a la Rick Wilding Vaughn to save the game. That is eerily similar. So there really was a real baseball player named Crash Davis. His real name was Lawrence Columbus Davis, and he spent three years, 1940 to 42, in the majors as an infielder for the Philadelphia Athletics before being drafted during World War II. After serving four years in the Navy, he enrolled at Duke University and ironically played ball for the real Durham Bulls and other teams until 1952.
01:03:35
Speaker
So Shelton approached Davis for permission to use the name, and Davis asked, do I, meaning Kevin Costner, get the girl in the end. Shelton told him he does, and Davis signed off his permission. All right, Austin, who wins? Better trivia. Some good trivia notes from each of you, but I gotta give this one to Alex. A lot of Yankee references, which I like, but a couple of those really sucked me in giving it to Major League. Well, that's three to three, heading into round seven.
Comparing Movie Vibes and Themes
01:04:00
Speaker
Better story, script, more fun.
01:04:04
Speaker
I think both movies capture the vibe that they're going for really well. Major League sets up what it feels like to be an Indians fan extremely well. Well, Bull Durham, I don't know how it's possible, but this movie feels like being at a minor league baseball game. You know, I will say that Bull Durham, even though it only came out a year before Major League, feels way older. I think in that sense, Major League probably can resonate a little bit more with a current younger movie fan.
01:04:33
Speaker
Major League is a true sports movie. The team has something to overcome. They have to fight for it. They win in the end. They brought up Bull Durham to Mickey Mantle back when it first came out. He said he actually thought the movie was really sad. He was like, there's so many players that are like Crash Davis who just, for whatever reason, can't take that next step.
01:04:54
Speaker
And so I think if you're viewing Bull Durham as just a sports movie, yeah, it probably is sad because you realize like, yeah, this guy set the minor league record, but like, that's not what anybody wants to do. Who wants to be that guy? I feel like you leave Major League feeling happier than you do Bull Durham. When you think about Bull Durham, it was never about winning. When you think about the the two trajectories of Nuke and Crash and the last scene, you see the payoff of Crash's character. When at first he's like, you could tell he's so jealous, like, oh man, like this young kid's getting up to the majors. Then he gives him some great advice. And then we go on to see, assuming that Nuke has some sort of success when he gives that interview, like, Hey, he actually listened. Like, look, my job is complete. And then in the end he gets the girl. So like in his world, like Crash wins, I guess, if you were to say like, put that spin on it.
01:05:39
Speaker
We talked about too, like what could stand the test of time, even like Annie's speech at the beginning, like I believe in the church of baseball, baseball always will make you feel nostalgic. I think both of those kind of hit on that too. One final thing about Bull Durham, it reminds me a lot of the office in the sense that the office came out, the writers always said it's a love story that takes place in an office. When I think of Bull Durham is very similar. It's a love story that takes place in the baseball field and it does that very well. I absolutely love it. But when I think of Fawn, I think Major League myself. I do think what you can say about both of these movies is that they have made mega impacts on the culture and game of baseball, whether it's through quotes, actions, mannerisms.
Final Ratings and Conclusion
01:06:20
Speaker
The impact that both of these movies had is astounding. But this is about which movie had the better story and was more fun. So Austin, as the decision maker, let us know who wins this matchup.
01:06:31
Speaker
You know, gents, you two pitted two very different vibed movies against each other. Both I think were very well done in the genre they are trying to service. And I can see why, you know, the critics would have such great views of Bull Durham, why you have fans of your podcast that were shouting that it should be, you know, at the top of your list. Both have great stories. For me, it's always going to come down to more fun. What am I going to watch over again? For me, that one, I had more fun with Major League. That would be the one that I would put on again and again. And so Major League is going to take this one. I can't really fight you on that. I think Major League is a phenomenal movie and your reasoning is sound. So congrats, Alex. Thanks. I was going to say they're both very rewatchable. What do you rank in these movies? I'm going to give Major League a 91 and I'm going to give Bull Durham an 87. Austin.
01:07:20
Speaker
I'm going to give Major League an 89 and I'm going to give Bull Durham an 83. I am going to give Major League a 90 and Bull Durham an 84. Well, Austin, always great to have you on the show. Fantastic seeing you guys. Love the show. Big fan.
01:07:37
Speaker
Thanks for giving me the win this time, Austin. Yeah, I think we've got one in one. We'll have to bring you back for a non-baseball movie. You guys say the word and I'm there. This has been the Movie Showdown with Rock and Rob. Make sure to like, subscribe, rate, and review all that fun stuff. And follow us on all the socials at Rock and Rob Show. Until next time, peace. I'm out of here. Just a minute outside. Go Yanks. Let's go.