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Let’s Get Nuts: Batman vs. The Dark Knight
167 Plays8 months ago
This week Rock & Rob throw on the spandex and venture out into the night to battle their first superhero movies ever on the show: Batman (1989) and The Dark Knight (2008). Keaton vs. Bale; Nicholson vs. Ledger; Burton vs. Nolan – this is exactly what this show was created for. Listen in as they put the two most iconic Batman movies through seven rounds of questions to see which one died a hero and which lived long enough to see itself...be rebooted three times.
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Transcript
Apologies and Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everybody, this is Rob from The Movie Showdown. Just giving you a heads up. I'm not really sure what happened, but my audio for this episode did not record off of the mic, but instead it recorded off the computer. I have no idea how that happened. It's never happened before.
00:00:18
Speaker
I try to get it worked out with the platform that we use, but it just seems like it is lost. So fair warning. My audio is not the best that you will hear from a rock and rob episode. But if you have listened to the show before, you know that that is not typically the case. So I apologize for that. Still a really good episode, but I am sorry for my poor audio. All right, let's get into the show. Ladies and gentlemen, can I please have your attention?
00:00:54
Speaker
Brothers don't shake hands. Brothers gotta hug. Your voice is like a combination of Fergie and Jesus. You sound like a friend of mine. I don't want your life. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul. OK. A simple wrong would have done just fine. What is going on, everybody? And welcome to the movie showdown with Rock and Rob. My name is Rob Mansfield. And with me, where does he get those wonderful toys? It's Alex Rockline.
00:01:23
Speaker
Hello, Rob. Thank you for that warm welcome. Well, you know what
Listener Feedback and Suggestions
00:01:28
Speaker
we do. We like to lead off with a five-star review. This one comes as a comment on our Mighty Ducks episode, and it is from shirkj430. He wrote, you guys are killing it. At 39 years old, I'm still a huge fan of this franchise.
00:01:43
Speaker
I've actually had some Instagram messages back and forth with the shirt J and ah he's cool. He sent me like some really fun ideas for matchups. I think that's like the most fun thing about this is just thinking of movies to match up. But one that he sent me that I thought was really cool was he said a night at the Roxbury versus superstar. Interesting. Like old SNL movies from the 90s. Nice.
00:02:07
Speaker
Sure, Jay, we appreciate your five star review. All right, let's jump into the rock question of
Favorite Superheroes: Batman Discussion
00:02:13
Speaker
the week. Who is your favorite superhero? This is a tough question. I've always been fond of Captain America and Spider-Man. But honestly, I think Batman has always stood out to me. I also have Batman.
00:02:26
Speaker
I love that he doesn't have powers. When I was a kid, he was my favorite. I watched all the movies. I even have the 1966 movie, VHS. Wow, classic. Right here. I don't know if you can tell from the covers, but they are worn down. That is a good sign. Superhero movies in general have taken over cinema this past decade, but for me, there is one that stands above the rest, and that's Batman. Alex, there's actually been 20 Batman films released. That's crazy. That's a lot of Batsuits. However, there are two movie iterations of the character that often get credited as being the best, and those are Tim Burton's version and Christopher Nolan's.
00:03:05
Speaker
So this week we are battling out Batman and The Dark
1989 Batman Movie Summary
00:03:10
Speaker
Knight. I actually think these two movies are absolutely perfect to showdown because there is so much crossover and so much to compare. Alex, tell us what movie you're repping this week. This week I will represent Batman. Summary. Batman must stop a maniac named The Joker from destroying Gotham City and murdering thousands by his weird chemical that makes you die from laughing.
00:03:31
Speaker
It was released on June 23rd, 1989. A little fun fact, this movie came out the same day as Honey I Shrunk the Kids. Nice little double feature there. This version of Batman is directed by Tim Burton. So we covered Tim Burton in an earlier episode this season. That was Beetlejuice and Edward Scissorhands. Tim Burton was 30 years old when this was released, which is pretty crazy. He was given the job after the success of his previous film, Beetlejuice, which I just noticed, I've said that twice now, so, oh.
00:04:00
Speaker
Don't say it again. Initially, Richard Donner was considered to direct based on his success with Superman. Batman was written by Sam Hamm and Warren Scaron, had a budget of $48 million. dollars Box office brought in $411.6 million, dollars which was the highest grossing Batman movie and the highest grossing film adaptation of any DC comic character until both records were surpassed by The Dark Knight.
00:04:26
Speaker
Rotten Tomatoes score of 77% and a Google Audience score of 83%. In order to combat negative rumors about the production, a theatrical trailer was thrown together and shown in theaters. The first time it showed, it received a standing ovation. That is a good sign for your movie.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah. So I think that's often a forgotten part of the Batman mythology. People were not excited about Tim Burton and Michael Keaton, which you do hear about that a lot with Batman. He's such a polarizing figure. Anytime there's a new one announced, they're like, Oh, I can't believe that person's playing Batman.
The Dark Knight Introduction and Comparison
00:04:59
Speaker
It's going to stink. And then they usually do a pretty good job. Well, and I mean, you look at Burton prior to Batman, he had done Pee Wee's Big Adventure and Beetlejuice, both well received movies. But when you then go and take on a project as big, and iconic as Batman. I can see the skepticism from fans for sure. It's just funny looking back just many years later and being like, he kind of nailed it. That means that I will be representing the Dark Knight. Rock, there have been two movies that I saw in theaters twice.
00:05:26
Speaker
The first was Jurassic Park when I was five. Great. And then the second is The Dark Knight. I have seen two movies in theaters twice. And if I were to give you like 45 billion guesses, you would never get the two movies. One of them was a big deal when it came out, especially within kids who read certain books that weren't Harry Potter. Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. That was one of them. Only because I saw it with friends and then my family wanted to go. So I was like, I'll go again.
00:05:53
Speaker
The other one, it's a Robin Williams movie. Newer or older? Older 90s. This is Doubtfire. Nope. Hook. No. Flubber. Nope. It's not even a good one either. I'll give it away. He's a doctor. Oh, Patch Adams. Patch Adams. Again, I just was like a sideways family and then like with my cousin or something. All right, continue. The Dark Knight is a sequel to Batman Begins, which is a great movie in its own right. We just thought it was way more fitting to compare The Dark Knight to Batman, with its obvious connections to the Joker in both films taking place roughly around the same time in Batman's career. The summary of The Dark Knight, Batman must stop a maniac named the Joker from destroying Gotham City and murdering thousands by basically blowing everything up. yeah Released on July 18th, 2008, directed by Christopher Nolan. You may know him from so many great movies. He also just won the Academy Award for Oppenheimer,
00:06:47
Speaker
So apparently the first four days of scheduled shooting of this movie resulted in no filming. Nolan actually screened two movies a day for the cast and crew to kind of get them in the mood and vibe that he wanted. So those eight movies were in order. Heat, Cat People, Citizen Kane, King Kong, Batman Begins, Black Sunday, A Clockwork Orange, and Stolic 17. I think it'd be really funny. So on the third day, they get called in.
00:07:13
Speaker
Today, we are going to be watching a great work of art. It's ah probably arguably the greatest superhero movie ever made. We're open to top it. Directed by ah me, Batman Begins. Yeah, won the Oscar for best movie ever. The Dark Knight is also the first time in feature filmmaking that IMAX cameras were used, which was really cool on the big screen.
00:07:33
Speaker
I remember that being a big selling point too when it came out. Written by Jonathan Nolan, Christopher Nolan, and David S. Goyer. It had a budget of $185 million and a box office of $1.006 billion. That's billion with a B. That's a big number. Rotten Tomatoes score of 94% and a Google audience score of 92%.
00:08:01
Speaker
Those were some big numbers. For the 1989 Batman, Rotten Tomatoes score is 77%, Google Audience, 83%. Those are really good scores. Then you look at this one, 94% and 92%. That's crazy. Yeah. So The Dark Knight was the comic book movie with the most Academy Award nominations with eight before being passed by the 2019 movie Joker, which got 11. So funny that two movies that featured the Joker took that.
00:08:31
Speaker
Alex watching The Dark Knight again made me think, is this the best direct sequel ever? By direct, I mean the movie that immediately followed the first one. oh So direct sequels, top five best friend challenge.
Debating Best Movie Sequels
00:08:46
Speaker
What's your number five? First of all, I don't think this will be controversial at all for our listeners. We know we're just going to rank five of the best movies ever. But number five coming in with Terminator 2 Judgment Day. Whoa, hot start for us. Number five for me, Terminator 2 Judgment Day. It's been a while for us, man. Could it be? I was waiting for you to come in with like Paddington 2 or something. that
00:09:07
Speaker
Alright, what's your number four? We're gonna go Lord of the Rings to two towers. Number four for me, Top Gun Maverick. I love the first one. Second one is arguably better. Number three, I have The Dark Knight. This isn't looking good for us anymore. Number three for me, The Godfather Part II.
00:09:22
Speaker
ah Godfather Part II, one of the greatest movies in movie history. Well, at number two, I have The Godfather Part II. Number two for me, I have The Dark Knight. So we just flipped them. Hey, we're close. Number one, I put The Empire Strikes Back. Number one for me, The Empire Strikes Back. That's my favorite Star Wars movie. Same. The original trilogy. I can still remember the first time I watched it and just being like, what is this world? And I am obsessed with it. Well, we opened and we closed.
00:09:50
Speaker
with the same movies, and we had a lot of overlap. Not bad. All right, Alex, this is gonna be difficult, but we are gonna do it. We are going to figure out which is the better Batman movie, and we will start it off with round one, best cast.
00:10:04
Speaker
Michael Keaton is our Batman in this version of Batman. We've covered Keaton before in for anyone that's curious. For anyone that's not spying on us. We love Michael Geaton. He's a great Bruce Wayne Batman. We can debate it a little bit more in a later round. His initial casting caused a bit of a controversy with 50,000 protest letters being sent to Warner Brothers offices. Imagine being so fired up about the casting of a movie that you took the time to write out a letter and buy a stamp to mail it. See, now people just send death threats on Twitter, so. Michael Keaton was concerned that Batman's secret identity would be easy to uncover, which I think is fair. And so he decided to perform Batman's voice at a lower register than when he was portraying Bruce Wayne. This technique became a staple of future portrayals of Batman in film, television, and video games. Mel Gibson was the first choice for the role, but had to turn it down because he was committed to Lethal Weapon 2. Pierce Brosnan also turned it down. Pierce Brosnan would have been interesting.
00:11:13
Speaker
I don't know if you could have captured the kind of humor that Keaton did. Pierce Brosnan, I think would have been like a cool Batman, but I don't know about a Bruce Wayne. He gives me more of like the Val Kilmer vibes. That's exactly who I was thinking. Willem Dafoe had been in very early talks for the role of Bruce Wayne slash Batman as Burton's original choice. Warner Brothers considered Bruce Payne to play Batman to have Bruce Payne as Bruce Wayne on their marketing, which seems like a great logic for casting. Yeah.
00:11:41
Speaker
Sure. So Michael Keaton has since become synonymous with the character Batman. He brings a level of charm and aloofness to Bruce Wayne that I think just works perfectly. There's a couple scenes in the movie that capture the one that I really like is when he's having dinner with Vicki at this massive table at different ends of the table, which apparently was Keaton's idea to sit that far apart. Do you like eating in here? Oh, yeah. I don't know the truth. I don't think I've ever been in this room before.
00:12:11
Speaker
Jack Nicholson, not to be confused with Jack Nicholas, which I confuse all the time for some reason, plays the Joker. Jack Nicholson is considered one of the greatest actors of the 20th century. We're not going to go through it, but IMDB him. If you've never heard of him, then maybe do a little research. The Joker's real name in the film is Jack Napier. This name is intended to be a play on the word Jack and apes, which is a medieval English term for a foolish fellow who resembles an ape as well as a reference to Alan Napier, who played Alfred in the television show Batman 1966 version. Yeah, that's interesting because Jack Napier original concept for this movie, not something that was steeped in the comic tradition. Interesting thing about Nicholson, so he actually was born and grew up in the same town that I did. And he was raised believing that his mother was his sister and that his grandparents
Joker Portrayals: Nicholson vs. Ledger
00:13:03
Speaker
were his parents. So his mom had him when she was really young. So his grandparents raised him. He had thought who his mother actually was, was his sister. wow I don't know how I would react if I learned something like that. Jack Nicholson accepted a salary of $6 million, dollars even though his then average salary was $10 million with a clause that he would take a percentage of earnings and merchandise from the movie. So he made almost $60 million dollars after all was said and done. Good for him. Robin Williams, star of Patch Adams, was offered and accepted the role when Nicholson initially hesitated. Producers then went back to Nicholson and told him that Robin Williams was going to do it if he didn't want to, which led to him accepting. Williams resented being used as bait and not only refused to play the Riddler in Batman Forever, but he also refused to be involved in any Warner Brothers productions until the studio apologized, which was about 9 years later.
00:13:55
Speaker
i don't blame it especially for someone of his stature like come on's wrong williams Nicholson said, the thing I like about the Joker is that his sense of humor is completely tasteless. He described the Joker as a psychotic version of Bugs Bunny and later said the Joker was one of his most favorite roles that he ever played. I like that description, a psychotic version of Bugs Bunny, because that is how Nicholson plays it. He is a little cartooning and a little comic bookie, but it it works. It's great. In this movie, the Joker, aka Jack Napier, was the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents, even though in the established origin story, it's Joe Chill. Batman creator Bob Kane approved of the twist, saying that if the story had been planned out ahead of time, he would have likely made the Joker the killer also. It just like fits. It just ties them together even more. Totally.
00:14:40
Speaker
All right, we also have Kim Basinger. She plays Vicki Vale. She was the original choice to play Vale, but her agents didn't let the producers meet with her unless an offer was made on the table. So Sean Young was cast instead. But then Young broke her collarbone while practicing horseback riding for a scene set on the grounds of Wayne Manor and had to drop out of the movie. Basinger received an emergency call one week before filming started and accepted the part. Funny thing about that is I don't recall a horseback riding scene in the movie.
00:15:08
Speaker
They were like, we gotta cut this. Michelle Pfeiffer, who was dating Michael Keaton at that time, was asked to audition for Vale, but Keaton was against it saying it would be awkward. Michelle Pfeiffer would later be cast alongside Michael Keaton as Catwoman, and Batman returns after their relationship had ended, which is a little more awkward. Robert Wohl, he plays Alexander Knox. Never liked Knox.
00:15:30
Speaker
No. But I remember distinctly growing up watching this movie being like, who's this guy? He's a tool. Yeah, he's a tool. um Steve Martin and Daniel Stern turned down this role. I would have loved to see Daniel Stern in that role. Michael Goff plays Alfred Pennyworth. He would go on to play Alfred in all of the sequels of this universe. He's a good Alfred. He's good in all the movies.
00:15:50
Speaker
I like in this one how he just keeps cleaning up after Bruce at the casino night like Bruce will put something where it's not supposed to be and he's always like right behind it. He's following around with the tray. Yes, very good. Pat Hingle plays Commissioner Gordon. His version of Gordon. So lame. Especially when you know what's coming. I'm excited to kind of break down what Nolan did with some of these smaller characters.
00:16:08
Speaker
Not that Commissioner Gordon's a small character. I mean, he's so important to the comics and I feel like Burton kind of just like wrote him off. He was definitely underused. Billy Dee Williams, he plays Harvey Dent. Billy Dee Williams took the role with the expectation that he would be brought back to play Two-Face. He reportedly had a contract clause added, reserving the role for him. During casting for Batman Forever, Warner Brothers decided they preferred Tommy Lee Jones and bought out Williams' contract. Williams also voiced the character in the Lego Batman movie. Billy Dee Williams, Lando Calrissian from the Star Wars movies. It's so interesting to me because I really only think of Batman and Batman Returns as like those are two movies. Yeah. Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, I feel like are separate universe movies. Exactly. Even though they do all technically take place in the same universe, they just recast people.
00:16:58
Speaker
So that's why when I think of Billy Dee Williams in that two phase role, I don't even know if me watching this as a kid, if I would have put that together. Yeah. Now, I do think Billy Dee Williams would have been an interesting two phase. Yeah. I kind of wouldn't have mind seeing that Tommy Lee Jones is phenomenal actor, but it's not like that was like a super serious movie. Yeah. Right.
00:17:19
Speaker
Ray Liotta was offered the roles of Harvey Dent, Bruce Wayne slash Batman, and Joker, but turned them down to film Goodfellas. He's got this weird scene in Feel the Dreams, when he's Jewel's Joe, that he does like this weird laugh. Ty Cobb wanted to play. None of us could stand a son of a bitch when we were alive, so we told him to stick it.
00:17:40
Speaker
and I'm thinking about it, I'm like, he would have been a deranged joker. Last but not least, we have Jack Palance as Carl Grissom. He's an old friend, Rob. Tango, Cash, Cash, Tango. It's the bad guy in that movie. He's like the same character in this movie. He's the same character. So this cast includes three Oscar winners, Jack Nicholson, three-time winner, Kim Basinger, and Jack Palance. Nice. I'm assuming for his role in Tango and Cash, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't fact check us on that.
00:18:09
Speaker
All right. For the dark night, we have Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne slash Batman. It's so interesting to see how different actors play Batman versus how they play Bruce Wayne. I think it's really hard to nail both. I think Keaton and Bale, they both do it extremely well. Bale's version of Bruce Wayne is funny in like a almost tongue in cheek type of way, but him sleeping in that business meeting after being out the whole night is pretty like that's funny.
00:18:37
Speaker
And I love when he shows up at the restaurant. rachel fancy that yeah bruce fancy that this is harvey dan famous bruce wayne rachel's told me everything about you i certainly hope not so let's put a couple tables together not sure that they'll let us oh they should i own the place How rich is Bruce Wayne, by the way? I can't even imagine. We have Heath Ledger as the Joker. Heath Ledger, you may know him from a lot of things. I know him from 10 Things I Hate About You. Another episode. Go listen to it. Ledger's Joker, arguably one of the most iconic movie characters of all time.
00:19:18
Speaker
Ledger and Nolan had met during the Batman Begins casting process for the role of Batman, but Nolan and Heath agreed that he was wrong for the part, so when casting the part of the Joker, Nolan had met with several other actors before Ledger but found them reluctant to take the role because of the popularity of Nicholson's.
00:19:35
Speaker
performance, but upon meeting with Ledger again, Nolan recognized him as the perfect choice for the part. I remember when Ledger was cast, and even I, a huge Heath Ledger fan, had my doubts, and he proved everybody wrong. The first trailer they put out didn't show him, but the trailer ended with his laugh. And it was like, there's no way that that's Heath Ledger. He blew everybody's mind. In preparation for his role as the Joker, Ledger hid away in a motel room for about six weeks. He devoted himself to developing the Joker's every tick. namely the voice and that sadistic sounding laugh. His goal was to create a tone that didn't echo the work of Nicholson. And mission accomplished. Ledger had to continuously lick his lips because it would prevent his prosthetic from coming off whenever he spoke. And that's why he made it one of the ticks of the character. He's like, well, if I gotta do this anyway, I'm just gonna... It's so unnerving too. Yeah. when you yeah But it works. Especially when he's like up close, like when he's talking to them about like how he got scars and he just does the, and you're just like, you imagine being that close with the yellow teeth and the tongue. So it's pretty well known that Heath Ledger unexpectedly died from drug toxicity on January 22nd, 2008, which made the Joker his final completed movie role. Very sad. There were a lot of rumors that playing the Joker had taken its toll on Ledger's mental state. However, his family has since put that to rest, stating that he had a lot of fun playing the role and his death was due to other causes, not anything related to the Dark Knight. Interesting fact, Ledger actually directed the Joker's homemade videos in the movie. So Ledger posthumously won the quintuple for his role, which is an Oscar, Golden Globe, BAFTA, SAG, and Critics Choice Award. This was the first ever Academy Award win for an actor's performance in a comic book film. The second was Joaquin Phoenix's win in 2020 for playing the same character in the 2019 movie Joker. Same character but different universe. Ironically, Phoenix actually met with Nolan about playing the Joker in this movie, but he turned it down.
00:21:43
Speaker
Unrelated but also kind of related, Christian Bale and Heath Ledger both auditioned to play Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Episode 2, Attack of the Clones. That's pretty cool. I think either of them would have been good. Yeah, definitely. We have Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth and he just transformed this character and made it his own.
00:22:03
Speaker
There's so much emotion behind what he's doing. And it's so fun to watch his interactions with Bale as Bruce Wayne. So why still? Well, because he thought it was good sport because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn I love when Bruce says he's going to turn himself in. Alfred says, I suppose they're going to lock me up as well as your accomplice. Bale just says accomplice. I'm going to tell them the whole thing was your idea. They have good chemistry. Just like someone you just want to like spend time with. We have Gary Oldman as James Gordon.
00:22:44
Speaker
And this version of Jim Gordon is amazing. He adds a lot of humor while still moving the story. There's a lot more humor in the Nolan movies than I think people give them credit for. You almost don't expect there to be because of the tone, but I love when him, Batman and Dan are meeting. Batman does that thing where they like turn and then they turn back and he's not there anymore. Yeah. And Oldman's just like, he does that. Yeah.
00:23:08
Speaker
We also have Aaron Eckhart as Harvey Dent to face. He was cast after Nolan saw him in Thank You for Smoking, good movie. yep There's a few lines that could compete for the most known. Eckhart has one of them and that's when he says, you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. which then Batman echoes later. You know who was the first choice to play Harvey Dent but had to turn it down because of a scheduling conflict? Who's that? Matt Damon. I can see that. I think Aaron Eckhart did a good job, but I'm a big Matt Damon fan. Yeah, same. Maggie Gyllenhaal as Rachel Dawes. So Katie Holmes played Rachel and Batman Begins, but decided not to reprise her role in the sequel for Only God and Tom Cruise Know Why. ah Morgan Freeman plays Lucius Fox. He's better in the first movie. I like his character arc more. but he's still really good. He helps run Wayne Enterprises and gets Batman all his gadgets and things. Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow returning from Batman Begins. Just mentioning him because he just won an Oscar for teaming up with Nolan in Oppenheimer. William Fickner, he plays the bank manager in the opening scene. Coming back on the show from his appearance in Armageddon. Got to give some love to our Armageddon people. We got a lot of callbacks this episode. I like it.
00:24:22
Speaker
He was cast as the bank manager because of his previous role in the bank heist movie, Heat, which Nolan used as an influence in this movie. Now I want to mention this character. He doesn't have a big role. Joshua Harto, he plays Coleman Reese. And so this character is actually an allusion to the Riddler.
00:24:38
Speaker
who attempts to reveal the identity of Batman, much like Edward Nigma, aka Enigma, whose name sounds like Enigma. Mr. Reese sounds like mysteries. There's a little Nolan play on this. They didn't end up going anywhere with it. He doesn't come back in the next movie or anything, but it was just kind of like a little in-universe joke reference to The Riddler. I do like when he discovers that Bruce Wayne is Batman and he goes and he tries to bribe Morgan Freeman's character and this is another Grey Freeman line. Let me get this straight. You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands. And your plan is to blackmail this person?
00:25:26
Speaker
Good luck. Good luck. Couldn't Freeman have just said that like they work for Batman? Like there's nothing directly tying Bruce Wayne to it. Yeah, you could have said that. I'm glad they didn't because it led to that line. But yeah, Eric Roberts, he plays Sal Maroney. Eric Roberts actually came out after the fact and said he prefers Michael Keaton as Batman and Nicholson as the Joker. He also hates his sister, Julie Roberts, and seems like a real fun guy. He just seems like a real winner.
00:25:52
Speaker
Bob Hoskins and James Gandolfini auditioned for the part. So one actor appeared in both movies, Batman and The Dark Knight, and that would be Paul Burchard. He was a reporter in Batman and a cop in The Dark Knight. That's cool. And The Dark Knight includes six Oscar winners, Christian Bale, Heath f Ledger, Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, Morgan Freeman, and Cillian Murphy. Wow. All right. What's your initial thoughts? Who's winning in this round? Oh man, a lot of legendary names on both sides. But Tark Knight, we're talking near the end of our list and you're mentioning Morgan Freeman like on one of the smaller roles. like Look, we can debate Keaton versus Bale and Nicholson versus Ledger and we'll talk about that in a later round.
00:26:34
Speaker
But I think what sets Dark Knight apart in this is all of those smaller characters that make an impact when they're on screen. The smaller characters have bigger roles too, which is really cool to see. It's not just about Batman and the Joker. All right, we're going to give this round to the Dark Knight heading into round two. Best moments.
00:26:55
Speaker
So I want to start with the opening scene. um Obviously when when we open with the Batman logo and the music gets us right into, wow, this is a Tim Burton movie, which is great. And you think of this in comparison of the times, people are used to the 1966 Batman movie and the campiness of it. And yeah it was light colored. It was pow bang, yeah all of that kind of stuff. You get into the Burton Batman and you've got the score right off the bat. You've got the dark The edges, it feels cold. Shadows, yep. Yeah, and you're like, oh, this is not anything what that other one was. It is interesting to talk about the colors because yeah I went back and watched a little bit of the old series and it's fun. It's great. But it's like even Batman, like he's got blue, he's got yellow, a Robin in his bright colors. Obviously way more lighthearted. I think it's so important to get you in the headspace for the movie. were dropped right at the Monarch Theater, which it kind of felt like they were going to do some sort of like origin to start. But really, we're just following a family kind of wandered on an alleyway and get mugged. Well, yeah, because outside of the Monarch Theater was where Bruce Wayne's parents were killed. And so when they show that you're like, oh, we're going to see this.
00:28:01
Speaker
There's a family, it's a father, a mother, and a young boy. So you're just like assuming, but we learned that it's present day, whenever present day is. The two bandits run off. The one guy's like really nervous. He's like, have you heard about the bat? And that's when we get our first look at Batman. See him in the background. He's got the wings out. He drops down. It's so cool. And he confronts the guys and he asked the guy over the ledge. I want you to do me a favor. I want you to tell all your friends about me. What are you?
00:28:29
Speaker
I'm Batman. It's the first time we hear the ah Batman with a deep voice and you're just like, Oh, that was so good. So just the beginning, any hesitation anyone had with how this would work out, I think is squashed. Cause you're just like, Batman looks cool. This Gotham looks cool. The music's cool. The voice is cool. I think everybody's on board at this point. 100%. Believe it is 18 minutes into the movie where you meet alter ego, Bruce Wayne. Yeah. It's not like a casino night fundraiser. We mentioned Alfred kind of following him around. So Vicky and Knox, they're walking around the mansion and they walk into this one room that has, it's like basically a museum and Keaton's behind them, just following them. They don't know he's behind them. But where'd this come from? I have no idea. It's Japanese. How do you know? Because about it in Japan.
00:29:15
Speaker
Who are you? Oh, sorry, Bruce Wayne. They don't know if he's Bruce Wayne. Right. And it's also where we see that Batman has all the gadgets. He sees the quick little meeting between Gordon and just like some random cop or someone else. He's got the surveillance in his house. He goes in and he can hear in on the conversation, which leads him to the chemical plant, which Jack Napier, he's like the right hand man of Grissom, the mob boss, right? The Axis chemical scene is great.
00:29:42
Speaker
the dirty cop Eckhart, who is just like the most gruff dirty cop stereotype. Just very disgusting. And Grissom set something up with him where he wants him to kill Napier in this break-in. And that's when Eckhart says to the cops he's with.
00:29:58
Speaker
Shoot to kill, know what I mean? I don't think you had to clarify that. I think everybody knows what. Wink, wink, I gotcha. We get to see Batman in action. He does that like corner punch, which is pretty cool. Him and Jack Napier fight. He shoots Batman, Batman deflects it and the bullet, you know, ends up going in his cheek, kind of disoriented, topples over, falls into that vat of acid or whatever he falls into.
00:30:20
Speaker
We're not really sure. We know he survives. We're not really sure what's going on because we have a back view of someone kind of like doing some work on him, but it's not until he goes back to Grissom's office. yeah He's kind of in the shadows, but he's got a great line in here. Jack is dead, my friend. You can call me Joker.
00:30:40
Speaker
And as you can see, I'm a lot happier. He kind of steps into the light. Great reveal. And then he takes out a gun and shoots Grissom in the most comic bookie ways. This is when we're we we start to yeah mix together some of the the darker, more serious in the comic bookie things where he's going to be on the back. He's doing like these weird like it just like proves like how unstable this guy is. And he's laughing the whole time like It's so important to get the Joker laugh right. There's different iterations of it. Nicholson does a great job. It's always laughing at the most inappropriate times. The next scene I want to discuss is the museum scene. The Flugelheim Museum, which I'm assuming is a play on like the Guggenheim in New York. Oh, definitely. I got a question for you. Have you heard of a restaurant like a fancy restaurant in a museum? I've heard of like
00:31:27
Speaker
a cafe coffee shop. Yeah, right. I mean, it's a pretty cool idea. Like surrounded by all that stuff. But so Vicki sitting there waiting for who she thinks is Bruce. Yes, she thinks Bruce made the reservations. But Bruce did not the Joker did there's a present on the table waiting for her to open with a note that's handwritten says put this on handwritten by actually by Tim Burton himself, which is pretty cool little fact there.
00:31:49
Speaker
And it's a gas mask. Next thing we know, there's just gas coming in and everyone's passing out, falling down the stairs. But luckily she's got the mask. Joker, this is all part of his plan. And so he shows up with all of his goons. Burton actually cameos as one of the goons in the scene too. Oh, that's pretty cool. So this scene in particular is pretty interesting. So Jack Nicholson is an art lover and he admitted that the part where the Joker goes and destroys all the priceless works of art is the only scene that made him uneasy. This is why the Joker prevents Bob from destroying one of the paintings, that painting being figures with meat, which was painted by Francis Bacon. That's when we first get the Prince music drop. Party man. I hate it and I love it. Yeah. It's cool, but it also it's like, why is there Prince music laying right now? And they're like all kind of dancing and then like he's like posing as like one of the statues and then he knocks it over. Yeah. i do kind of like what he does
00:32:39
Speaker
Then he finally sits with Vicky. He says something to her and she's like, you've got to be joking. And he says, do I look like I'm joking? And she's like, well, kind of. There's a lot of these little lines in the scene. They're pretty funny. Like when Batman comes in, he's got his gadgets and he rescues Vicky. Get those wonderful toys.
00:32:57
Speaker
I love that line. There's something else where Vicky accuses him of being something and then he's like, Oh, I thought it was a Pisces. Like it's just like yeah dumb little throwaway lines that are funny. After we get out of the museum, this is when we see the Batmobile. It's a very cool looking Batmobile, very classic. It's definitely like you can tell it's modeled after the original, but just like, a little burny. Absolutely. I did like too that when the Joker's goons are chasing them in the car, like the car chase, they have the purple cars with the green trim and like gold green wheels. That was a fun little detail. Pretty hilarious though that they would like decorate their cars to, you know, match. That was again, comic bookie. That's like the calling card of Batman stuff. You can be a little campy, you can be a little comic bookie, but it works. Yeah. The end of the scene when he's got like the grappling hook and he shoots it up and then he asks like, how much you weighs?
00:33:46
Speaker
She's like, I don't know, like 108. It gets stuck halfway up. Yeah, then later on he's like, you wait for the 108. He's just like very direct about it. That was very Keaton. Great scene overall. Very important scene, but I think it's like one of those ones that if you were to ask someone what scene stands out to you, I feel like this would probably be mentioned most of the time. The apartment scene when Bruce Wayne now is at Vicky's apartment, that's a great scene too, because he wants to tell her that he's Batman, but can't. He's not a very smooth Bruce Wayne. No. Bale's version of the character is smooth. But him stumbling over the words, it gets as close to annoying as that type of scene could get without being annoying. Right. I do like he comes in and he's like, oh, nice place, lots of space. And then when the Joker busts in, he says, nice place, lots of space. Yeah.
00:34:35
Speaker
That is pretty good. It's a very short scene, but there's a lot of like good lines. It's an important scene because this is where we learn. This is where we learn that the Joker killed Bruce's parents when he was a boy and spared him. So the Joker says something to Bruce. He says, you ever dance with the devil in the pale night? And that kind of sets something off. because that's what his parents' killer had said to them. And then he makes a point of saying, oh, oh that's what I tell all my prey. Which he had killed multiple people up to this point in the movie and he hadn't asked any of them. We might have one of the best lines, though, of the movie in this scene. It's Bruce Wayne. When he has the fire poker, he turns her around and he smashes the stuff and then he says... Now you want to get nuts! Come on!
00:35:18
Speaker
but Let's get nuts. I love that. It's really good. It's so funny. It's so Keaton too. It really is. Like the way he delivers it. Let's say the last act of the movie is the parade and then the ending. Joker holds a parade and promises people money, which is how they get them everywhere, poisons the balloons, which is how he's going to kill everyone. So we've already seen the bat mobile, but now we get to see the bat wing. It's really cool. There's also a scene where he's kind of swooping up and he passes the moon and he creates like the silhouette of the logo, which is very much like the bat signal. Yeah, it's awesome.
00:35:47
Speaker
There's a great part where he steals the balloons, he's flying off with them, and then the Joker asks Bob, who's his right-hand man. He's like, I can have your gun, and then he just shoots him like that. He's so mad that Batman stole the balloons that he kills his most loyal goon. He didn't ask him if he ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight, but he kills him nonetheless. There is a part in this scene which does mirror the Dark Knight. So Joker's just kind of standing there on the road. Batman is batwing, kind of like begging him to shoot him. And he knows that Batman will not shoot him. Instead of making him turn, Joker pulls out literally the longest Batman.
00:36:19
Speaker
You've never seen. Calmly long. And shoots the bat wing down. In one shot. It's pretty impressive. This is where we kind of come to the ending, which most of the ending is them walking upstairs. It's a lot of stairs. To the top of the church. We do get to see, you know, the little ah flower that shoots, aspid like the little clown flower. One of the, I think, most memorable gimmicks. I don't know if he's starting to shoot himself or Vicky, but it just, you know, the little flag comes out that says bang. classic Joker. I love the last little part. Vicky distracts the Joker by pretending that she's into him. And then Batman appears and he says, Excuse me, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight? But he says it's so monotone and then he beats up the joker It is a good callback. The end, we get the we get the real bat signal. The only thing that Jim Gordon actually does in this movie. When those like really big moments happen and like you see the origin, it's really cool. Yeah. And I think just the whole like Burton touch on this movie was really cool. All right. Let me talk to you about my favorite moments from The Dark Knight.
00:37:18
Speaker
Obviously, first thing I have to mention, the opening
The Dark Knight's Iconic Opening Scene
00:37:21
Speaker
scene. We talked about it in our last episode. In our opinion, the greatest opening scene in movie history. The IMAX, the score. It's so good. It just opens with the Joker holding his mask, just standing on a street corner, which would just be so creepy. Can you imagine seeing that? He has the paint already because when he takes the mask off at the end of the scene, you see he has the face panel. So he's standing there. It's like if you were to see that in real life, we watched the movie and you're like, well, like he's right there. Like what? I wouldn't do anything about it. I'd be like, Oh, get me as far away as this as I can. There's also the part when he's talking to the mob and he says like the suit wasn't cheap. You should know you bought it. And I just kept thinking like, how did the Joker buy a suit? Like, did he go to a store? Like, it does even Amazon account? Like, how did he do it? There's so many things I thought about him. Like, why does the Joker do that? Yeah. So this, in contrast to Burton's movie where they're talking about the rumors they've heard about Batman, this movie opens with the people talking about the rumors that they've heard about the Joker. And then one by one, they start taking each other out. Just a nice intro to the genius of the Joker and these plans that he makes. You know, he does the face reveal where he pulls the mask off and he says, whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you stranger. Even my dog was entranced by this scene. He was just like staring at it the whole time.
00:38:39
Speaker
But that rolls right into the Batman intro scene. All the criminals are scared. Some of them don't want to do anything because they see the bat signal. Gordon is standing by. They ask him, like, does he always show up? And he says, no. And they're like, oh, why not? And he's like, hopefully because he's busy. I just like that line. I think it's good. That was a cool line. You've got all the copycat Batman. But then the real Batman shows up. He does that thing where he grabs the barrel of the rifle of one of the fake Batman and just straight up bends it, which is awesome. It is. He has that line.
00:39:08
Speaker
What gives you the right? What's the difference between you and me? I'm not wearing hockey pads. I'm not wearing hockey pads. That's good. That's good. Every time I hear Bale's Batman, I can't not think of Pete Holmes's Batman impression. Pete Holmes, who graduated from the same college that Alex and I graduated from. Yeah. But he does a really funny Christian Bale Batman impression. Then we roll into the mob meeting. So the Joker shows up, he does that like weird, creepy laugh. He's got the purple suit on. And that's the first full reveal of the Joker, like his whole body. You're just like, oh my gosh. He does the, I'm going to make this pencil disappear. He like slams the guy's face. So it like shoots up through his eye. Oh man.
00:39:54
Speaker
Apparently that scene was shot over two days and 22 takes. Nolan wanted to stage the stunt for real. So the stuntman would swipe the pencil away at the last minute, but apparently he was knocked out three times from filming this scene because his head was actually getting slammed. So then one of the mob bosses say, you think you can steal from us and walk away? And I just love how Ledger's just like, yeah. Yep.
00:40:17
Speaker
Then that goes into the gamble scene. That's the first time Joker talks about how he got the scars. He turns to me and he says, why so serious? He sticks the blade in my mouth. Let's put a smile on that face. And why so serious?
00:40:46
Speaker
which became synonymous with this movie. But the Joker Scar stories, it's cool, it's a nice touch. I really wanted to hear the last one that he was gonna say to Batman. Yes, me too, every time. I'm like, ah, what was it? The theory is that he was actually going to tell Batman the truth about how he got the scars. Oh, okay.
00:41:02
Speaker
Batman getting Lau back. He goes to Hong Kong. That whole scene is cool. He shoots the little like sticky bombs on the window, then dive bombs, breaks through the glass, which a lot of confidence that he was going to be successful. What have you like tried to dive bomb it and hit it? Sounds off, credits roll. To move you over. And then you just see Lau outside of ah the police station with a sign that just says, please deliver to Lieutenant Gordon.
00:41:27
Speaker
Batman is doing a little bit of detective stuff to try to figure out who the Joker is. I don't really understand that whole fingerprints off the brick thing, but it was really cool. I always like when you see Batman being smart.
00:41:39
Speaker
Then that rolls into the transportation of Harvey Dent when they open the side of that garbage truck or whatever it is. He's trying to shoot the side of the SWAT vehicle. and Then he just takes out the bazooka. I love the driver. He's like, is that a bazooka? Then one of the drivers the dies and Joker like just kicks him out of the car. and he He starts driving. He's like, I like this job. I like it.
00:42:03
Speaker
it's good sounds good They flipped the semi truck, which was like they actually did in real life, which is cool. So Batman like does the Fast and Furious thing where he drives under it, but he attaches the cables to it and the whole semi just flips. Then Batman plays chicken with a Joker. um I mean, he probably should have just hit him. He should have just hit him. They catch him, they bring him in the MCU. This is where we get the big gif, the Joker clapping gif when he's named Commissioner.
00:42:30
Speaker
They bring him in the interrogation room because, spoiler alert, Rachel Dolls and Harvey Dent never make it where they're supposed to go. That whole interrogation scene is really good. The conversation's really good, but just the little subtleties. So he asks Gordon what the time is. Gordon doesn't tell him what the time is. But he needs to know what time it is because he knows what time the bombs are gonna go off.
00:42:50
Speaker
So he needs to know how much to stall before they can do that. If you notice Gordon, when he goes to uncuff the Joker, Heath Ledger peaks at Gordon's watch to see what time it is. Oh, okay. It's like just one of those little things that no one would really ever think of. So then that leads to Joker switching up the locations of Harvey and Rachel.
00:43:15
Speaker
Rachel sadly doesn't make it, which her death is gut-wrenching. And it took a lot of guts to kill her off. What kills me though is Harvey's reaction when the door opens and it's Batman. Oh, yeah. No! Oh, so good. And then she has to hear it. Brutal. The stakes of this movie are already so high.
00:43:33
Speaker
But this is what makes this movie different, is that it's not afraid to be like, yeah, the Joker's bad. But no, he is bad. And we're going to kill off this person who, at that point, you really grew attached to her through two movies. yeah It also just shows how smart the Joker is knowing that Batman would go for her instead of Harvey. But he knew in order for his plan to work, he needed Harvey to be the one that was saved.
00:43:57
Speaker
That whole creation of Two-Face, it was just really, it was smart. The comic stories, he got acid thrown on his face. yeah But I kind of like this where he was trying to get out, falls in the gasoline, and then basically just burns half of his face. A little thing in that scene. So Joker's still in the interrogation room. Batman threw him against the window, so there's some broken glass. He knows he needs to go make a phone call to escape. So he's trying to antagonize that cop that's watching it.
00:44:23
Speaker
And he's like, how many of your friends did I kill? And they have that whole thing. And the cops are like, you killed six of my friends. And then Ledger's just sitting there and he just mouths silently like, you like, ouch. Like, that's a lot. I mean, he's so good. He's so good. I know. I know. Then you get the him burning the money scene. This town deserves a better class of criminals. I'm going to give it to him. That's a pretty big line. Yep. You've got the hospital scene.
00:44:51
Speaker
So I don't know if you noticed this, when Harvey is holding the Joker at gunpoint and he's like, we'll flip for it. The Joker, as he's holding Harvey's hand, holding the gun, actually has his finger on the revolver's hammer so that even if he lost the coin flip and Harvey tried to pull the trigger, it wouldn't have gone. Okay, interesting. yeah He talks about not having a plan and introducing all this anarchy and chaos, but he knows what he's doing every step. He's always one step ahead.
00:45:16
Speaker
I like after they have that interaction as he's walking out, the hospital's about to blow up. He decides to use hand sanitizer. What is mannerisms? Yeah. The dude has the yellowest teeth you've ever seen, but he uses sanitizer. The whole detonator thing is funny how it like starts going off and he's like, what's going on? He like he's smacking it. And then the whole thing explodes. In the last Joker video with the news reporter, Engel, who I didn't even mention, he's the dude from the breakfast club, Anthony Michael Hall. Oh, which is crazy. When he's reading, I was like, why are the papers going up so fast? And then you realize it's because the Joker has him tied upside down. So then basically from the fairy dilemma till the end of the movie is awesome. So you got the whole criminals on one, regular citizens on the other. They each have the detonators. Neither of them do it. The big prisoner when he throws that detonator out the window, that was awesome. Definitely don't see that coming. You're just like, here we go. Like he's going to blow you because at that point you don't know what's going to happen because Rachel is killed. So it's like anything going to happen.
00:46:17
Speaker
It was actually confirmed that had the ferry passengers triggered the detonator, they actually would have blown themselves up. So then there's the hostage scene, Joker fight. Joker is waiting. It's like almost midnight or whatever time it's supposed to be. And he's like, and here we go. yeah And then nothing happens. And that's when he says to Batman, speaking of which, you know how I got these scars and Bail's just like, no, but I know how you got these. And he shoots the claws out of the whatever. And then, ah you know, Joker's falling down that the skyscraper laughing and Batman shoots the grappling gun and catches it. But how does that thing catch him? How does it work? I don't know. He's shooting a straight grapple. There's more of a chance that it's going to like stab through his leg. and just around yeah like right Where does he get those toys?
00:47:04
Speaker
Yeah yes the ending juxtaposition of gordon talking about den at his memorial but really referencing batman it's a very cool way to end the movie definitely so yeah those are my favorite moments what do you got for connections we've kind of teased some of these but there are a lot of similarities in references between the nineteen eighty nine batman in the dark knight. even more so than just sharing similar characters. Number one, in preparing for his role as the Joker, Heath Ledger was partly influenced by the surrealist paintings of Francis Bacon, including Figure with Meat, the same painting that Jack Nicholson's Joker prevents his goon from destroying in Batman. An homage to this painting is featured in Joker's video where he tortures the fake Batman whose face is shown with meat.
00:47:48
Speaker
Number two, in the 1989 Batman film, the Joker holds a meeting with the Gotham City gangsters, which results in him burning one of them to death via a handshake with the deadly gag buzzer. Similarly, in The Dark Knight, the Joker attends a meeting of organized crime bosses and kills a gangster with his pencil magic trick.
00:48:05
Speaker
Number three, the scene where Heath Ledger's Joker yells at Batman to run him over on the Batpod is reminiscent of a scene in Tim Burton's Batman where Nicholson urges Batman to hit him with the Batwing. Number four, when Bruce asked Lucius Fox for a new bat suit with a headpiece that is easier to look around in, it's a nod to the previous Batman films in which Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, George Clooney, and even Christian Bale himself wore bat suits that had solid headpieces that made it into impossible for them to turn their heads and instead had to turn their entire torso to look at their targets. This became pretty synonymous with the character. Number five. In the Italian version of the 1989 film, Jack Nicholson's voice was dubbed by Giancarlo Gianini. In The Dark Knight, Heath Ledger's voice was dubbed by Gianini's son Adriano Gianini. Number six, in the 1989 movie, Batman used the grapple gun on the Joker in their final confrontation, causing him to fall to his death. In and The Dark Knight, Batman also used the grapple gun on the Joker, but this time to save him from falling. Number seven, in both movies, the Joker kills someone with a writing tool. Number eight, in the opening of Batman, the criminals talk about the rumors they heard about Batman, which is in juxtaposition of The Dark Knight, where they talk about the rumors they have heard about the
Connections Between Batman Films
00:49:21
Speaker
Joker.
00:49:21
Speaker
Number nine, both movies feature scenes where Joker's crew breaks into a safe. And number 10, in Batman, while pretending to be into the Joker so Batman can save the day, Vicki Vale kisses his suit jacket, pulling Lint out of her mouth afterwards. In The Dark Knight, after arresting the Joker, Gordon says that all they found in his pockets were knives and Lint. And as a fun bonus to the original 1966 Batman show, the mask that Ledger's Joker wears during the bank heist is strikingly similar to the mask that Cesar Romero wore during the season one episode titled The Joker is Wild. Nice. Those are fun. All right, Alex, which movie has better moments? du The Dark Knight has so many just incredible scenes. like We talked about the opening scene. Greatest opening scene in movie history.
00:50:06
Speaker
Even some of these lines that are said mostly by the Joker that everyone knows, even if you've never seen the movie, I'm like, yeah, it's gotta be the Dark Knight. I think it's gotta be the Dark Knight. So the Dark Knight takes a two to nothing lead heading into round three, better title and soundtrack.
00:50:22
Speaker
So the score is Danny Elfman, which if you've seen any Tim Burton films, the score is usually Danny Elfman. And similar in the way that like you see a Burton film, you know, it's Burton, you hear an an Elfman score, you know, it's Elfman and it works so well. And like, we've talked about that opening now a few times. We know that the Dark Knight opening is like. You know, it's the best, but the Batman opening in its own right, I think for this, it was so important. I think because people were so unsure of what this movie was going to be. And it definitely like sets the tone gone are the days of Adam West and some of those campier. Yeah.
00:50:57
Speaker
So the theme was so iconic, in fact that it was used for the trailers of Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, despite the fact that Danny Elfman did not do the score for those movies. So it just became synonymous with that iteration of the Batman franchise. The other big musical part of this film is Prince.
00:51:15
Speaker
the purple one. He has his own soundtrack. There's like the official like score soundtrack. And then there's the Prince soundtrack, which not all of them are in the movie. Tim Burton actually disliked the Prince songs. You watch enough Tim Burton movies like that's not his style. No, it can seem a little random. I think like when you hear you're like, okay, obviously it was one of the producers ideas. I mean, the title Batman pretty straightforward. Yeah, can't really argue with it.
00:51:39
Speaker
ah So the Dark Knight, this is the first Batman theatrical movie that doesn't incorporate the word Batman in its title. And the movie ends by saying the title, or at least part of the title, talking about Batman, describing him as a Dark Knight, which is cool. Scored by Hans Zimmer, who is amazing. He wanted to use bizarre methods to develop this, particularly the scenes with the Joker. So that would involve playing piano wires with razor blades and guitar with shards of metal, which is real commitment. Yeah, he really went all out.
00:52:10
Speaker
Zimmer is amazing. The score is phenomenal for the Dark Knight, but you can't go against Elfman's theme. It's so tied to the character of Batman. I do like how they kind of kept using it even though Burton and Elfman stopped making movies after Batman Returns.
00:52:25
Speaker
If you heard the Elfman score versus the Zimmer score, I think more people would know the Elfman score was Batman. Exactly. Let's give this one to Batman. So that is two to one leading into round four, plot holes, cringiness, random questions.
00:52:42
Speaker
This is what I got about Batman. While this isn't a plot hole, this just annoys me. But why didn't they use Nicholson for the young Jack Napier? Like when they do the flashback of him killing Bruce's parents, like just use Nicholson. It wouldn't have really taken us out of it. It actually would have made it feel a little bit more cohesive. i Agreed. And it's not like the guy they used was like super young. No, he looked at the same. Yeah, exactly. Credginess. Just Knox wouldn't make it in today's work climate. He crossed a lot of lines with Vicky. Yeah. Random questions. I think Batman could have pulled Jack up or used the Batclaw so he didn't fall into the chemicals. I mean, we saw him do some pretty amazing feats. I don't think he would have dropped Jack Napier. He's got quick reflexes. Seeing as how he shot at him and he
00:53:24
Speaker
put up the slope ah shield So there's an American Express shout out in the first scene when the criminals are going through the wallet and they say yeah American Express don't leave home without it, which is a very notorious product placement. Do you know another 1989 movie? that did a big product placement for American Express. I'll give you a hint. We covered it on this show. ah Is it Major League? Yes. So American Express put a lot of money into movie advertising in 1989. That's great. The final confrontation between Batman and the Joker. Batman punches the Joker at one point. and his teeth are all bloody and then they pop out and they're fake teeth. yeah Like the little wind up like shattering. Were they actually in his mouth? I don't know. I think it was a gag. But they had blood on him. It was weird. Also like why do you carry fake teeth with you? Same thing like he does that fake hand thing where Vicki grabs his hand and it pops off. like Yeah, need a hand? Yeah.
00:54:19
Speaker
Like, when did he have time to change into the fake hand? Like, and like where was he storing this stuff? He's like, my I could die, but this bit is gonna kill. This is hilarious. So that's all I got. What do you got? All right. Yeah, I just got a lot of questions for you. Questions are just like observations, opening scene in the bank. Do you think that the bus crashing through the wall would have killed that thug? No, and I've always thought that and I know they wanted to go like real practical and it does look really cool. But you can see there's like a large gap between where that bus crashes and that guy flies backwards. And even if he was standing there, I don't know if that's killing. I just like banging them up a little bit. Yeah. So the bus crashes through is just kind of chilling there for a bit. No one outside was alarmed that there was a bus sticking out of a building.
00:55:00
Speaker
And we saw all of the bags that had to be loaded up. So it's at least sticking out of that for a a few minutes. Yeah, right. No one's like, hey, why is this bus in a bank? Right. Also, it bothered me like how there was a perfect gap between the buses for the Joker one to fit into the line. It's such a cool scene, but it's just like they could have really solved it by just having it just go on the end of a bus line.
00:55:23
Speaker
Right. Uh, when Batman lands on the scarecrow's van, it just stops immediately. Why is that? I don't think cars work that way, right? No, I don't think cars work that way either. not A lot of mechanic, but all right. In the mall meeting, how did Lau get the money from their banks without any of them knowing? Especially if it was that much money. There's a couple joker, like how does the joker like do normal people things? Where do you think he sleeps? Does he sleep? Nicholson's version of the character is just like more of a mob boss. Like, I get that. Yeah. But this version of the Joker, who just has no ties to anybody, doesn't even seem like he has like a hideout. He doesn't have anything. I don't know. Just thinking about him doing normal things. Yeah, he gets nice suits. He gets weapons. He buys makeup and hair dye. Yeah. Can you imagine him just like walking into a target? The cashier's just like, we've got some white paint and ah some green hair dye.
00:56:12
Speaker
You want to know how I got these scars? Yeah, no, I don't. I want you to really please. Oh, man. Wouldn't the ballerinas ask where Bruce was going? Yeah, they're like, oh, we have a perfect alibi. Yet there's a whole boatload of ballerinas that just saw Bruce Wayne fly off in a rinky dink plane. Very weird. ah How do you think the Joker got like 10,000 Joker cards for the explosion of the judge's car? He had a lot of Joker cards to play with.
00:56:39
Speaker
Do you think they sell just sets of Joker cards? Maybe he's got a guy. He's got a guy. um How did Batman get to Dent's location so much faster than the cops got to Rachel's? Were there no cops out on patrol that could have been closer? right Doesn't that seem like a big flaw? You tell me there's no cops, you'd be like, hey, go to this location. I know. All right, this one has always bugged me. How did Harvey Dent not realize it was the Joker in the hospital until he took the surgical mask off? Cause he has freshly painted white paint. Yeah. Did he think it was just like some, yeah. A very pasty nurse. I know. He doesn't like react until the Joker takes off the surgical mask and then he gets real angry and it's like, yeah yeah how did you not know that was him the entire time? That is that reaction. Like I'm going to get you. Okay. How did the Joker get the bombs in the hospital and the ferries with no one noticing? That's a great question.
00:57:30
Speaker
How do you get that much bombs or whatever into a hospital? And then the ferries, like they use the ferry. Yeah. I mean, maybe I guess you could have snuck that night. But how many people did he have working for him to do this? That was a lot of like drums of gasoline. and Yes, he must have had a lot of people. ah Batman killed the dogs in the end fight, right? oh He like threw them down the elevator shaft, right? Yeah. Batman, not an animal lover. No, except for bats. And cats. Catwoman. Get it. I do. All right. Last one is the Joker, a secret fan of romance movies. All right. You ready for this? He says to Batman, you complete me, which is a direct reference to Jerry McGuire. And then as he attacks Batman in the end fight, he says all the old familiar places, which is referring to the song. I'll be seeing you. That was heavily featured in the movie, the notebook.
00:58:17
Speaker
One more and I would say 100%. I don't know. that You complete me. It is funny to think of the Joker watching Jerry Maguire just like on repeat. It's his favorite movie. I needed one more quote from him. Just being like, I'm just a criminal standing in front of a vigilante asking him to kill me.
00:58:37
Speaker
That's funny though. I can't even. There are so many more questions and like observations in the Dark Knight. We got to give this point to Batman. Yeah, I think so too. All right. We are two to two heading into round five is our miscellaneous question of the week. I've got some quick head-to-head matchups.
00:58:56
Speaker
First and foremost, the Keaton versus Bale debate. I looked it up. A lot of polls have Keaton as the best Batman. A lot of polls have Bale. Who you taking? Bale. I think I got to go Bale too. I think Keaton's Batman is better, yeah but I think Bale's Bruce Wayne is a little bit more believable. There's a further gap between their Bruce Waynes than there is their Batman. So I think you're right. I'm going to Bale there too. Yep. Big one here, Nicholson or Ledger? This is so tough. I'm going to go Ledger. Michael Caine went Ledger and I respect Michael Caine a lot. So I think I got to go that too. Apparently, the first scene that they had together was when the Joker goes to Bruce Wayne's penthouse and he had never seen Ledger in the whole get up before. So when he showed up and performed, Caine was so scared that he forgot his lines. That's awesome. Ledger won the Oscar.
00:59:42
Speaker
Ledger transformed villain performance in movies. It was so good. Uh, my favorite joker though, Alex, Mark Hamill, the cartoon one. Nice. My least favorite joker, Jared Leto. Terrible. Makes no sense for any version of the character. I literally would put Dwight and Kevin from The Office as better jokers than Jared Leto. Oh man. All right. Burton's Gotham or Nolan's? Burton. It just feels more, uh, a character. Bespoke. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It's created for this universe.
01:00:13
Speaker
Which bat suit was better? Batman, 89. I like the yellow touches. I like how his wings functioned. Probably he could like hold them out straight. Did you know the shoes for the Burton bat suit were actually made by Nike and had the logo on it. They're all black, but you could kind of tell they were Nikes. That's pretty sweet. Which Batmobile was cooler? Batman, 89. The tumbler is a cool idea, but the Batmobile is like, that's the Batmobile. Exactly. Which Alfred? Michael Caine. easily. Which Harvey Dent? Dark Knight. Alright, so that gives us Dark Knight winning that round, leading three to two, heading into round six. Before we get into that, though, let me give you my top five Batman honorable mention Keanu Reeves and Will Arnett. Keanu played Batman in DC League of Super Pets and Will Arnett plays the Lego version of the character and is so funny. You know, I got to give Keanu a shout out any chance I can get. And that was also the first movie that Wes ever saw. Nice.
01:01:07
Speaker
Number five, Robert Pattinson. We've only seen him once as the character. We got a sequel coming out. I'm interested in seeing what he does with it. My one critique of him is he walks really slow. That was like a three hour movie that could have been two hours if he just like picked up the pace of his walking.
01:01:23
Speaker
He really lumbered. Number four, the OG Adam West. It's real cheesy, but I still love it. I got the original VHS right here. So I got to give Adam West a little bit of credit. Number three, Kevin Conroy. He was the voice of Bruce Wayne and Batman on the TV show and in the video games. Such an iconic voice. You can't hear that and not think of Batman.
01:01:47
Speaker
Number two, I'm going Michael Keaton for the reason stated before Keaton is great. He reinvented the character. He created the deep voice to disguise the identity. He brought some of the unintentional humor to the Bruce Wayne part of the character, and he does a really good job as Batman. But I got to give number one to Christian Bale. The Nolan Batman universe is amazing. Bale was a perfect fit for that. While I think Keaton's portrayal of Batman is better, I think Bale's portrayal of Bruce Wayne is what separates him and takes the top spot. All right, round six, better trivia.
Influence of 1989 Batman on Cinematic Storytelling
01:02:28
Speaker
The police file on Jack Napier lists his date of birth as April 22nd, 1937, which is Jack Nicholson's actual date of birth. Nice. It's actually Bob's birthday, not the year, but the day. Really? ye Shout out Bob. He's a big original Batman fan. If I was home sick and he was he stayed home with me, we would watch the original Batman. That's awesome.
01:02:49
Speaker
While filming the chase scene with the Joker and the SWAT fans, one of only four IMAX cameras in the world at the time was destroyed. Ooh, that's tough. Wow. All right. At the beginning of the film, Knox enters the press room and is handed a cartoon sketch of a Batman, which is a bat in a pinstripe suit. It is signed by Bob Kane, who is the co-creator of the Batman comic book. And he actually drew the picture for the movie. That's cool. So the hospital that the Joker blows up was actually in out of use candy factory in the Chicago suburbs. It was redressed and imploded for the movie. It's cool that was real. I got to give this one to you. The Bob Kane, like actual drawing in the movie and sign, like that's pretty cool. So we'll go Batman here. That gives us three to three tie heading into round seven. Better story, script, more fun.
01:03:40
Speaker
Burton and Nolan both credit the Burton film with being the first to make a darker comic adaption, something that is now commonplace in Batman and superhero movies. Even though when Burton looks back on his film now, he thinks they're lighthearted compared to the modern Batman ones, which is probably true. The Dark Knight, though, as stated, arguably the best sequel of all time. It's top five for sure. It could have easily felt overstuffed plot-wise. I mean, there's a lot that happens.
01:04:08
Speaker
But it manages to keep the story moving at such a great place, like it teeters right on the edge of like, oh, this is too much. It just never crosses that line. That's a really good testament to the writing and the directing of it.
Improvised Ending of 1989 Batman
01:04:21
Speaker
I do think where we can kind of determine this category, though, is the last set piece of each movie. It's an interesting contrast.
01:04:29
Speaker
When they were filming the 89 Batman, they actually didn't have an ending in place. So that's why they kind of do that like stair walk. There's a lot of time spent walking and they're up there and it's like, what's his plan? Like this whole time he has all these really great plans and ideas. And then his like last plan is I'm going to take this girl to the top of a bell tower and wait for my Joker plane to come down. Like, I don't know.
01:04:52
Speaker
One of the Joker's strongest attributes is his plans. He's always one step ahead and like ultimately like what is his downfall in The Dark Knight. His plan should have worked, you know, when you think about it. But in this one, it's just like, yeah, it just kind of like runs out of steam at the end. Yeah. There's no question that the script in The Dark Knight, it's super tight. There's some like, how did that happen type of questions, but the actual plot beats and the intricacies of the Joker's plans, it really flows nicely together.
Burton's Batman vs. The Dark Knight: Which is Superior?
01:05:22
Speaker
They're both great. What Burton's film did for the superhero genre, it can't be overstated, but The Dark Knight as a movie, in my opinion, is superior. It's something we've talked about in past episodes where like you have two very similar things and what's more important, the one that came first or the one that used that for inspiration and made it better. I think for me, though, it's the ending for Batman. It's just like It is almost a little anticlimactic when it's like all these plans and like one step ahead and they're kind of like playing chess against each other almost. And then like, he just kind of like falls to his death. All right. I think we're going to give this to
Winner of Batman Movie Showdown and Closing Thoughts
01:05:57
Speaker
the Dark Knight. It's so close. Even like that category with the back and forths, like he could have gone either way. But I think for me, the Dark Knight should take better story, better script, just how tight it is and how it resolves so nicely. All right, well, The Dark Knight is the winner of our Batman movie showdown. That was a fun one. I could have seen it going either way, and I still could see it going either way. Yeah. All right, what are your rankings? Batman, I'm going to go 89. Dark Knight, I'm going to go 97. I'm going Batman, a 91. And The Dark Knight, a 98. Nice. I can only think of one movie that I would rank higher than The Dark Knight. Yeah, what's up? Just off the top of my head. Jurassic Park. Yeah. Jurassic Park is a 99.9999999 for me. I can't disagree with that. Well, this has been The Movie Showdown with Rock and Rob. Make sure to like, subscribe, rate, and review all that fun stuff. And follow us on all the socials at Rock and Rob Show. Until next time, peace. I'm out of here. Let's get nuts.