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Buddy Read: American Dreams series by Jean Ferris
121 Plays2 months ago
Erin and Ingrid imprinted on the American Dreams series by Jean Ferris back when they were baby romance readers. Holly had never read them, so we decided it was time.
So without further ado, here's our discussion of Into the Wind, Song of the Sea, andWeather the Storm.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction to the 'Smart Report'
00:00:00
Speaker
Now that I've read it, I understand. I understand Aaron and Ingrid and their romance preferences so much more. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Smart Report!
Impact of the American Dream Series
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, welcome to the Smart Report. I'm Ingrid. I'm Holly. And I'm Aaron. And we're reading, buddy reading, ah books that actually were Aaron and I's entrance into romance in the not super distant past, right? We're reading the American Dream series by Jean Ferris, which is Into the Wind, Weather the Storm, and Song of the Sea. And we and made Holly reread them, not as a preteen, a wash with hormones, but as a fully grown woman. So this is going to be a very fun conversation.
00:00:44
Speaker
yeah
Nostalgia for Library Trips and Reading Habits
00:00:45
Speaker
Yeah, it was it' interesting reading these books that were like, you know, the books that are like so important to somebody else when they were a teenager, and then you read them and you're like, huh. Yeah. So for the backstory here, Erin and I and being pre-teens who were not, ah you know, did not have a ton of access to technology and had a healthy level of boredom in the summer.
00:01:07
Speaker
We spent a lot of time going to the library, and at one of those library jaunts, we found them and we were so obsessed with them that we would trade back and forth checking them out, the series from the library. And in fact, if I recall correctly, there were multiple times where we would just read back and forth the books in the backseat of the minivan. We loved it.
00:01:30
Speaker
the other thing is like this was during the heyday of like zebra regency romance and so or like signet regency romance like similar length like category length and of all of the ones that we read and we used to like walk to kmart to buy them we used to read borrow them all from the library i even remember the shell i could picture the shelves in my in my mind. Yeah. The spinny shelves? No, actually. Was it the spinny racks? No, it was next to the spinny racks for these particular points. I think the spinny racks had like the avons, right? Had the
Books with Lasting Impressions
00:02:07
Speaker
bigger avons. I also went to the same library, but Dai was not getting the zebra romances.
00:02:13
Speaker
so So, yeah, I'm just thinking like, and I had a big collection of them for a long time, but ah this is the one, there's one other one that I got in high school that I still have that I think aged absolutely atrociously, but I still have it. And then this is the only other one that I kept. and that I can remember really well. So yeah it was something about it yeah captured my attention and stuck much better than any of the other you know hundreds of little books that we read. Well, and to be fair, we were reading them by the literal sackful. So it wasn't like we just had like these three and that was it. I mean, it was like like big, deep grocery sacks full of books. I remember the librarian one time saying, how are you going to read all these? And we're like, we'll see you next week. like
00:02:59
Speaker
We read them voraciously. i do Sometimes I sit there and I think about all these parents who were horrified at the idea of their children playing too many video games or watching too many screens and then I was sitting there like, well, okay, but were they also reading romance novels on their butts, on the couch, in the air conditioning, like literally for an entire summer.
00:03:19
Speaker
staying up late reading. in our bike ride loops yeah Our parents got worried about us and they made us go do physical exercise because we were sitting on our high knees on the couch for literal days at a time. Breakfast and lunch and staying up late. I mean, it was it was kind of it was kind of a problem. I would be concerned if I were a parent and my child was doing that. But anyhow, that that was the time. This sets the stage for why Erin and I found this and then could not be stopped. And to this day, apparently,
00:03:46
Speaker
have no interest in stopping. so Anyhow, but this was the start. This was the beginning for us. so thanks Thank you, Howard County Public Library. yeah
Personal Anecdotes and the Value of Libraries
00:03:53
Speaker
like Thanks, Public Library, just period. In general. In general, but you know shout out to the Miller branch. That's right. Keeping it real. I also snagged myself a husband at the Miller branch. Aaron's hot dates.
Accessibility of Books for Teens
00:04:14
Speaker
So anyway, yeah, that's kind of, that's how it started. And you know, it's funny because I see all these conversations about, you know, like, oh, like having these books accessible for teens. And I'm just sitting here thinking like this, some of these books are relatively wholesome, but not all of them, I suppose. But I mean, like, it could be way worse, guys. So much worse. so But I mean, this is this is also why like all this book banning just me is like so upsetting because yeah, the library was such a great place for us, all of us. Well, and it I mean, it think about I mean, like we yeah the books we were consuming, there was a wide variety of books, right? So like,
00:04:50
Speaker
Aaron and Holly went down more of the, um you know, Bada's ripper books and I definitely got Sky O'Malley. See, I might, I might i feel like I was about to lie and say I definitely got Bertra small out of the library when I was 16 years old.
00:05:09
Speaker
i mean I got another one. Anyway, but the but maybe not. Maybe I got it from a friend. But the point is, sorry, go ahead Ingrid. The point is, is that there's a huge spectrum of these books and that and that there's there's so many differences that like ah you know writing off something like that because kids might be exposed to sex is ridiculous because there are so many different ways for it to be depicted on the page. Some ways it's healthy and also honestly,
00:05:35
Speaker
One of the things that you know I think we experience when we read all these books is that it really helps you figure out like what resonates with you, what you're interested in. it It's important for kids to to have those opportunities to think through what fits right or feels right for them in a safe space.
Plot and Character Development in the Series
00:05:49
Speaker
and Guess what? like The library and in a book is about as safe as it can get. you know We talk about that all the time. like Stuff that you read might not necessarily be something that you're interested in but I think it's you know Anyway, but to reel it back. We made Holly read them. They did make me read them we did er one Should we do our one sentence summary? Yeah, and I would be really curious. I kind of want Holly to go first Erin I feel like I should go first. All right, let's do this. Okay, so Rosie after her life falls apart is taken aboard a ship and has a lot of adventures and gets a makeover and and learns that maybe love is not a bad thing and then falls in love. That's my one sentence summary.
00:06:36
Speaker
Okay, okay, here's my, here's my one. Okay, with with the caveat to listeners that I'm sorry, I didn't quite finish. This is these are 350 200 page books, and I have about 50 pages left in the third one.
00:06:53
Speaker
So, snack they're snacks. They're little snacks. I'm not sure that you're missing much of the last page. I know what's gonna happen. broad strokes. But there might there might be a twist at the end that I don't know about. but My prediction, I feel like Holly did this on purpose so that she didn't have to be like, I read it and I don't like it. So she this way we can be like, well, you didn't finish it. So you probably like it if you finished it. and We can just keep our, yeah, we can like asterisk it. It was kind of a generous gesture of her. But yeah, so here's here's my sentence is that
00:07:25
Speaker
and Rader burns down Rosie's home and kills her father, right? and ah So he rescues her and takes him on her pirate ship, where yeah where she ends up getting tossed around
Romantic Dynamics and Tropes
00:07:44
Speaker
and tangled into Rader's quest to find his or twin brother's situation. And eventually the two of them have to reconcile there.
00:07:56
Speaker
pasts and their futures and decide whether they want to have a relationship basically. Reconcile their pants feels. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:11
Speaker
That was like kind of long for you, Ingrid. Let's see. Well, it's a whole trilogy. Yeah, that's three books. And there's a lot going on. It's just not, you know, not a lot going on. But you know, enough. There's like a lot of characters.
00:08:24
Speaker
yeah All right, here's my story. This is so entertaining for me. Rosie keeps getting kidnapped by pirates, but some of them are nice and some of them are mean. And she has emotional intelligence, well, radar.
00:08:49
Speaker
is an angst king. And it's delightful.
00:08:56
Speaker
So basically it's teenagers being teenagers. Yeah. But on boats. And cannons. And like swords and shit. I don't know, I have a theory now that we're talking about it that I feel like these may very well be the books that got Aaron all hot and bothered and stressed out when characters just don't talk it out. Because like the entire thing could be in like the all three books could be in one book, if anybody would just open their mouths and say words to anyone else. Yeah, like if
00:09:27
Speaker
I mean, you know, there's like the twist about like the relationships that were very obvious. I mean, maybe they weren't obvious to you guys the first time you read them, but probably not. I remember. but I know. but I remember reading it and being like, hold the phone like multiple times. And now I'm just like, Oh, sweet baby Ingrid. Like, no, right. I'm just like,
00:09:52
Speaker
You know, if like, Rader were a little bit honest with Rosie about who exactly these people are in relation to him, and like the name of the brother, his missing brother, then yes, every, and like everything could have been solved. ah In the first book. In the first book.
00:10:09
Speaker
Like at the end of the first book, right? They could still have their whole adventure. And then he rescues her from the evil, evil British captain. And then all the impediments would be gone. And they could fall in love without all the like, But then she doesn't get to go have her island phase of adventure where she makes Rader jealous with the sexy pirate. Yes. Right. And also, then they wouldn't have to like go back to England for her to figure out like, learn her secret past, which is just like so over the top. So okay, here's my we can do like, sorry, this is probably to listeners like what is even happening right now we can do a broader plot summary. But yeah,
00:10:56
Speaker
I think my primary argument here is this is a lot of like intro romance fodder. Oh, yeah. You know, where it's like, so the plot summary is Rosie, she's 17. Her mother has died. Her father owns a cantina in New Mexico somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, Campeche. It's on the northern coast of the Yucatan.
00:11:20
Speaker
And don't ask me why I know that because I did too much research about this book. Shocking no one. Of course you did. I can also tell you where Foley, England is. So Rosie and her father live and work in this bar as it gets burned down and her father is shot by radar.
00:11:45
Speaker
I mean, to be fair, he sucks, so there's that. Yeah, your dad does suck. And then she gets taken to one ship that is captained by a woman. She's kidnapped from that ship. She learns how to ship yeah on that one. That's that phase of the thing. Then she gets taken by the evil British captain.
00:12:06
Speaker
who wants to do bad things to her. so yes That's the in the brig portion of the narrative. Then she is rescued from that ship by Rader and his fearsome sidekick, where then Rader is grievously wounded. So and we have the nursing him back to health portion of the romance.
00:12:25
Speaker
Naturally, naturally. the me have our like islandlet wait ok so Then we have our island paradise portion of the romance where she's still nursing him back to health, but like on a beautiful tropical island in a giant mansion on the island where nobody lives.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah. And then there's that actually, let's go to England to find the rest of my family portion. And then the oh, the tropical island paradise person portion also has the let's introduce a love triangle and make you jealous.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yes, but also, but like kind of multiple love trucks, because there's also like Frank, who's like being friendzoned and Jean Lafitte, who's like the sexy pirate and well, and Octavia, and oav writer like what's going on with them. that's who's like maybe an evil other woman, but is also who like kind of her friend and someone she really admires to not actually evil. So in some ways, like, you know, you have these tropes that are treated a little differently than they normally are. And I appreciated that somewhat. Anyway, so then you go back to England. So you have a like the finding my roots long lost heiress portion, sorry, spoilers, they're spoilers. And then there's the marriage of convenience.
00:13:43
Speaker
Oh my god. shocks I will marry you because I've done
Conflicts and Resolutions in Relationships
00:13:49
Speaker
everything to you. I'm having an emotional meltdown because I can't deal with my actual feelings. It's like my favorite hero. ah This is where it all began.
00:13:59
Speaker
okay Yeah. Yeah, that so then we go to New Orleans and we're doing society and then there's the Battle of New Orleans. But I don't know, I only got to the Raiders mom is throwing her a party. i mean I mean, the Battle of New Orleans and the party, it's a lot of I feel like wind down for yeah, I figured tying up of loose ends at that point when when all all was revealed when all the names were revealed, I was like, Oh, yes, all that come and saw that coming. Then I figured it was all wind down. So yeah, I guess to summarize all of that, it's a very intro romance narrative. It doesn't do a lot of wild things with it tro no and now its it's really soft about them with the exception of the teen angst, which even though Rader is supposed to be like 21, he's definitely up in his feelings like a very young person.
00:14:53
Speaker
but Well, and I will say this, but the failure to communicate the near constant yearning and everybody's yearning, the like growing into growing from the sassy little you know tavern girl to a strong pirate lady, you know like these these are all like very young adult, my first romance type yeah yeah dynamics. Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker
yeah so it its Our last conversation was about Fourth Wing, which taps into some of these things in a different way. It's much more, I mean, it's much hornier.
00:15:33
Speaker
ah do Wait, fourth wing? Which one? Fourth wing is hornier. Yes. I think the thing about this one is it's yearning and it's got some of the, it's, well Holly's, it's got the pants feels, but it's in a very traditional way, which I mean, it's not surprising. It's from 1996. So yeah yeah. Yeah. So it's got the,
00:15:53
Speaker
Up until she meets Rader, Rosie has categorized all the men in her life as, was it criminals, cads, or fools? Something like that. Or something like that. And so she like starts meeting these other men who she can't quite categorize. Categorize, yeah. And it so it shifts her perspective. She also, so like her mother died and she had some stand-in parent people with the priest and like his assistant or his housekeeper whoever she was until they passed away or like one of them passed away and the other one moved away or something like that so
00:16:29
Speaker
she had some support but like it's not until she gets onto Octavia's ship who's like the evil other woman slashed my friend and somebody that I really admire. Yeah. um So there's complicated feelings about Octavia but she's not until she gets onto Octavia's ship and she meets these people who are just like genuinely kind and kind of in touch with their feelings and like like interested in answering her questions and teaching her new skills and they're
Exploring Romantic Developments
00:16:58
Speaker
supportive she kind of gets and then so you know i thought it was interesting this one guy ends up being married to octavia so he is he supports his wife as captain of this ship her and he's like there's one point where rosie's like well why don't the women on the ship do the mending he's like that's not how the ship works like
00:17:21
Speaker
they're not responsible for my mending, you know? So there's a little bit more conscious egalitarianism there than you would often see in a category romance this old. yeah ah And then yeah also, there's Tutti, who's like the healer slash mother figure, who has a really direct conversation with Rosie pretty early on about healthy romance in relationship and And then, because Rosie sees men as womenizers,
00:17:51
Speaker
Or worse. Or worse. And was like, I don't want to be around that. And Tootie's like, I totally get where you're coming from based on where you've been. But if you're looking for somebody who actually meets your needs in in all these areas, and you find a partner who also wants to meet his needs,
00:18:09
Speaker
in all these areas, you can have something really wonderful together. And that was just like a very explicit on page conversation. Yeah, I mean, and it's, and you know, and she's she like the things she says she could, you know, you can have friendship and, and laughter and and like all of these things and then like sex is kind of at the very end.
00:18:30
Speaker
You know, and she's like, and some of it is she's like, you can have all these other things. And then like, sometimes you can have like desire to and that makes it even extra special. But it's like really showing kind of a like a very normal, healthy kind of relationship except for the, you know, you must have one person to be all your things, which, but it's a romance novel. So in romance novels, you must have one person to be all your things. Yeah. Although even with that two days, like, well, I've had three husbands,
00:18:59
Speaker
I mean, she had them one at a time, but you know, like, right it's not like, oh, it's been my wedding only. and so But I thought it was interesting since we're here. Also, there is a component where it's after Rosie and Rader get married, right? And they're like, Rosie's like, why can't I sleep with Rader? And they're like, it's not fair.
00:19:19
Speaker
because the others don't get to have their partners and i'm I'm like okay but like if they're all at the cove in this house on this isolated island they also don't have anybody else to sleep with so why is it okay there ah but not on the ship but okay we're like not getting busy on the ship because it's not fair to the people who don't have their partners on the ship which totally erases, which is not surprising, but totally erases metallitage, which if you ever, if you got into our flag means death at all, you probably saw or read some articles about how like metallitage is like a legal contract between pirates on ships that was like, they were ah think effectively legally married, there wasn't necessarily a marriage marriage quote like vows and everything, but
00:20:10
Speaker
illegally binding contract, so the the idea that other people are not having sex on this ship is... you can only push the gender stuff so far.
Gender Roles and Character Responsibilities
00:20:21
Speaker
And it was very striking to me, you know, that they're having the conversation, well, like, of course, the sailors have to do their own mending. But when Raider needs nursing, who nurses him? It's Rosie Octavia and Tootie. And like, knowing that spoiler alert, Octavia is actually his sister, it makes sense. But at the time, you don't all you know is that Octavia is the captain of another ship. And it's like, why is it the only three women are doing nurse made duties?
00:20:47
Speaker
Yeah, why when one of them, especially since one of them has many other responsibilities, ostensibly, if she's not just a figurehead. Yeah, loves a raider Holly, she loves a raider. I know.
00:21:05
Speaker
So it's like, I guess it makes sense that they wouldn't want to tell a perfect stranger. Well, there's a reason though, right? for it Because the yeah, it's to protect Octavia. Yeah, so that's right. No, but like,
00:21:17
Speaker
They get to know her like they could. Yeah. And the first week later proposes. Okay, seems like a good time. and And he's like, we can get married. And she's like, what about Octavia? And he's like, Oh, well, she doesn't want to marry me. I'm like, this might be the moment. ah How about she can't legally marry me? that would even be more accurate. Yeah, or say, you don't even have to say she's my sister, you could say, well, actually, she's already married to somebody else. Like, yeah, I don't know. But Holly, then the point of this book is yearning. And that would cut off yearning. So like, it's all yearning all the time left to go after that. I know. Yeah, I know. Besides, Rader is not even in his right mind anymore. He's so up in his guilt and his
00:22:07
Speaker
pants feels. He doesn't know how to separate the two and actually think straight. So Erin, when you were reading, so before you refreshed, i will I'm going to tell you the the parts that like have stood out in my mind because there was a lot, probably decades between the original reading and then this one. It was the bracelets. Do you know what I mean? Because I was like, oh my gosh, that was the sweetest thing ever. The bracelets, the Island with the jealous pirate man and the cave. Do you remember fangirling out about the cave scene? I mean, yeah, because that's the first sexy scene. They do some kissing. Hand flapping, bouncing in your seat, excited about the cave scene is what I remember.
00:22:49
Speaker
This
Character Interactions and Emotional Development
00:22:50
Speaker
is what I love about YA romance back in the day when I could deal with it or like slow burns. It's the reward for the slow burn, right? When you finally get something substantive, although back to the cave.
00:23:08
Speaker
situationally. I didn't realize how entertained I was going to be reading it again. As a teenager, I was probably like, oh my goodness. But now now I'm like, this is kind of funny. It's like, oh, I identify what's going on here and I'm entertained by it, you know. and I don't have like the flutters, um but the entertainment kind of taps into the same enjoyment, I guess.
00:23:31
Speaker
So they're in this cave after they go to England because Rader went with Rosie to help her find her family, and then he was going to leave once she was settled taken care of. Turns out her aunt is dead, so she has no family anymore, so they're like, now what? And so they go hide in the Smuggler's cave. And so it's one of those scenes where did you think about it like this i think i've mentioned this before i don't know if i mentioned it in a podcast before where it's like i'm going to give you a sex lessons and you just like lay back and i will take care of everything let me just show you you know
00:24:10
Speaker
and so so it's so much that like they're in the smuggler's cave so there's like blankets of course because it's a smuggler's kiss so they get comfortable with the blankets he's like let me just give you kisses start taking like um they no youre not no like Like with the scene with Tutti, he verbally explains that you know when you start getting close to somebody, like first you you start you know first you get to know them and through conversation and then you get to know them through touch and then you get to know them through smell and she's like what and he's like he's like no smell me and you know and then she's like oh yeah and you know and he's like smelling her hair and everything like as you do if you're a romance hero
00:24:56
Speaker
And then he's like, and then you get to know them through taste. And she's like, what? And he, you know, like kissing her. And then he's like, yeah, so like, try it, taste me. And so she like, she like mouths his chin. That's ridiculous and hilarious. Right? But also intimate. Yeah, but so yeah they're you know, when they have this like kind of cute interchange, and then he's like, yes, but we can taste each other all over, you know, and then the buttons start coming off and we're in fake black time.
00:25:26
Speaker
until we have quit. I want to come in. So that was really funny. It's like, of course, it gets interrupted. They don't actually end up having sex until they're married. And even then it's still fade to black, right? I didn't know. Yeah, I don't recall it's like super detailed.
00:25:45
Speaker
Because she gets back to New Orleans and she's like pissed at all the ridiculous deceptions which bear because they're ridiculous. yeah And she's like, I don't even want to be married to you. And he's like, Oh, no, I guess I have to be vulnerable now.
00:26:02
Speaker
roman so So it's just, it's just all those little pieces. Yeah. four pia yeah So it yeah, I do want to say it's interesting, though, because the first book is entirely Rosie's point of view, right? And the first book is very much like Rosie gets like a journey of self discovery thing. And raider is a very classic opaque I'm gonna kiss you against your will but I'm not gonna tell you what anything means but i'll I'll still rescue you even though it makes no sense for me to do so like he's like that kind of book right but so much of it was about her learning mm-hmm and growing just by herself and it actually it really reminded me of the true confessions of Charlotte Doyle did you guys ever read that one oh yes I did read that
00:26:53
Speaker
Oh, see that's the girl on a pirate ship book that I imprinted on when I was in middle school. And it is not a romance, like at all. And it is ah
Empowerment Themes and Character Strength
00:27:05
Speaker
it's it's for it's a little younger, I think the heroine's 13. And it is ah quite grisly, but it's about a sheltered young woman who ends up on a boat on an Atlantic crossing and there's a mutiny while she's on board. I remember that. Yeah. How dramatic. Yes, it's very dramatic. And she, she, and she it it did win a Newbery. And it predates this it's from 1990. But it's like the captain is like super evil.
00:27:33
Speaker
You know, he's like Captain Lawrence, except she's like totally under cause control the whole time. um And she, like Rosie, joins the crew. And there's a scene in that book where she learns to climb the rigging. Oh, yeah. And there's also a scene where she cuts her hair. But it's not, you know, like Tootie comes and gives Rosie like a cute shag with like the tendrils on the face of everything. Right? And Charlotte Doyle is like, my hair is not staying in its braid. While I'm trying to do my work, I'm going to take my knife and cut off my hair while I'm in the rigging. Otherwise, I'm going to die. So this is like different vibes. So it was really striking to me because some scenes were very much the same. It's like, I am coming into a new space and meeting new kinds of people who are like rough men, like rough black men, even, right? And they are teaching me new things and opening up the world to me in a new kind of way, except Charlotte Doyle
00:28:32
Speaker
then just like becomes a sailor. And Rosie does not like she has the one scene where she climbs the rigging, but she never does any work aboard any of the other ships she's on ever again. Right? Oh, she's the kind of like the pet. Yeah. Or she'd be yes she she's she becomes especially on Octavia ship everybody's little sister. Yeah, yeah, she doesn't really spend enough time interacting with people.
00:28:56
Speaker
on raidership and I think a lot of the time on the voyage to England so and the first time she's on raidership that's when she's taking care of sick raider until they get to the island right but like the second time that's a long voyage probably longer than she was on Octavia's ship and it just yeah blew right through it so Yeah, I mean, yeah, and I think that that's part of what is like the first book is about her and her meeting all these people and building all these other relationships. And then in book two, we start head hopping, right? And we start seeing writers perspective also. And I feel like in book two is when it really starts tapping into romance vibes, like I could see it where um Gene Farris wrote book one, and then was like, I'm gonna I want to make this more romance, you know,
00:29:43
Speaker
and started punching it up. Yeah, this is the only one in the American Dream series that is a three book series. The actual series is more like the like Sunfire romances, I think where it's like very YA and the, you know, heroines, whatever their situation is, like have to figure out what they're going to grow into. And their romantic choices stem from that.
00:30:07
Speaker
you know, in a sort of more women's fiction slash YA mold. So this is the only one that does that. The second book is actually my favorite. Like I like the first in terms of it's, it's very charming. There's a lot of charm with her finding herself and finding people who care about her after having her father be like So selfish. But yeah, the real romancy stuff is in the second book. And then the even the third book, you know, like it, I can't not read the third book, because it ties it all together. And it's like, you know, there's a cliffhanger, basically, the end of the second book. And I guess there's a cliffhanger at the end of the first book. So you need but there's not as much of emotional interest really going on in the third book.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's tying it up. And the second book is when you have sick bed, just like classic romance, pining, like pull us together kind of scene, especially in historical, I want to say. And, you know, and then we have the I don't understand my feelings, but I'm gonna make this guy jealous. Like, well, dynamic.
00:31:12
Speaker
And I think that part of that is that when you have a book where there's a lack of communication to the point of being almost deliberately obtuse, like you're going to have to fabricate some excuses for building vulnerability. So like you kind of have to have the sick bed scene because they're not going to talk about it. You know what I mean? And so like otherwise, how do you get that vulnerability in there? And like the jealousy, same thing. It's like you're building intimacy without ever having any kind of direct hint or conversation about it. It's it's got to be like really sneakies. Yeah, well, and also, I will say in the second book, which is Song of the Sea, the scene where he takes her onto the beach at night, so she can hear the Song of the Sea is like, that is so romantic, right? That is just like, I mean, I was so irritated with with with like all their nonsense. But like that scene,
00:32:00
Speaker
where he's like, Oh, you can't sleep either. Like listen to you hear it. Like you can hear the stars singing and like all this stuff. And they go down and they're in the water. And it's just like, this is like, this is what every teenage girl wants. Right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, and And it's one kiss and then she runs back inside and like that's that's it. Yeah. Well, see, I was middle school, so for me that was like, gosh. That was like yeah so thrilling. And I thought by the time the cave scene happened, I thought i was like worried for people to see the books because I was like, oh my gosh, it's so racy. And now here I am. If Smut Report Ingrid could talk to 8th grade Ingrid.
00:32:46
Speaker
Guess what you're gonna be reading and reviewing publicly.
00:32:52
Speaker
I would have been so impressed with myself. Anyhow. Yeah, I think the nostalgia factor is big. I probably would have gotten super frustrated with their YA nonsense, as Holly said. you know If I had read it for the first time now, I don't know. Maybe I would have found it so a little bit charming, but I think there's a big nostalgia factor there for me. and As we know, I do not have a great deal of patience for the YA ridiculousities.
00:33:18
Speaker
ah I know. I just think it's so funny, Erin, because for the first one that got us hooked, this one has like so many layers of all the frustrations you hate the most. It's so funny looking back now. But
Narrative Themes and Audience Impact
00:33:28
Speaker
it's funny because there's different ways to look at the success of this book, right? So it's like, would you like it if you reread it for the first time now? Maybe not. But would you recommend it to a kid now? Maybe, maybe not. Because like, you know, some of the scenes like we were talking about, about that there were, you know, these really nice, frank conversations with Tutti and stuff, like I remember really liking that stuff.
00:33:48
Speaker
But like you said, that she's not super involved in the functioning of the ship and the piracy, she just kind of sits there being adorable. Like, you know, that is a little bit more boring than some books I've read lately for young adults, you know, but um yeah, so it's hard for me to say because I cant have a hard time pulling myself out of that nostalgia to be kind of impartial here. Yeah.
00:34:07
Speaker
Well, yeah, what do you think Holly? I guess having I don't know. I mean, like, I don't know. I wouldn't recommend it to an adult no who's reading it for the first time now. I was like, you know, like I don't know. Unless you are an adult who loves yearning young adult books. Right. There are adults who like this, who really likes YA and we read books like she's always like, have you read this one? Like, do not tell you how much I do not want to read YA books. Yeah. Right. But she loves them.
00:34:37
Speaker
Yeah, but this felt, I don't know, this felt like a lot gentler than those books. But it's the imprint too, I think. Right. That's true. I mean, yeah, so I don't know. I don't know if I would. I mean, I guess it's nice to have like options with gentle books and gentle romance, but it's like, it's very gentle, but also she gets kidnapped and thrown into the brig. And like, yeah she has to deal with a lot of loss.
00:35:01
Speaker
She has to deal with a lot of laws. She gets over her father getting shot in front of her pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Very quickly. Even if she didn't like him. Yeah, um it was ah the one thing for me was like, I feel like if this book were written today, there is no way Rosie as a heroine who is so sheltered in the way she sees the world could have come out in her circumstances, right? Like that was so striking to me is like, there's no way a 17 year old who has been single handedly running a cantina since she was 12. Like there's no way she wouldn't have had a had a deeply traumatic sexual assault in her background, basically.
00:35:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, I feel like I might have even felt like that when I was reading it back in 1999 or whatever, you know, like as a teen, that a lot of stuff goes really right for her. Like, she's like, no, Captain Lawrence, I won't put on the fancy dress and have sex with you. Like, why does he care?
00:36:00
Speaker
If she puts on the fancy dress, why doesn't he just overpower her and like take what he wants? He throws her in the brig instead. like And then oh only to later be like, okay, I'm done waiting for you and now you're going to do the thing. so i think it's a Well, it's the safe space. I think there's a little bit of writing of the universe in this narrative. right like She's not having to deal with that trauma and she's getting all of the best parts of Octavia's ship and the nurturing that she never heard had and even the more dangerous things that she does like she's very safe in the doing like going to that pirate island enclave with and the guys and then various things that she has to deal with in England and then the cave with the smugglers when the smugglers come in and all this things where it's like it all just goes so well
00:36:48
Speaker
yeah but yeah like yeah i mean yeah I think part of why its it stood out to me is like the reason Rader shoots her dad right is because there's some guy in the bar who's trying to assault her and he intervenes and a fight breaks out and his shot goes wild and hits her father.
00:37:09
Speaker
And like, come on, you've been doing this for five years. And this is the first time that this has happened because like her dad certainly isn't intervening. And I think that's what was so, you know, but then one ah one of the nice things that the men on the ship teacher is how to hit a man where it counts. I'm like, I'm, I'm pretty sure the horse that you show for would have already taught you that. Right? Yeah. She just comes so perfectly innocent and pure. Yeah. When it just doesn't make sense.
00:37:39
Speaker
Yeah, with the background. But I mean, yeah, it's I don't know. But the way that they feel like it's written is kind of that like, people see it and they kind of just like naturally want to preserve it. Like it seems like everyone, she every time she stumbles into something, that's kind of the gist is that like, there are always these good people who just want to protect her, you know what I mean? So like, I can kind of get the willing suspension of disbelief there. And honestly, like it didn't even occur to me as an adult, obviously, I'm like, well, that doesn't track like, yeah,
00:38:06
Speaker
ah But as a young person, I was like, of course she'd be fine. She's a plucky heroine. You know, like it just never, it would never have occurred to me that there would be any other outcome. yeah And I think like back then in the, you know, whenever the early 2000s, sorry guys were old, you know, back then, heroines were pure, like bad things didn't happen to good girls. So that is one of the, you know,
00:38:34
Speaker
yeah things we've kind of come to terms with as a society is that that's not a fair label to put on people, women. So anyway, I think that is a sign of the times of when the book was written, perhaps more than anything else, that the heroine had to be so pure and untouched and all that stuff by that stuff. Both of your points both of your points are definitely definitely reasonable. Yeah.
00:38:59
Speaker
On pastry reads, I've just done it to enjoy it. On this tree read, I was like, oh, no. What am I going to read that I didn't want to think about? But I was actually kind of pleasantly surprised by, like, we've said these very frank conversations. And even at the very beginning of the first scene, actually, Rosie is, she makes additional money by sewing for the local brothel. And you know, there's a point where she seeks to differentiate herself from, quote, those women.
00:39:29
Speaker
ah when she meets Rader and then she immediately feels bad about it because they've always been kind to her and they're responsible and all this other stuff so I mean even that like these frank conversations sort of nurturing Rosie's understanding of the value of people not based on their upbringing or social position is like on their kindness. Yeah,
Romantic Themes and Societal Perceptions
00:39:55
Speaker
right. Yeah. um And so that's all great. I think some of the elements here are the same as some of the elements that I would say proceed with caution and a lot of romance novels because it boils down to a bigger conversation about what is romantic
00:40:11
Speaker
And what is appropriate in a loving relationship? Like most of Rader's behavior is he's not being a good partner. Most of the time he's not even trying to be a partner at all. But there's a lot of hot and colds. There's a lot not communicating. Like a lot of this is like, this is not good. And Rosie calls him out on it after they're already married. Okay, but you know, this is that is not unique to this.
00:40:35
Speaker
now story No, no, this is I mean, this is I think what I feel like this is ah what something that boils down to a lot of the romance we read and we talk about maybe not on the podcast, but with each other where it's like, well, there are these romances that are about healthy relationships, and they're boring. Or there's romances that are about mafia guys ah being awful that we know are just not the way a real life relationship would go. And we're but it they're like, so enthralling to read. Right? Right. yeah Right. And I think as an adult, I mean, there's still the conversation like, ah I know, we all pass around periodically, little things from Instagram from romantically inclined, which I can link to in the
00:41:26
Speaker
show notes, but one of her things is like, you guys understand that I know that I'm reading fiction, right? Like, I understand that, like, whatever. it's And she's pretty entertaining about it. i The key, I think, in the YA sphere are same with, I mean, I've had conversations with my book club friends,
00:41:47
Speaker
about stuff that I would recommend to my own children, and I don't often recommend old publications to them because I'm not necessarily going to go back and read them and make sure that they're not chock-a-block full of wraith. I mean, I'm assuming that a bunch of others are going to be like homophobia or just a lack of you know diversity or uh, misogynism or so but like, over racism, you know, like, there's, there's some stuff in some of those older publications, it's just like, anti-Semitism, it's like, just in there. And everybody's like, Oh, these old books, I'm like, no.
00:42:27
Speaker
And so that's the conversation when you're dealing with kids. And I think that good this ties back into the book band thing. Like they can read whatever they want. We have to have separate conversations about what is healthy and appropriate and what we're expecting from our relationships with other people, right? Like just relying on them only reading a certain kind of book is not effective. that's the thing is that But the conversation is necessary.
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and my kids are always joking about how they call it my teacher voice. So we'll see something or we'll read something and I'm like, Hey, did you notice this thing that just happened? And they'll be like, Oh, mom. But it's funny, we watched this one movie and it was a great movie. Spoiler alert, it was a Phineas and Fur movie. And I actually liked that show for a lot of reasons. But for being an older kids show, it has some really healthy relationship dynamics and like they play with some stuff in a really, I think, cool way.
00:43:22
Speaker
But I was putting my daughter to bed that night and she was like, you know what? My favorite part was mom and I was like what and she goes the girls did all the fun stuff like all the hard stuff So like in the movie they go to an alternate universe and then the show it's mostly the boys doing stuff and there are girls in it but they're not the ones who are like the plot drivers and I think about that a lot with these books because like we brought it up with this where what's she doing and in modern books I love that a lot of the YA that we're reading right now involves the young woman being so much stronger much more and involved in her future like in her choices and stuff and you know having just read fourth wing when we look at this one in comparison it's you know she doesn't do as much she kind of floats along and gets passed around and it's cute and it's romantic and stuff but
00:44:05
Speaker
She's not the driver of her own life. You know, she's not really making choices for herself. She kind of ah yeah she keeps it and then she's like, I guess I'm here now. You know what I mean? Like I'm on a ship in the ocean, so I can't go anywhere. But even when we even like, you know, when she's making choices, it just doesn't. She's kind of like going with the the best.
00:44:23
Speaker
of the choices that she has like she doesn't she's not going and chasing a dream or anything and so I do feel really good about you know while I really these were very nostalgic for me if if my daughter were like interested in reading books like this I could think of a lot of other ones that I think honestly I would be more happy about her reading because I think they would be more like you're a human being deserving of adventure and fun and making your own mistakes and being a mess and I don't see quite the same dynamic in these books now as an adult But you can pry them out of my cold dead hands. These are my special little books. Yeah, I agree with that. um So it's like everything doesn't have to be a lesson. right It has gotten to the point where
00:45:02
Speaker
Like, how long are you gonna talk about this? Because I feel like we're in lecture mode and I'm already bored. Yeah, mine hated it. They're like, I'm done with this. Stop talking. Okay, fine. Everything doesn't have to be a lesson. But yeah, and in that sense, this book is very entertaining while also yeah throwing the lessons in pretty effectively. Pretty effectively. I think also, it just taps into some different stuff. Like there are, I was so romancy as like,
00:45:24
Speaker
it you know, it's like I had crushes in elementary school and I, my first boyfriend, there's a picture of me kissing him, we were both like five, my first quote boyfriend. But I have that very Robiancy desire just innately and not all the kids that I interact with now, and now that I'm an adult and I can kind of observe instead of being in the middle of it, like they don't all do that. so like different kids are looking for different things there's some there's one kid that's she's a girl i don't want any romance i don't like it at all i want fantasy adventures and then you know another kid is like hard eyes like i was so
00:46:09
Speaker
But allowing for those different desires in our pleasure reading is also a benefit. I mean, it's funny though, it's just one of those things I think it's good just to kind of like step back and not try to control so much about some of this stuff. Like I think we get so stuck on needing things to be like perfect that then you get kind of hung up on the things that are missing from books like this. but You know, it's a young adult book. Young adults are yearny. And guess what? Young adults are also hot messes who don't talk. And that's why I kind of, young adult books, it's like the more mess, the more I'm kind of like, eh, tricks, you know? Yeah. Even I have to say admit, like, I don't love, like, in fourth wing when I feel like the guy, like, falls in love and then he, it's like he has a brain transplant. And I'm like, where is this brooding, scary guy that was here for three quarters of the book and now you're like a giant mushpot?
00:46:56
Speaker
Like, to be fair, that kind of tracks too. I feel like when guys finally get in a relationship, they're kind of, or girls too, like when you've been like been waiting and waiting to have a relationship, but then you get in one, it's like a personality transplant and you're like, who are you even? Like, do you have any interests outside of this person that you're now obsessed with? No? Okay, that tracks.
00:47:15
Speaker
the tracks you're 17 18 fine yeah you know so anyhow yeah so anyway rally don't miss high school don't miss no i'm good that whole time everyone has all excited to go back to their high school school reunions and like you have so much fun with that i work i'm good i'll hard pass on that yeah Holly, do you think you're gonna finish it? Are you gonna finish the book? I mean, I only have 50 pages left. Like, why not be a completionist? Here's a spoiler. There's not a super racy. That's okay. i I wouldn't expect there to be. Also, I feel like I have to read the whole thing to figure out when I can gift it to my niece. Yeah. I mean, m a lot of our my first smart readers and then sometimes you'll also see just the various articles.
00:47:59
Speaker
I have a lot of people saying, Oh, I read my first adult romance at 11. Oh, I found my mom's Harlequins at 11. You know, and like like, I mean, we were a little like, let me tell you how old I was when I read the Miss of Avalon. It was not old enough for the for what happened in that book. I mean, there's not a lot of pearl clutching about other genres. But there are like, I read some Jack Reacher books back in the day. And like, they've got on page sex. One of the fantasy books kind of my
00:48:38
Speaker
the first epic fantasy adventure has the very typical sexual violence in it like significant sexual violence. Yeah, and I mean, which is like very typical of high fantasy. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was 10 years old when I read East of Eden, which also like full of sexual violence and, and a character tries to give herself an abortion on page. Wow. Yeah. I mean, but let's be real here. It's because it's because it's because it's young women who are reading them. Yeah. For girls to have an interest in sex or to like read about it and to be knowledgeable about it. Well, we can't have that. So that's the it is a holdover from that. And it's ridiculous. Now,
Book Recommendations and Future Content
00:49:20
Speaker
I do think, of course, we are going to be exposed to things that are above our age limit at various points. It's just part of growing up. I mean, I feel like that's just the way it is. I don't remember when I read the Bluest Eye, but I was definitely not in high school.
00:49:31
Speaker
And that one's gnarly. But um I just think it's a conversation point. If your kids can talk to you, then they can read it, you know, or like, yeah but whatever. The point is like, you know, your kid just if they're interested in reading it, then okay, fine, but just talk about it afterwards. I don't see but what the problem is. But you know, like these books, there's nothing like super explicit, but I just feel like this is a post puberty type book, in my opinion, like this, because I feel like it, you know, it has a some suggestive areas in it, but I'm also a lot more... Yeah. I mean, because it's it's my niece, not my child, I have two boys and much as I would love to break down the gender, all the gender stuff, like what my older son is in the other room and he heard I was talking about romance and he's just like, romance.
00:50:14
Speaker
ah um And my niece is more interested. So really, I just have to talk to my sister. Yeah, somebody else too. like what what are you When are you comfortable with me starting to give her books? Because let's do this. I'm ready when she is and when Lordy.
00:50:34
Speaker
closest ah The closest familial romance recommendations I've made, I made i made a couple recommendations to my niece-in-law. But she's a full grown adult though, like pays her own rent and all that stuff. If grandma asked, I think I would be like, excuse me.
00:50:53
Speaker
so Did you, were you there when everybody lost their minds because I gave Grandma the books that I wrote? Yes, but you flagged them. I was like, she asked me for them multiple times. No, it's so funny. So we're at Thanksgiving. Erin's got these books that she's written and she's flagged them green for go and red for stop. So Grandma wouldn't know when to stop reading the sex scenes and when to start, right? So everyone's giggling like, oh, that's so thoughtful, Erin.
00:51:19
Speaker
Looks up and she goes well, I have four kids. I think I know what's going on and she just and everyone just like because Like our grandma is like the purist late like I like I don't even know it's like Julie Andrews guys like she's just except like Midwest grandma edition. Yeah, like she's yeah, she always knows the proper thing to do and like when she said that I was like Grandma but so But to be fair, like she's an adult and she asked for them. Yeah. On that note, shall we should we yeah wrap things up a little bit? Yeah. Do we have any recommendations based on this? like where Where do we go from here? Oh, like if you liked this, where do we go from here? Well, okay. So we're working on a Saturday, Smutty 6 of I'm on a boat. So if you like the boat energy. I'm on a boat.
00:52:06
Speaker
I hope maybe we'll have that done. So that's our goal. Yeah, i mean this one. So if you went from this and you wanted something very similar to this but that had ah not fade to black, I feel like that one that I read called dang it. I wish I had a memory. They're both pirates, but she he thinks she's a he the whole time. Is it enjoying the joy book? No, what is it? Did you review it? Yes, I reviewed it. Hold on. I'll put I'll put it up. Anyway, the point is, is it's it has a similar vibe because like they're tight with each other's crew. So it's like smuggling crews. So it's got that pirate feeling where they're both involved on the ship where it's not like she has nothing to do with piracy. They're both on the ship. You know what I mean? Only it's smuggling crews. So yeah they both have their own smuggling crews and they're like, you know, and then he like finds himself mysteriously attracted to a young man and he doesn't know what to do with these feelings kind of thing.
00:53:01
Speaker
any classic classic classic roman I right air love that. Like, I feel like there's a lot of different directions. you think It's like, is this a lead into Mariana Zapata? Right? Oh, yeah. The yearning. You know, is or is this a lead into our flag means black fanfic? Like,
00:53:20
Speaker
but like i mean just it could go anywhere it's delightful I completely agree, though. I could see the yearning thing going for that. Or ah who's the other one that does? You mean Lucy score? Yeah, the things we never got over. Yeah, Lucy score. Lucy score. So she's got some yearning like that. Yeah, because she does yearning, slow burning stuff. But with, you know, heat, it it doesn't stay that way. So I was thinking going ah Julie Garwood.
00:53:48
Speaker
Oh, yeah, Jungkwan would be a classic for this. Absolutely. Oh, especially with the hero, Erin. That's a good good one. Yeah, we like the bride, of course. But I think one of the ones that's going to be on our on a boat. Yeah, the gift gift. And it's, I mean, I went and reread my review of that because it's so delightful. And it's so funny. But the relationship is just like,
00:54:12
Speaker
like not just a scarf of red flags. It's like a whole bedspread of red flags. But it doesn't even matter because he's a big scary pirate and she's not afraid of him. And she gets to be she also becomes the pet of the boat. But mainly because every time she tries to help she destroys things. So it's a different kind of vibe. I feel like yes, slow burn, yearning vibes, opaque, emotionally constipated hero. It's like our big Yeah, there's a lot of that. That's where we're going for. So yeah, historical romance. and If you just want to go with authors, go back to your Julia Quinn's and your Eloisa James's and your Lisa Clampis's and your Mary Balow. Mary Balow. Oh, gosh, to the max, Julie Garwood, but only the historicals. Yes, only the historicals. Joanna Lindsay is like,
00:55:06
Speaker
but also kind of. Yeah, and she she has a lot of pirate books. Yeah, maybe if you want to go a little softer, Grace Burroughs is pretty soft. and She is extremely prolific. And then Marianna Zapata, I don't know, maybe like a from Luke up with love because it's not 10 million pages long and has some good celebrity elements. So yeah, that covers it, right? That's like, that's pretty Well, that I mean, you're just describing your own romance reading journey. I know. It's like, do you want my book list? It's like we start and then you start with the YA's published in 1996. And then you go into the historical romance published before 2005. Captain Jack's Woman. God dang it. Oh, is that Stephanie Lawrence? Yes. ah Oh my god, Stephanie Lawrence.
00:55:54
Speaker
ah God, I was going to drive you nuts. That's like good domineering hero, but the women do stuff. Yeah. It's true. It's true. There's a lot of like, I don't understand how his butt looks that good in those breaches. And then it's got a dump truck. Anyway. ah Yeah, there' it's not perfect, but it'll get you started. So okay, romance is fun. You can do that. ah What are we doing next, friends?
00:56:22
Speaker
So yeah, maybe cutesy witch romances, but maybe it won't come out till October. In the meantime, you can find our show notes and we'll try to put a recommendation list together, even if we couldn't, we didn't really successfully talk about one. And that will be at smutreport dot.com slash podcast. If you enjoy our content, please like and rate us on Apple or Spotify. And in the meantime, keep it smutty, folks. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, smut report.