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Cutesy Witch Romance
73 Plays29 days ago
The Smut Report is getting festive with an in-depth discussion of those cute, small town, witchy rom-coms.
Full show notes available at smutreport.com/podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Halloween-themed Romances
00:00:00
Speaker
deep dive smut nerdery. That's what we're doing. Yay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Smut Report. Hi, and welcome back to the Smut Report podcast. I'm Holly. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Erin.
00:00:17
Speaker
And it's October, which means obviously we had to talk about some kind of Halloweeny romances. So we're going to be talking about cutesy small town witch romances. And listeners might be like, wow, guys, that's a very small niche, dedicated sub genre. And ah listeners, you would be correct.
00:00:41
Speaker
Um, so
Critiquing Small Town Witch Romances
00:00:42
Speaker
this conversation was inspired by an article by Jenny Hamilton on reactor back when it was Tor.com. And this article is from last year. It was published in August, 2023.
00:00:58
Speaker
It's called how to uphold the status quo, the problem with small town witch romances. um And I, you know, read it when it came out and kind of shared it on our, you know, monthly, here, here are some interesting articles I read thing that I do. And Aaron was like, huh, that's interesting. We should talk about that. So A year later, we're finally talking about it. But basically, in this article, Hamilton argues that these witch romances are yeah doing kind of girlboss feminism, but they do this weird thing with persecution.
00:01:40
Speaker
and that they're all very white, but set witches up as a persecuted class. And because witches are a persecuted class in the logic of these books, it is therefore okay to do ah really gross magic, if you actually think about it, on non-magical peoples. Like, I don't, I don't know, what are some examples? Like, well i remember oblivion spells.
00:02:06
Speaker
yeah yeah i but Yeah, I was when I read the first book in Anna Guire's witchy series, which please, their relationship had stuff that just completely squicked me out. um But then at the end, you learn and this is also discussed in the article Holly is referring to in the end, you learn that her mother hexed this guy so that her daughter would never be cheated on like she was cheated on. So he is a virgin who is only capable of having sex with her with the hairpin. What? Yeah, excuse me. Yeah. So like, he's been hexed since childhood, because he's her fated mate or something. Yeah, that's gross. area ah Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that was her mother. But like, yeah, beyond that, there was some stuff that was happening in like their relationship because of the way she had to keep secrets and because of the way she was in a oppressed, you know, class. And so she was also engaging in some stuff. And I was just like, this is
00:03:06
Speaker
This is squicky. And, you know, even without some of the a depth of consideration that the article goes into with respect to like race and other oppressed classes. so but you add that on top, of it was anyway. but So I was like, yes, let's discuss. Yeah.
Romantic Themes in Witch Stories
00:03:21
Speaker
So anyway, we all read or parts of ah several witchy romances. And so we want to talk about them a little bit and dig into them and maybe expand a little bit on what Hamilton talks about to really dig into what these books are doing, what kind of ah stories they're telling, all that fun stuff. So
00:03:42
Speaker
I think we should start by kind of defining what exactly we mean by cute witchy romance. Yes, because when I started looking back through my books, I was like, aren't they kind of all that way? And then I realized, no, no, some of them are very dark indeed. yeahy Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:00
Speaker
Well, and I feel like there's a different sub genre of more like high fantasy witch romances, right? Where it's not about the cute small town in America or England. I don't know if the England ones even count for this. I read when I started I haven't finished an England one and I do want to discuss some differences, but there are also a lot of overlaps.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Right. But there are some where it's like a land of magic in the witch lives in the forest kind of thing. And I think right, right. And those are kind of something different and tend to maybe have more very fairy fairy stuff. I don't know. And I feel like you've read several of these, right? Yeah. So it's funny because it seems like in some of the more like fairy based ones or the darker ones, right? The witches are kind of evil tricksters. You know what I mean? Like they are the villains tend to be, or you're supposed to think of them that way. I guess like they're more, they're darker for sure. And then in these books, it's, it's very much like a TJ Max Halloween type of cutesy. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And also I think there's a difference in historical as well, because I feel like there's a little bit less of that teeny bopper.
00:05:14
Speaker
I trip on everything and I'm so cute and funny type of dynamic. It's a bit more real cute. I mean, just thinking back to stuff that I read ages and ages ago, there's like the mystical woman who's close to the earth, right, right in a historical romance, but she's not, it's it's a completely different vibe, yeah.
00:05:32
Speaker
Right. This is a very uniquely specific tiny little niche. Yes. Okay. So ah characteristics of this tiny little niche, I think one is there's a witch community. Correct. And girl squad it's a girl squad. Right. So like solitary, like healer woman in touch with the earth, like witch living in the land of fairy, like these are all solitary witches and they have a different kind of vibe. And, and these books, as Ingrid said, are girl squad.
00:05:59
Speaker
you know, girl boss, it's girl boss feminism, right? Correct. And they're contemporary, they're usually set in the US, but we can talk about the US versus England thing. I don't think any of us have found
Rom-Com Elements in Witch Romances
00:06:11
Speaker
any that are not that are set in any other places besides the land of magic. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's yeah, definitely. Yeah. And they're contemporary. And you can tell what you're getting because it has a pun in the title on either the word which spell hex. Yeah.
00:06:30
Speaker
Right? And yet maybe curse. Yeah, I read from bad to curse. That was absolutely. Yeah, which you're gonna do. and Like bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do? What you gonna do when they come for you? That one was my favorite because it also the small town. It's by Avery Flynn and it looks like the series title is Witchington. Anyway, but you get the idea. I like to think of it kind of as like Gilmore Girls meets Hocus Pocus kind of. You're right on the Gilmore Girls. Maybe not Hocus Pocus though.
00:07:08
Speaker
it like like The Hocus Pocus though, I mean that like, it's the comedy. It's like the knee jerk. It's the characterization of it. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, but even in Hocus Pocus, if you took Hocus Pocus and infused it with Gilmore Girls coffee and levity, right? Like technically in Hocus Pocus, you've got three sisters who are like super tight, bonded for life, funny. You know what I mean? Like bumbling around. Yeah, except they're trying to like eat children.
00:07:36
Speaker
Okay, right but that's why you have to combine it with Gilmore Girl. Okay, so instead of eating children, they discover coffee. Yeah. And really, she just wants her undead boyfriend to love her again. There you go. Thank you for picking up what I'm putting down. Yes. yeah Obviously, it's not hocus pocus. You have to add the Gilmore Girls or it does not work.
00:07:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I think Ira and Holly are just like touching on it just to maybe define it more clearly. These are, they're rom-coms and I don't think they're particularly, I haven't been particularly amused, but way back, I don't know, a few months ago Holly sent a text of somebody was commenting on how a romantic comedy functions, like there are three components of a rom-com, right? It's by, Holly, help me, by line, by idea, and then like by, it's like the overall scenario. Right. Okay. So like there's like line, which is banter. There's like scene, which is like physical comedy, right? And that's in the middle. And then there's idea, which is like if the whole thing is be the overarching theme. Yeah. Yes. Thank you, Holly.
00:08:49
Speaker
So I'll have to find that again. I have no idea where that came from. So one of the books I read that is like top of most of these lists was the XX by Erin Sterling that was full of banter. There were situational comedies like Little Plastic Skulls populating in a witchy shop when the curse went out of control. And then the overall theme was very light hearted. I mean, it was like we have to save the town, but it wasn't thematically heavy or dense in any way. And so even though I didn't find it humorous at all, or particularly fun to read, sorry.
00:09:28
Speaker
for anybody who liked it, but this is not my jam. I can't deny that it does meet the criteria for a rom-com in that context, and I think that's a key component. These are kind of lighthearted or they're meant to be lighthearted. I mean, even the one that I read first,
Cultural Influences on Witch Romances
00:09:47
Speaker
Witch, Please, was also supposed to be lighthearted and funny.
00:09:51
Speaker
And yeah, then we got the small town and the so it's isolation and you can make a cute world building situation happen and you've got your girl boss team. So you have the series built in like it's very intentional. But as I was going through my list of books that I had tagged as like witch books or have a witch in them,
00:10:12
Speaker
I noticed that it's not just that this is a lighthearted, low fantasy situation. It is a very, very specific niche. And so I think the question exists also how much of this is a quote, a thing and how much of it is just like a few popular stories that were published in the past two to three years that when we look at the greater world of like low fantasy, you know, it's barely a drop in the bucket. I don't know. Well, I think that, I mean, to be fair, I don't know how much you guys soak up on the TikTok slash Instagram reels world, but there is kind of like our, our generation is definitely kind of enamored. I think there's like a ah weird thing happening with like our age women in Halloween right now. There's like the boo baskets. Have you heard of those? No, what's a boo basket?
00:11:07
Speaker
your significant other is supposed to make you a surprise basket with like fall Halloween goodies with like chocolate and slippers and like cozy things and stuff like that. Like because you're his boo? Because you're his boo.
00:11:22
Speaker
um i at the in It's like a thing and like I didn't think it was happening and then I what was I I was shopping for something I don't remember what but no I was online and one of the comments under it was like oh this would be perfect for my boo basket this year and I was like is this really a thing that we're doing like culturally we're like doing boo baskets but we grew up with like I mean we had like the practical magic and we had the hocus pocus and I think that's kind of like making a comeback and it's, you know, I see it being kind of a thing. So I understand why I'm seeing more of them along this line. They're funny. They're like, yeah, Halloween. Yeah. in town
Feminist Themes and Powerful Women
00:12:01
Speaker
Small town and like, well, one of the series, the supernatural singles series by April Asher, I read part of the second one.
00:12:09
Speaker
And I like couldn't deal with it. This is the author that didn't know what a masochist was. And I was just like, I can't, I can't, I can't even. ah But that takes place in Long Island. So like okay they're like in and out of the city, so it doesn't quite have the same small town vibes. And witches also aren't secret in that, but it has a lot of the other girl boss stuff. But that was more like Sex and the City meets Hocus Pocus.
00:12:33
Speaker
but Right? And you're talking about like all of these cultural touchstones from when we were in high school and college. Well, Hocus Pocus would be even elementary school. Right. and But I think like Hocus Pocus, Sex and the City, Gilmore Girls, right? Like all of this stuff kind of coming together. And then there's also, I sent this very dense article out to the group chat before I read it. And I was like, sorry, fam. I'll link it in the show notes. But about that was about kind of a history of witchcraft and feminist reclaimings of witchcraft. And I think that's part of it also, that witches are these powerful female figures. And we're all we're in this moment where there's kind of a backlash to feminism, right? There's like this tradwife stuff going on and all kinds of political backlash to feminism, but also women are like,
00:13:28
Speaker
stepping up more and more. So I feel like witches are also in this moment of like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna like reclaim this yeah kind of powerful woman figure as a feminist icon. And I think that also ties into this. It's easier to write a girl boss, maybe not easier. It's it's a way into write this like girl boss hero in a small town if she has magic powers and isn't just like a barista.
00:13:54
Speaker
or trying to run her failing cupcakeery or whatever, you know? If it's a magical cupcakeery, then... Yeah. Is that one of the ones you read, Holly? No, I made that up, but I could see it happen. It tracks though. Yeah, absolutely. I realized while reading the XX that a lot of the feminist ideas or attributes that the heroine has, or
00:14:25
Speaker
present, and Ingrid has discussed them in some verticals, in contemporary romance, right, where so the, so in the XX, the hero, who's actually also a witch, but it's a secret society still, and they have, he was, he's Welsh and was sent back to this town that his family established to you know redo the magic for another 10 years or whatever and it gets all messed up because he's actually cursed and so you know she's gonna rescue the situation we're not sure how but because of that you know there are all these moments where something happens and they have to deal with it and
00:15:06
Speaker
She's also the fantasy heroine. She doesn't not know that she has power, which is a very standard fantasy heroine archetype or creation, but she learned that she had magic. Is she holding the chosen one? is that Yeah, here ah basically. But she yeah but she is she learned that she had magic late in life because her mom like left the magical world because she was scared of her power. ah so and then she When she moved in with her aunt and cousin, she learned her heritage and can do things, but she has chosen not to.
00:15:44
Speaker
um so instead of teaching at the witch college she teaches like regular normie history kind of a thing so she's like not tapping into her power so of course when it comes to the point you know she still has the stupendous power and he sorry this was a very long-winded way of getting to he looks at what she does and was like oh man look at that to borrow a phrase from holly back when look at that big beautiful brain She is so hot doing that hot magic and solving all these problems, you know? And that is a very standard energy for contemporary romance, or really any romance right now, I think, but definitely contemporary. But also contemporary romance is such an enormous field that if you can tap into a natural storyline that gives you a conflict,
00:16:32
Speaker
without having to manufacture something, like you kind of sometimes have to do with the contemporary romance, that just makes the narrative easier. Yeah. Oh,
Diversity and Inclusivity in Witch Narratives
00:16:41
Speaker
and the conflict is, oops, I cursed you. Oops, I cursed the town. Yeah. Oops, my family cursed your family. Right. Something like that. ah Oops, there's a magical problem that we have to solve. Yeah, that sounds familiar.
00:16:56
Speaker
oops, I tried to steal some horses from your animal sanctuary. ah wait what yeah
00:17:04
Speaker
that That's the the April Asher book, but that but also he's a demon. So like, that one has like a whole big supernatural world. and So but then did you feel like that vibes the same and is included because I I kind of divided my readings into this low fantasy narrative with witches and maybe not like there are witches but not vampires and werewolves and other supernatural creatures versus like there are the ones where there's all the things, right? Just like there are paranormals where there are no witches but there are, you know, shifters. Like there's shifters and vampires maybe but right but not witches.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I just felt like there was a different vibe between the everybody knows versus it's a secret.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, so the um the Everybody Knows book I read, it kind of felt like True Blood more. and I guess in True Blood, it's different because vampires are kind of oppressed. But like in this one, they're like in the last 20 years, there was like the great opening where they came out into the world. And now normies know about them and know that they're interacting. And there's like a there's like an umbrella organization with representatives from the different supernatural classes that kind of rules rules over them.
00:18:29
Speaker
um and And I started the second one in the series, and I only read the first quarter of it. So I like did not get a handle on the full world building. But I would say that one did feel very similar to these other books in the way that the which characters interacted with each other. And the way they talked about like normies, the way they talked about normies, even if they weren't keeping themselves secret, they were still keeping themselves separate.
00:18:59
Speaker
Interesting. So that one did feel similar. Ingrid, you read one with a werewolf too, right? Yeah. So her secret wolf, I think was like, it sort of fit, but it was, I put it on the list because after I read that article that you had sent,
00:19:15
Speaker
um I thought it was really interesting because this book is contemporary, right? And it is small town. And it is ah the main character is a witch, but she's very low power and she inherits the very important position in the community. And she ends up there enemies with the werewolves and a wounded werewolf ends up in her yard and she ends up saving him. The whole thing is very interesting because right when we were going over this, I remembered that there was this weird dynamic that I couldn't quite put my finger on when I was reading it, and it was the othering. So in the coven, her coven, they're upset with her because she's low power and has inherited this position that they don't think she deserves.
00:19:55
Speaker
and that the safety of their coven depends on them being very powerful. So they end up being like, Are you powerful or are you not powerful? So there's that within and then there's also the external right like the werewolves and the witches being against each other. Yeah. Do you remember how they interact with non supernatural? I I really can't because I feel like if I recall correctly, the community isn't all magic because I remember them having to like that when they're having these battles, they're having to like hide the battles from like the normal people, I guess, or whatever. Okay. But i I'm not 100% positive about that. I read this quite ah quite a while ago, but it just, there was so much othering. Like it was like, yeah you're you're part of my group, but even within their own groups, it's like the powerful versus the not powerful and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:20:43
Speaker
But I do think, and I will say this, I think there's something to be said. I feel like in this book it was kind of like investigated. Like it wasn't like, it wasn't just part of the plot and we just accept that this is how it is. Like the whole point of these other dynamics was to feel out how they help and how they hurt.
00:21:02
Speaker
So I thought that was interesting because that specific dynamic I don't feel like is addressed in some of the more rom-com-y ones because this one wasn't so much of a rom-com. Yeah, it sounds um like very high angst.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of was. Like secret romance with my enemy is a little bit different than like secret romance with my enemy because we're forced forced to work together to solve the curse. Correct. Correct. To save my cupcakeery. No, that's not the case. But I think that like maybe that's part of the dynamic at fault here. So like the article that you described was really pointing out and before anyone, you know, so when we talk about these dynamics, it's not like we're like nitpicking here. It's an investigation and I saw some thing on Instagram the other day. It was a collaboration between a bunch of content creators. ah One of them was a chef who recreates old recipes and then a couple were like costume people who dress in that older aesthetic. And they're encouraging those content creators to add a hashtag that says something like vintage looks, not vintage values. Because the idea is that we we like to think of like the cookie cutter, the
00:22:10
Speaker
cute Mayberry type version of it, but in order to have that good feeling we get from the Mayberry version of it, we are ignoring that that was an actual harmful time for other people. So I think that's kind of what this article is doing for this very small niche that we're seeing make a little appearance in Romancelandia right now is that it's just kind of pointing out that like, okay, we like this small town.
00:22:34
Speaker
tighten it which community us against the world type dynamic but we're not we're maybe ignoring that like that dynamic has historically also had its problematic aspects and so I think that when we talk about how that example that how her secret wolf was more angsty and it wasn't funny like rom-com as I'm looking through the list I think that might be part of where this It makes it feel like it's being brushed over or like it's being ignored because when you have enough angst, even a little angst, you can examine it and be like, is this helping us? Is this hurting us? How does this help affect other people? But when it's a rom-com, you don't want that. Readers want to laugh. They want to feel relaxed. They don't want to have to examine their like you know secret biases.
00:23:16
Speaker
Right. But you get my point is I think that because because it's funny, that's almost part of why this is a dynamic. So like, Hersey your wolf didn't necessarily fit the dynamic, but it examined it in a slightly better way. So yes, I think that you are spot on Ingrid with what is happening. But I want to push back and not against what you're describing or stating, because as I said, I think that that's exactly true.
00:23:39
Speaker
but against the idea that that it can't be done so authors shouldn't even like it's so oh yeah because I was dying okay yeah so the one that I started that I didn't finish that said in Britain is titled it's hex appeal by Kate Johnson and it's in a small town this guy inherits a you know tumble down manner and is apparently the landlord for like half the village, but you know there are all of these old agreements in place. so He collects 14 shillings in rent or whatever for one of the cottages. It's just like ridiculous. But there's this one cottage that's hidden because it's where the coven lives. that's never paid It hasn't paid rent since the 1700s, so he's like on this quest to try and find this manor that owes him 10,000 pounds a month.
00:24:32
Speaker
and it ah it's enchanted so he can't ever see it unless he's invited in, right? So there are some interesting things going on there and there are some things that are like kind of standard. there's like They talk about witch trials and they talk about various persecuted components or how these women are they're part of the community but they're also apart from the community because they have to be because because of their various enchantment. And England is a different kettle of fish in terms of Which history? Which history and other forms of oppressed class history, like not that they don't have it, like the way it rolled out looks a little different than it looks in the United States. But, but this author, just like one of the witches that lives in her house is
00:25:17
Speaker
non-binary. And part of that character's magical power is that they are able to change what people perceive, so they are able to change what they look like based on how they're feeling on it in any given day. So like, there's plenty of androgyny, but if the character is feeling more masked that day, like, they look more masked. If they're feeling more femme, they look more femme. There's also a character who is just like, this character's skin color is dark brown.
00:25:44
Speaker
it's It's just the basic inclusion. and it just like this This author is not even saying, oh, and she walked into the room and saw this man and he was a white man with you know red hair and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, that you'll see in some contemporary romance where authors are deliberately trying to make sure that they're making clear.
00:26:02
Speaker
that, you know, if they're gonna state the race of a non-white character, they are also stating the race of a white character. So that's not even happening, but there's enough other stuff going on that you can tell that this author, I feel like one of the characters also was like, oh, my two moms. You know, like, just these throwaway things that are just creating that bubble of inclusivity that is not, it's not hard. It's not a big thing. It's just little lines so to create that bubble of inclusivity.
00:26:31
Speaker
So I will say um Lana Harper's series Thistle Grove is in the US and it also is explicitly inclusive even while it has the it has a lot of othering though, but it it's engaged with a lot. So the premise in the Thistle Grove series is that we're in a town and there's four founding families and each one does a different kind of magic. And there's a lot of internal conflict between the different lineages. And I read the second one, which is from Bad to Cursed.
00:27:00
Speaker
where the heroine is from the the Russian witch family and they do they do necromancy. they're They're the necromancy witches and so she like she can control ectoplasm, you know she can talk to ghosts, and her love interest is in the like the plant magic family.
00:27:21
Speaker
And so there's a lot of conflict between the two families where, you know, they're like run this town together, but they're also like, their magic is in conflict with each other. And the the he wrote the love interest is black, because people are brought in from all over the place. And the first book in the series is a sapphic romance.
00:27:41
Speaker
And like the mom of the heroine is, she's like monogamy, what's that? yeah um She's just like, she had all her paramours to have all her various children.
00:27:53
Speaker
But the two main characters do have a conversation where the heroine's like, I am discriminated against in this town because of the kind of magic I do. And he's like, shut up, I'm a black man, basically.
00:28:05
Speaker
ah He's like, I mean, they're he's nicer about it. But he's like, are you really gonna tell me that I don't understand what discrimination is? Because I'm still a black man in America, even if I can make plants grow.
00:28:21
Speaker
um and talk to trees. which because That's cute. ah Yeah. I like talking to tree men. I know. Yeah. And I will say I did enjoy reading this one, but mainly because of the aesthetics. The romance was kind of meh, but like the aesthetics of the ectoplasm, which were really A plus.
00:28:38
Speaker
ah That sounds like your aesthetic, Holly. I'm not going to lie to you. I know, right? I'm like, was there an enchanted garden with magic twinkly lights? And Holly's like, ectoplasm.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yes, there is an enchanted garden with magic twinkly lights and the flowers and the flowers all sang. Okay, I'm sold. Yeah, yeah. Now I wish that I had reread this closer to this, but I feel like the Charming Cove series by Lindsay Hall. That's the how to fake date of vampire modern girls guide to magic and romance rules for werewolves.
00:29:12
Speaker
okay But I feel like that's a little bit similar. I don't think there's as much overt examining these issues, but I will say that I recall there being a variety of human beings in different bodies living their own life. it's It wasn't as overt. I think it was listed as being one of the not so bad ones in that article too, Holly. Yeah, I don't remember. But that was the vibe that I got was because I was just kind of like, you know, I don't...
00:29:36
Speaker
I think part of it is that the town itself, I believe, is hidden, but it's not there's no othering. It's not like that. It's more the characters end up coming to this town to kind of like find themselves. I think it takes it and it makes it a little smaller. so A lot of the plot points, a lot of the tension in this series, it isn't about them protecting themselves from other people.
00:29:58
Speaker
that they have to so in one of them I think like ah one of them inherits a magical house and the house is unhappy and she has to figure out Like if she doesn't make the house happy, she can't have it and she needs a place to live.
Storytelling Dynamics and Challenges
00:30:11
Speaker
So like she has to work with the coven to like examine what's happening with the house. And she doesn't know what her own magic is yet. So she's like, it's very self discovery feeling and all of them kind of have more of that dynamic than, you know, which I think is maybe a little bit easier to pull off.
00:30:28
Speaker
when it's more internal and not the common, the conflict is not external. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will say the two that I actually attempted to read for this to do a deeper dive, one I thought I was so excited about was hexes and O's.
00:30:43
Speaker
But it's not really a witch book. The house is the witch. And so as soon as I realized that, I was like, well, nevermind. I kind of got a vibe afterwards that maybe the house, she inherits it from her best friend who dies. And it sounds kind of like the best friend might've had some magic and it I kind of, maybe she would inherit the magic from the house, but I don't know that that counts. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't think so.
00:31:03
Speaker
So the second one I started reading is called Small Town Big Magic and Hoo Boy. This is literally the case in point, case in point of like very she-ra from the jump. She and her enemy are both descended from like the original founders of the town. And it's like the witches versus the not, you know what I mean? Like it's, yeah.
00:31:21
Speaker
And she is not, she's very much not a witch in the beginning, but but her best friends, she has a little like squad. And they're all very much like one of them has a tea shop and she's an herbalist witch. And one of them is like flighty, rock stone witch. You know what I mean? And anyway. A crystal witch. Yeah.
00:31:40
Speaker
so So that's interesting that you said, you know, about the different people having different kinds of like, you had the the crystal witch and the yes the herbal witch. Yes, that's not something that I've come across in a lot. But the Celestine Martin's books, the first book is called Witchful Thinking. And I really liked that one. And they're, they're also a little different there, ah because I think magic is open.
00:32:02
Speaker
And there's there's like gnomes and shit running around. And like the hero in the first book is a merman and the second one's a fairy. But in her it's like there's very clearly marked different kinds of witchcraft and you have a different title.
00:32:15
Speaker
based on the kind of, you know, so there's like, there's a character who's a magician. And I mean, she's female, but she's a magician based on the kind of magic she does. And the heroine of the second book, it's about her figuring out that actually she's an enchantress, right? And there's like, there's a kitchen witch. And I think the first one she she's like an herbalist, basically, she does like herb stuff. um right? But they're like, oh, like enchantresses do different kinds of magic. And I don't know if you guys have seen stuff like that in these books also where it's like nuanced definitions of like different kinds of witchcraft. It's really weird you say that because on this list, I have five books and small town big magic seems to have that dynamic. Her secret wolf has that dynamic. How to fake date a vampire has that dynamic. And I'm not I don't think old flames and new fortunes has that Old Flames and New Fortunes is is a little different, and I'll get into that. But of that, almost all of mine, the coven has different witches who specialize in different things. They have different magic. So regarding my cutesy witchy romances, maybe not Holly, maybe a little bit, like the one hex appeal that I was just describing that said in Britain, you know, everybody in the house has their specialties. um I think in the Anna Guire series, they also kind of have their
00:33:35
Speaker
string As I recall in the Hex Appeal, it's just like, you're a witch and you can use your powers, and it's like the strength of your power versus like... because you're like drawing energy versus like what you can do with it. But as I was going through my witchy things, as I said, I pulled out stuff that has some overlap that is like, well, contextually, this is is like the same idea, but I wouldn't call it a witchy romance. and I'm talking about stuff like I read, the Jezebel files. There might not be explicitly a witch, but it is
00:34:09
Speaker
for whatever reason, you know, but it's, it's effectively that kind of magic. um So this is the Jezebel Files by Deborah Wilde. There's the whole magic in Manhattan and series, which is more that's by Ali Theron and it's roaring 20s magic. So it's a little it's and it's not a small town. so it in war in It's Manhattan. They go all over the place. It's everywhere. But, but to answer your question, Holly, in those books that I kind of categorized also, especially in the magic and Manhattan series, there are very explicit different powers that people have, which as you were talking, I was like, well, yeah, people have different strengths. Like, not everybody has the mentality to be
00:35:00
Speaker
a surgeon or an attorney or a secretary or, you know, like it, it takes different people ah for the world to function. So why should magic be any different? Yeah, yeah. but Also, it's just so much more explicit and obvious, which I think is also the thing in the speculative fiction narratives where you're talking about oppressed classes. And when there is a very obvious one to one association with something in real life,
00:35:31
Speaker
And it feels like the author just like barely tried. I brought it up in Omegaverse stuff before, which is like the easiest thing. There's just like such a clear one-to-one to misogyny, for example, that a lot of the time I'm like, you're just phoning it in right now. So a ah that is one thing that I really struggle with because it's... If you have the oppressed class angle, then you have something that the protagonist is fighting for or against, can take back their power.
00:36:04
Speaker
And if there is oppression occurring, there is also the opportunity for consequences. And that's one thing that also Holly's article ah touched on, right where like if you share the secret, then we're all in danger. So you get your magic completely taken away, or whatever the case may be. like if you If you step out of line, yeah the consequences are extremely dire. So there are clear reasons for it to exist in the narrative, but it's just so not creative. I mean, well, and then it also like just speaking about it narratively, then there's also um I think super Wendy talks about this a lot how a part of romance is like writing the world at the end of the book, right? And that if you do this oppressed class thing, and you make it really blatant and obvious, but also fake because it's about witches, then you can fix it at the end of the book.
00:37:01
Speaker
And you can't like you can't just fix racism at the end of the book. Right. Right. um Yeah. Well, yeah, well, you could. I wish you could bringing it back full circle to what we're talking about why we think we're seeing a lot of these books. I think that like we've always talked about how We see trends in romance, and I think it really reflects kind of what people are wanting to see fixed or things that they're examining in our society right now. And so I think based on what's going on, I and i kind of understand why
00:37:34
Speaker
There's a desire for books that have women safe and protected by a coven of women, like us against the world, solving problems together. i can Keeping ourselves safe, right? Yeah, keep ourselves safe. you know And yeah it's kind of like an us against the the world mentality. I do i actually get it. And I think that it's you know hard when you understand why people want that, but it's also so important to like, oh, like this article was really great and it made me think about it in a different light.
00:38:03
Speaker
and yeah i just i just love it when people pick things apart like that I do because the i because as soon as she as soon as I read it, I was like, oh, there it is. like I see it. And then you can go back and that's why we're here is to like pick this apart and reexamine things that we maybe wouldn't have seen otherwise. But yeah, one of my books was very weird.
Intersectionality in Witch Romances
00:38:21
Speaker
And I'm going to tell you about my anomaly really quick because I thought it was interesting. And I wondered how it would impact what we're discussing because in old flames and new fortunes, and again, I had to dig way back in my cavernous memory that
00:38:34
Speaker
It's like when you throw a penny like off the Empire State Building and try to listen for the plink. That's my memory. but um I thought when you threw a penny off the Empire State Building, it would reach such a high velocity that would it would kill the person it landed on. Terminal velocity. Holly, why are you making it dark? This not yeah yeah a romance podcast, Holly. like We don't do that.
00:38:57
Speaker
This is an example of what we're talking about in these witch romances. We're going to whitewash the reality of history. Now we've done it. Now we've done it. Oh, no. But this is why Holly is the ectoplasm witch. It's like dropping a small pebble into a harmless well, deep well, where there is nothing living that could be harmed or impacted in any way. There you go. And this is why Ingrid is the singing roses witch.
00:39:28
Speaker
i am This is me. Anyhow, within this book, it's Old Flames and New Fortunes by Sarah Hogle. And I racked my brain. I re-read reviews. I reread my review. The only thing I didn't do was reread the book. But from my memory, I remember one thing bothering me the whole time and it was that it was never made clear. it's um She has a like flower shop, book shop. It's a little shop and it's owned by her and her sisters or whatever. And they're all witches, but it's never made clear whether or not they are actually magical witches.
00:39:58
Speaker
a So like, I don't know who comes in and it doesn't but really believe that it's magic or whatever. And it's never really made clear because you never actually see her do magic. It's more that like she makes these flower arrangements for people and it's like, oh, you have this problem. I'll make you a flower arrangement to help you feel better.
00:40:14
Speaker
And then she was like, I could just feel that it was like, it's very much internal. Like she felt that it was making things better, but it it was very different. The dynamic was very different because you never know if the magic is actually real or not. i love that It's like Yeah. So which full thinking, the first Celestine Martin book was kind of, I felt was kind of like that, even though the hair hero was a merman and it was like, Right? No, no, but it like just the way it was written, it she says things like it's she makes a wish. It's about wish magic, right? So she makes a wish and it changes her life. But it's always like she does she never cast spells or any except for like the wish spell that she makes, which is like a little ritual they do when and they light some candles. But then she's yeah it's like she goes to the to the you know, flower festival or whatever that's going on.
00:41:05
Speaker
and she's like talking about how there's magic all over but it's kind of like it's like do it's just kind of like there's magic twinkling in the air and that's it yeah right so it's that kind of vibe and so there are magical creatures in this world but the witches who are the stars of the series are all just doing like ah they're like making tea, or they're doing sleight of hand, or they're lighting candles, or they're like infusing crystals, right? But they're all doing stuff that we do in the real world that could send your it's about like sending their intentions out. Right, right, right. Yeah. I like that that. That actually raises something that occurred to me as I was, I think it was primarily in hex appeal, but it's something that I've noticed
00:41:52
Speaker
in most of what I've read, which is like completely counter to that, which is what you're describing as like this inclusive idea that like people who are touching these energies who are engaging with the world in a mindful way, right regardless of whether the magic is real or not.
00:42:14
Speaker
Whereas the stuff the thing that I noticed and noticed a lot was the hand wave. We're not that kind of witch. We're not the kind that like gets dressed up and says silly chants and lights scented candles but like nothing really happens. Like our witchery is real witchery and they're just posers basically. Which I think is very like way less thoughtful. It's really yeah it's not a kind way of engaging with an ideology that people sincerely have that is intended to be you know wholesome and mindful. It's
00:42:58
Speaker
And for a fictional fantasy idea, so it kind of feels even worse. Well, and I guess I was like, that is definitely one facet to what I was thinking, but I was also thinking about it in terms of, I mean, specifically like one of the books we were talking about the one where was it yours, Aaron, where he he's cursed and he can't get it up. Right. So which please I think one of the differences between books where it's more that vibe of magic versus shooting lightning bolts and crap magic.
00:43:28
Speaker
is that the magic in Old Times and New Fortunes is it isn't it's more internal. it's ah It's more of like a harmless tool. It's sandpaper. It's a harmless tool. It's not a weapon. So like in these other tools, it's something you do to someone or to something. And in this one, it's something that is just passive. It's just, you know, and how that changes the dynamic of the book because when it can't be when it can't be used to hurt anybody, then it becomes something that's just very thoughtful and internal. And it's kind of more like a supporting character rather than like a feature. yeah ah So I think that that's part of it too is, you know, it it it sounds like a lot of these books where the magic is kind of not a, you know, banner feature character component in the book.
00:44:11
Speaker
that those books tend to be more meditative and thoughtful. And then the other ones are more action based because it's got magic weapons and stuff like that. Yeah, I think like the magic weaponry is a big thing. Although I do want to go back to what Aaron said about like the poser witches.
00:44:25
Speaker
and bring it back to hocus pocus. Because remember in hocus pocus, they're all like, yes, yes, they're like so mad at all the fake witches and like, yeah right on Halloween when everybody's trick or treating and like the fake say and like the guy who's dressed up. Where are they?
00:44:45
Speaker
Look at all these goblins. right? And they're so mad about it. They're like, they've made a mockery of this day. And this is not this not real master. Yeah, I yeah that is honestly, but one of my favorite scenes from hocus pocus period. I love that.
00:45:04
Speaker
okay Yeah, but I think also it's like that we're all laughing at that scene. and That scene is like so funny in that movie. But also, the attitude is like coming from such a different place. Like why is it okay in the movie? But but it's so irritating in the book. And cuz they're the bad guys. They're also being foolish like they're like you're like your little kids like how can they not how do how are they fooled by these like completely fake disguises it's you know in the in the movie it's an illustration of how detached they are from the present yeah and like and from reality and yeah yeah whereas the uh the what i described is is like trying to make them like cool and relatable right
00:45:57
Speaker
and like looking down on those weird wiccans. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I feel like, I don't know, I feel like none of us really love this niche sub genre. I don't know.
00:46:10
Speaker
um know like i see It does a lot of stuff that I don't like from other contemporary romances. I will say that i one, I really liked Old Flames and New Fortunes because it was very introspective. It was a little slow and sleepy, but it was cute.
00:46:25
Speaker
and the charm cove series i mean Granted, I could definitely identify some things where differently having read the article and really sat with it, but it's it's in a bubble. It's cute. They're not trying to hurt anybody. They're just like, you know, it kind of feels because it's it takes place in on a seaside village in England.
00:46:44
Speaker
So it kind of feels like, what is that show, Dr. Martin or whatever, you know, from the BBC, where it's just this little seaside town and everybody's kind of all up in everybody's business, but like it's all very like tied up neatly in a bow at the end of the episode. That's kind of what it feels like just with witches.
00:47:00
Speaker
Cool. Like it's cute. It just yeah like, you know, they have all these little problems and then they have all these different, you know, like the local pub ah has to help solve this part of the problem and the local, you know, like lending library has to solve this part of the problem. And it was very chill and relaxing. And I didn't find it to be super problematic to be honest with you. It was just fun. So I liked that one. I think also intersectionality is challenging.
00:47:27
Speaker
it's really hard to cover all of the facets of where intersectionality exists. And so I think having the discussion and being like, hey, like when I reviewed Witch Please, you know, there was, I see that now the reviews have kind of taken it down. But I think when I published our review, it was, you know, more in the four star range than it is now. And I was like, why am I the only one who feels like so uncomfortable about some of the stuff going on in this book? And you know, as more people read it, and more things happen, more people's feedback comes in, ah examining not to call out which pleases by no means the only one in this boat, but flagging opportunities to do better. Yeah. And critically examining what's happening is always valuable when we're talking about literature of
Concluding Thoughts and Future Content
00:48:21
Speaker
any Yeah.
00:48:22
Speaker
Well, without judgment, like if people like that's there's nothing wrong. Dude, for Pete's sake, we read books with ... I'm sorry. I can't even say it because I'm so embarrassed. The books that we have read, let's just say that. We've read all kinds of doozies. and i I'm sorry. I see. Mafia books. My mafia books. like Why do I look bad with- Yeah, there's all kinds of books with problematic elements, and it's perfectly fine to be like, you know what? This problematic element just really does it for me. It's like whatever. I'm sorry. i just it's the It's nice to be able to have a conversation about it, and because I came into this having not had that perspective. I was just blindly reading and being like, this is Gilmore Girls, and it feels a little Gilmore Girl-y. And then I was like, oh, it's interesting to reexamine something that you haven't picked up on to see if you agree with it, or disagree, or what you think about it. and
00:49:11
Speaker
For example, I don't think that you should use ceremonial oil from a Catholic church when you make Whoopi on an altar. I don't like that. and But you know what some people do? Traumatized by priests for life. For life. I'm sorry. I need an agenda where she goes to a provider to get her business checked out. She had to have had some kind of UTI after that. That crap is not meant for your privates, ma'am. Like, no. Anyway, this is my point that I'm trying to make is that If there are people out there who are coming into this podcast, like hooray, i love I love which books that take place in small town USA. likes You can still love them. Maybe no think about this, see what you think about it. and I will say that talking to you guys about it, like processing it a little bit helps me see the i guess the empowering stuff that they're trying to do.
00:50:03
Speaker
right i I think I mainly don't like them because they tend to be written in the kind of contemporary narrative voice that I just really don't like. yeah um it does have a very yeah yeah I do want to shout out because we seem to be in the in the recommendations portion of our yeah show because Ingrid talked about some she liked. I do want to shout out um How to Help a Hungry Werewolf by Charlotte Stein which just came out and it's a little different because there's no coven.
00:50:33
Speaker
It's a cutesy small town witch romance, but she's a solitary witch who kind of discovers she's a witch through the course of the book and stops repressing her witch hood and does all this stuff. I thought it was very fun. And it's one of those books that's it's got that rom com banter. And I think Ingrid, you reviewed Charlotte Stein's previous book. And I went back and read your review about like the banter vibes. And it's exactly like that.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah, um so it's got the banter, but it's got some like heavier stuff throughout it. So like your rom com mileage may vary. But speaking of hocus pocus, she definitely enchants her vacuum cleaner to fly with love that is all you want all you want in a bitch romance is a flying vacuum cleaner. And like doing chaotic spells in the kitchen.
00:51:26
Speaker
Also, she accidentally like makes her microwave sentient, so her microwave becomes alive, and and like the little screen leaves her little messages. That's fun. I do like that. there was It was the ex-hex, I think, where like the cat accidentally got the ability to speak, but like the only thing it could say for a really long time was treats!
00:51:53
Speaker
And so the woman on the couch was like, I knew he'd be so brilliant. What did he say? And he's just like, treats?
00:52:03
Speaker
So there are opportunities for symphonies. Yeah, like those types of things are really fun. Yeah, creativity there. Yeah. And like, like I said, the Lana Harper book, I i just thought the aesthetic was really fun. And another one that I mostly enjoyed was the secret society of irregular witches. I wanted to read that one. Yeah, it's I mean, it's different because it's British.
00:52:26
Speaker
not American and there are no coven. I mean witches have to maintain maintain secrecy but the oppression that happens with the witch society is that witches can't be together in groups. That's what's not allowed be and that's how they maintain their secrecy.
00:52:42
Speaker
by just not gathering together because group workings are more powerful. And that's when you get into trouble. So it, it has some of the stuff of these other witch romances, but I feel like it's missing a really big key ingredient, because there's no girl squad. But the big problem with that book is that every witch is an orphan. So but like, if you're a witch and you're born a witch, um and it's just like a random thing that happens,
00:53:10
Speaker
before your first birthday, your parents die. And that's just that's just like how magic works. That's terrible. And I hate it. That's terrible. Right. And so most witches don't have children for obvious reasons. And our heroine is special because she's she's the daughter of of a witch and I think the granddaughter of a witch. So witches who knew what was coming and decided to have a baby anyway.
00:53:33
Speaker
But like the hospital she was born in, like the hospital collapsed or something. It's like, parents die in like horrible way. um And then you're just raised by another witch in the community. Well, I can get back to some rec, because I don't have very many recommendations, because like I said, I don't really care for these. But if you want to go a little bit off piste.
00:53:52
Speaker
And you would be interested in potentially trying a graphic novel. I can recommend Mooncakes by Wendy Sue and Suzanne Walker. And that one is like, magic is known, but it's not like a big thing. It's just like very sweet and adorable with like delightful witchy vibes and then some community drama.
00:54:13
Speaker
I already mentioned The Jezebel Files by Deborah Wilde. I don't think she's explicitly called a witch. And that one is very deeply rooted in Jewish culture, not Christian centric. So that's also a very interesting thing in the way that's like set in Vancouver or something. So it's, it's urban, it's really fun. um But that's a four book series before like the romance really comes. It's more fantasy than romance.
00:54:38
Speaker
And then like, I don't know, if you want more traditional in this niche, it's also a trilogy, which but it's contemporary, it's got, you know, the secrecy. It might not be small town. Josh Lanyon, Bedknobs and Broomstick series, he's a witch. he like insources the guy that he's falling for and they end up getting married and when the guy finds out what happened like their marriage might fall apart they try to figure out how to make things work it's very complicated um but also deals with some themes of like in order to redeem himself
00:55:15
Speaker
he agrees not to use magic but it's such an integral part of himself that like ultimately he can't just completely give up magic like his husband won and his husband's is a detective too so like the murder mystery component becomes an issue in there So this one seems like the central premise is let's grapple with the fact that I like have date rate your mind for multiple yeah years. Well, no, I mean, it's really fast how it happens. So it's not multiple years. But that's let's grapple with that. And then it also becomes a like the witch becomes embroiled in this murder stuff. And it's kind of impossible to solve it without acknowledging that magic exists and his husband
00:55:59
Speaker
who is like, you can't magic and I won't accept this kind of has to come to terms with the fact that like, no, but magic does exist. And like, he's not, he's not the only one engaging with magic in a bad way. And he only does the one spell and he feels really bad about it because they end up getting married. I don't know, it's like drunk married or something. It's been a while since I read it. But it wasn't it was a fun read and an engaging read because Josh Langan, for all her faults,
00:56:26
Speaker
does write an engaging mystery. All right. But yeah, I just like the the whole cutesy, witchy, romhani vibe is just not my vibe. So I don't have any great recommendations for that. It's not something that I see. Yeah, I mean, and of the ones that I read that are the most like this, um I enjoyed the Lana Harper book, I read the most.
00:56:47
Speaker
But free to beware, just because it has a punny title, and a cartoon cover does not mean it's a wish which book because I also picked up this spells love because I was like, Oh, this seems like it's not like I read the description or or anything. I just like picked it up.
00:57:04
Speaker
is I was like, Oh, it's got a cartoon cover and like a a pun in the title. So like, obviously, it must be a witch book. um And it was not it was more of like a freaky Friday situation, where there's there's no witches, but they like do a ritual and, ah you know, switch around it like she you know, she she changes the past, maybe more like it's a wonderful life. I don't know, you know, but like, you switch where you like switch what your reality is, and then you have to get back to what it was after you live your your new reality.
00:57:34
Speaker
And I really enjoyed it, but it's not a witch romance. Yeah.
00:57:40
Speaker
Oh man. Well, it might be a bust for us for the books, but at least it was a fun conversation. Yeah. Totally. And apropos to the time of year. Exactly. We are very on point. Well, what are we doing for our next podcast? ah and TBD. Holly and I are gonna duel it out. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Ingrid and I have to duel about Emily Wilde's Encyclopedia of Fairies. Yeah, superlatives are happening in December. Bracket, bracket, bracket.
00:58:16
Speaker
ba But see. It's going to be a surprise, including to us. Until then, check out our show notes at smartreport.com slash podcast.
00:58:28
Speaker
You can find us on all of our variety of socials at at Smart Report. We are so-so about being on the socials, but if you leave us a comment on the blog, we will probably talk back to you, and you can always reach us by email if you have any comments or suggestions for things for us to talk about. We love to hear from you. Until then, keep it smutty, folks.