Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Spoke and Wheel featuring Four Psychos by Kristy Cunning
46 Plays21 hours ago
Erin explains spoke and wheel romances (along with other forms of ethical non-monogamy…and non-ethical non-monogamy). Holly and Ingrid are along for the read.
To prepare, we all read Four Psychos by Kristy Cunning, but we ended up talking about a ton of different books.
Show notes and book list at smutreport.com/podcast.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Episode Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Anyway, we're getting into like algebra, and I'm sorry, romance and algebra do not mix. I did not get into this genre for this. ah ah You know what I mean? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Smart Report. Hello, and welcome back to the Smart Report podcast.
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm Erin. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Holly. This month we are talking about the romance that involves multiple people in one relationship or in one collaborative set of relationships.
Forms of Non-Monogamous Relationships
00:00:35
Speaker
Strictly speaking, this is all under the ethical non-monogamy umbrella, right? Ethical non-monogamy includes everything from like casual dating, where partners haven't had the exclusivity conversation yet, or they're agreeing to just date around. um It includes open relationships that are not strictly defined as polyamory. They include polyamory, ah which includes truffles and quads, closed group relationships.
00:01:03
Speaker
And in the scope of romance-landia, this would include like poly romances, the thruples, the quads, the menages, like I said, but also reverse harem, which we'll talk about a little bit, why choose, which is a newer term, and spoken wheel.
00:01:19
Speaker
I have a clarifying question. So listeners, just so you know, this is a Aaron teaches us about this subgenre episode, because Aaron has read not poly romances, but specifically reverse harem slash spoke and wheel romances. So earlier yeah teach us about them, because she's read a lot more than Ingrid and I have, right? I've read a couple, but selectively, yeah randomly just shows up with like,
00:01:47
Speaker
I wasn't really planning to go down that road yet. I think it was, I blame super Wendy, because sometimes when I see her prompts, I'm like, challenge
Subgenres: Reverse Harem and Spoke and Wheel
00:02:00
Speaker
accepted. And I i can't, I'm pretty sure it had something to do with the Goldilocks and the Three Bears thing. Like it was like some, like there was some prompt that made me think like, oh, and then I saw that and I was like, that sounds super crazy. i think that Not knowing that to a large percentage of readers, this isn't in fact weird at all. I can't bear eventually. Yeah, I think the prompt was like furry friends or something, and yeah most people who do the TBR challenges are like, bit with a dog. And Ingrid's like, bear harem. Three bears.
00:02:34
Speaker
And I was expecting it to be like that shark book that I just read, you know what I mean? But then it was like, act there was actually a plot. And I was like, Oh, shoot, this is like, what? Now, I will say that the whole time I was like, ah there's a lot going on here. So I'm very interested to hear what Aaron has to say. Let's just say that. Because then I was like, is this like a thing? How much are people reading this? Like, because I expected when I read that one book, I was kind of like, this has to just be one of those erotica crossover situations where like,
00:03:02
Speaker
This isn't like a romance. You know what I mean? It's definitely more erotica that snuck in a little bit. I've learned that that is not the case. So i am take us on the tangent, Erin. Let's do it. Okay, but so here's my clarifying question. Is there a difference between quote unquote reverse harem and spoke and wheel romances? Or are they just different terms, one less gross than the other for the same thing?
00:03:30
Speaker
That is a great question and I'm glad you asked it because I definitely wanted to touch on that. So technically speaking, spoken wheel is a more appropriate term for what has historically been called reverse harem.
00:03:49
Speaker
And I will explain why. There are a couple reasons. First of all, reverse anything has inherent sexism. It's super gross. Super gross. Like, you know, reverse grumpy sunshine, reverse age gap. Like, what does that even mean? Yeah. Like, is what a baby and like, are we in a Benjamin Button situation? I hate it.
00:04:11
Speaker
I hate it. I mean, it's entirely based on the idea that the conventional, quote, conventional way is the legitimate way and the, quote, reverse way is, you know, so about subverting or yeah, exactly. So, so that's gross.
00:04:31
Speaker
Sorry if I'm offending anybody, but we're just going to walk down this road, okay?
Marketing and Dynamics of Romance Narratives
00:04:36
Speaker
Harem is based on Orientalist fantasies from Victorian England. So harem is a gross race-based term that we should just probably really avoid. Also, ooh I'm going to pull an air in here and tell you that in fact, I didn't realize apparently like the way that Westerners interpreted harem is also incorrect.
00:05:01
Speaker
Harem wasn't a sexual thing necessarily. It was just where the women were kept. Do you know what I mean? It was just the women's community that men weren't allowed in. Yeah, it's just it's like your bedrooms. Yeah, bed so it wasn't even sexy. It was just, hey, dude, darn a allowed back here. This is the harem. Which in a society that includes segregation of the sexes makes sense that in order to maintain the purity culture, there is a cordoned off area. that Yeah, there are lots of places where I visited places who'd seen those spaces in old, you know, castles or whatever. So yes, absolutely, Ingrid. Thank you for pointing that out to you because I would have just kept on going.
00:05:39
Speaker
so that's one thing and The final thing that I was going to mention is that spoken will is a non-gendered way to describe this relationship. you can't You can't call a group of men or a group of women engaging in this type of relationship ah harem or reverse harem because that implies the hub of the wheel being one gender and everybody else being not that or mostly not that. So spoken wheel is a little bit more inclusive of a term for how this group is composed.
00:06:15
Speaker
And so just so we're clear for everybody, a spoke and wheel romance has one person in the center, the hub, who has many partners who are like spokes going around them, but those partners do not have sexual relationships with each other. Is that correct?
00:06:34
Speaker
Or is that dicey? That is where you end up in sort of some of these gray areas of like, is it should we count this as a polyamory romance or not? like that Polyamory versus not kind of comes down to you how the characters approach the relationship, ah which we can talk about later. For the most part, it seems like what readers are looking for when they are going for specifically a reverse harem or a spoken wheel is that there is one central character upon whom we are focused and everybody else in the group is also focused on this character. And then some may or may not
00:07:20
Speaker
have relationships with each other. Some are like, absolutely not. We get into the, you know, the swords don't cross. For a lot of especially the women hub focused or like what would typically be called reverse harem books and And that gets well get we can talk about this later too, how that becomes sort of like fantasy wish fulfillment kind of a thing versus you know something more like a ah full polycule where you see relationships developing within the group that may or may not. you you know You might have people who are together in triads or quads and then also have other monogamous with one of the characters, V,
00:08:06
Speaker
groupings or metamour is kind of a situation. So to answer your question, Holly, sorry. To answer your question or to clarify, the typical marketing for this has historically been more of a swords don't cross situation where the men are all focused on one woman, and that is part of the attraction of the narrative, but not all.
00:08:30
Speaker
Okay. And then we get into the fun of like, I got into a little bit of a fun looking thing online and recently where I was like, this whole letter thing is just like made up and ridiculous. And I got yelled at because no, there are ways to understand where all the M's and F's and N's go. Yes, because apparently, so sometimes they are described as FMMM romances. And sometimes they are described as MMMF romances. And apparently those are different things.
00:09:00
Speaker
yeah Right? So yeah yes, but okay, but Holly, this is, no, it's not even F-M-M-M. It's M-F-M-M. And then you were like, that doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't just all of the M's be on one side? If that's the side that indicates that the swords don't cross and the other side. So like M-M-F is swords cross.
00:09:22
Speaker
ah MFM, which I think is really obvious, is swords don't cross, right but there's there's really never FMM, which would also imply that swords don't cross if you use the rule that like everything on the right side is don't cross. and why Why do the M's always come first? That's what I want to know. that that's it it
00:09:46
Speaker
I was gonna say the other thing is if you have like six characters and two of the men are together and like this I'm thinking of Lola and the millionaires right there are two guys who were together and another two guys who were together and all four of them are with Lola and then there are another two guys who are only with Lola right like so how do you how do you describe two romantic relationships that are separate from each other in this alphabet soup. You can't. So anyway, I was told, but I still think it's ridiculous and made up. But you know like if you
'Why Choose' Romances
00:10:25
Speaker
are trying to understand what does this alphabet soup mean, in like the people who really are into this world have some expectations about how to interpret these letters. I think for the most part that in fact,
00:10:39
Speaker
It is an indicator of how many protagonists or how big of a relationship we're dealing with because authors get creative with how they choose to have their characters interact with each other.
00:10:52
Speaker
Okay, so we are really stuck on reverse harem and spoken wheel, but there is a third term that I mentioned, which is why choose. And this one's interesting because it's much more of a catchall. This is a more recent term. I think it kind of originated ah from an increasing hatred and romance of love triangles.
00:11:15
Speaker
And like, why not both, you know, being the result. Also though, ah so why choose can just be a throuple and it can be a swords don't cross throuple or swords do like whatever, like nobody has to choose, but it can also be this spoken wheel type relationship with most of the ones I've seen are four characters, so like one woman and three men. like You pull up these descriptions and it's like, Johnny, Dwayne, and Craig, you know three completely different men.
00:11:54
Speaker
you know like so That is a very common way to blurb a lot of these books and it ends up being four, but it also includes like these bigger reverse harem books. Some people in the reverse harem community kind of want to distinguish reverse harem is more, more characters. And White Shoes is like a throupely kind of story.
00:12:14
Speaker
That's not actually how it works. I feel like White Shoes has an idea of like, I'm separately dating several people and I don't know how to choose between them. And I feel like some reverse harem books or spoken wheel books will say the group of, we'll say men for just kind of speaking about. I mean, for shorthand, that's typically like about like these cis ah We'll call them sis hat reverse heroin books. We can talk about how queer these books are or not later. Like some of them, the four, we'll say the four men already have a relationship with each other and the women is coming in. And I feel like that's not a white shoes situation because they are already a pack.
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah, right that's as oppos what I see. Yeah, that's what I see in the Omegaverse yeah pack quote pack based romances that I've read and I like Ingrid. That's what you were saying. Yes, this is also the case with bears apparently. well they were not yeah bears Bears, Little Red Riding Hood also like to do it that way, I guess. That's my expertise that I'm sharing on this. Little Red Riding Hood and some wolves? Correct. Yeah. Got it. Correct. Yeah. They also, they do that the same way. I know that Harbor by Rebecca Weatherspoon is
00:13:30
Speaker
Marketed as Polly, but it pops up under a white shoes tag. It's MMF. The two guys were in a threple. The woman was in a relationship. their Their partners were cheating on them with each other and died. oh But that's one that's been popular, that it's clearly marketed as poly, it's an um MMF, it's ah going to be a closed throuple, or I think it's a closed throuple at the end, but it's marketed as white shoes. But then there's also like Pucking Around by Emily Rath, which was a TikTok kind of popular hockey white shoes. I also haven't read that one.
00:14:10
Speaker
she has a one-night stand with one of the hockey players, and then she ends up working for the hockey team and gets with like him and his best friend, who is also working for the team, and then like they bring the goalie in as well. so That's more of the why choose. like She
'Four Psychos' Book Discussion
00:14:30
Speaker
kind of separately has relationships with all of them.
00:14:33
Speaker
so Yes, I think that does play in. but then that like One of the most popular ones now is Denna Vipers by K.A. Knight. I also haven't read this one. I probably won't. but that is like I don't know if they've had a relationship with each other in the past or come as a group, but like it's four of like a motorcycle club kind of a thing. Or it's like four in a criminal organization. And like, I don't know, but I mean, the why choose aspect might change depending on if she's the reason they're forthcoming together in a relationship versus like, what are you thinking, Holly, they're, they're already in a group together, but they might not have ever had a relationship together before.
00:15:12
Speaker
Well, I mean, honestly, I'm just thinking about the Four Psychos book that we, by Christy Cunningham, that we all read in preparation for this, where the four of the four men are a clearly established unit who already have a practice of having sex with women as a quad that she is coming in. Like, this is not a white shoes. She doesn't get to just pick one of them. It's like- She doesn't get to pick it off. What? Right. but Okay, fine. but for Fine, fine, fine. That's an interesting element of- Yeah, we peeling off one of them is not an option. So there she doesn't, there isn't a choose in there. It's like she get you get all or nothing with them. Should we back up? I feel like we need some some background on this book. We need one cent summaries. Full disclosure, Holly Ingrid and I were looking for while I was looking for
00:16:00
Speaker
what we could read for a buddy read for this conversation. And it's actually really difficult to find like a cishet or mostly hit spoken wheel book that's not like 750 pages or multiple books long.
00:16:16
Speaker
And I thought, I was lied to by my internet sources. I thought this was a standalone, but it's not. So it's four books with cliffhanger endings at the end. So we we really only plan to read four psychos and the characters, the narrative, their relationship does not fully develop in that one book. So like full disclosure. Not just not fully, does not. Period. yeah Period.
00:16:45
Speaker
Just so people know, ah if you want the whole story, I guess you have to read 700 pages after all. yeah Bummer. yeah Or you can go to Goodreads and read the blurbs and that gives enough spoilers that it solves the mystery. So I don't feel like I have to read the rest because I know what the mystery is. And I can see where this relationship is going.
00:17:07
Speaker
Anyway, okay so for psychos, there is this ghost girl who is incorporeal and invisible, but it's tied to this group of four guys who are psycho. And she is very horny for them. So horny. So horny for them and watches them have sex with other women.
00:17:30
Speaker
because she can't leave. If she doesn't see them, she fades away. So she like is physically tied to them. And throughout the first book, she ah slow she calls it leveling up. They start being able to hear her and then they can see her and then sometimes she can become corporeal. But this happens because she tries to save their lives. Right, and she levels up each time as she protects them as they go through various obstacle courses in hell.
00:18:02
Speaker
Yes. it So there's some mythology stuff going on with Satan and a big mystery about who she is. Well, and none of them know who they are. the boys don't know The guys don't know who they are either. Right. Well, the guys were human and several hundred years ago found each other and never died and kind of became this pack of like, they call them creepers. They're immortal in human bodies.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yes. It's a little complicated. kind of The idea is souls try to escape from like from a hell and then their job on the top side is to send them back so they maintain the balance. right It's all about balance, so much balance. so The overarching plot is sort of there is a power struggle happening in this realm.
00:18:56
Speaker
And who who are the sides and where does this group fit in? So there's lots of world building in this book. Lots, lots. But can we just talk about the relationship?
00:19:08
Speaker
because I personally found it very weird and troubling as a cishet female fantasy. oh Okay, first of all, there were multiple red flags, you go first because I have a couple too. Well, okay, so here's the dynamic is she has nobody else, right? And so she's been watching them for five years. And then when they can finally see and hear her,
00:19:31
Speaker
she thinks that they're just gonna accept her as part of their group because she's been thinking of herself as part of their group for like basically all the existence that she can remember and they don't. And so my impression of what spoke and wheel romances were doing for fantasy wish fulfillment for the readers was reader insert into the heroine and then having all of these men be obsessed with you and want you. i think that's right right And the dynamic in this is very different because they do not trust her. They do not accept her.
00:20:14
Speaker
they're like, once you become real, we're gonna kill you. And they have kind of a an involuntary desire reflex towards her that is then like messing up their dynamic with each other. And then she feels really guilty about it. And they're like putting all this shit on her that is not her fault. So all of that together made me feel some kind of way about about this.
00:20:40
Speaker
Well, and it does not help that she's so articulate about her feelings at various points. Like she really like bears her soul to them multiple times about how it has felt to sit there and like yearn and grieve for not being able to love them. Like for years and years. I mean, like what that felt like for her. And then they're like, yeah, we don't trust you. And like to be fair, in later books, like it kind of makes sense why. However, in this book, it was like, holy crap. Now, one thought that I had about it, I agree with you that I felt a certain way as well. But I was wondering if it wasn't perhaps a little bit more honest about the pitfalls and complications. like In most of these books, all four of them that I've read,
00:21:27
Speaker
But the point is is that there wasn't even like an acknowledgement that there were complications or risks between the relationships. like It was just assumed that once they got that magical unicorn girl, everything was going to be fine in Rainbows and Sunshine. But in this book, they're like, this is dangerous, like introducing a girl into our male bond or whatever.
00:21:50
Speaker
or even introducing a fifth person any into our bond. It's just that we have it locked down. This is how it works and you're messing everything up because it's a delicate balance. and I think that that's one of the things that you you hear about with you know non-monogamy? Yes. One of the things I've heard about with that is that it does take like a considerable amount of accountability and communication and stuff like that. So I did think that that part actually sounded at least a little bit more honest about the challenges. So there's that. I thought it was interesting to consider that at least they were they were like, this could go really badly for us, which in real life, like if you've ever read Reddit, you know that 90% of the time it doesn't go well. You know what I mean? So like, yeah hello. I also red flag
00:22:34
Speaker
It was very minor, but I did want to call out that she uses a derogatory term for travelers. Yeah, for Roma. Yeah, for Roma, multiple like multiple times. And I'm like, dude, that's- Yeah, well, this author has another reverse term series that is ah gypsy magic, ah something. It's like, so- Well, then wouldn't you think that she would know that?
00:22:56
Speaker
It seems like, given the reverse harem term, but right and the dark romance aspects of so many of these books, like that is not a concern. I don't want to say that people are being full blown and sensitive, but it just seems like it just seems like the culture of where these stories land is not necessarily concerned with not being racist. yeah i I would say it even goes so beyond racism to other insensitivities, but we don't have to... i mean Not being bigoted. We'll just say not being bigoted. Not to call it out, but it just doesn't seem like a primary focus. and Interestingly, the reverse... i know This is like going back to the beginning, but I'm in different Reddit communities for romance novels. and
00:23:50
Speaker
there is one community that I'm a part of that is like, we do not use these terms here.
00:23:58
Speaker
you know And that is a completely different conversation space about how people approach these books than another one that doesn't monitor those terms. right So like in one space, it is like reverse harem is not an appropriate term in this space. You may not use it. And you know and other in other romance subs, it's just fine.
00:24:22
Speaker
It's just like what it's called. yeah Yeah. So the tone of different spaces and how groups choose to approach it definitely is evident if you pay attention. Okay. Well, I was thinking back to Four Psychos. I had fun with the voice. like i I kept on listening. There's something about this type of narrator that I just like, like okay yeah I'm like, I'm up this ride and it's fun. and and Yeah, she she it is a great narrative voice. She's like very snarky and fun. And I mean, honestly, I feel like we picked this like solely on the strength of the blur. Yeah, which is just it's written in, in the narrator's voice. And it's just like, here are my life goals, like goal number one, get a body. my Oh, sold. I want this one. It's great. Blur big. Like, yes, absolutely. That's the draw. But so I thought that in terms of my red flags or observations about this relationship,
00:25:17
Speaker
Oh man, I had so many feelings about it as I was listening, but I think it might all boil down to, she is presented, and this is something that happens in a lot of romance, not just this kind of romance, but I think it is a hallmark of this is like, she's a badass, right? She has got all this power and she can do all the things and she can get these guys out of their problems in ways that no one else can, but It really all boils down to how she can serve them. She's the one saving their lives. She's the one making a lot of these efforts. She's the one who like she's like, I'm the sexiest one, but they still haven't bought me flowers or jewels like they bought those other women. it's like They're not really making efforts for her.
00:26:08
Speaker
Like not even the little, see like what I found so heartbreaking. She is subservient to them almost. She is. And she goes to each of their bedrooms every night. Oh, it's so heartbreaking. And says goodnight to them. and they And they never respond. I mean, they do have like halfway through the first book, they like some of them finally respond. And she it's like, that's all she wanted, was she just wanted someone to like say goodnight back to her. Yeah. yeah Acknowledge your existence. Like I'm like, this is not,
00:26:35
Speaker
i'm But can I just say, just as a aside, that one part that I started like i actually started cracking up is that during the challenges, because this is you know how my assumption about these books was that they were like really treading into erotica crossover territory? And I think frequently they can be, you know but whatever.
00:26:53
Speaker
This one though, I was like, gosh, there's a distinct lack of hanky-panky in this book. You know what I mean? So I was like, this is very interesting. And then we get to the second book, right? And they're doing the challenges and I'll be darned if they, oh, there's this acid, blue acid rain. And when it touches your skin, it doesn't burn you. But if it touches your clothing, it burns you. So all of a sudden, we've got four bare naked men running around through hell. Like, you know what I mean? It is I was dying laughing. And then she makes a couple comments about how hard it must be to fight with your Willy is like flinging around all over the place.
00:27:31
Speaker
It was pretty funny. I was laughing pretty hard because I was like, of course they can't wear any clothes. You know, like, here it is. You know, ah so funny. And then she keeps changing to these ridiculous outfits because she's getting pretty pissed off with them because they're thoughtless and being jerks to her. So she purposefully makes it like really uncomfortable for them. And I kind of, I was like, go girl, get your power back. Like it was really kind of funny. I was like, yeah Oh, right. Cause when she's in ghost form, any clothes she imagines she can, yeah is what she's wearing. yeah And then when she becomes corporeal, she continues to be wearing whatever she was wearing as a ghost. yeah But if she wants to change her clothes, she just like,
00:28:10
Speaker
goes back to ghost first goes into ghost form and like imagines her new outfit and then goes back into corporate form. She's like, man, these high heels are uncomfortable. Let
Themes and Expectations in Romance Genres
00:28:19
Speaker
me just like ghostify my feet into some flats and now I'm good for dancing. yeah It is fun. There's a lot of like, what are you wearing?
00:28:28
Speaker
but Yeah, when she dresses do and dont like she's from Pinocchio. Which is again heartbreaking because she's like, i'm I want to be a real girl. And they're just kind of like, what's your problem? And I'm like, can you guys like, but to be fair, they're all from hell. So you know, like, what do you expect? Anyhow, yeah. But, but I did, I did think it was interesting how their connections were like played out. It was very different from what the extensive reading I've done on this.
00:28:57
Speaker
Thanks for getting us there, Ingrid. This was not like any of the other similar books that I've read. I think even up to and including like, Thrupple stuff, a lot of those were more like in the scope of erotic romance, very sex heavy in the beginning and then the emotional work starts to happen and there's a little bit less sex.
00:29:21
Speaker
as their relationship develops due to the emotions that ah manifested during the sexual relationship. you know yeah i have I do have to say there is no sex in the first book, no except for the opening scene where she's watching them have sex with another woman. which there are There are fantasies, there's some tension, but there is zero sex. There's like some minor smooching like it's and some rubby-rubby, but it's it's very much like like response physical responses to each other without actually much yeah going on. yeah I was very bewildered. yeah so like That's so interesting to me because most of these books seem like they're 700 pages of just sex. it's Yeah, just as much sex as possible, sex with each of the different people. I'm thinking of like Not Your Damn Omega by Devin Sinclair, which I read last year, which was just like, oh my gosh,
00:30:14
Speaker
Oh, we were having sex during heat and we're having sex because yeah we moved in the house together. And I have to have a date with each of you so that we develop our individual relationships. And that always ends with sex. And it's just like, it's the as much sex as possible. And then also, you know, it makes sense to a certain extent that some of these books would be longer because if you're adding more theoretical protagonists to the romance. like You have to have more space to flesh that out, except for I would argue, and we can talk about this later. Flesh that out? Yeah, pretty much, Erin. Pretty much. Yeah, that's really all it is. I think it really struggles to actually develop. It seems like this book is much more focused on
00:30:54
Speaker
I think the plain old snarky stuff, but like yeah, much more sort of like on the the hell world building and like where these people fit into it, not not the sex or even fully the relationship because at all times it's almost like their relationship is a given.
00:31:12
Speaker
Well, and and I will very honestly be the cold wet blanket here. When I have read these other books, I get so tired ah of hearing the guys be like, don't you think she's so hot? I just love her butt and stuff like that. And I'm just like, guys, we get it. You think she's real hot. Can you get to the plot, please? Because the sex scenes are like two chapters long, because there's so many people that have to get in on it. And it's too much. It's too much. Just what's happening with them?
00:31:38
Speaker
the issue, you're all gonna die if you don't do x y or z and you're all sitting there like having some kind of long sex fest in a cabin in the woods like come on guys, I can't handle it its too much. Now I will say, I will say, I think I sent you guys this Reddit post that I saw one time that was like, and it was Omegaverse specific, which is like everybody leaning into the absolute ridiculousness of this like, if she does not get the knot, she will literally die like she needs the four men.
00:32:06
Speaker
or she will expire. But it's definitely, you know, I think in a lot of ways, the people who enjoy these books, I don't want to exclude myself, but I'm going to be honest with everybody, like, this isn't really my scene. But the people who tend to enjoy these books, you know, they're looking at some of these things as features, not bugs.
00:32:26
Speaker
yeah They're having fun with it. Just because we aren't doesn't mean that somebody else isn't. I mean, obviously there's a market for these books. It takes off. Yes, and I totally support that. It's just this... I mean, you guys know even in good books, if there's too many sex scenes, I'm like, can I start coming through this? It's boring. Yeah, there's only so many times you can see that happen before you're like, all right, I get the point. He's got a huge wang. She's so intimidated by it. Let's carry on. You know what I mean?
00:32:51
Speaker
Yeah, so well, and I do want to say like choosing a book for this was hard, not only because I was like, I'm not reading 700 pages, but also because I and I think I was not alone in this was like, I'm sorry, but I'm like, I'm not reading a bully romance. I'm not like I'm not going to read one of these, like she's bullied by the entire basketball team. But then like, actually, they want to all sleep with her. And I feel like that is that was a lot of them.
00:33:19
Speaker
That's a lot of them. Or like the motorcycle club ones where like, yeah you know, I'm kidnapped by these four criminals and now they're all going to share me. Or mafia or yeah, like well fill ah fill in the criminal blank. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I'd be more okay with the criminal, but ah Ingrid specifically requested that we read a paranormal one. I just like that they're a little easier for me because I'm like, okay,
00:33:43
Speaker
There's just a huge leap in the willing suspension of disbelief area where you're just like, all right, this is just like in this case, it's like, okay, it's the four horse, that horsemen of the apocalypse over, they have to be together. That's just the way it is. And it doesn't feel weird because you're just like, fine. They never have to explain like, no, we don't find it weird when we watch see each other naked, like, because it's just you know They're from hell. yeah It's fine. right It's not this like, no, i'm I'm definitely straight. I'm definitely straight, but I can't have an orgasm unless my buddy is watching me. like right like we We don't have to do these explanations if we're in like paranormal land of whatever. If you think about Ingrid's willing suspension of death's belief, aren't in the bear book, weren't they brothers? In the bear book, yes, they were brothers. and in
00:34:32
Speaker
Oh yeah, their brothers, the follow-up one with Little Red Riding Hood or whatever, they're not their found brothers, so they're not like biologically related. And they go on and on where they're like, this is our purpose in life, like we need to have like one girl to share with all of us or whatever. But yeah, it's a something else. But I will say this, I will say that one thing that I've noticed is that I feel like the thing about the bullying dynamic, I think there's like the the common theme in these books tends to be that like when it's an extreme sense of vulnerability, I think that a lot of times like if this is something that people are into, it's probably because of that dynamic. like you can't
00:35:14
Speaker
You can't be the only woman in a room full of gigantic men, right, without there being a fairly significant level of vulnerability. So it doesn't really surprise me when there are kind of overt themes like that going on, because I think that's for a lot of people who really like this kind of thing, that's part of the deal, is that they want yeah to really drive up that sense of like, you know, oh, she's so vulnerable. Oh, like they could totally hurt her. That kind of a thing. and in the site in the other subsequent books of this series. like That actually does get played up a little bit. like In her past lives, she gets her journals, and so she like rereads some of her, their past shenanigans, and it's very much the case where like they very much enjoyed that in the past. so It kind of makes more sense. We didn't want to read a bully book, but there is kind of a slight tinge of it in this one, and I think that's what that is. It kind of pulls it out a little bit in subsequent books, and I think the reason people tend to like that is because of the vulnerability thing.
00:36:11
Speaker
and Yeah, well, and like just close the loop on Holly's brought this up as like for this particular discussion, but in my research as a whole and like where I even got the list to work off of like, and I think I mentioned this at least briefly previously, like these books have a lot of dark themes. Even in Not Your Damn Omega, there's like one, two of the guys who were like full blown doms.
00:36:40
Speaker
And, you know, she's already hot for that even though they have zero conversation about how these kinks are going to work for them. And it's just, I've read some things in the past that have focused on like, why are they all BDSM? Like, can somebody wreck me one? That's not not a BDSM book. It's not impossible. One of the books that I plugged in as an option, Holly also didn't want to read high schoolers. A lot of these are set in boarding schools or colleges. Yeah, I think there was one that was like a hot for teacher and I'm like, Not doing that. Not doing the high school learner. Three teachers. No way, Jose. Nope. Yeah. Holly also didn't want to do any Omegaverse, which a lot of these are also Omegaverse, which is its own. I'm just so picky. Sorry. Cattle of fish. I think that's honestly good. But one of the options that I offered that's just straight up contemporary and seems not particularly dark,
00:37:42
Speaker
under-negotiated kinky is author Lily Gold seems to write a lot of sort of more contemporary spoken wheelie type books that are that they have more playful covers like I haven't read any of them but they definitely seem to have a different vibe than like if we pop in some covers for you I pulled some up of like Dena Vipers first versus like nanny for the neighbors but Lily Gold There's just like a completely different vibe. It is possible to find them, but it's not it does not seem to be a common trait to have like the light playful. I just read one and it did absolutely have BDSM stuff in
Exploring Relationship Dynamics & Reader Preferences
00:38:24
Speaker
it, but it was very tender and light and playful and it was called
00:38:28
Speaker
a rake his patron and their muse by Nicola Davidson. Oh, okay. Yes, Nicola Davidson. Absolutely. know The icon was too small. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I just clicked on it. I literally couldn't even read the title because on the book, like the icon, she's wearing this gigantic blue dress, right? And like all the title is blue. So I couldn't read the title. And you can barely see that it looks like there's one person ah Hugging her so I definitely did not think it was a monot. I didn't think it was that I just clicked on it and started reading and I was like, oh my so anyway There was that one So that's a throuple with like BDSM elements. I mean for Nicola Davidson, that's right. Correct. shocking He's a writer sh She's a performer
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's a whole thing. Yeah, I found the cover of the book and I totally, yes, like the guy in the back kind of blends in. I can't tell. And like the words are in her in her dress. yep if you yep If that were tiny, it'd be like, oh, a histrom. Yep, got it. I just was like, oh, I just love it. Because I miss those covers where it's like, they're like locked in an embrace. And I was like, fantastic. So I just turned reading and I was like, this is not what I thought it would be.
00:39:44
Speaker
But then I was already into it and I was like, well, they are never going to be together. So I had to finish it. But yeah, it was definitely one of those things where I was like, oh dear. Okay. So anyhow, but yeah, no, you, I could not tell that it was, it was, a it was that. Okay. But ah so, okay. So I feel ridiculous sometimes when I review books that we get his arcs and I just like pull them up on my Kindle and start reading them. And I'm like, Oh, maybe I should have reread the blurb on this one. But I feel like that takes it to a whole new level since this book is called the rake his patron and their muse.
00:40:14
Speaker
clearly out out three but yeah It was on my Kindle and the way that it was on my iPad, the way it's set up, it's just the covers. It doesn't have the title written out. If I'd been on my phone or if I'd been on my computer, it would have been totally different, but I just got my iPad, I was new to it, and I just sent you the picture of it so you could see how little you can tell that there's three people in that picture. You cannot see it.
00:40:41
Speaker
is up. I don't see how anyone, and but I also think I need glasses, but yeah, no, I couldn't tell. them All right. so um So I think we all agree that like the foundations of these seem to be rooted in Some dark themes. Bullying is not uncommon. The vulnerability of the heroine Ingrid pointed out is not uncommon. Under-negotiated kink is not uncommon. So let's discuss how equality between these characters tends to work and how successful authors are at making these relationships feel emotionally and physically satisfying for all parties. Okay, so what I'm hearing this question is, since there's lots of moving pieces, sometimes one spoke gets more attention than others. Is that where we're going with this? And it's hard to flush out. And how that plays out? Yes.
00:41:30
Speaker
I think authors tend to try to make it equal and that detracts from the character's development because the focus is on one hub character. So even if the development of the spokes is like trying to be equal, they just Basically, like in in Not Your Damn Omega, every time they were introduced, you know she was developed she was trying to develop them as different characters, different personalities, different backstories. She went on a date with each of these guys and asked, like how did you join the pack? And that just got repetitive. But also, their whole existence was focused on her and like making her happy. and
00:42:17
Speaker
It's like their primary concern was that she might leave them for some reason. They weren't necessarily fully developed characters in their own right with their own problems and feelings. And if we go to the definition of romance, where we're looking at characters developing together and separately, in a lot of ways, it feels like it doesn't meet that definition. But I think you're also right. There were moments in Lola and the Millionaires, for example, when So that's a duology. And like in the first book, the relationship is very heavily focused on just the first two guys, first the one guy and then the second guy that she starts having a relationship with because she has trauma and she doesn't want to get involved with Alpha's first. So she you know dates the beta first and then meets the Omega and works with him a little bit. And then they start dating too. It's like, So there's a natural progression, but it's very heavily focused on those two in the first book. And then like really the other four, I would say with a focus on three in the second book. So there wasn't necessarily a fully even-handed approach to like how all these relationships
00:43:26
Speaker
worked all the time, which you would think, okay, well, relationships aren't going to be fully equal or balanced all the time. Right. Well, I mean, just going back to Four Psychos and with the caveat that I didn't read the full series and maybe this develops better, but I personally felt like the four guys were completely interchangeable.
00:43:47
Speaker
even though they do have different responses to her a little bit, but I couldn't keep them straight. yeah you know like There's the one who likes to cuddle and there's the one who is her fate. you Right. I want to make another point though, because I think it supports what you're saying and I think it kind of like maybe takes it like full circle, is that I'm not sure the point in these books is for her the heroine to develop individual relationships with everyone because if that were the case they wouldn't be described so clearly and so consistently as a unit. Right. She's not supposed to be developing individual relationships. She's supposed to be developing a relationship with the unit. So that's why I think that there's often not an effort to distinguish these characters because that's not the purpose. If you look at it instead as like a person with a whole bunch of different facets, right? So like let's take for example in Four Psychos, let's just pretend that
00:44:40
Speaker
It's one person split into four bodies with four pierced weenies. ok like That's what it is. She's developing a relationship with different facets of the same one unit, one being. Do you know what I mean? It's supposed to feel like that and because if that were the case, yeah I think it would be more more like what Erin's describing. I think it would be more like that, but I think that the reason that a lot of authors and readers aren't having a problem with that is because if you like this that's That's the perspective that you're coming in from. You don't miss them having different unique personalities and therefore different individual relationships because that's simply not the point. Yeah. I mean, the point is the unit and we need more than one of them because it makes the bedroom scenes more fun when we finally get there. Except for, I mean, yes, I know that's the idea. Except for a lot of the time, the bedroom scenes are just like,
00:45:34
Speaker
a train. I don't know. It's like, you know, yeah ah you know what a lot more train than they actually end up being, you know, like a train could be intensely exciting for some people.
00:45:47
Speaker
Some people might want to train. And like, I know, I know, Aaron's like, well, there aren't plants with tentacles who are impregnating her a purple. So like, it's not exciting. me ah Pretty much.
00:46:03
Speaker
You're both weird. You don't have to fight over it. i've You can both have the crown for that one. But the point is, I think that's the thing is that you know just like Holly likes the weird alien ones and Aaron likes weird whatever. There are people who just, this is what they want. They want they want it split between they want they want everything you could get out of like the best, most intimate relationship you could ask for split in different bodies right and overwhelming. That's what they want.
00:46:30
Speaker
Yeah, they want to be overwhelmed by personalities and by getting everything you want. everything you That's why it's why choose. They want that. So what happens when one couple segment of the group refers to each other as soulmates? Does that just not matter?
00:46:50
Speaker
Well, I think that I would have to look at the book, but I would argue that I think that that's more an examination of what does it mean to be a soulmate? Because I think that if you listen to like Esther Perel, so here, at see I'm putting, I was so right. I'm totally doing my therapy thing.
00:47:04
Speaker
If you look at different relationships, right? Like different relationships give you different things and like you can have a soulmate that is not sexual at all, right? So like a soulmate is just somebody that you're like super connected on a soul level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the other relationships are invalid. I think that like maybe when we hear soulmate, you think like be all end all, like absolute everything, but really it's just like, I have a deep connection with you on a, on a soul to soul level, but you could say like, you're my soulmate. You're my protector. You're my caregiver.
00:47:34
Speaker
you So like what you're saying is actually these books which maybe seem kind of like regressive and not very thoughtful are doing some really deep work about where you are not looking for just one person to be our be all end all and are able to separate it out and recognize that everybody needs more than one person to be a fulfilled human. yeah I'm going to say that maybe it's not that deep work is perhaps a stretch, but what I am saying is that that wouldn't that terminology wouldn't necessarily bother me because I think when you look at it as like something splitting it up, i bet it I bet if you look at the book, just because they slapped that specific label on one relationship, I bet that there's at least an insinuation that the other relationships offer something as well.
00:48:19
Speaker
Because that's a a common thing that I see in these shifter books right is that there's like the protective one, the one who comes when you're you're crying and comforts you. there's It's splitting one person up so that all of your needs are met. Because in real life, like your partner, if you're in a monogamous relationship, your partner isn't necessarily going to offer you everything either. You're going to have best friends. You're going to have a podcast crew of people you talk to all the time and read smut books with. That's something my husband's not going to do. Do you know what I mean? like It's just we say like we expect that it's going to be like, prince charming, princess, everything you need forever. And that's not really how it works. so i But that's just me. That wouldn't bother me because I would just be sitting there being like, oh, that one is the one that like resonates on a spiritual level or whatever. but Yeah. And i think I think maybe part of it for Erin, sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, is that like Soulmate does a lot of work in romance books. Yes.
00:49:16
Speaker
It's a weighted term. In order to see it in this different way, we need to unpack. All this Esther Perel stuff that Ingrid's talking about is not the logic of many romance books. Correct. Yeah. But I do agree with you, Holly, that There is space for these books, and I think it happens more with a very intentional polyamory book than with a fantasy wish fulfillment Y. Chu's book, but I do agree. They're all on the spectrum of allowing for non-monogamous relationships to be desirable and fulfilling to different people. you know like
00:49:58
Speaker
so Anyway, I do think that I do agree, Holly, with the assertion. I suppose I also agree with Ingrid that we could say, well, some of them are doing more work or lifting than others.
Friendship and Recommendations in Romance Narratives
00:50:10
Speaker
Anyway, sorry, what were you going to say? Well, that's just the truth in all the books. I mean, although then, for my last point, there do seem to be a large dearth of friendships In these books, it's like you know it's we're pushing back against the ah one person, but we're still only going to serve the people that we're in this relationship with. God forbid you have a girlfriend you can get coffee with. but i mean she's a ghost like In Four Psychos, she's a ghost. Yeah, I don't think she wants friends. I'm not sure she's actually capable of having friends. Actually, what you do discover, spoiler alert, is that Lamar was her best friend in a previous life. so Lamar is her best friend. Which is why she's so protective of him also.
00:50:50
Speaker
Correct. Correct. So that does happen. And this is why I'm saying like, I did actually find this book interesting because a lot of the other books that I've read were similar where it was like that. And I was just kind of like, or the one book I read where the hub had friendships was because it was a series and the next book was set up for the friend to yeah find her own spokes. So there there were things in this book that I think were a little bit different. And that's one of them. Well, so is it worth offering recommendations?
00:51:18
Speaker
for this conversation. i mean i yeah Look, if you you like these books, you like these books. I mean, like you probably know that they're out there. yeah or Or just acquire some books on Stuff Your Kindle Day and don't look too close at the covers when you start reading. That's my method. Yeah, that's a great method. I love that method. Chaos method. Yeah, i so I am reading The Lady of Rook's Grave Manor by Catherine Moon, which is another frequently recommended spoken wheel book but I'm only halfway through so I don't know how it's gonna end but so far it's like pretty fun ah but it is like Four Psychos was fun but had no sex in it and ah so if you want to read a book about hell maybe but you have to be ready for the whole thing. I think A Lady of Brooksgrave Manor is actually a standalone
00:52:03
Speaker
um And it has lots of sex in it. And it's more of a, she goes on dates with a series of different men that then become a group rather than a group is established and that she joins. But like I said, I haven't finished it. So ah that we'll say it's a ah weak recommendation. Well, Agrid, would you recommend your Bears in Mind by Sam Hall?
00:52:29
Speaker
I mean, ah I will say that the first one, it was a little much for me. It wasn't like they were brothers. And for me, that I could not get over that. I was just like, that's not a thing I can really like. But there was there was ah an underplot that was enough that it got me through to the second book. And so there was some shifter world stuff that I thought was interesting. I had read another book that I reviewed on the blog. I have to remember what it's called, but it's it's like it's not just,
00:52:59
Speaker
and think Is it bears? gold Is it Goldie and the Bears? is No, that's the first one. oh But there was another one that I did where she's repairing she's in charge of repairing a clock tower. That one, unless you're really into just like- Gilded mess. Gilded mess, and it by truly is a gilded mess.
00:53:16
Speaker
There's just so much drooling and objectifying and like just so much dirty talk about all the stuff they're going to do to her that like there is a subplot, but you really have to sift through the dirty talk to get to it. It was a bit of an archaeological expedition for that one. I can't say that I really loved it. And when I think about the parts of spoken wheel that I'm not a super huge fan of, that's kind of the example that I have for you. so And then I will say the historical one was a little bit more like relationship-developy. And that one, i even though the hanky-panky wasn't really like i mean it was just it wasn't really like my thing, but the relationships that they developed were were fun to watch, I guess.
00:53:59
Speaker
i Yeah, the Goldilocks series is an interesting series if you like it just because it has the subplot, but that's really all I can recommend it on. Honestly, this one, Four Psychos, is the one that I found the most intriguing and interestingly had the less the least amount of of bedtime activities. so i mean yeah like If we're going to just talk about menages, I could recommend a lot of books, but that's not what we're doing, so I'm not going to go there.
00:54:23
Speaker
yeah Right, so that's what I was thinking. I am going to go solely based off of Spoken Wheel that I actually enjoyed and thought had some really interesting development in it, in addition to being sexy. And that's Lola and the Millionaires, also by Catherine Moon. So that's an Omegaverse, but it's it's not not your mom's Omegaverse. it I don't know. The the way that um that Moon kind of has this Omegaverse world,
00:54:49
Speaker
I think specifically maybe more with Lola and the Millionaires because it's actually the second and third book in a longer series. And it sounds like the first book, ah which is Baby and the Late Night Howlers is like a more traditional type of spoken wheel, especially Omegaverse spoken wheel. But Lola and the Millionaires is dealing with, Lola's a beta, um and she forms the hub. And she, like I had mentioned, she kind of starts slowly dating ah she has some trauma relating to relationships with alphas. So she's like, I don't want to be around any alphas. So she starts dating a beta in this pack, then the Omega of the pack. Normally the Omega forms the hub, but in this case, he does not. And there's no M-Preg and there's, ah there I mean, it is Omegaverse, so the alphas do not, but I think they only not during the heat. So it's not it's not as tropey Omegaverse as other stories and did some interesting things with
00:55:42
Speaker
how the spoken wheel relationship kind of operated. So that was a fun read. I don't know that I would necessarily recommend any of the other ones that I've read. I guess I wrote down as I was going through my list, I think, Halloween by Holly Wilde that Ingrid told me to read for Halloween.
00:56:03
Speaker
I just passed along a recommendation. That's just like completely, I mean, it kind of has like an optimistic ending. So you could argue that there's some romance in there. But that one's just a lot of weird sex with pumpkin
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:56:20
Speaker
dudes. So yeah maybe if you're looking on for On that note, let's close out this conversation because I don't think I can take any more. If you want show notes, they're at smutreport dot.com slash podcast. We'll put some pictures up. we' like We'll link to all the books we talked about. so Even if you are like, oh, they didn't recommend that, but that sounds like just my cup of tea.
00:56:43
Speaker
We'll have everything listed. I think next time Ingrid talked us into doing another bracket. For something completely different, we're going to start talking about Westerns real soon, but probably not until April. so We're going to take a month off in March so we can actually like read a bunch of Westerns and talk about them.
00:57:10
Speaker
So many Westerns. You guys know I love a good one. Historical Westerns. Historical Westerns. What we have to do is say, it's a showdown. Like that.
00:57:24
Speaker
me
00:57:28
Speaker
it Pistols. Pew, pew. Yeah, it's a Western. We're going to do it. i mean I make them do these things. They're welcome. I, for one, am very excited. I'm so excited. Well, and it'll round out. We are a little bit lean and on the historical Westerns, so I'm, you know, we we can use the padding here, so that'll be good. yeah yeah On that note, keep it smutty, folks.