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Enemies to Lovers, featuring The Hating Game by Sally Thorne
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We're talking Enemies to Lovers this month, and in preparation, we all read The Hating Game by Sally Thorne. We talk about what we want from an Enemies to Lovers romance, whether The Hating Game is a good example of one, and whether it's creepy to paint your walls to match your crush's eyes.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Enemies to Lovers' Trope
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah. So I just thought it was like really interesting. And I just love, you know, I think I liked the trope and I, I think it's really fun. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's my report. Hello and welcome to another episode of the smart report podcast. Today we are going to talk about the enemies to lovers
Defining 'Enemies to Lovers': Misuse and Interpretation
00:00:16
Speaker
trope. We have lots of feelings about the enemies to lovers trope. So hopefully this will be a fun conversation and not like a raging conversation. like we're gonna keep it we're gonna keep it upbeat upbeat yes we have we have so much fun all right so today and every day i guess i'm erin i'm holly i'm angry so let's get into this before we talk about our buddy read which was the hating game by sally thorne let's go over like what even is the the enemies delivers
Enemies vs. Dislike and Rivalry
00:00:51
Speaker
trope. And I think this is where a lot of our frustration with the trope hinges on becoming frustration, because it seems like this trope is very widely interpreted. Oh, and we've, we've, I think we've made our feelings clear a couple times here on the blog if y'all read it, but yeah, I have feelings about it. But maybe just to each other, like, I feel like maybe we just text each other about it all the time. I don't even know. I feel like we've beat this horse, you know, real dead, but
00:01:18
Speaker
Basically, I believe I speak for all of us when I say that there's a huge difference between, I think I'm saying I don't like you, but in fact, from the moment I've seen you, you've lit my panties aflame, to I want to end you, or I would like to destroy you. I would love to see bad things happen to you. Very different things. Very different. Also, I feel like there's a little bit of a mutual aspect to enemies to lovers, right? Oh, yeah. It doesn't work if it's just one sided. It's not one sided? Yeah. It definitely is one of those things where it's perhaps too flexibly used and perhaps overused. Enemies to lovers is like mortal enemies. We're talking like
00:01:55
Speaker
Like this is not Romeo and Juliet, where when they see each other, they like each other right off the bat. And then they discover their families are enemies. Like they yeah never wanted to hurt each other. I'm talking in the book, whatever we're reading, these characters would very much like if a train was coming and this person was strapped to the tracks, they would at a minimum have to have a huge moral talking to with themselves in order to do the right thing because they really don't like that person.
00:02:19
Speaker
really Yeah, that's strong. i It's better when it is. I'm sorry, but it is. I mean, I think for me, the word enemy is a strong word. It is. So the correlating feelings of the trope should also be strong. That's why we have on the blog, instead of having so much under enemies to lovers, we have sparring partners. ye Or like there's in my personal tags, I don't think we have it on the blog, I have rivals to lovers because there's a lot more rivalry and antagonism. I mean, even heated rivalry, which is one I was going to suggest for my enemies to lovers rec. Like they don't they don't like each other, especially in the beginning, but they don't. Shane is like Ili is a dick and Ili is like, this kid is a goody two shoes and he's annoying. You know, it's not like a full blown hate each other.
Setting Contexts: Speculative vs. Contemporary
00:03:09
Speaker
It's that they kind of have this internalized rivalry that makes them perform better because they're competing with each other. That's a completely different
00:03:18
Speaker
thing then enemies enemies is like a visceral word it's inside it's so heavy yeah I mean and we also to go back to the Romeo and Juliet example like we also have a feuding families trope because I feel like sometimes those books where our families hate each other. And sometimes I feel like those books are also legitimately enemies to lovers, depending on how they deal with the kind of external feud. and But sometimes they're really not. Yeah.
00:03:51
Speaker
Well, and I'd also like to point out, I also, I think one of the key things for me is it can't be passive dislike. that There has to be like, cause enemies suggests a battle, right? It's not a battle if you're just sitting there being like, yeah, I hate that guy. You know what I mean? Like they're, you're on opposite sides of a battle and you're, you know, like the tension comes from that situation. It can't just be like passive dislike. Oh, I hate that guy. That doesn't count. Cause especially if like, Oh, I hate that guy, but you're still being nice to the family picnic.
00:04:21
Speaker
Nope. That's not enemy of celebrities, I'm afraid. So anyway, I i am a bit of a um gatekeeper, I'm afraid, to this one. I know, I know, and I shouldn't be. I should be more open-minded. This is nothing if not an open-minded blog that we're running here. but um but not about enemies to lovers, sorry guys. There's too many tropes otherwise, like come on guys, we gotta nail this in here. Enemies to lovers means there's an active battle being done, line drawn in the sand, I want bad things to happen to you, I will actively participate in those bad things happening to you given the chance, like this is like enemies to lovers, enemies, that's how I feel about it. I think it's best in science fiction fantasies, the speculative realm,
00:05:04
Speaker
I'm trying to think of any alternatives where like they're legitimately wanting to kill each other. Those are delightful. I think you can get a little bit of it in historical romance. I think it's really hard to pull off in contemporary romance because I think also in historical romance you can do some throwbacks to those internalized feuds like you're French and I'm British and we have been fighting for a hundred years.
00:05:29
Speaker
And I have met you and I will cut your head off. And then the other one is like, no, I will cut your head off. And then they leave and come back and leave. come back Or like spy versus spy is another one that works really well. That is so true at a really good point and I also feel like one key thing to point out there is that there's a reason why I think that they hit so well when it is like sci-fi historical stuff like that because nowadays it's really hard to think of an example for like a contemporary reason we would have an active enemy like we don't really do that nowadays you know what I mean?
00:06:01
Speaker
But you can manufacture all kinds of very legitimate reasons why you should throw a space knife at somebody it just it's easier because you also don't want to set it up where You dislike any of the characters because of the actions they take because of this enemy ship So it's kind of hard to make it work without hating somebody.
Analysis of 'The Hating Game'
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I i feel like also there's definitely ah Like geopolitical conflict and warfare going on right now, but it'd be a real bummer to read a romance. I any kind of contemporary politics that would be to end the day. Like real bummer, at it right? But if ah if I'm like, oh, it's a medieval, and we're dealing with like the suppression of whales, that is so far removed.
00:06:45
Speaker
that I could just be like, oh yeah, you guys are on two sides of a war and people are doing really messed up things to each other. And like, there's a definite power imbalance and there's like insurgent guerrilla warfare and so it or whatever. So there are all these factors, but because it's it was a thousand years ago, it it's like okay to read about basically. That that but sweet, sweet distance.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Obviously, this is settled law for us here. It really is. So I think we should talk about the hating game. And we picked this for our buddy read, not because we thought it was going to be a good enemies to lovers romance, but because it consistently tops lists that people put together for best enemies for lovers romances. And it is a contemporary workplace romance. Yes.
00:07:44
Speaker
which if anyone follows the blog, she's getting off alarms for Aaron. like If you listen to this, if you've followed us at for any amount of time and you hear workplace, enemies to lovers contemporary. Yeah. Your immediate thought should be Oh, Aaron, oh, poor HR. Like that should be what you're thinking. of Just saying. Anyway, go ahead, Holly. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. And it's also a single POV heroines journeybook, which I am on record as not liking, although that
00:08:17
Speaker
Actually, I thought was fairly well done in this book and we can talk about that. I hope we have extra time to discuss that because I have been waiting for this moment with Holly for some time now. Excellent. Yeah, so maybe we should do some one sentence summaries and then we'll talk about The Heat in Game and how well it works or doesn't as an enemies to lovers romance.
00:08:37
Speaker
All right, so my one sentence summary. Joshua and Lucinda are the co-executive assistants at a publishing house and they are very opposites and they antagonize each other all the time. But it turns out Josh is just totally in love with Lucy and is a big old dumb dumb who thought the best way to deal with that was by pulling her hair. I'm glad you brought up the pulling the hair. All right.
00:09:13
Speaker
I have to agree, that was actually pretty well done. yeah Let's see. ah How about and forced to be colleagues, but happily enemy is Josh and Lucinda poke each other's buttons at the office for, is it years or months? Years.
00:09:29
Speaker
you ah For some time, for a while, becoming HR's greatest enemy together before they discover that in fact, they're a match made in heaven. There you go. Aaron. Alright, I don't know how much different I'm gonna end up being.
00:09:44
Speaker
but It's pretty straightforward. this is It's a very it's a very like tight book. But I will say on their first day at work after an unfortunate merger between two completely different publishing houses, Josh did not respond to Lucy in the way that she wanted him to. So they became antagonistic rivals.
00:10:10
Speaker
instead of in different colleagues. And when their bosses introduce a new C-suite position, their rivalry explodes even further as they both vie for one oversight role. Oh, that was a little bit more. That had more detail. That was Yeah. I like having the crux of the issue there, Erin, so good job for putting it. They do actually have something to battle over, which is this really coveted position. Yeah. so The promotion that they both want. Correct. Yeah. That's important. Important detail. That is true. Good job, Erin. Very thorough. Anyway. Thank you, Erin. You're welcome. so i mean so Tons of people obviously think this is an enemies to lovers romance. so like In what ways does it work as an enemies to lovers romance, if any? Can we can we like see that?
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, I was actually surprised at how anger just rolled her eyes, but I was to say, I was actually surprised at how much I felt like this was actually a legitimate enemies to lovers because from the jump, there's this whole pulling her pigtails thing that later on it's like, oh, I've loved you forever. And my husband, I made him watch the movie with me last night. And he was like, so this was kind of creepy.
00:11:26
Speaker
I was like, yeah, how about the way that he painted his bedroom? He's like, that's even creepier. Like, okay, yes. so Okay, so I asked my husband, I was like, okay, creepy or romantic, we're gonna do a little like poll here. You've known me for two days and you paint your bedroom.
00:11:46
Speaker
to match the color of my eyes. And he was like, impossible. Like what are you gonna do? Like go to Sherman Williams and get a bunch of paint chips and then hold them up to my face? No, that's ridiculous. ah Eyes don't work like that. Paint doesn't work like that. That's hilarious. That is hilarious. I think it's really funny that both of your husbands are like... also you do die you did not marry You did not marry romance novel husbands. That's not what happened here. You married well-adjusted,
POV and Character Motivations in 'The Hating Game'
00:12:19
Speaker
solid for life, bet your bottom dollar on these guys' husbands. I think that's hilarious. but I am going to text my husband right now and ask him, and I'm going to see what he thinks.
00:12:30
Speaker
ah because
00:12:35
Speaker
but So my point was, sorry, she but like, even though he has these things that come up later, it's at the beginning. And honestly, for maybe 50% of the story, like, I was like, oh my God, Holly, I know why you have big feelings about this. And she's like, I don't think you do actually. But I was like, he's nagging her. Like, this is like, yeah he's pulling her pigtails. There's this whole thing. Like, they are actively antagonizing each other.
00:13:05
Speaker
And I ended up having a lot of feelings about that because I was like, like I said, he's nagging her like we're dealing the pulling the pigtails thing like, oh, he likes you, but he's just pulling your pigtails. It's like, I don't love that message at all. So I think that's also a challenging thing about contemporary romance with enemies to lovers.
00:13:19
Speaker
because the pulling the pigtails thing is not sexy. But it is true that they were extremely mutually antagonistic toward each other from the jump and like yeah proactively harass each other. Okay, so I asked my husband via text, I said, question, do you think it's romantic for someone to paint their bedroom the same color as the eyes of the person they're secretly in love with? It's for the podcast. And he wrote back,
00:13:49
Speaker
hashtag stalker. yeah
00:13:53
Speaker
Okay, so here's the thing is like, they're so obsessed with each other. Yeah, right. And that's, which is very obvious, even when there's like mutually antagonistic, right? Because that's, that's why it works though, in this book. So here's the thing, and one, the nagging thing, I have a rebuttal to that. And it's this,
00:14:11
Speaker
If he was just like, oops, I done fucked up, I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have done it that way. I haven't dated a lot, my bad. That would be not good. I mean, like I personally was like, ah hold on, we've skated over his very legitimate, massive emotional wounds in this book. like he there's reasons why he was like, Oh, yeah, I'm i'm totally not gonna put myself out there with this girl who's like, clearly, ah I enraged her because his big wound is I'm not nice enough to love the first day. Yeah, that's true. That was saying hi, when you're introduced it when somebody is like, Hello, nice to meet you. I'm gonna be your closest counterpart at our new job. And then your response is to not say hi. And to are you're back on them? That's like okay, except that he just got through. He just got through being the poster boy for downsizing a third of his company and having everyone hate his guts and be terrified of him. So it's not like he goes into professional situations being like we're gonna have a great collegial relationship. Yeah, that's true. I'm gonna be friends with Nicole. I think
00:15:18
Speaker
In this book, this is this is why. so I feel like one of the reasons Enemies to Lovers is too frequently assigned as a trope for books is because it's really hard to get it right. and In this book, I think that, yes, they're both assholes to each other. They cross so many lines, but it's the bases are technically covered. so like You cannot like it for those reasons. I think that's totally valid. He is an asshole to her.
00:15:41
Speaker
like When he makes her cry, I'm like, ooh, that's gonna be tough to come back from. But like, because I always look for like, from a character development standpoint, like where did it come from? Is it covered? Is there an explanation? Where's the wound that matches that behavior? Do you know what I mean? And I couldn't find one that wasn't explained in the book. Now, painting the bedroom a different color, that was to me a little bit overkill. Because I was like, you don't have to have it where he loves her.
00:16:07
Speaker
He loved her secretly from day one. like That's not necessary. I think it just was like for the swoony ones out there, but I think it was covered. Yeah, you know, and maybe it would be a stronger it would be because I felt very conflicted about it as an enemy slivers romance. um Really? Yes, I did about it as a romance. Well, ah because like liking it or not. I felt I personally felt that it was very clear that he was in love with her even when he was being an asshole. Yes, which to me kind of undermines the enemies to lovers thing. And it it's more of a, I'm oblivious about somebody who doesn't know how to do social cues. Okay. the fight But I think it changes. I think the trope, there there there and there has to be a shift in enemies to lovers. It can't just be like, I tried to shoot you yesterday, but I love you today. Do you know what I mean? So there has to be a transition. The transition is when
00:17:03
Speaker
She has the sex dream about him and dresses up sexy the next day on purpose. That's on her end because on some level that sparks some curiosity for her. and yeah Curiosity is the the key is what shifts it for both of them. So she has the dream, the hot dream about him.
00:17:19
Speaker
the curiosity is sparked. He sees her get flustered and sees her curiosity and that's because he the whole time he had the whole point of the notebook thing where he's like trying to like keep track of her moods and stuff in the notebook. I think is that I think like that my husband thought was like, hashtag stalker super sketchy. yeah right We usually stop doing those things in middle school, I'll admit. that's you know But anyway, I don't think he can honestly tell. But until the wall painting thing, which I think jumped the shark a little bit, I thought it was pretty solid until that moment. Because I was like, well, if he at the end of the book, if he's like, you know i just I honestly i had these super strong feelings and I couldn't tell what they were, and so that's why he's like keeping track of
00:18:00
Speaker
their interactions to try to figure it out. And then that's why in the elevator he's like, I'm just testing a theory. That would have been a more solid book to me. Because that would and that would have put it solidly into like, hands down one of the best examples for enemies to lovers of all time, in my opinion. Because up until that moment of like the sparked curiosity on both of their parts, I think they are enemies. They actively go out of their way to report each other to the HR, right? They do stuff on purpose to piss each other off and sabotage each other.
00:18:26
Speaker
like It's there for contemporary. It's not like it's a clear cut when it's historical and they're trying to like dagger somebody in the ribs. Right. I mean, but maybe it's because I know it was a romance novel, but like she has a line very early on where she talks about she saw him for this first my time and she smiled at him, right? And she and she gave him her like wild, crazy, goofy smile that she has And she's like, it's like he kept it, put it in my pocket and kept it there and is holding it hostage. And I'm like, that's a weird thing to say about somebody who's your enemy. Right? Right. Is it though? What if you're a chronic people pleaser? I mean, she is a currency. Yes. say yeah Yeah. I mean, okay. Yes. You're right.
00:19:14
Speaker
You're right. I usually am guys. I usually am. Yeah. So you're right. So that's like, okay. So let me, let me, I get it. Ingrid, you're saying like, he has taken that from her. Yes. And therefore that is a weapon against her, basically.
00:19:33
Speaker
But from a romance novel standpoint, I think Holly is also spot on that like that is a, that is like stealing the glasses and putting it in the pocket. Exactly. That's what that you know, and so to me that reads as Oh my god, he loves her. Right? Even though to her, this is why I'm saying it's like just like an oblivious person, not knowing, like understanding. And I, yeah. And I think, I think what you said it is right. Like if he hadn't painted the bedroom, if it hadn't been that he knew he was in love with her, but yeah was rather really confused about his feelings, that she sparked really strong emotions where he was attracted to her, but kind of repulsed by her at the same time, that you're right, that that would be better.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that because I think it kind of adulterates those I think when you look back at adulterates those moments in the beginning that I think were executed very well when it was were for enemies to lovers but it just when you when you read that all of a sudden you're like well now I have to like now it was just pulling the pigtails which is incredibly toxic behavior. Yeah, right yeah i didn it was an emotional roller coaster and even when we finished the movie my husband was like well that was an emotional roller coaster I was like so but like i but
00:20:50
Speaker
but right now but That's why I was like save it for the podcast because I was like oh my god poor Erin is probably like Because Erin hates it when people like go off the handle and they're like but now I can't trust you ever again." And then they're like, nevermind. Yeah, but Erin also hates it when it's like, okay, we've had this very obvious, I'm not going to tell you something that will be, it's going to blow up in your face and we know that there's a very easy way to solve this and I'm just going to not do it. Like those avoidable moments of like conflict, Erin's like, come on. There were so many moments where I was like, ooh, she's either going to love this or hate this because the flip side of it is, Erin just loves an emotionally constipated hero so bad.
00:21:30
Speaker
ah So bad. So bad. Like, the more you're like, oh, honey, the more she's like, I love him so much. So I was like, she's not going to love it or she's going to hate it. I mean, or she's just going to come in and just be like, you know, a confused mess on the podcast. I do think just ah that this is not necessarily relating to enemy lovers, although it does kind of speak to that ah discovery moments that kind of build that bridge between enemies and lovers, right? Is whenever I got to the point, there was points, a couple points where I texted and I was like, this chick.
00:22:01
Speaker
Because it was there were moments where she like got really upset, but like she knew she was having feelings about like I'm thinking about the wedding. She was having feelings about hating his guts because the conversation with his boss had just occurred and she's like, well, now I can't actually trust him, right? We're on the up part of the roller coaster dump. I don't know where we are. So wait, pause because for readers, so we're talking about how they made an agreement that she was going to accompany him to this very toxic wedding situation to be like his buffer. And right before they go, his boss makes a comment about how it's going to be competition and Josh is like, there's not going to be a competition for this job after they've already built up all this intimacy and these connections and Josh has clearly been wooing her. And then he makes this like,
00:22:41
Speaker
totally out of nowhere comment that's like, oh, well, there's no competition for this job. And she's like, what the hell? So anyway, go ahead, Erin. Right. So she's already having like reverting to these antagonistic feelings. I don't trust him, blah, blah, blah. In addition to the fact that she has asked him multiple times to like explain some stuff about the wedding and he has continuously refused to do so. Yeah. And she can feel tension happening at the wedding. And then she finds out what it is.
00:23:06
Speaker
which I don't think I need to, I don't need to share that spoiler, I don't think. And spirals about it. Which I think is an understandable spiral. Like, come on, if you were if you were in that position, you'd be like, what the hell? Like, I thought it was pretty valid. No, I mean, you're entitled to your feelings, but at the same time, knowing the whole time what she did that she didn't have the information and that they didn't have a relationship and all this stuff, it was like, whatever. But I i was just like, what?
00:23:34
Speaker
like I mean, I think it was a very clear illustration of her conflicted feelings, right? She's saying one thing, but she's feeling something else. But I really did like, then I turned another corner, you know, like, this is the roller coaster of it. I'm like mad. And then we turned the corner because they have a very excellent resolution conversation with each other. Oh, they do. That was very satisfying. Yeah. So it was just a lot of intense feelings for me. But I think they did. They talked stuff through in pretty cool ways until the very end when he revealed the bedroom walls. I was just like, okay.
00:24:11
Speaker
Well, that was just one step too far, in my opinion. like They could have just omitted that altogether, and I think it would have been a good ... Because like for me, the satisfying stuff came before that, and so that was just like, oh, one step too far, one step too far. You know what I mean? like You could have just taken that out.
Controversial Plot Points
00:24:25
Speaker
Even if he'd said, like oh, I guess like I had to pick a color for my room, and it's weird that like I subconsciously picked one that's like the exact color of your eyes. That would have been different, but intentionally going to do that, that's different.
00:24:34
Speaker
Anyway, the other thing that I thought was interesting was, so as far as Lucy's character development, what did you guys think about the hotel breakfast scene? I thought it was delightful, but it was kind of meant to be delightful. I thought it was a good flip the script on the guy riding to the rescue. you know yeah Not that that's so uncommon now, but this is enough, I think. yeah i mean okay like eight years old so yeah and also i think in terms of character development she struggled with people pleasing the whole story he's been trying to push her to stand up for herself initially with just like digs but later on like right before they go he like fully holds her accountable so it seems like that's her coming into her own like in terms of a character growth arc i thought it was pretty good why ingrid what are you thinking well I actually thought it was really interesting because when they first start going for the shared position, I was like, I'm sorry, but he's more so qualified for the job than you because she's too much of a people pleaser. She has no boundaries. She'd get eaten alive. so I was like, no. and so By the time they got to that scene, I was like, this is a clear scene to show that she is capable of pushing back, having boundaries. so for
00:25:47
Speaker
For frame of reference what ends up happening is that like there's tension between Josh and his dad. His dad's kind of a dick and he treats Josh badly and she ends up like standing up in a room full of people and basically like hands his ass to him, verbally like total dressing down.
00:26:04
Speaker
And what I think is funny is that like at one point, somebody like starts to clap and then stops, which is like such a play on. you know Because like in books, they're like, oh, and everybody clapped. You know what I mean? And I had to laugh because I thought that was so funny because I was like up they so she like, she could tell she was almost pushing it too far. So then she made it awkward. And I was like, yes, that's better.
00:26:22
Speaker
but um Because you never want one of those scenes where it's like, and everybody clapped. you know Because they they feel kind of good, but then you're kind of like, oh, come on. like You've taken me out of the story now. But um it was important for the scene. I'm not sure how else they would have shown that she was capable of saying the unpopular thing. Because at that point, they were they were tight again. And you know she was sitting there thinking, like well, there can't be any future. like What if there's a future or whatever? and So it showed that like she's comfortable being unpopular to do to do what she thinks is right. and So it was important because otherwise I would have been like, she's not she'll get her butt handed to her if she gets that position. She shouldn't have it. That's a really good point that you know you're sympathetic to the narrator and she's so passionate about her workplace and her job and building it up to be something wonderful, but enthusiasm is not sufficient for management and you do have to do the hard thing a lot of the time. Yeah. And the job is like chief of operations, right? Yeah. yeah it's like Which is all just like doing the hard thing all the time. This is not marketing. Yeah. this yeah more It was clearly more his wheelhouse in the beginning. And then i sort of it sort of shifted into being like, well, I could see that she seems like she's developing herself. She could do it. Yeah.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yeah, so I thought that was like one of those really weird scenes where normally I'm like, Oh, but I thought it actually ended up being kind of important for her development. He just kind of stood there and I was kind of like, Oh, okay. Yeah. So anyway, so Erin, and let me just point out gently that this is the, your feel, your response, your feelings, the back and forth directly correlates to the whole point of the plot of the book, which is enemies these two lovers.
00:27:58
Speaker
But where did the dial land? Was it like, we love it, we hate it, drove me nuts? Should it properly be tagged, enemies to lovers? Oh yeah, like that's another one.
00:28:09
Speaker
ah So you guys have made some really good points about, and I thought of this too, but I think discussing it with you has made me feel it even more strongly that the pulling her pigtails to get her attention, he's secretly been in love with her the whole time, really detracts from the enemies to lovers components of the book. And maybe it's easier to see that in hindsight, because I did feel like it was a solid enemies to lovers for a contemporary romance because of their level of anti mutual antagonism and loathing.
00:28:39
Speaker
starting from the jump of the book. I it didn't love the, I've been in love with you the whole time and just like pulled your pigtails to do it. And that was what, so that was as a romance, that was a lot of my yeah emotional roller coaster as well. Whereas like, I can see where this is going. I can see that this is pulling pigtails and I don't like that. That's not something that I want in a romance. But after going through the whole emotional roller coaster, I i left the book feeling like ah yeah You know I know what when I was saying initially I was like Holly I totally get it your feelings and she's like um I kind of liked it I was like I get that
00:29:18
Speaker
you know, like having now finished the book, I get that feeling because I think it was wrapped up really well. I think it wrapped up in the book way better than in the movie because they had that conclusion scene intimately together, you know, where he privately, they have this private moment of like resolution and building their relationship for the future. Rather than the public one. Yeah. ready yeah yeah Holly, how about you? Yeah. Well,
00:29:44
Speaker
I think the antagonism, the mutual antagonism is there. I mean, I basically i agree with Erin that the pulling pigtails thing just like was a lot. And maybe it's because I was just so primed to see it it as a romance that I was just like,
00:29:57
Speaker
reading everything he did as- You secretly love her. As you secretly love her. um be Right, because of the setup. like Sometimes enemies to lovers, it' there's not that secret love thing, but it but in this case, that's just kind of how can I read it. yeah Yeah. Can I ask, do you think that our level of romancery, romanceology,
00:30:21
Speaker
hu in this case detracts from our ability to read maybe as intended because we're so attuned to those cues at this point. a So i I would go back to, I would circle back to the blue walls thing and that's this. We've we've pointed out that contemporary is harder to execute this trope in, right? Because we would not like characters that were like the historical ones where they like, I'm gonna cut your head off, you know what I mean? And I think that if he had not been aware of his feelings, like the blue wall is what is what shifted it out of that for me. Does that make sense? No, speak more. Okay, let me yeah elaborate. if If at the end of the book he was like, I can't believe I didn't know what I'm so sorry, that would have been solidly enemies to lovers, here flat out.
00:31:13
Speaker
That wouldn't have been pigtail pulling. That would have been, but you you were not a nice person. I'm glad you figured it out. Do you know what I mean? Because he expresses clearly that he's been in love with her the whole time, it becomes pigtail pulling and that's where it becomes more like, I don't know. I could see someone arguing for sparring partners or dis... I don't even know. It wouldn't it could be but dishonest beginnings. I think that the Enemies to Lovers fits fits this best better than the other ones. I just don't think it's the cleanest example is what I guess I'm trying to say. And it's because of the blue walls. Yeah. So the other thing that pulled me out of it a little bit is, you know, like Lucy calls all the things they do the games, right? Like they play the mirror game and they play the staring game. And then towards the end of the book, he's like, oh, we're playing the staring game now. I'm like, wait a minute.
00:32:05
Speaker
he also know he like He also knows what the names of the games are that you play. and then In the beginning, they call it that. like they do they and yeah so oh I thought it was just in her internal narration. I misread that. I think not all of them, but like she says it so that, oh, we're playing this the whatever game again or whatever. and He's like, I guess so or something in the beginning. like they so It's a thing. yeah Well, see, because that to me,
00:32:33
Speaker
leads to like, this is a level of like, of that's like mutual agreement that this is something we both call it. And that we both call it a game. Right? Also, switch kind of I feel like undermines the enemies a little bit.
00:32:49
Speaker
Well, but and it also explains why he's keeping track in his thing because he's like, does she hate me? Does she like me? Like, is this like, does she like to hate me? Like he explains why he said they're trying to figure it out, you know, or it, it explains why he's like, so blindsided when she gets so upset and starts crying because because he thinks because he thinks it's all a game. He thinks that they're playing together because they talk about things as games.
00:33:14
Speaker
Well, and when she when she gets the real date and he really thought that he thought that they mutually knew that he was the one who was going to be at that restaurant with her. Right. Yeah. like He was genuinely hurt. Yeah. That's where like I have to argue. but That's the whole point of this trope. It's not to make you feel comfortable in the beginning. That push pull of like, do I hate you? Do I like you? like That's supposed to be like that. That's why it's satisfying when they figure it out. Yeah.
00:33:37
Speaker
so anyway so That's why the pigtail pulling thing, like I get that that's that that might be a matter of taste, but it's it's baked into this. like They're not supposed to start this book out being like wonderful examples of humanity. This is them like being a little shitheads. Do you know what I mean? They're they're not supposed to be good. They're supposed to get good, but that all gets kind of thrown off course by the blue room. i have to I keep putting that little asterisk. Everything I say, you just have to remember asterisk blueberry. So questioning grid, do we not get the pigtail pulling from her because she's the POV character because I can see some of her reactions to their engagements as being like she she's the pa character she's narrating and she is coming into it like Holly mentioned earlier like if he were confused about her feelings like her narration is like she's confused about her feelings like right
00:34:29
Speaker
The reason that she's engaging in this is because she is drawn to him, but she's not consciously thinking it, so she's playing the games to antagonize some kind of a thing. So this is her pigtail pulling maybe? Except for, so question then, are we not getting that from her because she's the narrator or are we not getting that from her because she actually doesn't recognize her feelings or what?
00:34:54
Speaker
yeah so it's I think it's because of the POV. I was doing this because of the POV. Some of the things that she says to him in this book are there mean. like She's not nice to him at various points. Every single time things get a little bit bumpy and they don't know where that's at, she ends up calling the guy that she asked on a date. Even if it's professional for professional reasons, like she has to know how that's going to look. like She's not stupid. It's just that she's like,
00:35:20
Speaker
actively putting her head in the sand. She doesn't know how she feels. It's not comfortable. So she just blah. So yeah, I think it's the POV. It's kind of like this. One time my husband and I were talking about our budget for the year and I was like, you need to review the finances. And he was like, no, I completely trust your judgment. You know, go for it. And I was like, you're not understanding this. I go to the store and I make a bunch of purchases and in my head I'm like, well, I already thought about whether or not I should buy it. So I've already decided all my purchases are good purchases in my head because I made them. Do you know what I mean?
00:35:49
Speaker
But like if we sat down and looked, he'd be like, why did you spend an extra $200 at Target for no reason? and And then I'd be like, oh, well, because of this. And then he'd be like, that's not a good reason to spend $200 extra dollars at Target. Do you see what I mean? That's the thing with the POV. What we're getting is that she's like, well, I have a logical reason for all these decisions that I've made. And you as the reader have walked through it with me, so I am not pigtail pulling.
Examples and Conclusion of 'Enemies to Lovers' Trope
00:36:10
Speaker
She's absolutely pigtail pulling back. Yes.
00:36:13
Speaker
and I think if you reread it from with that perspective, some of the things that she says to him are so mean. I was just like, oh my God, like yeah he must have it really bad for you because she's not nice to him back. Yeah, there is mutual. It's mutual. It's just that I think because because we're overanalyzing everything he does because we don't have his POV, we're like, oh, it's more obvious. That's my personal opinion, but I'm not excusing pigtail pulling. I'm just saying that I think that it was definitely supposed to be more mutual, but we we have the explanations for her and we don't for him.
00:36:43
Speaker
yeah Also, there's like societal stuff about pixel pulling and yeah it's okay when boys do it and it's not okay when girls do it. and so It's like easier to see him doing it. It's okay when boys are professionally cutthroat and it's not okay when girls don't accept chronically late assignments coming in. it's yeah so okay We should talk about other examples then because this one was clearly not as cut of and dry as I thought it was going to be typing.
00:37:10
Speaker
and I am so proud of myself that I actually came with examples today. Good job, Ingrid. I actually had some. so i have I have a variety. so One of the ones that first came to head because it was one of the first ones that I kind of fell in love with when I was younger. This is an oldie. It's a throwback. It's a bodice ripper. It is The Raider by Jude Devereaux.
00:37:34
Speaker
So I don't remember that one but like in the in the book like he is he's a he's a good guy He's a rebel. It's like during like the Revolutionary War or whatever, right, but he's he's a Disguised himself. He's come back to his hometown and he makes himself really like he pads his clothes and he makes himself look really like ridiculous and like wearing like you know, lots of lace and stuff. Anyway, he makes himself look ridiculous. And so the heroine is like enemies with him, but then she's secretly meeting up with the raider, which is him in real life when he takes off all of his padding in his costume and stuff. And they like meet at night and stuff and start up a romance or whatever. But she's mortal enemies with the publicly presenting version of himself. And it's really funny. So there's that one. Another historical one that's more recent is Scandal of the Season by Adria Richards. And that one is one it's a little bit more one sided because
00:38:21
Speaker
She doesn't even know that they're enemies until he completely ruins her and destroys her reputation. But oops but he he is enemies with her father and uses her, destroys her reputation, sets her up as a mistress in his house. kind of Well, it looks like they're not. He's not like, you have to have sex with me, but he's like, you're going to move into my house with me.
00:38:41
Speaker
publicly and everyone's going to know that you're my like mistress and I'm going to ruin your life basically. And and that's what ends up happening. Yeah. But then the whole thing is like an examination of that. It's a really good book if you like thinking about social constructs. And the last one, well I have two. The last one that was like a really good example of like enemies to lovers and it's enemies to lovers like to the bitter end. They hate each other. They're like literally trying to kill each other is a called Keeper of the Light by Laura Strickland. she's It's a fantasy, mystical, historical book. They're enemies from different clans and they like really hate each other and they want to kill each other. so That's a pretty good example. and Then the last one, was it's it's actually a funny one, but it's real soft. like It's it's only only temporarily situationally enemies to lovers and that's Vampires Never Stay Died by Gloria Duke. and The only reason they're kind of unwilling enemies to lovers because she's a vampire slayer and he's a vampire.
00:39:33
Speaker
So it's one of those like where it softly fits the fits it but it's contemporary and that's why I think I think if it were but in the beginning when they're caught their co-workers at a restaurant and like she really doesn't like this guy like she thinks he's super gross like she hates him so I think those yeah like vampire hunter versus vampire with the baked in that that those are those are good usually if you can yeah keep it going anyway Holly what are yours Yeah. Okay. So my recommendations, I never miss an opportunity to talk about this book. It's a Heart of Blood and Ashes. by i mean say but I know I'm so predictable, but it's so good.
00:40:14
Speaker
It does sound like the ideal. Yeah. Well, it's it's a feuding family situation. Like her dad killed his parents. But now they're they have an arranged marriage or they're being forced into an arranged marriage for political reasons. But he.
00:40:33
Speaker
It's like, all right, I'll marry you. But I'm marrying you to destroy your dad. And I'm not doing it on the terms that we agreed to. I'm just gonna kidnap you and murder your brother in front of you. And let's go from there. So those ones where that's like, just how are they gonna come back from this is a yeah really fun fun to read yeah i will say the niggle there is that she's like well my brother sucked so thanks for doing me a solid
00:41:10
Speaker
but But like I mean what they really have to come back for is he has a lot of disdain for her and a lot of disdain for everything she represents because he's like a Horselord like out in the wilderness wears first and she's like a city princess and she's really weak have a mirroring recommendation if I continue. ah And ah so yeah so there's a lot of that going on where it's most of the enmity is on his side and she is a much more pragmatic kind of political person who recognizes the opportunity in front of her. So there's less mutual stabbing. Another example is The King's Man by Elizabeth Kingston.
00:41:56
Speaker
which is there on opposite sides of the war, ah the English versus the Welsh. right versus the welsh And in the 13th century, I want to say, I think so. Yeah, but he, he's an English soldier and she's a Welsh princess, we'll call, but also fights is kind of a leader of the rebellion. And he gets captured by her men and then she she's holding him for ransom but they're they're like actively trying to sabotage each other for like pretty much the whole book even after they're in love they are still politically on different sides of the situation so interesting
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. And then I also feel like the kingdom of dreams by Judith McNaught. yeah It's a really good example. And we talked about that on the podcast as part of our Duke off. And again, this is like a medieval feuding family situation, except in Scotland, you know, in the English king and Scotland is always a problem. Just like the English king in Wales is always a problem. And and it's, uh,
00:43:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's intense. Like, it's very intense. It's very intense. You know, her loyalty is torn between her husband and her family, and she thinks they're getting better. And then he kills her brother, except this time she's upset. She's not liking that other book where she's like, thanks, you did me a solid. um Yeah, it's, uh, it's really good. It's an intense ride. But ah we'll link to ah discussion of that one. Sure. show notes Oh man. and So I don't actually have an enemies to lovers tag, which maybe I should. But like I said before, I'm not really an enemies to lovers person. I usually see the conflict as something else. Like I know I've read like when I was doing my motorcycle club stuff, you know, there's invariably one in this series where like the MC person falls in love with like a cop.
00:43:57
Speaker
and there's conflict there or something like that but it's not it's kind of like the feuding families or the Romeo and Juliet feuding family situation where like the top level hates each other but the main characters don't right so so i don't know if i'm gonna have it gro But the mirror one that I was mentioning n when you were talking about was at the Millivane is Wed to the Barbarian by Keira Andrews. It's a duology. So the first one, Wed to the Barbarian ends with a cliffhanger, but that's also like a political marriage. The one guy is the son of like the
00:44:36
Speaker
He's like the city princess guy that you were talking about. The city prince, he was raised in luxury. The other guy is the barbarian, right? And he's the son of the chieftain of this island that had been like economically sanctioned basically by the continent kind of a thing. So there's like a revenge stuff. And of course they have this like kind of only one bed in their house situation. So they build some emotional intimacy that way tying into our lecture talks from this month. Go me.
00:45:05
Speaker
But it was really fun. It was like a fun read for just like, we hate each other, but we're like trying to make the best of the situation, except for not really, because there's backstabbing and all kinds of ridiculousity. Very over the top and dramatic in a way that it was like, I usually don't go for the high drama. So Holly, it sounds like most of your recommendations were very high drama. That's not usually my bailiwick, but it did go. Well, I think that's part of it is that for me, enemies to lovers is very high drama and the hating game Well, it's kind of a roller coasters. It's not actually that high drama. I don't feel like my other my next recommendation. This one came to mind because it was like also completely ridiculous. It's not all hymbos where capes by Sierra shell where it was like superhero versus super villain.
00:45:56
Speaker
Like, except for the superhero is like a himbo. And the supervillain doesn't actually have, like, the real true villain powers that the rest of his family does as, oh, there's some situational comedy, but they're definitely positioned oppositionally. So it's kind of, the way it kind of shakes out is not really enemies to lovers, but it starts off in an enemies to lovers way.
00:46:19
Speaker
Maybe we can make a Saturday, Sunday, 6th of additional recommendations of fun enemies to lovers or true enemies to lovers or we want to murder each other enemies to lovers but I just this is not really my trope because I get so frustrated with it so much or I don't feel like they're true enemies because it's one-sided or it's feuding families or it's actually a rivalry or something like that so it's more challenging for me to be like, yes. This one reader of high drama, historical romance and fantasy romance. Yeah, you're good. you're fit for this But you know, ah but only under those situations, like not even Regency. If they are both carrying swords, like yes, sorry. Regency enemies to lovers. I want the high drama medieval killer. That's what I want.
00:47:13
Speaker
Yeah, I was thinking about that when I read with the English king and the French king. Oh, yeah. But even that, I mean, they were kind of there were political things going on, but they were they weren't actively fighting against each other. yeah So so it's yeah, I'm just so picky. but On that note, Erin's pickiness for show notes, ah you can find them all at smutreport dot.com slash podcast. You can find all our other fun conversations there as well. If you like our content, please give us a follow or rate us on Spotify or Apple podcasts. You can find us on podcast places. Um, you can also find us on some social media places. We have profiles there. I think we're only active on blue sky these days, but but you know, that changes based on what shenanigans are happening. Yeah. And keep it smutty folks.