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The Smut Report talks Romantasy
96 Plays3 months ago
Holly, Erin, and Ingrid all read Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros. They talk about how horny this book is, whether it's YA, and what is Romantasy, actually.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction to Smut Report and Romanticy
00:00:00
Speaker
i'm doing I'm doing sparkle fingers for everybody who can't see me, who's just listening to me. So when I say, romanticy, please know that sparkle fingers are happening. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Smut Report! Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Smut Report podcast. I'm Holly. I'm Erin. And I'm Ingrid. And today, we're here to talk about romanticy. Um, and so what we did for today is we all read fourth wing because fourth of ring is like the romanticy book did that. And, um,
00:00:36
Speaker
a Court of Thorns and Roses, Accotar by
Exploring 'Fourth Wing' as a Romanticy Example
00:00:40
Speaker
Sarah J. Moss, the whole series. But we decided to read Fourth Wing for our romantic conversation because romanticism as a word is an idea of of defining a specific genre kind of popped into the general consciousness with the Goodweeds Choice Awards. ah last year for 2023. And fourth wing dominated that it won with 10 times as many votes as the first runner up. So I think fourth wing is ah kind of maybe the epitome of what romanticy is right now or what we think of as romanticy. I don't know. Anyway, so we're going to have a conversation about fourth wing and what it's doing. And then we also I think want to talk about what is romanticy
00:01:26
Speaker
more generally.
Summarizing and Analyzing 'Fourth Wing'
00:01:27
Speaker
So who wants to start with our one sentence summaries of fourth wing? I got i i got mine. But I always like to hear Aaron's first because it covers like everything. I was going to try and be really succinct this time. I feel like I can boil it down to, this is a heroine's journey, but make it hornier, but make it dragons, but make it college. Okay, is that your summary? Yeah. Okay. Erin, that was like succinct. Good job. I'm kind of disappointed, frankly. I was really hoping for like a three-minute i blow-by-blow semi-colons hyphen. I know, right? That's what I was going for. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. And we think we will get into this further, but I have a lot of feelings about fourth wing as I'm sure neither neither of you is surprised by.
00:02:17
Speaker
But as I was listening to it, I was like, very invested, but also, which I did not fully expect, but also I was like, this is so this is like the most basic heroines journey ever. Like, there is not a lot of other stuff going on here. But we can get into that after you guys give your want sentence summary. I can do mine. yeah go ahead and grade all right A mild child bookworm is entered into a dragon death school against her will by her mother where she falls in love with a rebel enemy and turns into a weak jointed badass.
00:02:53
Speaker
i do
00:02:56
Speaker
I'm so impressed. You guys did such a good job. um So I'm gonna fumble this because a full disclosure I read fourth wing like three months ago. Yeah, Holly read it when she started it. You know, when your library hold comes in, your library hold comes in, there's nothing you can do about it. deal yeah um so yeah Honestly, the two things... Do you remember her name? Violet. Okay, good. Violet. That's more than you sometimes do. Okay. Here's what I remember from the book in in one sentence, maybe three sentences. ah Violet is horny. She's in a stupid love triangle.
Critiquing 'Fourth Wing's' World and Setting
00:03:38
Speaker
and This school is like a really stupid way to train an army because
00:03:43
Speaker
you kill half your recruits. Like, what? And also the psychopaths win. wait yeah I was like, who wants a bunch of psychopaths running an army? That sounds like a terrible idea. It really does. But okay. But okay. I kept waiting for the moment where they were like, okay, so they're fine with you killing your classmates in the first year or whatever, right? Because you have to get through graduation. But then I was like, how are they repairing that? Because you're supposed to work as like a team right after that. So all these people who've been trying to kill you, like, do they go to like a retreat or something like, no, sorry, I tried to kill you last year. I swear to God, I'll save your life now.
00:04:24
Speaker
Right. That's the that right retreat. yeah Figure it out. and Figure it out, guys. That's wild. go boot like Go be magical cannon fodder, I guess. I don't know. I mean, that's basically what I boiled down to at the end of it. Well, I mean, to be fair, that is kind of the point, right? Of the whole thing is that things are not being run as they ought to be run. But yeah, so. Yeah. All right. So since I like to summarize books ah more than they probably should be, I will also provide a little bit more details to provide context to our further discussion of what's going on in this book. so
00:04:58
Speaker
Thanks, Erin. I appreciate that. Yeah, I got you guys. So this is a dystopian, alternate world. It's a kingdom. So there's an ongoing war, it's lasted for 600 years, and the adult children, so I think Violet's 20. So like you go to your college equivalent at this age, And these 20 year olds get to choose what they're going to do for the rest of their life. And so there are different choices and Violet had been training to be a scribe, but her mother, who's the commanding general, forces her to try to become a rider, dragon riders, right? And the whole thing is like being a dragon rider is the most dangerous thing that you can do. It's also the most prestigious, but the dragons might just eat you or light you on fire. So only the strongest can survive. So it starts with like,
00:05:51
Speaker
they have to take this test to even get to the school and a bunch of people fall off the bridge and die, and then it just continues from there. Whereas Ingrid was mentioning- And not just people slip off, but like some but other push each other off the bridge yeah because they can't- Parapet, it's a
Understanding the Parapet in 'Fourth Wing'
00:06:09
Speaker
parapet. yeah Also, by the way, it really bothered me because like the it opens right up and starts talking about this parapet, and I'm like, What the flip is a parapet? Cause I'm picturing it being like a ledge on a building and I'm like, there's not like a hallway underneath the parapet that you could just like walk through. Is this the point? Like I don't understand the parapet situation.
00:06:25
Speaker
And it turns out a parapet is just, it's a fucking ledge. It's just a ledge. like all right I had to look it up and find multiple pictures of like, okay, but what kind of parapet? Because it's like industrial parapets. And I'm like, what's the point of the parapet? Like, why are they walking on it? If it's, that's not the point. And I understand it was like, it's the first gauntlet or whatever, but I was like, could we, could you just, like, why couldn't it just be a very thin bridge? Like, why did it have to be a parapet? A parapet is a structural part of a building. I don't know why it bothered me. It just really did. Yeah. I mean, I kind of pictured it kind of like a flying buttress basically. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that's kind of what I pictured too, but then say flying buttress. Ingrid, it's not as cool if you would just say, they can just, they don't even say the parapet. Guys, this is my Aaron moment. It was my Aaron moment. They just kept saying the slippery parapet, the slippery parapet. And I was like, but a parapet is like, It's just a little, it's like a little lip, like a little, almost like a little gutter thing that sticks out in a building and it can be kind of bigger, it can be kind of small. But anyway, that's, it's not a huge deal. But this, it seemed like there was a bridge, because usually parapets have one side. Correct. Side, right? They have a wall next to them. I was envisioning, you know, what is, there's like gotta be a movie where they have an arch stone bridge, really long and really narrow, and they're like slipping and sliding as they cross.
00:07:40
Speaker
but What movie am I thinking of? I don't know, Erin. Something like that. I don't know. I'm picturing like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade in the cave, and there's the invisible bridge that he has to cross. Oh, yeah. faith Like, you know I was picturing like that over the chasm of death, except not in a cave, like with the wind and and stuff. Well, yeah. So but what I'm picturing, because like I looked it up, was that there had to be a back on it. So I'm sitting here like, why did you say parapet? Word choice wise, it just immediately kind of bugged me because I was like, but that's an architectural element. Do you know what that means? Do you think it means what I think it means? I think what we're gathering is that she does not know what a parapet is. I don't think she knows what a parapet is. Yeah, so anyway, it's fine. It was just a little moment, but I was starting the book and I was like, I'm not going to make it because per use, Ingrid started at 24 hours before I needed to have it done.
00:08:32
Speaker
And like I literally read five pages the night before the day before and then I read the whole thing in one day. So, but like that night I was like, I'm not going to make it because if I'm this hung up on one word, like how am I going to get to this book? But luckily I overcame. So um anyway, good
Competitive Dynamics in 'Fourth Wing'
00:08:47
Speaker
job. Moving on. They get across the non parapet parapet. and get into the college and it's a three year school. It's organized in typical fantasy fashion where the commanding officers are the third years and the first years are like vying for their positions and the second years are a combination of those two. So there are different command posts throughout the wing. And the wings are they're basically like houses that are competing against each other. we are yeah
00:09:18
Speaker
As you do, we're drawing parallels to similar books. Always a good idea in a school to like breed competition between houses. Great great way to just like build morale. and not breed sociopaths. Yeah. So, so there's not a lot of unique structure going on here in terms of how the fantasy dystopian, like war college is constructed. I mean, honestly, even if you've read Ender's game, like it's, there's not a lot of new information here. If you're not familiar with fantasy, read a few and you'll know exactly what we're talking about. I think also though, I texted so there's a moment when Violet is being forced to join this college and her sister comes in and her sister's a very notable writer and her brother also was a very notable writer but he's dead and her sister's like she can't do it she's going to die and and her mom's like no this must be done so then the sister takes her off and is like this is what you need to do to survive I'm gonna give you like a knockdown dirty survival guide right now in addition to some dragon scale armor
00:10:27
Speaker
and And then to end all of that, the sister goes, and whatever you do, stay away from Zayden Ryerson. And I texted Holly and Ingrid, and I was like, she's going to have sex with Zayden Ryerson, isn't she? Holly was like, Erin, have you ever read a romance novel before? And it's so great. It's even worse. It's not just stay away from Zaden Ryerson, it's make sure you find this other guy, Dane, what's his name, right? Her her best friend, Dane, is a second year in the college. Right. so Find him, stay away from him, and I was like, thank you for setting up the Love Triangle. There you go, the Love Triangle. It's so beautiful for me. yeah like
00:11:01
Speaker
It does not help that this is like, I literally just finished the ACOTAR series. So I'm like, all right, I know where this is going. Like, it was dead on. I mean, there's a lot of other stuff going on. This I also was texting and I was like, how many ups and downs are we gonna have? There's like four books worth of like, builds and conclusions to like the different drama
Narrative Style and Structure of 'Fourth Wing'
00:11:22
Speaker
points that we're having. And like, this is one school year, what the hell is going on here? So there's a lot of like, specific challenges that they have to get through. It's not just building up to one challenge or one moment. So there's a lot of action going on. Well, and that's I definitely want to talk more about that in the like when we later on when we're talking about romanticy as a subgenre or whatever, because I do think that that is a very distinctive feature of this subgenre. Interesting.
00:11:48
Speaker
I do. I think it's very specific and I will explain it more but because i because i I want to make sure we talk about fourth wing right now because there's more to unpack with that. But yeah, I do think that's something to pick up on. I can't wait to talk about romanticism. I know. but but but i But fourth wing. So fourth wing. Well, I was going to say, did you guys did I miss any relevant plot points that would be hard to pick up on later if we start digging in? i know I mean, I think the point of there's like these like repeated challenges, it kind of sums it up, right? It's like, you have to run the gauntlet. I think it's literally called the gauntlet, right? You have to run the gauntlet. And like that's like one challenge. And she has to like figure out how to do like cage matches and survive. They're not actually in cages. Sparing matches. Because you have to do your fight club thing and not get killed. And how how is she going to figure that out? And then you have to like run into the woods and get your dragon. And then you have to like go on your scouting mission or whatever. So the order is because it's fresh for me. So it's a parapet. So there's the big picture. So every day, once you cross the parapet, it's the daily classes, right? It's the sparring matches. It's the history classes. It's the battle briefs, et cetera, and so forth. but but So the phases of the book, I think, can be divided into the parapet a and the beginning. Then it's the but gauntlet. After the gauntlet is the... In my head, I'm calling it the dragon promenade. That sounds like a dance, but in fact, what it is... In fact, what it is, is that they line up all the dragons who are these murder dragons and you just basically walk seven feet apart from your classmates. And if the dragons look at you and they're like, I don't like the look of that one, they just light that one on fire, torch it immediately. So it's the dragon promenade and then it's the threshing. And then lastly, it's that
00:13:35
Speaker
challenge you have to describe the threshing well the thrust of the threshing is where they release all the first years in the woods like in this valley where they can't get out and they simultaneously all the dragons go out there i would say release the dragons but in this book the dragons are in charge like basically the dragons and the magic users kind of like It's a symbiotic relationship, but the people do not tell the dragons what to do. This is not like a dragon rider situation where you train the dragons. The dragons like agree to work with you and then burn everybody else up, basically. so You go in the woods and you like you have to know enough about dragons to know how to approach each different type of dragon politely, and then the dragons basically pick you. and you think You have to like use your judgment to connect to a dragon, but if you misread the situation, then they just torch you up and you're gone.
00:14:19
Speaker
So it's kind of one of those things. It kind of feels like ah like if you've ever felt like if you go to a school, like your first school dance and you're like, I have to read someone else's body language from across the room and decide whether or not this person would like to dance with me and then have the balls to go up and ask this person to dance with me in front of all their friends and then maybe get completely shut down and have my heart broken. That's what this is like only with death involved. Yeah. and the dragon gets on the people and And maybe the people you think are your friends are also sneaking up behind you to try to get a dance with the same person, yeah but with knives in your back. Yes. So the thrashing. So the dragon chooses, and as soon as the dragon chooses, then you can read the dragon's mind and vice versa, and you're like connected forever. and And because this is not fourth thing, if there's not more death involved, if the dragon dies, the human dies, right? But if the human dies, the dragon can go pick another human. So that's, that's the basic
Trials and Challenges in 'Fourth Wing'
00:15:12
Speaker
gist. And then after the threshing is like the last like final trial thing where they have, well, they have two, one is like the
00:15:19
Speaker
The younger group has to beat a challenge and they did like the scavenger hunt, which was hilarious. And then the last thing was the war quote war games, which is like the whole wing computes to win the war game. Yeah. Cause I thought the threshing was done and then I was like, sweet, we're finished. And then it was like, nope, just kidding. More deaths. So like that's like halfway through. Yeah. What is happening? So that's like, so there's, and so I think like the, that's like the basic like structure of the book is based on these different challenges, which is why it is so many ups and downs. But then on top of it, you have the added tension of the love triangle and the, you know, because of the the murderous nature of this book, like
00:15:59
Speaker
Everybody's trying to kill other people for various reasons. Like, are you the weakest link? You're a liability then. You're a risk. Someone's going to try to kill you. Are you super powerful? You're a liability then. Someone's going to try to kill you. I mean, like, somebody's trying to kill you all the time. It's just all the time.
Enjoyment and Critiques of 'Fourth Wing'
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah. So, uh, did we like it? Now we're just Holly read Iron Flame already too. So Holly, you have to do this one on its own merits. no Yeah, yeah. um Well, I liked it enough that I immediately read Iron Flame afterwards. So that's what I wanted to do, except for I can't get it. yeah
00:16:31
Speaker
oh I mean, what it's on a cliffhanger. Yeah, it ends on a cliffhanger. And like, I mean, it's pretty compelling. You know, it's just like, it it really draws you in. And yeah, with the cliffhanger structure thing, my sister sent me a podcast interview with Rebecca Yarrows, where she talked about the structure, and how she purposely did it this way to end it every moment has to end on a cliffhanger.
Romanticy Genre Characteristics
00:16:55
Speaker
And there's always like something else coming in, of course, you end with the biggest cliffhanger of all. And she wrote it specifically, she was like, yeah, it's because of TikTok and everybody has short attention spans. So I have to write a book that will hold your short attention span. And I was like, well, ah that's like pretty annoying. And it's it's way worse in Iron Flame. But um I'm like, that's pretty annoying and makes for kind of a structurally weird book. But it also kind of worked. So I was i went into it and I was like, first of all, I don't read multi-arc books. I don't. The only one that I will consistently recommend to people is the Hidden Legacy series by Elena Andrews. But I feel like I picked that one up more because it was urban fantasy than because I was specifically looking for a romance. Like if I want a romance, I don't want it to be dragged out. I quit reading that Janet Ivanovich series.
00:17:51
Speaker
after like the third book, because I was like, I honestly cannot be yanked around like this. For now, it's like 20 plus books. Yeah. um And she's still not gonna make a decision or like nothing is happening. I just that's not where I am in life. For me, it was a very high school reading approach, like Anne of Green Gables was probably my my intro to romance, you know, it's like just a little bit with Gilbert Blythe, oh my gosh, she has to be And then she like, you know, they go to college is like, no, you can't kiss another guy, you have to be with Gilbert Blythe, you know, and then finally, that happens, right? And it took three books to get there. And then they go off and have their happily ever after whatever.
00:18:31
Speaker
But I'm at a point in my life now where i'm i if I'm going into it for the romance feels, I don't want it to be drawn out like this. I think you kind of this is a whole mood and you have to be ready to invest in the long game for stories like this. So going into it, i was first of all, I was like, I don't want to deal with a cliffhanger. and and this like, odd again, off again, are they, aren't they gonna do it stuff. um That ended up turning out a little differently than I expected the relationship elements. But also, like I said, it was so narratively, it's pretty basic. Like, there's not a lot of unique storyline happening here in terms of plot and characterization, I don't think.
00:19:17
Speaker
It's a very basic heroine's journey. I think what it really has going for it is it has a really great voice and it's really exciting. And so the fact that it's like there's constant action and she's constantly going to die and who can she trust and who not and how is she going to prove that she's the clever one, like that is enough tension to keep her really interesting in addition to her voice being playful. Like she's fun to read. She's a little bit snarky. She's clever. She doesn't she's not particularly grating in the way that sometimes single POV heroines can be. So I thought it was fun. three Yeah, I will say I'm glad I read it. I thought it was really interesting. and I feel like I'm kind of going you know how I like
00:19:59
Speaker
hyperfixate on things and I read all of it and then i've done Holly triggered something in me and now I'm definitely like all into the romantic thing right now but the things that I liked I liked that I'm seeing a trend and it is just in this book where I liked that she very clearly has like Fay Ehlers-Danlos syndrome type of thing and I loved that I kind of was dreading her getting bonded with the dragon the dragon fixing it for her do you know what I mean and or like fixing her height or like I loved that she there were physical obstacles for her to overcome and that they didn't fix it with magic. like She has a disability. She has a disability. She has the basically the equivalent of a connective tissue disorder. So she has some kind of connective tissue disorder and it doesn't get fixed with magic. it's she so She has it, that's it. But in the beginning, it's like, oh, everyone kind of treats her like, oh, you know she's going to die. She's so fragile. And that the the hero, like his role in her transformation is that he's like, stop limiting yourself before you try. like you have You're going to have to
00:20:56
Speaker
Get stronger and try I love that that that's happening more and more especially in I consider this a young adult book I don't this is why a flat out. um I'll fight you on it later. It's why we can talk about the sex part Yeah, it's why a it's a hundred percent why and I actually think the sex part solidified to me that it was why a but I'll tell you about that later oh i can't so Yeah, it's YA. But I do love that this is a component in YA. Get on your own feet. Yes, this isn't going to get magically fixed for you. And it's especially not going to get magically fixed by a dude. like You're going to have to get strong. And I love that. And I love that his job was to like challenge her and motivate her and not look at her like a baby and that she saw it and she said it outright. Loved that part. Yeah. i mean And I thought that was a really interesting part of the love triangle, right? Is you have the two sides of the dark brooding enemy and the best friend. And the best friend
00:21:45
Speaker
wants to take care of her. He wants to protect her. And the dark brooding enemy is like, no, I'm gonna be hard on you. And I'm gonna beat the shit out of you. And that I mean, I guess I don't think he's wrong. But he, know you know, he doesn't go easy on her ever. But he is the one who's saying you can do it. But it's interesting, right? You guys, I don't find that unique at all. That's exactly what Connor did to Nevada in the original Nevada Baylor trilogy. I don't think it's unique, but I do think, so we're coming from, our millennial generation is coming from the little mermaid and stuff like that. We grew up with books where that wasn't as common and so, or in movies where hero heroines get rescued, even if they're strong heroines back in the day, they still got rescued to some degree. And what I like seeing is that I like seeing that the challenges aren't getting erased. It's it's just another nudge in the right direction, I think.
00:22:35
Speaker
And ah so I, you know, yes, Erin, I think you're right. Like it's, it is more common now, especially, but it doesn't mean that my little like Disney childhood heart doesn't leap seeing strong, strong heroines who are fighting their own battles. I liked that a lot. Um, and I liked, I, this is one thing I thought she did well was that I liked that the subplot, Erin, you know how you were talking about like how there were all these little bumps and stuff I could see early on. I was like, it's questioning the rule following. It's, I liked that, like from the very beginning, there's these nudges that there's going to be like some, that the black moment is going to be something about like those who follow the rules blindly and those who question the rules and I love that it had that like slow build of because the whole thing is like it wasn't just like the good guys are the ones who question the rules the bad guys are the ones who don't because it's not necessarily true right like some of the bad guys who flat out broke the rules get punished for it and And it's like, yeah, you fucked up. That's not cool. You can't like murder someone in their bedroom. It's against the Codex or whatever. Do you know what I mean? So I thought the examination was subtle and it was like kind of interesting because you could see it kind of play up and build. And then it was kind of like, oh, like this is going to be the this is going to be the problem. How's it going to play out? And I thought it was pretty good, honestly. Yeah.
00:23:42
Speaker
I mean, and and like going back to Aaron saying like, I think it does it well, but this whole question of questioning the rules and like, it I feel like again, it's just like Ender's game. It's like what's really going on with the battle school? So like not new and unique, but she did put a lot of different stuff together in one very readable package. Also, I don't know if you guys read the, you know, acknowledgments and stuff at the end, but the author and four of her six children all have connective tissue disorders. she said And I could see it and I was like, this is somebody who knows because she talks about like the how one of her skills, like the violets, like one of her strengths is that you have to learn how to like withstand pain. And she's like, I'm in pain every day, no problem. ah Yeah, so that's one of the things I i liked. I did dislike the YA thing. I'm just not, it felt really YA in some critical parts to me. And I was like, oh okay, like I'm too old. I'm
00:24:38
Speaker
I'm too old for this maybe, but it was good. I mean, it wasn't bad. i I get where you're coming from because I frankly agree with you. I think a lot of people will be like, no, there's a lot of on-page sex and she's so horny so that can't be YA. Although i have I have a friend who is a children's librarian. So while she was working on her master's degree, one of the things she studied was like, how books are categorized or how people make decisions about this and she sent me one of the texts that she was reading when we were talking about what's going on in YA or like what's appropriate ah quote appropriate for children and she's like you know this is talking about how sex and sexuality is something that
00:25:14
Speaker
teenagers are experiencing and pretending that it doesn't exist or showing different ways that it could exist is removing possible resources for them to come to terms with how how to process what's going on in their lives and be that like showing a good relationship or a bad relationship and like what the feelings are occurring, you know, from a bad experience versus a good experience. So I think that was a big thing for me too is that ultimately the tone of it was very YA. I mean, And they're basically in college. They're young college, too. I mean, like, young college. And the way that she was reacting to a lot of the information, maybe that's my issue with how, you know, like, it's like a mid-grade book. When I'm reading the mid-grade books to or with my kids, and I'm like, this is so predictable, but they don't, they haven't studied it yet. They haven't processed it yet. They don't understand how the story arcs work. The language is simpler, you know.
00:26:14
Speaker
So ya know, YA is like a bump up from that, but it's also a bump down in different dealing with some different things than adult fiction, and so the complexities of Violet's life extend like so far, but no farther. and i I would agree that that's yeah kind of a YA read. I mean, it's got themes of its journey of self-discovery. It's learning how and when to question authority. It's learning how to stand on your own two feet and think and and act independently and take care of yourself physically and like your wellbeing. All of these things are factors. it's young adult, it's just older young adult. But even the sex scenes for me, right, like, I'm sorry, I understand this was a grown woman who wrote this book, but especially that first sex scene, it it reads the way that like ah a young adult who's like super mega horny would want a sex scene to unfold.
00:27:03
Speaker
Personally, when I'm reading it, I'm like, I understand that he's real strong, but not any human in the history of human sexing has ever wanted to have an entire evening of sex up against every wall and and piece of furniture in the bedroom. Like you have a bed. They even picked the floor over the damn bed. I mean, it's just that was a very young adult sex scene to me because it was very much like how a teenager would imagine sex to be. not Really? And I get that it's fantasy. I'm not trying to like yuck anyone's yum here. It's just that when I read it, I was like, this is hardcore YA sex scene right here.
00:27:34
Speaker
You know? Yeah, well, I mean, and so the thing that like struck me really stuck with me the most is how horny this book is and not because there's a lot of sex in it, right? But there's not a lot of sex in it. ah Horny in a very YA kind of way where she's like, she's in all these situations, including dangerous situations. But she'll be she'll be like watching men fight and be like, look at him. like It's that kind of horniness where she's always, she's like so hyper aware of the possibility that sex might happen. Sex could happen. sarah happened and that well You're right, that is a yeah very YA early college.
00:28:14
Speaker
ha Just an undercurrent. There's the undercurrent of possibility. Even from the beginning, they're sitting there like oh like, when she goes up to Dane's room because her knee's all jacked up, the first thing that comes to mind is isn't like, oh, let's not get caught because it's against the rules. It's like, oh, people are going to think we're screwing because that happens a lot here. Do you know what I mean? The undercurrent definitely. The conversation she has with her sister at the beginning is like, 50% how to survive, but also like let me give you some sex advice, right? yeah That's true. well and all yeah like just But no condoms. Dragon skin armor. yeah No dragon skin condoms. You just have magical contraceptives at all times. And even the way that some of them talk about it, where they're like, oh, I could really use sex, right? Or, oh, I miss having sex. And I'm just like, guys, like, you're how, how old the longest you've gone without sex? How long? Like, you probably just started having sex a year ago. You don't miss having sex. You just started. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're not going through a five year drought.
00:29:12
Speaker
But like, but this is why there are moments where you're like, Oh, it's like this is because sometimes it felt like it wasn't a school because there's so much murdering and stuff. But like, at the same time, there are moments where you're just suddenly very aware of how young these people are. and And just like that, oh my god, they're like young teenagers, like they don't know what the hell they're doing. And so um this is so YA to me. It's not even funny. Of course, it could just be that we're jaded romance readers. And so we read a lot of like mature relationships where they're banging a lot and stuff. But I don't think I really do think that this is because when I compare it, like I said, I just read Akatar in less than a week. I'm bragging. It's it's happened. I bragged about it. I'm going to do it again.
00:29:52
Speaker
So, Akatar, the lead Pharah or whatever, she's a similar age to the heroine in this book. I mean, they're definitely in the same age bracket. I completely forgot for most of the time I was reading that she was that young. Like, completely forgot because the issues and the way that she's dealing with the issues are so different. it Just this one, and i I will say that I think and i when we do actually end up discussing ACOTAR, I had a thought because Erin and I discussed it on our family reunion because apparently we can't leave this stuff alone even when we're on vacation. um and I think some of the things that bugged Erin about ACOTAR is that this definitely felt like it was like
00:30:26
Speaker
the characters were acting in an age-appropriate way. You know what I mean? That's probably true. Like you expect to see in fourth wing, you expect to see characters of this age being horny, being impulsive, being, you know, like agonizing over stuff. The fact that she's like, I will never doubt you. And then she's like, I'm doubting you and we're over. Do you know what I mean? Like that's age appropriate for this. But when you do it and it feels like you're a full grown, like 30 year old adult, you're like, what the hell is the matter with you? And that's why I think Akatar was irritating for Erin. You can tell me if
Personal Preferences and Surprises in 'Fourth Wing'
00:30:57
Speaker
I'm wrong. And this one maybe wasn't as irritating, you know, because it's packaged differently. And then you're like, this doesn't feel right. And that's maybe what Erin was talking about. Yeah, I think that you have something there. Yeah. So that's one of the things I just liked is I just, you know, for me, I'm not super into YA. That wasn't really a very fun time in my life. And I don't really love reliving it just to, you know, personally, but this one was a well done YA, I would say so. Yeah.
00:31:19
Speaker
So can I tell you guys a small anecdote about this book? um So I have a friend of mine who doesn't read. And I know, I know. And I think he's like, it, you know, he's a little bit ashamed of it, you know, and we were talking and he knows I read a lot. But so the last book he read was The Hunger Games. Oh, 15 years ago. Okay. Jeez. Right. And so I recommended fourth wing to him before I had read it. Okay.
00:31:54
Speaker
And I was like, well, you know, I've heard about this book, Fourth Wing. It's you know kind of like Hunger Games with dragons, maybe you'd like it. And he recently, he and his wife went on vacation without their children. True luxury right there. um And he came back and he's like, Holly, I read Fourth Wing. And I was like, oh, what'd you think? He was like, it was so fun.
00:32:19
Speaker
And I was a little embarrassed because I was like, I'm sorry, I did not realize how horny this book was when I recommended it to you. I was like, yeah, are all romance novels like that? And I was like, well, kinda. Kinda. Kinda. No. Yeah. maybe um oh And then I told him not to bother with Iron Flame, but um he didn't listen to me. And he read it anyway. And he was like, Oh, yeah, you were right. But he his take was like, there's nowhere for the relationship to go. Like, oh you know, fourth wing, they they've solved their love triangle enemies to lovers problem. Like, where's the relationship gonna go now? And where it goes is
00:32:57
Speaker
ah Like stupidity basically Sounds right.
Romanticy's Appeal and Structure
00:33:01
Speaker
Anyway, but the point is that like, you know I feel like part of it is the fourth wing is appealing to like my mom and my friend the math professor who doesn't read books and also us. Yeah, I was gonna say it also felt like a book that would be very accessible to what I would call a beginner, like a beginner romance reader, a beginner fantasy reader, or just a somebody who doesn't read that much because of the voice, because it's exciting, because it's not super complicated, you don't have to know the tropes or anything like that. it's not
00:33:36
Speaker
It's not subverting tropes. It's just do with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely got that. Yeah. So should we talk about kind of romanticy, bigger picture, if like fourth wing is emblematic of romanticy? Yes, I think and what I was going to say earlier is, I mean, I think romanticy, I agree with what you said, Holly, in terms of romanticy really came into popular parlance and the news articles started pouring out and so on after fourth wing and like like you said, the Goodreads Choice Awards.
00:34:10
Speaker
added a romanticy category for the 2023 awards that had not previously existed. um But the term has been around for longer. I think it's another one of those tick tock things where, you know, Akatar was the really big one that I know has been in the conversation a lot. And then even Jennifer Armentrout, who's been around for a long time. Right. And I feel like falls into this category and and like um the Grisha verse books by Leigh Bardugo. Shadow and Bone. they They made a they made a Netflix series out of it. So it's not like it's I think the problem with the articles and this is always the case in romance is like look at this author doing something brand new and then everybody who's been here for a minute is like
00:34:54
Speaker
Hey now. Did you do any research? Right. For me, I think the interesting thing about romanticy in particular, and I can't wait to see what you guys have to add or say as well, is if we're talking about subgenre in terms of reader contract and what the reader can expect. I feel like romanticy in particular is trying to sell something different than fantasy romance. And that is what is tapping into the S.J. Moss and the Rebecca Yaros and the Jennifer Armentrout. I actually went through the first eight books in the Goodreads Choice Awards from last year.
00:35:39
Speaker
and looked up like what we're dealing with here. And five of them, five out of eight are multi-book arcs featuring the same couple or like question of who is the end game couple. That's always coming up in the S.J. Moss books, right? That ah these are like long stories with lots of ups and downs that are following one couple. They're not single titles or series with one romance per book. And that is a different vibe than I would say like fantasy romances more broadly. Yeah. Well, so to me, you know, if you define romanticy as Sarah J. Moss and Rebecca Yarrows and Jennifer Armantrout and maybe Libra Dugo, then to me, that is like single POV, not like other girls heroines journey where she is figuring out what her secret magic is and how to use it in the world.
00:36:36
Speaker
Okay, but interestingly, like i mean that is Nevada Baylor in the Hidden Legacy trilogy, but I don't think I'd put Hidden Legacy in the romanticy category. Okay, I have a book club friend who writes fantasy romance, and she would not say that she writes romanticy. Hers is Gaslamp Fantasy. Her name is Jen Linning, shout out. She was really excited when I told her that we were going to talk about romanticy at 4-3am, and she gave me some recommendations to read. Sorry, I didn't get the rhythm all because i have I'm way behind on my reading.
00:37:11
Speaker
oh But they were good recommendations and very spot on for what I think people are considering romanticy. And she had also pointed out while we were talking that the books that people in the fantasy romance world are categorizing as romanticy also include sort of like the epic fantasy roots and different worlds, like it's not set in Gaslamp, London, her or in the case of Nevada Baylor, it's not set in AU, Houston. It's an alternative world that's been created that has its own, you know, government structure and magical fantasy world. Okay, high fantasy. Yeah, basically. Yeah. So it leans more into the high fantasy roots than the other ah speculative options. And thankfully, Holly just published our Speculative for speculative Fiction Primer, so we can refer back to that.
00:38:01
Speaker
But and so interestingly, so I like put out a little thing on blue sky being like, okay, like, for my Sandia, what's romanticy? The only person who responded is Bree Bridges, who is 50% of Kit Rocha. And she defines not their dystopian stuff, but their fantasy stuff. She's like, Oh, yeah, that's definitely romanticy. There, it's just like straight up erotic romance in a fantasy world. Um, and it's definitely romance, but she's like, Oh yeah, like I definitely, I write romanticy. And the question for her is the books that are not fan, like all fantasy romance is romanticy, but all romantic fantasy is not romanticy. And that is the line for her is like the fantasy books that have some romance subplots, but maybe don't have the happy ending.
00:38:52
Speaker
I completely agree with that. I mean technically, Fourth Wing or Akatar itself, like they well I guess Akatar itself does, it just changes. But Fourth Wing does not have a happy ending. It has a cliffhanger ending. But at the relationship is pretty established by the end of Fourth Wing. so i so how does you know i guess that is Well, so this is what I think. So, you know how I was, I just said earlier that I think length is actually like a critical feature to this specific sub genre. And this is where I think that that's important because I think that, you know how it's romanticy, right? It's romance and fantasy. What I was thinking before we came on the podcast and what you said Holly is I'm really chewing on that because I think it's like really that's
00:39:35
Speaker
This is why I love talking to authors because they sit and think about this stuff so much. They just chew on it. But um I was sitting here and I was thinking there is a readership that loves long, epic sagas. I mean, think Lord of the Rings even. I mean, this is not like a new thing. They they don't want it short and sweet. They want the sweeping thing. they want it to develop over time and and one thing I'm seeing is that and I was gonna this is gonna be this was gonna be my earth shattering not really actually but it was gonna be one of my big points in evaluating Akatar I think that one of the features of this is that it's so long these series and that the romanticy shifts and it becomes no longer about the romance like it shifts
00:40:15
Speaker
into something bigger than the romance because the plot thickens do you know what i mean it happens in akatar as well most of the time when we look at traditional romance first like primarily romance fantasy books right if there's multiple books in the series it's one of two things it's either that the romance itself between the two main characters or if there's a trouble or whatever you know what i mean like but the primary romance either shifts and develops because of things intervening, like messing with their relationship over the course of the series, which is rare because usually they're very, you know, longer series, or two, that it starts to integrate like a different character for every book. Do you know what I mean? So the bigger plot is, is the overarching theme, and then there's a group of five friends, and then the five books are each of their romances, right? Those are the kind of the way that it seems to be for romance.
00:41:00
Speaker
in this romanticy genre, it's romanticy because it starts with the romance, but it doesn't necessarily mean it ends with it. hu it evolved as it goes on. So in Akatar, the I mean the books thus far have primarily been about Rhysand or whatever and Pharah, right? But at a certain point it stops because their relationship is established and it moves on to other characters. My prediction, having only read one fourth wing, is that their relationship is somewhat established, something's going to mess with it from outside, and as the series develops I'm betting that it shifts into something that's more about the fantasy than about the romance.
00:41:33
Speaker
Well, they've developed so much of a, there is a lot going on in this world, and it starts from the word go, where it becomes, as Ingrid was saying, there are lots of moments ah pebbled in or whatever, breadcrumbs dropped, to indicate that there is enough going on that it would be very reasonable.
Transition from Romance to Broader Narratives
00:41:52
Speaker
for these characters to question the authority or question the rules or what is actually happening here. And as we continue, it becomes more and more clear that all is not well in the state of Denmark, as it were, until ah finally we come to the climactic battle.
00:42:08
Speaker
So now we're at a point at the end of this book where basically everything has fallen apart and now it is a matter of fixing the government, basically. Fixing the problem that the government has failed to fix or fixing the problem that is the current leadership um who is not taking care of the world in the way that they say that they are taking care of the world. so that is a much more expansive issue than just like what's going on in my relationship and like, am I going to survive school? um So that tracks. I'm saying that tracks, I guess. yeah and i I'm not saying it's a rule. I'm saying that I what I'm seeing in going down my rabbit hole is that it's kind of a feature. So there was another, there's another series that I read that, I mean, I've talked about it before gobs of times. so
00:42:54
Speaker
the author K.L. Breen. She has done series like this as well. I just didn't pick up on it at the time because I was like, oh, you know, like this is so unique. And it is. But um she has the demigods of San Francisco series. It starts out very similar. It has the young woman who doesn't know who she is. And then she's got this mentor who turns into this like challenger slash love interest. Same thing. Then we have the magical midlife series that she has, same thing. We've got her coming in. Once their relationship is established, it just shifts to something else. The series doesn't stop. It just keeps going and it shifts into something else. So I'm seeing that that's kind of like, and and readers who like that really like that. And readers who are like, ah, I'm more in it for the romance. They tend to stop, I think after, you know, maybe they don't keep reading. Yeah, it's interesting. So I'm thinking about one of the things that I read is the Scala Man's trilogy by Naomi Novak, which is like, it's magic school.
00:43:49
Speaker
it's it And it's definitely YA because they're in high school. And book one is telegraphed very clearly as a romance, the setup between her and I guess it's kind of an enemies to lovers type thing in magic school. But the second and especially the third book are like Ingrid's, they're much more interested in the bigger fantasy problem of what's going on. And the main character, the heroine, the love interest is still important to that. But their relationship is much less important. I mean, and so it kind of even goes in the opposite way where their relationship becomes untangled a little bit, like the first book ends up with them together. And then like, all this other stuff is going on that makes
00:44:34
Speaker
their relationship secondary to the bigger fantasy plot. um And ah like if you look on the Goodreads reviews, of especially the third book, ah or like there are many people who are just like angry because they feel like the romance got done dirty. I would say it's an ambiguous HEA at the end. Oh, interesting. But it's like Ingrid said, where it's like the romance kind of becomes much less of the point as the world gets a lot bigger. I think that's a choice, though. Well, it is a choice.
00:45:06
Speaker
I think one thing I will say that bothers me that um I think if I think I can see this being like a I'm probably going to dig into it. I'm not sure I because there are things I love about it, right? I love a good long series because I read so darn fast that it's sad for me when it ends. Love that. What I don't love is that so we fall in love with these heroes and it tends to be the hero not the heroine who goes through it like a personality transplant after the relationship is established. And like don't I liked him the way he was, you know what I mean? like And all of a sudden he's a big pile of mush who will like doesn't have those like that shiny backbone and he's just it just they completely change. And I'm like, where did you go? And they keep talking about how like, oh, he's so scary. And it's like, well, not anymore. He's a kid.
00:45:48
Speaker
Now he's a cinnamon roll. Now he's a cinnamon roll. That is a really interesting point and I wonder how that's- well Holly could tell us a little bit about how that might pan out but we won't ask her to spoil Iron Flame for all of you listeners. So a lot of what is driving the romance and the plot in this book, Fourth Wing, is that Zayden is an opaque character, and Zayden's father was killed as a traitor, and Violet's mother is the one who issued that order. um Later on, we learned that there's even more between Zayden and Violet's mother that complicates that relationship further. but
00:46:25
Speaker
There is a reason that her sister said stay away from this guy because to everyone, he has every reason to want her dead for revenge, right? And it becomes very clear to the reader, she's a little bit slower in the upper takes, she being violent, that if he was going to kill her, he would have done it already.
Character Complexity in 'Fourth Wing'
00:46:44
Speaker
So he's obviously in this relationship for other reasons that she's not quite picking up on. But he is still so opaque that we're never 100% sure. And he's over here saying, I'm dark, I'm darkness. Like his superpower is shadows. He can control shadows. Because once you get a dragon, you also get magical powers. And so he is this like mysterious figure. So as part of the climactic moment and the battle that happens, like,
00:47:14
Speaker
his final secrets, maybe, there's maybe a little question mark there, are revealed, and that makes Violet question things as well. But I don't see him suddenly shifting to like a very forthcoming person. like He fell for her first, he's always been soft for her, and that manifested him pushing her. Which her all you want in a big scary romance, you know? Yes!
00:47:38
Speaker
But so i I don't see that shifting. I think that both of these factors, like the relationship detangling or they the previously mysterious heroes suddenly changing because, oh, now he's found love, and so like that fixed all of his trauma. like that's that's not That's just not thoughtfully considered. I think what I would say is an example of maybe what really works, and if we want to throw this in romanticy or not, I guess you can choose. I don't really care. about arguing it is if we're going back to the Nevada Baylor trilogy, I wouldn't say that it happens in her sister's trilogy. So right now, Hidden let a Legacy is six books. It's three for one sister and three for the other. I don't think they're going to continue it, but I would be happy if they did. the But for Nevada, like she's the typical heroine's journey. She thinks she has no power and it's brought to light that she does. Connor
00:48:29
Speaker
is like absolutely terrifying because his powers are so immense that everyone is afraid of him. And the first book ends on a bit of a cliffhanger. She's like, I'm pretty sure you're a psychopath, so I don't know if I want to hang out with you. And then they get but brought back together for another mystery and it continues in the second book, but he doesn't, I mean he's definitely in love with her, but like his personality doesn't change and like they continue being the same team they were to solve the mystery in the first book. And like they have arguments about like what to choose or what to do, but it's it sounds like it's just maybe an author choice issue or like a like successive choice issue.
00:49:09
Speaker
that authors are doing more than a particular romanticy issue where, you know, it there are ways to do it and make it work. I mean, what is that one Nora? rob She's it's J.D. Robb, the J.D. Robb in Death Series, right? Where it's like the same couple and they're on like 50 books, too. um And they're an established couple, but it's still engaging to people. And I know that's that's tapping into a slightly different thing. like That's more of a thriller yeah with less romance. But I think there are ways that authors can do and have done it successfully. um Maybe that's more the issue than a genre-specific quibble. Does that make sense? Yeah. There are so many people writing so many books. Right. It's true. that it's hard you can't And editors are tired.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, okay. So to bring this back to the bigger question that at the bigger or bigger discussion is here's my question for you is if I say, I want to read a romantic say book, if you are trying to uphold your contract as reviewers who recommend books, what kind of book are you going to give me? Are you going to give me a new adult heroines journey book? Or are you going to give me a fantasy romance or like, Like, what are the people asking for when they're saying, give me more romance? That's a C. Yeah. I feel like they're asking for something like Akatar. I feel like they're not asking for, this is what we were doing, our recommendations for one of our winners for the Romancing the Vote auction.
Recommending Romanticy and Reader Expectations
00:50:35
Speaker
and It was very clear that like this reader's favorites were kind of in this romanticy zone. But ah more on the urban fantasy side, but yeah. I mean, science fiction fantasy is definitely where where they were coming from. So there was some wiggle room for me, but I was like, I don't have enough reading experience to recommend more romanticy than like ACOTAR or like mining other friends for information because I, this is not my reading wheelhouse, like I could do some science fiction, I could do some that. So I guess that's something that I want to dig into a little better, but I would feel like I can't recommend anything to you because ah unless you ah you haven't read fourth wing or a guitar or
00:51:21
Speaker
I haven't even read Jennifer Armentrout, so I could say, well, Jennifer Armentrout is a popular choice. I could go with Nalini Singh and the Angels series. But even that, that's an interesting series. It vibes a lot. Erin's talking about guilt hunters, by the way. The Angels series. People might not know what that means. When I called my husband. i give I leave books on his nightstand and then he just reads them. So he's read all of the Nalini's same books. Which one would you choose for like a reader who reads this kind of books? Because he is also a science fiction fantasy reader.
00:51:56
Speaker
It's like, I don't know what I would choose. So i that, but even that, like that's that's more urban fantasy. It's epic urban fantasy, but it's not like an alternative world where, and she's a badass already. like That's not one where she's figuring out her powers, like Nevada Baylor. So that's a really tricky question, I think, if you don't already have, if this isn't already your wheelhouse. Ingrid, I guess you can answer the question too. What would you do? I mean, you're bringing up a lot of points that I would bring up. it's it's It's difficult. I think if I, like going back to Holly's original question, which was I think like, what would you recommend, right? So if someone says they like romanticy, having read a bunch now, because I think before I probably would have recommended more of just like the short vignettes, but now I think I would recommend something that was more of a saga.
00:52:38
Speaker
I actually did take some time and I highly recommend if people like fantasy romance or romanticy to look at the fantasy romance group on Reddit just to give a shout out. i what i' When I've been reading there, one of the things, the threads I've been seeing of frustration is that a lot of people find romanticy through Akatar or Fourth Wing and they only want books that are just like that. You know what I mean? And there are a lot of people who've been reading this for a long time and are like, dude, I just, I just don't love those two books. And I want, they want recommendations, but everyone's using those as like the bastion of comparison. Oh, you like that? Oh, yeah if you like fourth wing, you'll like this. Well, what if you don't like fourth wing or ACOTAR when they're all being compared to fourth wing or ACOTAR? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I think it's, it's an interesting time to be reading these books. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, I feel like, like the world of fantasy romance is vast and yes you know, uh, like smart
Historical Context and Evolution of Romanticy
00:53:30
Speaker
bitches.
00:53:30
Speaker
Sometimes highlights older books and um they they call them they refer to them as retcon romanticies because like there's a huge boom in fantasy romance 20 years ago, right? and there are just these like they're single tighter romances, but they're door stoppers because it used to be that you could write really big books um and still get them published. Well, I think the other thing with fantasy that we haven't acknowledged yet that we probably should, sorry to interrupt you and I will let you continue, is it is normal for a fan, it is normal for a romance novel, like a single title romance to be 384 pages. And I learned that that is because of binders and how they cut pages. But but for fantasies, it's normal because of the world building for them to be 500 plus pages. So it is normal for a fantasy longer. Anyway, please continue.
00:54:18
Speaker
Oh, yeah, but that you know, there were all of these books 20 years ago that are just romance books, but are, you know, like, Sword and Shield in the in the magic realm. And they're very different from, you know, I feel like Akatar and Rebecca Yaros are tapping way more into the dystopian way trend from like 15 to 20 years ago, like Hunger Games and Divergent and Uglies and those books, whereas there were and Um, even earlier, like Anne McCaffrey and Mercedes Lackey, for example, were writing fantasy novels that often had heavy romance stories in them, or even could be called romances, you know, depends on the book. And I feel like those are two like very different kinds of vibes or sources that we're getting into like today's
00:55:10
Speaker
romanticy. And so I think Ingrid's point is right is that there are some people who are coming into it and they're like, Oh, no, I just want the heroine's journey single point of view. And like, I'm just starting to read these and these are all new and exciting. And there are people who are like, well, like, I've been reading in McCaffrey since I was 10 years old. And I want something more like that. That's just that's like a big epic romance in a big epic fantasy, but that isn't tied into this like single POV hero and journey thing. Because honestly, honestly, if that's what people like, there are single POV, young adult style, heroine books, Journey of Discovery that aren't actually fantasy. Do you know what I mean? That have a very similar vibe. And so I, it would be interesting to look at that Venn diagram of romantic fantasy and romantic fantasy. And I'm sure it's just one of those like bubble maps of overlaps and stuff like that, which I mean, let's be real, that's book recommendations in a nutshell.
00:56:07
Speaker
But I think people, I think it's kind of like a boom right now and it'll be interesting to to see how people move out of, you know, like find the next thing because um it might be that that that that single POV is what they like, or it might be that they're gonna move into, right into the contemporary rom com space. Yeah, like is it like they're gonna move into Emily Henry, instead of moving into merage smut like yeah mermaids but yeah so you yeah that's that's it's It's very interesting and i'm I'm very curious about it. And that's obviously why I'm thanks to Holly hyperfixating on this
Managing Disbelief in Fantasy
00:56:41
Speaker
right now. But um yeah, I have this really funny quote, though, Aaron, I thought about you and I saved it just for the podcast because I wanted
00:56:48
Speaker
to tell you. So, um, because when we were texting back and forth about fourth wing or whatever, and you'd be like, Oh my gosh. And you know, we always talk, I always joke around it with Aaron about willing suspension of disbelief. How sometimes you just have to be like, okay, we know that this isn't likely, like you're so supposed to like, just put a pin in it and ignore it and keep going. And Aaron's like, but I can't. So this is from the book, whispers of the deep by Emma Ham, which is romantic fantasy or fantasy romance. about merpeople. I haven't read it. Put a big asterisk there. But it was up on when I was doing my research for this podcast. It was up on fantasy romance and I saw it and I was like, I have to read this to Erin. So it's the forward for that book from the author. Okay? The author. Do not try this at home. It's entirely made up and honestly probably impossible. Please suspend your disbelief for this monster fucker book. It's a book about fucking mermen. Let's not get into a scientific conversation about whether the Benz would happen or if she could die doing half the stuff she does. Okay? Okay. Smooches. That's the forward.
00:57:46
Speaker
I would worry about getting bent honestly. I'm like, you can't go down this. That was actually when I was reading Catch and Release, it was like, that was someone by Isabel Murray. Wait, is that? This is Emma Hamm. This is Emma Hamm, yeah. Isabel Murray. It's a merman. They can't talk to each other. He's like, am I going to be able to breathe underwater? I guess I don't know. Okay, we're just gonna go. You know what I mean? But it's like when we're reading because this because fourth s thing had so many moments where I was like, I mean, she's got a connective tissue disorder. Like you can only do so much strength training for that. Like with hand-to-hand combat, she's still gonna have issues or like she's super short and she has the biggest dragon. You can't grow longer legs. You know what I mean? So I was laughing about it because I was waiting and I was waiting the whole time for Erin to be like, that
YA Behaviors and Future Recommendations
00:58:31
Speaker
just wouldn't happen. And then you didn't do it. So my quote wasn't as good because I was like, I was gonna whip that out for my evidence. but
00:58:38
Speaker
Oh man, no, the ones that got, I got hung up on her. It's funny that you said, Ingrid, that this is a very YA problem because I got very hung up on how she was like, I love you. I don't care what you say. Anything is fine. I trust you. And then she, find he's like, I have secrets. You don't know about it. She's like, it doesn't matter. And then you get to the end and she's like, it fucking matters. How dare you? I was just like, uh-uh.
00:59:05
Speaker
Well, and then the dissonance, right? When Liam, when she's like, oh my gosh, I have so many regrets about questioning my friendship with Liam because we have all this evidence that he was a great friend and she like literally calls it out like, oh, I regret questioning his friendship. And then she turns around and she's like, but you, I'm still questioning you, but this person that I have the most intimate relationship with ever, but it fits because it's YA. So you can be like, all right, well, she's just kind of figuring out life right now. Like, I thought we were doing okay, but no, she turned stupid. It didn't last as long as I thought it was going to. She started processing it faster than I expected. I expected it to last all the way into the next book. but So I have another book that was recommended that's similar called When the Moon Hatched that I'm trying to start and it's like really thick and I'm kind of excited about it. but um That's one that Jen recommended to me as well.
00:59:51
Speaker
Correct. So I'm like, all right, maybe I'll try that one to keep my romanticy thing going. But you know, with these cliffhangers, you just can't leave it. So I don't know. On that note, should we wrap it up? Oh, I suppose. Do you guys have anything final words to say? and words of wisdom. Yeah, I think the question mark is it's the romantic conversation is interesting because I remember seeing a tweet post something from Katie Robert a while ago saying it's neon gods, right? Holly read it is the one that's like so hot on tiktok right now and it started out as like whatever it is just like paranormal sort of fantasy with gods. But this whole romantic thing exploded and they pub they promoted one of the more recent releases as romanticy and it didn't
01:00:36
Speaker
like, impact sales the way that I guess they were. This is what she, it wasn't as long a tweet as this, but it was basically like, nobody knows what's going on here because they
Marketing and Discovering Romanticy
01:00:45
Speaker
promoted my book, my most recent releases, romanticy and like, what even is that? Like, yeah, I mean, she was reading Katie Robert or not. Yeah, I mean, she, there are erotic romances with like, kind of a fantasy background, but they're, they're Greek myth retellings. Reading the the fantasy romance thread, obviously there's a lot of of Sarah J Maas and there's, you know, the fourth wing books, but also there's and a Nalini Singh is on there. Yeah, Nalini Singh. Yeah, there's a lot of like for people who read romance, there are a lot of names on here that are that are, I mean, they're recognizable and it's not so I yeah, I think I'll be curious to see how it unfolds because I think a lot of the people who find this I mean, there have been people that I know who found our blog
01:01:29
Speaker
because of ACOTAR, looking for ACOTAR on there, and we're curious what we thought about it. and I was like, well, we haven't reviewed it yet. so Yeah, because I DNF'd it. Holly DNF'd it. read the first book quit. I don't even want to open this can of worms. I guess angry you're up. Luckily for you all, i i read the whole I read the whole series in less than a week. and Again, I'm bragging about that. That's shameless bragging. I'm very proud of myself. Also, my eyes didn't feel right for like three days afterwards. but I'm already working on a very in-depth analysis of Akatar and the premise is going to be that it is in fact smut adjacent because it is fantasy or it is romanticy and that I believe some romanticy is in fact smut adjacent and not smut and that if you go into it thinking it's smut, you're probably not gonna like it. I like that. Can't wait to talk about that. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, on that note. Well, do we have recommendations in this category then?
01:02:23
Speaker
Well, here's the thing, are we recommending like fantasy romance? Are we recommending from fantasy? And I think you kind of have to do both, right? So like, if you love the epic saga, then yeah, you should probably read Akatar. If you like the epic saga, read the demigods of San Francisco, read, you know, like, KF Breen or whatever, and the magical midlife crisis, if you like older characters, those are books that have that same thing where it starts off with the romance, and then it kind of shifts into something, some saga. Do you know what I mean? That's that. If you don't like that, then there are these other books that you might like better, which are like, that are encapsulated in one book is what I'm trying to think or like a three book series, not a saga. hu Well, I will never give up an opportunity to recommend A Heart of Blood and Ashes by Milla Vane because that book is fucking awesome.
Recommendations for Fantasy and Sci-Fi Romance
01:03:14
Speaker
And it's hot high fantasy romance. That's the one with zombie dinosaurs. zombie And it's got zombie dinosaurs. And it's enemies to lovers. But it's called Rogofanfic. This is what it is. Oh. But what's what's that book that you guys liked so much that I didn't like that you guys that the cover just changed? Oh, the one that I texted you, the new cover of, the Cressly Cole. I thought you liked that book. Oh, A Hunger Like No Other. A Hunger Like No Other. wouldn Would that be an applicable recommendation for people who wanted a shorter, like more encapsulated version of this kind of vibe? Well, I think that's a big... They're going through a whole thing because of the convergence or whatever the heck that's called, but it has a single romance. Yeah, that's like I feel like a classic romance fantasy series, right? Where each book is about a different couple, but there's like the whole arc. Our overarching theme. Which is The Immortals After Dark.
01:04:04
Speaker
by Presley Cole. It's definitely old school. But. Yeah. And I could say Guildhunter by Nalini Singh. I don't know that I could recommend a lot of other stuff. And the other thing is like, I just read a couple science fiction ones. I just read One Winter's Orbit by Everina Maxwell. And it was, I don't know if it won, but it was definitely nominated for awards when it came out a couple years ago. And that was like really fun. And I read, I finally read Polaris Rising or the comor Consortium Rebellion trilogy by Jesse Mihalik. And that is like each book follows a sister, but it's also kind of following a particular ah political, it would fall under, it's it's like space opera, but falls under like military sci-fi subcategory, because it's all like political and military intrigue.
01:04:50
Speaker
Those were really fun, but that's science fiction. That's not fantasy. you know like yeah Most of my fantasy reads are like, well, now that I've been digging into Omegaverse, I could recommend yeah no ridiculous Omegaverse stuff. like that's a holder but like you know It's like Shifters. i have it's a lot more I have a lot more paranormal romance than like epic fantasy fae kind of recommendations. and That's not to say I don't have some of my TBR, I just haven't. yeah um so like maybe bitter medicine could be a good choice for somebody who has read some romanticy and wants to kind of branch out away from the single POV. But you know, it's because it's got like, it's got fairies and like really great world building, good magic systems.
01:05:36
Speaker
There are, yeah, it's, I mean, I've traditionally read more of like the sweet witchy kind of man's points, do you know what I mean?
Sweet Witchy Romance and Preview of Next Episode
01:05:43
Speaker
Where it's like, you know, it's more earthy kind of than like high fe paranormal kind of stuff. And I do think that's a very different vibe. There's some on the blog though that I've read that are kind of more witchy ones and they're sweet, but they're definitely not like, you know, vengeance and power. Yeah, which I think these tend to have more of that kind of vibe. Maybe we'll talk about, I feel like we we talked about maybe wanting to have a whole separate call about the sweet witchy romances. Oh yeah, we were going to do that later this year. So we'll come back to those. So anyway, it's a very interesting thing happening, these these romantic see books, I'm curious. yeah So what are we talking about next time? Do we know?
01:06:24
Speaker
maybe Well, it was supposed to be Ingrid and Flix. I did Colby. That little three book. Oh, into the wind. We were going to read into the wind together. Oh yeah, we were going to reread Erin and I's first romance. Oh, we should do that. All right, then I guess the next podcast we will be discussing the Into the Wind, Song of the Sea, Weather, the Storm like throwback YA romance before YA was a fake trilogy ah that Ingrid and Erin, that's me, read as teenagers. Wish us luck.
01:07:04
Speaker
And as always, you can catch our show notes and all our other podcasts at smutreport.com slash podcast. If you want to try and catch us on the socials, you're more than welcome to, but we don't necessarily promise to be there. Our handle at everywhere is at smutreport. And if you ever really want to talk to us, you can catch us on the blog at smutreport.com. We do respond to our email and comments. so Sometimes slowly, but we do respond. We do respond. So that's the best place to find us. If you have any suggestions for us, we'd love to hear them. And until then, keep it smutty, folks.