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Hoedown Showdown: Westerns from the 90s
67 Plays10 days ago
It's time for a Hoedown Showdown! Every Friday in April, we'll be dropping an episode where we talk about two western romances.
We're starting things off Old School with two romances from the 90s: The Touch of Fire by Linda Howard (Amazon | Bookshop) and Texas Destiny by Lorraine Heath (Amazon | Bookshop). Come for the dusty coats and the snake venom, stay for our discussion of how we imagine American history. Plus, of course we're talking about the swoon factor!
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
it's ah It's called the Honey Bucket and it was there. Anyhow. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Smut Report!
Introduction and Upcoming Themes
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome back to the Smut Report podcast.
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Holly. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Erin. what we're doing this month, we have something special planned. Basically Ingrid was like, we have to do another bracket. Bracket!
00:00:25
Speaker
Bracket! Every time we do one we're all like, we're never doing that again. You guys are like, we're never doing that again. And I'm like, that was so fun. How about next month we do it again? And you guys are like, no.
00:00:36
Speaker
Yeah. So we'll link in show notes to all our previous madnesses that we've
Choosing Historical Westerns
00:00:42
Speaker
done. But for April 2025, reading Westerns. we are reading westerns Giddy up, cowboys.
00:00:50
Speaker
Exactly. And we're reading historical Westerns because otherwise it's just like too big. There were too many choices in modern society for cowboys. Yeah.
00:01:01
Speaker
I feel like also we're probably going to see, maybe we have to do another bracket, guys. But but yeah I feel like we'll probably see other tropes and conventions in like contemporary Westerns or cowboy books.
00:01:15
Speaker
but Yeah. Yeah. than what we're going to see in this conversation.
Featured Authors: Beverly Jenkins and Katherine Anderson
00:01:19
Speaker
yeah Yeah. so originally the plan was that we were going to do head to head like we did with the Duke off, but Westerns, unlike Dukes, are not super popular right now. Correct. So i curated the list of books and I did so by looking at a lot of best of Westerns lists and on Goodreads and Reddit and like some other bloggers. Ask on Blue Sky if people had recommendations and the vast majority of the books recommended
Decade Exploration: 90s Westerns
00:01:55
Speaker
old. Hmm.
00:01:56
Speaker
for top Westerns. There are a couple of exceptions. Beverly Jenkins has been like steadily writing historical Westerns through her whole career.
00:02:07
Speaker
And her new one, you know she had a new one come out and last year, maybe. She's steadily producing them, and they're popular and highly recommended. But most of the most popular ones are from the 90s and the 2000s.
00:02:21
Speaker
So instead, we're kind of doing historical overview of Westerns. So we're going to do one week of ninety s Westerns, one week of early 2000s Westerns, and then two weeks of Westerns from the 2020s to see where the genre is right now, even if it's small but mighty.
00:02:41
Speaker
but So that's what's happening. This week is 90s week, so hold on to your butts, guys. it was a lot. It was a lot.
00:02:53
Speaker
They did a little differently in the ninety s Yeah, well, I think that The challenge that we had, even with some of the really popular recommendations, was, you know, Holly did a first pass before we started even discussing what to finally choose. And she proactively avoided anything that was going to look like super racist.
Book Selection and Summaries
00:03:17
Speaker
So we're yeah we tried to avoid like portrayals of Native Americans that were almost certain to be super sketchy. or ah Yeah, the writing's on the wall.
00:03:28
Speaker
Confederate apologist stuff and uh yes I really failed in both of those areas this week oops I think it's just hard I think it's hard to find because I think we'll discuss it like these didn't have anything overtly about any of that in their blurbs no yeah no and some do so that makes it a little easier to keep track of but like
00:04:00
Speaker
Who's moving over here? Who's moving to Texas and who's moving to New Mexico and who's moving to Arizona and what are they trying to achieve? So I guess we can't be fully surprised.
00:04:12
Speaker
Yeah. yeah But yes, that did mean, for example, like Katherine Anderson, who is a super popular Western author, who, unlike many authors in the 90s who wrote Westerns and then switched to other subgenres, Katherine Anderson kind of stuck with Westerns, but she tended to write quote unquote savage novels.
00:04:31
Speaker
heroes right right right so we didn't read any of her but here are the books we did read this week we read Texas Destiny Lorraine Heath which is from 1997 and Heath is still writing romance but she switched to Regencies yes pretty early in her career i think she has maybe two western series and then switched to Regencies and has been writing them for 20 ah Texas Destiny is the first in her Texas
Tropes and Themes in Western Romances
00:05:00
Speaker
trilogy.
00:05:00
Speaker
um And then we also read the Touch of Fire by Linda Howard. Linda Howard wrote some Westerns and some kind of contemporary romances she's been writing since the early 80s.
00:05:14
Speaker
The Touch of is from 1992, but she wrote a couple of those and then switched to contemporary romantic suspense. And i think her most recent book was published in 2017. So she's also an active powerhouse romance author.
00:05:29
Speaker
So those were what we read. And i think ah The Touch of Fire is technically the third book in a trilogy she wrote, but it stands alone. Like, there's no hint about anybody else.
00:05:40
Speaker
So we'll call it a standalone, because it also doesn't introduce anybody who's going to have an HEA later. Yeah. Now, justice for Atwater! Yeah, right? Yeah. um that would I would read that, actually. i know, right? Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, so we're going to talk about these books and how the Western has changed or not changed and microtropes and history making. And we're going to get real nerdy up in here. We're so nerdy. We're nerdy anyway, but this is like a prime opportunity for being extra nerdy.
00:06:16
Speaker
It's i I have a hard time keeping myself awake during many of our historical conversations. So I will do my best to stay with it. If you guys go really far down the rabbit hole, we might have a problem, but I'll do my best. You're just going to have to pull us back out of the rabbit Wake up, guys.
00:06:34
Speaker
Not a textbook. So should we do our one-sentence summaries? Let's do it. Yeah. Should we start with Linda Howard? I guess that's the older one. Okay. So The Touch of Fire by Linda Howard. One sentence summary is this outlaw has been hiding in the southwestern wilderness for four years, killing all the people who are trying to find him and bring him back for the bounty on his head.
00:07:02
Speaker
and After he gets shot by a bounty hunter, he abducts the only doctor in this small town. And the doctor is a woman.
00:07:12
Speaker
And ah he carts her off to a weird mountain cabin that lasts for like half the book. And they have some really troubling interpersonal relationship issues that culminate in the most uncomfortable sex I maybe have ever read.
00:07:30
Speaker
and And then they go on a road trip with some other weird, just like, okay, I guess that's part of the book now until finally everything happens in like the last 20% of the book and they like magically clear his name.
00:07:51
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. That was both satisfying in its Aaron originality and thorough. Yeah. a Good job. Yeah. Spoilers. so You might not like the Aaron specials, but we love them.
00:08:04
Speaker
All right. Ingrid, do you want to go should I? Okay. I got it. So talented female physician is abducted and comes out with a serious case of Stockholm syndrome. Yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker
By outlaw who is sort of innocent and also really sort of not. And ends up throwing all of her chips in with him and running away together. The end. All right. All right.
00:08:31
Speaker
All right. So Rafe, the outlaw, kidnaps Annie, the doctor. And I agree about the Stockholm Syndrome. Plus a little bit of like Florence Nightingale Syndrome going on.
00:08:44
Speaker
and maybe she's got some Patty Hearst going on too. Like, don't know. Desperately means a little bit of therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And because sex equals love. Yes. In the logic of this story.
00:09:00
Speaker
Immediately. Now they're in love. And then they go on a Jefferson Davis rehabilitation tour. I could not. Yes. Yeah. What the heck was that? It was a surprise. It was surprise.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yeah. cries it was a song I was like, yeah this is a strange time of this is a strange time to be reading this book. ah Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
Anyway, so we'll talk about that. But should we do our one-sentence summary of Texas Destiny? And then we'll come back and talk about... Okay, I'm ready for Texas Destiny. texas day okay I can do that one.
00:09:37
Speaker
Okay, the Taciturn middle brother is sent to pick up his overachiever older brother's mail order bride. And it takes like 10,000 years for them to get from Forth Worth to their ranch where they have a million angsty feelings about all of the decisions they've ever made in their entire life.
00:09:59
Speaker
in their entire lives
Historical Context and Cultural Impact
00:10:01
Speaker
and then they get to the ranch and they have more angsty feelings about how in love with each other they are but they can't be together because of capital r reasons until they can obviously because it's a romance
00:10:17
Speaker
Tell me how you really feel, Erin. was like, when are they going to done with this road trip? It was so long. Oh, that's so funny.
00:10:29
Speaker
was just like, oh my god. love it. I love it. I'm crying. I was like eating my bagel and like sobbing. reading
00:10:40
Speaker
The angsty feelings just really got me. I'm really glad for you, Holly. You know, he's got a duster and like a beaten up hat. And, you know, if anyway lies on his sleeping pad alone and a single tear drips down his cheek. And I'm just like, oh,
00:11:00
Speaker
Holly just likes it when they dress for the part. If you're going to be a character in one of Holly's books, if you're going make her cry, you got to commit to the costume, sir. That's true. Yeah. Commit to the character. Yeah, that's right.
00:11:11
Speaker
All right. Do you want to go Ingrid or should I? ah Well, this one, I'm hilariously, this is one of those moments. I am so hilariously in the middle of you two because I'm just kind of like, I mean, they ah go on a road trip. Yeah.
00:11:25
Speaker
Of course, they catch feelings. Nobody talks. You think they're going to not get, you know, like, it's just for me, it was a lot of nothing sauce. Like, I was like, yeah, all these terrible, they recount all these terrible things. But like the actual action is kind of like just this road trip where they have all these little like whoopsie doopsies along the way.
00:11:45
Speaker
So I guess my sentence is mega injured Confederate soldier who didn't want to be a Confederate soldier picks up his brother's bride from the train station. accidentally falls in love with her.
00:11:57
Speaker
Both of them have trauma. They fall in love after lots of angst to the end. I don't know. Like, I don't... but i like I could get into it, but like but this is like i I have to be an errand with this one-sentence summary because there's so much like little tiny plot bumps that it's like, well, and then... Because if you simplify it too much, it's nothing.
00:12:17
Speaker
There's nothing. Yeah, I think I can see what you're saying. it's They're there for each other is ah is like probably a key just one-sentence summary because they're... All those little bumps, it's like, he sees her...
00:12:31
Speaker
when she has trauma in this scenario it's just incremental intimacy there's my sentence finally yeah people who weren't supposed to fall in love build very incremental intimacy through the sharing of their trauma and blah blah blah okay holly you go ahead uh okay houston and amelia were a trip together uh i
00:12:57
Speaker
Okay, hang on. You're right. There's like all this little stuff that happens. But like the main crux of it is that, like, they build intimacy and like Houston, like learns that he can dream for himself.
00:13:10
Speaker
And Amelia shares in that dream with him. Well, what's more is that I think, well, so we can get into it later, but i my opinion on that one is that he learns that he can have his own dreams and Amelia learns that she has choice in which dreams she aligns with.
Evolution and Modern Adaptation Challenges
00:13:30
Speaker
Right. Cause she just wanted yeah any old dream at the time. She was just like, all right, I'll build what I just like, she literally says that's her dream is just to like share a dream with somebody else. Like she never asks herself like what dream she wants.
00:13:42
Speaker
Right. Anywho, that's for later. Except being a mother and a wife. Yeah. Well, yeah. The choices were limited back then, Erin. Okay. I mean, it's not like you could go become a female doctor or anything.
00:13:58
Speaker
I will say Anis, Annie was. Anis is a better name than Annie, too, by the way. I was so mad when she didn't use that. I was like, Anis is such a great name. like It is a great name. It's more badass than Annie.
00:14:09
Speaker
She was from a very well-to-do family in Pennsylvania. And then she ended up in Arizona territory because it was the only place that she could find where people would come to her to use her doctoring service because they literally had no other option. Like if she was in a town anywhere else, they would always prefer the man doctor over her.
00:14:28
Speaker
But she's coming from a very privileged position where like her dad was able to pay for her schooling Whereas everyone else is kind of well in a state of rebuilding after the Civil War. Well, but i mean, but Rafe, okay, he's rebuilding after the Civil War. But before the war, he was also like he was in law school.
00:14:46
Speaker
yeah So, yeah I mean, if you think about it, like before the war, all this but here's another trend, guys, that we should be picking up on. Because before the war, so was Amelia. Her father was a plantation owner. Right. Do you know what i mean? So like, we're looking at a but bunch of pretty privileged people. Right. That were privileged. That were privileged. Right.
00:15:03
Speaker
Although I think she was, and she was really young. She was really little. Like she was eight when the war ended. So, so yes, she was privileged, but she did, you know, she didn't full, she didn't reach adulthood in that privilege. Right.
00:15:16
Speaker
And both the books take place in the way. Yeah. 1871 for the Linda Howard and six for the Lorraine Heath.
00:15:28
Speaker
And like, they don't both take place in the Southwest. So just, you know, either West Texas and then kind of Arizona. Yeah. Which I thought that this could be apropos of nothing, but since we're kind of also looking at ah cultural components, you know, Texas has its own whole Texas...
00:15:47
Speaker
Yeah, i yeah that's a whole thing. i'm i guess i did and didn't kind of get that from the book you know arizona territory is was more like well we're in this little boomtown and it it kind of felt like anywhere ah Southwest Territories kind of a thing and former Mexican territory.
00:16:09
Speaker
And they specifically included some indigenous Americans in there, which we had some fun white savior stuff going on.
00:16:19
Speaker
But, you know, there was a lot more ah mix of maybe what that looked like. And then... In the Lorraine Heath in Texas, it was really a lot more just like ranch cattlemen.
00:16:33
Speaker
They didn't even run into anybody else except for an like they stopped at another rancher's house. On the road trip. um And part of that story was about how isolated Amelia would be being the only woman.
00:16:47
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, it was very similar settings of like desolate, not desolate, maybe, but very wide open spaces. There's nobody there. You could get lost here.
00:16:59
Speaker
and her Yeah, I mean, and they both have elements of like us versus nature. Yes. Right. So one thing that we wanted to talk about was how these books as maybe maybe these aren't foundational texts, because, you know, West historical Westerns.
00:17:16
Speaker
Romances had already been around for a while, but as like indicative of what we expect to see in this genre and as building blocks for later books that we're going to read. So like Man Against Nature, I feel like, is a big one. Oh, yeah.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and one of the big hallmarks is that it's not just that it's man against nature, it's man harnessing nature. Yeah. It's not just that like
Critique and Gender Roles
00:17:40
Speaker
he knows how to fight it. It's that he's at home in it. He's comfortable in it. There's a connection with it that's unique that is brought up in little ways it's about like the way he connects with animals or like the way he knows how to like work with his hands or build something from nothing. There's that for sure.
00:17:56
Speaker
i noticed that actually with Rafe because how he was able to like, oh, the snow was coming. And so he just like built a bigger stable. Yeah. No problem. Got that covered. Here, take this mud and seal it up. Like, he just knew how to survive and it was no issue even though he had, like, two putrid bullet holes in his side.
00:18:13
Speaker
Right. Well, and, like, he's like, oh, I know the snow is coming in 36 hours from now. yeah Yeah. Right? Yeah. Right, in Houston. right You need to train our weather people a bit better. because Yeah, seriously.
00:18:26
Speaker
um Well, in Houston, like his whole thing is he he wants to breed horses, and he can like communicate with the horses and wild mustangs, and they like have this whole interlude where they, on their road trip, capture a herd of wild mustangs together.
00:18:43
Speaker
Okay, sorry. Can we just... yeah After they have lost their wagon of supplies, I could not get over that they're like, let's take a one week break when we have yeah we know more limited food supplies than we had before.
00:18:56
Speaker
and we're like on the open plains. Yeah, let's spend a week trying to make friends with horses. i was like, what is happening right now? Well, he's like, I have some stuff in my saddlebags. And I'm like, yeah, is it like baldy heart attack? Like, what are
Episode Conclusion and Future Topics
00:19:10
Speaker
we talking about here?
00:19:12
Speaker
Okay, sorry. Especially because he's like so practical in the beginning, which is funny, Erin, because you know how we're always like, hold on a second. So he like kind of gets on her about like, you don't have everything you need. You only have one carpet bag. Like that's not enough supplies. And then he was like, I have what's in my side saddle. We're good.
00:19:29
Speaker
You know what I mean? It's funny. Although it could speak to the fact that he thought she needed more, you know, but he doesn't. I think that's be definitely part of it. Yeah, but but and it is funny that he's like absolutely adamant, like, we got to go shopping. You don't have anything. And then he's like, just, it's fine.
00:19:44
Speaker
I got a couple things in this tiny little sack. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was interesting. The Touch of Fire was much more interested in like the chores, right? yeah And like all the stuff that they had to do to stay alive.
00:19:59
Speaker
Like, i know what they were eating for every meal and how much food they had left. And it sounded gross, but yes. Yes. ah um Right. And like in Texas Destiny, i don't i don't think we saw them eat anything on the trail ever.
00:20:15
Speaker
Like that wasn't the important thing. No, no. You know, it was much less about yearning. They had yearning to do. They couldn't be bothered with things like nutrition. like Yeah, it's true. I will also say this. Now, I don't think it's in every single one.
00:20:28
Speaker
I don't. But another common component to a lot of Westerns that I am gathering is she's not like the other girls. Yeah, but I feel like that was true in every romance written in the It It is.
00:20:42
Speaker
But because it's one of those things where he's like, oh, she's a girl. Like, this is going to be hard for her. Like, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there's always this like, wow. Yeah. So impressive that she's totally fine, like hanging with the guys, you know, like there's that kind of a thing or like.
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, they're both, we'll call them ah sheltered Eastern Misses, which is like a common Western archetype. And both of them have things about them that makes them not kind of the perfect example of that archetype.
00:21:12
Speaker
But, you know, they do have a little bit of that. going on but then end up being tougher than they seem when push comes to shove and they're roughing it on this road trip yeah Which, you know, i mean, I guess the women who were being mail order brides or going on wagon trains or whatever might have gotten on there and been like, this was a mistake.
00:21:36
Speaker
But I feel like it's probably much more likely that they were like, all right, this is the road I'm on and I better buckle down and get with it or we're going to die. you know yeah I feel like that shouldn't have been a surprise, but it probably was.
00:21:50
Speaker
I mean, the other thing is, is that riffing off of that, because there's also that like, not enough women thing. here So like, also, it's like, well, I'm not around women very much. So I don't really know you creatures, like I have a hard time anticipating your strange needs and strange ways kind of a thing.
00:22:05
Speaker
So there's that too. Yeah. Well, but, ah you know, like not enough women, but there's definitely prostitutes in the background in both of these books. Right. But they're not women, so they don't count. they're not women. They're not real people, human beings. We have these like sheltered Eastern Misses who are the desirable women out West.
00:22:23
Speaker
Although, I don't know, I feel like most women who wagon trained out West with families or to be mail-order brides were... They were. yeah because otherwise they'd stay put. These are people who had no other choice.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah. Well, like, I would like to take a moment and point out the ways that this glamorizes things that were, like, not accurate. But um it's, ah i think, because, yeah, historically speaking, the mail-order brides were people who needed to start fresh somewhere where nobody knew you. Like...
00:22:49
Speaker
Yeah. These were not these pristine misses that just, yes. And some of them, they're like, oh, I lost all my money and I need to start over and have a new dream. Okay. But like, if you were still respectable, you could probably still find somebody to marry you because there were poor people in your town.
00:23:04
Speaker
You know mean? Or like there were, yeah but that ties into another, this is probably, we missed like the number one megatrope of Westerns, which is the American dream, right? All right. Let's do it.
00:23:15
Speaker
It is that it's people out there during these historical Westerns, right? Is that they were going there because they wanted to build a life of their dreams. And this is how they were going to be able to do it.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah. Making something from nothing, which if you think about it, you can understand why this had this genre had such a chokehold on the romance genre. This smaller genre had a chokehold on this bigger genre because that's kind of what you're doing romantically. Right. So it's like it it it's just built in like bigger theme, smaller theme, holding hands.
00:23:50
Speaker
We're the same thing. Yeah. You're building a life together from nothing and you're building ah romance together from nothing. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're right about this. But then i am why did it stop being so popular?
00:24:04
Speaker
Well, like, is it is it because we're disillusioned with the American dream? I feel like there are enough people who are maybe not. My theory is this. I have I have two theories on it. One is that, yes, I think there's a certain level of disillusionment. And two, I think we've become more educated in what this Western expansion actually meant.
00:24:24
Speaker
So like back in back when we were growing up, right, even living in an area that would have been where people were pushing West. Erin and I grew up further West than the East Coast.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah. You know, the the narrative really was like, oh, these brave people seeking a new life. It wasn't they were forcibly taking territory and killing people for this expansion. Like this came at a cost, ah a terrifying, horrible cost to other people, to the indigenous people who live there.
00:24:52
Speaker
We know that now. And people are talking about, you know, like it's something that like I think we're more aware of that. And it's really hard to hold space for this like, oh, yeah, look at them going and finding land and building a whole life for themselves.
00:25:04
Speaker
When at the same time you're like, but whose land was it when they took it? So I think there's that there's a more of an awareness. And then there's also this disillusionment because it's like, you know, like, how do you do that now? No. And it's, it's, we were growing up during the nineties when these books were published. And when you think back to that time, it was very much like, you know, that this was a go get them. Like, yeah. like the american trial yeah It was like, I guess it was like, you know, 2008 around when we were graduating college and,
00:25:33
Speaker
There was the recession and none of the people our age could get jobs. and And like that might have been a big turning point. Although Westerns were already a little out of favor then. Very interesting. I mean, for me, there's the American dream component and the who is this actually impacting and why do we not see that?
00:25:52
Speaker
And then also like for these two, the lost cause narrative has just got such a chokehold on American history. But like, I didn't feel bad. for these former confederate soldiers like i get it war is bad war is bad for everybody like but you know there was one moment when amelia was like oh my father was so sad that his way of life was ending i was like yeah yeah because his way of life was centered on oppressing other people like for all of the profit that he could have so you could have your nice plantation house like
00:26:25
Speaker
i Great. but I feel real good for you. I will say this. I did feel bad for Houston because he was a child. It was very clear that he was dragged into that. He was not old enough to understand what he was doing. Like it was his different father was abusive. His father. Yeah. So like that's that's a bit different. I would say. hmm.
00:26:43
Speaker
But I did, I had ah this huge, i actually had to like stop reading. I like put my, my tablet down and like looked up and off into space for a second because there was this moment where Amelia is like, yeah, then somebody bought my plantation and they let us stay to like clean it or whatever because they didn't have anywhere to go.
00:27:01
Speaker
and her And her mom. yeah yeah And they moved us into the slave quarters. yeah And I was just like, oh, honey. Oh, sweet child. like Yeah. And Houston is so horrified on her behalf. And I was i was also just like, ah come on.
00:27:16
Speaker
And she's like, and then we had to pick cotton. I'm just like... Yeah. was like, okay. Yeah. But like, that was so sad for you that it was that other, the people that you were forcing to do that, like, stopped doing that for you.
00:27:31
Speaker
And that wasn't the only moment, but there were, that there were many moments in there where I was like, Ooh, I definitely was sitting there being like, you can't rewrite this. You can't just pretend this didn't happen. But when you read it, there's evidence in these very fictional accounts that that's exactly what happened. Yeah.
00:27:47
Speaker
So I think that it's really interesting rereading these because we're seeing now with new eyes, this rewriting of history. And so yeah anyway, not to get into like, cause this is, we read romance novels cause we don't want to think about this shit, you know, that's happening right now in the real world, pardon my French. But anyway, the point is, is that,
00:28:05
Speaker
It was, it is very surreal. I think reading, reading accounts of the civil war that are like, oh yeah, no, it wasn't about that. It was just this way. It was just our way of life. You know, like, like what what does that mean? Say what it means. oh my yeah Or like Rafe, who was like, she was like, oh, did you say for the Confederacy? and he was like, well, for Virginia.
00:28:25
Speaker
yeah and I was like, really this is And for people who are not history nerds, the Lost Cause narrative is a very intentional campaign put on by privileged Southerners to make the Civil War into a just war.
00:28:50
Speaker
Mm hmm. Not about slavery, like all of the conversation that we see. And this is also one reason that I tend to avoid not only Westerns, but also, i mean, maybe even less Westerns than like anything written by white people about the post-Civil War or like the Civil War, the post-Civil War period romance wise. It's like not going there because it's almost certain to have some degree of lost cause excusing what happened.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yes. And that's a problem with ah our historical narrative. Also, just to note, both of these authors are Southern. Southern. One in Alabama, yeah. So Lorraine Heath is from Texas and Linda Howard is from Alabama or lives there currently. just and Just as an aside, though, I do feel like there is some just because of, you know, just this context that we're constantly bathing in nowadays. It is important to remember, too, though, that like when Aaron's talking about this kind of just cause like rewrites,
00:29:44
Speaker
So like the people who are educated in these systems down there, right? If that's what you're taught, if that, that they're, oh, was states' rights, like, oh, blah blah blah, blah, blah, or whatever. It's not that simple. It's more complicated than that.
00:29:57
Speaker
You know, that's, that's the reality that they're brought up in. It was the, when you're lied to, it's important to give that. Yeah. So anyway, I just don't want to, like, there's, it's, this is complicated. It's basically what I'm saying.
00:30:10
Speaker
It's a very complicated issue and not one that I anticipated yeah jumping headfirst into with yeah but you didn't didn't think we were talking about i didt yeah like and be i didn't think that no i was thinking we were going to talk about how one of the books there's no whoopee until the end and the other book there's all the whoopee and very little soap so that's what i thought we were going to be talking about There was, you know, she does with all the whoopie, she is very, very fastidious and into bathing.
00:30:44
Speaker
But not enough so, Polly. It's always the yeast infection component. There's the. Yeah, I did wonder where she was peeing after all the whoopie when they were snowed in. Where's she peeing?
00:30:57
Speaker
Where is she peeing? It's going to be, you know what it was, Holly? Not happening. In a bucket in the corner and the house smelled like pee pee and poo poo while they were getting down. That's what it was.
00:31:08
Speaker
I don't, I don't think they had a bucket. They had like, they did have a bucket for the horses. They buckets for feeding that or watering the horses. gross
00:31:18
Speaker
it was like if you really think about it you're just like i gotta i gotta not think so this is this is where like it was ah it was like so cold they like couldn't go outside without like their noses falling off so they peed in a bucket holly is what it was so she was falling in love to the smell of urine yeah calling it a house just to be clear guys Calling house. It's a table.
00:31:45
Speaker
It's very generous. It's generous. It's like a cave that somebody dug into the side of the hill. It's got like a sod roof and some wood planks on the floor and like wood planks to like yeah make some walls and like a front.
00:32:01
Speaker
But it's like not a house. a shanty. It's like it's it yeah This is one of those other things I feel like because Erin and i had more unique ah childhood upbringing involving a farm and that did not have plumbing.
00:32:16
Speaker
So when I feel like when I read these books, like I think some people have, you know, we talk about that willing suspension of disbelief. I would love to have that here. But unfortunately, I know what it means to live without plumbing.
00:32:27
Speaker
And so I'm like... I know too much to be like, that was romantic. I'd love to be holed up in a little hovel in the woods with my sweetheart. No, I wouldn't.
00:32:37
Speaker
There's no outhouse. I'm not going. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome. Sorry to burst your bubble. That's why some of these books are hard for some of us. Well, you know, like, at least if they're on a road trip forever, you leave the pee behind.
00:32:51
Speaker
See, and that's why I had an easier time with that one, because I've never gone across the countryside on horseback. So I was like, what's food? yeah They've got a fridge. I was like, there's no trees here. So obviously, they peed in privacy and did their business in privacy.
00:33:08
Speaker
Privacy shmivacy. It didn't even occur to me. I was just like, absolute willing suspension of disbelief didn't even occur to me because I haven't lived it. And I don't know. So yeah, there you go. actually, that was one thing that kind of surprised me And felt anachronistic, I guess, about the Linda Howard.
00:33:28
Speaker
It was Annie was so concerned with like privacy and purity and all of these ideas that are like, okay, I mean, that tracks historically, but also she was living in a boomtown, like taking care of herself. She's a doctor. Like,
00:33:50
Speaker
At what point does your Philadelphia upbringing just turn into like, okay, this is what we're dealing with right now? Like, yeah but I am sure that she saw guys peeing in the street because I saw guys while I was traveling around the world peeing in the street with impunity. Like, I'm pretty sure it wasn't different in eighteen seventy Yeah.
00:34:10
Speaker
Yeah. But I have a theory about that. I have a theory about that because she says when she is accidentally half raped. ah Anyway, the point is, is that I don't even know what to say about that. We can talk about it. But basically, I was like, oh, come on. This is so 90s. This could not be more 90s. Anyway.
00:34:27
Speaker
The point is, is that she basically says, yeah, it's not like I'm stupid. like I take care of the horse in town and stuff. Like, I know what sex is and I know what happens or whatever. But part of it is, is that she's a little scared of it because of the absolute callous disregard that she sees in the way that she, when she's treating these women who have, I mean, very clearly like sexual violence done upon them. Right.
00:34:48
Speaker
she's, she She doesn't know what it that it can be different is the implication in the book. But also between the lines and not between the lines. I mean, I'm pretty sure that if I looked back, I think there is some kind of explicit connection here.
00:35:00
Speaker
But she's like, I don't want to be like them. So like she she doesn't want to have sex like that because she's like, you know, I am not that. I'm different than that. So it's that's that. I mean, if you're going to like be cute about it, that's that. I'm not like the other girls thing because in her community, all the other girls are whores, basically.
00:35:18
Speaker
So like, there's that. And because she'll be like, she's like, what kind of a woman would I be if I did that? And what does she say? There's the line. What kind of a something would I be? There's a specific word she uses, though. Yeah. And then he says, what kind of kind of woman would you if you didn't?
00:35:34
Speaker
Right. Because like, basically he's, she's saying like, what what kind of woman would i would I be if I'm turned on by this? And he's like, what kind of woman would you be if you're not turned on by this? Like women get horny. This is what happens.
00:35:45
Speaker
So anyway, like her internal battle very much revolves around that is, is like her own sexual autonomy or whatever. But because this is a 90s book, the only way she's going to get past that is by being forced into it because good girls don't willingly give up their virginity. Yeah, good girls say no.
00:36:03
Speaker
So that's why that has to be the way that unfolded for her, because if she's having this struggle, right, she has to be given no choice. And that's why we have the accidental half rape scene. and and And because it's a 90s book.
00:36:14
Speaker
But yeah, my understanding was like that that's very much like that. That's baked in. That's like her whole internal struggle up until the moment she's like, put it in. Right. oh And after that, she's like, oh, no, I'm completely devoted to you and love you forever.
00:36:28
Speaker
Well, and she's also, ah before, she when she's still resisting, she's also saying to herself, like, I know because I'm the right kind of woman, if I let him into my vagina, then I'm also going to let him into my heart. Yep.
00:36:44
Speaker
It's so Except usually, instead of vagina, she says, like, loins. yep right oh my gosh there i was like we should have a bingo card for old school it's like low we loins we have yeah what was the other one oh nubbin there was a nubbin i was just like that's not a there's a shaft manly manly parts Yeah. Oh, man.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah. i also love I also love the fact that after he, like, ruins her first time for her. Oh, my God. It was so bad. All time. i was so uncomfortable.
00:37:18
Speaker
I was like, how could how could this be a good, like, why would you include that in It was so, like, so bad. i feel like it's worth reading. It's so bad. Like,
00:37:29
Speaker
you Look, we read a lot of bodice rippers, and I think all three of us are really good at being like, eh, you know what? It was the 90s, or eh, it was the early 2000s. This was so... I feel like even if you were fully adult existing in the 90s, and you opened this book and you were like, well, this looks like a good new release to try out, you'd still be horrified.
00:37:48
Speaker
Okay. but Can I just read it? Well, maybe put a trigger warning out there for people, because this is straight up. Okay, trigger warning. This is like a really awful first sex scene. Okay, so she's like, she says, make love to me with her big doe eyes. Okay.
00:38:04
Speaker
hey Even though she had asked him for this, he knew she had to be frightened, never having done it before, but he couldn't find either the words or the patience to reassure her. He pried her knees apart and mounted her using his muscle thighs. Like she is some kind of farm animal. Like be real here. Yeah.
00:38:20
Speaker
his muscled thighs to force her legs wide open. She gave a thin, startled cry as his shaft butted hard against her tender cleft. Wraith felt her trembling beneath him. It cost him pain, effort, and sweat to refrain from shoving himself into her, but he held on.
00:38:36
Speaker
He touched her chin, and her fearful, dark gaze met his. It's going to hurt, he said grimly. I know. Her voice was a mere threat of sound. I won't be able to stop.
00:38:47
Speaker
She knew that, could feel the straining desperation of his body, see it in his eyes. I don't want you to. He was lost, drowning as the last shred of control unraveled. The wonderful heated energy of her was pouring into him all along their naked bodies, and he couldn't think, couldn't talk.
00:39:05
Speaker
He thought he heard her say Rafe, but there was a roaring in his ears that was growing louder and louder and almost blocked out everything else, and he wasn't certain she had spoken. And, like, he just kind of goes to pound town, and, like, that's the end of that.
00:39:19
Speaker
Yeah. And like the part, but even the part that's the worst for me is at the end, right? Where he's like, she's basically is like laying there motionless with her head turned, like looking off vacantly to the side. Like this is not, this is not a situation where like, oh, that was just not a good experience. Like,
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah, that was not okay. Like the way the whole way that it happened, I was just like, oh, my God, you poor thing. And then the way that he talks about it afterwards is he's like, oh, yeah, I know that was really bad for her. And it wasn't it wasn't I need to make this right for her.
00:39:50
Speaker
It was if I don't make this right for her, she's never going to let me touch her again. Yeah. So like let that so let's just like let that marinate the difference between that this sex scene was like NBD back then Because he makes it right.
00:40:05
Speaker
And, like, he does, you know, like, oh, they have fun after that and everything's fine, right? But, like, this would not happen. Like, a villain would behave this way in modern romances. This is not how things go down now.
00:40:18
Speaker
For like the first half was giving me very strong dark romance vibes. Yeah. Because it's like she, I mean, he basically, he kidnaps her at gunpoint. Yeah. So there is this violence. And even by the time when they're at the point where they're going to get down, right? Like, yeah, they don't, there's no, no intimacy has been built yet. It's not like either of them trust each other.
00:40:40
Speaker
They're not like sitting there bonding over like stories. Literally the only intimacy they build comes from this very like abrupt, horrible, uncomfortable scene.
00:40:50
Speaker
Like that's where it comes from. Well, that plus there's the insta like tingles situation going on in this book where it's like, oh, he's kidnapped me and I'm terrified. But when I look at him, he's so sexy. Yeah.
00:41:04
Speaker
and'm like When we touch each other, we have magic heat. Yeah. I was like, don't love this in modern romance. I definitely don't love it in this situation. I know. it Well, and like, that's the thing. But like, I think that I think that is something to be said for dark romances now is that I feel like writers and readers like that, the way that this...
00:41:24
Speaker
that build now comes, I think it's gotten a lot more nuanced. And I think that with the awareness that we have now that no women don't actually just fall in love with guys because they have sex with them.
00:41:35
Speaker
It takes more intimacy takes more like it's, it's, it's right. or Or it's better done now. Or even if it's not, it's marketed differently, right? The first half of this book, everything up to when they leave their hobble could be plopped into a dark romance and you just put a different cover on it and write a slightly different ending and you market it differently.
00:41:58
Speaker
And I feel like it would sell fine, but to an audience that is specifically looking for like a Stockholm Syndrome fantasy. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and I feel like reading these books together to me was so wild because they had many similar tropes, but, and the heroes even are both like, taciturn in touch with the West outside of normal society. Yeah.
00:42:27
Speaker
All these things. But Rafe is classic alpha hole. Yeah. so Right. And Houston, like, I feel like we don't use this term much anymore, but I feel like Houston is very much a beta hero.
00:42:40
Speaker
And right. And I was not expecting to see that in a Western, frankly. Yeah. Well, he has different qualities. Right. Yeah.
00:42:51
Speaker
Like Dallas is Dallas in that book is almost we learn later that they both have some stuff going on from their father and the war that caused the feelings that they've had in adulthood. And that makes sense. But I mean,
00:43:07
Speaker
There's a point where Dallas tells their younger brother, who's still a teenager, like children should be seen and not heard. And I thought that Amelia was going to come in and be like, well, that's not the kind of husband that I want raising my kids with me. You know, so like there are some things about Dallas that are like, which, OK, hold on. By the way, i i started this book and I was like, his name is Houston and his brothers are Dallas and Austin.
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah. And Ollie was like, yep. So ah there's a reason for it. But that was wild. So but Houston, Houston is his own kind of good man. And he's still trying to like make it on his own. You know, like he's not living off of his brother, even though his brother would be happy to have him live in the giant house that he built.
00:43:54
Speaker
you know, he's creating his own future and is self-sufficient and is all of these other aspects of a hero that you right do typically want to see. Right. But I feel like just in terms of like, he, I feel like translates better a modern reader, right? Because he's like in touch with his feelings. He doesn't really like know how to handle them, but at least he knows he has them.
00:44:19
Speaker
And he like, he tries to make amends when he does something that he Nose is wrong. And he I wouldn't call him, he's not a cinnamon roll because he's like got this gruff exterior and cinnamon rolls can't be crunchy on the outside.
00:44:33
Speaker
this is my personal opinion. and um But some people would probably call him a cinnamon roll because he's just like, he's very gentle with Amelia all the time. Right? Really?
00:44:44
Speaker
uh he's in ways he's kind of stupid he yes okay he is yeah okay his words are not gentle but his actions are very gentle yes that's no that's very true and he's a nice i mean and he does that stupid thing where he lets her go for her own good yeah come But she also was so stupid, too, because it's like, guys.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah. They let it go way too far. Way too far. Way too long. Poor Dallas. Like, I didn't expect to feel so sorry for him. And then I was like, oh, guys, really? And he even is like, I wish you would have said something a little sooner.
00:45:23
Speaker
yeah I have read Dallas's book several years ago. And Dallas is, when you're in his head, he is a very classic late 90s alpha hole.
00:45:35
Speaker
But yeah, so I will say I think it's funny that, you know, how we when we pair these up, because we do it most the time, Holly does it blind. But there are always these always these like very strong, like juxtapositions, like this is how they're exactly the same. And this is how they're different. And it was no different here. Right. So we have like couples that are bonding on this literal journey together or whatever. you know what i mean?
00:45:56
Speaker
And then the the thing that was funny is, right, that but um Houston and Amelia bond. Like, they they bond so slowly over all these little moments and these, like, little heart-to-hearts and these, like, revealing of their true selves. Like, they play truth. They fall in love over truth or dare for Pete's sake. It's so freaking wholesome.
00:46:15
Speaker
It's freaking wholesome. It's really cute. Erin just has her eyes closed. and I hate truth or dare. I'm just like, I guess we're doing this right now. All right. But it was, I mean, to be fair, like he wasn't going to open up. So whatever. The point is, is they, so it was like long and drawn out, like little, little intimacy breadcrumbs in the one book. And then it was like, well, we've done it. Now we're in love with each other in the second one. Like it was so funny, but um anyhow, but I wanted to talk about, since we've talked about the tropes. So while we go, i was telling Holly and Aaron that I think we should come up with like the funny little things. do You know how there's always these like little ingredients that are just in the tropes.
00:46:55
Speaker
okay So we're calling them Western. These are the mess the term microtropes. So I want to talk about those. ah Yeah, we should. Okay. Like how like they're dusty clothes.
00:47:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Somebody she always has to be like, Oh, my clothes are so dusty. Or Oh, he's covered in dust. It's always in there. Yeah. Does he have to like stomp his boots before he walks into the house? That's how you know he's a good one. Yeah, that's how you know a good one.
00:47:21
Speaker
So he doesn't track mud inside. so Yeah. Yeah. Even if if the floor is dirt, you still gotta stomp your boots off. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Also, it's i don't think it's a Western unless there's some kind of random character, usually like a secondary or tertiary character, but it's one of the bad guys, clearly a bad guy. And he always has sour breath.
00:47:43
Speaker
Mm-hmm. No crest out west. but But the hero doesn't have bad breath. His breath is always mysteriously minty. Yeah. Or tastes like cinnamon.
00:47:53
Speaker
Or tastes like cinnamon. was like, this is... That was my favorite when he's like chewing on the cinnamon bark that she gives him and he's like, hmm. We got kissing breath. Well, now that chewed on this, it's time for us to kiss. And that was like literally how abrupt it was. It wasn't like he was like, oh, I looked at her lips and I was like, hmm. He was like...
00:48:10
Speaker
You know, I used to make out with broads who chew on cinnamon before the war. You're here. You're a broad. We just chewed on cinnamon. Let's make out. Like, it was literally like that.
00:48:20
Speaker
Let's see what else. At some point, she puts on a dress that doesn't fit her very well. Yeah. Or, and like, both of them had dress purchasing scenes where, like, he bought her special dress that... Like, bought for a horse.
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And a special relationship with his trusty steed. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. That's integral. Integral. ah Like, especially pronounced with Houston, who plays checkers with his horse. this works which That was actually really cute.
00:48:52
Speaker
I thought, I was like, okay, I like that. Well, and what i thought was what I thought was particularly hilarious about that was that he's mad at the horse for knocking over the checkers thing, and then he plays with Amelia, and she knocks over the checkers thing.
00:49:05
Speaker
Yeah, it was really funny. I was like, oh, my gosh. So she's basically like a human horse for him. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bunch of different things. We're going to come up with more, I'm sure, as we go. But yeah. Oh, no, we have to huddle together to preserve our body warmth.
00:49:17
Speaker
Oh, yes. Oh, it's so cold. Oh, I would never do this normally because I'm such a lady. yeah I'm cold and I'll die if I don't. Yeah. I just jumped into the river to save you. And now i have hypothermia.
00:49:30
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, the creepy crawly is going to get you. We're like... There's always like, make sure you shake your boots out before you put them on in case there's a scorpion in it. yeah Like that kind of a thing. And then she's like, oh, my.
00:49:43
Speaker
Don't forget to rustle your feet through the grass before you walk in case there's a snake there. Oh, no. Well, yeah, except Amelia does get bitten by a snake. I know. Well, oh, yeah, there has to be an emergency rescue. Emergency, yes.
00:49:57
Speaker
Yes, i emergency rescue. Although, you know, in this one, what? Does he ever rescue her? is that in a rape? No, she rescues him. She rescues him, yeah. She performs the emergency rescue. i just think there has to be some kind of emergency rescue. It's a peril, life and death, yes. And no doctor.
00:50:13
Speaker
We must know how far away from, yeah, ah modern technology they are. yeah It's just the two of us, and all you have is me to save your life, and I will die before I let anything happen to you.
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah. I like that I'm going to suck the venom. going to suck the venom. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was a good one. That's not an every one, but it is satisfying when it happens because it's like... I will say, ever since I watched Lonesome Dove with my husband's family as a teenager, have been so terrified of water moccasins. The idea of water moccasins is just absolutely terrifying to me. Oh, no!
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah. but i'm not I'm not sucking the venom out of your leg. I love you so much, but I will never do that. Because you know how bad that probably tastes? Blood already doesn't taste like good. And then you add venom into it.
00:51:00
Speaker
Like, no. Gross. That's not my primary concern. Okay. Well, I... I mean, I think that's valid. I thought about it, I don't like gross things in my mouth.
00:51:17
Speaker
Okay.
00:51:21
Speaker
You want to put yourself in danger? Well, that's my line in the sand. I don't live in the Wild West for a reason. These are the things, though. These are the things. You got to think about this stuff.
00:51:31
Speaker
Try not to let it ruin your experience. Yeah, they do. Well, then, okay, so we covered all these microtropes, but like they like build a romance. So I want to circle back then to like why these might be less popular.
00:51:44
Speaker
And I think in some ways, microtropes... Even now, people are like, this microtrope, right? Like, tell me books with this because i I just want it right now. It's that ingredient, that special sauce. And it's But I think also with these, it's more fun when you have like some of those old tropes and archetypes and story structures that were really popular 20 30 years they just...
00:52:09
Speaker
and they just Even with the little caveats, you're like, this is still just a book that just slaps, you know, like like The Bride or like Dreaming of You by Lisa Clark. You know, like there are some of those old schools that you're like, this still hits just real well for some reason. And think a lot of the books, they just don't hold up. They have too much of this like rapey stuff for like...
00:52:35
Speaker
Too much of the too much of something that it just doesn't feel good anymore. But then you read we can see I honestly haven't read that many modern Westerns. I haven't read that many Westerns in general, but I have read more modern British historicals.
00:52:50
Speaker
And they're just they don't tap into the same parts of my brain that got pleasure out of reading those old school domineering characters, I guess.
00:53:01
Speaker
yeah Well, it's interesting, though, you know, because you were talking about people asking for microtropes. And I feel like what are the microtropes people ask for? Like they want people want only one bed huddled together for warmth.
00:53:13
Speaker
They want hurt comfort. Right. Like hurt comfort is a big one that people want. And it's like all over these books, you know, and like the caregiving and the sickbed stuff.
00:53:24
Speaker
I love a sickbed. Yeah, I mean, and these these Westerns have all that in spades, but then they have, like Aaron said, they have some of this other baggage that is like little like, yikes. I mean, i i will say like the Linda Howard for me was was like really hard for me.
00:53:44
Speaker
i would say 100 to 150, which is like the key part where there're quote-unquote falling in love in the cabin. ah just, like, every other page, i was like, yuck.
00:53:55
Speaker
Gross. Yuck. Oh, I don't like that. And it wasn't just the rapey stuff. It was a lot of, like, very gender-essentialist, like, a woman is always seductive because she's a woman. Yeah. Like, stuff like that. And so I think some of that kind of language is stuff that...
00:54:15
Speaker
I mean, i I think that was more a hallmark of the 90s or older romance of bodice rippers rather than of Westerns. Yeah, I agree with But I feel like like the American myth of the Western is also very much like in the we like in the Wild West, men were men.
00:54:34
Speaker
Yeah. It's like Clint Eastwood and John Wayne. Yeah. and It probably is also... yeah amplified like it's not that it wasn't present before but if you're reading a regency romance it's in society so even if she's not like other girls there is still plenty of other women in society who are forming a backdrop and here you have like fewer people in general but like women being a scarce commodity and i think the commodity aspect really comes across
00:55:07
Speaker
in both of these books um even with the Lorraine Heath being less about how you're i mean yes I felt the same way reading this I was just like oh my gosh is can he not be like hey a woman i got a woman here and they're always so soft and all they have to do is exist in order for men to get a boner and I was like yeah I love that kind of language.
00:55:34
Speaker
Why should men have to monitor themselves? They should not. Okay. You know, that's exactly what it is. but But it's I think it's it's not unique, but it is amplified because of the other setting scenarios that exist in the narrative. Right. Because they're so isolated and because...
00:55:54
Speaker
There are few women. yeah And, you know, and because mail order by brides were ah reality or like there were all of these different incentives that towns in the West were doing to yeah try to get women and families to move West late once towns were somewhat established.
00:56:17
Speaker
Yep. And to be fair, the idea is you're going to want to belong to the right man. you know what I mean? Like, that's the idea. It's not just that this happens and it sucks. In these books, it's not just that it happens and like now we read it and we're like, man, that sucks. It's that there's like a willing, like, I would like to find the right man to completely belong to and to cease existing for you know yeah Well, right, but then it's amplified because if there's only a couple of women in town, then finding the right man to belong to is ah like kind of important for safety purposes.
00:56:51
Speaker
Very important, yeah. Right? Yeah. And I keep thinking about the couple that Houston and Amelia run across. They are presented very much like they love each other. He loves her. He puts his arm around her. But he's like, oh, she'll be so happy to talk someone else's ear off. Like it's yeah it's very much like she's a necessary comfort item with drawbacks.
00:57:14
Speaker
And this is somebody who's supposed to really love her. Yeah. So it's um there's ah that... necessity, they're a necessary bother are the the way that these women are described. You want a good one, but they're such a necessary bother. We need a woman, but boy, oh boy, we don't really, we don't really like them.
00:57:31
Speaker
Yeah. Right. They slow us down. Yep. Yeah. They, they make it so we can't talk the way we want to talk. Right. Like both of the books had secondary characters who would be swearing and then like apologizing to the woman.
00:57:43
Speaker
the main female character because like you know like the the marshal and the linda howard is always like oh these damn bastards oh excuse me ma'am and continue on you know and in the other one austin poor austin is like talking the way he normally talks and then he'll say something and his brothers will like smack him but upside the head and be like Can't say that in front of a lady.
00:58:07
Speaker
pull him in the hallway. Yeah. Pull him out of the hallway. yeah So there is this like idea that we need women to civilize us. Yeah. So here's the other side of the coin, maybe. or I think it's interesting, Ingrid, that you maybe are recalling that couples in the Lorraine, their relationship as a loving relationship. I feel like she specifically says, like, he looks at his wife like he adores her or something along those lines.
00:58:39
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But when she is talking to Amelia, she doesn't... I don't think she ever said anything that really... Obviously, she's not going to do it overtly. But I don't think she said anything that really implied that she truly loved her husband.
00:58:56
Speaker
It was more about... And I think this is the case throughout both of these books with the female characters that we encounter. It was, well, now I get to like have my own house and be a wife and a mother.
00:59:12
Speaker
and So achievement unlocked. And so it's I have a protector and like somebody to give me babies. Even in the in the Linda Howard, like it's a slightly different vibe, but she goes from like doctor zone. I'm only a doctor. I don't have a gender kind of a kind of a mindset almost to, oh, I could be a wife and a mother, too. And I could have all the things.
00:59:38
Speaker
I think that's very 90s. But also like being a wife and a mother is like a goal. Now, as opposed to where she was before, this her the way that she approached that shift in her mentality was like very jarring to me.
00:59:55
Speaker
And even in the Amelia, she also was like, my goal, like now I'm going to have a house and I'm going to be a wife and a mother and I can have my own space. But it was very wife and mother and somebody else's dream. We'd already talked about how she had.
01:00:07
Speaker
Well, and I do think that in in both in both books, we see a couple, obviously with Rafe and Annie, that's a little bit different. They do, you know, because that's their relationship is formed under pressure in isolation. Right. But like we we do see a couple that's presented as like the like this is what.
01:00:26
Speaker
it gives some context for these transactionary relationships out there. So in, in Rafe and Annie is that opens with her delivering a baby to a 17 year old who's married to a 40 something year old. right And she's like, it probably would be better if they died because their life is going to be miserable.
01:00:41
Speaker
So there's that counterbalance. So when she falls in love with this guy and her life is kind of whatever, but at least they love each other. Right. But you know, what you get the point, like there's this counterbalance to like put it into context. And that book is a little bit more like extremes of emotion or whatever, but the Houston book is a little bit more subtle.
01:00:57
Speaker
And that's what I think that couple, when we say loving, I don't mean that they love each other. I mean, there's tenderness or like warmth between them. Because at the time she's sitting there saying like, is it going to be so bad if I have the hots for Houston and I end up marrying Dallas instead? Like, couldn't could I settle for what that couple has? Because yes, that's what she's saying. is This woman is like, well, I have a house now and I have this thing. And he is like, well, she talks my head off, but have a good life with her. You know, it's like that. but And it's really kind of getting her to check in with herself and be like, could I settle for this? Is this enough for me?
01:01:29
Speaker
And so, yeah, in the context of the books in that time, I think that's what it serves as. But now with what we're reading it as with our modern minds, right, we now know that, like, you know, at that time and even to this day, i mean, hopefully we're raising our our boys better. But like, you know, back then, boys were really raised to believe that being like a woman was bad.
01:01:52
Speaker
And so there was a contempt for your rate baked into you is like a contempt for women, even in our generation. so like, it doesn't really surprise me that that's what we're seeing, even jokingly off the cuff, whatever in these books is the way that they're describing these women is that there is some level of hindrance or contempt because that's how we used to talk about women and i think that especially in houston's case that's made very clear that his dad was abusive and would especially abuse him anytime he did something soft soft or girly feminine yeah you know that he like made a ah daisy chain for his mom
01:02:32
Speaker
and his dad beat him for it. Stuff like this. That I think, in light of what Ingrid's saying, is kind of interesting because it's within the text that's being challenged, right? Because it's made clear that his dad was awful and that these things that were done to him as a child, including forcing him to go to war when he was 12, were not good for him and caused him a lot of trauma, but that there's still a little bit of this...
01:03:01
Speaker
woman is commodity language in the text. And I want to point out this subtlety because I do, this is what I'm saying. Like, I think that this book was a little bit more interesting depth wise. So you'll notice that and when the book opens and Houston is at the station, he's supposed to wear that embroidered band on his hat.
01:03:17
Speaker
And he's like, I'm not doing that. It's got flowers on it. I'm a man. I can't be caught dead in this thing. And you'll notice that at the end, he's got it like in his hand. It's become something he's very attached to. It's like, I think he wears it on his hat. Yeah. And he wears it for his wedding.
01:03:30
Speaker
So it's one of those things where like, this is actually very interesting for the nineties that like, she has a character who's like, he becomes so comfortable with that part of himself to the extent that he's able to write.
01:03:41
Speaker
That's very symbolic that he's, that is like him sloughing off the expectations of his father. And instead he's, choosing this life with this person who brings out a more complete version of him and that's actually that's a bit feminist guys like that's pretty red man yeah one thing is that that aaron's comments about wife and motherhood did remind me of is i feel like i should add a little caveat about the history of american western romances is that actually there are still a lot of them being published but by christian presses so yes
01:04:14
Speaker
yeah So there are actually a ton of Western romances out now if you're willing to read inspirational romance or interested in reading inspirational romance.
01:04:25
Speaker
Spoiler alert, they still treat women like they're bothersome necessities and the relationships are still transactional. Yeah. So, that was um yeah, so we're we're not going to read those, but...
01:04:39
Speaker
But we do have plans to tackle inspirational romance on the podcast. Maybe Sunday. Erin and Ingrid are like, let's do it. I think we should absolutely tackle that when our money won't support programs that like, I'm not really interested in putting my money towards books and publishers and authors and stuff like that, that are supporting things that I i think are harmful to other people. So can do that. How about we we go ahead and we do that after So we'll do that in like 2030. Yeah. If we're still doing the blog. If we haven't been censored and put in some kind of wanton woman gulag, then that's what we'll do.
01:05:19
Speaker
Yeah. but Oof, duh. On the note of the Wanton Woman Gulag, maybe we should wrap this up. Any final thoughts on these books? have more whorish things to do with my spare time. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I thought it was a great intro, Holly. You paired up a really great set because I think that it touched on some of the really big themes here without totally being overwhelming. Because I have a feeling the next one, are we doing the Mailerorder Brides, right?
01:05:45
Speaker
So next week... We're reading two from the early 2000s. So we're reading Silver Lining by Maggie Osborne and Night on the Texas Plains by Linda Brode.
01:05:56
Speaker
And that's night as in knigget, not as in the thing with the stars. Because if you look... night without the k on the texas plains you can't find it so okay the knigget on the texas plains monty python will be with us forever it's true as it should be as it should be it's true ah we don't need to talk about the toxic masculinity and the misogyny of monty python can but yeah let's we we have just we can only tackle so many things at a time friends yeah
01:06:30
Speaker
Alright, so that'll be that'll be fun. And those are going to be early 2000s, so I'll be curious to see how, if at all, they differ from these. I mean, we had an early 90s and a late 90s, so it could be. The Linda Howard could be very different from the Linda Brode, but we'll...
01:06:47
Speaker
so yeah Mark my words. Here's my prediction. At some point, we're going to see shift and the woman is going to turn it it. So like right now there are these like delicate flowers that need protecting. At some point, she's going to drive him nuts because she's going to be too feisty for him.
01:07:05
Speaker
So there's going to be that shift that not late nineties shift or whatever, where the women start wanting more than they're being given and I'll get all uppity. That's my prediction.
01:07:15
Speaker
Anyway, we'll see if I'm right. We'll see if that happens in the early, early 2000s. Yeah. I can't wait. Westerns. Yes. Because it definitely happened with swashbuckling pirates. oh That's our next bracket.
01:07:33
Speaker
Pirates. On that note, you can find our show notes at smutreport.com slash podcast. And we'll see you next week because we're doing it every week in April. And we'll be talking about more cowboys and dusty clothes and huddling together for warmth.
01:07:51
Speaker
And the building of American history, apparently. And the reframing of American history. We'll talk about generic verisimilitude versus... ah cultural verisimilitude everyone Ingrid will be fighting to stay awake oh come you had a great time in this conversation today did I did I don't know what happened anyhow until then keep it smutty folks that's my report