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S4E06: DACA's Ever Changing Landscape, with Admir Molic RLAW'24 and Miguel Tapia Colin RLAW'24
13 Plays1 year ago
Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor is joined by Admir Molic RLAW'24 and Miguel Tapia Colin RLAW'24 as they discuss the changing climate and uncertainty surrounding DACA.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction of Guests and Topic
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello, this is Rose Cuizan-Diazor, interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School, and this is Power of Attorney. Today, I am joined by two incredibly smart and compassionate and compelling students, Miguel Tapia-Colin and Agmir Molek. Both of them are second-year law students at Rutgers Law School in Newark, and they are actually
00:00:27
Speaker
still within the exam period and so I am so grateful to both of you Miguel and Admir for joining me today. Importantly, I invited them to have a conversation with me today about DACA or Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. Both Miguel and Admir are DACA recipients. I'll be interviewing them to talk about
00:00:50
Speaker
their background, why they went to law school, and where we are currently in DACA. Miguel, Admir, thank you again for joining us.
Understanding DACA
00:01:00
Speaker
Before we start, let me just explain a few things about DACA. Those who are listening to this podcast have a better understanding of where we are.
00:01:11
Speaker
DACA, as the two of you know, and I think many of those who are listening right now know that in 2012, President Obama issued Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which is a policy, and announced so that it would allow DACA would enable those people who enter the United States
00:01:31
Speaker
before the age of 16 who are currently in school had graduated and meet many other requirements to receive a type of prosecutorial discretion called deferred action. Deferred action or prosecutorial discretion is not new in immigration law.
00:01:49
Speaker
But what was different about DACA was that it was a policy that specifically targeted those who were people that we called dreamers, American dreamers. There had been multiple challenges to DACA along the way, and I'd like for us to just fast forward to where we are currently, and that is
00:02:10
Speaker
In 2022, we have about 594,000 DACA recipients. There is a new DACA rule that has been in place and
00:02:24
Speaker
replace the 2012 DACA memo or policy. And as we'll talk about later, there have been other new updates to where we are in DACA. But let's just leave it at that, and then we'll go back and forth about where we are in DACA.
Admir's Immigration Story
00:02:41
Speaker
What I'd like to do is just give you a chance to first introduce yourselves and tell me your origin story. So, Admir, I'd like to start with you.
00:02:53
Speaker
Well, first and foremost, thank you for the opportunity and thank you for your leadership, not only at Rutgers, but in your advocacy work. I think you can speak on both our behalf. We're grateful for everything that you do. So my background, my origins is I'm a war refugee from Kosovo. Kosovo is ethnically Albanian.
00:03:16
Speaker
During the late 1990s, Albanians were an ethnic minority within the former Yugoslavia. And Albanians are predominantly Muslim, about 85% to 90% of Albanians are Muslim. And there was ethnic cleansing that happened in the late 1990s, and a war broke out in 1998 and 1999.
00:03:35
Speaker
I was about five, five and a half years old. I was in preschool and the school that I was attending was poisoned through the water, excuse me, through the heating system. And my classmates ended up getting sick and that was more or less the last straw for my parents and they ended up leaving and embarking upon a trip that took them across Europe into South America and eventually into the United States.
00:03:59
Speaker
And then we went to the immigration system. We had no family in the United States. My parents didn't speak English. And it took us several years to get through the immigration process, but eventually our family was ordered deported and told to go back after several years of living here. And the fact that the family home that we had was burned to the ground and everything that more or less we had back home no longer existed because of the war.
00:04:28
Speaker
So my parents decided that it would just make more sense to stick it out and hope for immigration reform. And then for me, just growing up as a young kid, you don't really understand the repercussions of being undocumented because you're very naive. And as you get older, you start to realize the impact it has. And for me, the wake up call was the process of applying for colleges,
00:04:54
Speaker
where I remember sitting with my guidance counselor and just going through my options and having the grades but then just being told well a lot of these schools and at the time DACA was a relatively new thing and it was just realizing that you don't really have many options that your classmates do and that's just very disheartening especially when you're 16, 15, 16, 17 years old because you feel like you've done all the right things but now your options are you have to potentially start off at community college or whatever the case may be just because
00:05:21
Speaker
you don't really qualify for in-state tuition or you don't get federal financial aid or whatever the case may be.
Opportunities and Challenges for DACA Recipients
00:05:28
Speaker
And then you realize that you have so many more hurdles to overcome compared to your classmates, but you also realize how grateful you are that such a program was created because without a program like DACA, even though it wasn't perfect, it did give us a hope or at least some sort of documentation, a glimpse of the American dream.
00:05:48
Speaker
And then I'm sorry, I was just going to say then I ended up I ended up graduating with my with my bachelor's degree double majoring in political science and criminal justice and thereafter ended up getting my master's degree in public affairs at NYU. But the dream was always to go to law school, but it's just not knowing
00:06:07
Speaker
if I could even sit on the bar or what that outcome would be. So it was just always disheartening to think about potentially going to law school and then not being able to be in a licensed attorney. But, you know, things have more or less New York, New Jersey allow DACA recipients to join the bar. And that's just fantastic news for us. And it gave us an opportunity to fulfill our dreams of being lawyers.
00:06:34
Speaker
And I'm so glad that you're here, Admiral, that you're my class. I really appreciate it getting to know you this whole semester. Miguel, I'd love to hear your origin story as well. Thank you, first. Thank you, Dane, for having both of us talk about our immigration story and our experience at the stock of recipients. I was born
00:06:55
Speaker
in a small town in Puebla, Mexico. My mom was a trained teacher. She went through an equivalent program of a biotech high school where she was able to teach elementary school specifically pre-K and kindergarten. And my dad was a butcher by trade. We moved to the country in 1999 in search of
00:07:22
Speaker
economic opportunities and specifically my mom was very adamant of being able to look for educational opportunities for me. She really wanted to go to college in Mexico, but there was a lot of economic barriers as well as educational barriers that prohibited her from achieving that dream of going to college in Mexico.
00:07:48
Speaker
We moved in 1999 and I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware. I eventually faced the similar struggles that I'd near face where I didn't really know I was undocumented until I was 13 years old. And the DREAM Act was a hot topic in 2010. And that's when I started realizing all of the obstacles that I was going to face in the college admission process, but also just in life that I wasn't able to get a driving
00:08:18
Speaker
the driver's card and all these other things that I would have to face not being able to legally work, having benefits. And yeah, when DACA was issued through an executive order in 2012, it was really a blessing because I truly, while I am living in the country under this gray status and deferred,
00:08:45
Speaker
you know, action program. You know, I haven't really experienced the struggles that my parents as undocumented immigrants or other undocumented family members have experienced because I am able to legally work. I was able to get a driver's license. I was able to graduate from college and now I'm here attending law school.
00:09:10
Speaker
Thank you. I just want to say at the outset how brave you two are for talking with me today, for sharing your story with your stories, your background, and how the work that you're doing with respect to advocating not only for DACA recipients, but other immigrants who need some form of relief. And so I just want to let you know how much I appreciate both of you being here today.
00:09:35
Speaker
There are many things I'd like for us to talk about with respect to DACA. Maybe one way to start would be, one question would be how you both said that DACA has given
00:09:47
Speaker
It has given you status, a form of status that allowed you to obtain certain kinds of benefits, including employment benefits. And that's because you grew up here. You got here at a certain age. How have you dealt with the division between, you know, it was a bright line rule, right? And whereas lawyers to be, you understand when a law has to be, a bright line rule has to be set up. How did you personally manage that kind of bright line rule between because you grew up here,
00:10:16
Speaker
and who you are, you had this benefit and then you both mentioned your parents. I'd like to hear a little bit more about how you process that. So maybe Miguel, if we could just start with you. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly, I think, I remember the day, I think it was like June 12th and June 12th, June 15th in 2012, when I was sitting at home on summer vacation and the news came up and Obama was announcing it and I was just,
00:10:45
Speaker
ecstatic about this program and the benefits that I was going to enjoy. But as the day went on, I started thinking, oh my gosh, what about my parents? And it is something hard to deal with. But we are living the benefits of this program. And we're seeing our parents continue to struggle as undocumented immigrants. But I think
00:11:12
Speaker
The way that I've been able to at least reconcile that is that my parents have been very supportive and they've almost been like, it's you first, it's our priority that you are going to be doing okay and that you are protected under these programs and hopefully one day immigration reform, we can wait it out. You have a dream, you have so much potential and you're working so hard to it, we're supporting you and
00:11:38
Speaker
We want to see you succeed. And it's you first before us. And I think that's very
Advocacy and Immigration Reform
00:11:42
Speaker
admirable of them. And in a way, it helps a lot of my feelings. But I think there's a lot of frustration that still exists with the current status of our immigration system. Thank you. Admir.
00:11:55
Speaker
totally agree with everything Miguel said in regards to my parents' very similar story in the sense of both my parents worked hard to more or less create a middle-class life for themselves and did all the right things back home and then just had that all stripped away from them overnight based on their ethnicity and their first and last names. However,
00:12:18
Speaker
Just like Miguel said, my parents have always said, we sacrificed everything for you and your brother to have a better life. And therefore, more or less, we're willing to take on that burden as long as you guys make us proud.
00:12:32
Speaker
And I think I can speak on both our behalf. Sometimes that is a burden on itself because you know that you are on your parents' shoulders and everything you do is, in essence, you are being held up by their sacrifices. And especially when you're younger, that does take a toll on you because you try so hard to be that much better than everyone else because you know the struggles that they're going through.
00:13:02
Speaker
But like I said, and I think Miguel emphasized, it's that at the end of the day, you realize that your parents are making no sacrifices for you. And to be fair, when DACA was enacted, we were significantly younger.
00:13:17
Speaker
I don't want to speak on Miguel's behalf, but I'll speak on my behalf. I wasn't really thinking of what are the ramifications of other people or where was the line drawn. I just remember realizing that I had a shot at becoming somewhat documented and I ran with it. But I think what we could turn the picture to is what is happening right now, where
00:13:41
Speaker
a lot of advocacy to try to get the dream to get DACA recipients to become fully, either have the rights to become permanent residents and eventually the pathway to citizenship. And we see it now in the sense of where do you draw that line? Who should qualify? And you get a firsthand experience of those debates about
00:14:06
Speaker
you know, do we just focus in on this specific group of people who are currently enrolled in DACA or do we expand it out to the potential two to four million undocumented?
00:14:18
Speaker
potential dreamers or do we even expand that out to essential workers or does this all have to be encompassed into comprehensive immigration reform? And these are our arguments and obviously questions that have to be addressed, but they also do create that tension between marginalized groups. And it's very disheartening because you end up putting in essence yourself against your parents' interests or whatever the case may be.
00:14:48
Speaker
And that is something that we have to acknowledge and that does also take a toll on us because obviously we want to be able to have the opportunity to become American citizens, but at what cost.
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, as you both know, I teach immigration law. And in immigration law, I teach all the various ways that Congress made judgments about who was eligible to come to the United States through family, employment, diversity, or through some other means, and then those who cannot stay, and those who have a path to citizenship. And so within in Congress, there are, since 1952,
00:15:28
Speaker
multiple amendments have been made to the Immigration Nationality Act. There have been calls for Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform in order to address the millions of people who have been living in the shadows in the United States, including many of your parents and other
00:15:46
Speaker
and many others within our communities. And so far, Congress has not been able to act. Recently, to go back to what you're saying, Admir, about advocacy, there was this bill that many were advocating for to try to pass legislation during this, before this, quote, lame duck Congress. And while
00:16:13
Speaker
the Democrats who has control over both the House and the Senate, to try to pass something. And unfortunately, that deal, which would have created a pathway to citizenship for almost 2 million immigrants, failed. And it's really disheartening, and it is disappointing.
00:16:32
Speaker
So, particularly because it's unclear to me what will happen in the next Congress, given that the Democrats lost control over the House. I mean, it was not a big
00:16:48
Speaker
there's a difference of about eight people, right, that in Congress that is now on the Republican side, but it is still frustrating and disheartening that within this current Congress, it was not able to pass law that could have addressed, give you a path, both of you and others, a path to citizenship. So I want to explore that kind of that tension between
00:17:14
Speaker
that protecting the Dreamers, DACA recipients, and broadly American Dreamers with all those other ones whom Congress has said, well, we need to be tough on the border. We need to be tough on those who are entering here because of COVID. All of these different ways that Congress and other members of Congress have tried to create division.
00:17:38
Speaker
How, within the movement itself, I'd like to hear it because you're both involved with the Dreamers movement, right? United We Dream and other groups that you're part of. How do you reconcile those tensions within it? Because on the one hand, do you push for yourself and others only at the cost of others?
00:17:55
Speaker
or do you try to argue or advocate for something broader, even if it means that the law might never come to pass? I think from an advocacy standpoint, it's wise to try and advocate for all. Is it necessarily practical? I don't think that in the political climate that we live in, it is. I don't think
00:18:22
Speaker
It's the way we are so politically polarized. I don't foresee a pathway to assistantship for all 11 million of us. However, I think that we need to come to a consensus, to a middle ground at the negotiating table. I think realistically, it has to start with the dreamers and then expand slowly.
00:18:48
Speaker
Unfortunately, in negotiations, that's not the approach that as advocates, we'd like to take. But I think that is what it's going to come down to is that both sides do have to concede and will have to concede certain things that they may not want to. And realistically, conservatives and Republicans aren't going to get all the border control and all the border protections that they want. And the immigration advocates, we're not going to get immigration
00:19:16
Speaker
a comprehensive immigration reform that we want to, you know, I think we're going to have to scrape off something, scrape off, you know, certain, you know, the scope has to be limited. And I think on both sides. So I think that's the best approach going forward. Admir, you went to Congress a few weeks ago, tell us a little bit about the kind of work that you did in this area.
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Just before I get into that, into the lobbying that we did to try to pass the DACA reform during the lame duck session, I think it's very important to note that we're currently living in a country that has become very politicized. And far too often, I feel as if people on both sides of their political ideologies, it's sort of a
00:20:10
Speaker
We're living in a system currently that both sides want everything without willing to compromise and that unfortunately impacts especially marginalized groups and that goes even beyond the immigrant community because we also have to remember that very small policy changes
00:20:28
Speaker
make the biggest impact on these specific groups. And I think a lot of people have the luxury of sitting elections out or waiting for the perfect solution or the perfect time without realizing that the impact that this has on people's lives. And that is a huge problem. And even on the left, even with liberals, that they refuse to budge on certain things. However, they do have that. They do have the luxury of saying, you know what, you know, this policy is not perfect.
00:20:57
Speaker
I'm just going to wait until things are more or less are going to align and we can get everything in the negotiating table. But that does actually impact people and it impacts us directly. So we have to be very mindful of that. However, I also acknowledge that we have to be mindful that the decisions we make today will impact generations to come. So how do you find that balance? And the DC trip, I went with Forward Us, it was a group of us, we ended up
00:21:27
Speaker
In total, as a group, we met with about 12 members of the Senate and give or take about 40 members of the House. And this was on the negotiating table where forward us as an organization was willing to bring forward and working with Democrats to negotiate with Republicans to acknowledge that we do need border security. We do need to rethink
00:21:52
Speaker
the system in play at the moment. However, we also have to acknowledge that for DACA recipients and Dreamers, this is their last chance at potentially being able to provide the resources that they have been providing for almost 10 years. No, excuse me, for over 10 years, and that they are a vital part of the American Dream and that they are a resource. And it was just trying to strike that balance of
00:22:20
Speaker
We acknowledge that we need border security while also acknowledging there's a labor shortage, about three million in total as of today. And these dreamers are educated. They are in the workforce and they contribute to our economy. And if we give them the opportunity to fully pursue their dreams and become a part of that American fabric, they will help this country moving forward into the 21st century. And that is something that we really need to
00:22:49
Speaker
remember is that more or less the statistics show that nearly 90% have a high school diploma, almost half have a college degree. And we've been able to accomplish all these things with a million and one hurdles. So if we were able to have a level playing field, how much more can we contribute to this country? And how much more can we make America a better country moving forward and more competitive in the future?
Narratives and Perceptions in Immigration
00:23:16
Speaker
Thank you for that. So I want to follow up on what you just said here about how through the passage of this law that would give a path to citizenship for DACA recipients and dreamers, the communities will benefit, right? Because they've been a part of the fabric of society.
00:23:37
Speaker
On the one hand, it's an important narrative to highlight. As you said, many DACA recipients have college degrees. They graduated high school and they are contributing a lot to the economic life of many communities, certainly New Jersey. We have a big immigration population and
00:23:56
Speaker
Thankfully, as you said, ADMIR here in New Jersey, those who are DACA recipients may practice law, right? And in fact, in New Jersey, recently, the state legislature passed a law that allows undocumented immigrants to apply for professional licenses, so beyond the law decree. And here also in New Jersey, undocumented immigrants can obtain a driver's license
00:24:23
Speaker
And so there's a lot of support within our communities, but at the same time, that kind of the precarious nature of
00:24:34
Speaker
DACA recipients and not knowing what will happen in the future is one that we ought to be concerned about, as you're saying. So I completely agree with you there. It's important to, I believe, I strongly am in favor of a path to citizenship for DACA recipients and Dreamers and many other, and the millions of other immigrants in this country.
00:24:57
Speaker
At the same time, I heard you also then say, because DACA recipients are, it's a good immigrant narrative.
00:25:06
Speaker
And I'm interested in what you think about that, where we should pass it because they are the, quote, good immigrants. And what does that mean for the way that others have vilified the, quote, bad immigrants? I want to explore what that means for both of you and your advocates. And I'm pushing you to talk about that because it's real, right? I'm an immigrant myself.
00:25:31
Speaker
I guess as a as a brown immigrant, Filipino-American woman, I have to contend with many different stereotypes about who I am. And I'm mindful of how society imposes different narratives in all of us. So how do you both deal with the good quote good versus bad narrative of immigrants? Well, I guess I can start. So and then that point that you addressed is a great point. And I totally agree.
00:26:01
Speaker
And this just goes back to that DACA recipients and dreamers are a product of a bigger picture. We are the product of our parents, the parents who sacrificed everything for us to dream and to have the opportunity at the American Dream, to have that opportunity to become lawyers or doctors or
00:26:21
Speaker
essential workers, however, it also more or less sometimes we want to split people up based on categories and as you said earlier,
00:26:33
Speaker
We want to create this subgroup of immigrants who are just DACA recipients. However, that narrative, we wouldn't be where we are without our parents, without our community, without people supporting us who are also undocumented and who are also working two, three jobs to put food on the table and push us into these opportunities to be productive members of society and
00:26:57
Speaker
push forward this country. So I don't think in essence that we are the chosen group or we are that special group of immigrants who in essence can look at ourselves and claim that we're better than anyone else because at the end of the day we are a product of that system of people who for generations you can go back. There's always been a new wave of immigrants who come here
00:27:22
Speaker
And they come here with a dream and with an attitude that I'm going to do better than whatever I had in my home country.
00:27:34
Speaker
And I'm going to give my family and even my family and future generations a better life. So I don't think these are mutually exclusive where we can more or less pigeonhole a certain group of people and say, oh, but they're the special ones. I don't think that's the case because at the end of the day, we are a product of this bigger community. And then in essence,
00:27:57
Speaker
Data and statistics showed that a lot of the stereotypes and a lot of the fear mongering that does happen with certain media outlets or certain politicians, those are just factually wrong where immigrants tend to be less likely to commit crimes.
00:28:13
Speaker
immigrants are going to pay taxes, and I just think we have to do a better job of pushing that narrative and just showing that this is a very diverse and inclusive group of people that come from all walks of life, different parts of the world, and they are more or less contributing to the American fabric. Thank you. Miguel?
00:28:38
Speaker
Um, yeah, no, I agree with everything Admir said. I think this, uh, vilification of immigrants is wrong. It's factually, um, for the most part incorrect. Um, uh, however, you know, I think, um, this, this viewpoint or this argument that, you know, DACA recipients and dreamers are a special group, I think ends up falling on this whole fact that, you know, in a sense DACA recipients
00:29:07
Speaker
do have a protected status, to have all these benefits that if the program would be rescinded, what would the ramifications of all these protections and all these benefits, employment, driver's license, being able to exercise a law license, all of a sudden disappear overnight essentially, or over a short period of time. So I think while the vilification of immigrants as a group in general is bad,
00:29:37
Speaker
And while I think we all have something to lose, I think there's a special designation that is often confused with, you know, oh, DACA and preemers are better than the rest of them. But I think it's the reality that, you know, we all have these privileges and protections that if the program would, you know, end, there's this fear and there is this really a precarious situation where it's
00:30:06
Speaker
We are so used to being able to work, being able to drive without fear that all of a sudden we are back into this place of unknown. And I think that's where this special designation for DACA recipients and Dreamers is placed. Following up on what you just said, could you talk about the documentary that talks about you and other DACA recipients? Why did you participate in that documentary?
00:30:33
Speaker
So I recently participated in a documentary that featured five stories, five narratives of DACA recipients specific to Delaware that had some ties to Delaware. As someone who grew up in Delaware, when I found out about the DREAM Act and that I was undocumented, I became very involved in the local community in Delaware to advocate for the DREAM Act back in 2010. And then subsequently after its failure,
00:31:02
Speaker
to advocate for initiatives in the state of Delaware that would protect not only DREAMers, but also the greater undocumented community that actually ended up resulting in sort of a DREAM Act being established at the state level, but also a driving privilege card program. So out of that advocacy work, I was invited to share my story with four other individuals. And we range from undergraduate students who are
00:31:32
Speaker
Um, you know, finishing up their college careers to my story where I'm in law school to other stories where, you know, the DACA recipients are, um, full professionals working in, um, social work and, um, uh, uh, and also community advocacy and work. And also our parents where they fall in this interesting situation where they themselves are on DACA. Their parents may have.
00:32:02
Speaker
fix their status as citizens. And then they have children who are citizens, but they fall in this gray area of this uncertainty. So I was willing to share my story because I have become very interested in changing minds and hearts.
00:32:18
Speaker
I feel like that is a way forward. I actually became very frustrated with the lack of movement in our immigration work in the immigration system that I decided to turn my efforts to changing hearts and minds in hopes that someday that will change. Changing hearts and minds, that's not easy.
00:32:40
Speaker
And certainly in law, we think about what I, as one of the professors, I focus on using the law as a tool for creating social change and legal changes. It's not always as successful.
00:32:57
Speaker
in changing hearts and minds. And so I'm glad that you are also exploring another tool and that is through film and through documentary as a way to highlight and humanize even more, right?
Economic Impact of DACA
00:33:09
Speaker
The struggles and the life experiences of yourself and others who have similar, who have shared experiences. Admir, please share your further thoughts. Miguel said changing hearts and minds
00:33:27
Speaker
And I think that is just the perfect, the concept of changing hearts and minds has to be done through advocacy that shows not only diversity in people's backgrounds, but also diversity in where they work. But it's also very important to note that a lot of times
00:33:47
Speaker
We can't only focus on the empathy side of advocacy work, but we also have to acknowledge that there is an economic component to all of this and that in order for this country to move forward, we need to embrace our diversity. We need to embrace the fact that this country has always been that city on a hill where people can come here and they could more or less chase the dream and do something that
00:34:15
Speaker
maybe their parents or grandparents could have never envisioned. And I really think that we do have to, as advocates, we have to focus on that, where it's not only about empathy, but it's also about the fact that there is an economic benefit to us more or less being here and giving back to this country. And in essence, a lot of times in my advocacy work, I try to
00:34:41
Speaker
to explain to people that I've been here since I'm five years old, and this country, for whatever it's worth, has invested in me as well. And it would just not make sense feasibly for me to leave. It would just, and that's not what's going to keep this country competitive moving forward in a very competitive world in the 21st century. You can't invest in people and then give them the door. That's not economically sound. Yeah, so to kind of
00:35:11
Speaker
further that analogy on investment, right? There's a return on investment that many of us would want to see because there have been investments in the two of you and many others, thousands of others. And so we can think about that from the
00:35:26
Speaker
contribution perspective, what they're able to give back. So then there's some economic justification. There is the diversity justification, the morality of treating those who grew up here as Americans. You're Americans without the papers that say that you are Americans. So there are many different reasons why
00:35:49
Speaker
I am with you and I think many others are with you in pushing for the passage of DACA and a broader comprehensive immigration law that will incorporate everybody else here who are able to, who have been given back to society and continues to do so. There is just one thing, though, that you said, Admir, that
00:36:15
Speaker
There's a caveat for me. I would say I don't necessarily agree with it. And that is how we view this country in terms of openness to immigrants. I believe that this country was built with the hope that it would be welcoming and that it would be as inclusive as possible. But it has not operated in that way from the very beginning. Immigration law is one of them. As much as I would like to say that
00:36:42
Speaker
that the country has always been welcoming. That's not necessarily true, despite what we see here. I live in New York, and depending where I'm at, I can see the Statue of Liberty. She wasn't always welcoming, and here by she I'm talking about the United States, but there's always this hope and that this desire that the country ought to be
00:37:03
Speaker
welcoming of everybody because of what immigrants can give back to society, but also because this is who we want the United States to be. And as we all continue to advocate for inclusive immigration policies that we need to remember,
00:37:21
Speaker
that what we're doing is basically what we want United States to be about. And that is to be a welcoming nation for all immigrants, for all diverse individuals.
Pursuing Law and Future Aspirations
00:37:35
Speaker
Let's turn to law. Admir earlier you said law was always a path for you. You wanted to be a lawyer. You're both advocating in different ways, right? Why law? Why did you choose? Why did you both choose to ultimately become lawyers? What is it about? Well, first tell me since I'm the Dean right now of Rutgers Law School in Newark, why did you choose Rutgers to begin with? Admir, you start.
00:38:00
Speaker
Well, I also live in New York City. I've lived in Brooklyn, New York since I'm five and a half years old. And for me Rutgers New York was more or less the perfect school because
00:38:14
Speaker
It was just the perfect opportunity because it provided me an opportunity to get a scholarship. It's a school that has a great reputation and also it's a school that I felt had so many resources available to me and one of them being the minority student program. And a lot of schools in the Tri-State area don't have such programs available. And for me, that was a selling point because I knew I would have
00:38:40
Speaker
people with diverse backgrounds that I can lean on because at the end of the day, law school is a marathon and it is a tough marathon and you do need a support system. And I think I've definitely found that with making friends, even Miguel, me and Miguel have several classes together, we rely on one another. And so it's those resources that are available at Rutgers. Now to turn the page in regards to why
00:39:09
Speaker
I've always wanted to be
00:39:22
Speaker
visit attorneys and sitting in their offices and you being the only one that is able to comprehend English to an extent and seeing firsthand the impact and the power that attorneys have. And at that, when you're young, you don't really comprehend everything that's happening.
00:39:39
Speaker
And even today, sometimes I look back and it's just very disheartening because my parents are sitting there in a room with their six year old, seven year old son trying to piece the puzzle together. And obviously, I also didn't speak English fluently. There's a lot of terminologies that I didn't comprehend. And just seeing that firsthand, seeing the power as a child of attorneys and the power that they have over people's lives, that always made me
00:40:09
Speaker
want to be in that field and to be on the opposite side of the table and to be able to look at a young child or not even a young child but look at a situation where
00:40:20
Speaker
in essence, things are wrong and you have the power, you have the tools, the legal system to more or less fight for what you know is the right thing to do and you can embrace the fact that you are in a position to use the legal system to protect
00:40:40
Speaker
someone or something that you believe deserves to be fought for. So that has always been something that has motivated me is the fact that being a lawyer gives you the opportunity to use the law as a tool to fight for justice and to be a voice for people who you always wanted to be, that you always were seeking. So I think that's always been a thing for me. And even in my fifth grade yearbook,
00:41:07
Speaker
They had like, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite sport? What's your favorite band? I'm like, what do you wanna, what's your dream occupation? What do you wanna be when you grow up? And I remember a lot of my friends, they put astronauts or whatever the case may be. And I put, I was gonna be a lawyer on my fifth grade yearbook. So I've been banking on that since I've been 10 years old. So I am grateful for Rutgers for giving me that opportunity to tell my 10 year old self, you're halfway there.
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah, you really are. Congrats on that. Miguel, did you know when you were in fifth grade that you wanted to be a lawyer? I think that I kind of figured that out a little bit later in life. But looking back at my upbringing, I was always in a situation where I had the opportunity to help others. And I can provide an anecdote in elementary school for
00:42:00
Speaker
whatever reason, whenever there was an issue and they needed an interpreter because most of the faculty was Anglo American and didn't speak Spanish. And I went to a school where the predominant student population was Latino and Spanish speaking. For whatever reason, I was the student that they would call into the office and I would sit there and translate over the phone.
00:42:27
Speaker
whatever was needed, whether it was a sick kid and the mom or dad needed to pick them up, I would have the nurse basically with me asking me to tell the parents that they needed to pick up their kid or whether there was another issue where, you know, it wasn't as sensitive information that I could get involved. I would always always serving as a translator. And then eventually when I started doing advocacy work, I did see law and becoming a lawyer as a good way to ensure
00:42:57
Speaker
social change, but also to protect the rights of vulnerable communities, specifically immigrant communities. I was always very interested in workers' rights, just seeing how hard my parents were working and how at times they were exploited in their work, underpaid or working long hours and not paid correctly. So I think a mixture of my upbringing and my involvement in advocacy work led me to really
00:43:27
Speaker
to that desire. It led me to discover that desire to pursue law and becoming a lawyer. I really was excited about Rutgers, one, because of the affordability in the situation that we are in and being DACA recipients. Unfortunately, we don't qualify for federal loans and getting loans in general is pretty difficult. So
00:43:52
Speaker
making sure that an affordable school was definitely a top priority. But I was also very excited about how Rutgers is very, very interested in public interest and advancing law in a way that would protect all people. So that was something that was very appealing to me about Rutgers, was its interest in public interest law. And don't get me wrong, we still have classmates that come from a diverse background that are interested in corporate law and other things, but I think
00:44:21
Speaker
We all have a sense of responsibility, at least from what I see in classes, that we are here to be lawyers to protect the rights of everyone.
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah, in fact, so 60% of our student body, the first year entering class, 60% of them are first in their family to go to professional school or graduate school. And that's really representative of many of the students at Rutgers Law School, first gen people with diverse experiences, many from underrepresented backgrounds. And since you mentioned MSP, I just wanted to highlight
00:44:57
Speaker
that the MSP, this program is, as you both know, it's a post admissions program. Once you're admitted to Rutgers, you can apply to be in this program and the program provides
00:45:08
Speaker
the kind of academic support that many of our students need, particularly because many of our students are first gen, right? And so I'm glad that you're both in it and that you're active members of MSP. So what's next for you? The DACA rule currently allows those who have had
00:45:29
Speaker
who have DACA to be able to renew it, right? But the DACA rule is currently being challenged. Eventually, it'll go up before the Supreme Court. It may take maybe about a year and a half for it to go up there. And so meanwhile, you'll be in your third year. So what is next for you? How are you thinking about, or what are you thinking about in terms of the next steps?
00:45:58
Speaker
So in terms of next steps, I am personally very scared. I am very, very scared that, you know, an outcome in the courts is not going to be positive and that I will be able to, and then I am going to be going through one more renewal and the protections of DACA will end for me and I will not be able to practice law. So I personally am living in fear of a negative outcome.
00:46:26
Speaker
However, with that said, I am not letting that fear interfere with me getting through law school because, you know, I could be proved wrong and there could be something that's good and, you know, positive for us at the end of this tunnel. And, you know, I won't have to worry about whether or not I'm going to practice law. But for now, I definitely think that my sentiments and my feelings are a fear.
00:46:55
Speaker
And for me, more or less, I would have to agree with what Miguel just said. I think a lot of times, especially when we're speaking to our classmates and we're discussing what's next or the reality that going to law school is difficult. And then sometimes I think we should take a step back and realize that for some people, it's not a level playing field. For me personally, going to law school, I don't know what's going to happen to me in six months. My DACA card expires.
00:47:25
Speaker
on February 23rd or 24th of 2023. I could have a 10.0 GPA if I can't. If I don't have an employment authorization card, it does not matter. Moreover, realizing that
00:47:38
Speaker
your parents' lives are up in the air. For me personally, my mom's been battling stage four cancer for three and a half years. I live in a different state because I can't move to New Jersey because I can't get in-state tuition. So a lot of times for people like me and Miguel, I always wonder if we had a level playing field, where would we be? How much more can we push forward? Because for us to sit in those classrooms and to look our classmates in the eye, we've had to overcome
00:48:08
Speaker
10 times more hurdles than a lot of other people have had to overcome. But then on the flip side of things, I also realized that the things that we've had to overcome also are going to make us the best advocates possible, the best attorneys possible. And at the end of the day, we have to take every hurdle that's been thrown our way and turn it into a positive.
00:48:35
Speaker
And use that to become a voice that we've always wanted to find in others. So in regards to what's next, what's next is we have to push forward. We do what we can. We control what we can control. And we just continue to fight and hope that we are given a fair shot at the American dream. And then if that does happen.
00:48:56
Speaker
We continue to use the privilege that we have of being attorneys to then advocate for other people. And that doesn't necessarily just mean immigrant communities or immigrant advocacy, but in a broader sense that we continue to fight to make this country a better country for all. Just a book you both know. I want to be clear about this. You're not alone.
00:49:21
Speaker
I'm here for you and many of your professors and classmates and the staff at Rutgers Law School alumni, we're here for you. We are backing you up. And this is a setback right now, what happened in Congress. There will be a lot more people who will continue to advocate for a path to citizenship, for DACA recipients, for DREAMers, and many other people.
00:49:41
Speaker
It just means there's just more hard work to be done, but it's the right thing to do. Meanwhile, as you're studying, you're finishing papers or getting ready for next semester, know that you're not alone and keep focusing on learning the law and how the law can be a tool for social change because there are others around you who will continue to support you and be your advocate, work with you in advocating for a just immigration reform. Please remember that.
00:50:09
Speaker
because I fully believe that ultimately we as a country will do the right thing and push for a law that will enable DACA recipients and many others a path to citizenship. It's the right thing to do. Thank you so much for joining us today and I wish you both well and enjoy the rest of the break. Have a restful break and I am excited to see you back in person next semester.
00:50:40
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for the opportunity. The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers a prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.ruckers.edu.