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Ep 21 :: Marriage Redemption - 10yr Celebration :: Pt 2
33 Plays12 days ago
This week Adam and Megan sit down together to discuss their early marriage and conflict resolution. This is Part 2 in a series celebrating what the Lord has done since infidelity was uncovered in their marriage 10 years ago. Be sure to go back and listen to Ep 2, Ep 3, Ep 4 and Ep 20 for more context and don’t miss the weeks ahead.
One thing we love to do together is EAT! Ethnic foods are a favorite and when guacamole is on the horizon and we reach for a dipper, you better believe it's MASA Chips! They are perfectly crisp, lightly salted and a something we feel good about eating because it's 100% grass fed beef tallow and organic corn. Try some today with THIS LINK and use code MEGANRAFALSKI for 20% off your order!
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Music:
The Success by Keys of Moon
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Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi friends, welcome to Diggin' In. I'm your host, Megan. This is a place where we discuss the things that really matter in life. We cut through the surface to dive deeper. So pull up a chair because here we're Diggin' In.
00:00:17
Speaker
All right. Welcome back. We're sitting on the porch today. It's June. Well, you'll be hearing this in June, but we're recording this on a very rainy Memorial Day weekend. Much needed. Much needed. Not complaining. Rainy Memorial Day weekend. Rainy Memorial Day weekend. There's a second voice that you're hearing today.
00:00:38
Speaker
My dear, welcome back. Thank you. Glad you're here. great to be back. I feel like I'm here all the time, but yes, it's great to be back on. What do you mean? You feel like you're here all the time. um I live here, so I'm here all the time.
00:00:57
Speaker
you know You do live here. That kind of thing. Yeah, that's cool. Our home is our studio or your studio. It's our studio. Yeah. Yeah.
Celebrating 18 Years of Marriage
00:01:07
Speaker
Well, it's June 2026.
00:01:09
Speaker
twenty twenty six We've been married. We just celebrated May our 18th wedding anniversary. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.
00:01:21
Speaker
Only him for sure. Uh, so there's been special requests to bring you back on. How do you feel about that? Uh, I would love to see the receipts.
00:01:34
Speaker
You don't believe me. ah No, I believe you I mean, it's fine. I believe you. I don't know about that. Of course you believe me. Yes, they have been. and not just one person. People like hearing the dynamic, I think. It's fun. Yeah.
00:01:49
Speaker
Don't you? let I mean, when you listen to a podcast, what do you listen to typically? Conversation. Conversation, yeah, between, I like hearing dialogue. For sure. For the most part. But then there are some people that I do enjoy listening them.
00:02:02
Speaker
Monologue it. Carry an entire. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It's much harder. But seeing as how the nature of this is digging in, it's sometimes, well, you can dig in by yourself, but it's fun to dig in in a conversation.
00:02:15
Speaker
I would agree.
Overcoming Marriage Struggles and Redemption
00:02:16
Speaker
So we just celebrated 18 years of marriage and in June we're celebrating 10 years post our marriage imploding and God doing an incredible redemptive work in it. So this month is 10 years post all of that. Yeah. How do feel about that?
00:02:37
Speaker
Um,
00:02:40
Speaker
I mean, it's crazy. Sometimes it feels longer than 10 years and sometimes it doesn't feel that long ago. It feels longer ago. yeah If I had to say what's my dominant feeling on that, it feels like i it feels much longer than 10 years ago because it's been a lot of life between.
00:02:59
Speaker
Then and now. um I'm a very different person. You're a very different person. For sure. um But I'm thankful for it It's not what I would have designed. Not the path we would have chosen. But I'm thankful. I'm extremely thankful for it.
00:03:14
Speaker
The refining of it. Well, as Angela reminded us on Tuesday at our leader dinner, and as Pastor Gary often says, you have a mess that becomes your message.
00:03:24
Speaker
Oh, I haven't heard that. And there's a test that becomes your testimony. Yeah, you've heard Gary say that. I haven't heard that. Yeah, you have. Maybe. You have. You just don't remember it. It's okay. your Your memory is really good most of the time. um So let's talk about...
00:03:42
Speaker
That 18 years ago then. Yeah. How we met quickly, briefly. If you want the details of that, people, you can go back to episode four, I believe. What is love? up Episode four. Yeah, an episode four. And that was Adam's first time on the podcast. And so We shared a bunch in that podcast, but we're going go back and kind of over this month talk about where we've been and where we're going. And again, only by the grace of God and what he's done. And I think specifically what we want to get to talking about like this, this time we're going talk about kind of like merit while meeting each other, early marriage, infertility journey, and kind of like through that, how we found, you know, hindsight always being 20, 20. Now looking back, like, yeah,
00:04:26
Speaker
That really was a time that there was an opportunity, i say I'll say, for not division, but isolation and experiencing kind of grief and what we were going through separately. And those tendencies probably kind of dug in there in our marriage for each of us. And we didn't talk about them.
00:04:49
Speaker
And that that might may not have been the act like the absolute impetus, but that was probably the first real moment like super, I mean tragedy I would say in our marriage that we experienced together as a married couple.
00:05:03
Speaker
You know, there's the first year of like growing and all that good stuff. But anyway, we'll talk about that. And then um we'll kind of talk about like everything falling apart next time. And then the last one we're going to about the rebuilding, because I think that that's the most important piece is the actual practicality of rebuilding.
00:05:23
Speaker
So, yeah, that's where we're headed. Sounds good. Sounds great. Okay. Love it. Okay. So I want to hear your version of how we met because I already told my version.
From "Meet Cute" to Marriage in 14 months
00:05:31
Speaker
My version. yeah um Yeah, so it was march of two thousand and seven okay So, um, I was in my, um, first, first job and had, had some friends from college that lived in there, not, um, people that were like directly in my orbit, but I knew some people that were in that area. So that was a real gift, um, in some ways, um, just to be able to have a
00:06:07
Speaker
That you were in a new community, but you weren't completely alone. had never lived there before, didn't didn't know anybody. And that's, I mean, I wanted, I liked that. I liked that, you know, going to a new place. I didn't give that a ton of thought, but in that area.
00:06:21
Speaker
And had a friend um that had a girlfriend, a very serious girlfriend who they are now married. And um just oftentimes would want me to He wanted me to have a girlfriend that they so that they could double date. And not have you as a yeah third wheel. Yes, that's right. That or a third wheel or just have, I mean, a lot of times I think he didn't want, i mean, we didn't have that third wheel dynamic. So, yeah. So
00:06:53
Speaker
um
00:06:55
Speaker
there were some... poorly set up ah initial dates with people and I had just said, hey, you know, just stop trying to set me up with people.
00:07:08
Speaker
Like, you know, I'm getting the sense that you don't know me very well. Do you even know am? And maybe he didn't. maybe You said to me at some point that you said, do you even know me? Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker
With the people that he was trying to hook you up with. So it was it was great. And then so we, you know, fast forward through that to March, St. Patrick's Day. i was out um with clients, took clients out to dinner and had come home after after dinner, dinner ish. And i had an apartment and was very much a place where people would.
00:07:46
Speaker
gather prior to going out downtown and just kind of be around, um, which was great. And so had already come home and was like, not going to go back out.
00:07:59
Speaker
And, uh, my friend was letting me know that, hey, they're going to be just downtown and right around the corner and come out. And I was like, no, not really. And he's like, hey, there's a girl that I do want you to meet. And i was like, I'm really good. And he's like, no, she's really into church like you. So you'll like her.
00:08:18
Speaker
um So that was the that was the strong lead in for you is that you're really into church. I was really into church. um And so i was like, all right, you know.
00:08:31
Speaker
Glad he knew that about me. Yeah. um
00:08:35
Speaker
So I went, ah met people out downtown and did that and that was great. um Hung out for a little bit and then you you came onto the scene. I noticed you, I mean, pretty much immediately as I was coming down the steps and noticed you immediately. And I always say I noticed your eyes first because they sparkle.
00:09:01
Speaker
um But yeah, I mean, that was the kind of our first initial, like we we, I feel like you remember, maybe you saw me before I saw you. I'm not really sure. but it was the same moment. were the top the stairs. I was coming in the door. We locked eyes and I quickly turned away and like went about doing what I was doing. Yeah. Delivering my friend to her boyfriend. Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
and was like, nope, blinders on, Lord. I've sworn off men. Yeah, but then we we chatted upstairs, and this this like bar, restaurant had two levels, and we chatted upstairs, which was like the quieter-ish area. And so I remember that. I remember asking you, like I remember learning that you were in Young Life and leading that, and we had a connection there because...
00:09:54
Speaker
um my brother was in my brother and my sister but more my probably my brother he helped uh the ropes course at rockbridge and you were an instructor there so that was a cool connection and we had both been in young life so it was just you know we instantly hit it off pretty well yeah in conversation so it was great yeah but yeah i mean i I instantly liked you.
00:10:21
Speaker
You had a big personality for sure. um You were fearless. Yeah. And defense mechanism, survival mechanism, survival mechanism. Yeah. I don't. Yeah.
00:10:34
Speaker
I mean, it was, those were good qualities. I liked those qualities. I think those are good things. Yes. But yeah sometimes they can be expressed in an unhealthy way. Sure. Yeah. You out of anyone would know that.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Without question. But yeah, we hit it off really. It was great. It was awesome. Um, I immediately liked you a lot and and knew that I liked you. Um,
00:10:58
Speaker
um And we we talked all night pretty much on and off. And you were going to leave and we ended up walking to your car just like you talked about. You talked about this in the first episode. So went to um went back to your car, chatted for a while.
00:11:17
Speaker
someone hit a car. Saw someone hit a car in a parking garage. And yeah, we just really had easy conversation. It was so refreshing to be able to have a conversation with ah with a woman that, you know, I really felt like I knew who were. You knew who you were. I mean, obviously we're both young. Sure. and we're at different maturity levels at that time. But for that time, when I met you when I was 26 and you were 21,
00:11:47
Speaker
and you were twenty one You were miles ahead of ah women that I had met at that time in my life as far as maturity and who you are and who you were You were comfortable in your own skin.
00:12:02
Speaker
um and I was, I always say the most, the most attractive thing about you was that I knew that you loved Jesus and I could really tell that you loved Jesus. Like it was a non-negotiable, um,
00:12:17
Speaker
And I loved that about you. I hadn't met i mean, I had met Christian christian girls and yeah and done that, but no none like you, where I felt like it was a priority in your life and was just a very attractive thing about you.
00:12:34
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, I fell pretty quickly. ah Yeah. For that, mean, I think for me, and you recognizing that in me, like I was confident in who I was and, you know, all of that. I think that was totally because of where I was with the Lord at the time.
00:12:50
Speaker
i had just gone through, you know, a season of refining and pruning and, know, Just like, okay, Lord, I'm not pursuing the things that I think that I want. I truly desire your will and I'm surrendered to that. And I'm not going to try and make my desires your will.
00:13:07
Speaker
Like, I feel like the desires that you've planted in my heart are from you. And so therefore, you're going to provide those. But I think that every opportunity, you know, like any even like guy friends that we had been friends before we were i'm like, well, maybe I've been sitting around on my thumb, you know, like,
00:13:25
Speaker
waiting for you to do something Lord. And I would start pursuing a relationship in my own. Whereas when we met, I was like, I had sworn off dating. i was like, all right, Lord, I'm just going to focus on you and whatever. And then we met and I was like, oh what are you doing?
00:13:41
Speaker
It was good. Yeah. It was really good. Yeah. um Yeah. So we talked. We had coffee the next day. went out town for five days straight for a conference for work.
00:13:52
Speaker
And then I left. You were coming back into town Friday afternoon. And at the same time, I was leaving. And we were thinking that we were going to be able to meet up and at least say hey for 15 minutes before the yeah bus left. Yeah. And we didn't. We missed each other, which was a bummer.
00:14:05
Speaker
And then I was gone for the like three-day weekend doing a scuba instructor training. In Pelham, Alabama. Yeah, in Pelham, Alabama. Which I played in a Disney World Series in high school, which was interesting. yeah yeah um So what do anyway, we basically had like set only like seven days to just talk on the phone, except for that Wednesday or Thursday, I think it was, Wednesday, when you were at your you were in...
00:14:31
Speaker
at your conference and weve met sta yeah we met in a halfway point from home and Richmond and we sat in the car in front of a church and talked until like three o'clock in the morning. Yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker
So we saw each other then. you i think that we kissed. Oh yeah. We definitely kissed. I think it's funny that you don't remember that sometimes where I'm like, Oh yeah, we definitely did. Yeah. We didn't kiss first night.
00:14:57
Speaker
no No, we did not. No. We kissed then. yeah This was like four days after knowing each other. But because of the intensity of our conversations that have been going on, we were talking like three hours every night. was some passionate kissing. No.
00:15:10
Speaker
It was. not what i Well, I'm glad that you remember that. You would. Anyway. Yeah. That's no not what was. It's awesome. The intensity of our conversations led to a death of relationship in just four days. Not the intensity of the passion of our kissing. oh my gosh.
00:15:27
Speaker
No, I would agree with both of those. Those are both true. It's not either or, it's and. It's and, that's fine. Yeah, it's and. Okay, so anyway, all that to say, we built a very, it felt like a very deep relationship in a week.
00:15:45
Speaker
What felt like probably could have been three months of dating, we packed into seven days because the amount of talking that we were doing and because there was no, for us, for both of us, where we were coming from in relationships prior,
00:15:57
Speaker
There was no physicality that was involved. There was nothing like that to be a distraction. We genuinely only had verbal communication. And this was before, i mean, we were texting. You could text, you had text yeah capabilities on phones, but it wasn't like it is now. There was no like no emojis. There were no, you couldn't send each other photos. And it was like, yeah, I mean, we were past T9 word. Like it wasn't that, I think I had a Blackberry at the time. I, yeah, i think I still was on the QWERTY keyboard. I can't remember. Oh yeah. We were definitely on QWERTY. Or no, I'm the hit three. I can't remember.
00:16:32
Speaker
You had a trio. You had a trio. Oh yeah, i did. Hilarious. That's kind of funny. Anyway. So yeah. And we would listen music and talk. and We did. We hung out. It was really sweet. Yeah. All have to say, yeah, obviously that i would agree with you. The, yeah the lack of,
00:16:50
Speaker
of physical presence was really healthy. was really good. It was helpful. Yeah, it was great. And I was, it was nice because I really got to know you and like, and i liked you. I mean, i I say that in the sense of love and like, I was definitely falling in love with you, but I really liked you. i really liked hanging out with you. i mean, I feel like we've always had that dynamic, even through the worst of our times, we enjoy each enjoy each other's company. Genuinely.
00:17:18
Speaker
Genuinely, I do. I really do. You make me laugh. And um i enjoy... I've always enjoyed time with you and talking with you about things. Yeah. yeah yeah That's good. all right, so then we met March 17th.
00:17:35
Speaker
When did you buy the ring? I bought the ring in April. April. um So there was that. So, yeah, I bought the ring in April. And then you didn't propose until...
00:17:46
Speaker
I proposed to you August 1st. And then we got married the following May. May 3rd, yeah. So I was, that was very, like, I, thinking back, it's, it's crazy to think that in April I bought a ring for you. But, I mean. Not even after a month.
00:18:03
Speaker
Maybe a month. About a month. About a month. um Was when, yeah. Because I met your parents. old Ginger's Jewelers. I met your parents. We met March 17th, met your parents Easter weekend because they were in town visiting and you went to visit your sister and all that good stuff. Yeah. Also a big indicator. Yeah. You wouldn't have known that. But ah for me, i did not introduce...
00:18:27
Speaker
females to my parents. Yes. um And then now knowing your parents and having this conversation many yeah times ah like post, yeah they your mom's always like, I knew the moment he said, I've got a girl want be. have a friend. have a friend.
00:18:43
Speaker
But I would have never. Yeah, I mean, it honestly, too, like even as I started dating girls out of college or even really in, you know, I didn't, as we talked about prior, like I wasn't I didn't have very serious girlfriends, I guess, from my perspective, um until college.
00:19:05
Speaker
And that was a, like, part of my consideration was would I introduce this would i introduce this girl to my my parents as my girlfriend. yeah you know That was a big, big thing for me. so um The fact that I wanted them to come and meet you, it was hard. at They knew me.
00:19:26
Speaker
yeah So it was really hard for me. There was no hiding that, even though I thought I was guess i was thought i was being clever about it um But yeah, so that that was a big deal then meeting you. But that all happened very quickly. I mean, I'm glad it did. I mean, you talk about what Pastor Gary talks about.
00:19:45
Speaker
It's like, if you know, you know, you know. not You either know you don't. Yeah. um Dating for five years. Yeah. PSA, girls out there and guys. Guys out there. If you've been dating a girl for five years.
00:19:58
Speaker
I would say even three years when when they're in the yeah when they're in the timeframe of of marriage time yeah not I mean yeah there's a sweet couple at Noah's school right now and I'm like obviously they're gonna be probably dating longer if this is for the long haul oh yeah age wise that's what I'm mean that's i'm saying that what I mean if you're in adulthood even young adulthood yeah there is absolutely no reason that you should be dating and engaged, dating and or engaged beyond a year and a Two years. Personally, I believe that. That's a hot hot take. don't know if it's a hot take. i I want to be careful. I'm definitely guilty of saying things in absolutes a lot. so True, but this is one of those. But I would agree with that. I would agree that you you you probably know after six months. I would think that you know, you're starting to yeah you're starting to understand. What would be the point in holding back?
00:20:51
Speaker
No, I agree. I mean, I've talked about this quite a bit. I mean, that's the, I think that's the, that if you want to look at it from a secular perspective, even not a Christian perspective, I mean, that's the the fall of of moving in with one another. It's like trying that out. Like there is a sense in which you're dating and there are barriers to things. And if there is a desire of like, I really want to be with this person, marry live with them, think that
00:21:22
Speaker
that you know that fairly quickly. Maybe not. I mean, it doesn't have to be a month. That that was quick. Quickly can relative. Oh, yeah. But I knew in my heart of hearts for sure. But I mean, yeah, the secular relationship, I feel like, is a different conversation because that's just like there's so much there. But I will say. There is a hot take home from a friend of mine at work. The hot take is why would you ever even get married if you're secular? If it's secular. yeah Marriage is a...
00:21:52
Speaker
Godly, and biblical institution. Why would you ever do that? What's the point? It's very interesting. I love that thought. Well, yeah. and I mean, I mean i i don't know. an interesting thought to think about. Yeah.
00:22:06
Speaker
that I think we take it for granted a lot. 100%. My point, and I'll just say this and we can move on, as far as like, you don't need to be dating for years and years and years because it's like, what's the point?
Benefits of Brief Dating Periods before Marriage
00:22:18
Speaker
Either you do or you don't know. if they If you're dragging your feet, then clearly there's an indicator there that perhaps this is a no. And if you're, you know, or ah girls, I would say, from ah a lady's perspective, if you've been dating for a really long time and he's dragging his feet and not committing, like, that's a major red flag.
00:22:37
Speaker
big red flags on so many so many you know areas if it's a guy who's they've been together and she's not wanting to like again red flags why and then and i think you and i have both we've discussed this a lot like what kind of relationship do you have there that you're not talking about those types of things do you know what mean like when babies are coming the guys that don't want be in there or the wives that don't let their guys in there I don't know. So weird.
00:23:07
Speaker
I think it's, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's awesome. What's awesome? Being in there. Yeah. was great. Yeah, it was awesome. It's incredible. I agree. So I think it's weird when, just, I don't know, personal opinion, whatever.
00:23:21
Speaker
No, my personal opinion is always that I love being able to get to experience the things with you that I know no one else does. Right. i like the exceptionalism of that. And the intimacy that that is. Yeah. No one else gets to experience that except for the two of you. Correct. And that speaks to the oneness of our relationship.
00:23:37
Speaker
Correct. And the depth of that oneness. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Wow. We have digressed. This is really tangential. Yeah. I'm sorry. Squirrel. Squirrel. um Okay. So met, we got married and then the first year of marriage was just absolute bliss. Bliss. No issues. a single issue. No arguments. Nope. I was really. You're very gentle. Gentle. I was very level headed.
00:24:02
Speaker
I was kind of real easy going about things. Didn't have an opinion. was like, sure, whatever you want to do, you can bring all of your stuff in here. Oh my gosh, that is so funny. Okay, so let's talk about this real quick. I talk about that a lot, actually. Obviously, we're being very facetious. First of marriage was rough. It was wonderful. yeah you said I don't know if it was rough. I would say maybe maybe I was very... In the context of growing and we're talking about growth here. We're talking about growing as humans and like getting miles under our belt as far as or miles down the road from when you are in the honeymoon phase of marriage, which, yes, you're very much in the honeymoon phase of marriage and the first year of marriage for sure.
00:24:43
Speaker
I mean, and we both talked about in the episode four about how, you know, we both came into marriage with our own baggage. And it was like, you know, I had this past and I had this past and they were both struggles, but we both felt like now we're going be married. And so those struggles will go away. Get fixed. That's not true. Right. Um, you still have that baggage if you haven't dealt with it, um, coming into marriage. And I think that that's a lot where premarital counseling comes into play. Like talking about those things, like premarital counseling is not something to just check off of a box. Um, no, I mean, I, I know there's like, we were in, um,
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting because one of the things you were saying when you were talking about like quick engagement in marriage, that is one of the things that I was thinking about that I would maybe push back on is, is the premarital counseling and the extent at which you go through. Like we did premarital counseling and it was great and we love our pastor and was fantastic. But I would argue that more was needed to, I mean, it would have been helpful to go further in depth and have more time. For sure. For sure. I mean, talking about blending families, that was something that you and i we are so love struck and just like, well, this is a marriage between us and God and nobody else. It doesn't matter, you know? And that was something that they, we touched on and we did talk, I mean, at somewhat length. Yeah, no, it was really helpful. I mean, like one of the things of difficulty, like I remember pastor Tom saying we're in the middle of
00:26:11
Speaker
We were answering things, going through things, and i remember him saying, now, Adam, you know that you are not there to be Megan's teacher. you remember that?
00:26:22
Speaker
I don't. I do. But I'm sure I read it down somewhere. It stood out to me. Yeah. It's you know, you're not here to, like, be Megan's teacher of things. That's pretty funny because now, looking back, like, there are times where I've told you, like, I don't need you to fix this. I don't need you to teach me. And actually, when you do that, it's a turnoff and it doesn't help. I just need you to listen.
00:26:41
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Okay. You said sure, you can bring all your stuff in here. was funny. Yeah. So i mean there was a marriage, like you said, it was it was rough. It was a huge learning, two massive inflection points in my life to make me realize for the Lord to humble me and show me how selfish I was, was first first marriage, you moving in,
00:27:05
Speaker
to a house that I bought and and second was having Noah and having a child and being like, wow, a whole other layer of selfishness was revealed in that where you're like, man, I, i there's a obviously a willingness on on both instances to give of your time and you want to give to that. I wanted to give to my marriage. I wanted to give to my wife. I wanted to give to my son. But you also see your selfish tendencies. You see,
00:27:33
Speaker
you know that a lot and certain and i would say the biggest unraveling of that was certainly in that first year marriage and you coming in and yeah i'm i'm a i'm a bit of a particular person about certain things um especially when it comes to home like my our home and space and and just things in space and yeah i was Not, I was a jerk. I was a jerk about certain things when it came to that without question. Like i you were so excited to move in and I remember moving some of my stuff in. Saying it out loud is terrible. The women are going to be like, oh my gosh, she is awful. you're not that person anymore. I was literally like, yeah, you're not going to bring that. That stuff's not going to. That's not coming here. Coming in here. I mean, i mean i have things already. This is set up great.
00:28:25
Speaker
It was, and you're, I felt, yeah, you were just, you were so sweet about it though. I mean, you were hurt. I don't think you knew how to process that at that time, but you were definitely hurt and it was, I felt terrible. I'll keep my stuff over here in this closet. About it. Away from yours. Well, I mean, it was like plastic and But we had no money. i mean, I didn't have any money either. I didn't have anything nice. we had no money. mean, that's not true.
00:28:52
Speaker
I don't feel like we did. You had made, no, no, no, we didn't. But I mean, as far as having nice things, we like, yeah, I had, I had made some good purchases. I had done a couple of things. yeah Yeah. I mean, relatively at that time. Yeah. Sure.
00:29:02
Speaker
I mean, hello, we're 20 years in a marriage now. You're almost 50. I mean, we're at down the road in maturity and buying things and all of that. Right. Yeah. yeah I mean, I would probably be fine with Ikea furniture everywhere. You on the other hand, absolutely not.
00:29:17
Speaker
You would not be. That's not true. probably would. I don't. ah Maybe. Maybe. Anyway. All this yeah to say, the first year of marriage was interesting. And when I say it was rough, I'm really more reflecting back on like learning how to communicate.
00:29:30
Speaker
And that's what we want to talk about. Learning how to communicate and learning how to deal with struggle. And you know we talked about going into talking about the infertility journey and that. I think the biggest thing was, you know, I've talked about this before, ah fight, flight, or freeze. my general In general, my ref reflectionx or my reflex is flight. Like I'm like, yeah I'm out of here and I run. yeah Whereas yours is like, no, we're going sit and duke this out.
00:30:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's just, a I'm a product. i think that part of it is certainly my personality. I would say definitely is my personality because even out of my home that I grew up in, i am not, you know, my brother and I are grew up in the same home. My brother doesn't really love um conflict in the way that I do.
00:30:25
Speaker
I don't love conflict. I just, I don't mind leaning into it. It doesn't, I don't, in fact, I oftentimes feel like, okay, this is great. We're finally getting somewhere. yeah We're gonna get to the end of this.
00:30:37
Speaker
And in my younger days, I would say I was more interested in being right in those times. Whereas now I feel like I am i enjoy it in the sense of,
00:30:52
Speaker
i'm I'm going to hash out and learn, potentially learn a lot too. Like I'm going to be able to take in a lot of things, not just show that I'm right. Which is? Which is great.
00:31:04
Speaker
Oh. But I'm not like that anymore. Correct. Because I know how i used to be. It was probably insufferable in some ways. that well That's a testament to your walk with Christ. That's the humility that has grown, you know, for sure.
00:31:18
Speaker
And that was indicated in like our, one of our very first arguments at our house, which was you left. Yeah. And that was the, just the difference between us, my family, we, we, we dealt with things you either, you, stress was something i can just, you know, we didn't talk about, and it wasn't that I didn't have my mom's very touchy feely for sure.
00:31:46
Speaker
And my dad is, he's actually very, I mean, he's quite sensitive, but there was never, my My parents never glamorized like um drama, yeah like what you were dealing with. Like it was like, no, you need to take care of this. This is something you need to take care of and you need to face it. You need to face it. You need to deal with it. sure This is on you. And so we were very, we grew up in very different environments in that sense. for sure And so if we got in an argument, it was like the last thing I ever expected you to do was to leave. Yeah.
00:32:22
Speaker
And I talked about that. it Yeah. It really extreme was upsetting. oh yeah I was like, don't ever do that again. Yeah. Like I took my rings off, left them on the couch and I left. And this was before GPS and you could see like find my iPhone on where I was. Like had no idea where I was. If I was coming back, did I go to my mom's house? Did I? It was just the bizarrest thing for me to, I remember just at the time being like, who does this? Yeah.
00:32:46
Speaker
And i don't know, was that before or after the argument that we had in the kitchen when you were like holding my shoulders? you remember that? Yeah. I mean, it it was all during that time. Yeah. Which you also were like, yeah. Yeah. And that stems from, you know, and I think that that, again, this is the open communication piece of things.
00:33:05
Speaker
it's the first year of marriage, you know, you're thinking all things are gonna be wonderful and hunky-dory. And then when you do have a conflict, especially when it comes out of nowhere, I mean, i mean obviously it wasn't anything that we can remember now, unless you remember. you remember what we were arguing about? oh No idea. remember any of this No idea. And so it was probably, I'm sure it was obviously important at the time.
00:33:25
Speaker
So not to just completely make a sweeping, you know, whatever you're arguing about doesn't mean anything in the long run. It could perhaps, and we find that now, like the things that we do,
00:33:36
Speaker
I don't want to say argue about, but the things that we do have a passionate discussion about, um, oftentimes are extremely important when it comes to our family or decision-making or whatever it is. Typically it's our relationship that we're really getting into, to the depths and the nitty gritty of that and or parenting.
00:33:55
Speaker
Those are the two things that are
00:33:59
Speaker
right. Yeah. Can you think of anything else? I mean, there's a lot of things I think. Yeah. mean, you,
00:34:07
Speaker
we we it We get along and we agree on a lot of things. um I think you know just even like addressing like my particularness, I think one of the things that I was early on shown in our marriage, and I say now a lot, is that i Well, it's very interesting, i and I do say this, is like I went from a person who I felt like I could make all kinds of decisions on my own to where now I do need you to weigh in on things or I desire you to weigh in on things. I want your input.
00:34:38
Speaker
And I wasn't always like that. And I always say that like it's always a better... product whatever we're trying to decide whatever it might be with the two of us because you do have a different perspective you're not just like me and so I'm grateful for that because I'm always like this is so much better than what I would have done by myself which I always love it's a great gift that continues to give from the Lord in that sense yeah and I think for me the ah an overly simplified, but definitely way that I think we've grown in any type of conflict or confrontation or
00:35:17
Speaker
um
00:35:19
Speaker
disagreement, whatever it might be, is the biggest growth that I've seen in my life with the Lord. is It sounds really sad and simple, but it is the the approaching it with the mindset of i may I may not have this all figured out.
00:35:37
Speaker
Like I may not have this all correct and being open to hearing somebody else's opinion, which it speaks to my, like truly my Like that's not, it's kind of sad to hear that out loud, but that is probably the best thing that I've noticed. And that's not even in our relationship. That's just with other people in general where I approach it and I, and I've been softened. I've been humbled. Well, there's an arrogance, right? There's a pride. Yeah. and No, I agree. The Bible talks about that in Proverbs all over the place.
00:36:09
Speaker
You know, the pride of life and how. dangerous of a season it is if you're not open to the rebuke. if you and that's And so important of, you know, I'm thinking of Titus 2 that we're about to go into with women's ministry over the summer of like having people that are ahead of you that you're continually continually submitting yourself under in a Titus 2 kind of way to say, you know, I'm opening myself to for you to help examine my heart, you know, be a part of that refining process.
00:36:38
Speaker
and always having people ahead of you and have a willingness to be humbled to change your ways and all that good stuff.
Improving Communication and Conflict Resolution
00:36:48
Speaker
What do you think would be a thing that you've learned over time from confrontation? Yeah, so. Or conflict resolution, how we how you think you handle it better than maybe we did 15 years ago? Yeah, well, so I think that there's a lot that goes into the reason that I flight, like I run. I remember going back to that time that i just mentioned in our kitchen and our first house, you holding me by the shoulders. You weren't holding me down and you weren't doing anything in a violent manner at all. You were just more trying to like help me like snap out of it. But you had no idea at the time that that was the absolute worst move you could have done. i was in a corner and you were like coming toward me because you wanted to hug me and love me and like help me snap out of it. And I felt like,
00:37:37
Speaker
but you know I just felt so suffocated in that and it was that was scary for me. And so I think that for so long I learned to
00:37:51
Speaker
um, maybe not embrace my emotions, but really allow my emotions to lead my behavior. And so if I was feeling souff suffocated, then I would flail and, you know, like, don't touch me, don't touch me. i would leave. i would try and get out of the room that we were in. i definitely needed like exits.
00:38:09
Speaker
I needed my space. Anytime I feel closed in, in a heightened situation, I need my space. Like, I mean, you can see it in my life, right? Like I back into parking spaces. I always want to see kind of, it's like a military thing. I want to always want to see the exit. I always want to be.
00:38:24
Speaker
I want to know where I'm leaving, you know? Yeah. Um, and those are things are like totally in my subconscious that don't even think about. They just happen. But anyway, all that to say in the past, definitely and I would want to run. i wouldn't want to talk about things. I like, and I do, I've learned from that, that I am an internal processor in a lot of ways, especially initially when something happens, I need time. Sometimes it's,
00:38:48
Speaker
an hour, maybe it's 20 minutes. And sometimes it's a few weeks, depending on what it is that I just need to noodle over and pray about and, you know, wrestle with the Lord in and all of that.
00:39:02
Speaker
But the willingness to come back and have a conversation and reenter into it. Whereas before it was like, okay, how far away can we get from this topic, whatever it might've been, and please Lord never let it come up again, you know, which is not conflict resolution, that's conflict avoidance, which is never going to help. I mean, that is just, it's not like it goes under a rug and stays there, you know, or it goes into a corner. It just gathers more dust and gathers more yeah debris and becomes a bigger animal that you've got to take care of. And so I feel like I've grown in that tremendously, being willing, and I think,
00:39:40
Speaker
Being willing to be present is something that I'm learning to be better about in the moment, especially of conflict. And being willing to, like, okay, I need right now space and time alone, but I know that you need right now to be in the conversation and at least try and hash some of this out. So I have really tried to be willing to be more present Not just like, I'm going to pacify you be by being physically present, but mentally I'm like thinking about the grocery list or whatever else in my head, but I'm pacifying you by being physically present, but like actually being mentally present too and listening and being willing to see it from your perspective and not just like, no, you're wrong, but I'll let you get there eventually. And I'm just going to sit here quietly.
00:40:29
Speaker
That's pride in my own heart. And also being willing to, as we're having a conversation, pray and ask the Lord to examine my heart and to reveal to me by the Holy Spirit what areas of my life need refining.
00:40:46
Speaker
Whereas before, i would not do that. I'd be like, you're the buffoon. You're the one with the problem. I mean, I never obviously said that to you.
00:40:58
Speaker
um So yeah, I think we've grown a lot in that. Yeah, I think we, I mean, i would say in the last probably three years, maybe even shorter, two years or so, I think we've had exponential growth in that. Yeah. From where we were. We've we've had growth over the years, but it was kind of like slugging it out. yeah, yeah.
00:41:21
Speaker
And we would have a lot of steps forward and then we would take a lot of steps back. And for both of our faults in where we were.
00:41:32
Speaker
um But I do feel like we have been able to get through. We're able to have disagreement and work through that much better.
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think that we ever have for sure the way I feel about it. I mean, i there's times where
00:41:49
Speaker
just because I got so accustomed to it. i and there were There's a ah bit of time here of late, like I said, in the last couple of years where I'm like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like you're going to get upset or whatever it might be. And you you don't, you know, we just like work through it, which is really refreshing and great. By the grace of God. Yeah. I actually find myself, I feel like we get into less conflict sometimes. Yeah.
00:42:13
Speaker
Because of that. and And not that we're like wearing... primrose glasses or Pollyanna's and like everything's great. i mean yeah I mean, we still have disagreement for sure. But and i I feel like we work through it better.
00:42:26
Speaker
of And depending on where we are in the seasons of ministry, you know, when you're leading a group of men or I'm leading a group of women that. Yeah. Spiritual warfare is a real thing and I think that we both learn to let people in to our lives and you have a group of men that you meet with regularly. I've got women that I talk to regularly and share like I really need prayer in this area. oh yeah We're really struggling with this.
00:42:57
Speaker
Having a community of believers around you. Yeah, mean, how many years have we, did having those seasons where like, gosh, it seems like every time we're like doing good things, you know, to do good things outwardly.
00:43:14
Speaker
Serve. Internally we had really miserable times sometimes inside the home where it'd be like, and then for me that's really difficult because I feel like a fraud then. I feel like right I'm trying to encourage other men in their marriage and loving their wives. I mean sometimes it's convicting, I mean a lot of times it's convicting, yeah but it also can feel a little bit like a fraud because I mean, I think there is a sense, which we've talked a lot about in the church, where it's like, oh, you have everything together.
00:43:45
Speaker
I never really, i would say, trust me, I don't have this all figured out. It's a mess at home. Yeah. But it does, it can make you feel fraudulent in that sense yeah at times. But then I think we did, and I think you were, ah i know that you were the
00:44:03
Speaker
stronger leader in that sense of like, Hey, like we're gonna have opposition. We need to pray about this. We need to ask for prayer. We need to expect the opposition and not be surprised by it and be prepared and you know, let it shrug off our back, which was really healthy coming from you.
00:44:23
Speaker
um to me, ah felt like that was really helpful for me to see that in you. And hear that. And then we have, we do pray we do expect opposition. You know, we do ask for prayer. or We do ask for unity. We do, I think, fight more so for unity. I think maybe even in some senses, like, um put our weapons down a lot, too. Yeah. In those moments where we're like, all right, I'm not even going Yeah.
00:44:48
Speaker
I'm just, I'm not going to, cause it's tough right now and I'm not going to do that. So I think that's helpful. Which is humility. And I, I would say that is one of my big struggles for sure is being willing. Like I know in my heart, I just want to go give you a hug. I just want to say like, I hear what you're saying.
00:45:06
Speaker
I need to process this. I want to have that connection with you. And I don't because my pride gets in the way. It's awful. Yeah. You know, I mean,
00:45:18
Speaker
I have done it a handful of times probably, but that is a struggle for me. yeah I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit in the moment for sure, but I'm still unwilling to submit at times, you know, even in that.
00:45:33
Speaker
because you have a desire for dominance. I know. It's so bad. Well, it's the fall. I know. I know.
00:45:42
Speaker
But those are those moments where I have, I'll say to you, I'm like, this makes me so mad every time. Like we should be ready for this. Like it's Tuesday night. It's Tuesday morning. Like we're going to, or it's Monday night. It's Sunday. You know, like those days, Sunday to like Monday or sorry, Sunday to like Tuesday afternoon, there's the high likelihood for conflict.
00:46:07
Speaker
Yeah. Over literally the dumbest things. Over nothing. I know. And that's why I'm like, why won't you just submit? Why you just, why do you have to dig your heels What's the line? How's this going to work if you don't listen to me?
00:46:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. um
00:46:23
Speaker
What's the name of that movie anyway? The Notebook. No. What? It's not The Notebook. Yes, huh? No, it's not. Yes, huh? Because he says to her, he's like, how's this going to work if you don't listen to me? No, it's not. Yes, huh?
00:46:35
Speaker
It's not. It's the movie Open Range with Kevin Costner and Annette Bening. Never seen it. And Kevin Costner at the end of the movie with her, he's telling her to do something. He's telling her to go back.
00:46:50
Speaker
They're like riding on their horses. I think you have to tell me that scene. Yeah. And he goes, and she's like, no, I'm going to come and I want to go. And he's like, how's this supposed to work if you're not going listen to me? Yeah. I'm pretty sure. It's the greatest line. Yeah. I'm pretty sure Noah said it to what's her face in No, it didn't happen in the middle. Foot cramp.
00:47:09
Speaker
Yeah, didn't happen it totally did. Okay. See conflict and the resolution is we're both right. i' no You can.
00:47:19
Speaker
Yeah. don't I don't agree with that. Okay. Let's briefly talk about infertility and just like going through that.
00:47:31
Speaker
Yeah, let's briefly talk about that. Yeah. I just, what I'm getting at is the communication part of it. So we found out in jul June, it was like spring spring to summertime of 2010 that, you know, at that point we had been married two years.
00:47:50
Speaker
We weren't
00:47:53
Speaker
Not trying. We weren't not trying, we weren't actively trying. And we were not using protection. we were just trying to you know be smart about things. um And so, you know, my skepticism of the medical industry started a long, long time ago, but suffices to say, I was not going to a regular annual checkup like her an insurance company would cover for a woman.
00:48:21
Speaker
because I just didn't see the need. Um, and so we were at the point where we were like, you know, we should probably, i mean, this is what women do nowadays, at least at the time. That's what it was kind of expected was that you would, you know, do quote unquote family planning with your, yeah, I don't like that. Gynecologist, neither of us like that, but that's what was happening.
00:48:44
Speaker
That was the norm. Yeah. I mean, the thought was, yeah, that you hadn't been, and it would be wise to go and, And I feel like, too, i want to say that we kind of were starting to try a bit and it was like nothing.
00:49:00
Speaker
Yeah. i I feel like i don't know that was part the preemptitude. I can't remember. We had talked about it and then remember I was like, I should probably go to the doctor and just like check things out because at the time my cycle was not, it was regular-ish, but it wasn't. Mm-hmm.
00:49:17
Speaker
super regular um and that's like a whole conversation but suffice is to say i went to a regular got established with a regular gyn whom i absolutely loved dr martin she was incredible she's the best um And she was super sweet. She, you know, we went in and it was like, did an exam and all the things. And she, we went back to her office and she was like, so talk to me, what's going on? And we were like, you know, we should, we want to start a family. And she asked us some, you know, like family planning methods that we were using, which we weren't. um
00:49:57
Speaker
And she said, you know, i what what would, how old would that have been made me? 23 maybe? 24? Yeah, 23. Is that right? No, we got married when was 22. We met when I was 21, married when I was 22. Oh yeah, you've been 24 and I've been 29. Yeah. That's right.
00:50:14
Speaker
Because Noah was born when was 30. And yeah. So she was like, yeah, so all things being normal, one would have slipped the goalie by now. Like you should have accidentally gotten yeah pregnant and at this point. Yeah. And so she was like, let's just, I'm going to send you for some blood tests at that point and ultrasounds in town. So we did that locally. And then we came back in for a meeting with her and she was like, you know, I'm seeing these numbers and this and that and the other. We asked about Clomid because that was the big thing at the time. you know, what about Clomid? Because I had heard other people talking about that to help them have a regular cycle. And she said, well, what that does to your body, your brain is already doing in hyperdrive. So you're already like, i can't do that with for you. And so she was like, let's send you to this specialist, a friend of mine from, you know, grad school and whatnot. And he was a endocrinologist. Yeah, but what a ah reproductive endocrinologist. Yeah, specifically at Martha Washington. Yeah, control at UVA. And so we went up to UVA, met with him, also incredible. i think Dr. Bateman, was that does that sound right?
00:51:21
Speaker
I can't i don't remember. I remember. remember him being very nice, very smart. And extremely generous with his time. Very practical doctor. Like he was not a... Yeah. um what is the word? I don't know.
00:51:35
Speaker
He didn't believe in like intervention. Right. He was conservative yeah in that sense. Yeah. So he, but he spent like three hours with us. We were there for a long time. Yeah.
00:51:46
Speaker
And we went together, which was great. Drove up. And, um, basically was like, you know, 0 to 5% chance. That's what I always remember. Yup. We're not being like, what?
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah. Zero's a part of this. Yeah. Zero's a number in this. Pretty much no shot at getting pregnant. Conceiving. alone yeah And at that point, we had not done the genetic testing. So he did not know that I was pre-mutation carrier for Fragile X. So that was not a factor of the conversation. we had that conversation after the fact. Because part of what we did there was genetic testing and like all the blood blood work. yeah It was a ah bigger blood panel. And so all of that to say, he's the one who ended up diagnosing me with premature ovarian failure, which basically meant that I was going through menopause at the age of 22.
00:52:39
Speaker
You should have had billions of eggs and you had like thousands. If that. Yeah. Yeah. well Hundreds is what he, yeah, I feel like I remember him saying. So anyway, so, you know, we talked about doing like harvesting eggs and he said with a number of eggs that are in there, they have a much better chance of surviving naturally than pulling them out and doing things in a lab, blah, blah, blah. So we explored all of that and he basically said, going send you home with the blessing of try for a year and we'll see what happens after that and we can explore other options. And so we went home, that was around June slash July and I just remember for myself going into this like deep depression. because I was devastated with the news that I probably wouldn't have children of my own.
00:53:29
Speaker
And i I knew that that was a promise that the Lord had given me.
Infertility Struggles: Emotional Impact and Going it Alone
00:53:33
Speaker
And it was hard. Yeah. You were going through your own processing of that. But i what you showed me was
00:53:44
Speaker
this stoicism, I would say. I didn't see you cry. i didn't see you really upset in the sense of like, and because I know you, you're emotional, you're a sensitive guy. You aren't afraid of showing those emotions. And so it was hard for me to see no emotion from you in that because it felt like I don't know. I think probably in the back of my head there was a little bit of like, probably felt like judgment from you that I couldn't conceive. Not that I think that that was actual actually the case, but that was, you know, the in the darkness of my mind, that was those were the types of lies the enemy was sowing.
00:54:25
Speaker
So what was going on for the men out there listening? What was going on in your mind in receiving all that news and i'm thinking about the future?
00:54:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I looked at my role in that at that time to be supportive of you and to listen and try to learn all that was going on. There was a lot of medical terms and I'm not a doctor, so i was trying to listen and pay attention to those things. And you your your tendency is to drive like really deep into something to understand it fully, which is great. So you were into all the anything you get your hands on about reading all those things. Right. And so I knew that that's how you needed to process those things. And
00:55:14
Speaker
um for me, yeah, we talked about having five or six kids. I love kids. I love big families. i always wanted a big family in my heart. I desired that. And so it was devastating. It was really difficult for me, but i felt really
00:55:37
Speaker
ah guilty of showing any of that type of emotion because I knew you were already in a really bad spot. Like I remember there were days you just like wouldn't come out.
00:55:50
Speaker
You know, I remember weekends I'd be out working in the yard all day and you would just like stay, hold up, not wanting to interact with the outside world or me even really. And um i didn't know how to Do anything other than just be there to support you not try to fix i mean if anything I felt like that was a I look back and I'm glad I didn't try to fix anything, but that because that would have been my tendency is to how can I fix this for you?
00:56:23
Speaker
um But I think I was even more reserved because I didn't want to make you feel bad. I didn't want to make you feel exactly what you just said. i didn't want to make you feel there was nothing you could do about it. yeah I didn't look at it as like your fault or anything. I think if anything, I was wrestling with things with the Lord on what this was about. I mean, I probably processed it in ways of like sinful guilt as well. Like this is a punishment for for my behavior or things that I had done in my past even before you. and
00:56:58
Speaker
but I didn't want i did not want you to feel bad I didn't want you to think about me or like I was upset yeah like oh so I'm gonna fall apart you know in front of you and you're like you know I just didn't see that as very productive or helpful to you when you're in in such a bad shape so in retrospect it certainly would have been probably better for me to try to communicate that with you, but I just didn't. I just chose not to communicate any of that or even ask questions like, yeah hey, can I? Because I just, I was really, i just remember being very sensitive about not making you think at all that I was like upset with you yeah about it because it was just really hard to know.
00:57:46
Speaker
And you were very unpredictable at that time of like, yeah, what was a good day, what was a bad day. There were times like you would be really high, like really ah high high, like almost like, oh, okay, like she's in a good mood today. This is great. you know And then there were times where it was like, you didn't I didn't know how to react because,
00:58:06
Speaker
it was a lot for you to process. And I knew you felt, i you had told me, i knew you felt, you shared what you just shared about, you know, I feel like the Lord really put this on my heart to be a mother and a wife. And I can't do that now.
00:58:21
Speaker
And why? And I knew you were really struggling with that. so Well, and I struggled with my own sense, ah too, of yeah my passion and choices that I made. And why would the Lord not give us you know children? Maybe we're both unfit parents. And you know this is just a result of His judgment over our lives and our you know His hand of judgment. and yeah Yeah, for sure.
00:58:42
Speaker
So that was just how I... Processed it. I mean, I think I feel like I remember one time you being like, aren't aren't you up so upset? We had a couple of those. I remember being like, yeah, of yeah, of course. But.
00:58:58
Speaker
But you didn't communicate that on an ongoing basis, which I mean, now, you know, hearing and and we've had this conversation, obviously plenty of times before now, but I remember having that conversation with you and asking.
00:59:12
Speaker
a couple of times, like, are you even upset about this? You know, in a more like, like I just did, does this even affect you? Like, what are you thinking? And I remember we used to go to a pumpkin patch that was kind of, you know, in between where your sister lived and we used to live and we would meet her family. they had three kids and we would meet there and we would do pumpkins and we would, you know, have a great afternoon with them and they go our separate ways. And I remember that year taking pictures and just so longing to have a baby, you know, and.
00:59:51
Speaker
it was like ah a high and low, you know, it was like so a wonderful high being with your sister and her husband and their kids and having such a great time with them. But at the same time, having this hole, gaping hole in my heart. Um, and definitely, I mean, we, we each had our own medication, if you will, at the time of just like how we coped with things. Um, and that was not to communicate, you know, like, um,
01:00:19
Speaker
we would go to our own corners and I think looking back that certainly is one of the
01:00:27
Speaker
one of the tools that the enemy ended up using in our marriage to keep us siloed and not allow us to share our true feelings about certain things because we had that fear of what the other would think instead of giving the other the opportunity to communicate what they thought, you know, and having their response to that. So instead of being completely splayed open and, you know, naked before one another in that sense, We weren't.
01:00:54
Speaker
And so there was that was a sense of secrecy. its It was a sense of dishonesty with one another because we weren't fully sharing you know what we were going through. so I remember October being really hard. And then I remember specifically kind of the breaking point, at least for us, when I really for me, I'll say when I really saw you.
01:01:15
Speaker
break down and be emotional. And like, while it broke my heart to see you that way, it also was such an incurt and encouragement to me because I was like, okay, this really does matter to him. Like he really does care and he is processing it. And it's not like, Oh, say lovey. Yeah, it's fine. Kids will come when they come and no da da da da because it just felt like,
01:01:35
Speaker
You were unfazed by it, but it was when we went to that New Year's party. It was a New Year's Day party that a friend of ours was having. And so it was just like an open house, come by for brunch. And um it was families that were invited. and we went and there were kids everywhere. And they were just like, some were crawling and some were running. And it was a little bit chaotic. um But I remember at one point you were like, hey, like I'm ready to go. We need to go.
01:02:04
Speaker
do you remember this? And so i was like, okay. And ah you know New Year's Eve was the night before. i was kind of tired anyway from being up late. And you know who knows what we did that year. But anyway, I remember...
01:02:19
Speaker
Being like, okay. And so we go out to the car and as soon as we got in the car, I could tell you were like emotional and you were upset. And I was like, what's going on? And you were like, I just couldn't do it. Like you just, you let it out at that point. And it was like, whoa And you're like, I just can't, I can't with all the kids. I just couldn't see one more kid go by me and just think that like that I might not have one, you know, and it just, it it was a flood of emotion and a flood of words that came out. And for me, that was such a huge blessing because I was like, finally, I know what's going on with you in this. And I felt like, cause I felt like I was struggling and in isolation and alone. And I was because we weren't fully, know,
01:02:59
Speaker
And at that point I felt like now we could struggle together and I felt like I wasn't alone, you know, and suffering in suffering and silence. Even though I had like a group of Bible, a sweet but Bible study ladies that I was with and there were times where I would show up but I was like, I got nothing. Like I'm present in in physical sense but I am not here, you know, and they would just pray over me and love me through that and...
01:03:23
Speaker
So I definitely wasn't truly suffering alone, but where it meant the most in our marriage, I felt like I was. Yeah.
01:03:32
Speaker
Yeah. was, I mean, ah just, I don't know if I'd do it differently. I think I would have probably communicated more, for sure. i would have talked to you about it.
01:03:44
Speaker
But we were real, i was still really young. we' were still learning each other in many ways what that looked like. and um But yeah, I was definitely hiding in that way, for sure. But yeah, it was it was tough. It was hard to know. It was a hard season, for sure. How do to go through that.
01:04:07
Speaker
Yeah, and you would like lean in and do things where I'd be like, oh my gosh, are you sure you want to do that? Like you would be a part of like the care ministry and stuff for like new babies and like planned baby showers. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, yeah you remember that? yeah That was even after Noah, um where so I remember some people being like, are you sure you want to do this? And you I remember you were like, no, this is like really, this is good. This is really healthy. Yeah.
01:04:30
Speaker
Because you did go through a a phase where I do remember you being angry about like birth announcements and stuff like that. like not yeah you just No, no. not There was a hurt. It was a hurt. yeah It was a hurt, for sure. And so that was... I didn't always know how to navigate that either. Yeah.
01:04:50
Speaker
Because I was excited for whoever. Right. But I knew that was painful for you. Sure. so it was hard to know. Yeah. Which is, I think, normal because it is like a it is like a death in some ways. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
01:05:05
Speaker
The loss of something you never even had. But it was the. Yeah. the picture of what you thought you might have kind thing yeah yeah so that was new year's day and i think it was maybe 10 days later maybe a week later not that much so really was before your birthday yeah for my birthday yeah and you were getting ready for work one day well we were both getting ready for work one day yeah and it was in the morning and i was like i'm just gonna take take a test
01:05:38
Speaker
And so I did. and I actually, i went back and listened to one of the earlier episodes. ah I used to, remember talking to Dr. Martin and being like, I'm going to go broke buying pregnancy tests. And she's like, girl, just go to the dollar store. They're all the same. If you get a positive, take another one. If it's positive again, great. And we'll go from there. But you might get a false but positive, blah, blah, blah. So i was like, all right, fine. So, cause I was taking them all the time.
01:06:03
Speaker
Yeah, i know. Because my I wasn't having a regular cycle, so it was hard to know. you know And then i remember when I would get my cycle, it was like i would that, talk about waves of anger, i would be furious. like As soon as you know there's always already the hormones of that you know monthly cycle happening.
01:06:19
Speaker
But I was so angry because it meant I wasn't pregnant. um But anyway, I bought, when i went back in my coupon clipping days, I bought a coupon for the clear blue test. And I was like, I'm going hold on to this one. This one's going to be when I really think that I might be pregnant. And that was the one I used that morning.
01:06:38
Speaker
And you were in the shower, and I took the test, and I was like, Adam? And you thought what? I thought somebody was attacking you. Yeah. You thought somebody broke into our house were like, what? What's wrong? And I was like, just took a pregnancy test and it's positive. That was awesome.
01:06:57
Speaker
And I was like, cried, immediately called the doctor and was like, I just took a pregnancy test. And I'll never forget her nursing assistant, Meredith, was a hoot. She was so fun. Yeah, great. Loved her too. but They were like this dynamic team. And I remember calling and I got her on the phone. i was like, we just took a pregnancy test that says positive. And she was like, oh,
01:07:17
Speaker
Oh my gosh, okay. All right, we're gonna be cool. Calm down. We're gonna stay positive. This is wonderful. I can't wait. But we're also gonna, we're gonna be good. Okay, we're gonna have you come in and we're gonna do a blood test, because she like wanted to go about it and make sure. and that wasn't something that everyone did, but because of our situation, she was like, let's have you come in and do a blood test and we'll go from there.
01:07:37
Speaker
And so we did and like a couple days later, it wasn't that day, but we went in a couple days later and it was for real, for real. And we were over in the moon and I remember it was my birthday dinner. We went to a restaurant in in our hometown and my mom and sister and my uncle were at dinner and we had the ultrasound that I was like, hold on, I need something in my purse. And I pulled it and then I showed him and they were like, oh,
01:08:07
Speaker
It was awesome. So yeah, it's pretty crazy to think about. Um, even then it's like, we knew it was a, I knew it was a, how big of a deal it was, but looking back, it's like, you, you still can't capture like what a big deal was that we were pregnant. Like how, how, how even now it's like, I know it happens quite a bit and there's couples that have stories just like ours, different versions and some of them just like ours.
01:08:34
Speaker
But for us, it really was like a mirror. It was a miracle was because it was, we were not going to have kids. And it was just like, I knew we i mean, i think I really had let it go. i was like, Oh, we're not going have kids. It's not going happen. Yeah.
01:08:51
Speaker
And so thinking back to that time, I remember a really sad time that I knew you were not well or not, not, not that you're not, not well, but that like, I just remember that time. And, um,
01:09:05
Speaker
the 4th July yeah that when you, we drove, so the OB's office had like this upper parking deck that was in downtown Roanoke that would have really, at you know, would have a good vantage point of the fireworks that were shot downtown. And I remember you didn't want to be, we usually would go and do like a 4th of July, we'd go downtown for the events and we'd go hang out with people and you were like, I don't want to be around anybody. people And that was like the first time i saw any kind of a glimpse of that, of you.
01:09:35
Speaker
in our dating and married life. I had never seen that side of you that I learned to, very much so learned later that you didn't wanna be around anybody.
01:09:48
Speaker
And I remember you drove, Cause you're like, I know where we can go. Remember that? And we bought like little popsicles or something. put them in the cooler. We put them in the cooler and we went up there and we sat up there and the back of our car and watched the fireworks. Through tears. Yeah. And you cried. I remember that. So ye yeah, that was a, that was it.
01:10:10
Speaker
It was a hard time. Yeah. So, so me processing all that, like, I just want to, just wanted to be there for you and be, and that was, I just remember that being very,
01:10:21
Speaker
I had never seen that side of you. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. You know, cause we didn't have, which I think again is a blessing. stuff i mean, some hard stuff with yeah and like when we were planning our wedding and everything, there was a whole lot of family drama that surrounded that. So we went through some hard things. You saw me upset. Like you had seen me. No, no. Yeah. But in this kind of way.
01:10:43
Speaker
Yeah. I had never seen, I had seen you upset. You had seen me upset. Sure. Um, But like depress you know depressive, type like real deep pit stuff. Yeah. You know, we experienced pretty early on in our marriage. And i do i do that is part of the the, back to our very beginning comments about, you know, long, long super long dating relationships or very, very long engagements is...
01:11:12
Speaker
um
01:11:13
Speaker
this I don't know how this will be received, but there is a sense in which it's like, you know, if if i if we experienced all of that, I don't know if, I mean, thank the Lord that you said yes to me so quickly, because if you had spent years with me, i would doubt you would want to be with me. I doubt you would want to be married to me. and perhaps vice versa. So there was that sense of like, I remember just, I had never really seen that side of you yeah of where you wanted to really retreat from people because you were you are such an expressive
01:11:45
Speaker
engaging person, even though you do have some introvert, I guess a little bit, I wouldn't call you a complete introvert. I really wouldn't. I know I'm a closeted introvert. You just didn't know. Yeah. but Masquerade as an extrovert. I suppose. It's true. um But I would just say that, you know, that was the first time I'd seen that because you are, you know, you're, you would always be a gatherer of people and want to be around people and and do things even more so, I think sometimes than me.
01:12:15
Speaker
Oh, 100%. And people would probably characterize me somewhat of it as an extrovert to a certain extent. You don't think so? Yeah.
01:12:25
Speaker
Yeah. yeah But I'm not. I mean, I don't tend. Again, you masquerade for sure. Yeah, I don't tend to like. What's your favorite thing to say when I'm like, we're going to, what about what if we do this on the other? And you'll say.
01:12:38
Speaker
Go ahead. What? If I'm like, we're going to do this or this, these are our plans and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then this is happening. So we're going to, and you'll say what? I don't know. You never set me up all of these things. Maybe.
01:12:52
Speaker
Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. Let's process it first. Maybe needs no. Yeah. Well, I mean you fill the calendar. it's a it's It's great. I'm super thankful for you in that sense. I mean, God knew what he was doing when he put us together in that.
01:13:06
Speaker
Because I do like coming into situations that are already set up. I'm not great at but we've setting those up planning like planning your birthday. um all of that, I do love doing that, but man, that is exhausting.
01:13:21
Speaker
It's exhausting to to plan all that and have that surprise and keep that under wraps. That was just, oh, I was by the, I was done. I was so done by the end of that. I mean, it it is a lot of fun and I knew it was great because i was it was special, but that's exhausting for me. yeah And you thrive on.
01:13:42
Speaker
Keeping that all together. planning and putting that together and you enjoy yeah i know you do it's fun it's great i'm a detail oriented administrative person i enjoy spreadsheets i'm a nerd who was it i was talking to a friend the other day and don't remember i was talking about something she was like nerd alert nerd no alert i was like oh i'm totally a nerd 100 nerd yeah Anyway, yeah, but I always love when we look back on the infertility stuff, and there's, of course, more after Noah. We wanted to have, continue to have more, and we were like, had so much hope because we had one. Yeah, yeah. All of that. And everybody says, oh, now you're going to have a bunch. No, body's in, yeah, da, da, da. And, yeah, but...
01:14:26
Speaker
um when we look back and do like the math he was born in september he would have been conceived at the beginning of december so when we were going through you know the sorrows i remember doing a scavenger hunt for christmas that year for you do you remember that and i had you you know go from room to room and there were clues in each room yeah and when we were in what was the office at the time And we sat in your chair together and read the little note and we both cried. Do you know that? Because was like, we both had high hopes that this room would one day be a nursery and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. That was so hard. And then the New Year's thing that we just talked about. See, I showed emotion. Oh, yeah, you did. see.
01:15:05
Speaker
But yeah it was very calculated. But we were pregnant and we didn't know it at the time. know. Which is always crazy. It's awesome. It like right after Thanksgiving was when we would have conceived, which was crazy.
01:15:17
Speaker
So... Anyway, all that to say there were some habits perhaps that we both ended up formulating as far as like processing things on our own and not actually communicating through them in that time that probably but they were unhealthy yeah in a sense for sure. Yeah, I think that...
01:15:37
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah it was a a lot of that... eliminated things and also helped cover things too at the same time. Yeah. Which is, i know, I realize the juxtaposition, but it did. It eliminated areas that we were not aware of that were problematic in our lives and communication and issues in our marriage, which we were not,
01:15:59
Speaker
savvy enough to really hone in on and it also helped cover at the same time because of the dramatic effect of such a big event it it covered yeah things as well that were and maybe led to us not seeing some things that were that were coming out so yeah it was it was hard and yeah I mean there was some retreating there I would say in communication so when there were things that came up after the fact that maybe bothered me about things that you did or things that were going on that I felt like weren't healthy in your life, I didn't i didn't know how to communicate that yeah well. i I mean, I communicated it passively, not directly and you know lovingly and kind to you. I would just do it in a a different way, which was not healthy. Yeah.
Renewing Vows and Future Hopes
01:16:53
Speaker
And now you can hear Rocky the rooster the background. Yeah, the rooster's growing three times. Oh, no, he's going to keep going because I can hear, when I'm sitting up here, I can hear the other one down the road. Yeah. That they battle with, which is great. Thanks, Rocky. They're hungry, so need to go feed the chickens. Yeah.
01:17:11
Speaker
And you've got to get on to things. Well, this was great. Yeah, enjoyed it. Thanks for coming again. always fun talking. ah Next time we'll talk about the big kahuna and our marriage and go from there as we continue to celebrate June and what I have dubbed Redemption Month.
01:17:33
Speaker
I truly thought probably about three years ago that we would renew our vows. Yeah. We talked about it. on Like now, 10 years later, that enough but I can just see what the Lord's doing. And I'm thinking
Closing Reflections
01:17:46
Speaker
maybe our 20th wedding anniversary, we should maybe do a big celebration and renew our vows.
01:17:53
Speaker
It's funny too. We always talk about like if we were to get married now, who would be in our wedding party and who would attend our wedding versus when we got married. Yeah. I'm sure that's probably for a lot of people. Sure. Yeah. um But yeah, for sure us where I would say, yeah.
01:18:06
Speaker
I mean, because there are so many people that you meet, especially having moved and moved from communities too. Sure, yeah. Right, so we have new we have new communities. There's still people from our old community that they would 100% be there. yeah And then there are some now that are such dear friends that we'd love to have. so Yeah.
01:18:28
Speaker
All right. Well, thanks for sticking with us in our long-winded conversation. And we hope you come back next week as we continue chatting about the things that matter in life. Because we're digging in.
01:18:44
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. Did you like that? Yeah. It's pretty good. Love you. Love you too. not