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Ep 4 :: What is LOVE? with Adam
218 Plays2 months ago
This week Megan is joined by a very special guest! Her husband Adam sits down to discuss "what IS love?" They explore familial love to the discovery of puppy love and ultimately sacrificial love. This is an episode to learn more about Adam, his upbringing and what it looks like to love well. Topics include more mature themes and may not be appropriate for young ears. Let's dig in...
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The Success by Keys of Moon
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Diggin' In' Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi friends, welcome to Diggin' In. I'm your host, Megan. This is a place where we discuss the things that really matter in life. We cut through the surface to dive deeper. So pull up a chair because here we're Diggin' In.
Welcoming the First Guest
00:00:19
Speaker
welcome back to digging in we're in a different location today because i am with someone special my first guest on the podcast it really is special hi honey hi hello lover hello that's what i should say i didn't know i was the first guest you are the first guest wow oh i know it's exciting i'm very excited i'm honored go to be great to be here i'm excited It is great, and it's going to be a lot of fun. um Okay, so you guys will pick up on some banter between us. We quote movies all the time.
Exploring 'What is Love?'
00:00:50
Speaker
We can't help it. So when I say to you, this episode is going to be called What is Love? What happens in your head?
00:00:58
Speaker
i don't know. What is love? Really? There's no, like, quote or anything that pops out your head immediately. Oh, my gosh. I'm already this. This is... horrible for us. Okay, maybe ah let me rephrase that. When I say, what is love, what happens in my head?
00:01:15
Speaker
I mean, are you talking about Hathaway? Yes! Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess that is a movie. va a yeah ah Come on. Yeah. And the headbanging, the Roxbury's, all of it. Yeah, I'm with you there. Okay. Yeah. yeah This is easy. I thought I was starting with some easy questions. That's lot pressure.
00:01:34
Speaker
All right. Well, if you're just joining us, you're coming into a fun episode with the two of us together, but I would encourage you first to back up and go see or listen to the podcasts prior. The first one, just kind of a quick overview of what this podcast is going to be about. And then the second and third one, those episodes were my testimony and kind of sharing the big marriage testimony, which we're going to talk a little bit about today. We probably won't dive into a whole Whole lot of it, but that will give you some context as to where we're going. This one in particular is more supposed to be light and fun because this will be airing on your mom's birthday, February 13th. Oh, that's great. Anything you want to say?
00:02:16
Speaker
I love you, Mom. Happy birthday. Yeah. Happy birthday, Mom. love you. And happy pre-Valentine's Day. She's always the day before Valentine's Day. That's right. Very easy to remember. Exactly. so we're going to talk about love today. Okay. All right.
00:02:30
Speaker
So let's do it. Okay.
Childhood and Love Concepts
00:02:32
Speaker
So first, I just wanted to ask you, like, what in your mind growing up, I know for a little girl versus a little girl, a boy, the concept of love is going to be different. So when you were like elementary school age, did you even think of love, have a concept of love, anything like that?
00:02:52
Speaker
What did love mean to you at that age? That's a good question. oh thanks. um I'm new at this. I don't know. Yeah. So for, ah guess, a young boy for me, probably,
00:03:07
Speaker
You know, I definitely saw my parents, I felt familial love is probably what I would say that i most aligned or defaulted to love when I thought about it in the context of myself, right? Would be like familial love, my brother, my sister, ah mom and dad, we love each other. They love me.
00:03:30
Speaker
They care about me. they They look out for me. They know what's best um for me at that time. And then as far as romantic love, I think it would have been more of like a Valentine's Day sticky love, sticky sweet love, right? Like not not a depth. there was There would be no depth there. I didn't have like that kind of understanding, you know?
00:03:52
Speaker
Boys and girls chasing each other on the playground would be the extent of what I thought. Yeah. romantic love was and like racing each other yes okay and so when did you start really recognizing like what love meant meaning outside of yourself to love you know not fuel necessarily the flesh and what you want and like oh i love ice cream i'm gonna go have ice cream i love someone and i want to show them i love them what does that look like Again, I think I would have, my early on would have been within my family as far as what that looks like.
Teen Love and Influences
00:04:26
Speaker
um I think I did learn early on and I'm i'm thankful I'm the youngest of three.
00:04:30
Speaker
So i learned what it meant to be excited for somebody else, to share in their excitement, to do things that I didn't want to do necessarily for them, whether it was sports or you know recitals or plays or things like that. That would have been my my roots as far as what that goes. As far as um I was a ah grew up in the 80s and 90s.
00:04:57
Speaker
um My teenage years were in the 90s. So that was the true love waits time in church growing up in my youth group. So that would have been my, probably my first real introduction, true introduction of things to talk about like sex or affection. That was my first probably challenge to like talk about that in a public setting or or hear a biblical perspective on it would be in that true love waits and you signed an agreement.
00:05:28
Speaker
and you said that you were going to wait until marriage and that would have been the context for for some of that i mean i have some other things as well that i could share that probably aren't biblical as far as my interactions on movies and things like that too that i would have seen like to me that would have been romantic love sure and when you say that do you mean like the you know 80s and 90s movies that we were talking about within growing up or what do you mean? yeah i would ah I would mean that I would see maybe movies that were approved and not approved and being able to see stereotypical male guy at that time that had it all together, looked the part, said all the right things, was really smooth and strong and looked the part all the time and women always falling in love with them. And that was probably a ah very...
00:06:17
Speaker
That would have been my early foundation probably for romantic love. And that probably had a ah greater impact on me even more so than from a biblical ver like perspective. Interesting. Yeah.
00:06:30
Speaker
Funny to hear your perspective on that versus like my perspective in watching those movies of like, oh, this Prince Charming type man that had it all together, you know, and could financially provide and, you know, all those types of things and thinking like that's who is going to come in and provide all the things and never have a worry or care in the world. Yeah.
00:06:50
Speaker
So what about biblical
Understanding Agape Love
00:06:53
Speaker
agape love? When did you learn about that? And how did that come into the picture? I mean, very late is what I would tell you, sadly for me, as far as My understanding or my interest um or it being directly, you know, when you're young, that's something, especially in your teenage years, there's more of, at least for me, it would be, i want to say, you know, like fake it until you make it. But that is kind of like what I think about as far as like, oh, I i know what that's about or I have understanding about that. I really didn't. i was probably what you consider a prude.
00:07:30
Speaker
kid for for a long time. um You know, my first kiss was in seventh grade at the buses leaving school, right?
00:07:41
Speaker
So that was that, you know, she kiss you or did you kiss her? She kissed me. Okay. um And so, and that was pretty, you know, i think i I more or less kind of did it as like a, you know, I'm supposed to do this. This is what you do if you are, if you like somebody. um And so, know, that was it. I was very, you know. Shelter. Yeah, very shelter. i mean, shelter shelter but not. I mean, I had already, um you know, made some...
00:08:10
Speaker
seen some things you know that had influenced me, like I talked about for that. Yeah, I mean, and and pornography had already been brought into the light at that at that moment in my life. I didn't have a real full understanding of what I was looking at in those moments, um is what I would say, but it certainly obviously had a deep ingrained impression on me, um which is...
00:08:32
Speaker
you know what is so concerning looking back now being almost 45 years old, I remember that moment. and I remember now I know the path that it took in my brain and my heart so early on, even when I really wasn't fully processing. I didn't know. i didn't know anything about female body or anything like that. Truly in that sense, I just knew it was something that was attractive to me. Yeah.
00:08:56
Speaker
So probably a good spot to pause and ask you to give us like a flyover of your upbringing and, you know, like up through your teenage years.
Family and Upbringing
00:09:06
Speaker
Okay. um So I said I was the youngest of three and um i was born in Little Rock, Arkansas and grew up there for the majority of like my preteen years um was was there.
00:09:22
Speaker
And then my teenage years, we moved to Maryland. We moved to the East Coast to a very foreign place at that time to to me. It was a bit of a culture shock coming to the East Coast from the deep South and I think a culture shock for people too, receiving you from Arkansas. For sure Yes, lot of people wanting to hear me say say things.
00:09:44
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, we had never met people from Maryland and I felt like they had never met people from Arkansas. That was my upbringing. I was raised in the church um in a Christian home in Arkansas. We went to a Southern Baptist church.
00:10:00
Speaker
And when we went to Maryland, interestingly enough, we did look around at churches, but we found ourselves at a Presbyterian church. But that's what I knew. i knew that my mom and dad loved Jesus. I knew that my brother and sister did. My mom's grandparents were missionaries.
00:10:16
Speaker
to Suriname, South America. There was a lot of ah Christian influence on me. And so being the youngest and a pleaser by nature, that was ah very much followed in that line. I came um to know Jesus. I accepted Christ when I was eight years old, sitting talking to my mom when she was folding laundry one morning in the summer and I was eating cereal.
Faith Journey and Parental Influence
00:10:38
Speaker
And so Let that be a little nugget. Mamas, the babes are always listening, watching and ready to talk to you. Just make yourself available. It's sweet. Yeah. So sitting at the breakfast table and we went to church every Sunday, you know, i was in involved in the church by going to Sunday school.
00:10:59
Speaker
And when I first started, when I was, I guess, my my preteen and teenage years, I started going to youth camp and being in a youth group there.
00:11:13
Speaker
They didn't have like middle school Young Life at that time. um But then as I entered into high school, I was involved in Young Life. I was involved in Fellowship of Christian Athletes. um And i was a leader in those organizations. I was somebody who who led and was you know seen probably as ah a ah young Christian leader in that group. I led Bible study for FCA as I got older in like 10th, 11th, and 12th grade and went to youth camps and was involved in the church.
00:11:46
Speaker
Just like a volunteer aspect, my parents were involved in the church. My parents taught Sunday school for high school for for many years. So we were, i guess, kind of a very, to me, a typical American family.
00:12:00
Speaker
i had a very blessed life. you know I had a mom and dad who loved one another and were committed to one another. And I saw that every day laid
Parental Discipline and Respect
00:12:10
Speaker
out. I had a mom that stayed at home and raised all of us kids.
00:12:14
Speaker
So she was there to talk to me and and ask us questions. When I came home, my mom was home waiting for me. And i had a dad who worked and was involved and I looked up to tremendously. was um He played sports in college and i was a big athlete. I loved sports. I did everything anything I could with sports. And so he was my role model. He was my somebody who I really loved. aspired to to look after. and um He was quiet. My dad's pretty pretty quiet to a certain extent until you get to know him. um But certainly when I was younger, i would say I was afraid in the way that you have a respect for somebody of maybe disappointing. would say i'm probably more afraid of disappointing my dad um as a young kid. i didn't want to disappoint him.
00:13:01
Speaker
I was would certainly be like a mama's boy, i would say, at it from a young age until I was about 16 or 17 and went to my mom for most things. um My mom is from Tennessee and my dad's from Pittsburgh. My dad is an engineer. He's black and white.
00:13:18
Speaker
Things are the way they are. and you know he led he led that way. I very much needed that. That was great. And then my mom was certainly sensitive. And when I needed to have someone who could hear me out or listen to my story, she was always there to to listen and go through that. So my brother is seven years older than me, and my sister's five years older than me. So there was ah a bit of a gap there. My brother was definitely somebody I looked up to. I wanted to impress my brother. I wanted to be able to be allowed to play in the sports he was playing with his friends.
00:13:54
Speaker
And my sister, he and i as I got older, even when I was in high school, you know we were very protective over my sister. So we kind of had both ends of her covered, we felt like in that sense. And my sister was typical middle child.
00:14:08
Speaker
very honest. She would always tell on Ryan and I whenever we would get in trouble, she'd always say she wouldn't and she would always tell on us. But she was, my sister's extremely disciplined, was extremely disciplined from you know during that in that time. Maybe the better athlete out of all of us, truly, she was a great athlete, is still a great athlete. I always looked up to her. She was unafraid to stand up for her faith at a young age and do the right thing.
00:14:37
Speaker
um if that meant walk home from a party. So we grew up like no drinking, and that wasn't allowed. if we were to go to parties where there was no, that was all yeah very rules-based loving home, but we had rules. I had curfews that I had to abide by. um If I was late, I was grounded.
00:14:58
Speaker
ah you know We had punishment that came, um which was very healthy for me. it was God knew that I needed that for sure. um And there was no leniency. My dad was like, if you're grounded for two weeks, you're grounded for two weeks to the day. it didn't matter what fell on that day or what special thing you were missing. That was the case. And you, you, I learned that.
00:15:21
Speaker
what that meant for consequences and those things. But my sister was ah in rarely in trouble, doing the right thing. She was a big supporter of me, for sure. you know I always felt that. we had ah we had a good We had a special bond in my later years of high school, because she actually came home from college and student taught. And so she lived at home during that time, and it was ah it was a sweet time for us to grow close. So my childhood was very much filled with Ryan and Amy and being the youngest until I got into high school, and I was almost like an only child, um which was very unique for me.
00:15:59
Speaker
for my upbringing I really liked it. it it was I had never had that much attention because I was the youngest. so it was It was a nice time, my mom and dad and I, you during that period. and it was It was really sweet. That's probably not a brief overview. That's pretty good. but you know Like I said, I was in sports. I was involved
High School Developement
00:16:19
Speaker
in school. I loved school.
00:16:21
Speaker
um as much as someone can in high school, but I was a someone who wanted to excel and achieve. I got involved in clubs and i was you know class president and I was in student senate and I did all the things in in school. i was I played football and baseball and basketball and um that was i i loved being involved in those things. i definitely wanted to be involved and I wanted to lead as best I could. i always felt like i knew the way that something should be done.
00:16:57
Speaker
And i was, at a young age, didn't have a fear of standing out in and saying that. so And so you got into high school, had girlfriends here and there, I'm sure.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah. yeah i um I mentioned my first kiss was in seventh grade. I'm pretty sure mine was in like second grade and I kissed him. Yeah. i mean... like with the girls going after the boys. i don't know. I remember a girl that what I do remember about my like pre seventh grade elementary school was that I do remember girls chasing me on the playground. That's what I remember. yeah Middle school, i never had. I'm trying to remember if I had like a girlfriend. Middle school was so my parents were great.
00:17:42
Speaker
I battled up against this in my later years, but my parents were not parents that got excited or wanted to talk to you about your relationships. They weren't like, oh, who do you like or who's interested in you? It was never my parents.
00:17:59
Speaker
um And I think it was intentional. I really do. you know Even so much now when I think about our own son, I shy away from that because that's just not how I grew up. My parents didn't werent Didn't want to know who I was taking to the dance. It wasn't like that. they didn't I think they felt that like my hormones were going just fine on their own and they didn't need to be fanned the flames. Yeah.
00:18:23
Speaker
you know like yeah So I appreciate that. um I think that was was helpful. I wish we would have had, i think I would have benefited probably from some more intentional conversations, but I always felt that that was always there. i remember my brother being older than me, having relationships and seeing how that go. And and they you know there were rules for that. There were rules for taking a girl out or going out one-on-one with a girl later in high school. I remember they'd allowed us to date, but there were definitely rules to that. I mean, I'll, I'll tell you, you know, the story is that, you know, when girls called our house, this is obviously pre-cell phone.
00:19:04
Speaker
Um, So we had a landline. We had two landlines, one in the kitchen with a big long cord. And then we had one in my parents' bedroom. And that was it. We didn't have phones in rooms. We didn't have TVs in rooms. That wasn't allowed. But we would have to answer the phone and you know say, Rufalski residence, this is Adam. him um And then we would...
00:19:20
Speaker
direct the call wherever it needed to go. But if ah if a girl called, and we didn't answer the phone all the time, my parents really did answer the phone quite a bit. But if a girl called us boys, my mom in her very sweet Southern voice would say, hi who is this? And they would say, and you know, if it was Shelly, like, hi, Shelly, um we really appreciate you calling, but girls do not call boys. So if Adam wants to talk to you, then he will give you a call.
00:19:47
Speaker
um And then she would hang up. and that would be it there was no like That was the way it was. and so you know All that's happening around me, I'm taking notes yeah on these things. and so i think There was something good about that. One of the things I would say, my personality was that meant for me, I hid.
00:20:08
Speaker
i I hid those relationships. um and that I don't really blame my parents for that. That's just how I interpret i processed it. Okay, i'm goingnna I'm going to hide this thing. I'm not going to tell them about it until I'm ready. yeah um That de-emphasized dating for me. In middle school, I don't i know I liked girls. I remember you know when I liked girls and noticed girls and noticed that their forms were changing and us boys talking about that. you know And your form changing as well. our Ours were, but less noticeable. um and But I remember noticing that on girls that they're they were changing um and um maturing they were accentuating those things more and they were maturing and and and noticing that and liking that.
00:21:01
Speaker
And you know also having this you know relationship with what does that mean and and what you know why am I attracted to that in that way? um but But not really getting to the point of like wanting to date somebody.
00:21:17
Speaker
It was just people I liked, but it was almost like when we joke about our dog Rosie chasing squirrels, right? I would equate it to that. I was all about chasing, maybe chasing them in my mind or heart or thinking about what that would be, but I would have no idea what I was going to do when you got it if they liked me back or anything like that.
00:21:38
Speaker
um So I was... really focused on my friends, guys and sports and doing that building forts and making bike trails and playing backyard football. Um, so my first real girlfriend, um, that I i took to a dance and all that her name was Megan. Yeah, it was um great name. M-E-G-A-N too. She spelled it the right way. The correct way. Yeah. Because they like I said, you know it's funny. Now it's like my memories are coming back. i there were We had a groups. In middle school was more like the group thing. Yeah, yeah.
00:22:17
Speaker
Right? So we had guys and girls that were all shared friends and we would go see movies. Yep. That was the thing. Oh, yeah. Now I'm remembering that. So I remember like seventh and eighth grade, that was the thing. You would go see a movie and you would sit next to a girl that you liked and you might touch her hand. Yeah.
00:22:35
Speaker
right That was the extent of like my what I thought was romantic or what you know that meant. um But yeah, and it was that was that. So ninth grade,
00:22:49
Speaker
um i i was I actually was brought up to varsity for football. And so that was ah that was a massive...
00:23:00
Speaker
huge swing for me and impression upon me of being, i mean, I was 14 years old and I was in the room with 18 year old guys, you know, men in the locker room. And I was a late bloomer.
00:23:14
Speaker
You know, I didn't really have hair on my face until I got out of college. you know i had a very boyish you know I was a little boy compared to these guys and i very much looked up to them and defaulted. you know Just kind of again, talk about fake it you make it was really like they were talking about things in the locker room. I had no idea what they were talking about and I would just kind of laugh when everybody laughed.
00:23:40
Speaker
or you know get along to be cool. you know i wasn't As much as I was a leader, there was a lot of places where you know I was un very unsure of myself um and insecure. Well, too, being so young and with older you know upperclassmen and all that good stuff, that makes ah a lot of sense.
00:23:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, without question. So um I remember, so i was on varsity. I got brought up, ah the I can't remember, the third or fourth game of our our season in football. And that's football for us was in the fall like most. And you know that's the first year, right in the beginning of the school year. And so that was that put me in um the orbit of...
00:24:23
Speaker
juniors and seniors. And I remember like um the wide receiver, he had, they, they drove to school and he was like, Hey, well, I'll pick you up. You're whatever. You know? So I was riding into school with, and at that time, this is, you know, nineties culture. That was like a big deal, oh yeah you know, to, to ride in with upperclassmen. I remember like my friends being like, Oh man, like, you know, what, what's this like? um I am thankful that,
00:24:53
Speaker
One thing I was, either the Lord was just good to me and didn't make me be a jerk in certain situations, I was, I guess, maybe mature but not intentionally was, I was i did you know i was still really good friends with all my friends in my class. you know i didn't There was some people where that changed during that time and then it's like they felt, I never felt like I had to not be friends with the people in my class. And so it was great just having that grounding for people who knew me you know for a long time, at least from elementary school and stuff like that. So that was super helpful. um But all that to say is that that my freshman year, I did not have a girlfriend. are ah a lot of our freshman girls started dating upperclassmen. And so they they saw us as like, you know, wow, look at all these men just to your point. And we were boys, as silly boys. And so they did not want to date us. And so I did not have a girlfriend all of ninth grade, but I did go to senior prom. i was asked by a senior. And so again,
00:25:59
Speaker
Now I know they have prom for everybody, but you couldn't go to, there was only senior prom, there was no junior prom, and you could only go to senior prom if you were asked to go by a senior. And so this girl like who was a senior asked me to go, and you know i I went. That was all very new for me. It feels like a blur um because i was going out to part I was going out to high school parties. I'd never been to a high school party or a party without... you know Sometimes there weren't parents there, which was like very uncomfortable for me. you know That's when I first started kind of consistently lying to my parents about maybe things I was doing because I was afraid to tell them i was going to a party.
00:26:39
Speaker
knew they would probably not either not allow me or maybe they would have. I don't know. i would i would lie about things. I would say, oh, we're going to go do this, and we were just going over to someone's house. Right. So that kind of pushed you into a little bit of hiding. Certainly some hiding. Yeah, i definitely early on. You transformed from like young love to a more mature concept of love and, you know, yeah more mature in the sense of like a romantic love instead of just like little girls with voice kind of thing. Yeah. Obviously going to prom with this girl, like there was no, there was nothing romantic or sure anything like that. I think it was just like,
00:27:15
Speaker
we were I mean, I didn't really even really know her. she just I think she probably thought I was an attractive guy. i don't really know, to be honest with you. I was just like happy to be along. Quarterback the football team. Yeah. So there was just probably some of that. And I was just along for the ride a little bit in some cases there.
00:27:30
Speaker
So we will come back and further episodes down the road and talk about like the details of how we both got to where we are now. But I just want to...
00:27:43
Speaker
Talk about moving from like that picture in your mind of, okay, this is what romantic love looks like, this is what I've kind of seen modeled, and to like a more mature
First Serious College Relationship
00:27:54
Speaker
relationship. you know There was the one girl that you dated in college and you really thought that that was going somewhere and then didn't. so yeah just tell us a little bit about how that kind of manifested and what that led into kind of leading up to us meeting.
00:28:11
Speaker
That's good. Good, Megan. Oh, thanks. um Yeah, so I really, in high school, I had that that first girlfriend that I intentionally, like, I asked, you know, i liked her, dated, you would say that we, people would say that we dated um I dated her.
00:28:30
Speaker
That was kind of on off throughout high school. And then as a senior, we didn't, it was, you know, kind of somewhat fizzled. I was going to leave school, but that was the, that was the relationship probably that people would have said I had in high school looking back. There were other girlfriends that I had had and stuff like that. But so I was very immature when it came to relationship.
00:28:53
Speaker
to what that meant sacrificially. was selfish in relationships for sure. When I got to college, was at West Point and met a girl there and really fell for her. Probably the first person unselfishly cared about.
00:29:10
Speaker
you know I would i would do think want to think about how I could do things for her. I would alter my schedule to run into her. i had never experienced that. I had never had somebody where i was like, how can I get into this person's you know view? Sphere. Yeah. How can I get into her sphere? What can I learn about her? yeah And she was somebody I really had to pursue, to be honest with you. you know When I first met her, i don't say this in an arrogant way, up to that point, I had never had like somebody that I liked that rejected me. And so, and and part of that honestly is not necessarily just that everybody were just throwing themselves at me. It was that I was very, you know this about me, i don't want to be rejected. And so i was choosy on how I went about, you know, i was going to be sure that this person liked me before I made that move. I was not cavalier in that way at all. So
00:30:08
Speaker
With her, I was i didn't know. you know I really didn't know. I put myself out there and she did not hit the ball back. um But we had PO boxes at West Point. We had this whole area of like mail. I found out her PO o box and I wrote her this like long you know letter about how she would regret.
00:30:32
Speaker
So Stephen. This is how immature I was. I was like, how old? I was 19 years old probably. And you know she was going to regret um you know not choosing me. And I don't even know. i thought I'm sure I thought it was really well written.
00:30:49
Speaker
But I did. I wrote her this letter, handwritten letter, and um no response to it. But then at some point after that, in that moment, phase it turned i just remember like one of her friends coming to me and say like oh yeah you know so and so is definitely interested in you and so um to me that was like the great catch you know it was okay yeah it was a great it was a great pursuit um and i still didn't know what to do um but i really did it was the first one ah ah that i would say that i was learning about what love was i still was so mature when it came to a relationship. you know i was I was kind, I was caring, it was a sweet relationship.
00:31:34
Speaker
um We were friends for sure, we had common interests. It was good. it was like ah It was a first relationship that I was pretty serious about and was willing to change my plans.
00:31:48
Speaker
for. I was willing to to imagine maybe things how i like, oh, I didn't think about it that way, or I'll do this, or oh, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to do this because it fits in line with her. I had never felt that way about girls. I'd always looked at girls as just different. I was very focused, and nothing was going to get in the way of that first.
00:32:12
Speaker
And so that relationship fizzled out At the time, you discovered kind of an unequal yoking as far as your faith goes. And that's kind of... Yeah, so there definitely was... um She had been raised Catholic. And so she actually went to Catholic Mass and i went to Protestant church.
00:32:31
Speaker
and So there was at you know at West Point, there was um one chapel, but they would have different times. um She started going to Protestant church. church with me. And you know i would say that for me and my faith at this time, who you know it was i had the Lord had put me in a place at that point where I was very successful.
Love and Faith Challenges
00:32:51
Speaker
I had everything that I had targeted, i was achieving. And that was a very dangerous place for me to be. That was very much a low point in my faith as far as ah you know it's Looking back, it's like I can't even really remember what my thoughts were on the Lord. on i was making I was calling the shots. I knew what I wanted. i you know It was like, yeah, I'm really glad that the Lord's blessing me with this, but we all know who
00:33:26
Speaker
achieved all this. It's me. And so my wildest dreams were were coming true. i was I had wanted to go to the academies. i had applied to the academies. i got into an academy. I wanted to play football, division one football. I was doing that. It was that that point as far as like faith went, it was like I was doing it out of habit.
00:33:46
Speaker
no real relationship. um I was definitely spiritual milk, i mean if any at all. yeah so The way that our relationship went during that time was what wanted, when we wanted.
00:34:02
Speaker
She was doing that. And so, no, she was not a ah strong believer at that time. i think she I want to hope that she came to to a greater relationship because there was some really sweet times. What I would say is she met my family and she knew my family loved the Lord. My mom made that very clear. my mom was not super thrilled about the relationship um because I think she saw how much I was into this young girl.
00:34:28
Speaker
and um she knew her and probably didn't sense a strong faith background in her or her not even forget background um just her faith so she knew that she that this girl loved her son but um and i probably would say i know i would say i loved her at that time or i thought i loved her and so My parents were accepting, but again, not encouraging of that relationship. They definitely wanted to put the brakes on it as much as possible. I definitely, first time, i rebelled against my parents. So I left school. That really pulled the relationship apart in the end. and then you know i found out there was infidelity there on her part that hurt a lot and then after leaving school and trying to keep that together there was such an unhealthy point on my part of like trying desperately to keep that together trying desperately to rekindle that i mean i really was pathetic when it looking back on how much would
00:35:38
Speaker
would go visit her. And I mean, you know, she entertained it. um It wasn't like I was just showing up at her door. She would continue to keep me, you know, engaged. And I'm sure she loved the admiration. And I don't fault her for that at all. I certainly made it easy for me to meet up with her. And I would drive up there and um But I did have some friends say like, yeah, you know, like she's, she's with another guy at school. That was really tough. I desperately tried to keep that together. And so during that time, my parents were really making that difficult.
00:36:14
Speaker
And I was, we were not, we were at odds with my parents. And that was the, um, you know Since my sophomore year in high school, which was my hardest year by far, that was ah ah the kind of the next level of which I really rebelled against my parents' wishes. They definitely did not want me to be in that relationship. They had lots of good reasons why.
00:36:36
Speaker
i knew I didn't need to be in that relationship, but I just could not right let go. it was hard. you know I really felt like I loved her. We would have said we were going to get married.
00:36:47
Speaker
i mean, thank the Lord that that did not happen. You wouldn't be sitting here right now. No, God is so good. um And I mean, i was not meant for her and she was not meant for me. But you know I really was convinced that I loved her, that I knew what love was. i remember having specific conversations with my mom.
00:37:06
Speaker
about that she was so wrong and you just don't understand and you know you don't want me to be happy and just all the typical the immature things that we say. So i was 21 years old um because I did go to prep school at a high school so I had a 13th grade. that was That was definitely a lot of unhealthy, you know not even really relationships. That was the first time I had you know maybe kissed a girl or done things with a girl that I didn't necessarily, I wasn't even dating.
00:37:35
Speaker
right um yeah That was all intermixed, all very rapidly changing for me. That was not a slow time. It was like, boom, you know big impact on my life. so let's pause here that aspect of things. Yeah, probably not answering your questions really well. No, you're doing great. this is awesome. I wanted you to be able to come and share a little about you and who you are upbringing and all that good stuff. And because it's the month of love, wanted to hear how that all went and that that transitions into, I shared our marriage testimony last week on last week's episode. And so there's a lot of that information there that people can go and listen to. we're going to skip all of that. You and I talking about it, which again, people have to come back because we will do that. Yeah. And it's going to great. But we're going to transition now on this side of our marriage exploding so much. Probably I think both of us at one point thought our marriage might not survive. And then God doing just such an incredible, miraculous healing and restoration.
00:38:52
Speaker
Praise God. Yeah. Go God. Go God. For sure. Yeah. So now on this side of all of that, what does love look like?
00:39:03
Speaker
whom That's good. So remind me of that question, but I did want to answer the ah part of your last question, which I didn't because I i know like brevity is not a strength. No, it's not. At all.
00:39:15
Speaker
i apologize. um I always want to try to give everybody the context as much as possible. But one of the things you asked was you know leading up to how we met. i always love... you know at least being able to shed a little bit of light on that because it is a, ah it is a huge pivotal point in all the things that I said about relationship and love and women and what that looked like. Having all the that, those relationships that I had, um you know, a couple of, you know, relationships in my life. I was not a ah girlfriend guy, but I was somebody certainly that didn't,
00:39:50
Speaker
didn't turn away from women, um that's for sure, and made many mistakes. But when I met you, thank the Lord. I mean, truly, it is such a ah gift when I think back of just God's hand on my, like very clear hand on my life of I was,
00:40:10
Speaker
not looking for relationship. I was finally meeting people and saying, like, I was getting to a point in my life, I was 25, 26 years old, and saying, like, not flirting with a relationship if I didn't feel like this person was somebody that I would marry, that I would introduce to my parents, and that loved Jesus. I was immature, right? So this is 20 years ago, but I did know that.
00:40:39
Speaker
And when i met you, I knew the the most, two attractive things about you. Do you know the first thing was? smile Your eyes. eyes okay Your eyes sparkled always. They still do. And I'll never forget seeing your eyes. And the second thing was, I knew you loved Jesus. I knew you loved Jesus way more than you would ever love me. And we had just met. But I knew that. I knew that.
00:41:10
Speaker
i was so grateful. I'm so grateful for God's provision in that because that was certainly wisdom beyond my years at that point. That was not from me.
Meeting Megan and First Impressions
00:41:21
Speaker
Those were goals of mine. They were things that I had thought about, certainly. but not fully baked, no maturity there, but really God's provision and protection. So I knew that. I mean, the first night I met you and we talked and I just knew, and that was so attractive and so comforting to me. That was a release for me to be like, whew.
00:41:45
Speaker
okay good like i don't have to have it all together obviously i wanted you to love me i wanted you to like me and care about me because i really do believe like i really think i fell in love with you immediately but i it was also very again wisdom beyond my years and wisdom that was godly wisdom not of my own that i believe are answered prayers from my mom many years ago but to to really have that context of you loved me or you loved Jesus more than you would ever love me. And I knew it at that moment and I was totally okay with it. It wasn't like a, this is a problem. It was like, oh my goodness, this is perfect. yeah um
00:42:25
Speaker
so um So that's the thank you the name the details of up getting up to that point. yes I think it's important to hear you know just that that perspective. yeah Absolutely.
00:42:38
Speaker
But you're ah your question here is looking back, what do I know now or what is the context? Yeah.
00:42:49
Speaker
Thinking all my broken pieces, all my baggage, we left at the door, we'll come together and everything will be fixed. Yes. Quickly figured out that that didn't happen. Correct.
00:43:00
Speaker
That's correct. Yeah. Part of that was that, that aspect, my immaturity in that, the wisdom, talked to you about wisdom. My immaturity was that, Oh good too. She loves Jesus and she's going to fix me. Yeah. good i'm glad that yeah no sure no can't do that yeah um only jesus can but no the question then being now what is love to you now on this on this side of all the turbulence and turmoil and restoration and being through all of that not that any of us have ever arrived while we still have left sure breath in our lungs here yeah but now sitting on this side of our story what is love to you
00:43:39
Speaker
Man, I mean, you know, there's the biblical response of, you know, love is patient and kind, keeps no record of wrongs. There is that. And I i don't know if I can add to that. But for me, love is is trying to understand. Like, i one of the things that I prayed often um was, Lord, give me eyes to see Megan in the way that you see her.
00:44:03
Speaker
And what are the things that I need to pay attention to that are um important to her? um And not from a standpoint of you know, before I would do things to get things, right? So very transactional throughout my life.
00:44:23
Speaker
um And transactional works in a lot of things, but it does not work in relationship and certainly not in a marriage relationship, a covenant marriage relationship. Amen.
00:44:36
Speaker
even through you know the better part of the beginning of our, certainly beginning of our marriage, was that was a transactional. And that's what I had learned. That's what I had gotten so good at was what can I do and what can i what buttons can I push and levers can I pull in order to get the things that i desire? Mm-hmm.
00:44:56
Speaker
yeah that had been very successful for me, but it was proving very not successful in our relationship. So on this side, that is something that I still pray is that how can I how can i see you in the way that the Lord looks at you?
00:45:13
Speaker
How can i cherish you? How can I make you feel safe and secure? One of the big things I learned was utilizing my strength as something that can be provided for you.
00:45:28
Speaker
that you would be able to draw from, that it would be there for you to be encouraged and um find shelter and find confidence in yourself.
00:45:40
Speaker
Whereas yeah before I'd utilize my strength to take, to take things from you, um whatever they might be. Love for me is is really, really, really impossibly difficult to do.
00:45:55
Speaker
um You can't do it on your own strength. It is only done through the Lord and His kindness. And me understanding when I began to understand how to love you was when I began understand how much God loves me and how much Jesus loves me and cares for me. When I began to understand agape love and love from the Lord, um to see that I was loved despite how unlovely I was.
00:46:25
Speaker
and then to have to And then the Bible telling us to then do that, to likewise do likewise, was you know that was a very daunting challenge and a great realization of how... And I would have probably... I would have said about myself that I'm a great, loving, kind person. I would have said that about myself. I would have said, oh, I'm a great lover. I'm unselfish. And and and that couldn't have been further from the truth. I learned how much work I had to do
00:46:57
Speaker
to
00:47:00
Speaker
continually love you. and one of the things I really prayed too was for me to find joy in doing that um because it was difficult. ah you know It was difficult to change most of what I had known or what I thought I was even very like really good at and find that, oh, you're you're not really good at this.
00:47:22
Speaker
um Come to that realization accept that and it's kind of like, okay, well now what? I'm not really good at loving my wife. I haven't done a good job at loving my wife. In fact, I've done the opposite.
00:47:37
Speaker
I have pushed her away. i have rejected her. i have failed her. and i have um you know so i have to accept that. But the the biggest the hardest thing that Getting to that point sometimes is is, even in the quietness of our heart, I think is um inevitable. you know The Bible says that we have the knowledge of of the Lord built into our hearts. like there There's a reason we we as young children know when we do wrong, even though we haven't even been taught it.
00:48:13
Speaker
And so i think it's inevitable that you do you will get it the end of yourself. I mean, obviously, unless you're a psychopath, but the majority of people get to that end of themselves and they realize their shortcomings. They realize their failures. They realize how empty they are.
00:48:30
Speaker
and And so I think the big thing for me was I certainly hit that point of the emptiness and the despair and the just... um Trying to flesh it out. Yeah, just the the coming to terms with that of like, wow, how how short I've come, how I'm not even scratching the surface of what it means to be a loving husband in a marriage.
00:48:57
Speaker
um then it's like, well, what are you going to do about it? you know and And I had great counsel in that. I'm so grateful for the men in my life of who were there to encourage me and point me to the biblical love and point me to and tell me I can do it. you know encourage me in that and say, no, you can do it. And i would they would listen to my my objections or my complaints. And then they would lovingly encourage me to keep taking that next step. I'm still figuring that out each and every day. It's such a, um when you realize you can't do it, it's a freeing moment. And so that was a real freeing moment for me.
00:49:43
Speaker
in our marriage, in my life, really, you know across the board, because it opens up so many areas where you realize that you have felt like you had it all mastered and you were good at something. And you're realizing, that man, there's a lot of areas in my life where I'm trying to do this in my own strength. So walking hand in hand with the Lord in that and and realizing that He will guide and direct me, listening the Holy Spirit speak and whisper, learning patience, learning when not to
Continuous Learning in Love
00:50:12
Speaker
talk. That is something I struggle at for sure.
00:50:16
Speaker
i feel like like I told you before, you know long ago, i always felt like I had the solution and I was unafraid to interject or bring that up. And that was like, oh, you know people would see that and say, oh that person, he's going to be a leader. And that's great. And that was encouraged. But I don't know how much that was really taught to me of like what that looked like. You know you have a a gift from the Lord. How is that developed and discipled? And so it's being discipled now, later in my life. Loving you has been...
00:50:48
Speaker
great as far as learning. It is a great challenge, but one that i i really have learned to love. like I really prayed for that. I still pray for that. i so All those things I said I pray for, I still pray.
00:51:00
Speaker
regularly in my prayer life daily to have eyes to see you in the way that the lord sees you to convict my heart in ways that i'm being unkind or unloving or i'm being quick to speak and slow to listen and then praying for joy in in that love enjoying that love and i and the lord has been faithful like he's been really good that i do enjoy it it is fun it is new each day And it's wrought with challenges and our own sins and our own you know rubbing up against each other.
00:51:36
Speaker
yeah But I feel like we have put some you know miles behind us where we are making good choices and learning how to communicate to one another. i mean, there's so many layers about that with love. We'll save those for time. And what that looks like and how we communicate that and how I communicated that. or Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great. Yeah. You passed.
00:52:02
Speaker
We'll keep you around. I feel like I talked too much. Well, I mean, you were supposed to, so mission accomplished. Okay. Great job. I just want to say at the close, um, I shared on the last episode, just that you have been so supportive in this starting and that the mic that I'm using is a podcasting mic for professionals that you bought me pretty much basically as soon as I told you that the Lord laid on my heart that I was to do a podcast and it's been sitting in my office wherever that office may be as we've moved in the last several years for four years unused and just how much of like an encouragement there were definitely times where I looked at that mic and i was like go away, you know, but I intentionally left it on my desk because I knew that it was, you know, a calling that God didn't ask me to do. he told me to do. And just the belief that you had in me, in us, in the story that God's given us to share.
00:53:00
Speaker
to purchase that and to just be like, I'm behind you. And you know you've often said, i want to be you know so the strength that you need and the shoulders that you can stand on. And so that was a practical way that you were giving me your shoulders to stand on. And so I'm just so thankful for Your encouragement, and your excitement about this happening. You know, I when I recorded the first podcast and sent you a message that I was done, you came home and did a little dance in my office and just cheering me on the whole way. And so so thankful for that and super encouraged by it.
00:53:35
Speaker
um And I let everyone know that we are known and it feels good to be that way. There's nothing to hide. and so there's no dirt to dig up, home which is just so freeing and and really awesome. So thanks for coming on And I know I'll have you back.
00:53:53
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I hope so. mean, I don't know. We'll see. We have lots to talk about um and then to unpack and to dig into more. So thank you for listening. Thank you for being here and sticking around with us this far. Is there anything you want to say briefly, my dear, to close us? Oh gosh, I don't know. um No, I would say i'm super excited for you. And um i I think I told you, um I love your obedience to what God is doing and to to something that you didn't think was a strength of yours, but it was something that you felt God...
00:54:32
Speaker
speaking to you clearly about. And so it's very admirable um to see you do that and step into spaces that you you know you don't know a bunch about the technology of it and everything that's involved with it.
00:54:46
Speaker
And you know gosh, for me, i'm a person I'm still that person of like planning my steps and making sure I'm going to you know so excel. And so, you know, i I like, I think about, you know, Indiana Jones and the and the, the last crusade, he, there's this scene where, you know, he has to take a leap of faith, um take the step out on this invisible stone walkway. And he, he does, he takes the leap of faith and he steps out and there's firm footing underneath of him. But then when he crosses and goes to the other side and order, in order for others to follow him, he takes,
00:55:28
Speaker
um like ah stone dust and throws it across the path, you know, so that all could, all could see it that would follow him. And so that is all very much like I'm much more comfortable in that space as far as like having, knowing that we're going to, you know, find success and and do that well. So it's very admirable. i mean, I'm a risk taker in certain areas where I'm not confident. I may never,
00:55:54
Speaker
go in there I'm a risk taker when I feel like I know this and I've got this. and It doesn't seem like much of a risk for me. So maybe I'm not a risk. I was going to say, it sounds like you're not a risk taker. See, I told you, our lens is so skewed as far as how we view ourselves. Totally. That's why we need the body of Christ, right? Absolutely. So yeah, just found out I'm not a risk taker, which is really defeating for me. But no, I love this time. I'm excited. It's great. I love to be able to do this. You know I'm passionate about sharing our testimony. That's one thing was a takeaway from our unique story is that we really felt together, and the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. We felt together that the Lord had put on our hearts that we were to share the story. to others, to tell it, to be an encouragement to other men and women, both married and not married, as far as what it looks like for biblical relationship with the Lord. But then more specifically, does that look like in marriage? Mm-hmm.
00:57:03
Speaker
We're passionate about marriages. We're passionate about people, all walks of life, all different ages. And God has continually been faithful to put people in front of us that we can encourage and come alongside and pray with and share. And you have been such a great partner in that. You have been such ah a great encouragement in that. Super thankful for that. I'm super thankful for this, to have this medium to be able to to share that and and maybe encourage one person, something that seems so tragic and so ending and something that the world says, oh, that's over, many and you know move
Marriage Impact for Eternity
00:57:38
Speaker
on. They could say that, oh, well, maybe there's hope that God could take this and redeem it and make it better than ever. And I'll close with that.
00:57:46
Speaker
yeah that was There was a couple that mentored us. Early on, one of our very first meetings together, gosh, it makes me emotional to think about, but that's what they said, is that they said that we know that God has a plan for you and we know that you'll come out on this other side stronger than ever.
00:58:08
Speaker
And it may not feel or look like it right now, but we really believe that. And they spoke that into our lives yeah and over us. And they can they didn't just say it that one time. They continually said it, but they said it right off the gate.
00:58:20
Speaker
And I remember thinking like, oh my goodness, they they I don't see that path. And I know you definitely. Yeah. felt that. I think I was probably maybe more optimistic at that time than you. That's what we want to be. We want to be that encouragement to people to say, God has a plan for you. And I know this isn't what you wanted. It's certainly not what he wanted, but he can take this and make beauty from ashes for sure. Amen. That was a perfect place to end. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. I love you. I love you. This was fun.
00:58:54
Speaker
The end. Thanks for coming. We'll see you next time.