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Goodpain Podcast Season 02, Episode No. 011: Maturity in Men's Sexuality & Intimacy with Amanda Jepson, LPC, CST, ACS
71 Plays1 month ago
Jeremy and Tyler take a break from their conversations to share a discussion with Amanda Jepson, Licensed Professional Counselor, Certified Sex Therapist, Board Certified Diplomate of Sexology. Amanda is an expert in sexuality including better sex intimacy and sexual trauma and instead of sex therapist hacks, she engages with a balance of maturity and fun that is approachable and honors our shared humanity.
In this discussion we use the PLISSIT Model to guide our conversation on relationships, sex, intimacy, and masculine maturity. While we use men's sexuality as a target, the conversation extends to relationships of all types.
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Transcript
Introduction: Societal Pressure on Men
00:00:00
Speaker
The pressure that men feel impacts them as an individual, that pressure is coming from a system. And unless we learn to actually notice the system, challenge the system and push back on the system, these issues are going to continue to persist.
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy to solve. What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
00:00:29
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything in between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to eliminate the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it. Welcome to the conversation.
Exploring Men's Sex and Intimacy
00:01:14
Speaker
This week we're going to tackle the topic of sex and intimacy regarding men, and it's a much more expansive conversation than that. Oftentimes when we talk about sex and intimacy or the erotic, it can be sophomoric, but that's not what we're doing here.
00:01:32
Speaker
Really what we're trying to talk about is the mature principles of relationship building in sex and intimacy, but also in romantic relationships, friendships, in mentorships. All the different dynamics that show up in sex and intimacy are also dynamics that show up in other relationships. So we specifically talk about things like permission and consent and what it takes to have the courage to have the honest conversations with ourselves about how we participate in our relationships. And so we are going to talk a little bit about the mistakes that are made within relationships that can have a path towards restoration and repair.
00:02:17
Speaker
However, there are also some things that we don't discuss at length in this conversation that we are not sanctioning. Mistakes will happen in relationships. There are some mistakes that are unconscionable.
00:02:30
Speaker
Again, we do not discuss those types
Maturity and Relationship Management
00:02:32
Speaker
of things. That's not the topic of this conversation today, but we do visit a little bit around that, particularly in what it means to show and cultivate contrition and apology and accountability and change and what that actually means when we apologize and we say those words, I'm sorry, how we actually go after real change.
00:02:52
Speaker
our topic in discussion around maturity is about how we increasingly learn to stop and pause instead of trusting our impulses. That maturity comes about cultivating those moments to stop and pause and think and engage. And permission and consent is about cultivating the skills necessary to do that well.
00:03:14
Speaker
Near the end of our conversation, we talk about and acknowledge that a lot of what we're discussing here and the mature model sounds like work. It sounds hard for many people.
00:03:25
Speaker
We're trying to dispel a little bit about the addiction to the opposite of hard. What's easy? There are manuals from pickup artists, aka con artists that claim to prove what is easy.
00:03:39
Speaker
But we're not selling easy here because none of life is easy. It is hard. It's intense. And the more we want to get to the core of what is important for us as individuals, for us in our relationships, the harder and more challenging it gets.
00:03:58
Speaker
And it takes maturity to endure that journey. In order to guide this conversation, we welcome another guest.
Guest Expert: Amanda Jepsen on Resilience and Intimacy
00:04:08
Speaker
Amanda Jepsen is a clinical therapist at the Lydahill Institute in Colorado Springs, focused on human resilience, veteran health, and trauma. She's also a lecturer for the University of Colorado, Denver.
00:04:21
Speaker
Amanda's been working with survivors of trauma for over a decade. She's a certified sex therapist and trained in various modalities and interventions for dealing with trauma, particularly that around sexual abuse.
00:04:33
Speaker
And this is likely one conversation I hope of many that we have with Amanda because she's a wealth of information. She's passionate about the work. Amanda is a leader in the space for talking about these things as adults, maturely, while also holding a sense of play and fun on a topic that is fun to talk about.
00:04:56
Speaker
Thank you for joining us. And here's the conversation.
00:05:04
Speaker
we don't have sex to or at each other, it's with. yeah and And so I think walking a line that says everything you and I are going to talk about, yes, applies to men.
00:05:17
Speaker
And we might talk maybe where there is some differential things that is applicable to men and in particular. yeah But I feel like most of we're going to talk about is going to be applicable regardless of gender, sex, orientation. These are all things that we should we should all keep in mind. Absolutely.
00:05:36
Speaker
I do see some things that are very specific to men or individuals socialized as male yeah um in terms of what the pressure society puts on. And specifically because so many of my clients are men. yeah what their experience is growing up, what their experience is through trauma, through war, through military training. yeah There's a lot of things that impact them very differently than I've seen it impact other genders too. So okay ah totally comfortable talking about that as well.
Understanding the PLISSIT Model in Therapy
00:06:05
Speaker
in your work in coaching other therapists, talk about approaching the topic of intimacy, sexuality, sexual trauma, using the framework of the plicit model. And when I look at the plicit model, i see an opportunity to actually take a step back as lay people yeah And actually unpack that model and say, what are we actually doing here? I thought we would use that as a conceit. We're really just choosing an area here to start.
00:06:31
Speaker
One area a lot of men in particular to struggle with is the concept of consent. And maybe using that and holding that in abeyance and say, okay, consent, what does that really mean? What does it, not from a formulaic perspective, not from a check the box perspective, but from a lived experience dynamic. I'd like that to come to life. And I right now see potentially a way to use the plicit model to kind of unpack that a little bit.
00:07:00
Speaker
So the plicit model is used a lot in sex therapy spaces. um And it's obviously an acronym, but it is also used beyond sex therapy spaces. I actually stumbled across it first when I was researching to teach my students and it was used in nurses ah training um specifically to help nurses.
00:07:21
Speaker
approach clients ah patients and different issues that they were experiencing but what the plicit model stands for is first permission giving um so we are giving permission to our patients and our clients to talk about things um specifically sex and sexuality but it can actually expand beyond that we're saying you've got permission to talk about this you've got permission to not talk about this you've got permission to make changes you have permission to change nothing and i think that that is one of the most powerful things is we're giving that power to the other person to decide what is and isn't going to be a focus. And the important thing with the Plissett Model is the farther we get into it, the more complicated and complex that it gets. It oftentimes requires more training, more education, more knowledge in there. So after permission, we're getting into limited information.
00:08:11
Speaker
Limited information means I'm not sharing everything I know about the topic, which for somebody like me sometimes needs a little bit of restraint because I can fire hose a topic if I want to. That doesn't mean that's going to be helpful for the person in front of me. And so I am tailoring specific information for them, limited information that matches what they're wanting to talk about, what the issue is that they're experiencing, um and what would be helpful for them. Because one of the things as the professional in the space is,
00:08:40
Speaker
making sure that I'm not throwing my client in the deep end yeah before they're ready. um From there, it's going to be specific suggestions. This is where we really start to see the training and education come in um because a generalist therapist may not be able to have specific suggestions for a client in regards to sex or sexuality or gender or interests that they might have.
00:09:05
Speaker
um And so this might be as a sex therapist, I might bring in specific exercises for my client to go home to improve communication with their partner or um specific suggestions for them to go home and be able to explore specific types of sexuality with their partner.
00:09:23
Speaker
um Generalist therapist might go, I don't know. um So it's really fun to be able to apply that knowledge that I have. From there, we get to the smallest pocket in terms of plicit, and that is the intensive therapy piece.
00:09:35
Speaker
um Intensive therapy really does require specialized knowledge, specialized training, specialized interventions. So that might be therapist like me. I'm trained in EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.
00:09:50
Speaker
where I can help a client who might be presenting with a sex issue, but really what we're dealing with is trauma. um I don't have to refer out to that, but some sex therapists might have to refer out for that. um It might also be looking at pelvic floor therapy. I'm not a pelvic floor therapist. um I don't touch my clients as a sex therapist, but if I have a client presenting with something where they need that, I'm going to refer them out. And so this plicit model means the majority of people that present to us,
00:10:20
Speaker
are going to be helped by that permission giving. One of my favorite stories is a colleague who's come in and talked to my students um shared a story about a client came in for one session.
00:10:33
Speaker
All she did in that one session was give permission for the client to talk about things. And at the end of it, the client was like, I think I'm done. All the client needed was permission to go there and permission to not change anything.
00:10:47
Speaker
And one session that client felt good. um And so the majority of people we see are affected positively by permission giving. um And from there, it's like the smallest percentage need the intensive therapy, something like five to 10%.
00:11:02
Speaker
And so as we get down that continuum of required training, we're dealing with a smaller and smaller pool of clients. um And where I see that come into real life for your average person is when you're connecting with people,
00:11:17
Speaker
When you're having conversations with people, giving that permission to have the tough conversations, giving permission to be real, giving permission to protect yourself is going to help the most amount of people and also going to positively impact the most of your relationships. Yeah.
00:11:34
Speaker
I'd like to, if we could maybe get a little bit playful with the nature of some of the terms themselves. Absolutely. And what they mean underneath them. And and i'll I'll give you, I'll run through kind of some of the notes I have on each of these. But i first want to recognize that what you said is almost this inverted triangle that says we start broad and and as we move down the model itself, we get more focused and intensity is also increasing as we get further in.
00:12:05
Speaker
You just stumbled across. So the graphic that we do use to actually display the plispet model oftentimes is that inverted triangle. So, okay yep, absolutely. Okay. and And part of what I want to to correlate this to is the fact that when we talk about relationships, whether they are whether they are intimate and and sexual in nature, romantic, friendships even all of them follow that model as well. We move from a broad level of agreement to increasingly more intensity.
00:12:39
Speaker
Now, when we do that in relationship, as things get more intense, we will oftentimes equate intensity that is positive as the relationship is healthy.
00:12:50
Speaker
And then we equate intensity to the opposite direction, whether that's through conflict as negative. But intensity itself isn't a polarization of good versus bad. It's a recognition that we're going deeper and that that that's part of what the model is inviting us into is to depth.
00:13:11
Speaker
and more authenticity and genuine within how we show up. And it has to start first with what you you had here is the permission. and And part of that is I'd like to discuss what is it that we're getting giving permission to in the context of someone that has we have an attraction to or someone that we're interested in that one of those things and all is giving permission for the things that are in the room already for us to acknowledge they're in the room.
Consent as an Ongoing Commitment
00:13:39
Speaker
Absolutely. You also just stumbled across ah an addendum to the plicit model. um So people that have worked with us for a long time have actually developed the explicit model. And that means you are doing permission giving through every single stage of this this way of thinking, this framework.
00:14:00
Speaker
And so you're giving permission in permission, but you're also still getting and giving permission when we're talking about information or interventions or therapies. Right. So we want to make sure that we are still getting that permission as we're getting deeper and deeper and deeper with somebody.
00:14:19
Speaker
um I would love for you to unpack that further, particularly in the concept that we were holding in abeyance with consent. Absolutely. Because i think that that this is part of, for a lot of of men in particular, will or or or men, um individuals who identify male We want, but we have a tendency to want to say, set it and forget it.
00:14:42
Speaker
I did that. i completed that. Now I move on to the next thing. yep And you are talking about staying intentional, mindful, and aware throughout the entire process. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:14:57
Speaker
When we're talking about intimacy, it is important that there is this idea of maintenance of intimacy. it isn't set it and forget it. It isn't i checked that box. So I'm done with that.
00:15:09
Speaker
um We had that conversation. We don't have to go back there again. It is really important that we continue to get and give permission as we get more intimate with somebody, as we build these deeper connections with somebody.
00:15:22
Speaker
Because just because you've had that conversation once doesn't mean that it's done. It doesn't mean that you're not going to feel differently or that person isn't going to feel differently. It doesn't mean that there wasn't a bad day at work or a good day at work that might change the parameters of what is and isn't okay.
00:15:38
Speaker
And it doesn't mean that we have to have the same conversations every single time. um there's this really fascinating theory called a consent castle.
The Complexity of Consent in Relationships
00:15:47
Speaker
um And a consent castle, and ah this is a thing for me, I mention it almost every time I talk. yeah um But it's this really beautiful comic about as we build relationships with somebody, as we get and give consent, we start to build a structure. It means that somebody that has been in my life for a long time, I don't necessarily have to ask them for a hug or to give them a hug every time I see them, right?
00:16:10
Speaker
I've given them a hug enough time that we just throw our arms open and we know that that invitation is there, right? um But over time, this structure gets bigger and more complex.
00:16:20
Speaker
And there are things that we've already navigated, that we've already given implied consent for but that doesn't mean that we can't still check in on it it doesn't mean that just because this wing of this castle has been built that we can't go back and remodel it or demo it or start over again and i think that's such a big piece of this when we're talking about permission is we are giving permission to revisit parts of this castle that we've already built we are giving permission to build on wings on structures we've already built, right? We don't have to always renegotiate, rediscuss the same things, but we can if we want to.
00:16:58
Speaker
And I think that that's really powerful, um specifically when we're talking about individuals that are socialized as male, because there is this idea of, I did the thing, I'm done, right? There is not necessarily that personal investment in getting the consent, right?
00:17:12
Speaker
um I work with generations of men that were taught to get um the a lack of a no is yes. Right. um Instead of affirmative consent, um instead of expressed consent.
00:17:26
Speaker
Sometimes enthusiastic, but enthusiastic is a hard, like it's a really high bar to clear yeah sometimes. But we need to make sure that we're still having these conversations. We need to make sure that we are still checking in with ourselves, checking in with the people around us. Yeah. Because that's the other thing that I see with men is they are so focused on the people around them that sometimes they forget to actually check in with themselves. You, and that was my next question. Yeah.
00:17:52
Speaker
but About the permission is is that there's there's so much of consent, of permission, that is almost this subject-object narration that says, I, as the subject, as the embodiment of my own subjective experience, when I'm talking about permission and consent, I'm soliciting that from somebody else. Yep. Yep.
00:18:14
Speaker
and there is i mean in in the nature of language there is an inherent implicit object objectification of that is is that i i am asking for this from somebody else as opposed to and in two words here that that really jumped out at me was you you used the the castle as the building of the structure And oftentimes that word structure in a socialized male world is is that it is the male's job to build the structure. And how is it different when we stop looking at each other as objects and each of us as playing a specific role in collaborating to create that structure? And what are the permissions we must give to ourselves in order to do that?
00:19:01
Speaker
Not perfectly, not setting that bar.
Men's Pursuit of Perfection and Accountability
00:19:04
Speaker
Nope. Right. Because I think that's one of the things about consent that oftentimes gets men wrapped around the axle is, well, how do I protect it? How do I do this perfectly?
00:19:14
Speaker
It's this false bar of saying, and I think that's a little bit of what drives towards the set it and for forget it is, well, i did the things. I did exactly what the script told me, what everybody's telling me to do. hmm.
00:19:26
Speaker
Instead, it's a matter of I'm consistently building and rebuilding and increasing the sensitivity to where are there some some patches that need in in the castle that need to be addressed.
00:19:41
Speaker
So talk to me a little bit about that, the the collaborative aspect of building a structure together and what you need to give to yourself in order to submit to the uncertainty of doing that work.
00:19:53
Speaker
I'm glad that you touched on that idea of perfection because there are two flavors that I tend to see with this. People who are trying to do it perfectly for various reasons. Everything because everything from it matters to them or there's the CYA mentality sometimes.
00:20:07
Speaker
um And the other one is people who don't even think about it. They're just moving through life, moving through relationships, and they're not considering ah protecting themselves or doing it perfectly. They just are.
00:20:20
Speaker
um There are inherent problems sometimes with both of those. um i think I think beyond that, though, um is when we are talking about permission in terms of consent, it's making sure that we are showing up in a way that honors who we are. So there's this idea of internal permission or i like to frame it differently as honesty with self um and i see a lot of folks but specifically men trying to fulfill a role that's been given to them um and that happens in relationships you just talked about being a builder right um i see that happen in sex a lot they feel a lot of pressure to show up a certain way or perform a certain way or perform a certain certain service if you will
00:21:06
Speaker
um And I see it also in a lot of their platonic relationships with other men. um There is a lack sometimes of permission giving or honesty in that male to male friendship a lot actually that I see. um And so that permission piece is really important.
00:21:22
Speaker
um It's that internal integrity, that internal honesty, but also there is this external honesty and external intentionality and integrity. um That's a lot to manage. And one of the things when I work with folks is stepping outside of the roles we've been given, um these expectations we've been given.
00:21:41
Speaker
and making sure that we're having the conversations that feel important to us in that moment. We're not ignoring our feelings. We're not ignoring those signposts or those warning flags that pop up and we're talking about it. Making sure that if we're talking about sex in particular, that we are putting up ah kind of signposts, right? This is where I'm intending to go. Are you with me? um This is something that I would like to do. Are you with me?
00:22:07
Speaker
Are you enjoying this thing that I'm actively doing? And I think when we talk about consent, it can feel heavy or burdensome to people. Like I need to make sure that they say yes.
00:22:18
Speaker
That's definitely a way to do it. But also, are you enjoying when I am doing this? Would you like me to and describe in detail for the person and see what the response is?
00:22:29
Speaker
That is a really erotic and sensual way to get consent. Right. um And people forget that consent can be sexy. um It's really fun when I work with clients and they actually have a negotiation with somebody and they get to disclose, for instance, their STI testing background.
00:22:47
Speaker
And that feels rote. That feels medical. Clinical. yeah Yeah, absolutely. And people get to have the experience of, oh, my gosh, that was really erotic and fun. And I'm like, yes. Yeah.
00:22:58
Speaker
Because that can be sexy, right? um When you're talking through your day with a partner and trying to figure out all of the things that have to get done, there is a way that you can do that that isn't just checking that box, but it's creating a roadmap. And I think when we're talking about ongoing permission giving, what we are doing is learning how to draw a map, not as a singular person, but collaboratively and collectively. Everybody there, everybody that's a part is building this map. Or if we go back to the castle, the schematics, right? We are all engineers in this.
00:23:32
Speaker
I don't want it to fall to one person in the relationship. We are seeing that in a lot of different ways. And we're seeing a lot of discourse happening in our society about how it impacts men.
00:23:43
Speaker
Which I think is getting throttled down a little bit. and We're seeing a lot of the discourse right now being focused on how it's impacting women. And I think that that's important to to discuss the mental load pieces. But I think if we look at it more collaboratively, we're trying to disperse the work across the people involved.
00:24:01
Speaker
We're trying to disperse the mental planning across the people that are involved. But I think the biggest piece is honesty, because if you're not honest with yourself and you're doing what you think is expected of you, it's a disservice to you.
00:24:13
Speaker
It's a disservice to anybody else involved in that process. And it's going to impact consent. I see a lot of people, specifically men, saying yes to situations that they don't want to be in because they think they're supposed to. um I see a lot of men beating themselves up for performance. in situations and that's not just sex that's work that's relationships that's everything across the board because they think it's what they're supposed to do that's not honest yeah I what I heard you say there um i I think you're already starting to just move us further and deeper into the plicit model mm-hmm
00:24:49
Speaker
is because learning how to give permission almost in a binary way of I'm giving permission, I'm not, is almost the the false equation to what consent is is, is that consent itself ends up being falsely equated to just the top of that model. and and But what you just outlined is this outstanding question of do I have the self-wisdom to even be able to give permission permission And one of the things that we might need to give ourselves permission for first is that I don't have all the answers right now.
00:25:22
Speaker
And if I want to get more access to that, then I need to start moving down to, first of all, you you talk about the limited information. That's the next step in the plicit model. Mm-hmm. And again, inverting that from being how a therapist shows up in the room with someone versus now I'm the person and I'm discussing my relationship with with the limit of the information that I have at any given moment, whether that is one of the first things i put on here was folk tales and you started illustrating some of these that the folk tales that exist around men and sex is a shorthand that creates a an inherent limit on the information a block if i'm supposed to be if i'm living by some form of rules governed behavior that says i'm supposed to say yes in this situation because yeah i'm immediately blocking i'm using that rule as a block
00:26:16
Speaker
to information about what my experience is, a block to myself. and and And so how do we go about exploring the limits when there might be a lot of things that are unconscious to us that that we're not aware of? How do we do that in a relationship knowing that we first may not want to do harm in as we navigate this world? How do I become aware of the things that are committing harm that are not I'm not aware of? I think that's the biggest thing is we are going to screw up.
00:26:50
Speaker
We are going to do harm, sometimes intentionally, most often unintentionally. And I think the biggest thing is accepting that. um You were talking previously about um any sort of ah intensity, ah positive intensity versus negative intensity and how that's kind of a false dichotomy.
00:27:11
Speaker
Um, when we make mistakes, when we do something, even on purpose, when we cause harm, that is intense, but it doesn't have to be negative. Um, one of the things that I tell, newbie therapists that I work with, but I also say this to clients is how we respond to mistakes or screw ups says a lot. It's an amazing opportunity for repair. And I think one of the first things first is accepting the fact that in your relationships, personal or professional,
00:27:40
Speaker
Sexual or platonic you're gonna screw up be prepared to Respond in a way that is Holding integrity for who you are as a person if it's a relationship that's important to you Embrace that opportunity for repair and I think that is one of the biggest issues we have in our society is we don't treat um and we don't ah We don't teach repair We don't teach how to actually be accountable. We don't teach how to recover. And i think that's the biggest things is being honest with yourself about how am I going to respond when I do screw up because it's going to happen. um And I think that it's really important. And there is a sense of specifically with men, this idea of I don't screw up.
00:28:29
Speaker
I'm infallible. Or I'm supposed to be infallible. So when mistakes do occur or intentional choices go the way that we didn't expect them to, somebody gets hurt. There is this inability to take responsibility for it um that does real damage to the individual and the people that were also affected.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah. Everything i heard you say right there is we don't know how to say I'm sorry.
Effective Apologies and Genuine Change
00:28:53
Speaker
Yeah. And and and there's almost this myth making around apology itself. Yep. That says, if i if I apologize, if I take responsibility, then the world falls apart. Or I said, I'm sorry, I'm done with that. and I don't have to do anything else other than say the words. tell Tell me more. Tell me more about that.
00:29:15
Speaker
ah That's one that I see a lot is I told her I'm sorry, obviously speaking about cishet relationships here, right? So um I said, I'm sorry, what else am I supposed to do here?
00:29:27
Speaker
um Like an apology is magic, like an apology is a line item that gets checked off. um And I think one of the things that I talk to people in my life, and this is not just clients, this is not just students,
00:29:42
Speaker
This is in my relationships in the real world is apologies are one step of this process. If you do screw up, if you do cause harm, you need to not just acknowledge the harm, which can be the apology, right?
00:29:57
Speaker
But it's actually noticing the impact that happened and acknowledging that impact. um At the end of the day, intention can be important, right? Even if you didn't intend to, there was still impact though. So we really need to focus on that impact that occurred.
00:30:11
Speaker
Past that, then we need to actually demonstrate change. And I think that's the piece that gets missed almost across the board. um And I think that's the part that's really important.
00:30:22
Speaker
You've said you're sorry. You've maybe acknowledged the impact. Usually there's a heavy, heavy focus on, but I didn't mean to. I didn't intend to. um But then we need to make sure that we demonstrate that we learned something from that incident because we're showing up differently.
00:30:42
Speaker
Because we don't want that outcome to happen again. Because otherwise what happens is we get stuck in a cycle of, I'm sorry, I did it again. I'm sorry, I did it again. I'm sorry, I did it again.
00:30:53
Speaker
That undermines trust in the relationship, but it can also undermine your trust in yourself because you're stuck in this pattern and you're looping. um And I watch that really hit self-esteem for the individual, um but I see it undermine the relationships.
00:31:09
Speaker
um People stop talking about things. People stop trusting each other, right? When the same mistake is happening, um there's all these memes going around about an apology without change as manipulation, which makes sense.
00:31:23
Speaker
But I think that it also ah does a disservice to the individual patterns that are happening. yeah To be reductionist. Yeah. Like all of our memes. Absolutely. Yeah. Good point in there, but sometimes it doesn't fully capture the nuance. Yeah. um And so I think when we're talking about apologies, it's important to say what you mean. Don't just apologize because that's what you think the other person wants you to do. um Be honest with yourself about what actually happened here um and be honest with the other person. I usually talk to people about making an action plan. apology not that it has to be this in-depth but you know um i use the example when i'm talking about intent versus impact if we are wrestling and i break your leg um i i didn't intend to but i still broke your leg right so i might apologize for breaking your leg offering you help and assistance with your broken leg but then also tell you about in the future if you do choose to wrestle with me again i'm going to really pay attention to these things
00:32:22
Speaker
um and i might ask you to tell me if i'm bending your leg in a way that it might break right that's very different than i just walk up to you and break your leg and walk away right um that that one there's a good example of intent actually mattering right in that situation But also, if I just walk up and break your leg, you're probably not going to have any repair conversation with me. It doesn't matter if I apologize or not. You're probably going to stay away from me.
00:32:47
Speaker
um So if you didn't intend to harm somebody, acknowledge that. But then let them know how you're going to try to not harm them again in the future. And be accountable if you do. the nuance on permission giving, it uncovers new areas of giving permission with one of those being the the biggest that I'm hearing is giving ourselves the permission to say, i don't know.
00:33:12
Speaker
i don't know right now. and And using that example of the wrestling and the breaking of the leg is that there is in every activity like that, there's always the risk of harm ahha regardless of intention and not wanting to harm anybody. It's the fact that the nature of the activity itself carries that risk that sometimes for a lot of us, we create this mythical belief that we can navigate this world in a way that if we just figure out the formula, if we just figure out exactly what to do, then we eliminate Yeah.
00:33:51
Speaker
ah so So part of the permission also is is that it goes back to what you said when you said, we are going to make mistakes. now Now, for those who are listening that where where we said, where where you you outlined, you're going to make mistakes. We can apologize for those. There are still bright line tests for this is when somebody intentionally, we're not talking about extreme maladaptive behavior that's showing up in this. is is that it's It's not the the individual.
00:34:21
Speaker
haphazardly going out there and saying, hey, i I'm going to make mistakes. There there is a difference here. yes we're We're talking specifically about that difference that says, well-intentioned, you're working on improving. You don't know what is coming forward as you you're going to learn through trial and error, potentially. Potentially. And we want to say that even even going through just saying, I'm going to learn everything by trial and error undermines our very, the capabilities of our humanity to say, we can be intentional. We can actually be mindful of what's going on here.
00:34:55
Speaker
even carrying certain limitations. and And what I heard you say here with the limited information that we have is as I'm making mistakes, as I'm learning to give myself permission, I can say also, I don't know how to apologize yet. Mm-hmm.
00:35:12
Speaker
I don't know why I might be apologizing. I know that for me, there are times when I've apologized to make the the disharmony go away under the hopes of that that we can get back to a reconnection to reconciliation. And what I hear you say is is that, no, there's ah there's a different mix here. There is one actually acknowledging, and i think you gave ah a great rubric for how we do that. Mm-hmm.
00:35:36
Speaker
And then also holding the space for, we honor the individual in front of us because by also letting go of what what the cure period is going to look like, what what restoration is going to look like.
00:35:50
Speaker
how how does that how How do we start to learn and mature and cultivate that that that wisdom yeah for showing up and allowing those dynamics to start to to teach us to be better?
00:36:03
Speaker
I think that I would be remiss to not talk about one little side thing that popped up for me is this idea of weaponized incompetence. um I am seeing this applied to male populations disproportionately. This idea of I didn't know nobody told me um almost as a excuse to not take responsibility. You are allowed to not know what you don't know. But once you know that you don't know, you are now responsible for learning about that.
Navigating Responsibility and Complexity
00:36:36
Speaker
Not knowing does not get you out of the impacts that you're not knowing caused. And I think that that's really important to discuss and acknowledge. We are not responsible if we don't know we don't know something.
00:36:49
Speaker
But as soon as it comes to light that we we need to know this or are not knowing has harmed somebody, we're responsible for that harm. We don't get to shirk that responsibility regardless of gender.
00:37:01
Speaker
um But it is something that I am seeing in social media circles. um And in a lot of female driven spaces, this this idea that there's a lot that men don't know um and they're not knowing essentially oftentimes gets weaponized in order to continue to not know. um There's a safety in ignorance. Absolutely. Which, I mean, that that's that's the part of what we would what we would identify is is that, and and I see this with a lot of of coaching clients that we hide behind a degree of complexity. Yeah.
00:37:35
Speaker
We hide, we, you know, the example I use frequently is even like 2008, 2009 financial crisis, which the responsibility for that financial crisis which is the responsibility for that was significantly in the hands of financial leaders in this country. And after it was done, after everything, after shit hit the fan, yeah it was, well, but here's the thing. It's so complex.
00:38:01
Speaker
yeah Nobody else will know this. We're the only ones. Give us back to the keys to the car and let us keep driving. And and there's i mean that inverse of that is saying like, look, there's no perfect way to get to consent. There's no way. no How do I learn these things?
00:38:19
Speaker
Let me keep behaving the way that that I'll get there eventually. you You almost just have to trust me that I'll get there. and And I think embedded in that is some of what you were saying about the apology, which is Hey, I can say, I'm sorry. and i and And that checks the box. And then I get to keep going and doing the same thing. yep And there's something else at play there.
00:38:43
Speaker
And if you follow the incentives, it is there' there's a lack of accountability. Absolutely. Responsibility at the end of the day. um I'm going to step into a different space. yeah So I work with a lot of kinky folks. I'm ah pretty deeply embedded in kink spaces. I do a lot of education there.
Insights from Kink Spaces on Consent
00:39:01
Speaker
There are a lot of different consent models in kink spaces that I think the general public can benefit from understanding. And this is really close to plicit as well. So this is I'm like all of these acronyms in my head right now.
00:39:13
Speaker
um But when we look at kink spaces, we do see that, yes, issues occur in terms of negotiation, but it isn't black and white. It is here's something that I'm interested in. Are you interested in? Let's talk about it.
00:39:27
Speaker
um It isn't just consent, but we are also talking about desire. And there's this new idea that I've been talking with educators on is this idea of capacity. Just because you've consented to it, just because we both desire it, just because we've had this conversation, do we actually have the capacity for it right now? And when we start talking to people about this, that's the risk piece.
00:39:49
Speaker
We need to make sure that we are risk aware in our relationships in general, in the risks we take. Do we understand what the outcomes could be positive or negative? And are we okay with those? When we're talking about relationships, I think of the Shakespeare quote, it's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. Right.
00:40:10
Speaker
If I pursue this friendship, if I pursue this relationship, if I pursue this one night stand, I'm And I okay with whatever the outcome could be here. Have we discussed what the outcome could be here? Are we on the same page of what these risks are?
00:40:26
Speaker
Are we being honest with ourselves and one another about what these risks could be? Right. um So in in kink spaces, it's called risk aware consensual kink. Right. Rack. That's the old older way of thinking about it.
00:40:39
Speaker
um since then we've seen some new evolutions there's this personal responsibility informed right so oh we're going beyond this we are having this conversation with one another i'm taking responsibility for the choices that i'm making but we are sharing this information with one another so that we can both be informed so that I'm not relying both just on myself, but I'm also making myself just a little bit vulnerable by listening to your information as well so that we can make a choice and consent, right?
00:41:12
Speaker
And I think if we bring some of those ideas into this idea of the plicit model into this idea of navigating relationships, we're starting to get a wider picture of what we need. Risk is a huge piece of it. But again, if you don't know what you don't know,
00:41:29
Speaker
How can you be making informed choices, right? And so talking with the other people, being really bare about what your intentions are, what your hopes are, listening to theirs, you get a better idea of risk. You get a better idea of what honesty really is.
00:41:45
Speaker
You get a better idea of when we're talking about increasing depth, what that might actually mean. Or sometimes we don't want to go deeper. Sometimes we do want a casual friendship or a casual encounter. We want just a surface level, but we need to be open about that with people.
00:42:01
Speaker
um It's that honesty piece. It's that permission giving piece that is really central to a lot of this. But this idea of risk is a big part of it. um When I talk with folks, when i when I look at the various types of education that I do or therapy that I'm doing
Trauma's Impact on Risk Assessment
00:42:19
Speaker
with people or... personal conversations in my life that is such a big piece of it is what are the potential outcomes of this and am i okay with it and a lot of times people aren't thinking that far out um i work with a lot of trauma survivors yeah um and trauma especially if it's active in your brain impacts your ability to see down the road you might be anxious right and considering all of the possible outcomes
00:42:47
Speaker
but you're not able to actually see which one of those outcomes are likely um or you're worried about just the next couple of steps putting your your feet in front of you and you're not looking at where you're going.
00:42:57
Speaker
Right. um And so understanding, too, that when we're talking about reduced capacity, sometimes it is as simple as you're not able to see what those risks are.
00:43:09
Speaker
And beyond just not knowing what you don't know, you're not able to see the trajectory that you're on or the trajectory that you're putting other people on. um And knowing that sometimes can both be overwhelming and freeing at the same time for people.
Future Expectations and Relational Dynamics
00:43:23
Speaker
In the Western culture, so much of what we have been taught, and males in particular have been socialized, is to essentially guarantee the future. That's a lot of pressure. it it's Whether it's through structure, whether it's through analysis, whether it's through domination, whether all of those pieces that play into that. are manifest and and they move into lots of different areas. And one of those areas that I heard come forth with this also is, do we have the capacity for seeing what, you know, how we show up in this space or what's going to happen or the...
00:44:00
Speaker
And the answer is, is that we can we can go about gathering, talking to other people, getting wisdom. There is still this aspect that says, and Lori Paul um at Yale talks about the transformative experience. Yeah. Is this that therere we are going to have experiences that the person that made a decision to enter into the experience is not the person that is on the other side.
00:44:24
Speaker
And and that that foundationally, you can never make decisions on that person's behalf. Nope. That person is inheriting the decisions of the person beforehand. And yet sometimes what we want to do, and I see a lot of this, the shame and guilt.
00:44:42
Speaker
pop up here is that future person, now that they have a specific set of information based on that experience that had to be lived through in order to develop that perspective, wants to now shame and guilt that past person who's still there and say, why didn't you see this? Why didn't you hear this? why And as men, a lot of what I grew up with was you better get that figured out beforehand because that you'll be hit with the full accountability of that.
00:45:10
Speaker
yeah And I think that's a little bit of saying ah of what I see is, and and I'll say this is the lack of courage for a lot of men to take responsibility, to take accountability is almost what you talked about was that that appeal to, yeah but I didn't know.
00:45:28
Speaker
yeah and it's, well, you weren't supposed to know this. What you need to know is is how to stare at that thing, to let it look back at you. And to start using that as a means for saying, how did I violate myself in these ways?
00:45:43
Speaker
how did i how did How was I ignorant to parts of myself that existed that were really important to me that I did not recognize the importance of those? particularly in relationship to somebody else that I might care about that says, I went into this thinking my intentions were right. I'd thought through it, all these different things. And on the other side, you found out that how you showed up in that situation or what you did is is that you might have exerted some coercion or you might have have used your weaponized your emotional experience in a way that undermined the person that you care about that's in front of you. And that if I look in the mirror of that, that's not something I want to do. And I and and i talk, i mean, most men, most people that I talk to, they don't want to do that. no
00:46:32
Speaker
They just, there's there's a significant amount of fear, anxiety, shame, guilt around looking at that image and using it as a means to say, i want to allow this to shape me into a closer approximation of who I actually want to be in this
Embracing Discomfort for Growth
00:46:50
Speaker
world. yeah And can I endure the pain, discomfort, suffering, distress that comes along with making mistakes? Mm-hmm.
00:46:59
Speaker
There's a ah several different paths there for me yeah as well. um i think I think one of the things that popped back up for me while you were talking was that permission giving piece of, yes, you might not know, but are you okay with figuring it out? Can you give yourself permission to figure it out as you go? Can you give yourself permission to stop and pause and take it in? Can you give yourself time and permission to get permission from other people to do this collaboratively? I don't want accountability and responsibility falling on one person in a mutual situation.
00:47:37
Speaker
um I work with a lot of couples and I will say that very rarely, very, very rarely is it all one person's fault. Things are collaborative. Right. And they compile and they build over time. And sometimes stopping and pausing is really powerful.
00:47:55
Speaker
And so giving yourself permission to take a moment and assess, take a moment and observe. I see a lot of men feeling like not only do they have to be the one to make the decision, but they have to make that decision quickly.
00:48:10
Speaker
Mm hmm. Almost impulsively sometimes. And that's where a lot of the consequences come from. That's where a lot of the outcomes, the risk comes from. Because had there been a stop and a pause, that decision might have been very different. Permission to slow down.
00:48:25
Speaker
Yeah. Or permission to not. Yes. Yes. Right. so Sometimes that you're giving yourself permission to not do the thing. Yeah. And I see a lot of men feeling pressure to show up and do things that they don't want to do um But they feel obligated to. And obligation is really powerful. um Guilt and shame are wanting to go back and make different decisions. And when I work with people that have shame involved,
00:48:54
Speaker
Sometimes shame is when you make these decisions in the future, what are you going to do differently? Right. But sometimes shame is unpacking messages that you've received and letting go.
00:49:05
Speaker
They are messages that were handed to you that don't match what you think, what you feel. And so a big piece of that is permission to let go of things that no longer serve you or suit you. hmm.
00:49:15
Speaker
And that's really hard. um It's unpacking boxes that society or family or previous partners or previous relationships have given you and you have a warehouse of them. yeah um And unpacking those boxes is, again, terrifying, but freeing.
00:49:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think what you, so we've talked about permission. We've talked about going into getting curious about the things that we're carrying with us, the folk tales and those and the limited information that we, we don't know what's limited and what's, what, what, what we need to be exposed to. and and then the next one is, is the specific suggestions. When we're talking specific suggestions, these are the things that we do, but we want to make sure that it matches what we're doing.
00:50:00
Speaker
And so a lot of times people, as therapists, we're trying to give people toolboxes, right? You have all of these tools, you have all of these skills, you have all of these problem solving techniques.
00:50:11
Speaker
um But when I'm working with men, they've been given one, right? Which is oftentimes fight. Mm-hmm. And they're trying to use that one tool to fix everything. Right. I don't know if you ever had to change a pane of glass, but a hammer is not the right tool for that. And so when I am approaching specific suggestions with people, it's making sure that you're pulling the right tool from your toolbox that matches the issue in front of you.
00:50:39
Speaker
And I think one of the most powerful things that we can do is make sure that we have cultivated a ah diverse set of skills and tools that we can use.
00:50:51
Speaker
um And I think that's going to be the most powerful in terms of those tiny little steps is first things first, looking at what you have at your disposal and making sure that you are using the right tool for the job in front of you.
00:51:05
Speaker
It is incredibly small. But it is also huge at the same time. um And I think being able to discern that is is nuanced.
The Value of Vulnerability and Curiosity
00:51:15
Speaker
um But it is important in terms of intentionality.
00:51:20
Speaker
And it is important in terms of honesty. Because if you stop and you pause and you observe what you have at your fingertips and you take that risk of admitting, i don't have the right tool for this job. And we're going to go back to that idea of what we don't know and trying to figure out what you're missing and what you need. um I think that's some of the biggest small steps you can do is looking at what you can use in this situation and being honest with yourself about whether or not you have it. And then being honest with the other people or person about whether or not you have it.
00:51:51
Speaker
Because there's a level of vulnerability in that, both internal you know integrity and vulnerability with yourself, but also integrity and vulnerability with the person or people in front of you um that really invites that collaboration.
00:52:06
Speaker
Because if you're missing that tool, the other person might have it. um And what a sign of trust to allow the other person to show up for you in that moment. um And I find that a lot of men don't want that vulnerability.
00:52:20
Speaker
They don't want to admit that they don't know. They don't want to admit that they don't have it. um Because that is a feeling that we don't oftentimes teach our men and boys to handle is that unknowing. They're supposed to have it all figured out.
00:52:30
Speaker
A lot of the conversations we've been having this season also is is that there is an inherent ah belief that men themselves are a singular tool. They are the hammer. And and this ah we do the same thing over and over. And and and being a predictable, singular, simple tool can be stabilizing.
00:52:56
Speaker
for so For some people can be can provide structure. You know what you're getting. You know, you it's predictable. You know what kind of damage you could make. You know what you're you're you're capable of doing.
00:53:08
Speaker
And yet the feedback that i that I routinely get that I know about myself is i am not one tool. Nope. I i myself want to, i am more multifaceted. and And all the men, both Tiffany and I, my wife and i were involved in jujitsu as well. And this very singular view and the gym that we chose was one that at the very least said men and people in general are not involved with with this purely for domination sake or to prove themselves. there There are lots of different reasons we do things. And the outstanding question that I hear you ask with that, that kind of cultivating of the tools is can we within ourselves cultivate the perception skills to listen, to hear, to see the different perspectives that are in the room?
00:54:02
Speaker
And first, can we first say, is I don't know how to do that right now. I don't know how to do it yet. Yeah. Can I adopt the curiosity? Can I adopt the humility for starting to ask? And that is deeply in conflict with the socialization of males is we don't ask. Like you what you said. Nope. We don't ask. We don't even ask for permission, which is one of the, I mean, it's fake it till you make it. and and Absolutely. All of those pieces that that's deeply in conflict with what's been ingrained, how, how, how,
00:54:37
Speaker
and and And I hesitate to say this with, you know, it being just men is because my raising three daughters and being in this circle is is that in order to be validated in the professional workspace and women have to are are being encouraged to become more male like in that vein. Yes. And really what we're calling for is that that curiosity and creativity and possibility and imagination for saying, for calling forth being surprised. And I think it's also important to note, too, that when we're talking about the gender differences, for the most part, most of them are socialized.
00:55:17
Speaker
Most of these things that we are talking about are not inherent. um When we look at male brains and female brains, there are more differences between female brains than there are between male and female brains, right? Right.
00:55:31
Speaker
So a lot of this is messages that you've been passed, boxes you've been handed to carry, right? So to stop and pause and actually look at what's in that box and decide what you want to keep and what you want to get rid of um is really, really powerful.
00:55:47
Speaker
And then looking at, okay, I've gotten rid of all the things I don't want anymore. What do I want to add? Mm-hmm. That's where the bulk of the work is ah that I see with people is once we've shed all of these things that we don't want anymore, what are the things that we want to add to that box that are honest, that are intentional, um that are a lot of work, but that are really worth it. um And I think that is the next stage when we're talking about specific suggestions is being really true to who you are and how you show up.
00:56:20
Speaker
um I see that when I'm working with men, they don't know how to be vulnerable. They don't know how to feel deeply. um Men are given oftentimes two settings, ah anger and lust, and anything outside of those, they're not given the tools in their toolbox to do that.
00:56:39
Speaker
um And so a lot of the work that I see happening is how to be caring, how to be sad, how to be afraid, how to step into this unknowing in a way that is risky. But also um you've got this huge possibility of reward in the depth of your relationships with other people. Yes, but also depth in relationship with self. um I find that people have two settings.
00:57:05
Speaker
They are, because they're going for perfection, they're risk avoidant, right? ah They don't want to take the risks because they can't guarantee that outcome, right? um And so they're going to go the safe way. um or it's the people that are going 100 miles an hour on their motorcycle with no helmet on a rainy night, right? Where they are not thinking about risk awareness, right?
Balancing Risks and Rewards
00:57:30
Speaker
um They are not thinking about fear. They are just go. And I think in both of those cases, um they're doing themselves a disservice and they're doing other people a disservice. Yeah. um Because they're not getting that depth. Sometimes with risk, we do get reward, but we want to make sure that we are aware of what those risks are. What you just described to me, what I heard is is that the intensity at the bottom of the pyramid, where you're starting now to a lot of those those previous steps is almost a painting the landscape, bringing things into awareness, starting to cultivate the skills. But the further we get in, the more we are moving towards a intensity
00:58:15
Speaker
that moves towards that kind of away from bad or good right or wrong but to a this is what is this is what's being revealed this is what's what what either in ah in in this context of the intensive therapy where there are specific blockers maybe deeply rooted that we say okay we've done we've cultivated the skills we've done all the we we know how to give permission but there's still something Mm-hmm.
00:58:40
Speaker
That is is deeper. Yeah. And that something that is deeper is not only blocking my connection to self, it's blocking the very thing that I want in connection to other people.
00:58:52
Speaker
But there is going to come a point where blindsiding happens, where these things aren't working to get to that next level. The formulas, again, they're not working anymore to get to that next level. Mm-hmm.
00:59:04
Speaker
and And what you just said is a lot of that has to do with our relationship to uncertainty and risk that says you've you've reached this level, but you want more. yep And in order to get that. Gotta take a risk. you You have to take the risk. Yep. There's no guarantee for what that's going to look like.
00:59:25
Speaker
There is not. And I think the big piece there in comparison with the people that are risk averse or the people that are all risk yes all the time is you just talked about kind of um doing some alignment, right?
00:59:39
Speaker
Of what I'm wanting is in alignment with the risk that I'm taking. And some people want that thing, but they're not willing to take the risk of losing it. And some people are taking risks with no awareness of but what the consequences could be, right? yes um And I think the big piece there is doing some internal alignment.
01:00:02
Speaker
But that internal alignment means that you have to potentially get uncomfy with yourself. And discomfort is something that people ah avoid. My people that are go, go, go, all risk, they're doing that because they don't know what it's like to sit in the unknowing. They don't know what it's like to sit in that gray area. um And my risk-averse perfectionists, I am myself a recovering, recovered, mostly perfectionist, is if I want that thing, I have to take the risk. I have to take that leap.
01:00:30
Speaker
I have to have a little bit of adrenaline. um And I think for both people, it is some people need to speed up a little bit take the risk. And some people need to slow down a little bit and actually feel that risk that they're taking.
01:00:42
Speaker
But either way, it's connection in conjunction with self. It's going back to that permission giving and that honesty with self. um And I think for me, a different way that I'm going to reframe the limited information is that sitting with receiving the information of what that risk could actually mean for yourself, your relationships to life. um It is that making sure that I'm not looking at all of the information because that may not be helpful in me deciding whether or not this is a risk that I want to take. um And then looking at do I have the tools and the skills and the support, the specific suggestions to be able to leap in and try the thing. And then that intensity is the outcome that we want and the out outcome outcome that could happen even if the outcome we want doesn't. It's the risk. Yeah. What's on the other side for those who say like that sounds like a lot of work.
Ongoing Personal and Relational Growth
01:01:31
Speaker
Uh-huh. Because we've just taken work that it takes place over time. We've just convinced it. It's super easy, right? Just step one, two, three, four. You're good. No. Yes. yes what What is what is the other on the other side for those that say, i want that, but I can't even get off of of go? Uh-huh.
01:01:53
Speaker
Where do we start? Connecting with people, I think, is ultimately um for people that are stuck on go and can't go. It's taking those little risks. um It is talking with people. It is journaling with yourself. It is connection. um I think that's the most basic place to start because without connection to self and without connection to other people, ah you're just spinning your wheels. If we're wanting intensity and all you're doing is surface, you got to start with some connection in there.
01:02:23
Speaker
um And so knowing that there's various kinds and knowing that there's various steps can help with people um is is to get them going. And for the people that are are just go go, go, we want them to stop and slow and take the risk of connection. um Because if you are all risk, no reward, you you're missing all those possibilities of reward. Yeah.
01:02:46
Speaker
yeah This is a theme that has continually come up. What you just said, um this is this is where i I mourn what has been lost in terms of the community for for for everyone, but in populations like men, that you know whether it's the loss of initiation rights and and And the ways that we cultivate those domains where someone says, i don't know how to do this. i don't And you just said the connection, the small step. Well, where do I go find the connection? Well, that's where individuals like myself and and others are saying, we we have to create those spaces. Absolutely.
01:03:25
Speaker
systemically we have increasingly pushed towards you can find that connection by picking up a book you can find that connection by making yourself a singular project that's constantly inf flight and and at the moment that you bump into somebody else that might be able to that that there's friction that comes about by that bumping into well that means i need to go actually work on myself on my own moving closer to perfection and then come back so that I don't bump it.
01:03:55
Speaker
It is the bumping into each other where connection happens. The other thing too that I see specifically with men is this idea that connection means sex.
Emotional Literacy and Education for Boys
01:04:07
Speaker
Intimacy means sex. We don't necessarily teach our men and boys about emotional empathy. Empathy is a learned skill and we don't teach it, right? Right.
01:04:19
Speaker
We don't teach emotional vulnerability. We don't teach emotional honesty. We don't teach emotional identification to our men and boys. um When we look at the data on how we talk to ah babies who are girls versus babies who are boys, we emote more when we talk to ah female infants.
01:04:42
Speaker
We express ourselves. We use emotional words. We use descriptive words with girls. we don't with boys and then we wonder why our men struggle with depth of emotion ah knowledge of emotional self being able to label and identify what it is they want to think and feel and experience because they don't have the knowledge and then we penalize them for not having it um And this steps a little bit into that unknowing, right? When we have those opportunities to learn, we haven't given the words or the tools or the resources to figure it out.
01:05:16
Speaker
When they have those opportunities to bump up against other people that can teach them that um they're not sure what to do with it. um I see a lot of confusing um affection for emotional depth, confusing sex for affection. um A lot of times in relationships, we'll see the, again, in cishet pairings, we will see the woman pursuing emotional intimacy and the man pursuing just sexual intimacy, and they're missing each other because their tool sets are different or their baseline needs to progress to the next level to get more depth. They're missing
01:05:51
Speaker
and And that a big part of what you're encouraging is a little bit more of interactive humility and with an appetite for being surprised. Learning.
01:06:02
Speaker
Part of learning to me is the surprise, right? um I work with all sorts of people that are in process and there are stages of development where we think we know it all because we need that bravery to jump in the deep end, to to venture into the unknown. But when we look at developmental models, as soon as we take that risk, we actually have this realization of, I don't know anything. Yes.
01:06:23
Speaker
yes That is also really, really important. And so one of the things that I teach my supervisees, that I teach my students, that I teach my clients, that I am constantly teaching myself is when I am in that moment of imposter syndrome, when I am in that moment of realizing how much I don't know, or they're in that moment of realizing how much they don't know, is to look around and see who might be willing to share. And it doesn't have to be somebody older, somebody more experienced.
01:06:51
Speaker
When we're talking about gaining wisdom from people, that wisdom can come from anywhere. And let's be creative about where we might find it and how we might apply it. um I joke with my students all the time about how creative humans are. um Yes, in terms of kink and sex, but also in terms of where we get our information. um And so when we are in that moment, of I don't know that this hammer I'm using is actually a wrench and somebody comes up and shows me how to use it as a wrench instead of going, no, I know
Creative Approaches to Learning and Growth
01:07:22
Speaker
what I'm doing. I want to sit in that moment of, oh, that's a really creative use for it. And also to potentially have them acknowledge, yeah I hadn't thought about using that as a hammer before. That's really cool. going to have to remember that.
01:07:32
Speaker
Yeah. Right. So there is this give and take this push and pull of information that may happen in ways that we didn't expect that if we are being rigid, we might miss those opportunities.
01:07:43
Speaker
If we are trying to stay in the I am always knowing and I know all we might miss it. Or if I'm just going Mach 10 because I am all adrenaline. Yes. I might also miss. Yeah. It is that slowing down, but also being open. Yeah.
01:07:58
Speaker
And I think that that is another specific suggestion that I leave people with is being open to possibility. It does not mean doing things you don't want to do, but it is that openness to opportunities, experiences, and information that if I am laser focused, I might miss that possibility for. um It is also one of my biggest complaints about the love languages is it puts people in boxes that is a disservice to that open-mindedness.
01:08:24
Speaker
If somebody is speaking a different language than you and you are dead set on yours being the one that's spoken, you're going to miss that opportunity to connect with them. yeah yeah And potentially finding that what you think your language is is not actually your language.
01:08:37
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. um What you just said, i think sounds to me like a a more a movement towards more of a mature, healthy way of showing up in the domain of intimacy, eroticism, and sexuality. And life. and life. That's right. like like like that's um That might be the next conversation that we we have if we have one is is just like how how much of of the compartmentalization that we do and that we're leaving so much on the table when we don't when we forget that everything that we do, even the activity of engaging in intimacy and and sex with each other is a picture of something broader and and has wisdom in it that that we can access
01:09:26
Speaker
unless we are hell-bent on keeping it compartmentalized, keeping it this over here, then there's this over here, then there's this over here. yeah And you're encouraging that openness. Absolutely. And I think there's a couple different things that popped up for me there is when we're talking about consent and permission and all of that is oftentimes,
01:09:45
Speaker
When we're talking about sex and intimacy, people have an image in their head of what it's supposed to look like b because they watched this one yeah a hem video that showed things being done in a certain way. Right. And so they're trying to replicate that. or they've heard stories from friends and this is what they think they're supposed to do. Instead of checking in with themselves and the desires they have and what feels good in their body, talking to their partner or partners about what they want to experience and what feels good in their bodies. and learning and building that consent castle together that is honoring both of them all of them the engineers in that situation um because this idea of what we're supposed to look like takes away creativity it takes away play it takes away the possibility because we're already trying to dictate what that finished product is
01:10:36
Speaker
instead of realizing where we want to go. And I think that's the pieces. A lot of times as adults, we don't have many opportunities for play and creativity. For those who are sexual creatures, that is a great possibility of play. Men get taught not to play. Men get taught not to explore. They are told that they have one possibility in terms of sex um and it's taking away a whole menu of options and opportunities um and when they get to actually step into what it is that they want what they could want there's a whole world of possibility there i talk a lot with my people about queering their sexual menu when we look at heterosexual folks and what they define as sex it's very narrow compared to when we talk to queer folks and what they consider sex
01:11:26
Speaker
um And a lot of times I will bring a queer sexual menu in to work with my straight folks and they're like, wait, that counts. Yeah, it counts.
Integrating Play into Adult Life
01:11:34
Speaker
um So how do we bring play into sex? How do we bring play into relationships? How do we bring play into life in general? I think is really fun because as adults, we're told we're not supposed to play anymore. it's Supposed to be all serious all the time. No, thank you. Mm hmm.
01:11:48
Speaker
um And I think that there's a lot of possibility there. But you have to be willing to take the risk of getting creative and it not going well. You have to be able to laugh at the fact that you fell off the bed, right?
01:12:00
Speaker
You have to be able to be okay with that risk that's there. And a risk of it is the other person or people saying no. And that's a big risk for a lot of folks. Yeah. What's the thing that I should have asked during this that I've been yeah negligent in not listening for that that you feel needs to to be added? When we're talking about all of these acronyms that i mentioned today, when we're talking about gendered stuff, I think it's really important to remember that, yes, we are all individuals, but we are moving through a system.
The Need for Systemic Change
01:12:31
Speaker
And oftentimes we are quick to pathologize or blame the individual when really truly what we are doing is having a conversation about systems. Mm-hmm. The pressure that men feel impacts them as an individual, but that pressure is coming from a system. And unless we learn to actually notice the system, challenge the system and push back on the system, these issues are going to continue to persist. And I work with ah a lot of military individuals, first responder individuals that are not just embedded in our societal system, but are in additional systems that put pressure on them. um And when they have started to unpack, they changed an individual, but they are now a very deeply unpacked individual in a system that is still dysfunctional for them. Expects them to be packed.
01:13:19
Speaker
Absolutely. So unless we start actually moving the system, it's going to continue to hurt and it might even hurt more. Yeah. um And I think that might be a big thing to consider is yes, acknowledging the big systems we all move through, but what are the smaller systems that you are choosing to participate in um that you don't have to anymore? Can you build new systems for yourself? Can you find new support networks that, you know,
01:13:43
Speaker
give you permission to feel deeply, that give you permission to not know. Can you cultivate mini systems that make space for you to be imperfect and make mistakes?
01:13:55
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
01:14:14
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
01:14:31
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.