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Goodpain Podcast Season 02, Episode No. 009: Cultural Seductions of Men & the Hooks of Addiction
167 Plays3 months ago
Jeremy & Tyler are back in the studio to how culturally rewarded patterns of thinking, feeling, and acting can function like addictions for men, keeping them trapped while believing they are powerful and "in control."
The cost? Over time, they diminish the man himself, shrinking his humanity, robbing his authentic relationships, mystery, interdependence, and the possibility of a larger, more truthful life.
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Transcript
Embracing Instability and Relinquishing Control
00:00:00
Speaker
It starts with embracing uncertainty. It starts with embracing some degree of instability. It starts with relinquishing control and power. You want to actually experience a sense of knowing on what true strength and courage looks like. That's where you start.
Introduction to Good Pain Podcast
00:00:16
Speaker
I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy solve. What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
00:00:29
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything in between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to limit the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it. Welcome to the conversation.
Culturally Rewarded Patterns as Addictions
00:00:58
Speaker
We're picking up our conversation between me and Jeremy this week as we continue to explore the definition and stories and conversations around mature and immature masculinity. This week we turned the spotlight onto a conversation around how there are culturally rewarded patterns of thinking, feeling, and acting that essentially function like addictions for immature men. and keep us trapped while feeling powerful and in control.
00:01:25
Speaker
These addictions offer seductive payoffs like certainty, superiority, emotional anesthesia, and social approval. But over time, they profane us, shrinking our humanity, empathy, and our moral imagination.
00:01:40
Speaker
Even more so, each of these dynamics that we end up discussing attacks something that Jeremy and I would consider to be sacred. It's our dignity, both our own and other people's authentic relationships, mystery, interdependence, and the possibility of a larger, more truthful life.
00:02:00
Speaker
Each of these dynamics that we're going to discuss offers a counterfeit freedom. It's false. They offer a apparent freedom to avoid vulnerability, to avoid uncertainty, to avoid reliance on each other and learning how to live together instead by clinging to control, superiority, or certainty.
00:02:22
Speaker
And over time, these habits form a closed system of meaning in which we as men believe we are lord of our own constructed reality, even as we become more rigid, more reactive, and more cut off from a deeper life.
00:02:40
Speaker
Instead, genuine maturity invites us to surrender these addictive structures, to reclaim our full humanity and relate to ourselves, to others and the world with humility, reverence and responsibility.
Addictive Behaviors and Bully Pulpits
00:03:00
Speaker
What we're trying to do is to have a conversation that says the the debate and zero sum and everything we're going to talk about today is really a picture of addictive behavior. but And what people want to focus on is is that, well, my addictive behavior is sanctioned because I hold the truth. yes I hold some version of knowledge that is more sacred.
00:03:26
Speaker
And they fail to understand is that, oh, no, that's sacred to you. And you want to just engage in a debate of arguing that my bully pulpit is better than your bully pulpit.
00:03:37
Speaker
And really what we're talking about is the problem is bully pulpits. That's that's what that's the problem. And and and you you struggle to give up the bully pulpit.
Misuse of Psychological Terms like Gaslighting
00:03:48
Speaker
I think this conversation with where we just started, okay i i think um I want to put some scaffolding around what not Without being too academic, I do think we need to be we need to honor ah some of the language we're going to use here and set it up for the purposes of this conversation. Okay. Because there is a risk here. Whenever we start using right now um psychology or therapy speak, I think...
00:04:19
Speaker
There is a dilution that happens to the important the ah to some of these terms where we we eventually start top talking about a topic and and it loses all meaning because because we just are describing one facet of our experience within life using a topic. And the example I would give for this is like gaslighting. right Gaslighting has a very specific definition for for it, and it's important to protect that definition because it defines a specific type of behavior that happens within relationships that we want to be able to identify
00:04:55
Speaker
One, so that we can ah make sure that the crazy making that goes on within those who experience gaslighting, that they actually get the relief of being seen and witnessed, that something is being going that that is something is being inflicted upon them that that is real So you don't want to be dismissive by using terms that would not honor the experience. But we live in a world that is over-psychologized. I'm going to say that axiomatically. I'm not going to defend that.
00:05:26
Speaker
Because the word gaslighting is used to describe a hell of a lot of behavior that is not actually gaslighting. And and the problem is is is that when we reach for some of these terms because they've and so entered the the popular lexicon, we are using them as a means oftentimes to avoid the difficulty of actually figuring out what's going on in a relationship. And instead, we oftentimes start using these terms as a means to shut down communication.
00:05:54
Speaker
Now that's hell of a word. I don't want to take away from the really great pontification that's happening here. You used my favorite word ever. What was that word? Lexicon. Oh my gosh. I don't know why. i just love it. I don't know why. So there's a pentameter dynamic to it as well. I mean, it just works on every level. All right. Now I've derailed everything. No, you're you're fine because the word that ah we're we're going to introduce here is
Broadening the Definition of Addiction
00:06:16
Speaker
addiction. yeah and And the word ah addiction, i think connotatively, we would all say the first thing that comes to mind is substance abuse.
00:06:25
Speaker
We have broadened the conversation around addiction to talk about behaviors like workaholism and addiction. But I want us to get to a point where what we're talking about when we say addiction is is that there are certain behaviors that we anchor to, certain dynamics that we say, i will use this and I will sanction this as a means for either bringing me closer to a authentic, real version of who I want to be or will take me farther away.
00:07:01
Speaker
And where there are certain behaviors that I am essentially saying i am outsourcing my autonomy and my agency to these behaviors or to theses these things. Activities, behaviors.
00:07:16
Speaker
As guarantors of some of my deepest yearnings and longings, the minute that I give up my autonomy and the minute I give up my agency and my choice in the matter and I just outsource my thinking to these behaviors, I would argue we're we're starting to to border on you have an addiction. Hmm.
00:07:39
Speaker
to this thing and the promises and the siren calls that it that ah that it offers, rather than looking at those things critically, you're trusting that it will deliver on its promises.
00:07:52
Speaker
So i just want to make sure I'm wrapping my head around it. So you're suggesting that we need to be very clear and forthcoming with what we're calling it by name, but also what does that mean? Because it's very easy to just throw a title out and then rest behind that. Like, yeah. Yeah.
00:08:11
Speaker
Drinking, whatever, else right? That's, that's my thing. Yep. That's my vice and i own it. i have a problem, but it's under control, whatever. Yes. But you're suggesting that there's more to it than just naming it, that there is a pattern of behavior that gets you to the place where you can't stop doing that thing.
00:08:27
Speaker
And we need more of it, or we feel like we need more of it. And then what does that do for us? It either has a benefits or a detriment to how we experience life.
Addictions and the Illusion of Freedom
00:08:36
Speaker
Yeah. Is that accurate? Yeah. it So a couple of things. What I would say, there are there are certain patterns of behavior that offer to us, a in the form of seduction, yeah certain guarantees. First, I think that we we evaluate addiction based first on the guarantees that are being offered by the substance,
00:09:01
Speaker
or the behavior and, and in the seductive payoffs within addiction, oftentimes is certainty, superiority, emotional anesthesia, and social approval.
00:09:13
Speaker
Yep. And what we're saying is, is that if you do these things, these will be guaranteed. And my God, wow if I could, yeah it is, it's terrifying, but it's also very understandable because what it's. And well proven.
00:09:27
Speaker
thats That's right. and and And one of the the reasons why it is is so understandable is because these are a form of counterfeit freedoms that are on offer.
00:09:38
Speaker
Counterfeit because going back to the things that we know about what we just said, life is hard. If there's something that is being offered to me that says life is not hard, sure it is a lie. yeah But if I continue to go after that,
00:09:55
Speaker
believing that that eventually life is going to not be hard the more I give up my autonomy and my agency to that thing and the promise that it has is is that keep trusting me yeah keep believing me just keep coming back to me keep coming back to the bottle keep coming back to the drug keep big coming back to this behavior this belief and eventually life will become easy that is That is foundationally built on a lie. It will never happen. And and so so one of the things is is that any kind of behavior that offers a freedom to avoid vulnerability, to avoid uncertainty, to avoid the interdependence between people, to avoid...
00:10:44
Speaker
um The idea that we're we don't control everything. yeah Any of those that we keep reaching for, believing that avoidance is possible, yeah I'm going to say that is probably a behavior, a belief, a dynamic that is likely operating on an addiction model.
00:11:08
Speaker
You've given this, this example in the past when we've talked about it, i think on, on this podcast, but were talking about the princess bride and life is hard. And it may be telling you something different as selling something like you just said all that. Rest in peace, Rob Reiner again. Again. Yes, absolutely.
00:11:24
Speaker
Um, But with that, I think that the avoidance of the discomfort is where I take issue with what we're talking about. right Because to say um i could navigate through this experience of life without any of the things you mentioned, um pain and discomfort would be the two biggest targets that I was assigned to this conversation. you're not doing yourself any favors. If you're if you're seeking if you're seeking some type of an escape, I think that that is fine in measure, but I think as a continuous practice, there's going to be much greater pain at the end of that road. I think what you're saying is the truth of the matter. I think the nature of the substance substance abuse has some root in convincing you that that discomfort is avoidable.
00:12:12
Speaker
yeah And all you have to do in order to reach comfortability, the way you will be rewarded is if you adopt the thinking, the beliefs, and the behavior that puts you on the path towards the comfortable life. Yeah.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah. And, and, and therefore what
Avoidance of Discomfort and Its Consequences
00:12:32
Speaker
it says is consume me, trust me sure and I will get you there. Yeah. And, and there's this inherent feedback loop that says, well, when things start getting hard, yeah it's because you haven't aligned close enough to the purity of consuming, believing, of, of trusting this thing. And so we get stuck in this, well, it's, it's, it's hard right now, but over the next hill, over this horizon, then it will get easy. yeah And that's why I think it's important to, to be clear on what is the carrot? What is what is the seduction yeah model? Yeah, man. And towards the substance itself, because the the seduction is not to the um to to the behavior, to the substance. Yeah. It's to the promise oh that the substance is delivering, like escape. Sure. Like that that being one of the biggest ones is is that it's not so much that I am addicted to the substance. And I want to...
00:13:39
Speaker
I want to distinguish between that because there is biological mechanisms that do drive addiction. Sure. But even within there, when we start talking about some of things like withdrawal, like withdrawal being this condensed version of your body's dependence on a substance that, Actually saying like, i i need that now. I adapted to that. sure And saying that that that is a picture of what's the seduction in that?
00:14:07
Speaker
Just take it again. right and you and can escape the discomfort of the withdrawal itself. Yeah, it's a fairly immediate feedback as well. Once you, e in that kind of ah circular thinking that, oh, I just need a little bit more, take a little bit more, whatever, whatever the thing is. Yes. And then, oh yeah, that discomfort goes away pretty quickly. I feel so much better.
00:14:31
Speaker
And we should also say it's human nature to want to avoid that sense and I thought that's where you're going to go with seduction as another countermeasure is that yeah nobody leans into the thing that is really painful it's something that we have to deal with and it's so hard to take it head on and so this is where we're talking about today where we get into these things what What you, i mean, yeah, the line the line in The Princess Bride is one that I have adapted more and more because of that word pain. You know life is pain. Anybody who tells you differently is selling something.
00:15:06
Speaker
I have taken that word pain because we get into this circle, like what what you just said in terms of it's human nature to say pain equals bad. Yeah, sure. And and we we have...
00:15:18
Speaker
culturally rewarded patterns of thinking that anchors to anything that feels uncomfortable equals pain equals bad. yeah And we we have this very narrow syllogism that says that if, if you, if you're feeling big feelings that you don't like, then that must be something that it makes sense to try and avoid that. Absolutely. I increasingly get to to the point where it's life is intense, life is hard. And and I reach for those words because it's it's not as easy to dismiss those as bad. Intensity, challenge, growth. Yeah. Like all of these things not- would another word. Yeah. They're not comfortable. Right. Right.
00:16:05
Speaker
But we don't have this knee-jerk reaction that says, oh, challenge or change. Well, that feels tough or that's that's uncomfortable. Therefore, it must be bad. We at the very least are like, no, no, no. no that's That's not. And this is going back to we talking about with with kids. Hmm. This is where the nature of innocence, where we actually have started to embed or at least carve off this population that says what we need to do is to make sure that that life isn't hard for them. And we're, I think a lot of us without getting into this generational bullshit, conflicts that says that, you know, that younger generations are snowflakes or soft or those, you Well, I mean, we could debate on why that's the case. Part of that, I would argue, is our addiction to comfort, to convenience. 100%. That we have embedded even to how we lead. Yeah, yeah. That's right. And this is where transitioning then to what are the dynamics that from a hypothesis or or ah from from a premise that I would say for men is is that we have culturally rewarded patterns of thinking, feeling, and acting for men that we have sanctioned is okay, that is actually driving deep, immature behavior. Mm-hmm.
00:17:30
Speaker
And the mechanism that we have erected around these behaviors is addiction.
Immature Masculinity and Addiction to Power
00:17:39
Speaker
We have dangled a carrot in front of men that says, coming to to grips with the the truth that you are not to the center of the universe, that's hard. Well, what if we told you that you don't have to confront that truth? Instead, you can start doing things and we will reward you if you believe and become addicted to the opposite belief is is that you are the center of the universe.
00:18:10
Speaker
that that you That your job is to build a world that a ra revolves around you as the center. And as long as you make the rest of us rich, safe, secure, yeah then then you will never have to confront the fact that you were never the center of the universe. I'm having some really strong imagery about Wolf of Wall Street. Absolutely. Tell me more.
00:18:40
Speaker
email So, Jordan, the, belfour thank you. Um, i think he started off in, a storyline goes, he started off in a context where he wanted to join into that ecosystem. Right. Mm-hmm. There are people that have been wildly successful, quote unquote, right? Whatever that meant to him.
00:18:59
Speaker
And he started off as a fairly humble guy who was motivated, whatever. And then he by mechanisms of advancements and achievements in that system, he was brought to a lunch with ah Matthew McConaughey's character. There it is That's it. Perfect. That was not the clip from the movie for the listening audience. That was actually Tyler crushing it.
00:19:23
Speaker
um And nobody else could have played that role, by the way. Matthew just yeah was amazing. But it's just like, oh, huh, what? Those are the things that you do to operate on a daily basis?
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's that type of thinking that I am the center of the universe that would allow that type of thing to behavior or that behavior to continue. And and then you just bought into it. And then we saw the debauchery and all of the stuff that so we see after the fact. And um it was an amazing journey from an outsider for view you to think, how is any of that possible? that question you just asked, how is any of that possible?
00:19:59
Speaker
Because that form of, of belief is sanctioned by an entire system. Yeah. And, and, and using that as the example, i mean there's there's, there's a handful of pieces here. it is,
00:20:14
Speaker
The world of of Wall Street is one of the most simple and straightforward. Now, now that is not what what Wall Street wants you to believe. sure and and And we would even say, looking back at the 2007, 2008 financial crisis, after Wall Street had driven the the plane into the mountain, yeah they they wanted everyone to believe that the complexity that had been built up around that was, was so convoluted that everything was so, yeah so messy that the only people that could navigate out of that. The trained experts. Was the people who had built up that complexity. But the truth of the matter is, is is that when you start talking about a market economy, you
00:20:59
Speaker
yeah It's very difficult to escape. I'll reference another movie, ah Family Man with Nicolas Cage. yeah, yeah, yeah When he's trying to distinguish himself and what he's good at. Right. He actually, he he talks about the nature of business and and why business is business. Hmm. It's about relationships.
00:21:22
Speaker
It's about buyers and sellers. It's about mitigating risk. And there are some tools that do that and do that within ethic. It's pretty simple and straightforward. So what drives the complexity? What drives this convolution of something that when you talk about a market, about being bringing people together that have money and want to invest, yeah And those who have products with their own customers that need to have access to money to deliver those.
00:21:52
Speaker
A market is not a complex dynamic. It's pretty simple. But but what we want to what we want to reduce is is that instead of instead of the market and anchoring to the simplicity and confronting our egos and how it gets in the way of that, When I look at a market and I objectify that market as this is an opportunity for me to extract value for myself and myself alone, well, how could I do that? And how could I do that in in a very expedient way?
00:22:24
Speaker
Well, how about I create vehicles for doing that? How about I create derivatives? How about I create options? How about I create these pieces?
00:22:36
Speaker
And in the in the naming of what they're doing to help de-risk the market, to address the fears of those who might be in the market, who are investors, and saying, hey, I understand that you have invested x number of dollars here.
00:22:51
Speaker
What if I could, right now, there's a 10% chance that you could lose all of it. Well, why don't you let me sell you this insurance that, and and and so you're going to take a lower, a smaller return, but by me selling you this insurance, you're, you're, you're paying me for that.
00:23:10
Speaker
For your safety. For your safety. And I, and I'm degrading. All of that sounds like, oh, I want safety. Sure. But what if I start doing things that, what if I start convincing you to take positions in certain investments and I start hiding what how risky they actually are? What if I start selling you an insurance, but I actually don't have, when we sell insurance, we have to back that up that what if the event for which I'm being assured against actually happens? I have to have faith
00:23:43
Speaker
that you're actually going to be able to make me whole again. Yeah. To to deliver on what it is that you sold me. That's pretty simple. that's That's not hard. Okay.
00:23:53
Speaker
What happens with the complexity is we have individuals that interject their own egocentrism. I want to make money here and I want to make money at a higher rate than what I actually need to do in order to deliver on the promises I have made to the market. Mm-hmm.
00:24:12
Speaker
And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to take the money that you paid me and I'm going to go sell that to 10 other people. And now I've got money from those people, but I've got exposure that is 10 times or 11 times, whatever the number is, an order of magnitude bigger. Yeah.
00:24:30
Speaker
And what if I've taken that thing, that insurance, it's the equivalent of taking this house and saying, coming to me, selling that to me and then going and finding. Now, that's getting too complicated. i I don't I've derailed the conversation a bit.
Wolf of Wall Street: Metaphor for Power Addiction
00:24:45
Speaker
No, no, I think.
00:24:47
Speaker
I've derailed the conversation. You did no such thing. I'm going to absolve you of that right now. That's very generous. the the the the wolf The wolf of Wall Street was brought up because there are people that get addicted to that kind of control, power, and context of thought that, oh, listen, the sun rises and sets because of what I do. And I think there's an addiction with that. that that's That's right. And and and what I'm, the the interesting thing is, is that I would say, this is this is where I would distinguish that the seduction, the seduction there is is that the sun rises with what I do. And therefore, I should be i should be compensated. I should i should get money to X number.
00:25:30
Speaker
Or recognition. That's right. But the addiction to it itself is the the the addiction is to this belief yeah that I deserve that. It's that, that, that, that I, whatever I want, whatever I lay my eyes on, I deserve that.
00:25:51
Speaker
I, I just, and I think this gets, i mean, whether it's, it's Wolf of Wall Street or Wall Street itself with Gordon Gekko and that character, that greed is good, that we're requalifying these things as we have built up going back to, we reward patterns of thinking and what we're the pattern of thinking that we are rewarding in this around your egocentrism and what you just described is is that that that you just keep thinking that way without regard for the collateral damage, without regard for the knock-on effects for that. And so whatever risks you take, as long as you have convinced yourself and the world that has been built has convinced you that this kind of greed, selfish motive, without regard for for what impact it has on others, yeah well, that's sanctioned. But I think it's also coming back to what we started talking about is incredibly immature. And that immaturity is the part that I think is, pardon me, the immaturity is the part that I think is without allowed to have reservation about with. It just continues to unfold and develop into this bigger thing.
00:27:08
Speaker
And good luck reining that in. what what That's like any addiction. yeah The early stages of the the of of the addiction cycle where you believe that you're in control,
00:27:20
Speaker
is is is the that is the acculturation or inculturation phase where you are increasingly getting... it does have some early wins. Like you you you take a the first time that you consume a substance and you experience that sense of freedom or a taste of it. Yeah. ah I mean, this is why we talk about and and and inherently have different schedules of drugs and why heroin.
00:27:50
Speaker
is considered to be a Schedule 1 drug is is that when you get that taste, it is highly addictive because the experience of what it feels like to have a sense of freedom or expansiveness or...
00:28:05
Speaker
I'm also thinking gambling as well. Gambling. Because you get a couple of early wins. Let's say you're playing blackjack or whatever. i'm like oh, this is easy. I'm up 300 bucks, whatever. Yes. And then that continues to escalate until all of that giant stack of chips goes away. Yeah. Like what just happened? I mean, that addiction needs to come back. if That adrenaline is something that leaves in a hurry and creates a vacuum in your soul. Yeah. That is so powerful. Like, like if, if i go on an interview and I have a degree of confidence that's based on the belief that I am the center of the universe and I'm sitting across from somebody and I'm, based, mean, that confidence is dripping. Yeah. Right. Right.
00:28:48
Speaker
appable I start getting praise. Oh, interesting. I get, I start seeing success measured by being rewarded for that confidence. This is, this is what we taught. I mean, this is the complaint, a reasonable complaint that a number of women or minorities have about the automatic, um, the automatic, what's the word that I'm looking for? it's it is, it is the, what is ascribed? Mm-hmm. to a white man who shows up confident even if he is anchoring to that maximum of fake it till you make it. Sure.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yep. He is rewarded with more responsibility, with more money, with regardless of of his performance, regardless of whether he's competent, regardless of whether there are others who are more competent.
00:29:42
Speaker
We're talking about persona at that point. We how he presents we do. And there is in addiction that we have as men oftentimes to to that sense of learned confidence yeah that lacks substance. Oh.
00:29:58
Speaker
and and And there are definitely examples where substance and confidence both link together. Tiffany and I have watched this watch this girl who who has ah a channel where she's documenting and and is pretty vulnerable with talking about her her journey through therapy. um One of the things that she does, and and she she released a video a while ago, one that caught fire because she had been with female therapists for a long time. And she premised the fact that where she was lacking was confidence. She was she's struggling with imposter syndrome. Oh, wow. So she said, how do i find someone that just has this unvarnished confidence? Yeah.
00:30:40
Speaker
I need to talk to a man. That's an amazing statement. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. And she found a male therapist and she does a great job of actually showing how this is. He does. She says she has one line where she says to her therapist, I i don't know if you're a asshole or. or whether you're just really confident yeah and and legitimately confident yeah his response was maybe it's a little bit of both and awesome and she and there's so many ways that could have been that's right that's right he he actually sounds like he's doing a good job he actually is doing the work to evaluate these things for himself and to
00:31:21
Speaker
It's not that the confidence is is the source of of the of the addiction, what we're addicted to. yeah What we're addicted to is taking that belief that um I should be the center of my universe. Right.
00:31:36
Speaker
And that that the admiration and that comes along with it, the the the ascribing certain characteristics that are unearned. yeah we We have said that the narcissism itself of of sitting across from someone and just being confident and projecting yeah is sufficient to get the reward.
00:32:02
Speaker
And so rather than yeah anchor to the meritocracy or anchor, we reward who can be the most narcissistic. that terrifies me more than anything else because I think that in my life I've seen many people who as an untrained amateur i would identify them as being narcissists like oh oh okay you're able to succeed in this role I see because you don't see it any other the way in your mind has a skewed proficiency
00:32:34
Speaker
a skewed perspective of what reality is. Yeah. You're always going to win. it's like, yeah, that doesn't, that's not how the world works. That's not how my life has operated, yeah but you're able to do it. And I think people are drawn to that. That confidence is something that is super attractive and people are drawn to. Yeah.
00:32:52
Speaker
And it's dangerous. I think that's where for for us, I think it's, we could go through and and and say, you know, the the five addictions that that i I feel that that keeps us as men in a state of immaturity.
Winning: Wealth, Status, and Power for Men
00:33:07
Speaker
yeah We've named two of them. And and i i my ego is the center of the universe. That's the first part, believing that and being addicted to that. The second one is is that I should be the center of the universe. Interesting. The the next one is that that within this universe, it's always about winning. Winning and at any cost, at all costs, I have a conviction that life is only about winning and losing and that the measures that I have for that are wealth, status, and power. If I am not winning, what am I? I am nothing. or You're a loser. that I am a loser. Yeah.
00:33:47
Speaker
and And the problem with that, particularly within the field of of i think a previous episode, actually the one I think that we dropped this week, ah the conversation that we had with a gentleman named Deremiah, we talked about about this as that the culture of of athletics, where you have a very defined field and very specific rules on what winning looks like and what losing looks like, is...
00:34:11
Speaker
In that confined realm, when that that discent when those walls disintegrate and you start bringing that same mentality into the workplace and you create this scoreboard that says it's only these things that that matter. Sure.
00:34:26
Speaker
All of these other things, social cohesion, sure service, yeah compassion, empathy, things that give us a much more robust view about what it means to think not just in the here and now, but more longitudinally, long-term legacy even. okay well Well, what if i can't what if my what what if i was going to define my winning by something that extended beyond the horizon of my own time here? How do I determine whether I win or not? How do I determine whether whether I'm actually doing the right things?
00:35:01
Speaker
And so what what we do is we say, well, actually we don't, yeah, we understand that's hard. So so go ahead and think just within the next quarter, within the next week sure of what the what the here and now is, of what you, do you feel like you're winning right now?
00:35:15
Speaker
And we reward that behavior. We reward that short-term thinking and and and allow and sanction behavior that says, as long as I'm on the field, off the field, and I've taken mine, I've extracted my value for myself, for me, mine, and ours. Well, while whoever's left carrying the bag afterwards, that doesn't hit my scoreboard.
00:35:39
Speaker
Doesn't affect me. and And I think that's, you start marrying up. I'm the center of the universe. I should be, and I deserve to be the center of the universe. My definition of whether I'm winning or not is all that matters. And I'm the one that's positioned to determine what is best for me. My definition of winning, that should be your definition of winning as well. So if you have other means of measuring what it means to be successful,
00:36:06
Speaker
Well, if I want to check those. Yeah. and and And do you have the power? Do you have the wealth? Do you have the status? Because I do. and And because I'm the one who knows best, daddy knows best yeah here. Yeah.
00:36:21
Speaker
I'm going to dictate to you that you should be the one that adopts my definition of winning. And and and all of a sudden we've created this this cycle of an individual who increasingly has the power, who increasingly has the incentives, who increasingly has the status, who now has the beliefs and has the sanctioning from the culture in which he resides to be the dictator. Hmm. To be the autocrat. And we say, yes, this is sanctioned behavior. We we endorse this. We who? Who's endorsing this?
00:36:58
Speaker
and And I think that's that's that picture for me of we we have allowed this type of immature thinking, these addictions to this type of thinking and the behaviors that are associated with it to create this naive sense of wisdom.
00:37:17
Speaker
Hmm. And I think it's a wisdom that's maybe naive because it's not, it goes unchecked. Yes. Nobody is calling out that. Yeah. That was kind of a messed up thing because the threat of what position does that push you then into, yeah within that relationship or the context of professional environment or whatever. Right.
00:37:35
Speaker
And so it's, it's really scary that way to have somebody that can navigate through the worlds without ever being called out.
Power Dynamics and Loss of Autonomy
00:37:43
Speaker
what What you just described, I think that over time, yeah early on, like anything where we allow these things in, we we allow these things to intermingle with a degree of at ah at a point in time where maybe there was some more wisdom present. Maybe there was some more well-balanced individuals. but Yeah. As we create the incentives over time, these habits form a closed system of meaning in which a man believes he is Lord of his constructed reality. Yeah.
00:38:15
Speaker
and And he becomes more rigid, reactive. Sure. And cut off from from the deeper life. And what what what we mean... it It's yes. When you, when you are drinking alcohol and you have now access to what the ability to kind of escape for a while and to, to maybe feel like experience some fun for a while, when you become dependent on that in order to experience that yeah you actually avoid the hard work. Yeah.
00:38:48
Speaker
the intensity that's required to go inward and realize why do i need what is it that is keeping me beholden to this thing right it's no longer the escape it's it's not warm it's not and that's where with me with with like my coaching clients and and talking to them i understand the degree of this closed system that's continually being been reinforced around them yeah they're coming and they're saying I feel like the the phrase that has been used over and over and over with people is I feel like my soul is being crushed. Wow.
00:39:26
Speaker
I lost sight of myself and I can't even pinpoint where it was. Well, of course you can't. Yeah. Like it's, you can't pinpoint to the moment when you started taking the, the substance yeah because you you, you actually might be collaborating with it in a, in a way.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah. Right. There's some point where it turns where the substance has done its job to, or, or the behavior has done its job. The egocentrism, the narcissism has done its job to convince you that if you aren't this way, then everything is at risk. Right. And when you, when your everything is defined by three things, power, wealth, and status, and, and you say like, yeah, but those are the My soul is being crushed because I've reduced myself to power, wealth, and status. yeah And I feel like there's more depth to me. Well, you're not ever going to get to that depth by using the same mechanisms, the closed system that keeps you addicted to that got you up these things. yeah I have three thoughts based on what you just said. yeah um Number one is I'm not worried about the clients that come to you in full recognition, like something is off in whatever form that takes.
00:40:40
Speaker
Who concerns me are the people that are navigating through the world and don't have that level of introspection or sensitivity to the fact that I'm not myself anymore. It also reminds me of a great scene in the movie The Raidmaker with ah Matt Damon. Matt Damon. Yeah. And he said to Jon Voight's character, yeah do you even remember when you sold out? Like, that was the best line ever. Yeah. it know It was so great. um But I think it also goes into question what you're saying about there is a point where you recognize that
00:41:11
Speaker
Or maybe it's not recognized. There's a point in everybody's life where you turn a corner. And I think that is huge. And then my last point, yeah while you look up your great research that's going to bring us home, yeah is ah just thinking about the little boy in the movie, The Twilight Zone, which is a very old movie at this point. But you saw The Twilight Zone, the movie? Oh, yeah. Okay.
00:41:31
Speaker
It was a loaded question. I knew you didn't. So... ah There is a scene where the school teacher was out on a road trip and then there's this little boy at the convenience store. They befriend each other. He said, I need a ride home. Anyway, there's a scene where um everybody is on eggshells in the house where this little boy lives and he desperately wanted to have some type of normal, but everybody was, hey,
00:41:54
Speaker
is this okay for the meal? And they're waiting for him to say yes or no in the hopes that they don't get reprimanded or whatever. But like one of the scariest scenes of any movie I've ever seen in my life was when the school teacher needed the bathroom and then there was, I assume, a sister watching TV and then the beautiful um a panning work of the ah the camera going to this sister who has no longer lips because she spoke out too much against this woman It being child, uh, that was terrifying and it shook me into the core, uh, when I saw it. But I think the point of this is that if it's left unchecked, this is exactly what you get is that type of behavior yeah from, ah this model is a little boy, but it all comes from somewhere. Somebody is always going to seek the three things that you mentioned.
00:42:42
Speaker
It's, it's the power I think is the bigger draw for a lot of people. Um, but I think, yeah, If they recognize that, they want to keep going towards whatever is feeding that. What was terrifying about that?
00:42:55
Speaker
It was yeah so scary because it was so nor out of the norm. And just, I've never seen anybody with no lips. well Was that not terrifying to you? Am I insane? No, no, no, no, no. That's that's not the nature of my question. And also the music was primed very beautifully to do the... i mean so so i hear the the mise en scene of of this music the the visual imagery the what about someone having no lips is terrifying oh okay i see you're going so ah it was an imposition by somebody else i think was the part that really got to me and it was the fact that she assumed I wasn't born that way because how are you gonna get sustenance and what? But it started to paint a picture that there's something very, very, very not right in that environment. yeah
00:43:41
Speaker
And the fact that it came out later that it came from this little boy who has some powers that shouldn't he shouldn't have. And this is how he enacted that power. That was all terrifying and it hit me without being able to articulate or recognize all those things in the moment. It's like, oh, that's not right.
00:43:59
Speaker
Something is off. what am I getting myself into with this movie? Yeah. What I hear you. I mean, it is what is the experience of being powerless?
Defining Autonomy and Agency
00:44:09
Speaker
Hmm.
00:44:10
Speaker
And specifically powerless meaning that whatever, i keep using these two words, autonomy and agency. Yeah. Autonomy being, yeah and these are going to be my working definitions. Autonomy being I, as an autonomous individual, I have an inherent belief that I am self-directed. My the my choices, yeah ah I get to make choices. I can control my fate that sense. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Agency.
00:44:40
Speaker
i distinguish between autonomy and agency. lot Not just me. Lots of people do. but But for me, my definition then of agency is do I have the capabilities to make choices that are aligned to to how I've decided to direct my life? Yeah. Even if those are in conflict with some version of, of myself that I want to be right. Like, like I can say that I want to be a great leader.
00:45:12
Speaker
i can make choices that take me ah closer towards that or farther away from that. sure But my autonomy says i have the right to make those choices. Yeah. And actively pursue it That's right. Yeah. That's right. i may not I may not make the choices that actually put me on that path, but at the very least, I have the right to make the choices.
00:45:32
Speaker
And the question then on the agency is, do I have the ability, the capabilities to make those? And and and most of what we spend our time doing is over time is increasingly be getting better at making choices that align yeah to what we believe we want to be.
00:45:53
Speaker
And, and, and that's without being too reductionist. um Well, what I hear you say, powerlessness is this picture of what if there's someone out there that has the ability yeah to remove my, my first to to limit my capabilities for participating in making choices. Sure.
00:46:15
Speaker
or to imprison me right so that I cannot lead a self-directed life. Yeah. There's a ah lot of control in that conversation or imposition power. i I agree with, I think what we're, what what I'm going to argue about immature masculine is everything we just said in terms of narcissism, in terms of of egocentrism, the closed system that's created is a sanctioning of leaders who,
00:46:44
Speaker
who adopt this closed system yeah are allowed to remove the autonomy and the agency of the people that do not have the power.
00:46:55
Speaker
Our nature of winning and losing oftentimes in this is I get to dictate to you because i have created a system that says i am the winner. I know what's best. Yeah.
00:47:08
Speaker
And everything that I feel, everything that I experience, everything that's about me is sufficient to grant me the me the autonomy and agency to remove your autonomy and agency. Yeah, yeah.
00:47:24
Speaker
And I think we're getting at the nature of why we qualify this as immature is, is that there is a tremendous around there. There's an unlimited amount of hubris and foolishness that is based on anybody who believes they are capable of making those decisions.
00:47:43
Speaker
for anyone else everyone else yeah and that's why we call this out as immaturity is it is factually incorrect and history bears it over and over and over again i'd have to say that again because i just heard history bears it over and over and over again i'm getting too loud you did great i did i'm getting you very excited yes and there is no escape from this it takes It takes an incredible cutting off at the knees of that
Interventions and Breaking the Cycle of Addiction
00:48:14
Speaker
ego. And I think that is something that becomes too powerful and so difficult to do. What do we do in addiction? When somebody has lost the ability to see this, to see the collateral damage, to see the terror, to see the destruction that they are wielding under this closed system, we cannot convince them When you are trapped in the reason we called it a we ah call it a closed system yeah and why addiction is so dangerous is because it when you are in the closed system, it is a closed system because it has built a wall around you in such a way that there is no escape from the system itself.
00:48:55
Speaker
Everything that we experience when we are when we are in a closed system, everything is built to keep us in the system, including our form of naive wisdom that says, well, if I stop doing this, how are my kids going to eat? how were but How am I going to survive? Sure.
00:49:18
Speaker
Well, as long as you are beholden to the system, which is what the system wants, there has to be something that intervenes. We have to stage an intervention yeah that says you are not capable of even seeing the way out of this. This makes a huge leap, though, that we have to clarify. The only reason that an intervention will ever happen is if you have not totally isolated the people that care enough about you to say, hey, this is not going in a good direction.
00:49:50
Speaker
This is not no longer healthy. And we want you to change. If you don't have those people in your life, then yeah great. Here you go. Just just just going to be a field or or a ah a path of of carnage of the bodies and the the relationships that you've left behind. They're just like, yeah, that's his problem now. I think what you just, so so now we're at the stage where we're talking about the nature of how do you enter, what what are the forms of intervention? So we talk about staging and intervention. We often talk about similar, what you said is is like as long as you have that circle of individuals that one care enough about you yeah to recognize what the costs are going to be to them. to to actually intervene and take on the risk of of two things.
00:50:39
Speaker
One, that recognizing when to intervene is really challenging. It's delicate, isn't it? It's because we all recognize that to some degree, we we are subject to some form of addiction-like behavior. We have different types of tolerances for for for what the nature of what we're addicted to. And so when we start talking about substance abuse, we have culturally identified that the the costs of this, the collateral damage that comes with this is so clear. It's so in your face that we have sanctioned that this equals bad. We we don't have interventions for workaholism.
00:51:22
Speaker
but that that we We treat that with with kid gloves. It's seen as a healthy addiction. That's right. right it It is. it's It's partially because of the closed system we just talked about because it's driving the things that we say. well Potentially other people are benefiting from your efforts. yeah I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, you're you're fine. It's so So in the absence of of that clear delineation for where we can sanction an intervention, where people actually step in and say, you are by giving up your autonomy and agency to this substance, you are incapable of wielding.
00:52:00
Speaker
we We don't trust that you are acting autonomously. You are you are acting. you are a There is a puppet master. Mm-hmm. that is is making you do things that we know is in conflict with your true self, with your, with your when people say, you know, my soul is being crushed, they're they're saying like, i i am doing things that is in violation of what I believe I would really choose if I could extract myself out of the closed system. I'm so glad you brought this up because I was curious about what the second comment with your clients has been surrounding this, because to say that I feel that something's off and they use the word soul. And I think that's very insightful as well. it' just like, yeah, this doesn't feel right. That's one thing. But yeah when you bring in your soul into a conversation as being challenged or distanced,
00:52:51
Speaker
I think that is a real sign of, it's a call for help, right? It's like, what what is going on? This is not me. So based on that, are you able to share or generalize things that you've experienced that would be insightful or helpful as far as where people usually tend to turn the corner? there There's, there's, so, so I think this is the, the forms of intervention, right? Like, yeah so, so what, so there's one is, is that there's outside forces that recognize it before you do, and they, they stage the intervention and what they're doing is trying to break the closed system and, and get to a point where you can, you can breathe enough outside of the closed system to see the closed system one for what it is and and how it it itself perpetuates.
00:53:33
Speaker
as well as to open up the possibilities for other avenues. in In immature masculinity, in ah an entire system, an entire culture that is set up as a closed system to keep reinforcing this behavior, and then I recognize I'm in the system, and I i don'tve i have ah lost a sense of self within this. My soul is being crushed. Yeah.
00:53:55
Speaker
And then you reach out for a coach or or someone. who This is me in the ah the student exhibition, by the way. Just put that out I feel like my soul is being crushed. Yes. um when When you recognize that and reach out, you're're kind of you're staging your own form of intervention. And and and there are different practices that I will bring about. One of the first questions I'll ask is,
00:54:16
Speaker
how do you actually run into the, the, your soul again? And for the most part, most of them say like, I i don't have time for that. and And part of the questions I ask for that is what hobbies do you have? What practices do you, and most of them by and large, the answer is none.
00:54:33
Speaker
Some of them are very performative hobbies. It's, it's because they went to some retreat and read that I should be doing this and they built that in. And and it's, it's more of just like a project orientation check in the boxes. Yeah, it's it's it's really about improving the productivity or the resilience within the closed system itself and prolonging, like so suspending the collateral damage, but you're still beholden to the closed system. Because you believe you're making progress. That's right. That's right right. direction. I want to talk about the intervention that I see that is the most common, that is the most powerful, and that is the natural consequences.
00:55:09
Speaker
yeah when you you either When you recognize that your soul is being crushed and you it is a cry for help, you are either at a point where you can muster the willpower, the discipline, the surrender yeah to something that will pierce the veil of the closed system. I think that's the, the, the inherent truth is, is that it will be pierced.
00:55:32
Speaker
The mechanism that is going to be used for breaking down the closed system can either be hard and intentional and voluntary, or it can be intense, yeah um, deeply unsettling and involuntary, but you don't get the choice. Hmm.
00:55:53
Speaker
And I think that's what I hear with a lot of men is is that they're at a point where they recognize this is not sustainable. um i I have not done, this is this is me thinking out loud, but we know that the rate of of suicide among men it makes the rate among women pale in comparison. Now that has been, you know, the rate of, of, of suicide amongst women populations has been growing at a faster clip than, than what has been with men. But that's because the denominator with women was so much lower than what it was with men in it from a nominal perspective, the sheer number of suicides, it still is dramatically owned by a majority male population. Yeah.
00:56:43
Speaker
And i and i would I would speculate that a lot of that has to do with feeling these things, understanding i am I am not acting as an agent of my own autonomous existence. I am getting further and further away from who i know myself to be.
00:57:04
Speaker
Even I am reflecting on who I was when I was seven, eight, nine years old, when I still had access to what it meant to explore, to imagine possibilities, I remember what that was. have no idea how to reconnect to that. All I is a pawn of this closed system. That I've had a hand in creating. not more.
00:57:34
Speaker
I, you know, we were talking about this question of what is enough yeah of that. I, that the promise of the system is if you are feeling your soul being crushed, the answer is more, more egocentrism, more narcissism, more winning, more dar consolidating of power, more dulling of the pain.
00:57:57
Speaker
To get you to the place where that's right it's just avoidance. And when you get to, a at a certain point, you so you stop believing the siren call of what of of the promises. The seduction doesn't work anymore. You don't know how to escape it. There is only one escape.
00:58:13
Speaker
Wow. Wow. I mean, what you're describing is everything. It's all the um the playlist of how addiction works. And at the beginning, I wasn't sure where you're going to go with this format, but it makes perfect sense now, is that it is so easy to fall into this structure and navigating through it. It takes a lot to find your way out, though.
00:58:37
Speaker
And the interventions you're describing are very interesting. And I think that they're valid. The one that is terrifying is that there's not the ultimate sacrifice here. There's not just that. There are other ways, but oh my gosh, the number of people that probably feel that and feel that pressure every day is so sad. what you and it's not dismissive. i no no i'm saying that it's very valid. It's just, oh my gosh. Going back to the natural consequences of this is that because you alluded to to it, this is that we talked about our preference for an intervention where we are surrounded by people that we love. We're surrounded by people that can see it and care enough about us and have the wisdom to be able to hold space for that, to endure it themselves and what what is required for that. And so much of this behavior here, i think this is the nefarious part of distinguishing between substance abuse that sanctions
00:59:30
Speaker
people stepping up. It almost provides the air cover for people being able to go in and stage a, an intervention in a room where you spring it on someone and you're able to intervene. We don't have those mechanisms on this closed system behavior because it is our culture. And so we can see it and we can see it happening with men and we can see it happening where, where you are losing yourself. And not only are you losing yourself, but we can't even do the type of intervention. Right. where loved ones actually surround you because they're all gone. that you You drove them away. sure They don't exist anymore. You are you are increasingly isolated.
01:00:09
Speaker
Now we can trace this back to a couple of things is is that my autonomy and agency was employed at some point for making the decision to start moving down this path. I may not have known the consequences. I may not have known what was going on yeah or where it was going to lead me or what the costs were going to be.
01:00:29
Speaker
But you had to work very hard to develop both of those items. That's right. That's right. And so, so we, we buy it I mean, similar to what we were saying is we buy into the siren call and the, and the offers and and we, we fall prey to the seduction of it early on. And then we slowly over time find ourselves increasingly isolated, isolated, isolated. what we what what In order to rescue ourselves, we also have a choice whether we are going to continue to doubling down to doubling down on this promise of more yeah as a means for extracting
Promises of Addictions and the Perpetual Cycle
01:00:59
Speaker
us.
01:00:59
Speaker
I was at a conference where... where a one of the richest persons in the world was on stage and was giving an address, talking about the nature of how he got to where he was, the shoulders that he stood on, and by all appearances had a narrative that was deeply humble and recognized truths about all that that were deeply in conflict with everything we just said.
01:01:26
Speaker
I stood on the shoulders of people. I owe but i benefited from from people that had built legacies that were bigger than than what I could have done on my own. all i mean I'm hearing some real humility. Yes, directly in conflict with this egocentric, narcissistic, I'm the center of the universe. I do everything. I have a just desert to everything that I create.
01:01:51
Speaker
All of the pieces are there saying like, and then in the next moment when asked the question of, so so how do we then, what what's your dream for where where you want to get to when it comes to exploration and discovery? Well, I need to control that the entire way until people prove to me that they're ah so that they're worthy and that i that I can hand it off.
01:02:17
Speaker
Wow. um and And he's talking about now being the gatekeeper. He's now talking about being the one who who has the power and authority and status to sanction who gets to use that. right Regardless of the fact that he talked about, he stood on the shoulders of people that had built things that were egalitarian and sourced for society, whether that be internet pipes, whether that be interstates.
01:02:43
Speaker
He has, he, he now believes that regardless of the fact that he didn't have to prove his worth, that he didn't have to go through, jump through all those hoops in order to build what he did in order to accrue his wealth, status, and power. Now that he has the wealth, status, and power, it's okay for him to set himself up wow as the arbiter and the autocrat who dictates, who, who denotes, who's going to get to do this. Wow. And only when he's convinced that it's okay for him to step back, will he actually do something different? He will actually do the benevolent thing. He will do the legacy driven thing. He will do the thing that's more in line with the very things that others had done before him. Real pivot there. And and and that's that's the inherent nature of when I, as I watched this on stage and and just- This was all in the same conversation? All the same conversation. Oh, I thought there was time that lapsed. This is all in the same conversation. And I'm just, you know, my hand's going to my forehead and I'm just-
01:03:47
Speaker
the the the degree of delusion that's that's on display here yeah of wanting to hold out this picture of of I'm altruistic and I'm i'm actually legacy focused like the people that came before me that I got to to benefit from. sure But I can't be that right now. That's the picture for me of that sense of you are beholden to the system.
01:04:11
Speaker
yeah you you can only You cannot see past your own reasoning, before past your own rationale. You are enslaved to this inherent the inherent beliefs of narcissism, egocentrism.
01:04:25
Speaker
and And so what are we going to do in order to to break that down? i The natural consequences are going to happen. I think that we start seeing that on a broader cultural scale when we start reaching the fullest versions of that sense of closed system that says more and more people that there is isolation that's occurring.
01:04:49
Speaker
hmm. And when I look at at at men right now and the nature of what we're what we're seeing culturally, what the nature of the conversations we're having with each other, it has nothing to do with the conversations that need to be had, which is around my soul is being crushed. I have lost sight myself myself. I don't know how to discover that.
01:05:14
Speaker
I will surrender to something that is different. That is a possibility. And that is how that I know that I've been a part of those conversations that happen in small pockets. But the concern is, is that there are too many people that are aware of that, but they're not at a point where they can raise their hand. They're, they're doing the exact same thing. This person on stage was doing was saying like,
01:05:36
Speaker
I will rediscover my soul when when these things are proved to me. And it's the same conversations I have with my clients of when did you say you would would surrender to rediscovering yourself? When did you say you would retire? At at at which million would you? And most of them say somewhere between 20 and 50.
01:05:57
Speaker
And they cannot get past the idea of the answer of more. They they can't even they they can't even recognize more. that what they are addicted to is more yeah more, more, more. And that, that is, that's never ending. That is an, that is an endless void. Right. It has not been named that finish line. That's right. It's so interesting because this is, you're describing this. I can kind of understand where the motivation from that comes from and I'm not justifying. I'm not, I'm just, yeah Oh yeah, of course.
01:06:29
Speaker
If you've already proven that you are competent and capable of these things, you created a path to get yourself to that place to develop those tools and those mechanisms. Why wouldn't you want more? But I also understand that without the full...
01:06:45
Speaker
awareness that enough is enough and this is going to be the killer of souls and possibly your your ability to wake up and continue in life i mean this is this really interesting avenue to explore it is the death knell eventually of the closed system itself addiction Addiction has this host dynamic where it takes up residence in that in in the host yeah and and slowly moves them in a direction that either either you find a way for escaping the velocity of the addiction itself, whether that's through the help of individuals, whether that's through relying on the wisdom of others. Or you get to a point and we call this, we, I mean, we, we call it rock bottom. ah sure
01:07:30
Speaker
And, and there's so many different false rock bottoms, right? Like, his is that you, you, you get to a level, you know, like, I, I really hope this changes me. And and you realize, well, no, it was false. You blew through that. And there's, there's another level deeper and there's another level deeper. And we hold out hope that it's not, it's not ultimately, if you can't find a rock bottom, there is the permanent exit. yeah and and and And when you have a closed system, it does have the the the ultimate natural consequence is the demise of the host itself.
01:08:04
Speaker
wow and And I think that's the part that's scary for a lot of people right now is when we talk about the nature of, of well, what's our off ramp for this spiral
Escaping the Cycle of Addiction
01:08:18
Speaker
down?
01:08:18
Speaker
sure As individuals, we say we hope there's someone that intervenes. We hope there's someone that that that helps us get back and starts getting on the path that's more authentic. But when you are addicted to something that says, no, you...
01:08:34
Speaker
that that When you're addicted to something that even tells you, hey, I can get you there. right i will get you there. You just have to keep trusting me. Then then eventually that trust leads you to your own demise.
01:08:48
Speaker
Whether that is the destruction of the self as it is constituted and what we would say is an ego death or it is the death of the body of the host itself, the the biological death. And, and I, and, and those are terrifying to us, but there's something about us. There's something about the, the male psyche that wants to eternally believe in as master of my domain, as fully being self-directed. And independent.
01:09:22
Speaker
And independent yeah is, is that I just need to double down. I just need to work harder. I just need to, to out hustle. Yeah. I need to win more and then i will find freedom. And the message that is increasingly being told, I believe is there will be an incontrovertible argument to you when your entire world falls apart. Yeah.
01:09:47
Speaker
that you cannot ignore. And, and, and this is for me, this goes back to, i use the two phrases, voluntary and involuntary it is that we want to believe that we can voluntarily escape the velocity of our own demise just by finding the right formula by, by out hustling everything that we just said, just being better. And that's more of, that's more of the same.
01:10:10
Speaker
It's just with a different, it's a different shade of, of lipstick. Yeah. The involuntary aspect is is trauma. It is traumatizing others. It is traumatizing self. It is getting to a point where the volume of trauma is big enough to be an advocate against the addiction. Everything that the addiction, the entire world that the addiction has built up, the structure, the stability of it, the the false stability of it crumbles under the weight of a consuming fire.
01:10:44
Speaker
i That the question for me with men is not how we avoid that. It's how we accelerate it. Oh, I didn't expect you to go there. Talk about acceleration. What are the benefits of acceleration? I think the benefits of acceleration is is that if I have things that are dearest to me right now, but I am struggling to see them and and they are not sufficient to get me to change my ways. If I have a loving spouse, if I have a family, if I do like these things are, if my enough is already present,
01:11:18
Speaker
but I can't see it, then I would rather, if I could extract out of wi out that closed system and hit pause on, and I could say, what will it take me to actually change my behavior? yeah What will it take me to, what will it take if the only thing is that consuming fire? If it's that thing like burning up the entire system itself,
01:11:43
Speaker
But what I yield is coming out of that and seeing that I already have enough. It is it has been here the whole time. i lacked the ability to see it. Would I make that choice? Or would I say in order for me to realize that i need the fire actually needs to be losing all of those things?
01:12:03
Speaker
I think most people would say is is that if I had the choice right now, i would rather submit to some event that convinces me That makes me know in my heart of heart that that that this is worth fighting for. My wife is worth fighting. Tiffany is worth fighting for. Autumn, Heidi, Claire, my friends, you, my family, my my community. like This is worth it for me to say no more. Now, I can't reason my way out of that.
01:12:35
Speaker
I can't intellectually get there because my my mind, my my capacities are all subservient to the closed system. right I think that's what men are asking for.
01:12:48
Speaker
I think men are asking for help save me from myself. Oh, wow. Wow. I think we are going to continue talking about the mechanisms. I think we already have started talking about the mechanisms for how we do that.
01:13:01
Speaker
Yeah. I think one of them is we we've talked extensively about eldership and, and surrendering to that nature of connection with other men. I, I think we are working. I mean, if there's any heart to what, what we are doing right now, it is even starting to talk about and acknowledging these things. Hmm. Now, sometimes people want to use acknowledging what's going on or naming what's going on as sufficient to drive the change.
01:13:32
Speaker
and And that's not, that in my experience, that is not, so that it's not sufficient. it To me, it sounds like people conflate the the act of doing something as being busy, as being successful, but they're not making any progress.
01:13:46
Speaker
So between busy and making progress is a huge, huge gap. And I fear that that's what a lot of people confuse. Yeah, yeah, it's it's one of the i mean one of the things I love about cinema.
01:13:57
Speaker
I mean, I spent some time talking about some of the tropes that are like the time tropes, two two predominant time tropes that that are in cinema. Not even just cinema, just just media in general.
01:14:10
Speaker
The first one being the time loop yeah and the second one being the glimpse. And when I think about the glimpse, what is the glimpse? It's the embodied experience of you actually getting to live and experience and feel something that's incontrovertible. So two movies for me.
01:14:27
Speaker
yeah First one being It's a Wonderful Life. yeah Frank Capra film. Everybody
Lessons from It's a Wonderful Life
01:14:31
Speaker
knows it. Yep. George Bailey. um ah Jimmy Stewart. If you actually read the story behind that, that movie, Jimmy Stewart dealing with PTSD coming back from World War II. yeah. he is not acting oh wow he it it is that movie itself was a catharsis for his ptsd wow and and what do you get to see like it's in his glimpse he gets to feel and experience and know a life he gets to know what a life would be like after a consuming fire that's amazing
01:15:09
Speaker
Wow. I didn't know any of that. Everything is ripped away. Everything is gone. Everything he held dear that in those moments that he had lost sight of what was really most important. Yeah. It's ripped away from him. Wow. And you get the catharsis at the end of having it restored.
01:15:26
Speaker
The reverse of that is the movie Family Man with Nick Cade. So I was going to bring this one up as well. It's an obvious choice. Yeah, it is. and and And the reverse of that, why is it a reverse? Is because it's he doesn't get it restored. Correct. He has to now earn it. no way Now he he he gets to he has experienced, he has lived. And I mean, he even says, i know we could go do great things apart, but I've seen what we're what we are together.
01:15:53
Speaker
So great. So great. And, and, and, and it is a you know, as as as a classic of this period of, of, of film where you leave it open ended. Yeah. But, but I love it's open ended because he knows what he wants to fight for. There's no guarantee that he will get it there. Yeah.
01:16:14
Speaker
There is no formula. There is no egocentrism, narcissism that guarantees what that is. Is he willing to risk? It's worth it. Yeah. And he says, yes. Yeah. There are too many men that I run into that, that they don't understand what real strength is yet.
01:16:31
Speaker
Oh man. Wow. Looking in the face of nothing's guaranteed, looking in the face of it requiring tremendous courage to risk going after something that that you cannot control. The autonomy and agency of somebody else, the autonomy and agency of others who have choice in the matter and understanding that you are subject to them choosing to be in relationship with you. That your power, wealth, and status does nothing other than enslave them to their fears of you withholding the means of existing. And that there's so much more on on that that you actually want to risk for. That Nicolas Cage got to see that actually struggle was worth it. yeah yeah and and that's where i think right now men are addicted to an inherent belief inherent beliefs ways of thinking ways of behaving that says i don't even want to con i i don't want to even confront what i am terrified is is that i show up that i risk and i might experience the pain of rejection that i might experience struggle that i might experience these things and my my message
01:17:42
Speaker
to men who are there is, is that that is you choosing to give up your autonomy and agency to
Fear of Failure and Risk Avoidance
01:17:49
Speaker
a system that tells you I can deliver all those things to you is the coward's way out.
01:17:54
Speaker
It's to avoid potential failure as well. Absolutely. So yeah, you're not even trying. Yeah. Which is a harsh message to end on. um it's interesting and i i want to bring up a couple of other movies just to put a finer point on it yes and i think you said it better but again i'm gonna you know belabor this because i talk about movies yes uh we have not talked about the movie click with adam sandler Because it plays out everything you're describing in seeing these things in a glimpse and then also realizing, oh my gosh, what have I done with my life feeding this beast yeah that I don't care about at the end. yeah um But you have to go through that.
01:18:33
Speaker
to recognize it. And then the other one, I mean, to take this a little bit higher brow is to look at the Christmas Carol with Ebenezer Cruz, right? I mean, this is another example of how life could be very, very different and the hardening that we start off seeing Ebenezer in the life that he's created for himself. and um And then there's a change when he recognizes, oh, that could have been me.
01:18:55
Speaker
And we're indoctrinated with these tales, yeah but it just doesn't land in a lot of ways. I think we yeah see it as separate because it's it's on a screen and it's theatric. It's this whole make-believe world. This is kind of what we live with every single day.
01:19:11
Speaker
I think that's that's the picture here is when I when i talk to people who who are saying, I need to do something different. i do it's I hear you. And I have deep compassion for that. I have deep empathy for that. But that is balanced out by an accountability and a sense of justice that that you will not...
01:19:32
Speaker
Find a sense of of recovery and healing until you re-embrace your autonomy and agency. and and for and and And my empathy and compassion comes in in saying, you can't do this on your own.
01:19:47
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I think it's hard for a lot of men to hear yeah message that That's the part that, but then we're just stuck in that close loop. No, I know. I know. That's the part is is that it's it's hard to listen to that. And i sometimes we have to confront the fact that I want to keep believing in the closed system because it feels less risky. There's familiarity there. That's right. Yes. My, what I encourage all of us is, is not to reason our way to action.
01:20:16
Speaker
It's, it's to start taking the action and, and trust that, that the right, the right support cast is, is going to show up. yeah but it starts with embracing the opposites of what the closed system offers it starts with embracing uncertainty it starts with embracing some degree of instability yeah it starts with relinquishing control and And sometimes power.
01:20:42
Speaker
And power. Laying it down. You want to convince me or you want to convince yourself or you want to actually experience a sense of knowing on what true strength and courage looks like, that's where you start.
01:20:55
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
01:21:14
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne Ancestral Alliance.
01:21:30
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.